started deliberations today in the case. i can tell you now five hours went by, they didn't reach a verdict. and they did ask those two questions we discussed. that means they are done for tonight but they will be back deliberating tomorrow morning. "hardball" with chris matthews starts now. witnesses 2, trumpsters 0. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews up in new york. the case for impeachment is gaining strength after the dual testimonies of ambassador bill taylor and deputy assistant secretary of state george kent. more than 13 million americans watched live on television as both witnesses described the president's scheme to leverage ukraine for political gain. and that number doesn't include

people who watched online. despite republican efforts to turn yesterday's hearing into a circus, it was a rare occasion where substance won out over theatrics. in fact today speaker pelosi, nancy pelosi, said the hearing bolstered the central charge that the president attempted to bribe ukraine by trading arms for dirt. >> the devastating testimony corroborated evidence of bribery, uncovered in the inquiry, and the president abused power and violated his oath by threatening to withhold military aid in a white house meeting in exchange for an investigation into his political rival. the bribe is to grant or withhold military assistance in return for a public statement of a -- of a fake investigation into the elections. that's bribery. >> "the new york times" notes that pelosi's use of the word bribery today was significant because it suggested democrats

are moving toward a more specific set of charges that could be codified in articles of impeachment in the coming weeks. it's also telling that the u.s. constitution explicitly describes bribery is an impeachable offense. above all else yesterday's hearing demonstrates trump's primary mission in ukraine was to advance his political agenda. and now there's new reporting on the bombshell revelation an embassy staffer overheard the president ask ambassador gordon sondland about the investigations he was demanding of ukraine in july. the associated press and "the washington post" both report that a second u.s. official was also able to hear the president on that phone call. each is citing a single anonymous source who's familiar with the matter. well, nbc news has not spoken to anyone who's confirmed that reporting, it could further establish that the president was personally orchestrating the scheme to leverage a foreign ally. and here's how ambassador bill taylor described that overheard phone call yesterday.

>> a member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations. mr. sondland told president trump the ukrainians were ready to move forward. >> so your staff member overhears the president asking about the investigations meaning burisma and the bidens in 2016. and ambassador sondland told president trump that the ukrainians were ready to move forward? >> he did. >> well, that call took place just one day after president trump personally asked ukrainian president zelensky to dig up dirt on democrats. and that's the smoking gun conversation at the heart of course the impeachment drive. and now the first staffer who overheard trump's conversation, david holmes, is scheduled to testify in a closed session before the intelligence committee tomorrow. "the washington post" is also reporting late tonight that a white house budget officer is expected to break ranks and testify in the unfolding inquiry and could shed light on the freeze of that military aid to ukraine. i'm joined right now by

democratic congressman raja chris moorgty and mieke eoyang, and john meacham of course our presidential historian. congressman, yesterday, today and tomorrow seemed to be strengthening a lot of confirmation the president did in fact have that phone call with zelensky, the president of ukraine but also there was a lead up to it, and we're learning just now two witness tuesday the follow up. the very next day the president is on the phone with sondland saying are you getting this job done, are you getting this dirt you're asking zelensky for? it shows personal involvement it seems to be how you're looking at. how are you looking at it? >> that's right. i think the evidence from yesterday points to basically the president even more involved in this scheme than we knew before. and as a consequence we're following up on this new

information. and at the end of the day i think ambassador taylor's compelling testimony and revelation of this piece of news makes it even more important that we proceed with the inquiry and ask further questions. >> it seems to me just from looking at this, the play by play of this contest between truth and what i would consider a circus atmosphere, the republicans even though on your committee where they are as expert where you guys are potentially because they're hearing all the witnesses, they don't want to hear from the witnesses, they want to focus on something else. who's the whistle-blower, let's go talk to hunter biden. anything else, let's talk about 2016 and the ukraine bogus theories. they don't seem to want to challenge the facts of the conversation the president had or even the follow-up conversations he would with sondland. >> that's right. and in fact in a lot of cases it almost feels like they concede some of this evidence and the facts that basically seem to

support the allegations or charges against the president. instead they make arguments such as this. they say, well, the aide resumed anyway on september 11th so no harm, no foul that happened in the preceding months. of course that resumption of aid happened two days after we launched a congressional investigation of the charges. i hope we put that bogus argument to rest finally, but let's see what happens. >> well, it's like he said i shot somebody on fifth avenue but i only wounded them. they survived the shooting. that's what he's saying here. i want to talk to you about the facts here. it seems the facts are really not being disputed except saying the country didn't die. this was outed and they got their money, but clearly they weren't going to get their money as long as it was secret. >> you still have the president of the united states for instance trying to malign the whistle-blower, claiming he

misrepresented the conversation that the president had with president zelensky where there are not any evidence of anything -- you know, there have been multiple witness whose have corroborated the content of that whistle-blower account. we also had the president yesterday that that press conference say he didn't recall any details of this overheard conversation at this restaurant in kiev where the president allegedly spoke to sondland and indicated that he was interested in these investigations. apparently more interested in the investigations than he was in ukraine policy itself. and so you've still got the president trying to distance himself here, trying to maintain some level of deniability. >> you've got a second witness to that conversation that heard trump talk to sondland about following up and getting the dirt from zelensky. more evidence of personal involvement of intense personal involvement. how solid are we on that second witness? >> well, this was an individual who was present at that

restaurant in kiev where that conversation took place. she was sitting around the table. she's somebody who has worked in kiev, she's got a background as an attorney, and according to somebody close to her, she overheard the exact same thing that hines heard sondland say around that table. there's still questions about what exactly the nature of that conversation was, why it was ambassador sondland would be using his cellphone at a public restaurant in kiev, and unclear perhaps he put the president on speakerphone, awhether he passed around the phone how it was all these individuals heard about it. nevertheless, this was two individuals who say they heard the president around that line. >> and that tells me and everybody can jump in here, the fact this guy sondland who basically bought his ambassadorship, the fact he can get the president whenever he

rings him up, he's got his private cell number, and that's impressive enough to me that this guy's in tight with the president. he's been deputized to do his dirty work for him. and anytime he wants to have trump on the line, trump's ready to take the call and push him forward. >> that's right. it's very clear that the president is in fact directing this scheme, that sondland is taking direction from the president. he said as much to the person who overheard the phone call. and, look, you can argue about whether or not the president was the mastermind of this thing or rudy giuliani put the idea in his head. but at the end of the day the president is the boss of these people. he's the one that tells them what to do. he's the one that says this is what you should do and what you shouldn't do, and he's the ultimate beneficiary of the scheme. he's the one whose rival will be investigated if the ukrainians go through with this thing. not giuliani, not sondland. >> president trump yesterday

denied having any recollection of the conversation he had with gordon sondland, the follow-up of investigations he was demanding with ukraine. he doesn't remember. >> i know-nothing about that. first time i've heard about it. >> do you recall the conversations? >> no, not at all. not even a little bit. >> he goes into that little tommy smaugters -- that dull, dull noninflicted voice he goes to whenever he's lying. i don't know. i don't remember. anyway, it's trump's latest attempt to distance himself from sondland after he told reporters he hardly knew sondland and now he's having these conversations in kiev with a guy he doesn't know. let's watch him deny that. >> gordon sondland said at the beginning of september he presumed there was a quid pro quo. then there was a telephone call to you on september 9th. had he ever talked to you prior

to that telephone call? >> let me just tell you, i hardly know the gentleman. >> however, house intelligence chairman adam schiff described yesterday why this call is significant to the inquiry. >> this is obviously very important because there is an effort apparently to by the president's allies throw sonldlasonl sondland under the bus, throw anybody under the bus in order to protect the president. what this indicates as other testimony has like wise indicated is that instructions are coming from the president on down. >> john meacham, only someone who never worked in politics would believe people felt like what they were doing when there's a boss there, but they're just doing what they feel like doing, like it's a modern school. just feel like what you feel like doing. it's a nonsensical defense. nixon threw all those guys under the bus until there's no more

bu buses coming by in his term. your thoughts? does anybody believe this, my people didn't do this, i didn't do it? >> particularly given the trump country. but there are no bufferers here. it's actually not that surprising that the eu ambassador has his cellphone. there are stories everywhere about how accessible the president is actually. and he it's the trump organization, the trump tower, the trump presidency and he runs this out of his back pocket. a couple of tells as they would say when you're playing poker. one the slow voice, and the other is i didn't know this gentleman. remember he didn't know steve bannon, he didn't know paul manafort. there's a certain pattern here. my own sense is he's going to move from -- and i could be wrong, of course, but i think he's going to move from this i

don't remember this into a kind of a few good men moment like where like jack nicholson, colonel jessup, he's going to eventually say you're damn right i did, i did this, what are you going to do about it? i think he's going to end up where mick mulvaney was with the get over it. partly because i don't think mick mulvaney would have said that in the pressroom if he hadn't gotten some of that from the president himself. basically what we're facing as a country is the question of do we want to get over it? do we want to accept this republican argument, yes, there was law breaking but they got the aid once they were caught, and in that scenario in a weird way the whistle-blower saves donald trump, right, as they stopped the illegality at least. and i think we're going to have to decide -- i bet he's going to cop to it eventually in a defiant way.

but in the movie nicholson gets arrested. so the question is, is this guy going to get punished? >> i think you raised a good sleuthing point there. and that is, congressman, where do you think mick mulvaney, your former colleague and now acting chief of staff, still omb director, got the idea he can go on television and simply say, yeah, it was a quid pro quo, get used to it, happens all the time? maybe it does sound like a pretty good intuition on the part of john meacham, he got that from the president. that was his initial instinct to say, live with it. >> i think that might be the instinct that leads the president to say this is a perfect call, this is beautiful call. regardless of what you think, chris, about that call, it was beautiful and that's what you should be thinking about it. and i think that that kind of thinking infects probably some of his deputies. the other thing i would say is as soon as mick mulvaney said

what he said, and obviously this is by the way this is not hearsay. this is first-hand account of what the president wants to have happen at omb. you know, mick mulvaney quickly found himself alone because doj distanced themselves from him, the president's own attorney distanced himself from him, so that's just the culture of this white house, throw everyone under the bus. >> and keep changing your story, and you don't hope your staff people can keep up with it and you keep changing it. anyway, throughout the hearing yesterday bill taylor and george kent's testimonies hammered home the point that trump tried to extort political dirt from ukraine using his office and his perm lawyer to do so. >> the official foreign policy of the united states was undercut by the irregular efforts led by mr. giuliani. >> giuliani's efforts to gin up politically motivated

investigations were now infecting u.s. engagement with ukraine. >> president trump did insist that president zelensky go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of biden and 2016 election interference. >> the possibility of a white house meeting was being held contingent to an announcement. >> in fact, ambassador sondland said, everything was dependent on such an announcement including security assistance. >> such selective actions undermine the rule of law regardless of the country. >> it was illogical, it could not be explained, it was crazy. >> mieke, we have an amazing scenario facing us the next couple of weeks. it looks like we're going to get articles of impeachment out of the house probably by christmas, a senate trial to follow next year, somewhere in that a fireside chat by the president where he's going to go before the american people and in nixon-like deny or accept

everything. we're talking about drama down the line here. >> and this president loves drama. but when you look at the way republicans are defending this case, what they are doing is not attacking the substance, they're not disputing the facts here. they're counting on the fact they believe america is so tribal that all the republicans will continue to vote with him, and people are not able to make up their own minds when they hear the evidence. and what the democrats have done here in going to those open hearings is let the american people see the evidence and decide for themselves. >> well, it's an interesting jury out there in the american people. congressman and everybody else in my business of journalism, i think 50% of the people are maybe listening and our numbers are growing and there are people who have closed their mind to this issue. thank you for coming on from illinois. and the associated press is wonderful.

you people are amazing. and john meacham, of course, my friend and one of the great historians in this country. coming up, the republicans tangle a torture defense of president trump. >> what you heard did not happen. it didn't happen. >> are either of you here today to assert there was an impeachable offense in that call? shout it out, anyone? >> this irregular channel of diplomacy it's not as outlandish as it could be, is that correct? >> that is my favorite question. it's not as outlandish as it could be, and that's the republicans chief council. and as republicans relied on obfisication democrats advanced the case for impeachment. lawrence tribes is going to be here with me in a minute. plus republican senators see trump's impeachment trial overlapping with republican caucus making it difficult for

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welcome back to "hardball." ambassador william taylor and deputy assistant secretary of state george kent painted a sobering portrait of a president using the power of his office to advance his personal political agenda by withholding military aid from a foreign power. faced with that evidence, republicans looked the other way, opting inside stoopreinste press an alternative reality. >> the whole point you had a clear understanding aid will not get released unless there's a commitment, not maybe, not i think the aid might happen and it's my hunch it will get released. you used clear language, and those two things didn't happen so you had to be wrong. >> no pressure, no demands, no conditions, nothing corrupt.

>> so not only no conversation with the president of the united states about ukraine. you've not had any contact with the president of the united states. >> for the millions of americans viewing today the two most important facts are the following. number one, ukraine received the aid. number two, there was in fact no investigation into -- >> well, today speaking to reporters how speaker nancy pelosi responded to republican criticism by inviting president trump to participate, him, get in the conversation on the inquiry. >> if the president has something that is exculpatory, mr. president, if you have anything that shows your innocence, then he should make that known. and that's part of the inquiry. and so far we haven't seen that, but we welcome it. >> house republican leader kevin mccarthy told reporters he wouldn't support impeachment even if new evidence confirms the president demanded investigations into former vice

president joe biden. for more i'm joined by lawrence tribe. professor tribe, what do you make -- to start with, what do you make of the republican -- i wouldn't call it a defense. alternate narrative yesterday? >> i think it's ridiculous. the fact if you solicit a bribe and are caught red-handened before you get the bribe, you've still committed bribery. and in this case it was extortion as well as bribery. it was a clear abuse of power. and in any case the history of the framing of the impeachment power is that george mason, one of the framers, wanted to include in addition to treason and bribery, a term like corruption. and in the end instead of corruption, they used other high crimes and misdemeanors and mason said that was intended to capture among other things

attempted subversion of the constitution. so here we have actual as well as attempted subversion for over 70 days the aid was withheld. and if not for the whistle-blower, if not for having been caught red-handed, the president would have gotten what he wanted. he would have wanted a public television appearance by president zelensky smearing biden and saying that we're investigating him. the only reason they didn't get that is that he was caught. and for him to say that i was caught and so it doesn't matter is really a desperate and unconvincing move. the question is will the people of this country accept it? will they accept that it's okay to use your official power to hurt an ally and help an adversary just because you're caught before you hurt the adversary any longer. and i don't think the american people will buy that. but then maybe i'm just too

optimistic. >> while trump doesn't have a very good historic sense about our culture or anything, i was wondering i'm trying to be really fine here in understanding this because i grew up lbj, and he used the power of the presidency, close certain naval bases and keep others open depending on who he liked that week. tell us the difference between that and what trump is doing, or what he's done here with ukraine? >> it's very different. first of all it's national security and foreign affairs, and secondly this is a case where congress specifically said that this $400 million and the javelin missiles should go to ukraine in order to protect this ally against the encroachments of russia, the encroachments of vladimir putin. and congress specifically said that the money shouldn't go until the pentagon certifies that corruption will not get in

the wail of delivering the money the way we intend it to be used. that certification was given. so the president violated what congress had specified. he violated the power of the purse. he usurped the power of the purse, and he did it in a way that solicited foreign assistance for his re-election, which was itself a criminal violation of the laws protecting the sanctity of our electoral process. we've had corrupt presidents before, presidents who have trimmed the sales this way or that, but we've never had somebody whose whole purpose in holding that office is to enrich himself and enhance the power of his family and the wealth of his family. this is not just a marginal violation. this is essentially an anti-president. and i'm not talking only about his policies. his policies are a different matter altogether. it wouldn't matter if this was

obama or clinton, any president. just ask the republicans if a democratic president in the future takes money that you have appropriated for a particular foreign purpose and then threatens to withhold it and watch people die on the battlefield until he gets what he wants for his re-election, would you like to live with that? is that the kind of country we want? it's not the kind of country i believe that we want or that our framers envisioned. and i think it's about time that people pay more attention to the constitution and to the purposes of our democracy than to the trivial business of getting re-elected. if your office is so important to you that you're going to violate your oath and vote for someone who violates his oath every day and who uses the office of the presidency to enrich himself and to enhance his power, then i really think you are a pathetic excuse for a

human being. >> well, as a citizen i love the way you put together the absolute imorality of this with his unconstitutional behavior. because the idea of letting people die so you can get a little dirt on your opponent and as corrupt as you can imagine. >> it's pretty sad. >> i wish i was in your classroom. up next roger stone's fate in the hands of the jury. before day one, roger was pushing this guy to run for president way back in the '90s. now it looks like he is really facing hard time. after a trial full of new revelations about trump and his other close advisers. there's a lot of stuff coming out here. it doesn't look good about the honesty of this president, but this guy is going to go under the bus. you're watching "hardball." go the bus. you're watching "hardball. coughing

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welcome back to "hardball." right now a former trump advisor and he's been an advisor for a long time, roger stone is awaiting a verdict in court effacing up to 20 years in prison on charges of witness tampering and lying to the u.s. congress among other things. he's been with trump at his side for decades. there he is sitting next to melania back in '99. look how close he is sitting with his then girlfriend.

if he's convicted he'll become the sixth trump aide to plead or be found guilty along with papadopoulos, rick gates, michael flynn, and michael cohen. all going to jail. stone's trial has provided a window, however, into portions of of the mueller report largely redacted. what trump and his campaign new about russian efforts to hack the dnc and hillary clinton. the former deputy campaign manager rick gates who pled guilty to lying to investigators last year testified in this trial he discussed with stone as early as april 2016 and also says campaign leadership had held brainstorming sessions what to do with when and if the information was leaked to them. most strikingly gates testified he overheard a conversation between trump himself in 2016 directly after the earliest dnc e-mails were released after trump told gates more information would be coming. president trump maintains he doesn't recall any such

conversation with stone, of course. i'm joined now by ken dilanian, nbc news correspondent of course, and maya wily. first of all the smell and look of that trial. who is this guy he brought in, it's like ed williams brought in joe louis one time to help one of his candidates, jimmy haufa. who is that minister that comes along with the defendant here, roger stone? what's that all about? have you been been watching that? >> i've got to be honest, chris, i have not so i'm not familiar with what you're talking about. >> what about roger stone, does he look like he's about to burn here? does he look like he's going down? >> he's walking around the courthouse kind of unaccompanied, shambling around. that's because the evidence, chris, is overwhelming. he really doesn't have much of a defense other than oh, it doesn't matter or don't take

stone too seriously, he didn't know what he was saying, he didn't have criminal intent. but the prosecutors have documents that refute his testimony. but the most interesting part of this trial, chris, is how the prosecutors made donald trump a character and they made clear even though they go to work every day with donald trump's portrait on their wall, they made clear what's at issue in this trial is bad conduct of his campaign. they said over and over again the reason stone lied to the house intelligence committee is because the truth would look bad for his long time associate donald trump. and then they put up phone records that show stone was in close contact with trump while he was pursuing the hacked e-mails, that stone even called trump on the day the dnc announced they'd been hacked by the russians, and then trump called them back, and they talked and stone was in touch with steve bannon and rick gates. and by the way, that rick gates testimony, prosecutors would not have put that on unless they thought it was true. they have an ethical obligation

not to put false testimony before a jury. so you had the u.s. attorneys office in d.c. endorsing this statement by rick gates that refutes donald trump's sworn testimony to robert mueller, chris. >> maya, this is morality play. this guy wasn't a good guy to begin with. he's a dirty stricter by trade. if he gets a bad verdict tomorrow we're talking at his age which would be a long sentence. >> unless he's getting a pardon, which would be politically unwise for trump i think. but it's very hard to understand roger stone's behavior in any other way. because remember he had the opportunity -- first of all, jerome corsi refused to cooperate. remember jerome corsi is in the indictment. he's the person roger stone wouldn't reveal when he kept saying i have this back channel and then he says it's randy

credico who testified in the trial. but he was protecting jerome corsi and also the guy who miraculously wiped clean his computer before investigators could get at it. and he's the one who's actually in some of those critical periods in august actually having communications around getting e-mails. i say that because there was so much evidence and evidence that if you're refusing -- if you're literally lying to congress and saying i have no e-mails, i have no texts when there are e-mails and texts unless you did what corsi did which was wipe your computer -- >> it's a simple case for me knowing they're going to get the hacked information against hillary clinton they could use against her, and it cost her a number of points. there's no doubt about it, it played a role in defeating her in 2016, and now he can't admit what he was bragging about before, he was the guy getting the dirt. in his written answers to mueller, however, president trump responded he did not

recall or did not recollect information -- 36 times he said it. and five of those times were in response to questions about roger stone and the hacked materials. what is this about forgetting, by the way? where does that fit into our lives, i forget? >> yeah, well it wasn't very believable when in fact in the mueller report they suggest it wasn't very believable. some of the things he forgot, for instance, was that the dnc e-mail hacking of that release was like on his birthday. there were these kind of periods where you'd think how wouldn't you remember that? but i think what's critical here is this is why donald trump's lawyers did not want him to be interviewed. remember -- >> well, he did a written response. >> a written response is not an interview because remember they kept calling it a perjury trap. well, there's no such thing as a perjury trap. you either tell the truth or you don't. >> thank you. you know what, the one thing trump really did forget was his oath of office.

that's what he fraupt. ken dilanian, thank you for that. i don't know how you sat through that trial. up next the impeachment trial in the senate could last five to six weeks. here it comes, the tricky part for our business, too, overlapping with the iowa caucus and new hampshire primaries. so we could be here every night on "hardball" giving you a split screen of senators, six presidential candidates, sitting in the chamber of the senate trying the case of donald trump while they were dying to be be out there in iowa when i know their opponents are out there, buttigieg and biden are out there going crazy and they're stuck in their pews. you're watching "hardball." they stuck in their pews. you're watching "hardball. have , so the whole world looks different. the unbeatable strength of advil. what pain? t-mobile's newest signal reaches farther than ever before... with more engineers, more towers,

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welcome back to "hardball." as the house moves forward on hearing the case for impeaching president trump, the senate is already planning for the impeachment trial, one that could barrel right into the 2020 presidential primary season.

"the washington post" robert costa reports behind the scenes some of the president's advisers for privately discussing whether to stage a lengthy gop trial beginning in january to scramble the democratic presidential race potentially keeping six contenders in washington until the eve of the iowa caucuses or longer. some republicans seeatize a silver lining here as trapping elizabeth warren, bernie sanders and four other senators running for president in d.c. the senate impeachment trial of bill clinton in 1999 lasted nearly five weeks. if the senate operates in a similar time frame with a trump impeachment trial starting the week of say january 6th, on a monday, that would put it on a collision course with the iowa caucus and also the new hampshire primary the following week on tuesday, february 11th. in new hampshire on wednesday senator warren was asked about pausing her campaign. >> i have constitutional

responsibilities. i took an oath of office as did everyone in congress, and part of that oath of office is the basic principle that no one is above the law. that includes the president of the united states. and if the house goes forward and sends an impeachment for the senate, i will be there for the trial. >> but a senate trial won't affect the newest entry into the 2020 democratic field. and that's coming up. you're watching "hardball." and that's coming up you're watching "hardball. 're a. all the time. even if sometimes we're not. sundown vitamins. all clean. all the time. o♪ ozempic®! ♪ oh! oh! (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. oh! under 7? (announcer) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds.

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i love that the party has moved to the left. i love that we are the party of the woke. i believe that we also have to be the party of the still waking. >> wow. welcome back to "hardball." that's another one who joined the party here as former massachusetts governor deval patrick the newest entry into the democratic race. he launched his hail mary bid this morning before heading to new hampshire to file the paperwork just one day before the deadline in new hampshire. he explained why he's running and took some veiled shots -- they weren't very veiled -- at some of the other democrats. >> in many ways it felt to me in watching the race unfold, we're beginning to break into sort of camps of nostalgia on the one hand and sort of big ideas my

way or no way on the other. and i think we have to be careful how we bring people in, how we bring people along and how we yield to the possibility somebody else or even some other party may have a good idea, as good or better as our own. >> governor patrick ruled out a race last year citing family concerns, and he'll have an up hill climb to catch the rest of the field right now with less than three months before iowa. robert, what do you see here? first of all, put it all together. this guy's getting in. i don't know whether mike bloomberg is in or not. do you think he's an actual candidate yet, mike bloomberg? >> he hasn't had a formal announcement, but he's filing across the country in different states. and mayor bloomberg and governor patrick, they reflect lot of concern about where this primary process is going.

but it's a crowded space making the case against medicare for all, against an asset tax and a wealth tax. you have mayor buttigieg, vice president biden, senator cloep char, senator booker all now occupying the same space governor patrick is walking into. >> i noticed a seat change in this about two weeks ago, maybe 2 1/2 when people thought it was the same seats and they go after what was then and certainly may be the front-runner, elizabeth warren. they feel at the time to check out each other's program, the medicare for all, the funding of it. it's interesting buttigieg went right at her and biden went right at her. it seemed like there was a sense of pausing. in fact i think there was a pause. i think people are looking for opportunities right now. who else can we get in this thing? >> i don't know if people are looking for an alternative. i think in the democratic party we have 99 problems but another presidential candidate should not be one. i think what people are looking for is to really put meat on the bone who the democrats are going to be in 2020.

are we going to be the progressive party, the center left party or a remix of both? and i think that is what people are looking for and that is what we have yet to find. >> that's a hell of a decision. if the senate mulls an impeachment trial, it could extend right through the iowa caucuses of february 3rd and go thou the voting of new hampshire. robert, you're reporting on this. what is the argument because it seems to be fair if the senate cut the hearing down -- the trial down to two or three weeks the critics on the left will say they're giving it short shrift. so what's the argument? >> the argument is coming from different wings of the republican party. centrist republicans up in 2020 like senator susan collins were telling at the capitol this week they don't want to see it rushed or dismissed like senator rand paul and other trump allies are calling out for.

the clinton impeachment trial lasted five weeks back in 1999. at the same time they see a little bit of a political advantage if they have a longer trial that stretches into late january, even february next year. but they also don't want to be seen as partisan in their decision here on the trial because that's how they're blaming democrats in the house from being too partisan in republican view. >> these polls are getting interesting. likely iowa caucus goers released on tuesday this week, shows mayor pete buttigieg leading the field. already peaked 22 points, that's a 14 point jump since august. he's followed by former vice president joe biden down 19. he's going down 5 points. what's going on here? what you were saying a minute ago, there's a reconsideration where the party would position itself, center left or left. that's a hell of a decision yet to we made.

>> i think the voters will make that decision. i think sometimes we put too much emphasis on the early states the ball game does not begin until we get there because i think it's a reflection of who we are as democrats. >> that's not representative of the whole party. >> no, i think it's a true reflection of who will have a large say so in who our democratic nominee will be. >> 24% of the democratic vote electorate is african-american. down there, iowa has a much lower percentage, right? new hampshire has a minuscule percentage, right? you get to what? >> i think you get a real test case of where a large majority of the people who will decide who our nominee will be and similar demographics if not even more -- >> tuesday is going to be a hell of a day. that's going to be a good reflection of the party. up next, is the impeachment case reaching the hearts and minds of americans?

how far is it getting? it certainly is reaching the front pages of our newspapers. is it getting to people who are not following the news? that's my question. you're watching "hardball." e nes that's my question you're watching "hardball. (johnson) what is going on in here! i can't hear myself think! (grover) what does it look like, sir? i am here to help you with your water heater. (johnson) oh! [sighs defeatedly] (grover) do not worry sir. i also fix cars! [johnson groans] (bert) grover is a monster of many talents! (burke) and we covered it. at farmers, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. (bert) mmm. ♪ we are farmers. ♪ bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum hey allergy muddlers... achoo! ...do your sneezes turn heads? try zyrtec... ...it starts working hard at hour one... and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. zyrtec muddle no more.

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the majority of members of

the u.s. house of representatives are now presenting the case for the impeachment of president donald trump. that case began yesterday with two star witnesses giving evidence that donald trump dammed a bribe from a foreign head of state withholding vital military aide until that foreign leader agreed to investigate trump's political rivals. the case continues tomorrow as former u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch testifies about her personal experience of being pushed out of the way for trump and his people to carry out their extortion. then trump's then national security advisor compared to a drug deal. next week there will be more witnesses and most likely more after that. and if the front page stories and headlines of the country's newspapers offer a guide, the case against trump is being made. the question is whether the case is reaching the hearts and minds of those who don't regularly follow the news? and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. be sure to tune in tomorrow morning for special coverage of marie yovanovitch's testify.

i'm be anchoring alongside nicolle wallace starting at 9:00 a.m. eastern. and "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> the devastating testimony corroborated evidence of bribery. >> the speaker suggests a bribery charge for the president. >> quid pro quo, bribery. >> as still more evidence of that bribery is reported. >> i know-nothing about that. first time i've heard it. >> plus ahead of tomorrow's hearing, new reporting that the president discussed ukraine policy with rudy's indicted friend. then as impeachment proceeds over ukraine, new alarms about potential trump corruption with turkey. >> i have a major, major building in istanbul. it's called trump towers. and the growing calls for steven miller's resignation in the wake of a white nationalism fire storm. >> i'm going to say