killed break because i wanted to keep the conversation going but then i came to you early. >> it's a tightrope every night, baby. well done, my friends. thanks, guys. thanks to you at home for joining us here on this fine friday night. i will tell you there are a bunch of moving parts in the news right now and we're just going to take it one piece at a time, one step at a time. with the full and full-hearted expectation that more news will break over the course of this hour. you know it will. right? i mean, that has generally been our experience on friday nights over the course of the trump administration. but today and tonight already it has just been relentless. so let's just jump in. we've got a whole show prepared. i'm sure it's all about to go out the window. obviously, today was the second public hearing of the impeachment proceedings against president trump. we're going to talk about that in detail tonight. in terms of the latest news, though, i do need to mention that as soon as the public hearing wrapped up today with

u.s. ambassador marie yovanovitch, immediately thereafter, the impeachment committee started taking a closed-door deposition from another new witness. the public hearings, like the ones we saw with ambassador yovanovitch today, those are supposed to be the sort of second phase of the impeachment proceedings. but apparently, as more of the story is becoming known to the public and to the investigators and as more witnesses are coming forward, you know, the impeachment committees are having to sort of figure out what to do with new folks who are relevant to the investigation that they're still proceeding with. so they're discovering new witnesses. they are then arranging testimony from these new witnesses. and in order to do that, they're basically going back behind closed doors to take initial close-door depositions from these new witnesses before deciding whether they, too, will go on to be part of any public proceedings. so yovanovitch wrapped today at this public hearing.

but then immediately after that, the impeachment committees, not just the intelligence committee, but also foreign affairs and oversight, they went back behind closed doors at the secure conference room at the capitol to take a close door deposition from david holmes. now, david holmes is a career foreign service officer. we heard about him for the first time, though not by name, at the first public impeachment hearing that happened this week when ambassador bill taylor broke this surprise news. >> last friday, a member of my staff told me of events that occurred on july 26th. in the presence of my staff at a restaurant, ambassador sondland called president trump and told him of his meetings in kyiv. the member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations. ambassador sondland told president trump the ukrainians were ready to move forward. following the call with president trump, the member of my staff asked ambassador

sondland what president trump thought about ukraine. ambassador sondland responded that president trump cares more about the investigations of biden, which giuliani was pressing for. at the time, i gave my deposition on october 22nd, i was not aware of this information. i'm including it here for completeness. >> so we learn of that story just a couple of days ago. and ambassador bill taylor's testimony at the first impeachment hearing, right? it's kind of a dramatic reveal. a member of his staff coming forward to tell him of something that the ambassador didn't know about before. which is that there had been a phone call between president trump personally and ambassador gordon sondland, who called the president from a restaurant in ukraine on his cell phone on july 26th, the day after president trump had that call with the ukrainian president. that's the call that has basically led to these impeachment proceedings. in that call on july 26th, taylor's staff member says he was able to hear the president on that phone inquiring

personally about those investigations that he was pressing ukraine for. well, there's been a quick turnaround in terms running that story to ground. and so now, today, that staffer that was referenced in bill taylor's testimony two days ago, that staffer, has now been brought to capitol hill and today he gave his close-door deposition. and credit to cnn's excellent congressional correspondent who was first to obtain a copy of the opening statement that david holmes gave in that close-door deposition today. you can see it here. it's obviously a photo copy of a folded sheet that contained his -- his opening statement. he obtained this cnn, posted it, and it's a doozy. i will warn you there is a couple of swears here eventually. i'm not going to say the swear words but if you're disturbed by knowing where they are, you should know they're coming. first, let me read you what david holmes says is basically his explanation as to why he's coming forward at this late point in the process. he says quote, as the current

impeachment inquiry has progressed, i have followed press reports and reviewed the statements of ambassador taylor and ambassador yovanovitch. based on my experience in ukraine, my recollection is generally consistent with their testimony and i believe the relevant facts were, therefore, being laid out for the american people. however, in the last week or so, i read press reports expressing for the first time that certain senior officials may have been acting without the president's knowledge in their dealing. and suggesting that the only evidence being elicited at the hearings was hearsay. i came to realize, homes says, that i had first-hand knowledge regarding certain events on july 26th that had otherwise not been reported and that those events potentially bore on the question of whether the president, in fact, had knowledge that those officials were using the levers of our diplomatic power to induce the new ukrainian president to announce the opening of a particular criminal investigation. it is at that point that i made the observation to ambassador taylor that the incident i had

witnessed had inquired greater significance, which is what he reported earlier this week. that's why holmes is saying this is why i'm coming forward. i realized what i know i thought was consistent with what you already heard. but then i realized i actually know something that other people don't and that other people are saying, you know, isn't the way this all went down. you need to know about this thing that i know. now, as to this july 26th call, the way bill taylor described it in his testimony two days ago i think actually sort of underplays it compared to what david holmes just described to the impeachment committees today at least as far as his opening statement. we've got that now. and again, what he's describing here in time, this is late july. july 25th, president trump makes that call to the ukrainian president, right? the day after that, a delegation of u.s. officials, including am ba bass dor gordon sondland, and

the president inexplicably assigned him to work on ukraine instead. this witness who testified today, david holmes, they went into a high-level meeting with the ukrainian government, including a meeting with president zelensky just one day after president zelensky had that call with president trump. and at that point, david holmes said he hadn't himself had a readout as to what happened during the call the previous day between trump and zelensky. but zelensky the following day said president trump had three times raised some very sensitive issues and that he would have to follow up on those issues when they met in person. holmes said quote not having received a readout of the july 25th call i did not know what those sensitive issues were. i was told to join another meeting with ambassador sondland. when that meeting ended, the two staffers and i accompanied ambassador sondland out of the

presidential administration building and into the embassy vehicle. ambassador sondland said he wanted to go to lunch. i told ambassador sondland i'd be happy to join if he wanted to brief me on his meetings or discuss other issues. ambassador sondland said that i should join. the two staffers joined for lunch as well. the for of us went to a nearby restaurant and sat on an outdoor terrace. at first, the lunch was largely social. ambassador sondland selected a bottle of wine that he shared among the four of us and we discussed topics such as marketing strategies for his hotel business. at which point, i interject with narra narrator voice. your taxpayer dollars at work, right? ambassador talking about marketing strategies for his hotel business. then here's the part that bill taylor brought to the attention of the impeachment committees. during the lunch, ambassador sondland said he was going to call president trump to give him an update.

ambassador sondland placed the call on his mobile phone and i heard him announce himself several times along the lines of gordon sondland holding for the president. it appears he was being transferred through several layers of switch boards and assistants. i understood that he had been connected to president trump. while ambassador sondland's phone was not on speaker phone, i could hear the president's phone through the earpiece of the phone. the president's voice was very loud and recognizable. and ambassador sondland held the phone away from his ear for a period of time, presumably because of the loud volume. i heard ambassador sondland greet the president and explain that he was calling from kyiv. i heard president trump then clarify that ambassador sondland was in ukraine. ambassador sondland replied, yes, he was in ukraine. and went on to state that president zelensky -- forgive me here -- went on to state that president zelensky quote, loves your ass. i said i wasn't gonna say the swear word and then i just did.

i'm sorry. holmes continues i then heard president trump ask so he's going to do the investigation? ambassador sondland replied that he's gonna do it. adding that president zelensky quote, will do anything you ask him to. even though i did not take notes on these statements, i have a clear recollection that these statements were made. i believe that my colleagues were sitting at the table also knew that ambassador sondland was speaking with the president. which would mean there are two more witnesses who can attest to the fact that this happened. david holmes then describes some of the other things that happened on that conversation he could overhear between gordon sondland and president trump, including naturally a reference to the kardashians? long story. we'll talk about that some other time. but then there's this. he says quote, after the call ended, ambassador sondland remarked that the president was in a bad mood. as ambassador sondland stated is often the case early in the morning. i then took the opportunity to ask ambassador sondland for his

candid impression of the president's views on ukraine. in particular, i asked ambassador sondland if it was true that the president did not give a -- that the president did not -- that the president did not give a shoot about ukraine. he didn't say shoot. i asked why not? and ambassador sondland stated that the president only cares about quote, big stuff. i noted that there was big stuff going on in ukraine, like a war with russia. ambassador sondland replied that he meant big stuff that benefits the president, like the biden investigation that mr. giuliani was pushing. the conversation then moved on to other topics. again, that's from the opening statement from foreign service officer david holmes, which was obtained and first published tonight by cnn. that witness both corroborating the testimony we've heard thus far from witnesses like

ambassadors bill taylor and marie yovanovitch but also directly quoting the president in a conversation in which the president appears to have been checking up on his man in ukraine to inquire as to the progress of these investigations into the bidens. that he was leaning on that foreign government to provide him. the president pressuring that foreign government to do those investigations, of course, because of the domestic political benefit he thought they would provide him here at home. and that, of course, is the core issue for which the president is now being impeached. david holmes' testimony and presumably any further corroborating testimony on this matter that we may get from those other two alleged witnesses who were sitting there listening to that call as well or maybe even from ambassador gordon sondland himself who is scheduled to testify next week, that testimony, i mean, it all puts the president squarely and personally in the role of not only running this operation for which he's being impeached. but personally checking in on its progress as the pressure

campaign was at its apex. so i mean, that's all happened. that's all come out tonight. since the yovanovitch testimony at this dramatic hours' long hearing today. i should also tell you tomorrow there's going to be another close-door deposition. for the first time, an official from the white house office of management and budget is going to be testifying. we believe that the official who's going to testify tomorrow from omb will be able to describe what appears to have been a strange process inside the white house in which somebody decided that the career expert officials in charge of tracking something, like military aid to ukraine, those career expert officials were taken out of the process of releasing or holding the military aid to ukraine. those career officials were replaced, instead, by a trump political appointee who had been the executive director of the wisconsin republican party.

until now, there has been no public reporting -- excuse me -- until now, there has been public reporting but no testimony to the impeachment inquiry that the reason the white house may have had to do that, the reason they may have had to take those career technicratic officials out of this because of a beliefy the career officials that this president putting a hold on the military aid for ukraine was something that was actually illegal. that is why the white house apparently had to take out of the loop these career officials because those career officials knew and expressed that would be illegal so they had to take those people out of the mix. and instead, stick a political appointee in there who would apparently be happy to do it. so that career omb staffer is going to testify in a close-door deposition tomorrow. i don't know ifwe we're going t get an opening statement from that official the way we did from david holmes tonight but stay tuned.

impeachment is not stopping for the weekend. it's not even stopping for tonight. but we are starting to recognize consistent sort of dynamics at work in the way the president tried to pull off this scheme. the way public officials, pusblc servants, who would have -- who wouldn't go along with it -- had to be taken off the job. or had to be otherwise sidelined. so this scheme to pressure ukraine for the president's benefit could go ahead. >> i don't know if you had a chance to watch george kent's testimony yesterday but would you agree with his assessment that if you fight corruption, you're going to piss off some corrupt people? >> yes. >> do you anger some of the corrupt leaders in ukraine? >> yes. >> was one of those corrupt people prosecutor general lutsenko? >> yes, i believe so. >> and was it mr. lutsenko among

others who coordinated with mr. giuliani to peddle false accusations against you, as well as the bidens. >> yes, that is my understanding. >> were these smears also amplified by the president's son, donald trump jr., as well as a certain host on fox? >> yes. yes, that is the case. >> in the face of this smear campaign, did colleagues at the state department try to get a state of support from you for secretary pompeo? >> yes. >> were they successful? >> no. >> did you come to learn they couldn't issue such a statement because they feared it would be undercut by the president? >> yes. >> and then were you told that though you had done nothing wrong, you did not enjoy the confidence of the president and could no longer serve as ambassador? >> yes, that is correct. >> and in fact, you flew home from kyiv on the same day as the inauguration of ukraine's new

president? >> that's true. >> that inauguration was attended by three who have been the three amigos, ambassador sondland, volker, and perry was it? >> yes. >> and three days after that inauguration in a meeting with president trump, are you aware that the president designated these three amigos to coordinate ukraine policy with rudy giuliani? >> since then, i have become aware of that. >> this is the same rudy giuliani who orchestrated the smear campaign against you? >> yes. >> and the same rudy giuliani who during the now-infamous july 25th phone call, the president recommended to zelensky in the context of the two investigations the president wanted into the 2016 election and the bidens? >> yes. >> yes. so yeah. they needed, you know, they need the -- the -- the career official at the white house budget office who realizes they're going to do -- they're trying to do an illegal hold on military aid to ukraine. yeah. they need that official out of there. instead, put in a political ate

pointee. he'll do it. similarly, they need ambassador marie yovanovitch, 33-year foreign service veteran, serious person, right, they need marie yovanovitch, patriot, out of there. so they pull together this kind of kabal of slime merchants to cook up wild false allegations against her and then once she's out of there, they instead install the president's guys to move in and make sure ukraine gets the full brunt of the pressure campaign. they've got to get trump those investigations to help him for 2020. and -- and there's the president, you know, on the phone to one of those guys. am i getting my investigations? yes, sir, mr. president, they're going to give you anything you want. that's what he wants to know because that's the big stuff. that's the big stuff that benefits him and that's what he's using ukraine for. and so yeah, of course, you've got to get somebody like marie yovanovitch out of there.

she's not going to play these reindeer games. you've got to get her out of the way so your guys can come in and take that situation and take that situation over in order to pull off this scheme to upend everything the united states is doing in accordance with u.s. policy and u.s. interests in that country to instead turn it all to the president's domestic political benefit. >> the last time you were in ukraine was may 20th of this year, right? >> yes. >> in his opening statement, ambassador taylor said he took charge in ukraine on june 17th. >> yes. >> therefore, there was almost a one-month gap between the time you departed and when taylor took over. right? >> yes. yes. >> during that time, on may 20th, ambassador sondland, rick perry and others came to the inauguration of president zelensky, right? >> yes. >> and during that gap in time,

ambassador sondland visited the white house, along with others, and got directions from president trump to talk to rudy. those were his words. talk to rudy about what to do in ukraine, right? >> that's my understanding. >> in other words, isn't it the case that your departure and the one-month gap between the time you left and when ambassador taylor arrived provided the perfect opportunity for another group of people to basically take over ukraine policy. isn't that right? >> yeah. >> ambassador, you're going to have to speak a little louder into the mic. >> yes. yes. >> yes. yeah. they had to get her out of there. they had to run this smear campaign against her. get her yanked out of there. so that the trump guys, who are willing to take direction from rudy giuliani and take direction from the president about getting those investigations and in the case of gordon sondland, by his

own admission, the guys who were willing to tell ukraine that they weren't going to get their military aid unless they coughed that stuff up. those guys had to get in there, which meant ambassador marie yovanovitch had to get out. >> if you had remained ambassador to ukraine, would you have recommended to the president of the united states that he asked the new ukrainian president to investigate, and i'm quoting from the transcript here, crowd strike or the server? >> no. i would repeat once again that the u.s. intelligence community has concluded that it was the russians. >> okay. so, ambassador, if you had remained as ambassador and not been dismissed, would you have supported a three-month delay in congressionally mandated military aid to ukraine? >> no. >> ambassador, if you had remained as ambassador of

ukraine, would you have recommended to the president that he ask a new president of ukraine to quote, find out about biden's son? >> no. >> i have no more questions. i yield back the balance of my time. >> yeah. she wouldn't have done any of those things. she wouldn't have stood for any of those things so they had to get her out of there. which would have worked perfectly except for the fact that people like that, people who have had to be abjected from the normal course so that the president's guys could come in and do what the president needed to be done regardless whether it was illegal, the people who got ejected from that process, whether they're the career staffers in the budget office or the career ambassador of the embassy, those people are real people who are alive and who will respond to subpoenas when lawfully subject to compulsory process by an impeachment proceeding.

now, there were a couple other things that were either brand new at this hearing today or that intruded on the hearing from outside. they were both big surprises. one of these cases, it made me get up off my couch and jump up and down and call everybody that i know. but for those, coming up. stay with us. lots to come tonight. ay with us lots to come tonight -excuse me. uh... do you mind...being a mo-tour? -what could be better than being a mo-tour? the real question is... do you mind not being a mo-tour? -i do. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive.

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dramatic impeachment hearing, an external event intruded upon the

hearing. it was about 10:00 a.m. this morning eastern time when the president himself made a statement online attacking ambassador marie yovanovitch even as she testified. and that, of course, is sort of the president's m.o., right? this is one of his favorite ways to derail the news when things are not going his way. he just grabs the nearest third rail and says something so outrageous, deliberately outrageous, that people in good faith and in good conscience, can't ignore it. and people stop talking about whatever was going on in the news he was trying to distract from and instead they turn to the president's latest outrageous statement and talk about that. if this president was a pony and he had to be reduced to one trick, that would be his one pony trick. like, that's the closest thing he has to a superpower. but when president tried that one trick pony trick today, it went wrong for him in a couple of important ways.

>> ambassador, you've shown the courage to come forward today and testify. notwithstanding the fact you were urged by the white house or state department not to. notwithstanding the fact that as you testified earlier, the president implicitly threatened you in that call record. and now, the president real time is attacking you. what effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? >> well, it's very intimidating. >> it's designed to intimidate, is it not? >> i -- i mean, i can't speak to what the president is trying to do. but i think the effect is to be intimidating. >> well, i want to let you know, ambassador, that some of us here

take witness intimidation very, very seriously. >> part of the reason this standard trump attention trick of saying something outrageous and diverting everybody's attention to what was going on to instead pay attention to what outrangs thing he has said or done, part of the reason i think this went a little pear shaped for the president today is because, number one, impeachment hearing is not a news cycle. it's a real thing. and the president may have just earned himself a new stand alone article of impeachment today for witness intimidation by having the gull to do this in the middle of public testimony that was in part about the way this president has mi-- i mean,i thi the president's not used to, you know, like accountability. so that was hard. the other reason it went wrong for the president today, though is just karmic bad timing because within the hour of that happening in that hearing room,

a jury sitting in a federal court in washington, d.c. finished up their deliberations, filed back into a courtroom, and handed to the judge this verdict. this verdict sheet. these two pages are the verdict sheet they handed over to the judge today. this verdict against the president's most long-standing political advisor, roger stone. and as you can see there, the jury was asked to consider seven felony counts against mr. stone. their decision on those counts was guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. and in some ways, this verdict is sort of tempting to see it as yet another trump campaign figure going to prison. or at least awaiting -- at least another one of them awaiting sentence after being convicted or pleading guilty to felony charges. they're going to name a wing after them at some point. his deputy campaign chairman to his foreign policy advisor to his lawyer, now to this guy too.

it is tempting to just add this new seven-count felony conviction today to the pile. but it was also impossible to avoid the fact today that the -- the felony for which roger stone is now facing the most jail time of these seven felonies which he was convicted today, the one for which he's looking at a potential 20-year maximum prison sentence is the crime of witness tampering. it was count seven today against roger stone. a violation of 18 u.s. code section 15-12 b subsection 1. we the members of the jury unanimously find mr. stone guilty. one of the most damning elements in the mueller report was the evidence that the president had tried to tamper with witnesses. in the russia case, including michael cohen, paul manafort, and others. he couldn't bring criminal charges against the president for that behavior or anything else. but the impeachment inquiry is not constrained in the same way. so within the hour that the president is hearing from the head of the impeachment inquiry

about how seriously, how very, very seriously those committees take the crime of witness intimidation, here's his long-standing political advisor being convicted in a criminal court of witness intimidation. so that all being spat out of the volcano by the news gods at the same time was a very dramatic thing. but immediately after that happened in the hearing, while the hearing was still buzzing with what had just happened there in front of their eyes, we then got a brand new piece of information about the president's behavior here and the president's motivation here that had never been voiced before. this is the thing that made me get off the couch and stand up and call everybody i know. that's next. we've got a lot to come tonight. stay with us. t a lot to come to. stay with us make fitness routine with pure protein.

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so this was new today. new today and fascinating to me. last night on the show, you might remember, we talked about how this pressure campaign against ukraine for which president trump is being impeached. this campaign was designed to get the government of ukraine to announce some kind of investigation into democratic front-runner joe biden. and because you can't put too fine a point on it with these guys even if you try, the specific demand was that ukraine needed to announce this biden investigation publicly. they didn't need to just start an investigation, they needed to announce they were doing so. so, of course, it would have maximum, you know, damaging or embarrassing political effect. but actually, put that quote back up there on the screen again from bill taylor's

testimony because it wasn't just an investigation of joe biden that he -- that the president wanted announced by ukraine. right? it was also that he wanted announced investigation from ukraine of 2016 election interference. 2016 election interference by ukraine. he wanted an investigation announced into that, too. 2016 election interference by ukraine is not a thing. it did not happen. it was russia that interfered in the 2016 election to benefit donald trump. it wasn't ukraine. so last night, on the show, we tried to find in the wild, some trace, some explanation for where that weird sort of backwards theory might have come from. i mean, the whole u.s. intelligence community says it was russia. the bipartisan senate committee said it was russia. more than a dozen russian intelligence officers are currently indicted by the justice department because it was russia. it was russia. so where is this weird thing coming from that trump is pursuing in this pressure campaign in ukraine?

this insistence by him that it wasn't russia who interfered in 2016. it was ukraine that did it. well, as of last night, as i menged on the show last night, where that strange thing might have come from was documented in this fbi report. rick gates explaining to the fbi under penalty of perjury the argument that it wasn't russia, it was ukraine, that argument was spread in the first instance in this country by donald trump's now-imprisoned campaign chairman paul manafort. and where did manafort get that theory that he started separating in this country? well, what gates told the fbi was that he was parroting it. someone who the fbi says is affiliated with russian intelligence agencies. so this theory that trump was demanding that ukraine needed to provide him announced

investigation about, right, he wanted the biden investigation announced. but he wanted this other investigation announced, too. best as we can tell, this other thing he wanted announced ukrainian investigation into this weird claim that it wasn't russia, it was ukraine that interfered in our last election. that claim appeared to have originated with russian intelligence. russian intelligence gets fed to trump's former campaign chair. lots of dealings with pro-putin elements in the world, right? he's now in prison. but it goes russian intelligence tom to manafort. but that -- that chain of command sort of makes sense, right? russia wants to muddy the waters. russia wants to blame somebody else. russia doesn't want to be held to account for what they did. then knock me over with a feather. this happened today. >> now, are you familiar with these allegations of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election?

>> i mean, there have been rumors out there about things like that. but, you know, there was nothing hard. at least nothing that i was aware of. >> there was nothing based in fact to support these allegations. >> right. yes. >> and, in fact, who was responsible for interfering and meddling in the 2016 election? >> well, the u.s. intelligence community has concluded that it was russia. >> ambassador yovanovitch, are you aware that in february of 2017, vladimir putin himself promoted this theory of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election? >> you know, maybe i knew that once and have forgotten but i'm not familiar with it now. >> well, let me show you a press statement that president putin made in a joint press conference

with victor orban of hungary on february 22nd of 2017. as we all know during the presidential campaign in the united states, the ukrainian government adopted a unilateral position in favor of one candidate. more than that, certain oligarchs, certainly with the approv approval of the political leadership funded this candidate, or female candidate to be more precise. now, how would this theory of ukraine interference in the 2016 election be in vladimir putin's interest? >> well, i mean, president putin must have been aware that there were concerned in the u.s. about russian meddling in the 2016 elections. and what the potential was for russian meddling in the future. so, you know, classic for an

intelligence officer to try to throw off the scent and, you know, create an alternative narrative that maybe might get picked up and get some credence. >> an alternative narrative that would absolve his own wrongdoing? >> yeah. >> yeah. turns out this thing that trump has been spinning, this weird thing about ukraine interfering in the election. i want you to announce an investigation into that. he's spinning that exactly the way that vladimir putin has been spinning it. and the way that russian intelligence was feeding it to his now-imprisoned campaign chairman who was talking to rudy giuliani about strategy in this campaign. i mean, and that was just like a thing that came up in a quiet moment today. man, what's next? moment today man, what's next it nourishes and strengthens my joints for the long term. osteo bi-flex - now in triple strength plus magnesium. (honk!) i hear you sister.

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working at 30 rock today. let me just ask you your impressions of the second hearing today with ambassador yovanovitch. >> it's sort of hard to summarize in ten seconds. first and foremast, the ambassador, what a startling profile in courage. it was amazing. this leads to the second thing that was amazing is that the just as the republicans are falling over themselves not to attack her, to thank her for her service, boom, out comes the presidential tweet where he says yar yeah everywhere she went, she screwed up. but really, the story told today is this isn't just a bad phone call. this is a three, four month evident with a very clear goal to get an investigation in the bidens going that started with her -- before her firing, right? because these second-rate gangsters in ukraine and rudy giuliani were spreading these rumors in ukraine before she was told to come home. >> in terms of what we learned and new perspectives that we got

today that we, the public, couldn't get without hearing from these witnesses, i was really struck today when she said like basically i understand why they wanted me out of there now. like, i understand at the time but i can now see now that i can see the larger scheme that was at work. what i don't understand is why they didn't just remove me for in no reason. why they had to try to destroy me and use me and levy all these false accusations to me. her to this day bewilderment and sadness over that is something i found very affecting. but i don't know if you know the answer. if the committee has a theory as to why she had to be humiliated and destroyed instead of just taken out of the way. >> i don't think it's any more complicated than the inside of donald trump ace brai's brain. i mean, chairman schiff brought it out. that line about in the transcript where the president says lutsenko, who is a very dirty guy, right, this is a guy

who by the way admitted it was a lie that there was a do not prosecute list. a very dirty guy. he's talking him up in the transcript saying, great, great, guy then ambassador yovanovitch, says she's a bad woman. things are going to happen to her. it's a complete inversion of any recognizable moral code and that's the inside of donald trump's head. >> in terms of what happens next here, the inquiry appear to still be expanding. tomorrow, there's going to be another deposition in office of management and budget career staffer who we can -- we think we know from open source reporting was sort of taken out of the loop around military aid on ukraine once omb staffers decided it might be illegal to do that hold. i mean, it seems like however fast you guyings are wanting to go on the intelligence committee, you're getting more wanss. >> yeah, that's right. i mean, today was important with this but innocence and the new deposition because, look, the facts here aren't in dispute.

the long campaign to get an investigation of the bidens done that involved withholding military aid, that involved dangling. the republicans aren't denying it. they're just saying it's okay. right? but the piece that was missing that began to fall into place today was to -- to sort of riff on the watergate thing, you know, what did the president say? and when did he say it? we haven't actually known who the president talked to other than zelensky, right? so today, we learn about this phone call where donald trump is inquiring about his investigation and sondland is saying, going great, it's going to happen and by the way, they'll do anything you want. and remember, ambassador sondland is coming before the committee next week. so that direction connection to the president. that's what's developing now. >> can you tell us about any time horizon in terms of how long public hearings will go on for? >> well, our hope was we might begin to wind them up towards the end of next week or around there. because if you think about it, i'm pretty sure the speaker is committed to getting this process done hopefully by the

end of the year-ish. if you sort of work through all the testimony and what judiciary needs to do, you're already struggling to make that time table. but again, you just don't know what's going to happen. the other big piece here of course is rudy giuliani. you know, rudy giuliani is the other half of this thing. he's running around ukraine smearing an ambassador. god only knows what sort of business deals he was pursuing and because he won't appear in contempt of congress and we'll deal with that down the road, it's going to take some time to know that other half of the story here. >> congressman jim hooims, house intelligence committee. it's great to have you here. we'll be right back. stay with us have you here. we'll be right back. stay with us .

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joining us now is somebody who i am honored to have here on set, somebody who i should mention has deep knowledge of presidents and impeachment. tom brokaw covered richard nixon's final year in the white house. he later anchored nbc nightly news during the impeachment of president clinton. tom is now a senior correspondent for nbc news and also author of a new book called "the fall of richard nixon a reporter remembers watergate." talk about good timing, sir, it's great to have you here. >> i would like to say i was so prescient that i saw this coming. it was not due to come out later in november but we thought maybe we ought to get it outright here that had applications to now but there's been a lot of change as well. >> do you feel we over extrapolate from the watergate example to understand impeachment? >> there's separate and unequal

in so many ways. richard nixon was in office for a full year. we have the tapes, looking at it, and yet they couldn't quite get the apparatus going. but they were very meticulous about it. when they finally got around to the supreme court saying you've got to give up the tapes, by then a bilateral position was on the hill and ready to initiate impeachment. but he, in fact, resigned before that happened. the other thing that's different then, we were on the air two or three times a day. we weren't on the air 24/7. it wasn't that kind of constant thing going on. watching today for what it's worth i thought the most dramatic moment was that cheap shot the president made about her and her experience in somalia. i've been in somalia. it's one of the most dangerous places in the world. it was the home of black hawk down. for him to though that off, here's a guy who goes home to mar-a-lago at night, and she's out there in really tough places. but at the same time you have to remember that impeachment is a procedure that the rest of the

country also has a voice in. and i think that this situation now, it's hard for a lot of people to kind of parse it, you know, what was going on there, isn't that how they always do business? so my own judgment is i think there has to be one more hand in a cookie jar coming out with something or visible to everyone else, and they know he's done something just dramatically wrong but something against the best interest of this country. >> and in terms of the way it's playing out, obviously it's early in the process, although we don't know how early. we heard the congressman saying the aim to is to finish it by the end of the year. we're already pretty deep in november. so we don't know how long this process is going to go on for. but we at least on this point have the republicans not really defending the republicans on substance of what he did but instead complaining about adam schiff, complaining about the means by which the inquiry is being conducted. are their parallels there in terms of watergate, or is this a new approach?

>> i think every time you have impeachment it's a new approach because situations are different. look at the bill clinton case, for example, president nixon was going to be found guilty. there's no question about it, but he lasted a full year, which is a reminder that i keep making to people, that he was able to hang in there because a country doesn't give up their president easily. and this guy for whatever we think about him still has a loyal core out there that will show up for these rallies. and the big, big change is what we're doing right here. >> in terms of the frequency -- >> 24/7 everybody's got something to say and everybody, however inconsequential they may be, has a place on that big, big billboard and people have to listen to it. but i always believe in the ufo theory, the unforeseeable will occur. and i don't know quite what that's going to be, but we're in for a long tumultuous time about what they have in mind for our

future and for our system of governing. and i think everybody has to think about that first. >> tom brokaw is the author. most recently of "the fall of richard nixon, a reporter remembers watergate." reporter remembers watergate. steps... or 57, make nature's bounty hair skin and nails step one. it's the number one brand uniquely formulated for silky hair, glowing skin and healthy nails. nature's bounty, because you're better off healthy.

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[ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ how was your day? that's going to do it for us tonight. we will see you again on monday when i'm sure i'll be just as overwhelmed. but now it's time for the "last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. and don't worry about monday. roger stone cannot be found guilty again. and did you ever imagine that on the day roger stone's verdict would come in and it would come in guilty on all counts, that it would be in my hour, anyway, literally the last story i'm going to be able to get to? >> exactly. you have to like squeeze it in among everything else that not only happened over the course of today but happened over the course of tonight. this is crazy.