on someone. youtube also hiding some of the information about followers. these are all subtle cues that the big tech companies rp using to help us be less crazy on mind. >> i think some adults would have more peace of mind. >> touche. >> michael lallen, thank you so much. that does it for us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. the idea that the president of the united states would go to russia to celebrate their military might is absurd and no one was more surprised than joe biden. >> what do you think of the idea of president trump going to moscow for -- >> are you serious? you're kidding me. whoa. >> sir, house republicans -- >> are you joking? >> no. >> oh, the debates are going to be really good.

>> all right. good morning. >> are you joking? >> and welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, right? >> i think it's tuesday. >> only tuesday. we're getting through the week here. along with willie, joe, and me we have steve rattner. along with steve rattner we have eddy glaude junior and gene robinson. good to have you all this morning. >> we may, mika, this democratic race continues to sort of contract and expand -- >> choppy. >> -- very choppy. last week michael bloomberg was -- >> as you said it sort of cracked the, mmrmm, maybe someone else can jump in. >> broke the ice. there had been word a year ago that deval was one of barack obama's favorites and they had been encouraging him to jump in. >> i heard about that in the

past. >> a year ago. but he had looked at it and just decided it wasn't worth it. but a year later, well, willie, suddenly deval patrick and a lot of other people are thinking this race is wide open, why not jump in? and i know there are actually other key democrats who are looking at this every day wondering whether it isn't their time to jump into the race. >> well, yeah. you've even had hillary clinton and people around her, some of them going on tv suggesting she hasn't closed the door. it speaks to and feeds this narrative that the field is weak. we can talk about whether or not that's true, but when you have prominent people like govern far patrick and michael bloomberg and hillary clinton and others saying i'm looking at the field, i know i sid wasn't goiaid i wa get in, but now i'm thinking about it. we've also got new details from the impeachment probe, including

testimony from two witnesses that appears to undercut republicans claim that there was no quid pro quo between president trump and ukraine. but first, that poll now the new hampshire, according to the first quinnipiac for the state, liz warren is at 16%, pete buttigieg is at 15%, bernie sanders has 14% support. is reflective of the "q" poll we saw last week in the state of iowa where we had this cluster, the order was a little different, obviously. joe biden was down in fourth in that state. but all within this group of four, all within four or five points of each other in new hampshire just like they were in iowa last week. >> there's so many things to look at there, willie. first of all, joe biden doesn't look quite so weak sitting at 20% atop the field in new hampshire. we had seen some polls that had elizabeth warren going past. but, you know, several things

stand out. please excuse me. several things stand out there. one, joe biden sort of maintained his footing. two, elizabeth warren had an upward arc that really she was -- >> incredible campaign. >> -- moving forward. she's run a great campaign. really done all of the blocking and tackling, right, that you'd want of this campaign. but right now that momentum at least for now seems to have hit a ceiling. and then you've got mayor pete in third place right there. he's right there in iowa. mayor pete's right there in new hampshire. suddenly, well, a lot of things happening here. it is just an absolute free for all, that seems to be very good news for mayor pete. it also seems to be at least for today good news for joe biden that at least in this one poll he is maintaining a lead, even though it's a very small lead.

>> yeah. so, eddie, i would ask you, like the iowa poll pol, there's a hu group of voters that have not made up their mind. 61% say they could change their mind which leaves room for people to shape of minds of voters. but also people like who pete buttigieg who the country in those states don't know he's well to make some moves there. but when you look at the cluster at the top, elizabeth warren is sitting within the margin of error. bernie sanders well known up there in new hampshire. what do you see in the poll numbers? >> when i look at the poll numbers i make the distinction not so much around individual candidates, but the fissure th within the country. you see the debate. where do we go? do we reach for a much more radical change?

a much more populous move? or do we double down on what we had before? that debate, to my mind, is evident to those numbers. fact that 61% of new hampshire voters are undecided suggests to me that they're trying to make a decision where they're going to fall in that divide. >> and we've got a bunch of time to make that decision. meanwhile, more than half of new hampshire's democratic primary voters say they would not consider backing mayor mike bloomberg if he were to run. 54% according to the latest quinnipiac poll. 37% said they would consider voting for him. just 2% said i would definitely vote for him. mayor bloomberg also the second choice among 9% of biden voters, 2% of buttigieg supporters, 1% of warren's and none of sanders. you have some evidence where bloomberg said he's going to skip those first four states with eyes on super tuesday. >> steve rattner, we need to let everybody know when you're not managing willie and my dog track

earnings. >> oh, yes. >> yeah, and scratcho-off tickets, that's enough to keep any man or woman busy, that you're also managing michael bloomberg's money. we're fine with that as long as it doesn't get in the way of your primary job with us. but, you know, you look at this data from new hampshire, look at a lot of other data out there, and i don't know that -- i mean, you know, the famous saying, in god we trust all others provide data. that doesn't really apply to politics, does it? michael bloomberg's always looking for data. data did not support donald trump's rise to the white house and it hasn't supported other people's rise to the white house. is there a chance that he may run this race even if the numbers don't seem to support him up front? >> well, yes, you're right, one

of mike bloomberg's phrases is in dpod we trugod we trust all brings data. it's a process for him to look at politics, while there's lots and lots of data you can't depend on it and even if you did depend on it so much of it could change. he's been through this three times before. he was elected mayor three times in new york, in the first case certainly with everybody saying this was impossible and that was crazy. so this is not his first rodeo when it comes to deciding whether to enter a political race without a lot of tangible support to say that his chances are very, very high. and, of course, that's true of virtually everybody who enters a political race. very few people enter with any real confidence or conviction that the data says that they have a hugely high percentage chance of winning. >> and then there's deval patrick, the former massachusetts governor and the reporting is that he's considering a late entry into

the 2020 race for the white house, less than three months before iowa. "the new york times" reports that patrick has confided in some democratic officials that he doesn't think any of the current candidates have established political momentum and thinks there is an opening for someone who can unite both liberal and moderate voters, according to democrats who have spoken to him. the times notes that he began reaching out to staffers yesterday and democrats from his home state have started to contact prominent party leaders in early voting states to alert them that he may run. this is fascinating in many ways, but are these the voters that, perhaps, the democratic party needs to worry about when it comes to beating trump? >> well, the democratic party needs to worry about all voters when it comes to beating trump. >> yes. >> but, you know, i want to unite the liberal and moderate

wings of the party. that's what kamala harris wants to do, that's what cory booker wants to do, that's what they've been out there trying to do for months. and you've got to say objectively they haven't gotten very far. and you look at those poll numbers that we showed at the beginning and as eddie said, you do see a liberal wing and a moderate wing of the party. i tend to think that the nominee's going to come from one of those wings. i mean, and the party will probably get behind whoever it is. but, you know, i've written, i think, so far i've written two columns asking, you know, when is the utter biden collapse going to happen? it keeps getting predicted and it hasn't happened. he continues to lead the polls. and he continues to have his south carolina firewall after iowa and new hampshire.

so, you know, that's the one thing about the shape of this race that really hasn't changed a whole lot. and i don't know that deval patrick's entry, i know that he's a favorite of a lot of the obama people, but i don't know that his entry is going to change that basic dynamic. >> you know, eddie, govern far patrick close friends with president obama, bunch of the advisers they shared over the years. he was with president obama a few weeks ago. and he's a tv commentator right now and an analyst and he's been on television behind closed doors saying i've always believed joe biden's support is soft. he's been waiting for him to collapse. he's saying outloud, i don't think he's a strong front runner. do you think he'll get in and what kind of difference he would make if he did? >> i think we need to put a pin on this, that bloomberg and deval patrick and all the murmuring suggests that a particular segment of the democratic party is worried about joe biden. they're concerned that he cannot

in some way carry forward, win the nomination and move forward and beat donald trump. i think their concern is about the left wing or the progressive side of the party, whether or not what does that mean for the democrats and whether or not they can actually beat donald trump. it seems to me that deval patrick, if he enters, he still ma faces the same problem that cory booker faces, that kamala harris faces, that joe biden face, all of them face this civil war within the party. will deval patrick be able to speak to young people? will he be able to speak to black women? will he be able to speak to this desire to speak to income equality? will he be able to speak to a desire for a different future or will he double down on the normal that was before donald trump? unless he can offer a vision of moving forward, he will fall into the same trap. i'm going to echo eugene here. i don't think he's going to in some ways change the divide that

we're seeing in primary right now. >> one of the things that's interesting about deval patrick, i had two dinners with him early in the process with a small group when he was thinking about doing this. he gave it a lot of thought and decided not to. i don't think it was because the field was too big or biden was going to win or this person was going to do that, but more about personal considerations about his family and his life and he's doing some interesting i investigating up in boston. so something what's changed in that sense. but look, the problem is it's really really late for someone to get in unless you have financial resources. how do you raise this money? how do you get on the ballots. alabama was last week. new hampshire is next week -- >> it's friday. >> it's friday this week. as a pure practical matter, i don't see how someone else gets in at this stage. >> agree. i just wonder, eddie, it is a, quote, civil war inside the democratic party or if you just don't have the candidate yet that is able to unite both

factions the way barack obama was able to do in 2008, the way that bill clinton was able to do in 1992. the way -- you know, ronald reagan was always held by republicans as being able to synthesize the two sides of the republican party, bring them together as one. i wonder whether it's ideological or i wonder whether they're thereju there just isn't a candidate out there yet with the political skills that can speak to both sides of this party. >> you know, joe, that's a good question. i think it might be both and. i think it's very much the case that the democratic electorate in this cycle is really -- i think they're interested in the substance of political positions. of course, politics has everything to do with the charisma of the candidate, everything to do with the candidate's ability to speak clearly and convincingly to the electorate. but i think the country faces

such serious challenges in this moment that from what i'm hearing on the ground, the substantive issues matter as much as the person. so i think you're right that we, perhaps, need someone to step into that divide. but they're going to have to step into that divide with substance. so even if reagan, as much as i disagree with him. even if reagan could speak to both sides there are was an ideological ballast to who he was and to what he stood for and then brought folk together. i think somebody has to step into that particular lane and be able to bridge both of them, i think, joe. >> all right. let's turn to the impeachment proceedings which actually entered the public phase yesterday. a very big day. but the president's acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney who we've been asking where is he, he's backed away from an effort to join a lawsuit over the impeachment probe. mulvaney's attorneys have withdrawn the request to be part of a lawsuit filed by john bolton's former deputy charles

kupperman who has asked a court to determine whether he can testify. according to "the new york times," mulvaney's reversal came just hours after a lawyer for altman and kirpmupperman arguedt he wanted nothing to do with mulvaney because they had vastly different interests. as the times points out, mulvaney was among those facilitating the ukraine effort while bolton was among those objecting to it. not only did the motion filed by bolton and kupperman's attorney try to keep mulvaney out of the lawsuit, it advanced an argument that mulvaney may have to testify in the impeachment probe. the motion specifically notes that mulvaney appeared to admit that there was a quid pro quo during a white house briefing last month, meaning are he may not be able to defy a subpoena by democrats since he's already discussed the matter publicly. mulvaney signaled last night

that he will file his own lawsuit challenging his congressional subpoena. and that's where i have a question for former u.s. attorney and msnbc barbara mcquade. could this go on forever? can they subpoena him and then he counter, i guess, pushback by filing a lawsuit against the subpoena? could this be endless? will we ever hear from mick mulvaney? >> i think one of the things that the congressional democrats have saw t sought to do is reduce that strategy of endless lawsuits. one thing we saw was they withdrew the subpoena they served on charles kupperman. that lawsuit that mulvaney was seeking to join is now mute and ought to be dismissed. what i think the democrats are doing is trying to end that endless stream of lawsuits and put all their eggs into the mcgahn basket. and that happened after they had the court hearing where the judge in that case seemed to

indicate sympathy toward their position. so if they can get a favorable ruling in the mcgahn case, they can wave that around as precedent to compel all of the others to testify. i think that's the strategy. >> barbara, there was hope that john bolton would come forward and tell the truth about what he knew. a lot of skepticism yesterday after reports came out that he may have signed a multimillion dollars book deal. will we see john bolton testify in congress or is he just going to play this out and delay it as long as possible? >> i don't know. i think if there's a favorable ruling in the mcgahn case he may be compelled and we'll see him to do it. but i agree with you, i think it's disgusting that someone who say public servant and who obtained information in his employment on behalf of the people is selling that story rather than share it with the public at a time when it's necessary. >> there are people sharing their stories beginning tomorrow, bill taylor and marie

yovanovitch. from your prosecutor's seat, what does that do to this process when the public gets to hear the voices of these people? we've heard their voices through transcripts, of their depositions, of their closed testimony. ha does it me what does it mean it have them seated in a chair saying some of the things they that they said in private? >> i think it could be incredibly compilg pellielling. what they have to say is incredibly damaging to president trump. they talk about the fact that it is crystal clear that this was an exchange and a leverage of military aid in exchange for political favor for president trump. that marie yovanovitch, who was a dedicated career public servant was removed because she was perceived as an obstacle to a corrupt scheme. when those are seen on tv and social media, it becomes harder to ignore than just the printed

word. if it permeates the national consciousness, it should be a wroo real wakeup call to the american public. >> and jim jordan was removed. what does that tell you about the way republicans plan on handling the public phase of this inquiry? >> jim jordan is the attack dog. i had a chance to testify in the summer about the obstruction of justice issue. i saw him ask questions. he is just full-on attack mode. he wants ton steal the cameras and the spotlight in hopes of distracting the public from the facts here by undermining the quest for the truth. but i think it does suggest fear and weakness on the part of the republicans, you know, when you don't have the facts on your side, you instead seek to undermine the messenger. and i think that's what jim jordan's role is going to be here. >> and those open hearings begin tomorrow.

you'll see them live on msnbc. barbara mcquade also wins best backdrop of the morning with the big house over her shoulder. >> thank you. still ahead, the supreme court is set again to defer the daca program. we will speak with janet napolitano who signed the directive aimed at protecting the dreamers. plus, the number two in the senate, dick durbin joins us. but first, bill karins has a check on the forecast. >> that was a perfect backdrop because michigan is where all the horrible weather was. 8 inches of snow. broke the all time november snowest day record. that start is continuing to push to the east coast. one of those big days where it changes. you wake up in the morning, it's warm and mild and then the temperatures goring to cra temperatures are going to crash. you will see snow around the

lunch hour or so and right now it's in the capital district and northern turning in. yesterday it was horrible in the midwest and great lakes. today we'll have possible delays. not so many cancellations. the rain and snow is not a big deal but it will get windier this afternoon. how about the wind chills. it feels like negative 8 walking out the door in chicago. it's chicago so at least you're kind of used to that in the winter. but dallas has a wind chill of 10. houston at 26. that's the cold air that the sweep to the east coast. the warm temperatures in the 40s and 50s early on the eastern seaboard, then the cold air moves in. chicago, a 21 for the high today. 34 in new york. that will be our first little taste of winter in the big apple. not a big snow day in new york city, although i think we'll have our first flakes there on the rockefeller christmas tree and the ice rink below. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ow. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. mini is a different kind of car.

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all right. live look at the white house. the sun has yet to come up over washington. it's 26 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." gene's got a piece out, willie, looking at the republicans who still, still defend president trump. >> yeah. there are a lot of them. gene's latest column entitled rank partisan solidarity is all of trump's defenders have left. basically all the president's defenders have left. they complain that the house had not taken a formal vote to proceed with impeachment, but then the house held such a vote. they complained that the house impeachment investigators were taking depositions of witnesses in secret, but republican committee members already had access to those hearings. they complained that the transcripts of those interviews had not been released, but now they're being released. you will note that all of the above arguments have to do with

process, not substance. but, if the entire gop caucus puts party before duty, so be it. if republicans in congress fail do their jobs, voters will have to do it for them. had is not a moment to calculate the political odds, it's a moment to do the right thing. gene, what gives you any confidence at this point given what we've seen over the last few weeks of republicans defending and inventing conspiracy theories to defend president trump that that will change as we see these public hearings this week? >> i don't have a lot of confidence that that will change. i mean, you know, as we said, they don't have the facts on their side. they don't have the law on their side. jim jordan will do the pouting of the table, which is the third alternative. but that won't have a whole lot of impact. and so in the end, it will just be, you know, we stick together in spite of the fact, in spite of the law, and in spite of the fact that it's very clear even

from the rough transcript or summary of that conversation that the white house released that the president committed the statutory crime of bribery, you know, just right there in the open. it's right there. and so i can't have a lot of confidence. you never know what's going to happen once, you know, i do believe the president will be impeached and you don't know what will happen in the senate if new even more compelling evidence comes out. but in the end, the house of representatives is acting here not as house democrats, it's acting as the house of representatives. they have a constitutional responsibility here. the speaker of the house has -- is in the constitution. so this is the actual body proceeding on a constitutional process. and so if it -- if it happens

that no republicans join in, that's just the way it is. but if republicans won't do their duty, that's just the way it is. >> so, gene, it seems to me to one way to take the argument of your column is the rot goes all the way down. it's not just donald trump, it goes all the way down. the question i have for you is given that that may be the case, on one reading of your piece, and it follows from that that the republicans, given their tribal commitments, partisan commitments, will act in bad faith as we've seen, how, then, should the democrats proceed when you have the actors, the people who were supposeably hold the same constitutional responsible supposed to animate this process? >> they have to work on two fronts. right now it's impeachment. there's the legal constitutional front and they have to act on

the political front as well. in terms of the impeachment process, they just have to go by the book. they have to -- they have to bring out these public witnesses and let people hear what they have to say. and then proceed if the evidence warrants to an impeachment vote and send it over to the senate. and if they don't get any republican votes, they don't get any republican votes. on the political front, you know, i think you saw a bit of what democrats should continue to do last week in the virginia elections, actually, in the off off-year elections. the republican party has been so successful, the sort of base of the pyramid of all the solidarity we're seeing in congress really comes from the republican success at the grassroots level in state and local elections across the country. there was a period when they

took away state houses, they took away governorships that had been held by democrats for a long time. they built the base of the pyramid and now that is very clearly being eroded away and taken away by democratic grassroots organizing and politicking. and it's clearly happening. and so that, over time, i think is going to have a major impact on how republicans in congress view their responsibility or those who are left. because so many are retiring. but that's all i can see the democrats can do. they can do their job on impeachment and they can do their job at the grassroots. >> all right, gene, we'll be reading your column in the "washington post.." meanwhile, joe and mika, sad news to report this morning. it's over for sean spicer on dancing with the stars. >> stop it. >> it came to an end last night.

>> no. >> captured the hearts of a nation. it ended last night. he was voted off "dancing with the stars ". now here's the interesting part of the story. as you know, president trump has been supporting sean spicer. he tweeted again last night before the voting go out and vote for sean spicer, he's a great and very loyal guy who's working very hard. >> that's good. so he -- okay, so -- >> full support. >> he's sticking by him. >> with him all the way. >> so maybe everything we've ever said about trump is wrong. maybe -- maybe he is loyal in good times and, willie, even in bad times. >> well -- >> well that before or after he tweeted, like, the advertisement for nikki haley's book? i can't remember? >> i don't know the chronology of that. >> let's stay on one story. >> sean spicer got the support of the president of the united states. >> yeah, that's great. >> then he was voted off. the president of the united states went back and deleted his tweet of support. >> no. >> for sean spicer, not wanting

to be associated with a man who would lose on "dancing with the stars ". he tweeted this instead, great job, we are all proud of you. perhaps a great example of the met for, he's got your back until he doesn't. >> spicy, we hardly knew you. i guess, i don't know, didn't sean early on say they didn't want him to survive because he was a christian and they had prayer chains and stuff like that going on? is this going to -- is this a condemnation of the prayer -- like what happens now? >> i don't know. >> because it's kind of like field goal kicking. it's like they pray to kick a field goal and, i don't know, i'm just thinking, jesus has more important things to worry about than whether a pigskin goes through two sticks. it's sort of same thing with dancing with the stars, right? is this a condemnation of

hollywood now? is this a war on spicy? a war on christmas? say war on middle america? i hope not. >> i just hope you and i from the outset when we liquidated our children's college funds to lay that bet on vander beak. >> it was hard. the only line defined for "dancing with the stars" that paid willie and me back, mozam beak's off-track betting. that was a long flight. but i love dawson's creek, mika, i love dawson's creek that much it was worth it, right? >> you do have to place all your bets in person, but i think it's going to pay off. >> you do. you just -- [ laughter ] >> okay. >> mika, thanks for off track.

>> question stop talking about this now? >> we're not -- if you're talking about dawson's creek, you are never off track. >> it's always good to take a break from everything that's going on. by the way, coming up on "morning joe," jeffrey goldberg -- >> wasn't joey on dawson's creek? >> joey? >> no. >> we have a first look at the new cover of atlantic magazine. it's going to be a good one. how to stop a civil war. >> good. coming right back. >> we need to know that. we to i am the twistg lo.

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all right. >> so, willie, of course -- >> it's 40 past the hour. >> the theme from dawson's creek, it was played by. >> katy holmes. >> which is one of the reason we flew to mozambique. we didn't know if she was going to be placing a bet on dancing

with the stars, maybe thought we'd see her get an autograph. didn't work out that way. but i watched -- when i was going through a difficult time i watched dawson's creek all day. i would sit in front of the tv. >> but that was a cast by the way. >> joshua jackson was on that show. >> yeah. >> incredible cast. >> i think i'm going to do that in the off-season after the sox got eliminated. mika will tell you, i binged, i would like elvis, i put aluminum foil on the windows. i was locked in my room for about a week and a half. it's a great show. >> crying into a pillow. >> and you didn't shoot the tv -- >> no, did he not do that. not this time. >> well, not the second one. >> it was a different thing. joining us now, the editor and chief of the atlantic magazine, jeffrey goldberg. >> also a huge dawson's creek fan. >> yes, he is. >> huge. >> big time. >> huge.

>> he's here with the december issue of the atlantic magazine, it has a fresh new design and a special cover entitled how to stop a civil war. jeffrey, in your piece entitled a nation coming apart, you write in part this, the 45th president of the united states is uniquely unfit for office and poses a multifaceted threat to our country's democratic institutions. yet, he might not represent the most severe challenge facing our country. the structural fail nurs oures democratic system that allowed a grifter into the white house in the first place. this might be our gravest challenge. or perhaps it's the tribalization of our politics brought about by pathological inequalities, upheaval, and the tenacious persistence of racism. or maybe, it is that we, as a people, no longer seem to know who we are or what our common

purpose jeffrey, were the subject any less important we here being as shallow as we are might be distract and talk about the sharp new design of the atlantic. congratulations on that. >> say something flip. >> it's beautiful. >> it is beautiful. but we also -- we are talking about how to avoid a civil war. so obviously very provocative cover, very provocative topic. you do have people -- you had a major league baseball umpire talking about buying military-style assault weapon and starting a civil war if donald trump was impeached. obviously there's talk on the right of this. but talk about -- talk about why you chose such a provocative topic. >> the atlantic was founded in 1857 to bring about an end to slavery and also to find the

common purpose in american life, to sort of ask what is the american idea? so we have a long history and kind of a mandate from history to explore these questions. now, none of us is saying that this period right now resembles the 1850s because we know what happened in the 1860s, obviously. but, there does seem to be this kind of split, this kind of mutual contempt. jim mattis famously says that, you know, americans seem to be losing affection for one another. and this undergirds a lot of things we talk about day to day. we have one piece -- there's a lot of different interesting pieces in this issue, but we have one piece in here that orgs th argues that we've never before in history seen a successful transition droos democraemocrac multicultural democracy. we're facing big issues and i do

think they go deeper than donald trump. he's a symptom as much as a cause. and the problems will outlast donald trump. >> well, you led me to my next question, jeffrey, which was when donald trump leaves office, whether it's in 14 months or five years or so, what comes after? i think a lot of people have been asking themselves that question. how do you stitch back together all the fissures that as you say were there but were cast out into the open with donald trump over the last four years? how do you start to put this back together? >> well, the key question, right, the key question is does the next president try to be a uniter or divider? we've really never had a divider like trump in the modern era, a person who really doesn't understand that he represents all of the american people and has to take into account the feelings of people who don't support him. so the key question or one of the key questions is, do we -- do we keep swinging in this kind

of bipolar way or the next president someone who actually pays lip service to the idea that american unity is a prewreckpr prerequisite for american success. i don't know the answer to that. >> congratulations on what i think will be an extraordinary issue of the atlantic. i'm really thinking about the claim that this isn't just simply donald trump, our problem isn't just donald trump. in some ways we have been dealing with this since the black freedom struggle since the mid 20th century and how what has come out of that movement have metastasize and we find ourselves in a cold civil war. so how to stop the civil war is one question, but we're in the midst of a cold civil war now. and i'm get together question. what it intends is this kon

constitutional and norm erosion. in the midst seems to be fraying at the edges, actually at its core. how some are of these contributors addressing this institutional dimension of the crisis that we face? >> right. well, i mean, one of the things -- we've talked about this on this show before -- is the challenge that this era poses to james madison's conception of how american democracy should work. madison back in day was extremely worried about the rise of the daily newspaper. he was worried that people were going to get too much information too quickly and therefore not make regional logical decisions about governance. now we're just swimming in a sea of information, bad information, true information, untrue information, our defenses are becomi becoming overwhelmed by this.

he believed that presidents shouldn't be in direct contact with the american people. so we have that. we have all kinds of things. we have gerrymandering. we have a primary system that rewards the more, let's say, enthusiastic corners of parties rather than look toward the middle to try to figure out what do. and we address all of these issues in this special issue. but we are right now, think, at the point many this discussion where we're barely even addressing these manifestations of breakdown. we are very, very early in the process of figuring out how to fix all this stuff. >> jeffrey, it's steve rattner. we all look at this through our own lens. the lens i look at that time through is really looking at the economic state of the country and what's been happening in the last 20, 30 years, which is to say massively rising income inequality, unbelievable numbers

of people getting left behind, black, white or any other ethnicity. declining ream wages for people in the manufacturing center, they're living worse off than they were 20 years ago. you've got children coming out of college with massive amounts of student debt and facing an uncertain financial and economic future for themselves. and so it seems to me that we're not going to solve these institutional problems unless we solve the underlying problem, which is for the government to deliver to the american people what they bargained for, which was a country in which they can look ahead to making more money than their parents, having a better life than their parents, and being able to live comfortably. so it seems to me government has to function first before government can operate the way madison or anybody else thought it should. >> well, right. one prerequisite for national success is to have some faith in a government that works. and i agree with you that the economic piece is important, i'll get to that in one second. but there are these cultural and

political pieces are hugely important as well. but on the economic front, for instance we have the great author of educated in this issue talking about the rural urban dhiefd is as important as any other divide. she talks about her part of idaho where there's no new businesses in the town near where she grew up. there's just funeral homes. and, you know, there's no money in these vast parts, vast swaths of america, that these are parts of america that never recovered from the recession. and sob what y what you to is l people's immunities to demagogs when you don't address core underlying issues. people lose faith in america to make their lives better and their children's lives ber, ttt you're going to be open to all kinds of ideas and you've got an internet that brings those ideas right into your bedroom. >> all right.

>> i was going to ask about that. the ability to organize across the country from someone's basement to create just false narratives that people are more likely to latch on to, that seems like a challenge not only for us this year, that seems like a challenge for the next generation. and you just wonder at what point do the googles and do the facebooks and the other -- the other companies bear a responsibility in the spread of this hatred, the spread of this filth, this ideology that's undermining america? by the way, i'm talking about on the extreme left, on the extreme right, and even -- even in non ideological ways. >> right. look, i'm not saying that every leader of a tech company should be forced to read the federalist

papers, although i believe that every leader of a tech company should be forced to read the federalist papers. but we're all part of a vast unregulated experiment. we didn't vote on this experiment, we didn't vote to join this experiment in social media and the rapid da fusiiffuf information. this experiment is being run out of eight or ten counties out of california and they don't have enough knowledge to understand the impact of their technologies and the impact on even our cognition, much less our democracy for the things that they're doing. so all of these problems, all of these things that are breaking down, the trust that's breaking down, these are exacerbated by systems that have been put in place by people who never really thought about the kweconsequenc they're putting in place. >> and so many of those people who those, let's say, 20 or 30 people who were shaping not only

american civilization, but civilization of the world, so many of them don't even allow their own children to have devices inside of their homes because they understand just how corrosive that information can be. just how corrosive those devices can be to the learning of their own children. >> yeah. there you go. jeffrey goldberg, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. >> check out the latest issue of the atlantic magazine. >> i do -- >> -- how to stop a civil war. >> i'll be shallow. i do love the design. >> the design's amazing and this magazine is amazing as well. >> mozambique today has a similar dezblien it does. still ahead, we have an update on the health of former president jimmy carter. he's in the hospital right now ahead of of a procedure this morning. we'll have the latest on that. "morning joe" will be right back. latest on that. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ born to be wild... born to be wild...♪

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it's a few minutes before

the top of the hour. we want to update you on a few breaking stories. former president jimmy carter is in the hospital right now. he's scheduled to undergo a procedure this morning according to the carter center. the 95-year-old was admitted to emery hospital in atlanta last night for a surgery to relief pressure on his brain caused by bleeding from recent falls. the longest living president in american history has suffered several setbacks, health setbacks as of late, including a broken hip and a fractured pelvis, none of which have appeared to slow him down in any way. just one day after that fall last month resulted in 14 stitches, carter appeared at habitat for humanity project in nashville eager to lend a hand. prayers are with the carter family this morning. also, maryland democratic party chairwoman mia roccamore

cummings announced yesterday that she will be running for the seventh congressional seat previously held by her late husband, elijah cummings. she plans to kick off her campaign today and will focus on key issues such as the opioid crisis, healthcare, and education. she will also resign her seat as chairwoman of the state democratic party to avoid any appearances of favoritism. she told the baltimore sun that she is, quote, devastated at the loss of my spouse but his spirit is with me. i'm gone going run this race and run it hard as if he's still right here by my side. there will, however, be a speed bump to the start of her campaign. this friday she'll be kwetingge preventive double mastectomy. our best wishes to her on both fronts. our prayers for her health, that's an incredibly difficult procedure but obviously

necessary. and, of course, our heart is with her during this difficult time. what a decision. >> yeah. >> to done. >> a tough decision but obviously there were a lot of people when we were in baltimore at the funeral, a lot of people were talking about how they hoped that she would actually jump into the race. >> did i, yeah. >> i did, yeah. >> a lot of people in baltimore very happy. still with willie, joe and me we have steve rattner and eddie glaude jr. and joining the conversation this hour, former republican strategist steve schmidt joins the table. chris lu is with us. and washington bureau chief for usa today susan page joins the table as well. we've got a lot going on. the impeachment inquiry stepping up but a lot of politics as well. >> the public hearings begin tomorrow, but yesterday we got

the latest testimony released in the impeachment inquiry. and building on the evidence that president trump sought political favors from ukraine in whi exchange for military aid. the administration directed them to freeze the aid over the summer. when officials learned about it, quote there are was not an understanding of how this could legally play out. she told lawmakers about a conversation about the then u.s. envoy to ukraine kurt volker that the aid would be released if they issued a statement disavowing any involvement. and captain kroft also released yesterday struck at the heart of the republican claim that there could not have been a quid pro quo because ukraine did not know that the aid was being withheld. cooper told lawmakers, quote, i know from my kurt volker conversation and also from sort

of the alarm bells that were coming from ambassador william taylor and his team that there were ukrainians who knew about this. and kroft told lawmakers she received two separate calls over the summer from alarmed ukrainian diplomats asking why the aid had been frozen before it was publicly reported? she testified i remember being very surprised at the effectiveness of niu cran yan partners trade craft as in to say they found out very early on or much earlier than i expected them to. so, steve schmidting th, this underscores a "new york times" report that ukraine knew earlier in the summer that this military aid was on hold. one of the arguments that we expect to hear from republicans in these open hearings is on that july 25th phone call zelensky didn't know that the aid was being held. that's patently untrue based on the documents that we've seen. >> i think what we're going to see when we begin to s of corrun

unprecedented in its magnitude and its severity. what we see is the president of the united states extorting a foreign head of state, withholding congressionally approved military assistance to a nation that has a hot war with the russians on the eastern front for the purposes of getting dirt on the president's political opponent. there has never been in the entire post world war ii period of history from truman through obama until trump, there has never been an act of corruption by an american president quite like this. it is -- >> wait a second. >> it is extraordinary and severe -- >> hold on. steve schmidt. >> yeah. >> i'm confused 'the i'm very confused the i'm sorry to

interrupt you, it's not like me to do that. >> no. no, sir. >> you say this is the first time this has ever happened, and yet republicans our former party, members of our former party are going on tv telling americans that this happens all the time. this is what presidents do. what would you say to those republicans who are lying to the american public, who are suggesting that every president before the 45th was just as corrupt as donald j. trump? >> well, i would say to them like i would say to my young teenagers, stop it. stop. stop lying. seriously. i mean, we have a -- we have a situation where we see the national security of the united states, which is an threa threa

compromised over the president's political interest. we keep using the terms quid pro quo and i wish everybody would stop, because the american people don't understand what quid pro quo means. we don't teach latin in our schools anymore. what this was was an extortion attempt. this was a shakedown by our dime store nemuzzilini in the oval office who the ukraine is expecting help to fight, is being shook down by the president of the united states to get dirt on a political opponent. there has never been, never been an act of corruption as significant as this by an american president not in the 20th or the first two decades of

the 21st sent trcentury. are fs at stake. when you see the president shaking down a foreign head of state to launch a criminal investigation against a u.s. citizen who he has sworn to expect, we are in uncharted territory. and the behavior of the republicans in congress, apologize for this. >> yeah. >> it's unspeakable. >> so, chris, witness after witness after witness has sat in a deposition room, has sat in the scif in the basement of the capital and provided what steve just laid out. he makes a top line claim about what he saw. they're telling this story again and again and again and what we're expecting to hear, we're getting some wind d getting some window into their strategy. it's basically echoing the president's claims. read the transcript.

it's all in that first transcript. it's perfect, et cetera, et cetera. obviously they've all been blown up by evidence and testimony from these witnesses. >> sure. >> but they're going to ride president trump through this process. >> well, that's exactly right. i think the goal for democrats is just to keep this very simple. you know, let's contrast this with watergate. watergate finally ended when nixon released the smoking gun tape. the smoking gun tape was the transcript of the july 25th call. so from day one we have known the broad outlines half this looks like. with each one of these depositions, each one of these testimony's you've been filling in a puzzle of a jigsaw puzzle. the caution i would say to democrats is this, all this around the table know every minutia of this story. the vast majorities of the people have not been paying attention. there are a lot of meetings and phone calls and names. so adam schiff and his committee tomorrow have a big advantage. first of all, we know the depositions are out there so no one's going to be surprised. because of the way the rules have been changed, the democrats

will have 45 minutes of uninterrupted questions. between bill taylor's 15 minute opening probably, 45 minutes of opening questions, that's one hour to tell a coherent story. and that will be crucial because that's really where the american people will be focused. there will be a lot of histrionics and game playing. just ignore that, tell a coherent story to the american people. >> we want to get the latest on this nikki haley story which is getting more interesting by the day. former united nations ambassador nikki haley is defending her claim that two of president trump's highest level cabinet members attempted to undermine his administration from within. haley reiterated her story that former chief of staff john kelly and secretary rex tillerson tried to rope her in and she told trump about their plans. >> why did you not feel or did you at any point feel a need to tell the president, hey, this is what these guys are doing?

>> well i did tell the president. i mean, keep in mind, sean there is one page out of 250 pages of the book. but did i tell the president. and i did tell the national security adviser h.r. mcmaster. there were others that knew of my concerns in the process. let's keep in mind, i mean, what i have said is this wasn't that these guys thought this was a rogue president. this was that these guys disagreed with his policy. >> you know, so -- >> wow. that is so -- >> there's one way to actually verify whether nikki haley actually told the president that his chief of staff was running effectively a coup against him or not, and that the secretary of state was in effect conducting a coup against him or not, and that is to check his twitter feed. because that's what we've learned from donald trump, if we've learned anything from donald trump -- >> he doesn't have a filter. >> he doesn't play the long

game. >> no. >> so are we to believe that a cabinet member went to the president of the united states, this 45th president in particular, and said, you know what? just so you know, your secretary of state and chief of staff are running a coup against you and they're trying to undermine everything you do, mr. president. donald trump said, mmrmm, you know what? i'm going to let this bake in the oven a little bit. no! he doesn't work that way. he would have tweet it before she left the office. so, yes -- >> i'm so surprised at nikki haley. >> but let's see what rex tillerson said. >> well, he adamantly denies that he worked to undercut president trump's agenda. and in a statement to the "washington post," susan page, tillerson wrote in part this. at in time did i nor do to my direct knowledge serving along with me take any actions to undermine the president.

my conversation with the president in the privacy of the oval office will always be candid and frank and my recommendations straightforward. he goes on to add that, quote, ambassador haley was rarely a participate in many meetings and is not in a position to know what i may or may not have said to the president. susan page, you're on this story about nikki haley. what the heck is going on here and why is she doing this? >> this does not seem like the picture of a happy family, i gotta say, with the back and forth between nikki haley and rex tillerson and also john kelly who also issued a statement that in effect says he was trying to do the right thing in providing kind of stable advice to president trump. i think we see this dysfunctional administration in action where nikki haley and rex tillerson did not yet along, that's pretty clear in her book. the picture she portrays of a

meeting where they said they were trying to save the country by -- by controlling some of president trump's ideas that they saw as most misguided, that's pretty consistent with what we know was going on with this administration. >> yeah. >> but whether she told the president and what she told him, that's not clear. in her book, which comes out today, she does not say that she told president trump about this meeting with tillerson. >> that seems to be -- >> so that's a big question that needs to be asked. >> that seems to be a gaping hole in the book. and in the story. and it doesn't make any sense. willie geist -- >> it makes sense, willie, if you are -- >> if you made it up. >> -- aiming to be donald trump's vice president next year. >> also, willie, she said in her interviews to the book, i think it was to 60 minutes, you know, making these complaints about these two gentlemen, if you don't like it quit, well i believe along been secretary mattis they all have.

they're all not there. >> yeah. >> and that's -- i'm glad susan pointed that out. she did not say in the book that she went to the president with these concerns. i think she was put on the spot last night by sean hannity and she had to um cup with the answer and say, yes, i was the hero who thwarted the coup attempt against the president. i was listening while she was angling for a position on the ticket, she's trying to be president in 2024. i said, let's stop the brakes for a second. she's alleging that the secretary of state and john kelly were initiating some kind of a coup against the president of the united states and as she said herself, kind of kisses it off after one page. >> well, look, i think when we look back to the early days of this administration where where he were still shocked by all of the chaos, by the travel ban, by all of it, by all of the irregularities, that we see a former marine corps four-star general, former ceo of example

son trying example exxon and following the procedures and relying on the expertise, i don't view that as a coup. but i find her statements not particularly credible. i think they speak to her ambition and i think mike pence is probably hang out back there, thinking, hey, i got 1 in 365 chance in picking the day that trump's going to dump me from the ticket and put her on sometime in the next year. that's what this is all about. >> and, by the way -- >> it's about currying favor. she wants to be vice president. she wants to be vice president on the republican ticket in 2020. and i think there's an overwhelming chance that trump will dump pence. >> really? why do you say that? >> -- to put nikki haley on the picket. because he has an enormous problem with suburban women in

particular. he's entirely tractinsactional. when you look at the politics of it, she would serve his immediate political interests in a way that pence can't. i would suggest that he's going to be gone and she'll be in. and think this book's about that. >> and she does in the book hug closely president trump saying i'm the one who backed him getting out of the paris climate accords, getting out of the iran nuclear deal and on and on and on. so let's turn to some democratic politics. a new pin quinnipiac poll out of new hampshire shows former vice president joe biden narrowly leading the field at 20% support. senator elizabeth warren is at 16%. mayor pete buttigieg is at 15% and senator bernie sanders has 14% support. what do you see in this report that's reflective of iowa last week. you have four in this cluster up

at the top, slightly different order. >> i see a wide open race. i see pete buttigieg peaking at the exactly the right time. it's when barack obama peaked in 2007. so he's hitting at the right time. but i see a field that's very unsettled right now if the would not be surprising to see perhaps three candidates win those first four early states. then it becomes a free for all when you look at the primary calendar of the first super tuesdays. it does leave an opening for someone else to come in. again, we're seeing the news reports this morning about deval patrick jumping in as well. i think had this is kind of the decision maker in the next couple of months. you'll see a lot of people spending a lot of money on ads in iowa, but this is a race for delegate. and i'm a dnc super delegate so i may be one of the few people who wants this to go to the convention. >> and, joe, as we said earlier this morning, this field like it was in iowa, the voters totally undecided. not totally, but the majority of

them, 61% in new hampshire say i just haven't made up my mind yet. >> they certainly are. we've been talking about joe biden's problem over the last several weeks. you look at that poll, and steve rattner, at least in new hampshire on this day with this polling company you had joe biden actually still in first place in new hampshire and he's running against two local favorites, bernie who did absolutely fantastic there four years ago in the democratic primary, and elizabeth warren who might as well be a resident. new hampshire shares all the boston media markets and is right there. i mean, she lives right in that vicinity. so i think at least in this poll i'm looking, of course, at mayor pete's move. perfect timing for the move. but also some resilience for joe biden. and i'm just wondering, are we going to be talking about joe biden six months from now the same way we were talking about john mccain in 2008 and the same way that we were talking about

john kerry in 2004? a front runner who lost his footing but ended up winning the nomination anyway? >> yeah, look, i think this is definitely a poll that's good for joe biden. it shows that he is, as you say, still very much in the mix, on top in this poll, but certainly still in the mix. i think in general he's had a good couple weeks in terms of the things he's said in comporting himself and so forth. i did find it amusing that andrew yang and tulsi gabbard came in 5th and 6th in these polls when you think there's all these senators that have been in politics for all these years and you wonder what happened to them. you mention john kerry as well. john kerry in 2003 was nowhere in iowa, 3% desperate for money and then he won the iowa caucus in early 2004, a month or two later and went on from there. so, as you say, think it's still very wide open field. i think pretty much anything can happen. i am, as i said earlier, a bit

skeptical about the idea of new entrants managing to put together the organization, the money, and so forth. but we'll see what happens. >> steve, you've been through this presidential primary rodeo a few times yourself what do you see in these polls yourself right now? >> i look at that elizabeth warren and bernie sanders number combined up to 28% of the total and you see the -- you see the lane, the progressive lane inside the democratic primaries is a significant one. and i think that it's different than kerry, it's different than mccain. both who came back in '04 and '08 is that biden has been up top, but has been slowly bleeding. he hasn't gone up, he hasn't collapsed, he's just a slow, gentle descent down. and you look at the propulse in

the race, the issues that are driving it, i think biden is in trouble in these early states. the question is when you get to south carolina, when you start to see the complexion of the democratic party in its full diversity is that the backstop for bind biden appears to be when you get to the south. will that firewall hld hold fol. >> he may lose iowa, he may lose new hampshire, not conceding those. if he does, don't worry, he'll be strong in south carolina. >> it all depends. think they're reasonable to hold that view, but if there's a large turnout and particularly that large turnout shows that the demographic vote, the demographics among african-american voters that you have an uptick in younger african-american voters, the dataa is showing those young krer african-american voters are moving towards the more progressive side of the party. and then in nevada, sanders

polling strong among latino voters. it's not the case once he comes out of new hampshire and goes into south carolina that the firewall will hold. it all depends on these young voters and voters of color. >> great to see you both. thanks for being here. coming up next, retired admiral william mcraven who oversaw the special operations team that killed osama bin laden. as we go to break, a moment last night from jeopardy when one contestant showed his support for host alex trebek in trebek's fight against pancreatic cancer. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> drew, you're smiling. i like that. let's take a look at your response. did you come up with the right one? no. what is we love you -- that's very kind. thank you. cost you 1995. you left with five bucks. okay. . okay. (contemplative synth music)

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joining us now, u.s. navy admiral william mcraven joins us. he wrote an op-ed entitled "our republic is under attack from the president ". you talk about how the potential impact on the next generation of our nation's military leaders and you write in part this. it is easy to destroy an organization if you have no appreciation for what makes that organization great. we are not the most powerful nation in the world because of our aircraft carriers, our economy, or our seat at the united nations security council. we are the most powerful nation in the world because we try to be the good guys. we're the most powerful nation in the world because our ideals of universal freedom and equality have been backed up by our belief that we were champions of justice, the protectors of the less fortunate. president trump seems to believe

that these qualities are unimportant or show weakness. he is wrong. these are the virtues that have sustained this nation for the past 243 years. if we hope to continue to lead the world and inspire a new generation of young men and women to our cause, then we must embrace these values now more than ever. >> admiral, thanks so much for being with us. it's always such a great honor. i wanted to just lead in with a question i'm curious about. from what you saw and all of your years serving and leading young men and women in uniform, from what your friends who are still active leading these young men and women in uniform, we know they're the best fighters in the world. we know they're the most courageous in the world. we know they're the best and the brightest. i am curious, though, is there a concern that they understand these values, still hold the resonance that they held when

you were there even if their commander and chief disrespects them? >> yeah, one, i'm not sure i would say -- the commander and chief doesn't disrespect the military. the commander and chief i think -- >> no, no, these ideals that you speak of? >> i will tell you the young men and women that are in the military are always going to do their job. and they do understand the values there is part of the basic training, this is part of basic enlisted training, basic officer training. we reinforce these values. but more importantly they live these values every day. i'm not concerned necessarily about the men and women in the military, whether or not they are going continue to adhere to these values. my issue really, and the point of the op-ed was more about the fact that when you look at that nation, we are a nation of values. we're a values-based organization. when you think what sets us apart, things like the first amendment set us apart. we believe in freedom of speech. we believe in the freedom of expression. we believe in the power of the press. the chinese, not so much. we believe in human rights.

not the russians. we believe in equality, not the saudis. so when you look at what sets us apart, it is these values. and we believe also our political leaders, elected leaders should make decisions that are moral, legal, and ethical. this is the foundation of america. and so the point of the article wasn't so much -- and while i wrote it on the heels of the decision to leave syria, as i've said before, you know, we can always have policy decisions -- policy discussions on both sides whether or not we should or shouldn't be in syria. those are fair and honest discussions. but we're a nation of values. and when we start to dismiss some of those values at the expense of the men and women on the ground, then i think we've got some real problems. >> well, and we also have the commander and chief who not only announced it first on our show back in 2015 that we were no better than the russians, we were no better -- our leaders were no better than vladimir

putin, what corrosive impact does that have not only on our democracy, but our standing in the world when the president of the united states and so many around him actually preach a moral equivalency between our great republic and vladimir putin's russia? >> i would argue that the president doesn't fully appreciate and understand why we are different. what is frankly also our competitive advantage. if you want to look at that time from a business standpoint, which he tends to look at, our competitive advantage is our values. when we begin to dismiss or erode those values, then i would offer that we erode the trust in the world. when yo you erode the trust in america, it's going affect the economy and how we develop alliances and partnerships because when our values aren't what differentiate us from the rest of the world, then, again, then we norbe better than some

the people that go against us. >> let's talk a look at the president's actions with regard to ukraine. withholding military aid, ukraine in a hot war are russia on its eastern front, not able to get the aid unless they went out publicly and announced an investigation into one of the president's political opponents. from your seat as a military leader, how do you view the actions that have been testified to by witness after witness? >> again, let me differentiate a little bit here about the military role. >> yeah. >> i will tell you the military is always going to support the commander and chief and i always want the military to support the elected commander and chief, period. however, what you realize certainly as an old retired guy like myself, my oath was to the constitution of the united states. so every once in a while, and more so frequently, i get criticized as being a retired guy speaking out against the president. and i've said before, that is fair criticism. there is this kind of unwritten rule that as a retired guy you shouldn't speak out against the president. so when people say you shouldn't

do that, i said, that's fair criticism. but the fact of the matter is, i also have to get up and look myself in the mirror and realize that, again, my oath was to the constitution of the united states, not necessarily to the president of the united states. i want the president do well. i think this is what people miss sometimes. i think every american should want the president do well. but the president has to help us a little bit. >> and so what do you do if you're general mattis or kelly or someone like that, what do you do with a president who clearly time and time again puts his own interests first, the most glaring case being this case of withholding military aid? what do you do with that guy if you are working with him and trying to influence his thinking? >> you know, again, you can always resign. and so when you take a look at what jim mattis did when the concerns over syria arose, jim, as we said, put his stars on the table, if you will, and said mr. president, it's been an honor to serve but it's time for me to leave because we have this fund meant ale disagreement.

and you know you do not have to follow illegal orders the and if anybody else feels like an order is illegal, i would also offer, you know, unethical, then they always have the right to resign. >> and what about his general philosophy, president trump seems to -- you write about this in your piece -- view foreign policy as a series of business transactions. country "x" isn't paying enough so screw them. country "y" isn't paying enough so why are we in the u.n. putting these countries on our backs. what would you say to him about what foreign policy is and how it should be used? >> the world say small place these days and if we don't have alliances and people that can trust us, if we can't build these relationships, then frankly conducting foreign policy is going to be very difficult. i often offered when you look after 9/11, particularly as i sit here in new york city, they initiated article 5 which says

an attack on one is an attack on all. i would offer that they did not initiate that article just because it was in the charter. they initiated article 5 because we have had this great relationship with our european colleagues since the end of world war ii and they trusted us and they believed in us. these are fundamental values, this value of trust, this value of the fact that wert good gu ad guys, as i said in the op-ed. we have to remain and continue to be the good guys and have these values or people will stop trusting us. when people stop trusting russ we us, we don't have the alliances and foreign policy becomes harder. >> i remember sputnik and people said they went to school because they had the good forte tune of the russians beating us into space and it funded their science degrees and a lot of technological advancements. in this cfr task force that

you've been a part of, you talk again about how the united states must lead in innovation for its national security. and you say that we have to get this right and we have to lean forward, so to speak when it comes to science and innovation. >> yeah, thanks, joe. this council on foreign relations task force that i did in conjunction with others, we have this great group of task force members, we really took a look at innovation and national security. and the issue, as you point out, was that we believe we are beginning to fall behind. we are still the leaders in innovation, make no mistake about it, but we do think this is one of our sputnik moments. when sputnik was launched, we woke up and realized we're falling behind the soviet union. now if we're not careful with the pace of acceleration and change, we're going to begin to fall behind the chinese.

the think the chinese are a little bit of canary in the coal mine. we said we've got to invest more in our r&d. we've got to make sure we have a pipeline for our young students coming through the s.t.e.m. program. we have to ensure that the department of defense has got the latitude to innovate and iterate and get the technology into the battlefield as wiquick as possible. back to the question of alliances, we have to make sure we have these global alliances because when you have to deal with climate change, pandemics, and standards across data sharing, you have to have alliances. these are the four takeaways from the task force report. >> retired navy admiral william mccraven, raven, an honor to han the show. thank you so much. >> my pleasure. to his point, coming up with the supreme court set to take up a case today that will determine the fate of dreamers right on cue, president trump this morning, a stoking fear on twitter wrighting that many daca

recipients are far from angels. >> oh my lord. >> just let that breathe. while claiming that some are very tough, hardened criminals. former homeland security secretary janet napolitano and senator dick durbin are standing by. they're going to weigh in next on "morning joe." by. they're going to weigh in next on "morning joe." ♪ hi honey, we got in early. yeah, and we brought steve and mark. ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. high protein. low sugar. tastes great! high protein. low sugar. so good!

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all right. it's 41 past the hour. a live look at the white house. we've been talking this morning about controversial comments that nikki haley has made, especially upon the release of her latest book. here she is just moments ago on the today show. >> i am way over time, but let me quickly because it's been out there and you worked in this administration. did you ever have any doubt about the fitness of this president to serve? >> i never did. >> any doubt about his mental aqueue witty? >> i never did. >> any question about his truthfulness, his ability toll. truth? >> savannah, i talked to him multiple times and when i had issues he always heard me out. i never had any concern on whether he could handle the job, ever. >> what about history of

truthfulness. did you think he was a truthfulness? >> in ever instance i dealt with him he was truthful, he listened, and he was great to work with. >> well, i have one word for mike pence. my friend. >> duck. >> duck. i mean, nikki haley, unless she wanted the job, would not -- would not so besmirch her own reputation. she just said she had no question as to donald trump's fitness for the job. >> she tried to, like, qualify it by saying when he was with me. >> right. but she also -- but, willie, at the end when pressed -- >> not how it works. >> -- when pressed, she said that donald trump was truthful. >> always. >> and never had any question. always truthful. willie, this is just one of those moments where we need to just stop and actually you can just smell the corruption in

washington, d.c. and you see the impact of donald trump, how he corrupts everybody that's either close to him, in his orbit, or who want to be in his orbit. i will say it is actually personally it's very sad. >> yeah. >> very sad for us because we've always believed that nikki haley actually had a chance to be something significant and she's chosen, instead, to lie for donald trump and to say things that she knows is not true, that donald trump knows is not true, that republicans know not true, and that the american people know is not true. i guess, willie, the only conclusion we can reach is, because she wants to be vice president of the united states. >> eddie glaude threw his head back so hard i think he pulled a

muscle listening to that sound bite from nikki haley. i would add she's out in interview saying there's no precedent for the impeachment inquiry. so she's parroted all the republican talking points. she whereasas a hope for a lot republicans, maybe she could be the post trump future of the republican party. but it looks like she wants to be a part of the current trump administration. susan page, what you to make from what we've heard from her this week? >> i would say in an interview i did with nikki haley that she did have some criticism of president trump. she said that it was inappropriate for him to ask ukraine to investigate joe biden. she said that was not a proper path that you want to go down. she didn't use the most heated language, but she very clearly stated she thought that was wrok. she went on to say she didn't think it was seriously enough to be an impeachment offense.

she's also made smef forome eff distinguish himself from him on race including his comments from charlottesville. she's walking this line that has tripped up almost every republican that you know, which is how though stay on the good side of donald trump who controls the republican party today while also keeping your own positions, your own principles clear. in the interview she just did with the "today show" you see her definitely on one side of that line, on the trump side. but i will say she has made some efforts to also maintain some degree of independence. >> but, you know, eddie glaude, that line was forever erased. again, just -- i must say, kudos to savannah for really bearing down on the question. the question for which there -- >> is no -- >> -- is no doubt there is no gray area asking whether the president was truthful or not.

whether the president had problems telling the truth. and when pressed, she said well, of course, he has no problems with the truth. he sounded every bit as ridiculous as of certain -- i think it was stewart varney who said the president's never lied, never told a lie before. and now nikki haley puts herself in that company. i'm sorry, for a lot of conservatives, for a lot of republicans, it is a sad day. >> you know, joe, you made the point earlier but i think it's important to echo it. we should give trump credit. whoever comes into his orbit, he reveals their character. what you said earlier is that he corrupts of soul of whoever comes into his orbit. what we say right there is nikki haley revealed for all of us to see that she's willing to turn a blind eye to trump's lies, to the erosion of our democracy, to

the crisis that we're in. donald trump has an amazing ability to reveal who these people are. and i think we need to take them for who they are. >> well, yeah, take them for who they've been revealed to be. you know, willie, mike pence is a great example. he's a guy i knew in congress. i don't recognize him. i haven't recognized him for several years. he will literally say anything that he is told to say. he will literally parrot donald trump. he's even like a parrot that if his master puts a water bottle on the floor, he'll get his beak, pick up the water bottle and put tonight floor. you look at the republican party at large, this is a party that when i joined and when i went to congress what did we fight for? fought for balanced budgets. republicans don't talk about balanced budgets anymore. they've got biggest deficits in the history of the country. they passed the largest budget

ever, the biggest pork barrel spending budget ever. they have the largest national debt ever. i'm telling you, the entire republican party back when i was in congress, i said it, you know, you have a drink, we fought day and night to balance the budget, to make the government smaller, to make it more responsive. we pushed back against the russians. we pushed back against russian aggression. we pushed back against totalitarian regimes. we fought for free trade. i mean, all the things that donald trump is doing is what we fought against. and now this republican party, like mike pence and now like nikkie haley, they just don't give a damn about conservative principles. all they're doing is fighting for donald trump and they're justification or federal judges? what about their jobs? what about saving future

generations from massive debt? how about the size and the scope of the federal government? how about supporting a president that says article 2 gives him unlimited power that he can, quote, do whatever he wants? we conservatives were madisonians. we believed in checks and balances and we believed that article 1, that congress was described in article 1, the legislative branch, for a reason. because it mattered that it was among equals, it was the most important branch. and, willie, republicans conservatives, mike pence, nikki haley, they've thrown that all away and, by the way, don't believe me, just look at the facts. just look at the debt clock. just look at what donald trump

has said. he sides with vladimir putin, an ex kgb agent over the united states intel community and the united states military i tell community. it's a sad -- it's just one more sad chapter. and just one more sad chapter. an democrat who gave money to hillary clinton eight times and said she was a great secretary of state. this is a guy that has corrupted the conservative movement and the republican party. >> it's small government deficit hawks looking the other way after the president resides over a trillion dollar deficit and to not mention the personal side of it all these senators who were insulted for a year and a half on the campaign trail in 2015, 2016 immediately flipped and support him now including in the impeachment inquiry.

let's turn to this year's far-reaching immigration case. thehi supreme court will begin hearing oral arguments to ultimately decide the fate of thousands of so-called dreamers. court is tasked with ruling on whether didn't was justified in reviewing the daca program for who were brought to the u.s. illegally. president trump tweeted this, many of the people in daca are no longer very young, and are far from angels. a deal will be made with dems for them to stay. that's a tweet from the president. joining us the second ranking democratnk in the senate, minory whip dick durbin of illinois. also with us, former secretary of state janet napolitano, thank you both for being with us.

se senator, you've been talking about this issue since before president obama was in office and some dreamers as hardened criminals? >> willie, it's a pathetic charge to think that each and every one of these 780 or 90,000, for the president to call them toughened, hardened criminals is just paethithetic. it took a court -- a federal court in southern california to finally hold t him for 2,280,00 infants and toddlers separated from their parents and them accountable for destroying the dreams of these 780,000 young people who want to be a part of america's future. >> because of what the president tweeted let's remind the viewers in the country who the dreamers are exactly, how they qualified

for the program and what exactly, where they come from, just the litany of things that the president has laid out against them and why they're not true. >> reyeah, we created daca becae this is a group of young people well deservingof to be in our country. they've grown up in the united states. they have to have passed a background check so the president's comments about them being haerndrdened criminals as president said is just flat out wrong. this allows them to remain in the country without them having to look over their shoulder without there being an i.c.e. agent there and i'm the president of university of california. we have 1700 daca student, they're in our law schools and medical schools and some have graduated and they've become doctors, nurses, teachers. they own businesses and they're in our military and these are just vital, vital young people

who are positive contributors to our communities. >> senator durbin, this is eddie. i come from a family that naturalized citizens and many when daca was putversity of cal. they're an important part of our future and we are counting on chief justice john roberts to follow the same logic he did in the census bureau case. >> it's steve rattner, after i followed trump's tweet i did a search and it occurred to me that of the 700,000 daca recipients there were something thatre 54,000 that did have pri criminal record and 17,000 would have multiple arrests and 8,000 who committed crimes after having been given daca status. do those numbers sound right to you and how should we think about that? >> yeah. they don't sound right to me, but you have to -- >> butha they did come from -- >> i need to look at the numbers and see what are we talking about? are we talking about traffic

offenses? are we talking about a minor drug a possession offense? but the fact of the matter is the daca students that i know andde i have met with are studes who have grown up in the united states. they know only the united states as home. they may not even speak the language of their country of origin. the notion that they would be subject to deportation is just wrong, and realize that, you know, this program was carefully created so that each daca applicant and application for renewal.ic they have to renew every two years would be individually renewed. >> even "the wall street journal" editorial board is out with an op ed saying dreamers should be able to remain in the u.s. we'll see what the supreme court decides. senator durbin, i do want to ask you about this next phase in the impeachment inquiry. open, public hearings beginning

tomorrow with key witnesses whose testimony we've seen in transcripts. what do you expect this week? >> i think it's going to be an eye opener for people across america. foezss of us in the political scene follow it day to day. some of the witnesses that will be called will make a big difference in terms of the conduct of the president andte whether that leads to impeachment. >>ds senator dick durbin of illinois, and janet napolitano, thank you for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. >> still ahead on "morning joe", now it's duval patrick considering the democratic primary race. mick mulvaney's legal moves to avoid testifying in the impeachment probe and now his apparent public confession plays into the case. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ ♪ moment ♪ ♪ ty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need.

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♪when you pine for the sunshine of a friendly gaze.♪ ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪ the united states postal service goes the extra mile to bring your holidays home. the idea that the president of the united states would go to russia to celebrate their military might is absurd and no one was more surprised than joe biden. >> what do you think of the idea of president trump going to moscow for may day? >> are you serious? you're kidding me. whoa. >> house republicans -- >> are you joking? >> the debates are going to be really good. >> all right.

good morning. >> are you joking? >> and welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, right? >> only tuesday. yeah. we're getting through the week here. along with willie, joe and me we have steve rattner. along with steve rattner up in new york we have eddie quad jr. and gene robinson. >> and -- i'll tell you this democratic race, it continues to sort of retract and expand. people dropping out and very choppy, of course. last week michael bloomberg was -- and as you said, it sort of cracked a -- maybe someone else can jump in. >> broke the ice. >> duval patrick, we now find out he's been contacting not only joe biden, but other democratic leaders talking about the possibility that he might run. there had been word even a year ago that duval was one of barack obama's favorites and they had been encouraging him -- >> i've heard about that in the past. >> but he'd looked at it and

just decided it wasn't worth it, but a year later, well, willie, suddenly deval patrick and a lot of other people are thinking this race is wide open, and why not jump in? i know there are other key democrats who were looking at this every day wondering whether it is their time to jump into the race? >> yeah. you've even had hillary clinton and people around her some of them going on tv suggesting she hasn't closed the door any it speaks to and feeds this narrative that the field is weak. you can talk about whether or not that's true and when you've had such prominent people like governor patrick and like michael bloomberg and hillary clinton and others saying i'm looking at this field and i know i said i wasn't going to get in, but now that i think about it i still may have a shot about this thing and i'm not sure what it says about this field and we have a poll that has a snapshot of new hampshire. we'll get to that in a moment and we have testimony in the impeachment probe, including

testimony from two witnesses that undercaughts republicans' game that there was no quid pro quo between president trump and ukraine, but first, the poll from new hampshire. according to the first quinnipiac poll in the state joe biden narrowly leads with 20% support. senator elizabeth warren with 16% and pete buttigieg with 15% and bernie sanders with 14% support. this is reflectist of the cue poll that we saw in iowa. the cluster was differently and joe biden was fourth in that state, but all within this group of four all within four or five points of each other in new hampshire just like they were in iowa last week. >> there are so many things to look at there, willy. first of all, joe biden doesn't look quite so weak sitting at 20% atop the field in new hampshire. we'd seen some polls that had elizabeth warren going past. several things stand out --

please excuse me, several things stand out there. one, joe biden sort of maintained his footing. two, elizabeth warren had an upward arc that really -- >> she was moving forward. she's run a great campaign. again, has really done all of the blocking and tackling right that you'd want in this campaign, but right now that, momentum at least for now seems to have hit a ceiling, and then you've got mayor pete in third place right there. he's right there in iowa. mayor pete's right there in new hampshire. suddenly, a lot of things happening here. it is just an absolute free for all. that seems to be very good news for mayor pete. it also seems to be at least for today, good news for joe biden that at least in this one poll he is maintaining a lead even though it's a very small lead. >> so, eddie, i would ask you,

like the iowa poll, there is a huge group of voters in new hampshire who have not made up their minds which you'd expect at this point. 61% say they could change their minds based on the answer to that question which leaves people to shape the minds of voters, but also like pete buttigieg who the country in those states don't know well to introduce themselves and make more moves there. when you think of the cluster in the top, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders obviously well known up there in new hampshire. what do you see if those poll numbers? >> when i look at those poll numbers i make the distinction not so much around individual candidate, but the debate, the fissure that's happening within the party. so you see biden and buttigieg. you combine those numbers and when you combine sanders and warren's number, you see the divide and the debate. where do we go? do we reach for something that's a much more radical change, a much more populous move or do we

double down on what we had before and that debate is evident in those numbers and the fact that 61% of new hampshire voters are undecided suggests to me that they're trying to make a decision where they're going to fall in that divide. >> we have a burch of time to make that decision and half of new hampshire's voters say they would not consider backing mike bloomberg if he were to run. 54% according to the latest quinnipiac poll. 37% said they would consider voting for him. just 2% said i would definitely vote for him. >> 2% of buttigieg supporters and none of sanders' new hampshire voters. you have some evidence there why mayor bloomberg said he'll skip the first four states with eyes on super tuesday. >> steve rattner, of course, we need to let everybody know that when you're not managing willie

and my -- >> and scratch-off tickets and that's enough to keep any man busy or woman, that you're also managing on the side of our account, also managing michael bloomberg's money and we're fine with that as long as it doesn't get in the way of your primary job with us. you know, you look at this data from new hampshire, look at a lot of other data out there, and i don't know that -- i, you know, the famous saying in god we trust, all others provide data. that doesn't really apply to politics, does it? michael bloomberg is always looking for data. data did not support donald trump's rise to the white house and it hasn't supported other people's rise to the white house. is there a chance that he may run this race even if the numbers don't seem to support him up front? >> yes, you're right.

mike bloomberg's phrases, in god we trust, all others bring data, it is certainly a different process for him to look at politics while there's lots and lots of data, you can't really depend on it and even if you depend on it, so much can change. he's been through this three times before, he was elected mayor three times in new york, in the first place, certainly, with everybody saying this is impossible and this is crazy. this is not his rodeo when deciding to enter a political race without a lot of tangible support to say that his chances are very, very high and of course, that's true of virtually everybody who enters a political race. very few people enter with any real confidence or conviction that the data says that they have a hugely high percentage chance of winning. >> so, and then there's deval patrick, the former massachusetts governor and the reporting is that he's considering a latentry into the

2020 race for the white house, less than three months before iowa. "the new york times" reports that patrick has confided in some democratic officials that he doesn't think any of the current candidates have established political momentum and thinks there is an opening for someone that can unite both liberal and moderate voters according to democrats who have spoken to him. patrick began reaching out to personal staffers yesterday and that democrats from his home state have started to contact prominent party leaders in early nominating states to alert them that he may run. this is in many ways, gene, but are these the voters that perhaps the democratic party needs to worry about when it comes to beating trump? >> well, the democratic party -- i want to unite the party, and

that's what kamala harris wants to do. that's what cory booker wants to do. that's what they've been trying to do for months and you've got to say objectively they haven't gotten very far and then you look at those poll numbers that we showed at the beginning and as eddie said, you do see a liberal wing of the party and i do think the party will come one of those wings and the party will get behind whoever it is, but i've written, i think -- so far i've written two columns asking when is the biden collapse going to happen and it hasn't happened and he continues to lead the polls and he continues to have his south carolina fire wall after iowa

and new hampshire. that's the one thing about the shape of this race that really hasn't changed a whole lot, and i don't know that deval patrick's entry -- i know that he's a favorite of a lot of the obama people and i don't know that his seentry will change th dynamic. >> he's a close friend of president obama. he was with president obama a couple of weeks ago in chicago and deval patrick is a tv commentator and he's an analyst and he's been on television not behind closed doors saying i always believe joe biden's support has been soft and he said out loud i don't think joe biden is a strong front-runner. do you think he'll get in and what kind of difference would he make if he did? >> the one thing we have to put a pin on is bloomberg and deval patrick and the murmuring suggests that a particular segment of the democratic party is very answered about joe biden and they're concerned that he

can't carry forward, win the nomination, move forward and beat donald trump. so their children is about the left wing or the progressive side of the party and what does that mean for the democrats and whether or not they can actually beat donald trump. it seems to me that deval patrick still faces the same problem -- >> right, that cory booker faces and that kamala harris faces and joe biden faces and all of them face this civil war within the party. will deval patrick be able to speak to young people? will deval patrick be able to speak to black women? will he speak to income inequality and will he be able to speak to a desire for a different future and will he simply double down on the normal that was before donald trump? unless he can offer a vision moving forward, he will fall into the same trap and i'll echo eugene here and i think he will change the divide in the primary right now.

>> one of the things that's interesting about deval patrick, i had two dinners with him early in this process with a small group when he was thinking about doing this and he gave it a lot of thought and then he decided not to, and i don't think it was so much, at least from what he told me that the field was too big or biden was going to win, but more just personal considerations about his family and his life and he's actually also doing some interesting investing up in boston, so something has changed in that sense, but look, the problem is it's really, really late for someone to get in unless you have financial resources. how do you raise this money and how do you raise this, and alabama has new hampshire and it's friday of this week, and so as a pure, practical matter i don't see how someone else gets in at this stage. >> i just wonder, eddie, if it is a, quote, civil war inside the democratic party or if you just don't have a candidate yet that is able to unite both

factions the way barack obama was able to do in 2008 and the way bill clinton was able to do in 1992. the way ronald reagan was always held by republicans as being able to synthesize the two sides of the republican party and bring them together as one. i wonder whether it's ideological or -- i wonder whether there just isn't a candidate out there yet with the political skills that can speak to both sides of this party. >> you be, joe, that's a good question. i think it might be both. i think it's very much the case that the democratic electorate in this cycle is really -- i think they're interested in the substance of political positions. of course, politics has everything to do with the charisma of the candidate and has everything to do with the candidate's ability to speak clearly and convincingly, and the country faces such serious

challenges in this moment, that from what i'm hearing on the ground, the substantive issues matter as much as the person. so i think you're right that we, perhaps, need someone to step into that divide, but they're going have to step into that divide with substance. so even with reagan, as much as i disagree with him, that even as reagan could speak to both sides, there is an ideological balance to who he and was what he stood for. somebody has to step into that particular lane and be able to bridge both of them, joe. >> still ahead on "morning joe." our next guest has testified in front of the lawmakers. former u.s. attorney barbara mcwade with us with what to watch in tomorrow's proceedings, but first, bill cairns has the forecast. >> it's leaving its mark across the midwest. yesterday, a dangerous scene. this passenger was filming out the window as the plane was landing at o'hare and there was a coating of ice on the runway

and all of a sudden the plane starts veering to the left and they lose the runway in the grass. thankfully no one was injured and no one was hurt, but -- yeah. a little touchdown right there, and then there was a scary scene for students in this bus. the bus was hit by another car and they flipped over and there were children on the bus at that time. they were out the back hatch and four children were taken to the hospital with minor injuries and no one was seriously harm and that's the scenario that we were dealing with yesterday and all of that nasty weather now sliding to the east coast and the rain is now on i-59 and the temperatures will drop quickly. some areas gkd to icy condition especially in the bridges and overpasses and we'll watch that and it's snowing in northern portions of new england. the highest snowfall was 17 inches and how about detroit, michigan with eight inches on the ground yesterday and it was a record, the most you've ever had in the month of november. driving today, be careful in

northern new england, i-95 southward there could be minor delays and i don't think there are airport cancellations and there will be some delays and the windchills after the rain and snow goes through. this is a negative type map and it's negative 13 and negative 9 in chicago and our fans in san antonio and because of this we do have the deep south and the end of the growing season all of the way through the panhandle region of florida and today's forecast, there is the bitter cold and the changeable weather in the east coast, be prepared for that this afternoon as we go from rain into snow and slippery especially in the big cities. too early for this, isn't it? new york city, snow mraflakes ad noon. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. joe." we'll be right back.

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the president's acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney who we've been asking, where is he? he's backed away from an effort to join a lawsuit over the impeachment probe. mulvaney's attorneys have withdrawn the request to be part of a lawsuit filed by john bolton's former deputy charles cupperman who has asked a court to determine whether he can testify. according to "the new york times" reversal -- mull vaughny's reversal came hours after a lawyer for both bolton and cupperman argued in court that his clients wanted nothing to do with mull vanny because they had vastly different interests as the times points out, mulvaney was among those fas iltath t facilitating the ukraine effort. not only did they try to keep him out of the lawsuit, it advanced an argument that mulvaney may have to testify in

the impeachment probe. the motion specifically notes that mulvaney appeared to admit thatthere was a quid pro quo during a white house briefing last month, meaning he may not be able to defy a subpoena by democrats since he's already discussed the matter publicly. mulvaney signaled last night that he will file his own lawsuit challenging his congressional subpoena and that's where i have a question for former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor barbara mcquade. could this go on forever? can they subpoena him and then he counter -- i guess, push back by file a lawsuit against the subpoena? could this be endless? will we ever hear from mick mulvaney? >> think one of the things that the congressional democrats have sought to do was try to reduce that strategy of endless lawsuits. one of the things we saw last week was they actually withdrew the subpoena they had on charles

kupperman and what i think the democrats are doing is trying to end that endless stream of lawsuits and put all of their eggs in the mcgahn basket. the judge in the case seemed to indicate in their position. so if they can get a favorable ruling in the mcgahn case they can wave that as precedent to compel others. i think that's the strategy. >> there was hope that john bolton would come forward and tell the truth about what he knew. a lot of skepticism yesterday after reports came out that he may have signed a multimillion dollar book deal. will we see john bolton testify in congress or is he just going to play this out and delay it as long as possible? >> i don't know. i think if there is a favorable ruling in the mcgahn case, it's compel would.

i think it's disgusting that someone who is a public servant and who obtained information on behalf of the people is selling that story rather than share it with the public in a time when it's necessary. >> barbara, it's willy. there are people that are sharing their stories the public, tomorrow bill taylor, and marie yovanovitch. we've heard their voice us through transcripts and the depositions of their closed testimony. what does it mean to have them seated in a chair in national television saying the things they've said in private. >> we'll see how much traction it gets and it could be compelling and you've read the transcripts or reports about them. what they've had to say is incredibly damaging to president trump. they talked about the fact that it is crystal clear that this was an exchange and leverage of military aid in exchange for political favor for president trump. that marie yovanovitch who was a

dedicated, career public servant was removed because she was perceived as an obstacle to a corrupt scheme. when those see the light of day, when they're vivid and the clips are shown on television and social media, i think it becomes much harder to ignore than just the printed word. and so i -- if permeates the national consciousness. >> we know that jim jordan was moved to the intel committee so he could participate in the hearings and what does that tell you how republicans plan to handling the public phase in this inquiry. >> i had the chance to testify in the summer about the obstruction of justes issue and i answered his questions. his option is full-on attack mode and he seems to distract witnesses and he wants to steal the cameras and the spotlight in hopes of distracting the public

from the facts here by undermining the quest for the truth, but i think it does suggest fear and weakness on the part of the republicans that, you know, when you don't have the facts on your side you, indeed, seek to undermine the messenger, and i think that's what jim jordan's rule will be here. >> coming up on "morning joe," the key take away reads this is not a moment to calculate the political odds and that's a moment to do the right thing. why ranked approximatepolicy so all that trump's defenders have left. trump's defenders have left ♪ hi honey, we got in early. yeah, and we brought steve and mark.

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♪ ♪ she's got a piece out, willie, looking at the republicans who still -- still defend president trump! >> yeah, and there are a lot of them. gene's latest column saying rank partisan solidarity is all trump's defenders have left. >> tribalistic identity is basically all they have left. they complained that the house has not taken a formal vote to proceed with impeachment and then the house held such a vote. they complain that they were taking witnesses of witnesses in secret, but republican committee

members already had access to those hearings. they complain that the transcripts of those interviews had not been released, but now they're being released. you will note that all of the above arguments have to do with process and not substance, but if the entire gop caucus puts party before duty, so be it. if republicans in congress fail to do their job, voter will have to do it for them. this is not a moment to calculate the political odds. it's a moment to do the right thing. so, gene, what givious any confidence at this point given what we've seen of the last few weeks of republicans inventing conspiracy theories to defend president trump that that will chashg as we see the public hearings this week? >> i do not have a lot of confidence that that will change. you know, as we said, they don't have the facts on their side and they don't have the law on their side. jim jordan will do the pounding on the table which is the third alternative, but that won't have a whole lot of impact. so in the end it will just be,

you know, we stick together in spite of the facts, in spite of the law and in spite of the fact that it is very clear even from the rough transcript or summary of that conversation that the white house released that the president committed the statutory crime of bribery. you know, just right there in the open and it's right there, and so i can't have a lot of confidence. you never know what's going to happen once, you know, i do believe the president will be impeached and you don't know what will happen in the senate if new, even more compelling evidence comes out, but in the end the house of representatives is acting here not as house democrats and it is act as the house of representatives and they have a constitutional responsibility here. the speaker of the house is in

the constitution. so this is the actual body proceeding on a constitutional process, and so if it happens that no republicans join in. that's just the way it is, but if they won't do their duty that's just the way it is. >> it seems to me that one way to take the argument of the column is that the rot goes all of the way down. it's not just donald trump. it goes all of the way down. and so the question i have for you is given that that may be the case, one reading of your piece and it follows on that that the republicans given their tribal commitments and partisan commitments will act in bad faith as we've seen, how should the democrat proceed when you have the actors and the people who were supposedly hold the same constitutional responsibility? how then, should the demeanor democrats proceed in light of the rot being all of the way down and the bad faith that seems to animate the way these

folks are in the process. >> i think what democrats have to do, they have to work on two fronts. right now it's an impeachment and the legal constitution for them and they have to act on the political front, as well and in terms of the impeachment process, they just have to go by the book. they have to bring out these public witnesses and let people hear what they have to say, and than proceed if the evidence warrants to an impeachment vote and send it over to the senate, and if they don't get any republican vote, thai don't get any republican votes. on the political front, i think you saw a bit of what democrats should continue to do or as we can in the virginia elections, actually or in the off-year elections and the republican party has been so successful that the sort of base of the pyramid of all of the solidarity

we're seeing in congress really comes from the republican success at the grassroots level in state and local elections across the country, was there a period when they took away statehouses and they took away governorships that had been held by democrats for a long time and they built the base of the pyramid and now that is very clearly being eroded away and taken away by democratic grassroots organizing and politicking and it's clearly happening and so that, over time, i think will have a major impact on how republicans in congress view their responsibility or those who are left because so many are retiring, but that's all i can see that democrats can do. they can -- they can do their job on impeachment and they can do their job on the grassroots. coming up on "morning joe,"

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welcome back to "morning joe." at this time tomorrow the house of representatives will start the first part of public impeachment from seedings against president trump. joining us now is white house correspondent peter alexander with more on what to expect tomorrow and also we've been talking about nikki haley heying in on the "today" show with president trump. trying to engage on the conversation and trying to discredit the entire process and he now says he'll be releasing the transcript of his april telephone call with ukraine's new leader and he says it will happen before week's end and that will come in advance of those public hearings tomorrow, but significantly the first call that he claims is most important

is not the one that triggered this inquiry before the president of ukraine had become president and in fact, before the military aid to ukraine was frozen here. despite the president's repeated arguments in his july phone call was as you've been speaking about, a small, but prominent republicans have been otherwise and even though none says the action are impeachable and the latest is the former secretary of state condoleezza rice saying it is in his word, out of bounds for the u.s. president to mention an american citizen, in this case, joe biden for an investigation to a foreign leader and savannah guthrie pressed the former united nations ambassador nikki haley. take a listen. >> do you think this was a perfect call? >> in his mind it was a perfect call. >> what do you think? >> it's never good practice for us to ask a foreign government to investigate an american. that's just no -- there are no

demands on that call and it is a conversation between two presidents casual in nature and it's hard to find that the president of ukraine would have thought funds were being held and that he had to do this. >> you're hearing nikki haley saying it is manufacture a good practice in her words from condoleezza rice that it is out of bound, but haley says she does not think it's impeachable and the voters should decide. she said americans deserved to know whether joe biden pushed for ousting the ukrainian prosecutor who previously investigated wrongdoing and here's an important reminder. it was the u.s. government's position who was weak on corruption needed to go. that was shared by not just the u.s. government, but by the european union and the imf, as well and beginning with bill taylor. >> savannah's entire interview

is worth the watch as she hugs president trump very tightly. peter, thanks as always. let's bring in combat veteran and retired navy intelligence collections, how team trump embraced our enemies and compromised our security and how we can fix it. >> malcolm, congratulations on the book. it's great to see you. you have really been out front before most people were on russia's attempts to interfere in the 2016 election. we now so much about it because of the mueller report and the focus. what would you see back then and try to throw up the flare about it that the rest of us didn't know. >> the first notice i gave was on july 26th from philadelphia's independence hall where i came on air and i saw what was unfolding before the whole nation, and i said the united states is under attack in a

wide-ranging information warfare attack, a political attack designed to make donald trump president. it would take about a year before anyone would really understand that. in fact, i wrote a book six weeks before the election and virtually everything that happened happened and there's a reason for that. i'm not a journalist. i'm a former intelligence operator. we see things differently. we can predict activities that must be in place for an event to occur. so if you have the dnc and you use russian military intelligence you're trying to replicate watergate and at that time the nominee was donald trump. he was very close to russia, therefore, he was being supported by russia and expected to benefit from russia's efforts. all of that would be will have dated in the mueller report and all subsequent reports. >> without giving up sources and methods, what did you say way back then that so many others didn't see? >> i had written a book prior to

that called "hacking isis." in hacking isis' we were going through all of the cyber operations and there were two, one hacking of tv 5, one of the major chan elts in paris and the warsaw stockholm in poland that looked like isis, but were atp 28, and atp-29. russian intelligence. when we saw that, we said the russians are out doing full flag operations, but when i first heard the dnc was hacked and the capability of that hacking required a state actor and the only other state that would do that would be china, north korea or russia and when crowd strike announced that it was atp 28 and atp 29 fancy bear and cozy bear, it was very obvious. rusha was trying to do watergate and we'd seen dozens of a temps to hack the white house, the pentagon and others. that immediately set off a chain of activities in my brain based

on russian intelligence activities i had seen in the cold war and it was very clear it was an attack on the nation. >> malcolm, we can focus donald trump and here we have the book "the plot to betray america." how they're trying to do x, y and z. what is the pre-story and the prolog to trump? there has to be something in the soil that makes this possible. so give us a sense of the back story that makes all of this possible in your view? >> and i write extensively about that in the book. in pack, it was luke harding at the guardian who came out with the first indicators that donald trump had been under russian intelligence surveillance for a very long tile, as early as 19 upon with his first wife ivana and she was from czechoslovakia and the intelligence agency and the stb had her communications

between the united states and the czech republic under surveillance and they knew an enormous amount of information about donald trump between 1977 and the mid-'80s. donald was starting to express an interest in building trump tower moscow. more importantly, he was the word from her family that he was trying to consider running for president against george herbert walker bush who was, of course, the former director of the cia and the vice president of the united states. so russia became very interested in him. they had ten years of collection and then they brought him to moscow for what he wanted, which is trump tower, but from that moment on, an enormous dossier of information was collected on him and more importantly, how to exploit him and his simple exploit, as we call it and the intelligence community and he is abrishs to a fault and as former

kgb debtor, they ha kgb director, they know how to manipulate people and they know how to buy people. >> when you look at the book and you go all of the way back to the 1970s and they were looking at him as an asset and maybe a useful asset that he would elevate to become the president of the united states, the best possible asset they could have, so at what point did they say this guy is a serious candidate, we need to start using him and to use information that we have to bring him in close and make sure he wins the election. sure he wins the election. this book specifically starts off how and focuses based on when putin was a baby spy, his job was to manipulate people, i sat in his office and you could just feel

the vibe that this was a man that while others were getting drunk, he was out meeting people and bringing those spies over to the solve jet union. he took all of the files of everyone he flipped and brought that into the business world when it became the modern russia. so trump in 2014. he was making enormous amounts of money, and that is when he came to russia and it became very area that he could go from a useful i'd yacht. he just wanted to build a tower, but move from a useful idiot to an unwitting asset. and then by 2014 it's clear that he knows it when they back trump tower moscow.

and then they put rose colored glasses on his face. he sees the world only through most kou's point of true. that is where he has an enormous amount of money. is he a next temperature russian asset? robert mueller said yes, he is well aware that he is going to benefit from russia. that say that trump canceled a training exercise and a javelin shipment. we have subordinated to russia. the book is "the plot to betray america." how he compromised our security

and how we can fix it. good to see you, thank you for being here. >> president trump is set to deliver a peach on trade in new york city today. it will move markets for a time but in what direction? next on morning joe. t in what d? next on morning joe. ud. i am royalty of racing, i am alfa romeo.

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welcome back to times square where it is about to get really cold and really adequate. president trump is speaking to the economic club of new york today. what do we expect to hear and what impact will we have on those narcotmarkets. >> hello, old friend. we're going to see a trump each here at the economic drub. this is what the markets care about. you heard that we're getting cloegser to a trade deal. there is goods that will be under new tariffs as of december 15th. the reality is that we need to start to hear details. we're going to meet on november x or december x at this time in this room. so the market will be keenly

eyes that as well. in part you have a shrinking stock market as well. some people expect him to take a few jabs at elizabeth warren and bernie sanders. we don't know what would we call them? teasers about what is likely to be heard from the president. >> he is anticipating that based on what he is going to say in these remarks. >> the tweets seem a little too pressured on certain economic things. we are seeing gdp come in a little unexpected. there are some things that he can point to and say hey, this is what the news that comes out,

it is likely the market could run but they hit nine all-time highs already this year. the market has done well and expect an old victory lap on a rainy tuesday. >> we don't get a lot of x, y, zs out of this president, professor, you have last word. >> decisions have to be made. not the folks who think impeachment and reproefl, it is the folks and the divide in the direct party is in full view. >> joe biteen was out in an event again. talking about your plan. tortuous use of language.

eddie, thank you so much. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up our coverage right now, hey, stef. >> four hours from now the doors will be open on capitol hill, impeachment hearingings for the president of the united states. already preparing for what will be what will be a historic day, what is the mood? >> mlawmakerers are just trickling with in and there is increased gravity of the moment. congress has not done much more than keep the lights on. house members set bills to the senate where they died, but now in front of the entire country, they will be debating the most