terrible as that. >> those are the stakes laid out by the man democrats have in charge of this impeachment probe with the next hearing coming by the then of this week on friday. we'll keep it locked here on msnbc because "hardball" with chris matthews has a lot more on today and what comes next on "hardball." tailor made. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. it's been a historic and news making day on capitol hill where the house of representatives held the first public hearings on the impeachment of president trump. democrats made the case that trump pressured the leader of ukraine to investigate his political opponents using the power of his office to do so. in their debut before the american public u.s. ambassador to ukraine bill taylor and deputy assistant secretary of state george kent spoke clearly

anda thoritatively about the pressure campaign waged against ukraine. they described an effort to leverage that country to deliver the politically motivated investigations the president wanted. and it was gent that backdrop the star witness, ambassador taylor, dropped an important new revelation, a bombshell really linking the president directly to that scheme. one day after the president asked ukrainian president zelensky to dig up dirt on his political opponents a member of taylor's staff heard a conversation. and here's how taylor described what he heard. >> in the presence of my staff at a restaurant ambassador sondland called president trump and told him of his meetings in kiev. the member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations.

ambassador sondland told president trump the ukrainians were ready to move forward. following the call with president trump the member of my staff asked ambassador sondland when the president thought about ukraine. ambassador sondland responded trump cares more about the investigations of biden which giuliani was pressing for. >> i take the import of that is he cares more about that than he does about ukraine? >> yes, sir. >> that staffer identified as david ho david holmes now set to testify this friday. republicans spent their time trying to poke holes in the testimony and advance the president's counter narrative. but the testimony of taylor and kent offered some troubling details for the president. ambassador taylor affirmed military aid was withheld in an effort to extort ukraine. and both suggested the actions taken in crew crane were

unpresidented. >> in your decades of military service and diplomatic service representing the united states around the world, have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the united states? >> no, mr. goldman, i've not. >> is pressuring ukraine to conduct what i believe you called political investigations, a part of u.s. foreign policy to promote the rule of law in ukraine and around the world? >> it is not. >> is it in the national interests of the united states? >> in my opinion, it is not. >> taylor also stood behind his texts of last september saying that military aid for political gain is, quote, crazy. >> because that was so important, that security assistance was so important for ukraine as well as our own national interests, to with hold that assistance for no good

reason other than help with a political campaign made no sense. it was counter productive to all of what we had been trying to do. it was illogical. it could not be explained. it was crazy. >> i'm joined now by u.s. congresswoman jackie spear of california that took part in today's hearing. cynthia and glenn kirschner. thank you, congresswoman for coming on tonight. what did you make of the bombshell tonight we've got a witness account now coming from david holmes who heard talking about following up the investigation he wanted done by zelensky on biden? >> it's the piling of more evidence that the president was using his office and hijacking our foreign policy to benefit

his campaign for election in 2020. it's really as mr. taylor and mr. kent said, unprecedented that a president would do something like this. and in my mind it is grounds for calling for bribery. he is a person in his official status who is asking for something of value from another party and then withholding his office and his ability to do something unless he gets what he's asking for. it's quite simple. >> cynthia, and everyone else, i want your reaction to getting the news now that the star witness today, bill taylor, the ambassador to yeah crane actually has a staffer now ready to testify he overheard the president following up on a deal he struck, extortion he setup with the president of ukraine. more actual real direct evidence. >> right. it's a bombshell. and the reason why it's a bombshell is because it brings the story away from what's going

on in ukraine and brings it to trump. and that's what needs to happen more. >> because he was on the phone. >> because he was on the phone. because he's actually involved. he's physically involved. and one thing that happened today that i thought needed to happen more was they need to take it away from fact, fact, fact, e-mail, e-mail whatever and make it a story. this is what this case is about. it's about trump trading american integrity and arms for his own political gain. it's got to be -- and every question has to go back to that. >> i thought they were pretty good at that. you don't think so. glenn? >> i think this phone call now with sondland saying ukraine is ready to move forward, how do we interpret that? bribery successful, mission accomplished. that's what that is. and i agree with cynthia, i love all of the facts and i love an overarching story and an

inclusive tale being told by heroes like bill taylor. 50 years, i get patriotic goose bumps listening to that guy. but now we need a message. we need to tell it like it is because what this is arms for political dirt. and i think -- we've heard no obstruction, no collusion, which was a lie. we heard perfect call, perfect call which was a lie. but the truth is this is arms for political dirt. that's the message. >> right. and every time there's a question it has to go back to that. every question. if the president said this, that was a lie, wasn't it? because in fact what was happening he was trading arms for dirt. >> majority members they weren't going off about emoluments or some other little tangent they did stick to the question of what happened to our president and the president of this very vulnerable question when he

shook him down. >> republicans, on the other hand seemed a bit scatter shot in their approach. >> what did you think about the whole thing? i thought the witnesses were excellent. and i like the human interest part of it. he said wait a minute, let's talk about you for a second since nobody knees who you are, bill taylor. you graduated from west point. serious trait arrows come out of there. we know they come in fourth in a class of 800 in any school is pretty amazing. and we also know in the heat of the vietnam war, he chose infantry. he went out in the jungle as opposed to guess who. >> that's why -- guess who bone spur is? i think that was pretty smart. >> and that's why these guys give you patriotic goosebumps.

they're in there just telling it like it is. they've been doing the peoples work for in george kent's case 27 years. >> and there were two councils up there today, danny goldman and this guy caster. i think goldman was great. the other guy was a dunce. the other guy got nothing done. i don't even know what he was doing. >> going back to the bombshell with sondland and this phone call, sondland is coming in next wednesday. take off work, get your fire going in your popcorn because that is an epic showdown between sondland. >> and goldman also pushed back that there's no quid pro quo. here he goes, danny goldman. >> even though president trump was saying repeatedly there is

no quid pro quo, ambassador sondland relayed to you that the facts of the matter were that white house meeting and the security assistance were conditioned on the announcement of these investigations. is that your understanding? >> that's my understanding. >> he described conditions for the security assistance and the white house meeting in those terms. dependent upon, conditioned on pursuing these investigations. >> congresswoman spieier, i think you've learned from mistakes. we've lost a lot of effort back in the days of iran contra when brenden sullivan and oliver north win the day against a bunch of people hiding up in these chairs ibcommittee rooms and he's in uniform.

this time around instead of everybody doing scatter shot you focused your energies on a council. was that a tough decision to make danny goldman would be the attack dog? >> he's very effective. a trial lawyer, u.s. attorney, great experience. and we wanted to lay out the facts, and that's precisely what happened today. facts do matter. and i would disagree with some of your speakers in that we need to lay the foundation and then we can tell the story. what we were doing today was presenting facts while the republicans were presenting conspiracy theories again. and i'd like to remind everyone that it was the president's own homeland security advisor tom brosart, who said in 2017 to the president that this ukraine election involvement in 2016 was a myth, was a hoax. and there was no relevance to the, there were no facts to support it. and yet the president is still

barking up that tree. >> i agree with you completely. also still telling everybody that ted cruz's father was involved in killing jack kennedy. he was selling that baby for a long time. he's still selling it as far as i'm concerned. both taylor and kent, the witnesses today said it went against america's national interest in the region. here they go. >> the committee's investigation has uncovered a web of shadow diplomacy engaged in and executed by several state department officials and the president's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, and ultimately directed by president trump. was mr. giuliani promoting u.s. national interests or policy in ukraine, ambassador? >> i don't think so, ma'am. mr. kent? >> no, he was not. >> what interests do you believe he was promoting, mr. kent? >> i believe he was looking to

dig up political dirt on a potential rival in the next election cycle. >> ambassador taylor, what interests do you believe he was promoting? >> i agree with mr. kent. >> that's val demings of florida being sharp and getting sharper answers there. rudy giuliani is up to no good. >> i think the key thing we heard today is we have a bipartisan foreign policy associated with ukraine that was being undermined by rudy giuliani and the others. but this was actually the declared trump foreign policy. >> how come ukraine president never admitted he was being pressured? because the minute he was being pressured he would have lost the whole game, right? these are stupid things these arguments. >> the republicans problem is they have about seven defenses and they really can't get to the

core defense because trump won't let them which is we know he did it, we know he liked it, we know he's not sorry, but it's not impeachable. that's where they want to go, but they can't. so they have scatter shot defenses not effective. >> thank you u.s. congresswoman jackie spier, and we've got a lot more to get to on tonight's assessment of the dramatic impeachment hearing today of president trump including the attempt by the gop crowd and its less than brilliant lawyer to pick apart the democrats case. the problem with his argument didn't make a whole lot of sense, did it? let's watch him. who is this guy? >> you believe he genuinely believed they were working against him, right, ambassador taylor? >> i -- i don't know what president or candidate trump was thinking about the ukraine. >> so you certainly can appreciate president trump's

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back to "hardball." in an daechattempt to m.d. minu republica republicans -- >> there are elements of the ukrainian establishment out to get the president. that's a very reasonable belief of his, correct? >> i don't know. >> did the state department ever express any concern tuesday the vice president's office that the vice president's role at the time engaging on ukraine presented any issues? >> no. the vice president's role was critically important. it was top cover to help us

pursue our policy agenda. >> the second member of the regular channel was ambassador sondland who is senate confirmed, ambassador to the eu, so his involvement here while, you know, not necessarily part of his official duties as the ambassador to the eu it's certainly not outlandish for him to be interested and engaged persaupe pursuant or secretary pompeo's direction, correct? >> it's a little unusual for the u.s. ambassador to eu to play a role in ukraine policy. >> we're back. what do you make of his presentation of the republican council there? i get the feeling he was a down beaten staffer who was afraid he was going to look like two big a big shot so hew avoided that. so the other thing looked like

he had tremendous confidence. >> danny goldman was outstanding. he kept it focus, was calm, moved it along and this guy was sort of all over the map. he can do amazing things with his facial expressions. he can move his whole face around. he's maybe in the wrong business. >> he had no notes either. did you notice that? he was winging it. >> he also got undercut by the president when the president tweeted out what i did was good. >> he's not allowed to do the obvious defense which is it's not impeachable. >> you can't fall back with this president. here's my question, television viewers you all watched this on television, very few people are in the room. did it work? >> i don't -- i don't think the republican attacks worked. when you look at the jim jordan, he's doing the jim jordan garble thing where you talked to four people in six days and three levels of hearsay and a p

partridge in a pear tree. and he was saying this is all hearsay information, secondhand, thirdhand. yeah, president trump is prohiblting the first-hand witnesses, the direct witnesses from testifying. so you can't complain about hearsay information. it's like the old line about you can't kill your parents and cry and complain you're an orphan. and that's what jordan was doing. so if you peel back the jordan garble, it's a bunch of nonsense. >> because mick mulvaney is not going to show up. none of the perpetrators like giuliani are going to show up. >> not to be a contrarian but apparently that's my role tonight, it would be nice after he does his partridge in a pear tree thing if the next congress person is listeningening and will deal with it instantly like glenn just did. because goldman can't do all the

questioning. so when he did some of those spiels people didn't come back quickly enough and provide fox news a nice little section they can play on the news over and over. the goal is not to be -- the goal is to convince people to change their minds, right? so we have to counter him right away. >> okay, president trump has repeatedly attacked anyone who dares to speak up about his questionable behavior labeling them never-trump republicans. that's his phrase. today kent ander w taylor was a if they had a never-trump agenda. >> the president tweeted multiple times about this hearing and he put in all caps, never trumpers. mr. kent, are you a never-trumper? >> i am a career nonprofessional who serves whatever president is duly lected and carries out and i've done that for 27 years. >> ambassador taylor are you a never trumper?

>> no, sir. >> what do you think of that, larry? >> well i think they are -- the president tweets out in big bold letters never trumpers. they proved today they're actually all americans. they served in their country, public servants. they answered the call to public service. and they've gone it. they're the people the president should be relying on and instead of they're being discarded and mistreated. >> they laid fact upon fact and i think the major newspapers tomorrow will lead with the strong case made by the democratic majority of that committee or intelligence committee. they're going to lead with taylor. they're going to make their case very effectively. but are those the people already converted? are they in the chorus already? i wonder whether this reach ses beyond to the people who don't

regular watch us and television, i wonder if it's a break out opportunity. i don't know. >> i think you're right. they were building this brick by brick and it's a good start. and now they have to follow it up with some frankly more powerful compelling targeted witnesses who are going to give the american people something to grab onto like arms for political dirt, something. >> right, and you know what else, we're going to have a bombshell day when sondland testifies because he has been lying. he's been saying i didn't know about the bidens, i didn't know about the july 10th meeting. the president didn't say that. the cross exam will be so dramatic, people will actually watch it. and you will see then, i predict because danny goldman's really good on cross. you will see that the white house has been lying about this. and one thing glenn and i know from trying cases the minute you prove the main witness is a liar, you've got them. >> maybe someone will agree with me here.

i think it'll solidify the case against the president for people willing to listen to it. but i also heard a lot of republicans today who do not want to listen to it. they want to change the subject to the bidens or who the wl whistle-blower sl which is totally irrelevant now. someone tells you it's snowing outside and you walk outside and it's snowing, it doesn't matter who told you it's snowing. up next, while democrats prosecute their case for impeachment, house republicans resorted to distractions so they couldn't defend the president on the central facts. you're watching "hardball." t on the central facts. you're watching "hardball. er ths than rheumatoid arthritis or psoriatic arthritis. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz xr, a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. it can reduce pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function.

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ambassador, you weren't on the call, were you? you didn't listen in on president trump's call and president zelensky's call? >> i did not. >> you never talk today chief of staff mulvaney? >> you never met the president. >> that's correct. >> and president zelensky never made an announcement? this is what i can't believe and you're their star witness. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was ohio republican congressman jim jordan trying to undercut damning testimony from ambassador bill taylor by arguing it wasn't first-hand information. the top attack dog for president trump, jordan, was hand picked to join the intelligence committee last week in preparation for the public impeachment hearings this week.

as republicans mounted defenses of the president they relied mostly on diversion. the republican committee's devon nunes' said democrats were trying to overturn the results of the 2016 election. >> anyone familiar with the democrats scorched earth war against president trump would not be surprised to see all the typical signs that this is a carefully orchestrated media smear campaign. the main performance, the russia hoax, has ended and you've been cast in the low rent ukrainian sequel. >> others pointed to the white house memo of president trump's july phone call with ukrainian president to say it showed no evidence of pressure. while texas congressman john rad california who was at one point president trump's nominee for director of national intelligence argued the phone call was no big deal. >> in this impeachment hearing today where we impeach presidents for treason or

bribery or other high crimes, where is the impeachable defense in that call? are either of you here to assert there was an impeachable defense in that call? shout it out, anyone? >> if i could just spnrespond, me just reiterate -- i'd just like to say i'm not here to do anything, anything having to do with deciding about impeachment. this is your job. >> i'm joined right now by david jolly and jason johnson, a politics editor at the root.com. let me ask you about this performance by the members of your party. it was certainly an interesting show. everyone seemed to be doing their own thing. i'm not sure what nunes was up to. he didn't seem to be a leader of the pack here, he was doing this stuff about hunter biden and ukraine 2016 and trying to get

the whistle-blower exposed. none of that had to do with the conversations president trump had with zelensky or the whole cabal to shake this guy down for dirt on biden. he was just walking around the far fringes of the topic. >> let's deconstruct some of these arguments. you're right. nunes was feeding the conspiracy base that works among some republican circles. nunes also opened by saying this is just the next step of what the democrats tried to do to trump during the investigation. it wasn't the democrats that launched the mueller investigation. it was trump's doj, and as for jim jordan saying that the in the meetings with zelensky zelensky wasn't aware, the crime was not in zelensky being aware, the crime was in the conspiracy, the crime was in the scheme. and all the kwacooberating

evidence, it is about a pattern of behavior, a consciousness of guilt and an effort by donald trump we now know was in direct contact with ambassador sondland to in fact extract this concession from the ukraine president. what we saw today was not a gop interested in their oath. even when they were pursuing their case to try to deconstruct the witnesses, even when they were shipping away, if you will, making the hearsay argument they weren't acting as fact finders, they were acting as defense attorneys. their role today was to get to the facts of impeachable activity. >> jason? >> i thought it was ridiculous. and you can go down the line but look at jim jordan. aside from his own credibility, none of us really want to look at jim jordan because he can't see things, but his big argument, you have these meetings and no one mentioned

it. i'm sorry, how many people being blackmailed go running to the very same government and say i'm being blackmailed by your boss, president trump. the one weakness and one sort of failing i saw the democrats have is when republicans kept saying vaevy they got the funding. the democrats should have pointed out it didn't happen until the whistle-blower came forth. >> i noticed one rhetorical flourish with the crowd now and it's new in politics. the old is ignore the question and give me your speech parts. these guys ignore the corrections. they ignored what they said two weeks ago doesn't work anymore and they keep saying it. republicans also blasted democrats for not bringing in the whistle-blower to testify despite the fact that lawyers for the anonymous individual have offered to submit written testimony. here they go. >> there is one witness. one witness they won't bring in front of us, they won't bring in front of the american people,

and that's the guy who started it all, the whistle-blower. >> i say to my colleague, i'd be glad to have the person who started it all come in and testify. president trump is welcome to take a seat right there. >> well, that's so true. it's not just a great counter punch, it is about trump. that whistle-blower just said you've got to watch what happened here, we found out what happened there. the whistle-blower is irrelevant now. >> it's funny. when you have a party that keeps making the argument, here's your chance and doesn't want to show up. >> is it just create confusion, get a blur, prevent anybody from focusing what they couldn't learn from the democratic case today? is it just that? >> they're playing defense to the 2020 strategy to prevent erosion of their base.

they're trying to prevent any strong hit from being landed. here's where i think there is an opportunity from democrats that i saw today that may have been missing. and it's this, an impeachment argument requires the constitutional case and political case. the constitutional case is the facts right here and the president wanted an investigation into the bidens. and the constitutional case is about trump. the political case is about the american people and about the voters. and i think the case that democrats could make to the voters is, look, trump tried to steal the next election from you. he tried to cheat by this next election by using foreign aid to dig up dirt on his opponent and tip the balance of the election in his favor. and secondly he jeopardized america's national security, not the ukraine's. and by bigt holding aid he emboldened russian aggression. and russia is our enemy, and the president didn't care. make the case about the american people as much as you make it about donald trump's behavior. >> i love the way you said that. it is about the country, and

it's what country do you want to live in, and we're living in this one. up next, did the democrats make a strong case for impeachment to the american public? we're going to ask one of the leading democrats in the house? that's coming up next in just a minute, in fact. you're watching "hardball." t. you're watching "hardball. high protein. low sugar. tastes great! high protein. low sugar. so good! high protein. low sugar. mmmm, birthday cake! pure protein. the best combination for every fitness routine.

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all 39 million of you, on one condition. that you do everything to preserve and protect them. with love, california. i did not watch it. i'm too busy to watch it. it's a witch hunt. it's a hoax. i'm too busy to watch it. >> too busy to watch it. as the house held its first public impeachment hearing today that could determine the future of that man's presidency trump was meeting with president erdogan of turkey and comes just weeks after turkey's strong man invaded syria and attacked u.s. allied kurdish forces. trump responded to the new revelation from today's hearing

that a member of ambassador taylor's staff overheard a phone call between the president and eu ambassador sondland about ukraine being able to move forward with the investigations trump demanded of them. >> i know-nothing about that. first time i've heard it. in any event it's more secondhand information. but i've never heard it. i don't recall -- not even a little bit. >> i don't recall. i know-nothing, while the president said he was too busy to watch the public hearings today his schedule did not stop him from lashing out on twitter with nearly catch this three dozen tweets and re-tweets from him. in one he appeared to call out today's witnesses as, quote, never trumpers. for more i'm joined by shannon pettypiece. this guy on a day he claims he's not watching six hours or 5 hours of testimony against him

largely he was tweeting like a bandit. >> he was. there was certainly a morning flurry of tweets. and at one point he said he was too busy to watch and then he said, well, i see they've got tv lawyers or lawyers off tv. he was aware at least of what the optics were. >> i noticed i bet he had the worst lawyer, too. >> the republican certainly didn't have judge janene, his favorite lawyer. but in general what we're getting from the white house is they feel like they essentially played this one to a draw. they don't think anybody's mind played from this. they felt like they got to make a couple of points they wanted to make. firstly this one you haurd the president make about no one having first-hand knowledge, direct conversations of them. >> he's going to testify he was listening. >> right. so we'll see what sondland ezicize. but everyone else the prelz has

blocked from testifying who would have had first-hand conversations or knowledge was mostly mick mulvaney. and now they're accusing anyone else who testifies of not having that sort of direct link to the president's thinking. >> according to "the washington post" president trump has been threatening to fire his acting chief of staff mick mulvaney for weeks, but senior advisers have been urging him off that ledge. three people familiar with the discussions say the advisers cautioned the president that removing mulvaney at such a sensitive time could be perilous, well, both because mulvaney played an integral part and the disruption. and trump had expressed particular anger following mulvaney's press conference last month that president trump froze the military aid to launch investigations that would politically benefit him. this is reasonable prch for the

first time trump is actually reasonable. he should be mad at the guy who said he's guilty. >> yes, that was problematic for the president's case, that press conference with mulvaney. and our reporting indicated after that there was a flurry of discontent. and the people in the white house who have wanted to see mulvaney move out, saw that as a moment to make their case to the president about getting rid of mulvaney. the problem has always been for this president who do you place the person you want to get rid of with, and there's no real viable options they were able to come up with. and the temperature seems to come down, and mulvaney remains certainly through this impeachment vote. but going into 2020 people we've talked to say there's certainly the option open the president will bring in a chief of staff that has -- >> here's mick mulvaney telling friends i've got dirt on the president, he can't fire him. the president still calls him

acting. they're both conditional. up next, a top democrat in the house u.s. congressman hakeem jeffreys of new york joins me to discuss the beginning of the public impeachment effort. you're watching "hardball." impeachment effort you're watching "hardball. this? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover? (grover) cause an accident? maybe... (bert) how do you know all this stuff? (burke) just comes with experience. (all muppets) yup. ♪ we are farmers. ♪ bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum fine, no one leaves the tablefine, we'll sleep here. ♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. can you tell me the story again?

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political rival for personal gain? did the president or his allies use the office of the presidency to apply pressure to that president? and did the president obstruct or cover up evidence about his actions? u.s. ambassador taylor and deputy assistant secretary of state kent both pointed to yes. that was their answer. yes, he did all three. after the hearing chairman schiff asked the american public if they're okay with that kind of behavior from an american president. >> ultimately, what we will need to decide and what i hope members on both sides of the aisle in the house and if necessary in the senate, what i hope members will think about is what do these facts mean for the future of our country? what do these facts mean in terms of what americans should expect from a president of the united states? are we prepared to say that asking a foreign nation now to intervene in our elections is something that is a part of the office of the presidency? >> for more i'm joined by

democratic congressman from new york hakeem jeffreys, chair of the house democratic caucus. it's great to have you on, congressman. thank you for joining us. you're leader of the caucus. i thought and you've been following politics for a long time, i thought you were disciplined out there, your party members on the house intelligence committee. i thought they all kept the folks on the issue of corruption, of this president using his public office for political gain after their very much circling the president of the united states while the republicans were all over the place. some were them were focused. some were not. some were like the ranking member nunes who never impresses me. and even less impressive was his council. i think you did a lot of good work today to get the story to the american people. >> i agree. and we're going to continue to follow the facts, apply the law being guided by the constitution and present the truth to the american people. that's exactly what happened today. the members of the intel

committee led by chairman schiff are doing a phenomenal job. they recognize every single member of the house democratic caucus led by speaker mulosy recognizes this a serious moment, a somber moment for our country. and we're going to approach it in that regard. the witnesses confirmed the fundamental facts which is that donald trump pressured a foreign government to target an american citizen for political gain, thereby soliciting foreign interference in the 2020 election at the same time he was withholding $391 million in military aid without justification from a very vulnerable ukraine. that is textbook abuse of power. >> i'm going to guess the speaker was behind everything today.

how do you think she thought the hearing went today, the hearing? >> she of course set the tone that we will continue to be serious, undertake our constitutional responsibilities consistent with the house serving as a separate and coequal branch of government, consistent with what james maddenson once observed, that the house should be a rival to the executive branch. why did he use the word rival? chris, as you know because the founders didn't want a king. they didn't want a monarch. excuse me, they didn't want a dictator. they wanted a democracy, and that's exactly what we're defending. >> do you believe right now that the democratic caucus which voted 332 to begin these proceedings are still together on this? they are confident they can hold together and bring this to a vote by the end of the year, a vote for impeachment? >> well, we'll see where the process takes us. we'll have to wait until the

intel committee and upon completing their work they'll make a recommendation to the intel committee and then we'll make decisions how to proceed in the presidential accountability. what is clear when you have a witness like ambassador taylor that's a vietnam hero, someone who's a clear patriot, someone who was appointed by reagan and bush and trump to serve, this is not about democrats versus republicans. this is about right versus wrong. and we're going to continue to present these facts to the american people, and hopefully they'll conclude this type of behavior from the so-called leader of the free world is unacceptable in the context of our democratic republic. >> i thought your colleague from new york, mr. maloney, did a job of bringing about that

bigraphic bigraphical information about mr. taylor. he went into combat. he became an infantry, you know, combat leader going into the jungles of vietnam. he did all that with his intellectual advantage of not having to do that kind of grunt work. it's a very impressive character you had out there. it was impressive somebody said so. >> that's correct. bill taylor is a straight shooter and he's someone that cares about this country, cares about the integrity of our democracy, knows the difference between right and wrong. what you're going to see over the next few weeks is patriot after patriot come forward and just tell the truth to the american people. ultimately we'll have to make a decision what that means in terms of presidential accountability is that this case, this wrongdoing hiding in plain sight, it's about national security, the integrity of our elections, abuse of power and

betrayal about and about the united states constitution and we're going to defend our democracy no matter what it takes. >> i've got to say keeping the focus here so the american people have a choice to make about this impeachment. u.s. congressman hakeem jeffries of new york. up next my thoughts about the testimony and some good advice i got my dad years ago. you're watching "hardball." y da. you're watching "hardball. ♪ exxonmobil is growing algae for biofuels. that could one day power planes, propel ships, and fuel trucks... and cut their greenhouse gas emissions in half. algae. its potential just keeps growing. ♪ when you rent from national... keeps growing. it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle, even if it's a better car class than the one you reserved.

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our father who worked in the philadelphia court system for three decades once gave me the remarkable advice. if you're guilty he said always ask for a jury because as 30 years as a courtroom he found juries unpredictable. so if the evidence is weighing heavily against you he said the smart move he came to realize is simply taking your chances with those 12 people sitting together on the side of the courtroom. now if you're innocent, he argued, just the opposite. let a judge decide the case. a judge will look at the evidence and see it doesn't add up. he'll see the argument being put forwid by the prosecutors and know they're puffing up a weak case. if you're innocent, put your faith in a professional judge. as i was listening to ambassador bill taylor and george kent today i thought these guys know what they're talking about. they ask questions, they're calm clear and ready to sit there all day dealing with reality. so i'm going with the judge on this one, i'm going with the trait reporters of the major

newspapers, the wire services and the best political journalists. the president tried using the power of his office to extort some dirt he can use on his rivals and those are the facts. and that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> you with hold that assistance for no good reason other than help with a political campaign, made no sense. >> day one of the impeachment of donald j. trump. >> it was illogical. it could not be explained. it was crazy. >> career diplomats lay out the facts. >> and rudy giuliani said it would not acceptable if it didn't mention biden burisma in 2016. >> and unveiled brand new evidence of the president's plot to extort ukraine. >> members could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about investigations. >> tonight the take-aways from today's historic hearing. >> have you ever seen another

example of foreign