transpired here on msnbc as we bring you the latest. >> and just a matter of moments we'll be hearing from the former ambassador of ukraine. marie yovanovitch will be testifying today. >> this is the second in a series of public hearings that the committee will be holding. the president in real-time is attacking you. what effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? >> well, it's very intimidating. >> marie yovanovitch has been seated. she'll be questioned by the staff lawyer for the republicans. >> president trump is clearly rattled. by both the credible and compelling testimony in today's impeachment hearing and the criminal conviction of his long-time associate, roger stone, found guilty on all seven counts of lying to witnesses and tampering in the mueller investigation. >> breaking news from the embassy staffer in ukraine who overheard the president's phone

call with ambassador gordon sondland, david holmes, who testified behind closed doors late today. >> that closed-door deposition of david holmes that started this afternoon just ended about six hours after it started. going late into the night tonight. david holmes' opening statement has been obtained by nbc news and it has rocked washington. >> in just hours, mark sandy, a long-time career employee at the white house office of management and budget is expected to break ranks and appear on capitol hill for a rare closed-door deposition. >> we have a team of reporters and analysts following the latest. the first big headline as we reported. another witness claiming he overheard the president on a phone call asking the u.s. ambassador to the eu, gordon sondland, about ukraine investigations we're talking about david holmes who worked at the u.s. embassy in ukraine and gave a deposition last night. here's how intel committee member democrat eric swalwell

describes the importance of the testimony. >> what exactly did mr. holmes see? what did he hear? and what did he do? you know it was the reason we called him in today. >> and who we have called in right now joining me, kevin cerilli, correspondent for bloomberg news, and abigail tracy and kevin give me the significance, share your thoughts on this overheard conversation between the president and gordon sondland. >> this is -- emerging to be the key moment in the public impeachment inquiry hearings. i was at both rounds of hearings this week and really, aside from the president responding in real-time via tweet to marie yovanovitch could be an article of impeachment in real-time, this really was the conversation in question. i was also at the white house when president trump was speaking alongside president

erdogan and he denied that that conversation ever took place. now that there apparently is a second individual who heard that, the details around that particular conversation, are what this is looking like. what this is all coming down to. >> so the tenor of all this? the holmes testimony, it certainly fits into the democrats' impeachment picture. do you think it has a smoking gun element to it, abigail? >> i think one of the keys moving forward at this point is for democrats to continue to link this to the president. they don't want this to be about ambassador sondland. they don't want it to be about rudy giuliani. they want it to be about donald trump. this gets them closer to that. i think they're trying to establish this narrative and sort of make this argument that this was the president who is directing these individuals to behavior in this way and push the ukrainians to try to make this public statement. and this piece is getting them closer to that. especially if there is this other individual who can testify and you know corroborate what david holmes said behind closed doors. >> the fact that it's an

overheard conversation? explain how much legal weight that has, versus how much political weight. are they the same? does one outweigh the others? particularly since republicans have mocked overheard conversations. >> they're talking about hearsay, it's a court rule, a rule of evidence that only applies in court and even in court it doesn't always apply. there are about 40 different exceptions to the hearsay rule even when you're in court. but we're not in court. so we step back out and we're somewhere where hearsay doesn't even apply. and citizens, observers and members of congress can just use their sensibilities to determine whether or not hearsay or second-hand conversations, are credible. sometimes the surrounding evidence, the circumstances, what people did, how they behaved after hearing a conversation can give rise to inferences about what was said. you can prove what was said on the conversation, even if you don't have an admission by the

person making the comment. but as we learned this week, it's shaping up that while we're waiting for gordon sondland who may have been one of the participants on the phone call. and you may have someone who may or may not have actually heard the conversation himself. that takes it more out of the realm and hearsay, and more into what we called a precip yent witness, someone who heard or saw the events. >> guys, there could be bigger news to come. this from mark sandy, the white house budget official, who will deliver a closed-door testimony later this morning. it's expected to be dramatic, i think, that's what is expected. how about you, kevin? what do you expect? >> this all comes down to whether or not $400 million was withheld from ukraine on the precedent that president volodymyr zelensky would look into joe biden andbiden. that's the argument here. i want to pick up on this notion of hearsay. because you know, it really is

going to come down to whether or not republicans break away from president trump and break away from devin nunes and jim jordan. and right now, you know i was up there all week, i was at the white house all week and i'm not hearing from any source, publicly, privately, that based off of the first week of hearings that republicans are prepared to break from the white house. >> that's interesting. well obviously they're stepping up to build upon, including the testimony from mark sandy. abigail, your take on that? >> here's a career official, similar to george kent, bill taylor and marie yovanovitch. he's one of the individuals who actually signed one of the appropriation documents about the hold on this military aid. and interestingly, over you know last week, on wednesday evening democrats had a closed-door meeting where they went over some polling. what they found was that the american public sort of understands what is going on in the impeachment inquiry in broad

terms. but they don't quite understand this military aid portion of it. so what democrats need to do is make that more salient. make them understand it and show them mark sandy who had this up-close relationship to the information and the hold to make that point and try to get that out into the public discourse around impeachment. >> okay, guys i want to go through a second headline we have. that being the take-aways from marie yovanovitch's testimony. among them were the consistent gop effort to counter the testimony and an accusation of witness intimidation against the president. take a listen. >> now the president in real-time is attacking you. what effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? >> well it's very intimidating. >> so abigail, i read your article about the impact of

yovanovitch's testimony. of the biggest moments, what do you think resonates the most, not just for now, but long-term? >> i think what marie yovanovitch did a really great job of explaining the role of a diplomat and a career official who serves in these posts, like in kiev. and what i saw yesterday as i was in touch with current and former diplomats throughout her testimony and they see her as a hero and sort of this voice of a beleaguered bureaucratic diplomatic corps. after she spoke they're viewing her as a hero, i woke up this morning to text messages from foreign service officers who are saying that all of their friends are sharing bits and pieces of her testimony and they view her as kind of the standard-bearer for what they represented, who they are. and her testimony was incredibly critical and sort of spreading this message as to what these officials do. and i think as we were talking about earlier, you saw at the end of her testimony, the sort of standing ovation from the public in the hearing room. that is highly astonishing and

highly unusual, that is not something you see every day. >> we were talking about that. so kevin let's listen to how intel chair at am schiff summarized marie yovanovitch's testimony. let's listen to that. >> this is a story about an effort to coerce, condition or bribe a foreign country into doing the dirty work of the president. while you are the beginning of this story, you're not the end of it. but nonetheless, the beginning is important. because the beginning of the story is an effort to get you out of the way. they felt you were an impediment to these political investigations, the president so desperately wanted. you were viewed as an obstacle that had to go. not just by jewell, bgiuliani, e president of the united states. >> is that what the democrats hope is the big take-away. >> you heard that from using quid pro quo to bribery. and just do pick up on something. marie yovanovitch, 33 years, 33

years she worked in public service as a career foreign services officer in both republican and democratic administrations. and that's a commonality that many of her colleagues all around the world who are serving america share. they, they're not just working for one political party. they're working to serve their country. that said, she has to play outside of the room. and republicans that the democrats will need in order to get them on their side for the issue of impeachment, have not sided with her. and the republican argument coming from president trump, in real-time during the hearing, as he was tweeting, is essentially, he's commander-in-chief, he feels he has the ability to hire and fire who he wants as he pleases. >> and you know, that's what i want to pick up on. the witness intimidation aspect of her testimony. schiff is telling her about the

president's tweet in real-time. do you characterize the president's tweet as intimidation from a legal perspective? second question here from an article of impeachment perspective, is that ready-made obstruction? >> first from the prosecutor's view, this could fit into federal laws that are broadly defined in terms of witness tampering. anyone who intimidates a witness before a proceeding, and that includes congressional proceedings, may be guilty of the crime. and it includes attempt. on the defense side, the president may argue that the first amendment protects his opinion. but the first amendment is not an absolute bargains criminal activity. and courts have routinely struck down first amendment defenses to witness intimidation or witness tampering cases. now as for the impeachment question, we know or actually there's some debate, but generally speaking, you don't need a crime for conduct to be impeachable. high crimes and misdemeanors is interpreted to mean a breach of

official power. and that's exactly what the framers were almost obsessed with. was corruption and corruption at the highest level. they didn't want a king, they wanted someone who would not abuse their power. and intimidating witnesses would be a breach of that official power. so the, be the house seeks to add that as an article, as part of their investigation, then they have grounds to do so. >> can i just say something really quick about that? you're setting the president up. just for, to put it in context, he could actually be impeached for a tweet. just to put that in context. that could be an actual article of impeachment, a tweet. >> to that end, danny, when you talked about witness intimidation, you said it's all written about what someone does before. i mean is there anything that talks about witness intimidation concurrent with that witness testifying? >> in fact -- that's happened. and you know this is not the first time social media has been

a part of witness intimidation. frankly in my personal experience, you mostly see it in street crimes. you see people posting on facebook or twitter, don't testify or snitches get stitches is a common refrain where i try cases. and it's exactly the same thing. it's just strange that now it's being done by the most powerful, most influential man in the world. >> i think strange is an understatement, but okay. kevin cirilli, abigail tracy and danny sevalos. guilty on all counts, roger stone. and new testimony from a key witness with first-hand knowledge of the president's call with sondland. how it could change the course of the impeachment inquiry. this.

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new questions today on the fate of long-time gop operative and trump adviser, roger stone. a federal jury in a washington, d.c. courtroom found stone guilty of witness tampering and lying to congress. prosecutors alleged stone lied to protect the president. joining me from capitol hill is msnbc garrett hake. stone faces what, sentencing, right? what do you know about that? and how this verdict came about. >> well he'll be a free man until february when he'll be sentenced. for stone he was convicted of lying to the house intelligence committee that then-republican

controlled house intelligence committee and six other charges related to his contacts with wikileaks during the 2016 campaign and during the trial prosecutors said that stone lied because the truth would be so damaging to his long-time friend, donald trump. >> sest proclaimed political dirty trickster roger stone left court on friday with a new title -- convicted felon. the jury found him guilty on all seven counts, lying to congress, witness tampering. still under a gag order, stone had no comment on friday, he downplayed the charges after his arrest in january. >> i believe this is a politically motivated investigation. >> the case against stone grew out of the mueller investigation. he was convicted of lying to a house committee about his efforts to back-channel with wikileaks about the hillary clinton campaign emails stolen by the russians. among the prosecution witnesses,

former trump strategist, steve bannon, bannon said stone bragged about his connections to bleeks. wikileaks. >> there was no getting away from the fact that he did lie to congress. >> the jury found him guilty of witness tampering. stone told a witness to act like a character in the godfather movie who is lies to congress. stone becomes the sixth trump associate quitted in mueller-related cases, joining michael flynn, paul manafort, rick gates, george papadopoulos and michael cohen. president trump tweeted a list of political enemy he is claims are liars and calls stone's conviction an historic double standard. stone will be a free man until his sentencing in february, he could face up to 20 years in prison, but as a first-time nonviolent offender, he'll likely end up with a more lenient sentence. stone could also receive a presidential pardon, something

that president trump has refused to rule out in the past. but since the verdict, no comment on that possibility from the white house. >> garrett haake, thank you for bringing us us to speed. more on the impeachment hearings and a key witness reportedly confirming he overheard the president asking about the ukraine investigation. his closed-door testimony wrapping last night. this after a compelling day of testimony from former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch, joining mes in nbc national security analyst jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the c.i.a. and department of defense. we're going to start with the new private testimony from u.s. embassy official david holmes. he has described first-hand knowledge of that call between the president and eu ambassador gordon sondland. how damaging is this development for the president and his defenders? >> one thing important to note is that the president's defenders have repeatedly said that this is all hearsay. this is all second-hand information. that none of the witnesses have

actually heard the president's own voice say that he was demanding an investigation of joe biden. now along comes this career foreign service officer, a professional, david holmes and he says, no, i did hear the president's own voice and i heard it on july 26th. i was working in ukraine, in the embassy and i was with ambassador gordon sondland when he spoke to the president by phone. the president was speaking loud enough so people in the restaurant could hear from gordon sondland's cell phone. he said i heard the president say how are those investigations going? and sondland reassured the president that yes, president zelensky is going to do those investigations of your political rival. >> you've got from my understanding, apparently the president was speak sog loudly that gordon sondland pulled the phone away from his ear to some extent. that would have allowed the voice to be overheard. let's talk from a security perspective. are there any circumstances when a personal call to the president

about a top aide like this, a cafe in ukraine makes sense to you? >> it's a huge operational security risk. normally when a u.s. ambassador is in a country and going to be communicating with any official in washington, of course including the president, they would do so from a secure facility, probably the embassy, or certainly on a secure phone. and in this case, obviously all of that operational security went out the window. the president was speaking so loudly it was on a cell phone, there were about 15 different security violations. that you might do it if it was an emergency. if there was really no other alternative. but here of course it seems like it was just because sondland wanted to talk to the president and say hey, boss, i've got those investigations you've been asking me to get for you. >> you've got to expect that with this testimony next week, he's going to have to say this. >> i've always thought that gordon sondland's testimony was a highly risky proposition for him.

even if you want to maintain the line that there was no direct quid pro quo, there was no direct link between the investigations and the military aid, at the very least sondland was going to have to cop to the fact that the president directed him to pursue those investigations of a political rival. which is unprecedented for an american president to do. >> there was another big development to discuss with you, jeremy. the president tweeted about marie yovanovitch right during her testimony. here's how house intelligence chair adam schiff reacted to that. >> you saw today witness intimidation in real-time by the president of the united states. once again going after this dedicated and respected career public servant. in an effort to not only chill her, but to chill others from coming forward. we take this kind of witness intimidation very seriously. >> how significant was that moment in your view?

>> i think it was very significant. ambassador yovanovitch was telling a chilling story. she was saying she was at the embassy in ukraine and she was honoring posthumously, someone who had found corruption in ukraine and who had been murdered by pro russian corrupt forces in ukraine. during that ceremony, honoring the anti-corruption fighter. she received an ominous phone call from washington saying your security is in jeopardy, you better get home. she was cleared out of that job, fired, harassed and deny graded by the president. and while she is sayi ining she stood up to that intimidation here comes the president real-time, continuing the intimidation of her. it was a pivotal moment. an emotional moment of these impeachment hearings. >> perhaps surprising or not, given the nature of who was speaking there were republicans who called it out and said the

president did himself no favors in regard to witness intimidation, is there any way that this can be spun in any way other than witness intimidation in your mind? >> the president's defenders will of course say he tweets all the time. he likes to fight back, he's a counterpun counterpuncher. if it wasn't witness intimidation to ambassador yovanovitch, it was a clear signal to future witnesses, that you better fall in line with the president or you will face consequences. >> thank you for joining us, jeremy bash. for the first time britain's prince andrew answers questions about his link to jeffrey epstein. and he'sen about an nfl mariah, but colin kaepernick gets a chance at a comeback today. is he getting a fair shot? it is nice.

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tower fired fans ran from the bleachers, players rushing off the field. two people are hospitalized with serious injuries. police have recovered a weapon, but not made an arrest. the suspected gunman in the southern california high school shooting died friday after being treated for a self-inflicted gunshot wound. he opened fire at his high school, killing two students and injuring three others. students and their families attending a prayer service share their disbelief at what happened. >> he's calling me. and he said -- mom, i had to run. i'm running because there's a shooter. >> investigators still do not have a motive for that attack. with just days from execution, rodney reed's scheduled death sentence was put on hold. a texas court put it on delay in claims of new testimony be

heard. and check this out, a bizarre crash leaves two planes entangled in a san antonio, texas airport on friday. the plane landing from san jose collided into a parked plane while taxiing on the runway. investigators say the pilot reported a fuel leak. no one was hurt. let's turn to the football field in just hours former san francisco 49ers quarterback colin kaepernick will be taking part in a private workout in atlanta in which all nfl teams have been invited to attend. nbc's blaine alexander is live for us from flowery branch, georgia, what do we expect to come from the workout today? >> we know we can expect something that's closed to the media. we're not going to be allowed to go inside. we know he'll go through a number of drills. and we know that the nfl has said aside from the teams who have confirmed they will be here, they will make the video from the drills, the practice,

as well as an interview of kaepernick will make those tapes available to all 32 teams in the league. a lot of eyes on the star quarterback here in flowery branch. it comes as the nfl and fans are reeling from another incident, a separate incident involving different players and an unbelievable fight on the field. >> gosh that's one of the worst things i've ever seen on a professional sports field. >> it was the football brawl that shocked the league this morning the nfl is handing down one of the harshest penalties ever. suspending miles garrett indefinitely. with eight seconds left in thursday's game between long-time rivals the cleveland browns and the pittsburgh steelers, a tackle between garrett and quarterback mason rudolph. garrett ripped off his opponent's helmet and used it to slam rudolph in the head. he had just returned after suffering a concussion earlier

in the season. fellow players, stunned. >> he could have killed him. what if he would have hit him in the temple. >> even garrett was apologetic. >> i made a mistake, i lost my cool. i regret it. >> both teams fined $250,000 and two other players are facing lesser suspensions. those ejections coming as another big name is trying to get back into the game. this team's photo shows colin kaepernick arriving in atlanta where he'll take part in an unprecedented private workout. organized by the nfl and open to all 32 teams, sidelined for nearly three years, he ignited a firestorm by kneeling during the national anthem in 2016. a protest against social injustice and police brutality. kaepernick has played clear he's ready to return, tweeting this week -- i've been in shape and ready for this for three years. >> he said that he is ready. this is a shot that he's been wanting, so he has to do this.

>> now alex there's been a lot of conversation and some questions arising from people wondering whether this is a legitimate shot at a return for kaepernick, or other people saying that it possibly this is just an nfl pr stunt. another big question that's been bubbling is why exactly now? why the timing of this? well there's certainly talk that rapper jay-z could have had a hand in this with i had newly minted partnership with the nfl. >> we'll see what comes from this. thank you so much. so overseas now for the first time britain's prince andrew is speaking, breaking his silence and speaking out about his friendship with jeffrey epstein. the accused sex trafficker found dead in his new york city jail cell over the summer. kelly cobiella has more. >> prince andrew said he let down the royal family. >> we try and uphold the highest standards of practices and i let the side down.

simple as that. >> the queen's second son sitting down with what the bbc called a no holds barred interview about his relationship with disgraced financier jeffrey epstein. the duke of york was caught on camera at epstein's mansion after epstein was designated a sex offender. >> i stayed with him that's the bit that -- as it were, i kick myself for on a daily basis. because it was not something that was becoming of a member of our family. >> the duke flatly denied epstein set him up years before with virginia roberts, pictured here with the duke when she was 17. roberts told savannah guthrie she was directed to have sexual encounters with the prince three times, first at a home in london. >> the abuse went on for a little bit in the bathroom and then it continued to the bedroom and he wasn't rude or anything about it. he said you know, thank you. >> your response? >> i have no recollection of ever meeting this lady.

none whatsoever. >> you don't remember meeting her? >> no. >> he knows the truth and i know the truth. >> prince andrew tries to put allegations the palace has called false and without foundation to rest for good. kelly cobiella, nbc news, london. a standing ovation for marie yovanovitch, how she responded real-time to a twitter insult from the president. msnbc and the "washington post" host of the next democratic debate live from atlanta, our moderators will ask the top ten candidates what voters need to know. wednesday 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. (ernie) lost rubber duckie? (burke) you mean this one? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover?

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to the impeachment drama on capitol hill. more unfolding today in just hours. it could be this moment with ambassador yovanovitch that leaves an indelible mark on the proceedings. >> and now the president in real-time is attacking you. what effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? >> well it's very intimidating. >> designed to intimidate, is it not? >> i mean i can't speak to what the president is trying to do, but i think the effect is to be intimidating. >> joining me now, former

ambassador to the u.n. nancy soderberg, she also served as deputy national security adviser to president clinton and was the third ranked at the national security council, the heart of policy making at the white house. with those credentials i very much welcome you. i know that you've met marie yovanovitch, as you watched this, what struck but the way she handled this very awkward position in which she was put? >> well thanks for having me. i think ambassador yovanovitch epitomizes the best of our foreign service. who get up every day, do a job and defend the constitution and what you're seeing is this parade of career patriots, really. stating the facts as they see them. they're refusing to fall into this false narrative being put forward by the president and his supporters. and they're just stating the facts. and i think the republicans are going to have to decide are they going to continue to try and obfuscate, or are they going to just eventually have to say, it

was okay for the president of the united states to try and bribe the ukrainians for his personal and political gain. and it's ultimately going to come down to that question. and they're going to have to vote on it. i think our hats go off and we all are grateful to ambassador yovanovitch, we're going to hear today from a very courageous omb staffer from the white house. who is going to be testifying against the opposition of his boss. the president of the united states. and eventually, the pieces of the puzzle are all being laid out. it's not very complicated puzzle. but these officials are bringing to vibrant color the kind of black-and-white story we had seen from the closed-door testimony. and now it's coming out in living color and the republicans are going to have to answer that question. >> what's so interesting about the president's tweet, the timing. it came after yovanovitch said she had felt threatened by the president's own words in the white house memo of the trump/zelensky phone call. let's take a watch of this. >> it was a terrible moment. a person who saw me actually

reading the transcript said that the color drained from my face. i think i even had a physical reaction. >> what were you concerned about? >> she's going to go through some things. it didn't sound good. it sounded like a threat. >> did you feel threatened? >> i did. >> is there anything normal about a president targeting an ambassador in this way? is there anything fair about it? >> no. and i mean i've worked in the government for many decades as a political appointee. and we all rely on the wisdom and guidance of the career foreign service officers, the military. people, millions of them who get up every day and frankly do their job. and i think it's reprehensible that this career public servant is being really intimidated by the most powerful person on earth. it's wrong. even the president's supporters

yesterday couldn't defend that tweet. you had everyone saying let's put that tweet aside. i think it's ill-advised for him to do it. i think it's going to be fed right into the articles of impeachment that the house is currently touting and i think the one real missing voice in this, in addition to the republicans' questioning ambassador yovanovitch yesterday is the secretary of state. >> i knew it, i knew that's where you were going to go. look, yovanovitch said so, that the secretary of state, nobody from the state department, that includes mike pompeo, did not defend her against the false attacks, the smears from rudy giuliani. and i do want to take a listen to someone who is going to concur with what you're about to say. that's the former fbi chief of staff, church rosenberg. here's what he had to say about that. take a listen. >> his silence is deafening, it is an act of abject cowardice, i am astonished that somebody who went to west point and was an

army officer does not have the spine to stand up for the people in his organization who are being denigrated by this president. that silence, is deafening and disgusting. >> what is going on behind the scenes with pompeo, ambassador? do you think he played some sort of role facilitating this ukraine back channel? >> i think he's gone along with it. i think we have, i mean you've got rudy giuliani, a bunch of goons from the ukrainian oligarch corrupt regime that was basically draining the oil money out. funded by apparently this really oligarch controlled by putin in vienna. and they've let that sort of parallel process go on to frankly push the career people aside, push a false narrative about the ukrainians non-invost involvement in the 2016

election. i think pompeo want to stay in the president's good favor so he can have his support when he runs for the senate. i think he's biding his time until he can get out and go run for the senate and keep the president on his side. versus doing his job, defending the men and women who work for him at the state department. he's going to be held accountable for that and he has a tough decision to make, which side is he going to be on. >> former ambassador to the u.n., nancy soderberg, so glad to speak to you about all of this. come see us again. roger stone is the sixth trump aide to be convicted in cases stemming from the mueller investigation. next sam nunberg in what we've learned about the case against president trump.

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political ally's conviction for lying to congress aon double standard. before the verdict the president would not rule out the possibility ofhe pardoning roge stone.ng joining meer on set, sam nunber. >> thank you for having me. >> i know you have in particular withve roger stone, you've call him a surrogate father. your relationship, take us through nsthat. your relationship with him through everything, during the mueller probe, you speaking with him after the guilty verdict was delivered. >>ty i have not spoken him afte the guilty verdict. i've not spoken to roger since mid 2017. that was i fell for roger's own good. i think i was right in terms of the witnesser intimidation chars ofti which he was found guilty yesterday, whichil i don't thin he should have. >> why not? >> he was w indicted, they brout seven counts, against him.

the last was about comments he made to randy. and randy said in cross-examination to believe that roger was going to do anything to randy's dog, he had made some kind of threat. i don't believe that roger was really conniving or colluding with him. the bottom line is they mishandled this from the very beginning. roger was not in the position -- by the way, i do believe roger spoke to the trump campaign. i do believe roger spoke directly to donald strump. the problem is is that donald trump cannot have somebody saying to him -- cannot have somebody publicly saying, yes, we spoke about wikileaks, however it's not a criminal conspiracy, we didn't coordinate with russia, wepi had nothing t do with the releases, nothing to do strategically with the releases. instead donald will make everybody else go and lie with

him. he wouldo have been in a very d situation had roger said from a political point of view, had roger said yes, i spoke with trump about wikileaks.ok and i do believe they did speak about it. >> so you believe that roger stone wasbe lying. so on those counts you don't necessarily agree with the witness tampering guilty verdict -- >> i don't believe it should have been brought because this is, once again, selective. why did they have to bring this? there was no underlying criminal conspiracy. therefore, whatever roger said, i don't think his lawyers argued very well, it was immaterial. it was immaterial to the investigation. it did not make a difference. the issue was did the trump campaign coordinate and collude with russia. did theyud actually tell russia instruct russia, that's my opinion on it. i'mn sure your new colleague, andrew weisman, was arguing for criminal conspiracy and they couldn't get it, couldn't get

it. >> this is a man again who you said is a surrogate father. do you think he had at all regrets lying to congress? >> no. i'll tell you why. because he feels twofold. he has an undying loyalty to donald. i don't think it'slt deserved. i don't think anybody should have an undying loyalty to donald. >> why does he havelt that loyalty? >> you can talk to him about it. i argued with him about it during the campaign. i looked at the grand jury and said roger committed to crimes, by the way. i instructed roger, i argued to roger for three reasons, i said i understand you want the publicity. don't do this, one, because hillary clinton at that point, it looked like she was going to win, you're going to be in big trow trouble, james comey is investigating you and if donald wins, he'll -- a lot of people will be upset if he does not

pardon him. he already pardoned scooter libby. he understands presidents in general have pardoned their counterparts before. >> i -- you think he will -- >> i think he should but he won't. i'll have a problem if roger is in jail and a certain person is fly around with him in air force one. he a low life from new hampshire, a hint. if donald has said consistently that thisha investigation was bogus, that the lawyers, the investigators were democrats, that they werest biased, that ty were looking to undue the election, he should. >> do you feel theel same about paul manafort? >> no. thank you for reminding me. i almost forgot to say it.

roger's charges, let's be clear, seven counts direct live relalyo this investigation, like scooter libby. nothing like gates with financial issues, nothing like flynn, with work he did outside for donald. >> rick gates, george papadopoulos. >> michael cohen is in jail because he committed tax fraud, didn't pay taxes for four years. there's nothing he hthat has to with anything he did for donald. >> f good point. >> do the d.o.j. people feel it's fair? no. too bad. >> sam numberg, always good to have you. >>to thank you.

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we're all out of time for this hour. i'll see you again at noon eastern time. now time for "up" with david gura. this is "up." i'm david gura in washington where long-time employees expected to testify on capitol