good evening, everyone. welcome to "case kasie dc." both the congress and country, as you can imagine, deeply split. plus, republican senators demand documents into joe biden and the obama administration. i am joined by democratic senator chris coons about what awaits the impeachment case when it arrives across the capitol. at 8 p.m. i'm going to talk one on one with presidential

candidate cory booker after a phrase winning debate performance, can he find the traction that has been missing so far. and complete coverage of past new york city mayors, rudy giuliani runs his mouth about an indicted associate while michael bloomberg runs for president. as we come on the air tonight though, some major breaking news. as we often do on sunday nights. the pentagon saying that the secretary of defense has fired the secretary of the navy. the department of defense says that trust was lost in richard spencer, quote, regarding his lack of candor over conversations with the white house involving the handling of navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher. over the last 48 hours the headlines have flown back and forth against the white house and the naval secretary over whether gallagher could retain his status as a navy s.e.a.l. that has knotted up the chain of command badly. defense secretary mark esper said he was deeply troubled by spencer's conduct. moments ago spencer released his

resignation letter saying in part unfortunately it has become apparent that i no longer share the same understanding with the commander of chief. i cannot in good conscience obey an order that i believe violates the sacred oath i took. earlier this month president trump restored chief pettit officer gallagher's rank. he was accused of murdering a wounded isis militant in iraq in 20178. he was acquitted by a military court on that charge, but he was found guilty of posing with the dead prisoner's body. a lot more to come on all of this in just a minute. the big headline this evening, the secretary of the navy has been fired. all right. first, in two weeks of public impeachment hearings, millions of americans watched as a chorus of witnesses put together a consistent narrative about the president's pressure campaign on

ukraine. >> was there a quid pro quo? with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is yes. mr. giuliani demanded that ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations. mr. giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the united states. >> so you heard president trump ask ambassador sondland, is he going to do the investigation? >> yes, sir. >> what was ambassador sondland's response? >> he said, oh, yeah, he's going to do it. he'll do anything you ask. >> i did say to him, ambassador sondland, gordon, i think this is all going to blow up, and here we are. >> in fact, here we are. the question is what comes next? here's adam schiff this morning on "meet the press." >> we have another election in which the president is threatening more foreign interference, but at the same time there are still other witnesses, other documents that

we would like to obtain but we're not willing to go the months and months and months of rope a dope in the courts, which the administration would more than love for us to do. >> and reporting now just tonight from the washington post seems to underscore how much is left unanswered. the post reports that a confidential white house review of the president's decision to place a hold on military aid to ukraine turned up hundreds of documents that reveal extensive efforts to generate an after the fact justification for that decision and the debate whether or not the delay was, in fact, legal. joining me now by phone washington post national investigative reporter and msnbc contributor carol lenox who just broke that story. let's walk through these emails that you have obtained show was in fact going on at the white house at the time of this hold on the aid. >> sure. here's what we know from the sources who have been talking to

us about these records. the white house counsel's office began a review, any law office would, for their client, the president and the white house, to figure out what happened with the president's handling of ukraine and what records are available that are going to help us understand what happens and also what bad records are out there that may make this look worse than we already know. in that records review they found that after the president had ordered that the chief of staff and the budget office blocked the aid to ukraine, roughly $400 million in security assistance, that helps this ally fight off russian aggression. after the president's decision to block it these emails show the chief of staff talking to budget office officials, senior ones, about what they're going to say to justify the hold after the fact. and whether or not it's legal.

and there are some people in different agencies, especially at the state department and the defense department, who are raising questions about the propriety of holding this aid back that congress has approved months earlier and why it's being held up and whether that is appropriate. >> we'll get into the moment -- we'll get into the justification for a moment, carol, but let me get your thoughts on what exactly triggered this white house review in the first place. i mean, do we know who inside the white house ordered it and whether or not the president was aware that a review was taking place over the past several weeks that it was. >> i don't know if the president was aware, but it is something that was ordered by white house counsel who is doing his job, right? he is -- >> right. >> -- doing what every lawyer would do for their client, looking at the records, trying to get an understanding of what's really happened in the rear view and also looking for liability and exposure.

what bad -- what bad exchanges are out there that he has to be prepared for. initially we understand the review was gun definitely in that defensive crouch but with a goal of trying to explain it to the public as the house was launching into an impeachment investigation. the idea was let's find out the time line, let's figure out our defense in public and in private about how all of these things were done properly. and that is when in looking through the records they find some exchanges between budget office and the chief of staff. >> let me come back to the point that you raised earlier and that you also write there is a debate over whether the delay was in fact legal. did you get any sense from your sources whether or not white house officials came to a conclusion on the legality of the matter based on some of the questions, as you say, that they were getting from state department and defense department officials? >> the conclusion was as advised by the omd lawyers that this was

legal, that as long as they called it a temporary, emphasis on temporary, hold, that it was legal under the law. honestly, there's a technical, you know, somewhat antiquated budget control act called the congressional budget and empowerment control act often referred to as the empowerment act, and this had been the subject earlier in the president's administration of dispute. the general -- the government accountability office, the gao, had written the white house a letter in december long before this whole ukraine saga. but in december of 2018 this office put the white house on notice that their interpretation of how to use, disperse, and hold congressionally approved funds was not following the letter of the law in gao's view. so that caused some anxiety within the budget office when

the ukraine hold was ordered by the president. you know, are we now running afoul again? that's at least what sources have said. i would feel a lot more comfortable if we had all of these records to review to determine how saer yously they looked at it and how carefully and rigorously they tested the legality of their decision. >> all right. carol, we will continue to follow this story. thank you very much for your reporting in and joining us this evening. with that i'd like to welcome in my panel. associate editor of commentary magazine, noah rothman and in washington d.c., wbur and msnbc contributor kimberly atkins and former u.s. attorney and former fbi director for congressional affairs greg broward. let me begin with you, if i may. given what we just heard from carol and the significance of these communications involving mick mulvaney, the omb, are democrats leaving critical facts on the table in their pursuit in

this impeachment investigation if they do not insist and go to the courts to get somebody like mick mulvaney to testify under subpoena? >> well, that's the big question in washington right now, right, eamon? the answer in my view is maybe. i think the witness testimony that we all heard over the last couple of weeks before the house intel committee painted a very, very clear picture about what happened. the facts do not seem to be in dispute but, of course, to the extent that some might say there are missing links, mick mulvaney can fill in or contribute one of those missing links. many of the witnesses, as we heard, pointed to mulvaney as having been involved throughout this process in pursuing this effort and so his testimony could be valuable. and so to the extent that more evidence is better, sure, mulvaney could be valuable, but even without him the picture seems very clear. >> so, noah, if you had to -- if

you were in the seat of adam schiff and you had to kind of look at the potential of people that are out there that they should really try and fight and get, you've got john bolton teasing a book, mick mulvaney popping up in emails, potentially a few others here and there, who do you go after? how much do you want to fight in the courts and go after? >> i can't understand why we haven't seen a more concerted effort to get john bolton to testify. his attorneys seem to be communicating in a way that they're almost asking to be subpoenaed in order to get around executive privilege. john bolton believes in executive privilege. mick mulvaney believes in executive privilege. it's a genuine concern that the president's confidence would be violated. it needs to be adjudicated. the way that they've decided not to pursue john bolton is odd. we've seen so much evidence that suggests that the sequence of ee vens as we understood them is

what happened. the president wanted this aid held as part of a quid pro quo as sondland said. we do not have an order from the president in writing, verbal, otherwise suggesting why this aid was withheld. if you can't put a definitive period on the end of the sentence, you'll have a lot of people saying, listen, we don't know the whole story, and they wouldn't be wrong. >> kimberly, here's an interesting thread. we talked about john bolton. the other person is mike pompeo. he's a central figure. as we heard carol's reporting, the state department was involved in this. he had communications with rudy giuliani shortly before the ouster of marie yovanovich. parnas is willing to testify that congressman devin nunes met with the top prosecutor about investigating the activities of joe and hunter biden.

is mike pompeo somebody that the democrats should go after and get in front of this committee? >> oh, certainly. i think all -- everyone who we've spoken to are key witnesses, key primary witnesses to all of this. and democrats should want and do want them to testify. it is they who have refused to do so without a court order. so that gives the democrats both a legal and a political problem. on the one hand, yes, you want all of these people before testifying privately and publicly but at the same time if they choose to go to court, which they have done, it could take so long that the democrats are very worried that the narrative that they have painted which they think from the 12 witnesses from the last two weeks is pretty clear it risks losing that, muddying it, and it's the same political problem that you had during the mueller investigation that they don't want to repeat. they think that is the better option to move forward and treat

efforts not to comply as additional potential articles of impeachment that that takes care of it while still painting this very clear picture. the more facts that come out, that might make it more difficult for them to do because it looks like they're doing something that might be less complete and doing more investigation may seem like the more logical step to take. >> noah, i want to go back to the gordon sondland testimony for a moment. i want to play you the sound bite that you flagged that has not been getting as much attention as you think it should. watch this. >> he had to announce the investigations. he didn't actually have to do them as i understood it. >> he didn't have to do the investigation. i think that's very telling in some ways. the other aspect, too, the other side of that coin as i see it, republicans were in the house for two years. they never went after joe biden and ukraine and you take that statement and take the fact that they had controlled the house and never launched an investigation into barisma until

the presidential elections geared up. >> in part, there's also a practical question. this will broaden very quickly in the way the president may not appreciate. gordon sondland was very quick to say he saw that and he interrupted lawmakers who said the investigations. no, no, the appearance of investigations. the president wanted announcements into these investigations. he didn't necessarily want them conducted, which does tell you that the president's interest wasn't necessarily in the conduct of an investigation into corruption but in tarring a democratic political opponent which makes a lot of sense. the president's desire is to recreate the conditions of 2016 to the extent he can. >> greg, to that point, it raises the question, are both sides here talking about the same thing? i feel that the democrats are trying to make a legal case. the republicans are defending against a political case and here we are in the middle of it.

>> well, that's right. i think the republicans are largely in denial about the legal case and, of course, to the extent that we see a compelling legal case, that should make for traditionally -- would have made for a compelling political case but let me push back on the notion that additional testimony from mulvaney or others is necessary to link the president to this effort. we have to remember that we already have a summary of the july 25th call in which the president clearly puts himself right in the middle of this scheme. we then have the mulvaney press conference where he essentially just admits to it all. then we have the sondland testimony. if you take those three pieces of evidence together, they do link the president to this effort and so, again, while more evidence might be nice to have, i'm just not sure democrats think it's necessary at this point. >> yeah. i think it's a point that adam schiff echoed earlier. greg bower live in washington, d.c. we are just getting started this hour. as the president interseeds in

the war crime case of navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher, the navy secretary is out this evening. breaking news next. plus, i'm going to talk to senator chris coons about the very latest on the impeachment push. and then i'm going to talk to representative mark pocan where they are far from sold on this. kasie dc back after this. i'm not worried. it doesn't run in my family. i can do it next year. no rush. cologuard is the noninvasive option that finds 92% of colon cancers. you just get the kit in the mail, go to the bathroom, collect your sample, then ship it to the lab. there's no excuse for waiting. get screened. ask your doctor if cologuard is right for you. covered by medicare and most major insurers.

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all right. now to the breaking news that we've within following for you.

the secretary of the navy has been fired this evening. richard spencer has admitted his resignation letter in which he writes, in part, i no longer share the same understanding with the commander in chief who appointed me in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline. the resignation comes after secretary of defense mark esper requested it amid controversy over navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher. joining me is courtney kube. great to have you with us on this sunday evening. walk us through what has been a fast-moving story of changing headlines and perspectives. give us the back story about what led us to this point. >> reporter: so it all really started on thursday when president trump tweeted. he found out the navy was going to conduct a trident review board. other sailors look at a case and make a decision. eddie gallagher, a navy s.e.a.l.

accused of killing a navy fighter in iraq in 2017. he was acquitted of that charge and found guilty of posing with the dead fighter's body. they were going to conduct a i trident pin. that tells everyone who he was, a navy s.e.a.l. make him a conventional sailor again. president trump found out they were going to conduct this process tweeted saying, no, you're not going to. get back to work. richard spencer, not a household name, he according to extensive reporting that my colleague carol lee and i did on thursday and friday and into saturday morning, secretary spencer was furious about the tweet. he talked to several colleagues and said, look, a tweet is not a declaration for us to follow. if there is a -- if the president wants us to cancel the review process, we need a written order and he needs to say whether this applies just to eddie gallagher or other navy s.e.a.l.s that were involved in

the case. he also told some of his colleagues if i get that written order, i'm probably going to have to resign. we put out a story about that including other details including how some of his colleagues stepped in. there was a conversation on air force one where the chairman of the joint chiefs, the secretary of the army, the chief of staff of the army, all these pentagon leaders sat the president down and said, look, this process, if you let it play out, it's a pure review process, administrative process, let it go forward. everyone kind of thought that that's where it was going to go, that the process would go forward until this announcement late today that secretary esper had fired secretary spencer. >> to that point we have gotten that tweet from the president within the last hour or so. how is he reacting to this news? because, again, i think a lot of people may be watching this and trying to understand was richard spencer trying to do something for -- in the defense of the navy s.e.a.l.s wanting to

discipline eddie gallagher or was he trying to do something in cutting this deal with the president so that he could still retire with his trident pin if the president was not directly involved? >> so it's clear from secretary spencer's resignation letter that he says he didn't want to follow what he considered to be an unlawful order. the order, according to our reporting that we had on late saturday morning, was that he would -- the president would tell the navy that they had to cancel this trident review process. again, it's the administrative review process. he's the commander in chief. he has the authority. he can step in and tell the military to do things. legally i don't know that that was an unlawful order. that's what secretary spencer was talking about in the order. it's fascinating if you look at his resignation letter. the date is written at the top which would potentially indicate that it's not a letter that he wrote today -- i'm sorry, it's written in handwriting as opposed to the rest of the

letter that's typed out. it would seem that that means it was not written today. it's very extensively written and well written. it's much more specific than the more recent -- another recent resignation that we had at the pentagon, secretary of defense mattis a year ago where he talked in broader sense about allies and the importance of alliances. this one is very specific of why secretary spencer felt that he needed to resign here. >> i have a feeling this is not the end of the story. we will be hearing about it much more. thank you for staying on top of it. appreciate it. >> thanks. coming up, things get personal after senator lindsey graham request allstate department documents over joe biden and hunter biden and barisma. i'm going to ask senator chris coons about that next on "kasie dc." living joyfully. the united explorer card hooks me up.

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but if you just say open investigation it, in fact, makes it sound like there must be something wrong. and lindsey knows me. lindsey -- it just is -- i

wonder what john mccain is thinking right now. i think it's a reflection of how sort of ugly politics has become. >> that was former vice president joe biden lamenting the state of politics after calling for mike pompeo to release all documents related to his son hunter and ba reesema. joining me, chris coons of delaware and a biden campaign surrogate senator. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> let me begin with your reaction to senator graham's calls for an investigation into former vice president joe biden, his son hunter and barisma. what do you make of that this weekend? >> i'm really struck by this, eamon. i know the senator well. we have traveled together and legislated together. i agree with vice president biden's comments that you played at the outset. i think he will come to regret this decision. i know that he's under enormous pressure from the trump white

house. he's up for re-election. he's facing a primary, but that doesn't justify abandoning a decades old friendship and commitment to the truth. these are groundless allegations. every journalistic outlet that's looked into it has said there's nothing there, and for lindsey graham to do trump's dirty work and to create this figure leaf, this red herring of an investigation into joe biden and his son i think is going to tear apart the judiciary committee even further and will serve as a circ kusz or a side show that is a bad attempt to retract from the impeachment inquiry going forward in the house. >> let me try to humanize this. i want to play you part of a 2015 interview that touched on senator graham's personal relationship with joe biden. watch this. >> life can change just like that. don't take it for granted. don't take relationships for granted. i called him after bo died and

he basically said, well, bo was my soul. we talked for a long time. he came to my ceremony and said some of the most incredibly heartfelt things that anybody could ever say to me and he's the nicest person i think i've ever met in politics. >> is that right? >> he is as good a man as god ever created. >> do you think -- senator coons, do you think lindsey graham of 2015 would have launched an investigation like this into joe biden? what do you make of his transformation over the past few years when it comes to his relationship with president trump? there are a lot of senators out there who may be afraid of president trump. they're not necessarily going out on a limb the way lindsey graham is every day to defend him, to justify him and now to do as you said do the dirty work for the president. >> well, eamon, that showed you the heart of lindsey graham,

someone who knows joe biden well, who knows his character and who knows his kindness and that he would turn on him so sharply i think suggests how corrosive senator graham's close friendship with president trump has been to his core values. senator graham, the chairman of the judiciary committee, has been a relentless, even ferocious advocate for president trump and his nominees. he still has been able to maintain some distance from president trump's decisions when he's made bad decisions, for example, by abandoning our allies, the curds in syria. this choice to betray a decade's old friendship and a clear eyed view of the truth i think is a really disappointing demonstration of just how much senator graham's close relationship with president trump has affected the core of who he is and his judgment.

>> let me get your thoughts there on the 2020 race before we switch gears and get your reaction to the breaking news this evening coming out to the department of defense. >> sure. >> big news this weekend in the 2020 race. you have michael bloomberg running now, essentially joining the presidential race as a sign really that the democrats have yet to coalesce around joe biden. his entry would suggest otherwise. how do you see the field and bloomberg's entrance into it? >> well, i think mayor bloomberg is a very late entrant and i think he will quickly discover that actually campaigning on the stump going town to town to union halls and coffee clatches, to iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, nevada is very challenging and is going to take a great deal of time. he has very little time to do that. in poll after poll, in national and key early states and in

critical states to win the electoral college joe biden has come out top in more polls than any other candidate. i recognize the polls have changed a little bit back and forth and up and down, but consistently for seven months joe biden has had a double digit lead in south carolina, a significant lead in nevada and for most of the last seven months has enjoyed a reliable lead in iowa and new hampshire. it may be that because of some recent hiccups as a result of an advertising surge by one candidate or another that mayor bloomberg sees a window. i've been on the stump with joe biden in iowa and new hampshire and campaigned for him in several other states. i just don't see it. i don't see the ground swell of middle americans calling for another new york billionaire. i think they need and want someone who hears them, respects them and can carry forward the voice of forgotten americans, overlooked americans and those who want us to be stronger in the world and stronger and safer

here at home. i certainly admire what mayor bloomberg has done to combat gun violence and climate change -- >> right. >> -- but i think joe biden who as a senator and vice president has a real record of taking progressive ideas and getting real things done. >> let me, sir, get your final thoughts on the breaking news this evening that we started the hour with, that the secretary of the navy, richard esper is out, essentially asked for his resignation. what do you make of the upheaval at the department of defense on this issue involving navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher and how it is playing out? >> well, i haven't read any of the details of chief petty officer gallagher's disciplinary action, but from the earlier reporting on this show, it suggested that the secretary of the navy resigned rather than obeying what he believed was an illegal order. if so, that would i think show another moment of military

leaders. when jim mattis resigned over our kurdish allies, that was another sign that in the senior ranks the ways that president trump does unconventional things like interfering in military justice proceedings has brought widespread concern amongst those who try to stay out of politics but also try to keep our nation safe. >> senator chris coons, thank you very much for joining us. i appreciate it. >> thank you, eamon. at 8:00 i'm joined live by senator cory booker after a debate performance that garnered praise. plus, president trump has often blasted the washington establishment as deep state. two weeks of impeachment hearings has given names and faces to career officials. josh lederman joins me with his reporting next. me with his reporting next berty mutual.

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all right. so for months we've been desensitized by the constant drum beat of the president reducing government employees to what he calls the deep state. this week millions of americans were introduced to washington's professional class wearing bow ties and blazers and all. nbc national political reporter josh lederman joins me now. josh? >> basic types of federal workers. you have a few,0 thousand are

career officials. they sign up to basically serve the united states at large but president trump has claimed ever since he took office that these officials are responsible for a lot of his problems and that they're part of a secret kabal that's been plotting to sabotage him. trump and his allies have a term for that, the deep state. >> the deep state. >> the deep state. >> until now they were nameless, faceless, but for the first time the americans are getting to know the men and women of the federal democracy like lieutenant colonel alex vindman whose hands shook. >> dad, i'm sitting here talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision. do not worry, i will be fine for telling the truth. >> vindman was on the july phone

call when he asked for a political favor. >> i had concerns and it was my duty to report. >> a duty he said had nothing to do with politics. >> colonel vindman would you call yourself a never trumper? >> i'd call myself never partisan. >> then there was fiona hill. she had no political axe to grind. >> i don't know what a never trumper is. puzzling term. >> frankly speaking from personal experience, i didn't know if my colleagues were republicans, were democrats, were none of the above because partisan politics wasn't something that we ever discussed. >> most of the impeachment witnesses have served for decades under republican and democratic presidents, but trump and his allies have tried to discredit them one by one. >> this is like the sioux city crooners. this is a band no one's ever heard of. >> marie yovanovich ousted after

a smear campaign by rudy giuliani. trump called her bad news. >> it was a terrible moment. a person who saw me reading the transcript said that the color drained from my face. i think i even had a physical reaction. >> a parade of witnesses who say they're not out to get the president, just to tell congress what they saw and heard. >> i think all of us who came here under legal obligation also felt we had a moral obligation to do so. we came as fact witnesses. >> eamon, they tell us now that we've gotten to know the men and women, it's put a major bump in the situation. >> to that point, kimberly. let me get your thoughts on this as josh was outlining the state department, nsc officials in the case of lieutenant colonel alexander vindman. at the end of all of this, is the argument that republicans are trying to make have to do with the defense of the president's action or the

character of those that were making these concerns public? >> almost entirely the latter. this has been still even though we have seen these people, they've been given names, they've been given voices and they spoke both to people who were the career folks that josh was talking about and appointees to the trump administration, people like dr. fiona hill, both gave not only a cohesive story but spoke about principles, spoke about upholding the rule of law. fiona hill who was born in england and is now a u.s. citizen talked about how partisanship is making people lose trust in democracy. these are people who spoke out of a sense of honor and duty and that we'll have to see how that resonates with the american people as they digest these last two weeks of testimony, as they, you know, gather with their families this week ahead and discuss this. we will see if that moves the needle at all. but republicans have offered

absolutely no substantive defense of what has happened beyond in some cases saying that there was nothing wrong with t. for the most part they've disparaged the witnesses and disparaged the process of this impeachment probe. >> one of the most i would say probably iconic moments over this past couple weeks was at the end of marie yavonovich's testimony was a standing ovation and that speaks volumes to what kind of figure she has become in this narrative. let me play you this sound bite from the president because he has reacted a lot. >> this ambassador that everybody says is so wonderful, she wouldn't hang my picture in the embassy. she's in charge of the embassy. she wouldn't hang it. it took like a year and a half or two years for her to get the picture up. this was an obama person, didn't want to hang my picture in the embassy. it's standard is you put the president of the united states picture in the embassy. this was not an angel, this woman, okay?

>> that's not true. pretty sure she doesn't have a say in that but again that's not true. what do you make of his reaction to her and how important is she in this narrative? help us connect the dots of why she has become a central figure. >> that interview first of all contained -- that interview with the president on fox contained a variety of conspiratorial assertions. it's not out of character for him to behave this way. i can understand why they felt an affinity for the ambassador because what she alleged there was a concerted smear campaign on the part of the ukrainian government with the tacit complicity of the state department and the active involvement of somebody very close to the president and everybody sort of standing back and allowing this person to be besmirched to advance the political narrative. if you're a career civil servant and you're called to duty, that is what happens to you, that is chilling. that's how you get bad people in positions like this.

i would feel more sympathy, i suppose, for the president's narrative if he didn't try to do the same thing to bill tailor. he tried to assassinate his character. someone plucked out of retirement. so the president's conduct is less about how these ambassadors behave in ukraine and how he expects them to behave which is with less independence and more deference to the president. >> josh, is there any concern of retribution for these public figures that have now been named and faced as they continue on with their jobs? not necessarily from the white house but from the president's surrogates and certainly his supporters. >> yeah. one of the things that has really hit home for a lot of people that we've been speaking to out in the country and on the campaign trail is a lot of officials have been coming under fresh attack from the president on twitter and his allies and statements as they've been testifying. marie yovanovich tweeting about

her in a negative fashion. people are working there and they have to show up at work at the white house after they've been attacked by the white house. >> thank you all so much. after the break we'll check in with captain mark pocan. we're going to ask him about the mood after two weeks of testimony and where all of this is headed. his is headed. need it. with licensed agents available 24-7, it's not just easy. it's having-jerome-bettis- on-your-flag-football-team easy. go get 'em, bus! ohhhh! [laughing] c'mon bus, c'mon! hey, wait, wait, wait! hey man, i got your flag! i got your flag, man! i got your flag! it's geico easy. with licensed agents available 24/7. 49 - nothing! woo! itso chantix can help you quit slow turkey.

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welcome back to "kasie d.c.." joining me now, mark pocan of washington. let me first, if i can, get your reaction to the impeachment hearings that just wrapped up this week. do you think democrats have made a compelling evidence that the president should be impeached and ultimately removed from office? >> yeah. well, i think the witnesses did an amazing job in explaining exactly what happened, that this isn't just about one phone call and one transcript but months of activity by this white house, essentially, to get political dirt on an opponent's family member and, in doing so, withholding things like aid and visits to the white house until they got what they wanted. and that's breaking the law. no one is above the law in this country. and i think listening to trump

appointees, nonpartisan professionals and others making the case in their own words was really powerful. >> so far the impeachment investigation has focused on ukraine and the foreign policy around that. yesterday, foreign policy harry litman said that congress would lose its powers to investigate if trump's attack on congress itself is not added as an article of impeachment and that his conduct has been far worse than nixon's. what do you think of that allegation? >> well, you know, clearly, there's a whole bunch of people who should have been able to come and testify who weren't allowed to by the president. that's a real problem. you should be able to have people to come. clearly, no one could go there and say that the president could do nothing wrong. by him doing that obstruction, i agree. i think that all of those could be added to articles of

impeachment. >> there's a political calculation in all of this. marquette poll released wednesday says folks in your state of wisconsin are actually split as to whether president trump did something, quote, seriously wrong in his dealings of ukraine. 42% believe he did something seriously wrong, 38% don't. what does this say about the political makeup of wisconsin which, of course, as you know, could determine the 2020 race? >> we're a purple state. you look at our election results and you know that. one thing i would point out in that poll is that we also had, among independents, majority people who all know that he did something he's not supposed to. i think the real question are what are the consequences of it? there's an outlier among other polls. we're a state that everyone will be watching in 2020.

we're definitely a swing state. i think what's most important to people and what they care about is what the president is doing in not bringing jobs back to america, really devastating the rural economy, the farmers here, 1600 dairy farmers have closed since donald trump became president, directly related to the actions of the president via his tweets, tariffs and addressing climate change in other issues. people understand he did something wrong. i think a question might be around what the consequences of it r. >> let's talk about your home state. a piece this weekend arguing of the three northern battleground states, wisconsin could be the most difficult to convert. wisconsin's population is whiter than the other two. wisconsin's union infrastructure, a valuable source of voter mobilization

help has deteriorated thanks to scott walker's assault on public employee unions. >> however whenever we have a good turnout on a presidential race, we lean blue, maybe indigo, purplish blue, but just enough. the nominee didn't even come to the state after the primary. so we had a lot of issues to deal with. right now the national convention will be in milwaukee. we're going to have all sorts of infrastructure, and we're going to be talking about all these things that donald trump is doing that's hurting wisconsin. you can't have tariffs by twitter with china and not think it's going to have an impact on corn growers, soy bean growers, and this is all directly connected by actions of this president. people get that. what they're concerned about at their kitchen table is why they're not getting by any better since he has become president. in fact, they're doing worse. >> congressman mark pocan, thank

you for joining us, sir. so much to come tonight. breaking news on the secretary of the navy who has been fired. and senator cory booker live from his home state of new jersey. we'll talk about an impeachment vote that could disrupt his campaign and others running for office. stay with us. others running fo office stay with us ♪ ♪ applebee's new sizzlin' entrées. now starting at $9.99. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

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what are you doing back there, junior? since we're obviously lost, i'm rescheduling my xfinity customer service appointment. ah, relax. i got this. which gps are you using anyway? a little something called instinct. been using it for years. yeah, that's what i'm afraid of. he knows exactly where we're going. my whole body is a compass. oh boy... the my account app makes today's xfinity customer service simple, easy, awesome. not my thing. all right. welcome back to kasie d.c. secretary of the navy has been fired over his handling of the

case of navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher. we'll talk about that in a moment. and then there is this. >> are you afraid, mr. mayor, that you could be indicted? >> oh, wow. how long have you known me, ed? >> i've known you several years. >> do you think i get afraid? >> i don't know. >> i did the right thing. i represented my client in a very, very effective way. you should have jumped all over this in 2015 when this awful conflict was mentioned. >> sure. >> and it was hidden and suppressed by the washington press. >> but you don't -- >> the reality is, i'm embarrassing you, because you didn't do your job and i'm also going to bring out a pay for play scheme in the obama administration that will be devastating to the democratic party. i expected, the moment i heard biden's name. >> sure. >> i told my colleagues, they're going to try to kill me, because they're going to try to kill the messenger. but the mafia couldn't kill me.

your colleagues aren't going to kill me. >> lot to talk about there. lev parnas' seem iing willingne to roll over on rudy giuliani. and i'll talk to the top after two weeks of public impeachment trials or hearings, excuse me, this is still a country without a shared set of facts. "the washington post" is reporting on what it says are hundreds of administration documents that reveal efforts to generate an after-the-fact justification for a decision to hold up aid to ukraine and the debate over whether the delay was, in fact, legal. they're pushing forward without key witnesses like omb director mick mulvaney, who is at the set of it. and the words of top bureaucrats, many appointed by the president himself and some

who spoke with him directly. and in the senate, at least two gop committee chairs are going forward with investigations of their own, but their investigations are into the obama administration and joe biden. joining me now is democratic senator from new jersey and 2020 presidential candidate, cory booker. senator, great to have you with us. thank you very much for joining us this evening. >> thank you. it's really good to be on. >> have your democratic colleagues, do you think, made their case, or are there more pieces to put together on the impeachment front? >> well, clearly, there is. i mean, this is the problem with this whole investigation, is that you have a president that's refusing to submit himself to the checks and balances of congress, to the oversight of congress. he's refusing to allow key witnesses from mulvaney to giuliani, who could tell the full truth to us, could stand

before the american people. if they feel that they have a good defense, they could put it forward. it's unfortunate we're seeing such damning evidence to come through by a lot of key players and key pieces of evidence are being when would by a president who doesn't want to subject himself to the checks and balances of the united states constitution of government. >> so would you tell your democratic colleagues in the house to go to the courts, to make these legal fights to get mick mulvaney, to get mike pompeo, to get john bolton, to get in front of those committee hearings and testify, or do you think they need to hand this over now to the senate for both the senate to consider as well as the american public? >> well, look, first of all, nancy pelosi has been a brilliant strategist and leader on this, and i know that they are giving thought to all the strategies, but clearly, you know, i think this is one of those moments in america where the future is going to look back on us and say what did we do when the first president in

modern era really was trashing our constitutional ideals but not subjecting himself to oversight, by saying he's above the law. so i do think court fights are worthy of this point and i think the more truth the american public knows and probably the reason they're not allowing documents and people to come forward is because the more the public knows, the more damning it is to the administration. >> let's segue into the 2020 race. part that have has to do with impeachment. are you concerned that your colleagues may drag a senate trial out into 2020, use that to keep you and others off the campaign trail and ultimately knowing that the president may get exonerated, be buoyed by that and also hurt the democratic chances? >> well, let me just tell you right now, i swore an oath to protect and defend the constitution. i take it very seriously. i'm going to do my job, no matter what the consequences cost or what have you. this is a real moral moment in

history, and i believe we have a sacred obligation to just do our job. and so politics be damned, we'll see what happens. and if they -- if republican leadership, mitch mcconnell wants to play politics with this at a time that calls for patriotism, you know, again, that is despicable, frankly. but at the end of the day, i know my democratic colleagues, we're all going to be at our desks, in our chair. in fact, we'll swear an oath, another oath to be jurors. we will do our duty. >> all right. let's talk about the presidential race here for a moment. interestingly enough, you're getting a lot of praise for your performance on the debate stage wednesday. one of the things that you brought up, interestingly enough, again, was the obama coalition. let me play you this sound bite from the debate on wednesday night. >> please. >> we've got to re-create the obama coalition to win. that means women, people of

color, our lgbtq community, our labor unions, but that is how we are going to win this election. >> one of the reasons i was picked to be vice president was because of my relationship, longstanding relationship with the black community. i was part of that coalition. >> black voters are pissed off and they're worried. they're pissed off and the only time our issues seem to be paid attention to by politicians is when people are looking for their vote. >> that was one of the more remarkable moments of the evening. biden was at 44% and you at 2%. why do you believe you're struggling to get the african-american vote? >> well, let's just say that polls have never, ever been predictive of who go on to become president. no one leading the polls at this point have ever gone on to be president in our lifetimes. and they were predictive in 2008, hillary clinton would have

beat barack obama. at this point in that race she was way ahead of him in black votes. this is too early to be making conclusions. because in the past they've never held. the reality is i'm the person. in fact, i think the only person in this race, who has demonstrated their ability to increase massive turnout. cris christie, the african-american turnout was 14% in our state and on the normal november elections it dropped down to around 9% when there was competitive elections up and down the ballot. i'm confident in our ability, when we show our strength in iowa, new hampshire, states that we already lead every other campaign in endorsements from local leaders, state senators and mayors in those states. i'm confident when we do in iowa, which has been done in the past, that african-american voters, as they did with president obama, will begin to settle on their choice. at this point, the majority,

overwhelming majority of democrats have not made a final choice in this race. after this last -- i'll tell you, after this last debate, we are seeing tremendous momentum, breaking records, online fund-raising for our campaign, see more and more people come out to endorse us. i came from new hampshire where they were twice what we expected the crowds to be at every stop. we're following the pathway that everybody from our party has gone on to be president -- jimmy cart area at 1% right now, bill clinton, 4%, barack obama 20 points behind hillary clinton at this point. the polls don't concern me. we'll do the hard work of earning people's support and i think we'll upset in iowa. >> sir, if i can get your thoughts on national security and foreign polishes, starting with issues of great national security concern this evening, as you probably are fully aware, the secretary of the navy has been fired over this controversy surrounding navy s.e.a.l. eddie

gallagher. are you at all concerned that the military under this president is increasingly becoming politicized with these types of scandals and controversies? >> well, first of all, this president has been the most awful context, insulting, demeaning and degrading our military leadership, doing his military commander in chief duties through tweet, catching generals offguard, whether it was his announcements around north korea, whether it was pulling troops out of syria, or even insulting troops and going against what his generals were saying on polli inpulling trans americans out of the military, astonishingly offensively. this chapter doesn't surprise me at all. it's one of the worst relationships in the history of the presidency. >> right now in hong kong,

protesters, chinese government potentially cracking down on them. in iran, the government is cutting off the internet. by some counts as many as 200 people have died in protests. if you were president, sir, how would you handle these two international crises? >> first of all, the way he's going about fighting china, he talks about america first, really the way he's doing it is america isolated and america alone. he has been pulling afrom our allies in his fight with china. instead of joining with the european union, our north american allies to give a stronger front against the chinese, western democracies that can call out china for their human rights violations or what's happening in hong kong, he's putting tariffs and going to battle with our allies, a guy who has a better relationship with putin than he does macron or merkel. he clearly doesn't want to have america lead with our democratic values.

we should be speaking up about what's going on in hong kong withy full-throated support of the defense of the rights of the people who are there. it's not just hong kong. it's what's happening in saudi arabia, in turkey. this is a president who, all around the middle east, we're stumbling more and more to crisis because this president doesn't know how to handle foreign policy and represent american values. he's pulling away from the iran nuclear deal, paris climate accords. he is isolating america and the world is becoming a more perilous place where we see more human rights violations and more sad chapters like we're seeing in hong kong right now. >> the trump administration reversed a longstanding position of the united states government that israel's settlements in the west bank are a violation of international law and, therefore, illegal. do you agree with that change of position? what would you do if you were elected president on that issue?

>> look, first of all, israel is our critical ally. their right to exist, to defend themselves at a time that their state is under more peril, hez bowl hezbollah. help to elevate the laws of judaism. if i am not for myself, who will be for me? but if i am only for myself, what am i, if not now, when? human rights, right to two state solution, country of your own. we've had bipartisan presidents going back my entire lifetime, standing up for what we believe is justice, which is a two-state solution. to turn your back on that imperils our ally, israel, and definitely turns your back on the human rights of the

palestinian people. so we have a lot of work to do for our ally, israel, facing perilous challenges, but we definitely have to stand up for the ideals, sacred in the abrahamic faith of islam and christianity, of human rights, of human dignity, of decency, looking out for your neighbor and this is something that the president doesn't seem to understand. >> senator cory booker and 2020 presidential candidate, i appreciate your time. thank you for joining us this evening. >> no, thank you for your time. i hope that your viewers will go to cory booker.com and help us out as we have a lot of momentum in this campaign. >> the president dithers on plans to heavily regulate vaping. what's to happen next in the senate as jaws drop over what senator lindsey graham is doing now. plus -- >> are you aware of yesterday's daily beast story reporting the indicted ukrainian lev parnas

has been working with ranking member devin nunes? >> i'm not aware of that. >> betsy swan joins us with that. and, of course, kasie dvr. our producers watch the sunday shows so you don't have to. the y shows so you don't have to th the libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader, iphone or android and manage your diabetes. with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose levels any time, without fingersticks. ask your doctor to write a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. you can do it without fingersticks. learn more at freestylelibre.us and now for their service withto the community, we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. [ applause ]

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all of these comments, which are totally insulting. >> yeah.

>> i've seen things written like he's going to throw me under the bus. >> right. >> when i say that, i say he isn't but i have insurance. ridiculous! >> that is just sarcasm, believe it or not, according to the president's attorney. in fact, the daily beast betsy woodruff swan writes when rudy giuliani met with and asked him to investigate the bidens, lev parnas was at there. ukrainian prosecutor and devin nunes met in late 2018 and investigator for nunes informed they were investigating the activities of joe and hunter biden with respect to burisma. in return, five days later, nunes threatened to sue cnn and the daily beast and said this earlier today.

>> bottom line, were you in vienna with shokin? >> yes. look, maria, i really want to answer all these questions. i promise i will come back on the show and answer these questions. because there is criminal activity here, we're working with the appropriate law enforcement agencies, we're going to file all of this. everyone is going to know the truth. everybody is going to know all the facts, but i think you can understand that i can't compete by trying to -- trying to debate this out with the public media when 90% of the media are totally corrupt. >> wow! and with that, i would like to welcome in my panel, betsy woodruff swan, jake sherman and white house correspondent for pbs "newshour," yamiche alcindor. betsy, explain for us the state of play for lev parnas and what

he is doing. >> parnas is ain an interesting situation, to put it lightly. he is under indictment by the department of justice in the southern district of new york for violating america's campaign finance laws, an inindictment alleges he moved money from a foreign government official into the american campaign system. at the same time, though, of course, members of the house intelligence committee are very keen to hear what he has to say about his interactions with rudy giuliani in the lead-up to the impeachment inquiry being kicked off. thus far we've had tons of interesting and knowledgeable officials testify to house intel. think of all the names we have had in, we haven't had anyone with extensive firsthand knowledge, stretching over many months into what exactly rudy giuliani was up to, going all the way back into 2018 and looking at his involvement through nonofficial channels to influence the government of

ukraine. lev parnas would have that kind of visibility, in parts ayou highlighted, because he was literally at the table when rudy giuliani had a pivotal conversation with an aide to the president of ukraine, yermak and, according to giuliani himself, pressured the ukrainian government to take several steps. parnas is there. he's a witness. because he is under indictment in new york, he is likely reluctant to say anything to congress under oath because he wouldn't want to make his criminal case worse. it's likely that his lawyers are trying to get some level of immunity from congress so he would have some way of potentially shielding himself from anything he says being used against him in the southern district of new york. it's very much tbd if you are able to secure such immunity and if congress will offer it. >> then there's piece in "the washington post," about the

president entertaining at camp david, mulvaney has host ed. the casual itinerary includes making s'mores, going hiking, shooting clay pigeons and s shmoozing with trump officials, some of whom stay overnight with lawmakers. people who are being watched closely like will hurd, surprisily, came out and said there is no evidence for impeachment. give us the maneuvering that the white house is trying to orchestrate here. >> the white house does a lot of unusual things, obviously, over the last couple of years. this is probably the most usual this is something that barack obama got a lot of flack for not doing, to be honest with you, which is keep his party, keep lawmakers that should be sympathetic to him on his team. and that's what president trump is doing. that's what this white house has been actually pretty good doing

throughout time. but the political dynamic is most people go home. most republicans, at least in the house, go home to districts that are overwhelmingly for donald trump and overwhelmingly trump districts where they need to stick with the president. you don't see many people splitting. i don't think there will be one republican who votes against the president in the house of representatives. obviously, i think in the senate, barring some crazy revelation that we don't know about now, republicans are sticking with the president. so, yeah, the white house is doing a good job of keeping people in the loop. but they don't really need to be kept in the loop because the republican party, at this moment, especially on capitol hill, tilts toward the president in a major way. >> jake, really quickly, i don't know if you saw we interviewed chris coons, who talked to us about lindsey graham, who has now launched this investigation

into the bidens and burisma on behalf of the president in the senate. how is that playing out? >> it's very bizarre. a week or two ago, he said he didn't want to do this. he had a quite close relationship with biden when the two served in the senate for many years and before that, graham was in the house. the interesting thing will be here, the state department, which has resisted document production in the house's investigation, does it cough up documents here? that will be something to keep an eye on. to be honest, at the moment this is a side show because the house is going to pass its impeachment resolution, articles of impeachment, pass them to the senate. that's what that trial is going to be on. it's not going to be on hunter biden's involvement with burisma. it's going to be a trial about what the house passes out. >> yamiche, kellyanne conway saying that the house is prepared for any inevitably

regarding impeachment. do you get any sense that they want an expeditious trial or do they want to drag this out into 2020 for political reasons? >> i think in some ways it's a divided white house. you have mitch mcconnell saying i already know what the outcome is going to be. the president is going to be acquitted. you have the senate majority leader telling you what the outcome is, how much do you want this in the news? the president and sources around him said they welcomed an impeachment inquiry, they thought it would help the president solidify his base. for all accounts it seems to have done. the president is very focused on this impeachment inquiry, and you see the president not focusing on all the things that republicans want him to talk about, like the economy and other things. an elongated trial, yes, cory booker, senator warren and others could be stuck in the senate a long time when they could be essentially out for running for president.

you have a president, if it's a short quick thing, early maybe in january, long before possibly the iowa caucuses that he's been acquitted and democrats wasted their time for months after months. he's going to say this is 2.0 and they wanted to overthrow the 2016 election. i think that's why there's that tension there. the fact that the president doesn't want to be talking about this in some ways but it also solidifies his base. >> do you get any concern that mick mulvaney's name popped up once again as the washington post reported that the president is concerned about people like mike pompeo, like mick mulvaney, like john bolton, just that in the public domain that they were part of this allegation? >> it was interesting to see mick mulvaney respond through a lawyer, not the white house, but

through a lawyer when fiona hill essentially said he had something to do with it, he was part of the people pushing the president's agenda to get ukraine to investigate joe biden. his lawyer said no, dr. hill is wrong, that's not what this was and basically she's wrong. they were concerned enough that they wanted to talk about it. they did it through his personal attorney instead of his white house. they're not trying to put distance but want to make sure that mick mulvaney is sending his message that he has his own representation and that could also reflect whether he has any legal liability here. this is a white house that will have to be triaging this. secretary pompeo, former national security adviser john bolton, and so many people listed as people that could possibly be part of this through all the witnesses we saw this week. there are people who are absolutely concerned this is a

widening number. this isn't just president trump and rudy giuliani being pulled into this, but there are so many other people. i'll be joined live by senator gary peters who sits on the house intel committee. i'll ask him about the push of a conspiracy theory that it was ukraine, not russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. interfered in the 2016 election. i am totally blind. and non-24 can make me show up too early... or too late. or make me feel like i'm not really "there." talk to your doctor, and call 844-234-2424.

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senator kennedy, who do you believe was responsible for hacking the dnc and clinton campaign computers, their emails? was it russia or ukraine? >> i don't know, nor do you, nor do any of us. miss hill -- >> let me interrupt to say that the entire intelligence community says it was russia. >> right. but it could also be ukraine. i'm not saying that i know one way or the other. >> okay. let me repeat that for everyone one more time. the intelligence community has concluded it was not ukraine who meddled in 2016. it was, in fact, russia, who did so. fiona hill had a blunt message on this point for congress.

>> some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, ukraine did. this is a fictional narrative that is being perpetrated and propulgated by the russian security services themselves. >> "the new york times" reports that american intelligence officials informed senators and their aides in recent weeks that russia had engaged in a years long campaign to essentially frame ukraine as responsible for moscow's own hacking of the 2016 election. joining me now to talk about this, and much more, ranking democrat of the homeland security committee. what do you make, sir, of your republican colleagues and the continuation, as we just played there, that some of them continue to believe that ukraine was responsible for hacking or meddling in our 2016 elections? >> well, it's remarkable to hear

those comments. it is clear that it was the russians, as you mentioned, all the intelligence agencies of the u.s. government have been very clear that the russians meddled in our election, was a very concerted effort to do that, a very sophisticated effort, that it wasn't the ukrainians. i think the only person who has said it's utilize yanians is mr. putin. mr. putin put it out. the russians are probably smiling right now that they get some u.s. government, elected officials to say that it was ukraine when we all know that is absolutely false. >> it's probably in part because the president, in his own words, continuing to pedal conspiracy theories. he pushes that a ukrainian company has a hacked server belonging to the democratic national committee. let's listen to what he had to say about that on fox & friends. >> they gave the server to

crowdstrike or whatever it's called, which is a country -- which is a company owned by a very wealthy ukrainian. and i still want to see that server. you know, the fbi has never gotten that server. that's a big part of this whole thing. why did they give it toy aukrainian company? >> are you sure they did that? are you sure they gave it to ukraine? >> well, that's what the word is. >> for reference, crowdstrike is a cyber security firm based in california, here in the united states. they were hired by the dnc to investigate the breach. why do you think the president continues to push this false conspiracy theory? >> i don't know exactly what's behind that. but it's always curious that he never wants to admit that the russians were so active in the election when the evidence is overwhelming, he puts out these conspiracy theories. there's no evidence behind it. he continues to repeat it. then he gets some republican

senators, clearly who are very uncomfortable about the answers that they give. and the answers they give are disingenuous at best. it's clear it's the russians. they have to be very concerned because the russians will be engaged again in 2020 election. they have to be very vigilant about this. they have to understand the realities of what they're dealing with, be prepared to deal with the realities of that and understand that the russian motive behind all of this is to create chaos. they do it not just in the united states but in european countries. their goal is to undermine western democracies, create this chaos and the president feeds into that. he's feeding into it, probably, to satisfy his own political agenda. it is clearly contemporary to america's national security and to the very basis of our dem kras and the values we stand for. >> kellyanne conway suggested that, if, in fact, it moves to a

senate trial they will go on the offense. 2016 white house meetings between the obama administration and the ukrainian government were requested just this week. senator johnson, as you very well know, chairman of the very same committee that you're on, sir, this does suggest that the republicans are starting their counter investigation. what do you make of this if, in fact, everything plays out as expected? >> it's hard to say. we haven't really heard any counter arguments. some very disturbing things have come out. they're pursuing their constitutional obligation to get to the facts. it's unfortunate that the administration is not providing documents that they should. congress is a co-equal branch of government. the american people need transparency in order to get to the facts, particularly when you're dealing with issues of national security. we have yet to see exactly what the counter arguments are, which leads me to believe that they

really aren't there. >> finally, sir, let me get your thoughts. the democrats on the house side, do you tell them that they should, in fact, pursue court battles to get people like mike pompeo, mick mulvaney, john bolton to come forward in front of their panel? >> i'm not going to say whether they should vote on articles of impeachment. i will be act iing as a juror i the senate if those articles do, in fact, come over. certainly the testimony that i've seen and that the american people have seen is very, very damaging, and the fact that the administration is unwilling to provide documents tells you that perhaps they realize those documents are not helpful to their case in any way and they're going to try to prevent those documents and that testimony from coming forward and that should tell a story to the american people that,

indeed, this path that we're going down is a very serious one and deserves the attention of the american people. >> senator gary peters of the state of michigan. sir, thank you very much for joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> stop us if you've heard this one before. a billionaire in new yorker promises not to take a salary and doesn't need political donors, because he can't be bought. sound familiar? michael bloomberg is making his case for president official. g h case for president official. sundown vitamins are all non-gmo, made with naturally sourced colors and flavors and are gluten & dairy free. they're all clean. all the time. even if sometimes we're not. sundown vitamins. all clean. all the time.

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hand-wringing cold, in early states where bloomberg has indicated he will not compete. betsy woodruff swan, jake and yamiche alcindor. >> he's obviously making the calculation that the current field allows for some space for someone with his platform to enter the race. so he's looking at this as saying, okay, i'm not going to fight for the first early states but i can do something in the states that are more diverse. the key here, of course, is that michael bloomberg for african-americans, people of color and many voters across the country think of stop and frisk. hispanics were being stopped and african-americans were being stopped all over new york city because police were essentially racially profiling them.

even when it was found unconstitutional, he angrily said that nothing would change. he just reversed course saying he apologizes for that. i think a lot of candidates will be, one, focusing on that tactic in particular. a democratic primary still runs right through african-american communities. the second thing, of course, is that no one has been able to touch joe biden when it comes to his support among african-americans. i've talked to voters, especially in south carolina, who see joe biden as not just a good person because he was the vice president of barack obama, but as someone who really reflects the decision-making of barack obama. i had voters tell me, i don't want to overrule president obama by going with someone else because if he was good enough for obama, why should i turn on joe biden. that, to me, was something different that i hadn't heard when i wasn't talking to voters. >> put yourself in michael bloomberg's position for a second. he surveys the spectrum of the 2020 field. where is the void that he thinks is not being represented that he could make a play for?

you have a diverse field politically speaking as well as experience wise. why wha is it that he thinks he is bringing that no one else can? >> considering he's worth $55 billion, i would like to put myself in his position but that's not a position i'll find myself in any time soon. i think he is discounting the democratic primary field. he's not participating in the traditional early states. he must be thinking that there is an opening for somebody who could pull from the traditional establishment wing of the democratic party and i'm not sure what other wing of the democratic party, but if you believe the democratic base at this moment is turning against billionaires, i don't know why he thinks there's an opening for him. perhaps if he gets through in a general election, could he be seen as a technocrat who manages well and is not bought by any specific interest? i suppose there's that scenario,

but there is a path to the nomination that we know works, because we've seen it a number of times and he's not taking that path. but listen, $30 million on television is a big deal, and it's going to reach a lot of people. but we just don't know what this looks like, because it's not been done before. and everything we hear out of the tenor of this nominating process is opposite to what michael bloomberg would bring to the table. so, i don't quite understand it. i don't understand how you could look at this field and say i, the guy who is worth $55 billion from new york city, is what we need. but perhaps i'm missing something. >> betsy, really quickly here, what's the path forward for him? others have pointed out he will not be taking contributions. that may make it difficult for him, effectively, to get on the debate stage. does he need to be on the debate stage to have a chance at winning this nomination? >> it strikes me as very

farfetched to think that bloomberg can become the nominee of the democratic party without participating in any presidential debates and without seriously competing in iowa and new hampshire. we live in a weird political time and stranger things have happened but i just find that to be not particularly credible. one point a number of folks have made about bloomberg's huge spending, obviously, is that $30 million is a ton of money. m money doesn't necessarily mean look back historically. jeb bush raised boatloads of cash, invested a ton in trying to be competitive in the early states and we all know what happened with his candidacy. they did not take off. even though bloomberg is willing to shovel money at having these campaign ads doesn't necessarily mean you'll see his polling numbers rocket upwards. >> thank you all very much for joining us. up next, the president appears to be ditherring when it

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president trump hosted a tense meeting with vaping industry executives and public health executives at the white house. the president is reportedly considering backing off his original decision to ban e flavored cigarettes. "the new york times" reports his allies in the vaping industry have have warned about push back from voters in the president's base. they are concerned president could lose votes in swing states by cracking down on flavored products. listen to those remarks compared to what he said on friday. >> we can't allow people to get sick. we can't have our youth be so affected. people are dying with vaping, so we're looking at it very closely. >> you watch prohibition. if you don't give it to them, it's going to come here illegally. they're going to make it. but instead of legitimate

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if this were a courtroom drama, the democrats would seem to have all the evidence they need. >> two weeks. >> 12 witnesses. >> 30 hours of televised

testimony. >> some of the highlights. >> everyone was in the loop. >> it was no secret. >> president trump doesn't give a blank about you. >> the evidence is already overwhelming. >> republicans fought back fiercely, arguing the testimony was hearsay. >> he used words like presume and guess. >> guess word, hearsay, no direct evidence. >> the president's own chief of staff has admitted they withhold the military aid. >> what matters is whether it was an illegal quid pro quo. >> when the jig was up, yes, then the aid was release sgd. >> john dean, john mitchell, you don't have any of that. >> we don't have as many courageous men in the white house. >> i was also struck by dr. hill's testimony. >> she said this is false narrative. >> was it russia or ukraine? >> i don't know. nor do you. nor do any of us. >> it was the russians. we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. >> the entire intelligence community says it was russia. >> right.

but it could also be ukraine. and that is the kasie dvr. that does it for us tonight on kasie dc. up next ari melber hosts "impeachment: white house in crisis." for now good night from new york. good evening. welcome back to our msnbc special series, "impeachment: white house in crisis." tonight's program is the first since the house intelligence committee finished its scheduled hearings and the first since this new testimony from key witnesses testified and explained trump himself was directing the ukraine bribery plot portraying conspiracy at the highest levels of the white house. chairman schiff laying the ground work for articles of impeachment and our special panel of experts digs in on all of this tonight. we're excited to have them. while no single human could consume and make sense of 30 hours of testimony this week, our msnbc team of journalists, reporters and lawyers has