good evening and welcome to "politicsnation." tonight's lede, everyone was in the loop. that seems to be the conclusion after two weeks of dramatic testimony in the house impeachment inquiry. where the nation heard from 12 witnesses in public hearings. we can say that this group has given democrats more than enough ammunition to win the argument on content and substance and

impeachment the president in the house. but did they sway the minds of the american public? well, that's a different issue. but today many other questions remain. do democrats have enough evidence to win the political argument and remove the president through a trial in the senate? is that kind of evidence even possible given the gop's behind loyalty to the president? is there now a mountain of new leads for democrats to follow if they so choose? will republicans and the president's allies continue to back conspiracy theories that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election? and will we ever hear testimony from key officials in this saga, namely, rudy giuliani, mick mulvaney, secretary mike pompeo, or john bolton? and maybe even vice president mike pence?

so with this impeachment plane currently at 30,000 feet, democrats now need to figure out where they're going to land this thing. joining me now, two very sharp political columnists, brett stevenson of "the new york times" and dana milbank of "the washington post." brett, let me go to you first. working out yesterday morning i read the ukrainization of trump, of america by you. i couldn't wait to have you on the show tonight. what do you mean by that? >> i think that what's really problematic with the way the president is behaving isn't what he did to or with ukraine, it's that he's turning american politics, he's turning the united states into ukraine. what i mean by that, i've been following krauukrainian politicr 20 years. criminalizing your opponents, that happens in ukraine, trying

to send your opponent to jail, using government offices to immunize yourself from prosecution and to enrich your family, that's another aspect of ukrainian politics. when i look at, really, the larger story of the trump presidency, that seems to me what this is really about. one final aspect of ukrainian politics as they exist in this permanent netherworld of conspiracy theories of not knowing who to believe, power people off stage who are really pulling the strings. and i think if you take away one lesson from the last week of testimony from colonel vindman, fiona hill, and so on, that should be the lesson. america can't be allowed to descend to the ukrainian level just as ukrainianpeople themselves are trying to rise up to what was our former level.

that's why he should be impeached and removed from office. >> listen to what all 12 witnesses established, that by demanding ukraine investigate the bidens, the president was seeking to advance his personal political agenda. listen. >> it is improper for the president of the united states to demand a foreign government investigate a u.s. citizens and political opponent. >> the references to specific individuals and investigations such as former vice president biden and his son struck me as political in nature given that the former vice president is a political opponent of the president. >> of course the president is pressing for a biden investigation. >> what we were trying to do was block us from straying into domestic or personal politics. >> dana, these were credible government officials testifying to what we just saw. how important is it?

how devastating is it for the president? >> well, it depends on who we're talking about, reverend. if you're talking about somebody looking at this with an open mind who hears the sort of things you just played, and there was much more of that over the last two weeks, you see something clearly went wrong and something very improper occurred here. there hasn't been movement in the president's base. he's gleeful about this. you have moderate republicans saying i'm not comfortable with what occurred, but not impeachable. it's sort of a run-up to what we'll hear in the senate. it does not appear to have moved the needle at all there. and that's quite a dangerous thing because they're essentially at this point going to be saying, okay, i am blessing a president in the future not handing over any documents to a congressional investigation even to an

impeachment investigation. i'm blessing the future of the united states governments being steered by russian propaganda. lawmakers on capitol hill continuing to further the russian propaganda even when warned not to. so it's rather a dangerous situation and it's been laid out for everyone to see. you have the core of the republican party saying who cares. >> brett, that brings me back to you. you have the core of the republican party according to dana saying who cares. you were against impeachment and removal and you have changed your position on that. what changed you? what brought you to that move that dana says many republicans -- you're right of center, i don't know if you're a registered republican but you're right of center. what did it for you? >> well, i think when i really started to tip was mick mulvaney's press conference. there's something -- at some

point you have to say to yourself, you know, i'm so sick of being lied to so brazenly and stupidly, as i felt i was being lied to and the american people were being lied to by mulvaney. look, my original thinking was largely political, which is i didn't quite see the high crime and misdemeanor. i saw the disgraceful behavior. > right. >> and i was worried impeachment would help the president initially. so my initial argument was let's censure the president. censure isn't an expression by our elected officials that this kind of behavior can't be allowed to pass without the stiffest possible form of disapproval that the constitution offers. and i really think republicans, my -- i'm not a republican anymore, but fellow conservatives should really ask themselves at some point in the future there might be a

democratic president conspiring with a foreign adversary to subvert an election to slime a political opponent, a republican. and when that moment comes, they will have nothing to say because they went along with this behavior. >> dana, when you hear someone like brett say that, what is it that is not being messaged right by the democrats if that is the right position? and can that backfire on the democrats? >> well, it may or may not backfire. i think we're well past the point of commitment to that. i think the democrats believe and i believe that doing the right thing morally so it hardly matters what the politics is going to be. i don't think it's a messaging thing for the democrats. this couldn't have gone any better than delivering the case over the last two weeks. the problem is you have 35% of the country, 40% of the country in some sort of a fox news echo chamber where they're not really

seeing or hearing what's going on there. they're just hearing haint haint tell them it could not have gone better for the president, he's totally innocent. so that's the danger we're in here. i don't think sean hannity's viewers are considering what brett has been talking about. i mean, under these standards there will be no watergate in the future, no iran-contra, no benghazi, no sol lynn dra. this would be a break on whatever a president chooses to do in the future. >> isn't that the real point, brett, that if this president, if you have all these witnesses, and now you have others coming forward saying what rudy giuliani did and others that may come forward in the trial if there is, in fact, a trial. aren't we really getting away from the ability to hold a

president accountable and really in many ways destroying the idea of three forms of coequals in government? i mean, this is deeper than donald trump. we're talking about how we govern. >> i think that's exactly it. we're getting at the very question of representative democracy, liberal democracy and the rule of law. i've said from the beginning that when we think about donald trump's presidency, it's really not always going to be about catastrophes. it's going to be about corrosion and the slow but steady corrosion of our constitutional norms, our moral norms, our expectations of what leaders -- how leaders should behave. as you know with any material that's corroding, it appears to be solid until it breaks and that's the moment we're looking at. >> dana, what we would be establishing is saying that then it is all right for a person, the president or others, to use a foreign government to influence united states elections. that's a frightening thought to

people that believe in the constitution of the united states. >> right. not the constitution, the plain meaning of election law. you know, it's not clear to me that a future president would necessarily say, okay, because president trump did this, i'm going to do this. it says more -- all bets are off that any president can do whatever he wants. donald trump seems to be correct when he says i could shoot somebody on 5th avenue and he wouldn't lose support for it. i think he feels like he dodged a bullet with the mueller investigation. he'll feel like he dodged a bullet here. he's not had to turn over his tax returns or anything else. i think each one of these things emboldened him somewhere. if he survives impeachment and is re-elected, there's no telling what actually might occur next and there doesn't seem to be a breaking point for the republicans. >> quick answers.

your prediction, will he be impeached or convicted? >> he will be impeached and not convicted. if the democratic party doesn't get his act together, he's going to be re-elected. >> mr. milbank? >> i concur with brett on all three of those things, unfortunately. up next, the first congressman to call for impeachment, texas democrat al green. we'll ask him what he thinks are the focal points of the investigation going forward. but first, richard richard wi -- lui. >> vice president mike pence made an unannounced visit to iraq today along with second lady karen pence. the mission, visit u.s. troops early over a thanksgiving meal. a face-to-face meeting with the president of the kurdistan

region. troops were pulled from northern syria last month opening the door for turkey to move in and attack kurdish leaders%. richard spencer is strongly considered resigning. the reason here, president trump's intervention in the case of a navy s.e.a.l. convicted of posing with a dead body of an isis fighter. four officials familiar with spencer's thinking here say he will resign if the president signs a written order to end the probe into chief petty officer eddie gallagher. the president had restored gallagher's rank tweeted the navy handled his case very badly from the beginning. he believes gallagher's review process should go forward. more "politicsnation" with reverend al sharpton right after this. maria ramirez! mom! maria!

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. welcome back. with the intel committee wrapping up the last of a scheduled televised impeachment hearings on thursday and congress on recess for thanksgiving, we can likely expect the committee's report with its findings in the next few weeks. followed shortly by the educational committ judiciary committee drafting articles of impeachment. once the full votes are kpreetd, the trial in the senate could start in january. joining me is al green of texas, a member of the financial services committee.

congressman, you were the first member of congress to step up and call for impeachment. i remember well. we talked about it on this show. people thought you were way out front there, way ahead of yourself over your skis, as they say. now we've seen two weeks of televised testimony. how do you feel about what we have now seen and what the american public has seen, because as you know, watching witnesses on television, hearing it in live time is a lot different than what was put out just by the chamber over news shots and cable news appearances. >> thank you for having me, reverend. i'm here because i love my country and i have done what i have done to bring these things to the attention of the country because i love it. i believe that many people who've been calling for impeachment have been imminently correct. we have had a rationale for

calling for impeachment. we talked about the obstruction when the president fired mr. comey who was investigating at the time for russian intrusion into our election. but there are things that we still have to do, reverend. i believe that this president epitomizes what hamilton wrote about when he talked about the reason a president could be impeached, for harm he's causing society in federal 65, harm he's causing society. he's a person whole holds public trust. if you're causing harm to society, we have then the reason and the ability pursuant to the constitution to remove the president from office. impeachment first in the house, then trial in the senate. what is the president doing at a-to-harm society? he still corrupted the men who are around him. he's corrupted his chief of staff, went on television and

said this is how we do business, just get used to it. he's corrupted his secretary of state. he is dealing in some sort of fatuous folly, trying to find dirt on someone who is a political opponent. he has corrupted the vice president. the vice president seems to have knowledge of these things. he's supposed to be a man of honor but he won't step forward. so he's corrupting society. his bigotry and policy. andrew johnson was impeached for articles related to bigotry and policy. andrew johnson didn't want to see the freed slaves have the same rights as others in this country. and we have to make sure that we don't allow this level of bigotry and policy to persist without checking it. if we don't do this -- >> it goes to the senate and the republicans have a stronghold there in terms of having the

majority. the only thing that many feel that can get some of the republicans to break rank and vote conviction despite the evidence, the preponderance of the evidence i might add that we heard in the last two weeks is the politics of the matter, their own senate seats being threatened, those that are facing re-election. yet we're seeing -- polls are saying, yes, we think the president was wrong, but now they're starting to go down a little in terms of impeach and remove from office. how do the democrats get the public support necessary that would put pressure on republicans that you would want to vote conviction? >> reverend, i don't think these times are similar to those when we had mr. nixon available to be impeached. we have recallous trance unlike we have seen before. we're not going to get 60% of

the public. if we want that, then i think we are unfortunately looking for something that won't manifest itself. i think that fox news is antithetical to any sort of impeachment. i think that we have to do this based on principle, not politics. if we do it based upon principle, we do the right thing. once we do the right thing, my hope is that the public will come around and we'll get a significant amount of people in addition to what we have now. but reverend, this is about putting your country above the politics of both of these parties. >> have you heard any of your republican colleagues in the house say to you off the record quietly that they have in any way, shape, or form that they have been moved by any of the witnesses? >> i have not. i have not heard them say anything about moving in any direction one way or another, and i do that talk to them. but i can tell you this,

reverend. if we don't do this, there will be no guardrails. we have a democracy now if you want to protect the democracy from autocracy, we have to do this. we don't have a choice. we have to protect the democracy and impeachment is the thing that we must do. my hope is, reverend, if i may say, my hope is this, that when we bring these articles of impeachment, we will also include articles about his bigotry. i would dearly like to present articles of his bigotry because this is the root cause of the problems that black people have in this country. >> that was involved in andrew johnson's impeachment. >> absolutely, reverend. radical republicans impeached him for this. slavery, reverend, is the epitome of irreparable harm. black people are manifesting conditions today based upon the

irreparable harm that emanates from slavery and discrimination. if we talk about joblessness among black people, it's because of discrimination. when black people are at the kitchen table, they're talking about discrimination, how they couldn't get a job because of the discrimination, how you couldn't get promoted. all of this is rooted in discrimination. my hope, reverend, is we can also impeach him for his discrimination. >> texas congressman al green, thank you very much. coming up, just when you thought the pool of 2020 candidates for the democratic nomination was getting smaller, another democratic heavyweight decides to jump in. we'll talk with former massachusetts governor deval patrick. you're watching "politicsnation." with fidelity wealth management you get straightforward advice,

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this week's memo to the president is dedicated to old friends. one of your old pals in particular, mr. president, new england patriots owner robert

kraft who in leaked audit yesterday from tmz called you divisive and horrible during a 2017 nfl meeting and that's got to hurt because even though you're a man who infamously believes loyalty is a one-way street, it looks like you made a sincere effort to be a friend of mr. kraft, calling help me weekly in the year following his wife's death to give support in his time of need and celebrating with him after his very successful football team won yet another super bowl. perhaps you would like to keep mr. kraft close because he's something you know you'll never be, a genuine winner, because for all your racist blunder over nfl players protesting, your so-called friend underground never had your back. in that recording, kraft said those very players you called sobs for capital gataking a kne

quote, a right to do if they feel it's right, unquote. and he called you a, quote, problem we have for using nfl players in your mission to divide the country. and yet, he was still accepting your visions to high-profile events like a state dinner at the white house. i guess honesty is not the best policy in this relationship. i know you don't have much experience with true friendship, mr. president, so i'll let you in on a little secret. being on the same page about fundamental issues like injustice is usually a requirement. just because mr. kraft is a fellow rich guy and a survivor of a couple scandals of his own, that doesn't mean yours is a lasting bond. so it might be time to throw a flag on this so-called friendship, mr. president, and move on. maybe mr. kraft won't want the

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despite a very crowded field of democrats running for president, last week deval patrick announced that he too will make a bid for the white house. since declaring and filing to be eligible for multiple primaries,

the former massachusetts governor has made trips to iowa, south carolina, and nevada, all early-voting states to pitch to their voters. right now he has his work cut out for him, several recent national polls show him at 0% support among voters. some 30 points behind front-runner joe biden. about a year ago patrick flirted with the idea of a presidential run. he ultimately decided against it. but, oh, the difference 12 months makes. is the start date of patrick's run too late for him to make a splash in this race? i'll ask him. joining me now is deval patrick. mr. governor, welcome to "politicsnation." >> thank you, reverend al. thanks for having me. i have to tell you, after the commentary, it feels like you just dropped the mic. there's nothing else to say. >> you don't have to campaign to me, but i get your point. let me ask you, over the last year, many people i know tried

to urge you to run and you would not say you were running. you, in fact, said no a few times. a few times you said you were thinking about it. what changed your mind at this what would seem to be a late date to decide to throw your hat in the ring? >> you know, two things i want to say. first of all, it was about a year ago, reverend al, i think you know when we were a couple weeks from announcing a campaign. my wife was diagnosed with uterine cancer. i think the right thing for me and for her and for our family was for us to step back and focus on her and on that. i'm proud to say when we celebrated our 35th wedding anniversary in may, she's cancer free. >> wow. >> and she's gotten stronger and stronger. yes, praise god. she's in great shape. those inbound encouragements continued and i'll say the ones that have been the most moving for me in some ways that have

had the biggest effect are the ones that came from total strangers out of the blue. i've been watching the race very, very respectful of the other candidates, many of whom are my friends. but i think that for the reasons you said in your commentary, the question right now, as serious as the breaches and infractions of the incumbent are, if the character of the candidates is always an issue, this time it's the character of the country. and i think for us to reach the higher ground that we've been working towards, striving forward, slipping back from in such a profound way this time, we have to have collaborative leadership who can set big, ambitious goals and bring others along to them. that's what i've tried to do through my whole public and private life. >> now, do you feel that part of the reason that you are entering

this race is that the present candidates, none of them can bring us to higher ground? i mean, do you see -- i know some of your friends, as you just stated, but do you see the cast of candidates that we are now looking at lacking in their ability to do what you think you can do? >> well, i think -- i appreciate the question. i don't want to leave anyone, least of all you, with the impression that trying to lift myself by tearing anybody else down. that's not who i am and that's not the kind of campaign i want to run. i do think that, you know, you think about expanding health care, for example. we expanded health care to 98% plus of our population in massachusetts and we did that by building bridges, not saying my way or the highway. but saying here is our goal and how can we collaborate to get there. we began the collapse of mandatory minimum sentencing not

by saying i get to do this with a stroke of a pen because that's not how democracy works, but by bringing other people along and figuring out as we did how to make sure we were enabling people who were coming out to be ready to rejoin a productive life. you can go right through issues of schooling, how on the private sector i've worked to shape better business practices in public and private companies. you don't just get, frankly, as an impatient person. you don't just get to go in and say it has to be this way or else. you have to persuade and cajole and make it everybody's success so that in the case of our policies we don't just rack up democratic, you know, not just in our victory belt, but we rack up successes for america that will last. >> i hear you saying that a lot of people can say things, but you've done them as governor of

massachusetts. you dealt with, as you said, the issues of education and you dealt with things that you've outlined, including a terrorist attack. is that going to be what distinguishes you from the other candidates? >> well, a lot of it is practical alternative, but it's a willingness to take calculated risks. we can't have cautious leadership today. this isn't about just a record of policy accomplishments or business accomplishments. it's about a record of taking those calculated richsks and bringing others along. for example, when i left after two terms as massachusetts governor, i launched an impact investing fund where we're investing in companies for both financial return and measurable social or environmental impact because we're trying to demonstrate you don't have to trade one for the other, that there's a way to think about long-term value which is for the

larger community. >> that's what you did because you know that some in the so-called left are going to raise that you had done work at bane capital. how do you answer that? >> that was exactly that work. we invest in companies that are mission-driven, that are trying to scale and trying to demonstrate that that is sustainable and successful business model. and i think it's contributed to the movement of things like the statement out of the business round table, acknowledging that capitalism has to be about the value to shareholders, but to people, employees, folks in the community, the planet itself. we have to move the private sector to a better place, a more constructive and engaged place, reverend al, because, frankly, the issues that face us as human beings and human kind are too big for any one sector alone.

we have to have a government that sees and hears people and is responsive to everyone everywhere, not just the mighty, but the meek as well. we need business to have consistently responsible engagement in rebuilding opportunity here in the united states and around the world. and we need the felphilanthropi sector to be involved as well. >> you hear some of the candidates talk about the obama coalition. you were with barack obama from the beginning. i mean -- >> that's right. >> i think a couple of people talking about the obama coalition ran against obama in the primaries. you were there in the beginning. >> they joined. they got there in time. >> you could argue you helped build that coalition. you ran for governor, won, and was elected in a state that has a small black population. are you going to say you're

electability is that you have been able to build that kind of coalition, that you can in many ways contrast that with the other candidates that are now running and will be competing with you for the nomination? >> look, i haven't been campaigning for months and years and raising money. and i don't come to this as a celebrity or as ascension. i come to this as someone who's made a whole life from growing up on the south side of chicago to practicing civil rights law to working as a business executive to running for governor. the only office, as you know, i've ever run for before by being willing to listen to other people. without losing my temper or self-confidence. and i think being able to set ambitious goals and then bring other people in so that it's a shared success is why and how

you get results that last. so yes, i'm going to go make a stake with every voter. i'm going to try my very best to be respectful of every voter because i know black voters, white voters, and everybody else don't actually fit in a box, you know. we are a complicated people. we have multiple dimensions, and i want to be appreciated that way and i try to appreciate other people that way. >> all right. >> i'm looking forward to it. >> i'll have to leave it there. i'm sure we'll continue talking. thank you, former massachusetts governor and 2020 candidate for president, deval patrick. now on to another 2020 candidate, elizabeth warren remains one of the top three democrats in this white house race. this week she bolstered her organization, announcing three people leading at cochairs, all are democratic congresswoman,

ayanna pressley of massachusetts, and my next guest, deb holland of new mexico who is also one of the first native american women elected to congress. representative, thank you for being with us tonight. >> thank you. i'm honored to be here, reverend al. >> now, i'm going to jump right in. you called president trump a racist. why? >> i mean, he's got a white nationalist who is managing his immigration policy. i mean, i could go on and on with a long list of reasons why, not to mention the fact that he uses the word, the name pocahontas as a racial slur. >> you are a native american. how do you deal with him using that, and do you think if your candidate, elizabeth warren, is nominated, that he's going to try to bring this back to attack her and how will the campaign

deal with it if she's successful in being the nominee? >> well, i'm sure he'll try every trick in the book, right? we've seen him, how he runs his campaigns. they're negative. he name calls, he does whatever he can to disparage other people. senator warren is a champion for working families. she is going to be on the campaign trail making face-to-face contact with voters. she's going to make sure voters know exactly what she plans on doing for them, which is fighting for working families, to make sure that the government works for people like me. i'm a single mom. i know what it's like to be on food stamps. we need a champion in the white house who cares about the disparity we're experiencing right now in our country. there's too many rich folks, not enough people caring about the

folks who are not earning enough or don't have the benefits they need to put food on the family and a roof over their heads. >> senator warren came out this week saying she had a plan to deal with white supremacy. is she actively trying to make it plain she's not only going to be with long and complicated plans but is going to deal with racism and white supremacy and the disproportionate way deal with it. is this something that she's doing that will, in your opinion, appeal to a lot of voters that are sitting on the fence? >> well, i think it should. you know, this president has been in office -- since he's been in office he's separated

children at the border. we have seen the worst of what a president can be. and so i think that we need somebody who has compassion and cares about diversity in our country and wants to value that. i think that senator warren will be extremely cognizant and compassionate when it comes to those issues, and i think she'll be a breath of fresh air, quite frankly. >> let me go back to the president attacking senator warren about saying she was a native american. she's gone and dealt with a lot of native american leaders around this issue. do you think naimtive americans have accepted her explanation and don't feel she should not be

in some ways understood or even forgiven for whatever that mishap was? >> reverend al, i'm a 35th generation new mexican. my ancestors migrated to this area of new mexico in the late 1200s. i know of a champion for an indian country what i see one. currently senator warren and i, we are sponsoring a bill together, her on the senate side, me on the house side. it's called honoring promises to native nations act to ensure that the federal government lives up to its trust responsibility to indian tribes. she completely understands what that trust obligation is by the federal government to tribes, and she is going to champion that. we have suffered decades and decades of underfunding. for folks who don't necessarily understand what that trust and responsibility is, think about

this for one second. when the europeans came to this country back in the late 1400s, this was all indian country. through treaties and executive orders and acts of congress, almost this entire united states is the united states when it used to be indian land n. exchange for all of that land, native americans -- the federal government made promises to indian tribes for education, for housing, for health care, for public safety. elizabeth warren understands that and i am very excited to work with her on ensuring that we finally have, you know, have this trust obligation taken seriously. >> all right. thank you to elizabeth warren's 2020 campaign co-chair, congresswoman deb holland. more "politics nation" after this. some things are harder than you thought. and others are easier. like screening for colon cancer with me, cologuard.

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with nearly three months to go until the south carolina primary, senator kamala harris is pounding the pavement there this weekend. the state has a large black population and could be crucial to her success as a candidate. but tomorrow, senator harris will take a break from the campaign trail to join me live for an interview. you won't want to miss it. that's at 5:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, my final thoughts. stay with us. maria ramirez?

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wthat's why xfinity hasu made taking your internetself. and tv with you a breeze. really? yup. you can transfer your service online in about a minute. you can do that? yeah. and with two-hour service appointment windows, it's all on your schedule. awesome. so while moving may still come with its share of headaches... no kidding. we're doing all we can to make moving simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. on the morning after wednesday's debate in atlanta, georgia, national action network, the civil rights organization i'm president of, had a breakfast. ministers breakfast in atlanta. and we had half of the candidates come by and address us on what they specifically are going to deal with in terms of

racial disparities and injustices in the country. it is important that we press candidates all the way through. all the way until there's a nominee. all the way until there's a general election. it is not enough to just be anti-trump. you must be pro-the american people, including those that have been marginalized and left out. there is the absolute repeated statement made by everyone that they cannot win the democrats without the black vote. but the black vote should not be given without really dealing with black issues and women's issues and lgbtq issues and other issues. there should not be drive-by campaigning but it must be policy, commitment, and giving us your background as to why we should believe you will do what you say and say what you will do. that does it for me.

thanks for watching. i'll see you back here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern for a new live edition of "politics nation." up next, my colleague richard lui picks up the coverage with more of today's news. good saturday to you. i'm richard lui live here at msnbc world headquarters. new information overnight raises new questions about secretary of state mike pompeo and rudy giuliani and the contacts they may have had. this as a giuliani associate may be ready to drag a republican member of congress front and center into the scandal. that's new. and the case against donald trump from the witnesses in their own words. this hour, we're going to show you how they laid it all out this week. plus, what some say is distract, deflect, and defend the president at any cost. the three d