percio, treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve ratner. an msnbc contributor, karine jean-pier jean-pierre, good morning to you all. we're going to get to some more impeachment news. let's start with this new poll, the latest national quinnipiac university poll has mayor pete buttigieg surging nationally to second place. joe biden hanging onto a lead at 24%. he's up three points since last month. elizabeth warren's support has been cut in half in just a month down 14 points since october. she now sits in third place within the margin of error. biden leads the field in support among women voters. buttigieg follows in second place with older voters and leads among white voters with no college degree. let's keep that up for a second, elizabeth warren the original poll down 14 points. she was at 28 a month ago, down to 14 right now.

why? because if you look inside this poll, support for medicare for all plummeting down to 36% support. >> yeah, it's pretty simple. this country, you can't tell 160 million people you're going to take something away they already have. and i also think the electability thing. i've said this all along. i do not think she is electable. i think she would get trounced in a landslide with trump. i also think she has a likability issue. this is not a gender thing, this is tone and manner thing, i think the american public, the more they see the more they're going this is not the answer. >> actually, she was doing well on her performance out on the campaign trail. it was when she put forth a policy that they said whoa, whoa, whoa, i don't want 160 million people to lose their hundreds. >> i would respectfully slightly disagree. i think she's run a formidable cam campaign. as a person, the 70,000 selfies, she's a natural, and it's

interesting that someone who was in a classroom until 11 years ago to get out there and perform so well. i think the medicare for all thing is resonating. there was a story in the times yesterday about candidates in the heartland saying you can't -- i think her electability is a factor as well. i would want to see another poll. h this is one poll. >> it could also be a timing thing with elizabeth warren that she may have peaked a little too early. she had a really good ground game. the marylaedicaid for all hurt . that all happened at a time when the hunter biden stuff exploded. biden was getting all the attention. she really after the debate before the last one she got crushed on that stage, was taking fire from everybody. i think it could have also been a timing thing. >> i want to look at likability

numbers. i do think there's an electability issue there. >> as i say, she was surging until she put out this -- officially put out the poll for medicare for all. karine, so joe biden, again, after another perceived poor performance at a debate holding on, yes, had is a national poll. no, the election is not a national referendum. he's holding steady at the top there. >> yeah, he's holding steady, and he has been for the last couple of months. a lot of it is the name i.d., people know joe biden. they like joe biden. you have older african-americans who are really holding those numbers pretty steady for him, so it's not vur prisurprising, been seeing this for several month, even with the gaffes, even with the campaigns he's been running. i've got to go back to what donny said, the likability thing it's so problematic to hear. it's always connected to female candidates. women candidates. >> oh, karine. >> it is. i have not likability --

>> i think bernie is unlikable. >> bernie's more unlikable. >> with any of the male candidates. you don't hear that type of language, so we need to be very -- >> bernie sanders -- >> well, i have to just make sure that i flag that and disagree with you on that one. also electability, elizabeth warren, head to head you see elizabeth warren, biden, you've even seen kamala harris beating donald trump. i know it's a head to head and it's early, but we have to be mindful on how we talk about this. we've got to be really careful. here's what i'll say about the polling. this is one poll. there's going to be many, many polls. we're still two months away from the first -- from the first person to cast their vote, and it is going to be a wild ride from now until caucus day, iowa, which will be the first time that voters get to go out there and speak their mind and lay out their vote and caucus for their candidate. also, if we go back to 2008 or 2012 or we look at 2008, hillary

clinton was up by 20 points. rudy giuliani was up by 13 points this time. it is still going to be a very wild ride, and we just have to see. i almost say -- i want to say like ignore the polls for a moment, and we'll see where we are when we get closer. >> donny you're on an island this morning. >> a poll that says elizabeth warren would beat donald trump in texas, which means we should not be listening to polls. >> i agree we shouldn't be listening to polls. what i'm saying is we should be really mindful of how we talk about these. when we talk about women candidates, likability comes up all the time, all the time. >> maybe i'm too woke, when i say somebody's not likable. i think bernie sanders is even less likable, but i do think there's a certain strideness to both of them that i don't know if america wants to invite them into their living rooms every night. >> elizabeth warren has proven she's very likable. now medicare for all has been a

bump in the road for her, absolutely. when you have thousands and thousands of people waiting for you to take a selfie, that does mean something. and so that's why we need to be careful with that, especially when it comes to women candidates. >> you don't get 20,000 people into washington square park if you don't have some element of likability. >> i think you do. >> as a matter of fact. >> the name of amy first book ws often wrong, never in doubt. >> #toowoke. >> we will come back to this discussion in a moment. let's turn to a number of developments in the impeachment investigation at a campaign rally in the swing state of florida last night, the president, again, denied that the political investigations he sought from ukraine were tied to military aid despite weeks and weeks of testimony to the contrary. however, documents released from the office of management and budget show the white house initiated the move to freeze the aid on the same day as his july

25th phone call with the president of ukraine. at the same time, two sources telling the "new york times" this morning that the president was aware of the whistle-blower complaint when he released the aid. also notable, the president is now putting some distance between himself and his personal attorney rudy giuliani. here's president trump talking to bill o'reilly. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy. rudy, i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine, and i think he canceled a trip, but you know, rudy has other clients other than me. i'm one person. >> you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no, but -- no, but, you have to understand, rudy is a great corruption fighter. he felt personally insulted by what happened during my campaign because there were a lot of bad things happening. >> giuliani's your personal lawyer, so you didn't direct him to go to ukraine to do anything or put any heat on him? >> no, i didn't direct him. he is a warrior.

rudy's a warrior. rye rudy went, i think he's done work in ukraine for years. >> that does not explain the july 25th phone call when the president repeatedly urged ukraine's president to work with rudy giuliani. it also doesn't square up with the testimony from ambassador gordon sondland at the impeachment inquiry last week that he, energy secretary rick perry and ambassador kurt volker, quote, worked with mr. giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the united states. lets bring in david ignatius. good morning. so more grist for the mill and really these stories that continue to come out sort of just under gird all the testimony you've heard from the last couple of weeks. >> i think the whole question of rudy incorporated, what he was doing in ukraine, what he was doing other places around the world are going to be a feature of the next few weeks. there is a grand jury meeting in the southern district of new

york that's looking at giuliani's associates. to what extent does rudy have some role in the activities that they're investigating, the two gentlemen, mr. parnas and mr. fruman and several people who worked with them. this investigation's fascinating because each new tranche of testimony, each new set of documents basically takes the story further down the road that we already understand, and undercuts the explanations that the white house has offered. i think it's really significant that we now know that the president would already have been aware of the whistle-blower complaint saying there was something wrong and troubling in this july 25 phone call between president trump and president zelensky of ukraine. he already knew there was a complaint about it when he made that histrionic statement from gordon sondland, i want nothing,

i want nothing, i don't want a quid pro quo. just an odd statement on its face, why would you call somebody and say that. now that we know he already would have been informed there was an investigation into precisely that issue, i think tens to und tends to undercut some of the white house defense. we'll now go into the phase where jerry nadler will try to pull all this evidence together into some kind of articles of impeachment presumably. whether jerry nadler will be as effective a communicator of information as adam schiff has been as chairman of the house intelligence committee phase of the investigation remains to be seen, but this train's still moving pretty fast. >> susan, if you look at the -- not the transcript, the summary of the july 25th phone call that the white house put out, again, and again, rudy giuliani's name comes up. the president said to president zelensky, rudy very much knows what's happening. he's a very capable guy. if you could speak to him, that would be great. what the president did last night while talking to bill o'reilly was the definition of

gaslighting, which is to say here's this thing you know to be true. you heard it. you saw it on the page because i released the summary of the phone call but now i'm going to say it didn't happen. >> that's what donald trump always does when he gets caught in something. first he denies, then he delays what he's got to do, and then he deflect, but it's not surprising. i think there's a certain amount of heat coming down on the former mayor, new york city, rudy giuliani, the southern district court, and donald trump's probably getting a little nervous about that, and having yet another person who is associated with some kind of crime directly connected to the president. >> donny, it's ridiculous we have to say this out loud that rudy was of course working on behalf of president trump. he said it himself, he tweeted i was out defending my client when i was looking into these marrieds marrie matters in ukraine.

>> i would suggest rudy giuliani and some of the other president's men go take a trip and see what it feels like in prison and understand -- he's not doing hard time. he's not in danger, but the depressing nature of being locked up where you can't leave. i think rudy and some of the others should do a check and go up and see what that feels like before they decide how this is going to play out. a career official in the office of management and budget undercut the white house's defense for freezing security aid to ukraine during closed door testimony. associate director for national security mark sandy explained to impeachment investigators earlier this month he received an e-mail from the white house chief of staff mick mulvaney's office on july 12th directing a ukraine hold on that aid. as of july 26th a day after president trump's call with president zelensky, sandy testified that the omb office did not know why the money was being withheld. sandy then raised legal concerns that the unexplained hold could

violate appropriation laws to his higher up, michael duffy. duffy, a political appointee took the lead on approving omb funds for foreign aid, a process typically overseen by career officials. sandy testified it was not until around september the 9th days before the money was released he was told the reason for the initial halt was because of president trump's desire to see other countries contribute more aid to ukraine. sandy added two career officials in the omb office resigned over their frustrations surrounding the unknown reason for the aid holdup. this is more testimony, this is more evidence that adam schiff has to work with. we didn't know about this specifically, that mr. sandy said officials were resigning in protest of this unexplained holdup for a long time of aid to ukraine. >> i think we were talking about this a little bit before the show. i think everything that comes out is of a piece. there are very few facts that contradict other facts.

everything builds on what we already know. at this point i don't think the facts are really in dispute. i think we know what happened and all these things add a little color and paint to the picture. i would say having hung around washington for a long time, i have never heard of career officials resigning over something like this. this is a pretty unprecedented world that we're in in terms of how people are choosing to obey the law and obey the policies. >> the evidence is in front of us. the evidence is in front of congress. everyone knows what happened here. we've heard it from witness after witness. the question has been will republicans break ranks and vote against the president. and in that same poll that we were talking about, the quinnipi quinnipiac poll with the democratic race they also did polling about impeachment. the numbers show since october 23rd, so before all this public testimony we saw, support for president trump being impeached and removed from office has actually fallen. so it was at 48% in october, down to 45% now within the margin of error. the point is the public in this

poll and others we've seen has not moved on this question despite all that testimony. >> look, i think that what we're seeing, though, is the democrats doing a pretty good job and laying out a very clear case on impeachment, and i think the numbers are steady. i do think when you look at 50% in the cnn poll and that came out yesterday, those are historically high numbers. this time in watergate we were nowhere near 50%. when you look at clinton's impeachment, his high mark was 29%. so we are at historical numbers, and look, that "new york times" reporting that we saw from last night that you guys have been talking about, it basically proved what democrats were saying last week during the hearing. the only reason that trump released the aid is because he got caught. so if you look at it in its

totality, all the excuse that trump and republicans are putting out, the conspiracy theories that they're peddling, all of it, the lies, has now been debunked, so they are going to have to make a serious, serious calculation here or thinking, which is are they going to hold up to their oath, or are they going to follow donald trump? do they believe in the rule of law, or do they believe that the president of the united states is not above the law? these are really serious things that history is going to be watching for republican. but i think the biggest problem in the polling is that republican -- republican voters aren't moving, and i think that's where -- that's why republicans are where they are, and we're just going to feel to keep -- i think democrats are just going to have to keep plugging along now that it's in the judiciary piece of the hearing is happening next week. >> if you're a democrat, if you're adam schiff who's been running this investigation, i think you've done a pretty good job of making a clear case to the american public. those numbers to a democrat have to be disheartening.

>> disheartening, and the thing that works against the democrats is the 24/7 news psych cycle. watergate, you would hear a bomb shell, once on the 6:00 news and morning papers. in certain ways the more we continue to chew on this story, like yesterday's news, the more people get almost numb to it. like we keep thinking we're putting more, and more and more against this and those numbers tell you something that the american public has a capacity to kind of absorb on a certain level, and then there's diminishing returns, and you know, this cycle is working, and if we get 27 more facts against this it almost doesn't even help it anymore. keep it -- i almost wish we could just wrap this up tomorrow. the unfortunate thing is we do know how this story ends, and that is what is so sad, and the thing i've said all along is you need to take the impeachment and make it a bigger story. make it about a president's betrayal. he will betray you on health

care. we talked about about this last week. he'll continue to betray you on taxes. this in and of itself is not going to be an issue that decides this election. >> there's also something else that's a lot different than water fwa watergate. it's the way people get their information. people usually now get their information based in news silos. they're conservative and liberal, and that's where they go and see the clips they want. when you look at what the republicans did during the hearings, which i completely disagree with, they were not playing to everybody. they were playing to a certain group of people that watch conservative media, and they were successful in doing that. they were also very successful in saying basically providing jury nullification to the american public saying, all right, so we did it, but you know, you're not going to impeach him for it. and i think that's reflected in the numbers there. what also is not reflect instead that number and people should not confuse this with the amount of -- the popularity of the president, what they approve of. they do not approve of the president, so it's not -- it really is in that impeachment

lane, not in a re-election lane in looking at him. >> and so far not a single republican shown that he or she is going to move away from the president of the united states. still ahead on a too woke edition of "morning joe," the house judiciary committee has announced it will hold its first public impeachment hearing next week, and president trump has been invited to participate. plus, senator and 2020 candidate bernie sanders slow jams the news. but first, bill karins has a look at the forecast. hey, bill. >> good morning, willie. one of the most difficult travel forecasts i've ever given the day before thanksgiving. denver yesterday 8 to 12 inches of snow. you're waking up in minneapolis to a lot of sne ow also, very, very difficult conditions out there. some of the worst of it will be continuing in areas of minnesota this morning and into wisconsin. that's where we could have some of the worst travel delays out there as we go throughout the next 24 hours, too. we have 19 million people with winter storm warnings. almost all of the west, we had a historic storm move onshore yesterday in california.

it was the lowest pressure ever, ever measured in the state, so that's one of the things that we're dealing with out here, and we also have very windy conditions we're going to deal with over the next two days. let's talk about your get away travel day forecast here. in the great lakes we have a lot of wind we're going to deal with today as the storm exits, areas like minneapolis will get windy after the snow ends. chicago could have 50 miles per hour wind gusts. major airport delays in detroit. in the east we will have some delays, but it's not going to be major. just a little bit of rain and wind late today. and with that west coast storm, strong winds, on and off heavy rain in san francisco, even los angeles, and evening san diego could have significant airport delays as we go throughout the day. for thanksgiving day, we do the same thing all over again with those winds in the northeast, we could have some significant delays. obviously we had two huge storms on the map. we could have major delays in a lot of areas. philadelphia, it looks like tbet of the forecast for you is today. as of now the roads okay. you're watching "morning joe."

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i am proud of the nations--e donations we receive no matter how small. >> mm-hmm mm-hmm. you got to listen to my bed headed pro ham. he might not have a super pac, but he's packing something super. he's all about taking a firm stance against corporations to give the people what they desire. >> i know you're joking, but it actually is quite sexy. >> man, just the way you said that has got me feeling the bern. >> bernie sanders upstairs in this building last night slow jamming the news with jimmy

fallon. during a wide ranging news conference at the state department yesterday, secretary of state mike pompeo appeared to support the conspiracy theory often pushed by president trump that ukraine was behind the hack of the dnc in 2016. >> do you believe that the u.s. and ukraine should investigate the theory that it was ukraine and not russia that hacked the dnc e-mails in 2016? >> anytime there is information that indicates that any country has messed with american elections, we not only have a right but a duty to make sure we chase that down. >> david ignatius, that's the secretary of state now promoting a theory that was in the farrest darkest corners of the internet not long ago until it made its way to the white house and the phone call of president trump and zelensky. now the secretary of state saying yeah, we ought to look into that as well. >> not only was this a sort of

far right conspiracy theory, it was a far right conspiracy theory that has been specifically investigated by our intelligence community, and we had news last week that the intelligence community briefed senior members of the senate on its conclusion that this conspiracy theory, this idea that it was really ukraine, that somehow the crowd strike investigation that started interest in russian hacking actually was conducted from ukraine. that whole, you know, bundle of crazy theories was a deliberate russian deception operation, planned by russian agencies to deflect blame from them and put it on ukraine. and what's astonishing is to see mike pompeo not simply current secretary of state but former director of the central intelligence agency, who if anyone should take seriously that strand of investigations is

basically a counter intelligence critique of what's being pushed on capitol hill. that was extraordinary. we have not heard the last of this question of what the russian intelligence services were doing to try to confuse and deflect and the way in which key republicans starting with president trump seem to have gotten caught up in that, taken the narrative as their own. now the latest is pompeo, but again, we'll see whether our intelligence agencies are willing to make clear to the country, to lawmakers and then the public what they know. >> susan, you watch that quote from the secretary of state and you can't help but think about dr. fiona hill's testimony where she led in her opening statement by saying it was russia. it was not ukraine. i study this for a living. you guys don't know what you're talking about, and in fact, by propagating this conspiracy theory about ukraine, you are doing russia's bidding.

that's the conspiracy theory they hoped you'd pick up on, and here you are talking about it in these hearings. >> and it's a really dangerous thing that the secretary is doing by peddling the ukraine narrative. it also says to our allies, to the people we're negotiating with on a whole host of issues around the world, we will believe nonsense. we will spout it. you can't trust our words, and just once i wish i'd hear someone from either the elected republican or someone from this administration say, yes, we are concerned about fighting -- investigating people who meddle in investigations including the president because we know he did meddle in it. he said so. >> and we also know from the testimony last week that everyone was in the loop. remember that quote from ambassador sondland? so mike pompeo was on that list of everyone who was in the loop. he was asked yesterday at that same news briefing whether he would be willing to testify. >> the president tweeted just a short while ago that he'd

encourage you essentially to testify in the impeachment investigation. is that something you're considering? >> when the time is right, all good things happen. >> if you're just listening on the radio, he said that with a smirk on his face. david ignatius, what are the odds that we see a mike pompeo, a john bolton, a mick mulvaney, a rudy giuliani seated in that chair across from congress? >> so if there is a senate trial of impeachment charges from the house, then i think we will see them as witnesses. i think it would be very hard to refuse a request that we come from the chief justice because he will preside over that impeachment trial, and if he requests testimony from pompeo and all the rest, i think he's likely to get it. pompeo on the witness stand would make mark meadows or jim jordan look like pushovers. see that smirk. he would be a tough witness. he is an ambitious, tough

politician. the fascinating thing to think about when you watch mike pompeo is this man wants to be president, and he's weighing what's the best way to do that. do i jump ship? do i try to hold onto the trump base and the coat tails of my boss? it's one of the more interesting side shows in this whole drama. >> yeah, look, he may want to be president. he may want to be senator from kansas, but the thing about pompeo that is so disappointing is here you've got a guy from west point first in his class, an upstanding reputation until now, won't even defend the career people in his department against all of these attacks and charges from his own administration. obviously isn't cooperating himself, and he and bill barr, i think, are two of the greatest disappointments of people that you thought had some integrity, and then they get in the trump orbit and suddenly they're frankly prostituting themselves along with a will the of othlot people. >> as david said, he was the

director of the cia. he obviously knows better than what he's saying. coming up next, president trump's son-in-law and senior adviser jared kushner has a new job, overseeing the construction of the southern border wall where there might be little for him to actually oversee. steve ratner has some charts next on "morning joe." ♪ i'm your 70lb st. bernard puppy, and my lack of impulse control, is about to become your problem. ahh no, come on. i saw you eating poop earlier. hey! my focus is on the road, and that's saving me cash with drivewise. who's the dummy now? whoof!

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of. this week we learned that president trump has entrusted the construction of his proposed border wall to his son-in-law and senior adviser jared kushner. current and former administration officials tell "the washington post" kushner effectively has become the wall's project manager. the move obviously not without controversy as kushner reportedly has butted heads with officials in acquiring land and constructing at a pace the president wants. according to the post it is, quote, paramount to trump that at least 400 miles be built by election day. the trump administration has finished 83 miles of barriers so far according to the latest cbp

figures, but nearly all of that is classified as replacement wall. it's not new wall. the white house declined to comment on the report, and the paper notes kushner's defenders in the administration say he is bringing a private sector approach to the project. that brings us to steve ratner's chart. it's not just "the washington post" reporting, it's also the commissioner of customs and border protection who said from the podium at the white house, 83 miles of wall, all of it just renovation of existing wall. there has been no new wall. there is no new wall. >> not quite, but let me come to that quickly. >> what? that's what he said. >> no, no, there is new wall but let us build ourselves to that. >> go ahead. >> lets just start with the fact that there's 1954 miles of border between us and mexico. trump has pledged to create his kind of wall on a thousand miles of that. 654 miles of fencing of one sort or another exists now.

that would be replaced as part of his thousand miles. and as you said earlier, 83 miles of replacement wall has actually been built so far. but there has been some new wall started. there are eight miles of new wall that has been started. would anyone like to hazard a guess on how much of the eight miles of new wall that has been started has actually been finished? >> susan del percio? >> how about none? >> close, 32 feet. they have actually completed 32 feet of new wall. so let's take a look at what trump is up against or what jared kushner is up against. as you heard, they want to have 450 feet plus or minus of wall completed by the next election day. 285 of that would be simply replacement wall, so more replacement wall, not really adding any new wall. 60 feet of it is what's called duplicate fencing when you put a second wall in front of an existing wall to make it more

secure. what does it come down to, it comes down to 165 feet of new wall is all they're really trying to build out of the thousand feet trump promised between now and election day. even that will be really tough. it will require them to quadruple the pace of construction they're at now. it will require them to get 800 permits to cross private land in texas to put this wall up. there are very few people who think it is going to happen. >> i have to read you a quote from two weeks ago at the white house. peter alexander got into this exchange with the acting commissioner cbp, finally got mr. morgan to say right now 78 miles have been built, have been built where there was an existing form of barrier, so he was saying, yeah, there's 78 miles of wall. finally peter alexander got him to admit it's where there was already existing wall. >> you're suggesting there is new wall? >> eight miles started. 32 feet complete. >> we're talking about a 32 foot difference in our argument. >> that would be a really boring video to watch. jared kushner wants to put

cameras on the wall to do like web streaming of the construction. >> jared kushner, what people should feel warm and fuzzy about. the mideast is in better shape than ever. he is a stallion of competency. you know, the wall is the ultimate symbol of donald trump, this ongoing thing, this complete fabrication, this complete lie, this absurdity that if it wasn't so sad it'd be laughable, is the ultimate symbol of his presidency. a complete head fake. >> let me show you one other thing. what's ironic about all of this, in fact, is there was this surge. everybody remembers the surge of the immigrants from the so-called northern triangle, guatemala, honduras, and el s salvad salvador. it has actually dropped down to historically -- you know, to historically lower levels it existed at before. the reason you haven't been reading about the surge lately is because there hasn't been a surge. whether you like it or not, it really is a result of trump

policies. he basically threatened mexico with tariffs unless they moved the army in to secure the border. he got the northern triangle countries to agree to limit their immigration. the wall may now be a solution in search of a problem. >> donny, i think you're right, had this is a promise that was made from the minute he came down the escalator. they're still chanting it last night at his rally in florida, and he's going out there and claiming that something is happening that's not happening as steve's charts show right there. coming up on moe"morning jo pete buttigieg has had trouble attracting african-american voters. freshly examined comments he made about minorities and education is sparking new backlash. the reverend al sharpton and professor michael eric dyson join us for that discussion. "morning joe" will be right back. sundown vitamins are all

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just this week i stuck up for three great warriors against the deep state. and you know what i'm talking about. i have so many people say, sir, i don't think you should do that. people have to be able to fight. these are great warriors. they can't think, gee, whiz, if i make a mistake -- you know what they were doing? they wanted to put them in jail for 25 years. one young man was in jail for seven years. he had 16 more years to go, and i want to tell you when you look at what they did to that man, you would have been very proud at what we ended up doing. he came out. he hugged his parents. it was a beautiful thing.

it was a beautiful thing. we gave him a pardon because we're going to take care of our warriors. and i will always stick up for our great fighters, people can sit there in air conditioned offices and complain, but you know what? doesn't matter to me whatsoever. they're out in that field, and they're doing a job for us like nobody else anywhere in the world can do. >> that's president trump at a campaign rally in florida last night touting his decision to intervene in the cases of three service members accused of war crimes. david, i want to get to your column in "the washington post" in just a moment, but first, the president of the united states says he saved these three men from the deep state. the protests raised over the president's intervention in these cases were raised by secretaries of the navy, who was fired eventually, secretary spencer, and also by gallagher's

only fellow navy s.e.a.l.s who testified against him. so he's calling the united states military the deep state here. >> that's what i found most shocking in reading this last night after the move from his florida rally. to describe the s.e.a.l. commanders who have been overseeing the attempts to adjudicate and more appropriate punish s.e.a.l.s who have broken the code of conduct, been court-martialed for their actions, to describe those commanders as the deep state is just a new assault by donald trump on the military institution of american life that we generally separate from political criticism. to call the three soldiers who were convicted in these processes, one was facing trial still, an army officer warriors

without looking at the crimes that they're accused of having committed, again, will shock commanders. what i think president trump doesn't realize is that these elite units and the s.e.a.l.s are the most elite of all of our so-called tier one units, require extraordinary standards of behavior. that's why they're so effective. once a month, there is a procedure in which a s.e.a.l.'s trident pin is removed by a board of his peers because his conduct has been judged inappropriate, violating the very strict rules. this is an organization in a sense that runs on absolute maximum discipline and accountability. president trump has just thrown a -- you know, a wrench into that delicate structure, and if you want to understand why navy secretary richard spencer, but

in my experience dozens of other senior officers, commanders in the pentagon are troubled -- i want to say traumatized by what president trump has done -- it's because this whole organization rests on the most rigorous system of discipline, and the president has just called it the deep state, made it a political enemy. he's poe littliticized the one in our national life that needs to escape politics. >> you have to consider the list of people president trump does not consider in the deep state is shrinking rapidly. the united states military, fellow navy s.e.a.l.s testified against him, high up the chain of command, people did not want the president to intervene because they believed military justice has been served. he's calling the united states military the deep state. >> this is the last institution that had been untouched, and now it has been cursed with trump's toxic, toxic waste. he is the ultimate coward.

i love the way he gets up there talking about the warriors. this is mr. foot bunion. this is the guy that if he was ever out in a war, remember the movie in platoon where one of the guy put dead bodies on top of him to hide himself, you know he would be the ultimate coward in the way he tries to wrap himself in the warrior mentality and the ultimate thing he's done is quite opposite. he has besmirched the military. what a cowardly, cowardly weak, soulless man. >> we have the reporting from yesterday that now the president of the united states wants to use these three military men who he pardoned as political props. okay, i got you out of jail. i need you on the campaign trail in 2020. i need you doing events for me. this is all part of his own re-election campaign. >> he did not do this because he truly believed in these men and thought they should be pardoned. i don't believe that.

i don't agree with his decision, but i don't think he acted out of caring for them. he cares about himself. not only is he a coward, but what david was saying about the command and the s.e.a.l.s, it's everything donald trump doesn't have. he has no discipline. he doesn't believe in being held accountab accountable. he doesn't understand what it is to command and to lead people. this is really -- if you thought we couldn't go any lower, i think we just did. >> and karine as david writes in his column, this is another case in secretary esper the defense secretary where someone at the top of the department, we can consider attorney general barr, secretary of state pompeo, stepped in to please the president and not to take care of his ranks. >> i really hope these folks understand that loyalty is a one-way street with donald trump. he does not give it back, and it is -- you know, it is a dangerous, dangerous road that they are going down. i mean, like donny says, and i agree with him on this one, just look at michael cohen and where

he is. and look, another thing, willie, you look at that rally yesterday. you have the commander in chief, the president of the united states standing behind the presidential seal, you know, something that is revered and incredibly important, and he is spouting out lies, conspiracy the theory. he's vulgar, and it is incredibly disappointing. we cannot be numb to that. we cannot be numb to that because he could not put together, he couldn't put together a complete sentence without lying, and this is the lowest of the low. this is where we are with this president. >> president of the united states has now placed the united states military into the deep state. coming up on "morning joe," the time line of the ukraine scan d scandal is beginning to take shape. it could impact white house and republicans' defense in the probe. we're learning president trump knew about the whistle-blower complaint before the white house lifted the freeze on ukraine aid. peter baker of the "new york

times" joins us with that new reporting. plus, president trump appears to be distancing himself from his personal attorney rudy giuliani. in a new interview trump is denying he ever directed giuliani to go to ukraine on his behalf, despite all the evidence to the contrary. "morning joe" will be right back. " will be right back if your gums bleed when you brush, you may have gingivitis. and the clock could be ticking towards bad breath, receding gums, and possibly... tooth loss. help turn back the clock on gingivitis with parodontax. leave bleeding gums behind. parodontax. ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪♪ we go the extra mile to bring your holidays home.

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they said he went into the hospital, and it's true. i didn't wear a tie. why would i wear a tie if the first thing they do is say take off your shirt, sir, and show us that gorgeous chest? we've never seen a chest quite like it. but they said he wasn't wearing a tie. this is the sign of a massive heart attack. >> no one said that. that was president trump mocking the press amid questions about his health after that unscheduled visit to walter reed medical center earlier this month. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, november 27th. still with us we've got donny deutsch, former treasury official steve ratner, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius, and senior adviser at moveon.org and an msnbc contributor karine jean-pierre, and joining our conversation chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker, political writer for the "new york times" and msnbc

political analyst nick con fa so r ree and making her morning debut, liz mayer, a veteran communications strategist and online communications director for the rnc. are you just a crazy blondie fan? >> i am. i have been since i was a little girl. i love the fact that debbie harry was extremely tough and feminine. she wasn't somebody who was interested in being sort of a traditional female role. she was more interested in kicking her man's ass, which i thought was interesting, and i hope i didn't just get bleeped. >> no. you're good. >> i think she's fantastic, and i think everybody should read her autobiography to learn more about her. she's amazing. >> coming in real hot. >> you don't mind if i leave now, do you? >> all right, so let's talk. donny has a theory we're going to put out here. i think it's well argued. former vice president joe biden continues to lead the field in the latest national poll out

just this morning. according to the latest cnn ssrs poll of registered democratic voters, biden leads the way with 28% support. followed by bernie sanders at 17%, warren at 14%. she's down 5% since october and mayor pete buttigieg rounding out the top 4 at 11%. that is a similar lead for the one biden has for the latest national quinnipiac university poll we've been talking about this morning where the former vice president has a lead at 24%. he's up three points since last month. the story here, though, elizabeth warren's support has been cut in half in this poll, down 14 points since october. she now sits at 14% in third place. before we get to donny's theory, liz, as you look at that snapshot, what do you see? >> i think it seems like no matter what happens in debates and whether joe biden flubs things, he seems to dip down and come right back up. it's a little bit like what we saw with president trump when he

was candidate. there were locates ts of things would hurt him. he's a known quantity, there's high name i.d., i think a lot of democratic voters, are very comfortable with him, and they are very much not with a lot of the rest of the field. >> he has a massive lead among african-american voters, 43%. the next one down is 11%. the next candidate. karine, let's talk about elizabeth warren there. if you're working on her campaign, a little better news than that cnn poll. what are you thinking last night when that q poll comes out showing her support cut in half. it's one poll, it's a national poll, but also that same poll shows that support for medicare for all, which is at the center of her campaign is down as well. >> look, i would say like you said, it's one poll. we got to see where this takes us. i would be concerned with the medicare for all message, which has not been resonated, and she has to figure out how to do a better job explaining, and i think both candidates do, bernie

sanders and elizabeth warren because it's just not -- it's just not ticking for people. it's just not -- people are just not really understanding what this is or it scarce folks, and here's the thing, going into this 2020 primary, medicare for all was popular. not with just democrats and progressives, but also independents and republicans, and so the messaging has been the problem and really laying out what that is. but, she still is doing well in the early states. she still has, you know, she still is incredibly popular with that progressive base that she's leaning into, so i wouldn't worry too much, but i would have to tell them, we've got to figure out how we do this messaging right now because it could be problematic, even more problematic down the road. >> part of the problem may be that she did explain the plan. she put out a specific plan with the details in it and her support is eroding since then. >> i think it's always good for voters when politicians explain their plans and explain their

policies. the bad news for warren is that medicare for all is not popular. in the q poll, it's dropping. there's a great story in the "times" showing that people up and down the democratic party from president obama down to people working in labor are saying, look, this is a bad thing for us. we're not happy about it. we're worried about where it will take the country in our own health care, and i think the real thing happening here is it's not that popular of a policy, and it's dragging down the candidates who are embracing it. >> yeah, 36% in that poll. >> it's not a popular policy because it's not a good policy, and karine is right that it did poll well early on but people didn't understand it. as they got to understand it, that 160 million people were going to lose their private insurance, it's become less popular. she's backtracked slightly. it's not con vivincing. i think medicare for all is a lead weight around her ankles.

>> and even if they do, let's be honest, most people when they heard medicare for all, they were thinking medicare for all who want it, which is much more what you've heard out of biden and buttigieg. in addition to the fact that the plan itself is unpopular, because yes you would have people who do like their insurance and they do exist and a lot of them are union members who are people you need to win a democratic primary, you also have the fact that by shifting her plan, setting aside the point that you make about whether it's a good plan, whether it's a bad plan. it's flip-floppery it's more massachusetts politicians doing flip-flopping and god knows we're used to seeing that whether it's with john kerry or mitt romney and she's another one. >> remember that first debate in miami several months ago and everybody raised their hand medicare for all and slowly walked it back. senator kamala harris said i went out and listened to people, and it turns out they don't want this. she changed her plan as well and came back to a place of medicare for all who want it.

>> medicare for all allows donald trump to use the dreaded s word, this is what i keep saying, that bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are not electable. if they can be branded, fair or unfair, a socialist, that is a word that the majority of americans not only don't like, they think is un-american. the guy we're not talking about here is mike bloomberg. >> before you launch in, quick disclaimer, steve ratner close friends with mayor bloomberg and manages his money. do i have that correct? >> you have that correct. >> we have that out of the way. >> i called pete buttigieg early on, i called he's going to win iowa. i'm still long pete buttigieg, but what bloomberg has is two things that i think are very, very strong. the first one what i call the media self-fulfilling prophesies of economies of scales. what got donald trump elected, he started off at 0, 1%, and automatically every night cn nsn was giving him an hour of coverage as far as doing his rallies, and he would go from 1 to 3%. mike bloomberg with his 50

billion, i spent my entire life buying media and going up against people who were buying more media there, is a reality that if you spend enough money, you're going to move the needle. now 50 billion, he could spend 1/10 of that and that would be his interest for the year, and that's five times what donald trump will be spending. and what's going to happen is you're going to start to see his numbers move: and the other thing he's got, he is the anti-trump, he is the ultimate anti-trump, pure competency, uncharismatic, boring, safe, get the job done. i think we're going to be hearing a lot. it is not beyond the realm that he will be the democratic nominee. people looking at what the world looks like today, obviously stop and frisk, he's got a big problem with african-americans as does pete buttigieg, steve, you and i as new yorkers know that this guy is a beast. >> peter baker, actually, if you look at that q poll we were just

discussing, mike bloomberg just got in the race a couple of days ago. he's already at 3%, tied with amy klobuchar and kamala harris in that national poll. >> yeah, he is. look, i guess i'm not as, you know, bullish, i suppose to use the right phrase. i think that, you know, i don't see what his constituency is honestly. i see the market for, you know, new york billionaires has already been filled, and i think that what part of the party is he appealing to? the part of the party that wants a republican, that was once an independent, that gave money to, you know, george w. bush. he's got a lot of progressives who don't like him. his actions obviously on gun control would appeal presumably to the liberal base and other issues like that, but i don't see the crying demand for him. i think within the elites there is a dissatisfaction with the field, but look at the polls. the polls say they actually are kind of satisfied with the candidates that they have, and they're fairly committed to

them. you know, he's going to go up against joe biden for some of that part of the party. what does he offer that joe biden doesn't? similar age range, similar demographic. what's the difference? money is the difference, and i think that can turn off voters as well as it can be a, you know, accelerant for his campaign. >> i'm not suggesting he's the nominee. i'm just saying he just got into the race and based on the money he spent, he's already polling with candidates who are well-known senators who have been in it for months and months. >> i want to jump on your word demand. what money does is it creates demand. right now that 3% is based on very little knowledge base. he's got an incredible story to tell, and with dollars, i did this for a living, you create demand. so let's just watch that. >> can i just jump in? i want to push back on that a little bit. >> this is pushback wednesday. you are joining the club. >> i'm going to push back a little bit on that. i'm not sure that you're wrong, but i do think this is going to be an interesting test case. i work the other side of media.

i work earned media and do a lot of opposition research, have had e-mails from me from time to time, one of my questions is this is going to be a good test to see if that formula still holds true because i think traditionally that has been true, but we have started to see, you know, when you look at trump, i think tv time correlates very strongly with electoral outkcomes but he didnt spend that much on advertising. this was all organic. >> i'm not sure that earned media that's organic that's impressions exactly corresponds and equates to bought and paid media. so we'll have to see. that said, i will also say the other night when we were sitting at dinner eating thai food watching our local news in stanford, connecticut, we saw four mike bloomberg commercials that were pretty damn good commercial. i think the better point there is that he has an interesting

life story. the question is telling that, whether that happens in big rally format, whether that happens in advertising format, that i think is actually the key and we'll see if it sells. >> back to peter baker's point, all good points, but it is also true that a substantial majority of the democratic party identifies themselves as moderates or at least not liberals and wants somebody who aligns with them. this gets back a ril blittle bi the medicare for all conversation. the voters are going to have to decide is do we want to win this election against trump or do we want to be ideologically pure, and nobody's going to say -- i will freely acknowledge that mike bloomberg has taken positions that are count ert to the democratic party ort dock psy, but i also believe in his heart he is a democrat, and i believe there's a chance that the democratic party primary voters will say we want to win this election. we don't see anyone else out there who has a greater chance

to beat president trump. >> joe biden is that person for a lot of people, that moderate, that person they think can beat donald trump. >> i think a biden follows a necessary condition for a bloomberg rise. i will say if you count all the money spent by everybody, everybody in these campaigns, it's around 6, $7 billion. this guy could spend that much just on his campaign. >> exactly. >> and does have some problems in the political environment, look on climate, which is an important issue in the primary, on gun control he is a guy that does have a story that he can tell about things he's won and battles he's fought and substance he has achieved on the climate stage, especially from the urban level from cities and mayors. so i think he has something to work with, and i'm curious to see how it goes. >> there's another thing he's also got, the emotional coming off of trump's chaos, i think people want safety, and they

don't want a new revolution, and the more his story is told, you feel comfortable with his hand at the wheel. i'm going to go back to that word competency. no matter how you spell it, whether it's building a $50 billion business from scratch, whether it is donating billions of dollars to charity for left wing causes for gun control, for climate change, and his boringness actually works in his favor. it's going to be interesting to watch. it is certainly -- >> i'll take issue with the boringness. >> unthreateningness for lack of a better word. the lack of charisma, maybe we could use a little non-charisma for a little while. >> i think there is certainly a market out there for somebody who is simply perceived as being able to do the job. >> competence. >> but i think just being able to do the job, sounds like a higher hurdle at this point. i think there are people in the race who can satisfy that. the question is do people think

bloomberg can satisfy it better and i don't know the answer to that right now. >> david ignatius, it's a long shot that mayor michael bloomberg will be the nominee, but what's your take on his candidacy? >> i think he is trying to fill a perceived void, the kind of moderate candidate. that assumes that biden is just going to completely fizzle out as a candidate. the polls don't show that. we all as commentators watched by this performance in the debates and go jeez, i wonder if he's still got his fastball, but that doesn't seem to be the perception of people in polls. i was with a leading democratic party strategist over the weekend, and he said, look, folks, if biden is the nominee, democrats will win the white house over trump. we will win the senate, and we will win house. and we'll win x number of

governships. this confidence that biden is seen out in the country as a sensible, likable standard be bearbea bearer for the party. bloomberg i think is going to make the race more interesting. whether he's a dull figure, it's going to be interesting with the new money and energy he'll bring to it. he won't go anywhere as nick said earlier, unless biden fuzz -- fizzles out, and then there's space. it can be filled by buttigieg, by bloomberg. as nick said, the necessary condition biden's fall. >> for all the hand wringing about joe biden, through a performance a lot of people perceived in the debate as not being strong. his numbers are up. he's at the top of the national polls. he's up 43 to 11 among african-american voters. he's at 43% support.

the next on the list is bernie sanders at 11%. he's still a strong front runner who fills that moderate lane. when you talk to mayor bloomberg, what's his way around that? what's his lane in this race? >> well, i'd rather not do it from that perspective. or from my perspective. i like joe biden. i think those national polls are a little misleading. when you start to look at iowa and new hampshire polls, you look at a different picture where he's running fourth in both states. the problem he's going to have is his fund-raising has not been robust has nick knows well. he's going to get to iowa, new hampshire, and if he doesn't, you know, you hathe history, yo to finish first or second in one or both of them. then you go to nevada and south carolina and super tuesday, where's the money, where's the sizzle, and where's the momentum. that's what i think he's up against at the moment. i withish h him well. >> you think mayor bloomberg's strategy of waiting until steup

tuesday. >> right or wrong for better or worse, mike made his decision when going into those early states wasn't possible. wasn't a question of here's our strategy, it was a question of the timing drove the strategy. >> this also might be about delegate aggregation and blocking out some of the people who are perceived as being more socialist. i would just say while i am generally a big believer that you can't just win the thing by waiting until south carolina or nevada, the fact is joe biden does have a lot of union support and he has a lot of african-american support, so he might actually be the one guy who can do that. nevada, if you've got that union support you're in a position to win that, and that's the most important factor in winning nevada. >> but remember that super tuesday is three days after south carolina, so you can get your momentum back, but then you've got to raise and spend an unbelievable amount of money in three days. >> let's turn to some new details in the impeachment

inquiry concerning the timing of the whistle-blower complaint and when military aid for ukraine was unfrozen. two people familiar with the matter tell the "new york times" this morning president trump already knew about the complaint, but ultimately would spark the impeachment probe before he released the military aid. lawyers from the white house counsel's office briefed the president about the complaint in late august, explaining they were trying to determine whether they were legally required to give it to congress. as the "times" points out, this new revelation could shed light on president trump's thinking at two critical points under scrutiny in the impeachment inquiry. specifically his decision to release the aid in early september and his denial to eu ambassador gordon sondland that there was no quid pro quo. the "times" notes it's unclear how much detail white house lawyers gave president trump about the whistle-blower complaint. the white house declined to comment. peter baker, this piece in your newspaper kind of underfwirgird

lot of the testimony we heard about timing here and why president trump released the aid, effectively because he knew he was sort of caught in the act. what new light does this shed, and what's the significance of the new story here? >> yeah, i think that's exactly right. one of the things you heard republicans say again and again during last week's hearings was that there was no crime here because, in fact, the president did release the money and there was no investigation or commitment to investigation by the ukrainians. therefore, what's the problem, and the answer is as you just said, he only released the aid under pressure from congress and under the pressure of knowing that the whistle-blower complaint was out there, which sort of gives you different light to the motivation of what's going on. he didn't simply say you're right, the aid is no problem, let's let it go. it still boggles the mind why he did hold back the aid for any other reasons. he keeps looking out for other motivations. he says look, i didn't want europe not to pay. well, in fact europe pays more than the united states has. he says he's concerned about corruption in ukraine, but

there's no evidence that he ever had any concern about any corruption that didn't involve the word democrat in it. and so i think that, you know, these excuses and reasons and defenses, you know, are challenged by reports like this. another one, of course, is the testimony of mark sandy, the omb, the budget office official who said two of his colleagues resigned in recent months who had expressed frustrations about this. we don't know for a fact whether that was the driving cause of their resignations but it certainly adds more to the story. >> nick, i mean, the must be was -- money was released on september 11th. we sort of had a sense that the president released the aid because he knew he had been caught by the whistle-blower. this sets the clock back a couple of weeks sooner. >> absolutely. and especially that call to gordon sondland where he says no quid pro quo. that now feels like a cya call. >> where'd that term come from? >> exactly. he knew where it was coming and going more importantly. so what's happening here, i think, is that, you know, at

each stage the president and his party tried to erect a defense here. what's remarkable about these impeachment proceedings and his testimony is each of his defenses has been undermined by facts and direct testimony, and now we have the further information that as the white house was scrounging around for a rationale, two people quit partially potentially in protest, which shows you it was not a small thing. >> so liz, let's just stop and suggest after the last couple of weeks we know what happened here, right? we've seen the story. we've heard the testimony. what does it mean now to a republican sitting in the house and then eventually a republican sitting in the senate? we've seen no evidence that any of them have even signaled or hinted that they're going to move off the president in supporting him. so where does this thing go? >> well, so i think, first of all, ever since the white house released the transcript, it's been pretty clear what's going on. everybody seems to have glossed over the key use of the word

with regard to favor. when i read that i was like i'm sorry, that's quid pro quo. it's pretty obvious. the no quid pro quo to sondland that wasn't anything that was x exculpato exculpatory. i think for house republicans and senate republicans it's very different. a lot of the house republicans that are leftover are in places that are not necessarily swing districts. they're not necessarily going to be hurt by this. they're going to be hurt more by deviating from the president. that said i always say that the best rule in politics, is you better be who you are, and you better be authentic because people can smell a rat, and that's one of the reasons that congress has consistently low approval ratings. i would be cognizant of that if i were them. when you're looking at the senate it's a different picture, particularly i would point out a couple of things. susan collins, when she's been talking about this, she certainly doesn't sound like she's lining up with the president on it right now, which is not surprising because she did not vote for him in 2016. she wrote in paul ryan. if you look at poll ing out of

colorado. you've got a bad situation there in you're cory gardner. if you look at the voting pool as a whole, overwhelmingly that's not where voters are. if you're somebody like cory gardner, i think you have a very different political calculus on your hands to what house republicans do. there are people i have heard who have said that they think it is possible that you could actually end up getting about as many senate republicans actually supporting removal from office as you get house republicans ultimately voting for impeachment. that could mean zero or that could mean like 20. i don't know. in practice it depends a lot. i think also on what happens with john bolton. >> it's a long way. >> i think it's a long way, but i think also you look at this decision in the mcgahn case and you look at what the implications could be for bolton if he is ultimately subpoenaed successfully and he does testify. if what he has to say is really damning, john bolton is the one guy who definitely can move

republicans. >> two weeks of sondland and the numbers actually got weaker, so i wish -- i hope, i dream. >> john bolton isn't sondland. >> it's still the same story. >> republican voters don't know who sondland is, and sondland does not -- >> it's the same story. >> that's irrelevant. sondland does not have the currency with any elected republican that john bolton does. he just doesn't. >> that is true, but oernn the other hand it's not clear bolton wants to testify. he wants his own decision, which means he's pushing it back even further tand i'm not sure we're going to see john bolton. >> i'm not sure we are either. that's my point, if we do see john bolton, you could actually see this significantly shift in a way you start seeing republicans stopping aligning with the president to the degree you do right now. >> peter baker last word to you on this, are there republicans going home for thanksgiving actually debating whether or not to support meecht impeachment o

their minds made up? >> in the senate they're being more restrained, more cautious, more withholding because they're going to be jurors, and they don't want to tip their hand if they don't have to. in the house you don't hear a lot of hand wringing, they don't like the situation. they're not happy about it. the debate going on among republicans is how to defend the president. what a lot of them would like to say, yeah, he did wrong. we don't approve of this conduct, but it's not going to be impeachable. we're heading into an election year, let the voters decide. the president won't let them. he's saying i did everything perfect. back in the clinton days, the president admitted -- eventually admitted he did something wrong so the democrats could say yeah, even he admits something he did was wrong, but we're not going to impeach him over it. this president won't let them do it. that puts republicans in a bind. >> you do have a lot of retiring republicans in the house. those guys don't have any reason to support him. >> liz, i know you're just here to promote bloondie's biography.

>> absolutely, and i expect my royalty payment from debbie harris to be in the mail. >> i'm sure it's on its way. a scathing article forces mayor pete buttigieg to answer for his past comments on race and the achievement gap. the reverend al sharpton and professor michael eric dyson join us for that conversation. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it - with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our members, that's what's right. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. usaa

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welcome back to "morning joe." with us the host of msnbc's reverend al sharpton and professor of sociology "new york times" contributing opinion writer and contributing editor of the new republic, michael eric dyson, the author of the

new book, "jay-z made in america," i can't wait to get in that conversation. we've got some other business to attend to first. mayor pete buttigieg is clarifying comments he made about african-american students in poor neighborhoods before he was elected mayor. take a look. >> the kids need to see evidence that education's going to work for them. there are a lot of kids, especially the lower income minority neighborhoods who literally just haven't seen it work. there isn't somebody they know personally who testifies to the value of education. >> buttigieg's comment in that video, which began trending yesterday online received backlash including from the roots, michael hair yet who denounced the comments in an op-ed entitled pete buttigieg is a lying mf. he argued that the presidential candidate was choosing to ignore the systemic racism that contributes to that achievement gap. mayor buttigieg called harriet

to speak about the piece. during the 20 minute conversation he explained why he was offend and that the two did find common ground. buttigieg spoke about his comments and that conversation during an iowa town hall yesterday. >> somebody who let's say strongly disapproved of some comments that i had made years ago that somebody had dug up. and so you know, sometimes we forget, i think especially as we're consuming media, that this is a conversation among human beings, and so i realize that and thankfully he was amenable to that. we had a conversation. i thought it was a very healthy conversation. and yes, he is right when he said my opinion, when he says that we've got to look at the structural factors that drive different racial outcomes in our country. >> so professor dyson, let me start with you. i want to dig into what the mayor said originally and why that was a problem for a lot of

people and you help us explain that, but also just take a step back and can we just be grateful that for once somebody picked up not phone a-- the phone and hada conversation with someone. >> again, there are various interpretations of wokeness, and most of which i stand opposed to, that demonize and stigmatize millennials and young people who are brought to the floor of consciousness that needs to be had. the impulse to say if i disagree with you, you're disposable, you can have a 30-year history of doing things with which i agree, but the one thing, you're done, you're gone, you're out. that is destructive. that imitates the forces of oppression that people seek to oppose. here i'm glad that mayor buttigieg picked up the phone, says something about him. lets be honest, mr. harriet, one of the most gifted writers trat the root was right in talking about the necessity to focus on structural issues, right? it's not simply an individual

choice not to be educated. it's the factors that keep them from being educated. however there has been soes logical analysis pete buttigieg has been be reflecting which is to say there was an out migration of stable middle class people once desegregation happened and black people could move to suburbs and therefore leave behind, there's a soes logical argument of people who are vulnerable tomorrow paradigms and leadership. you can still disagree with it, and i think the tone of the disagreements should be tempered and to be honest, to have open dialogue and conversation. pete buttigieg did so. he resolved an issue in a way that is something that should become more and more the case, as opposed to less likely the case, and at the end of the day, let's be honest, and rev can say this because he was there, even with the crime bill, even with certain indices of african-american thought, unlike me, most black people are very

culturally conservative or a larger number than we think, even if they're morally or politically progressive. i think we have to take into account, that bepete buttigieg, there might be some natural affinities if he's sensitive to the issue. >> rev, let's go back to the initial comment, 2011 because i guarantee a lot of people just watched that tape and didn't know what was wrong with what he said. what is the problem with his original comment if you see one there? >> what was wrong -- and i think where harriet was right who is a gifted writer at the root, is that he stereotyped all blacks as being one type of social background, social setting. that was wrong because you have blacks that grow up middle class with role models, with a stable family. you have those that don't and he acted like all minorities just didn't have role models and that was the problem. it was this stereotypical i see blacks as a monolith.

that is wrong, that is in fact, prejudging, which is basically bigamy. the good part about it is i think buttigieg has evolved. since i first met him a year ago, he has sought to evolve. does that mean i endorse him? no, but it does mean you see a growing process, and agree with dr. dyson, enough where he picked up the phone and called harriet. i give harriet credit that he answered the phone. you have some people who are too woke who won't talk to you. i think both sides are wrong. i think even among the progressives and i said on the show day before yesterday, we've had problems on both sides in the black community. you have a lot of people on the left that have stereotypes that if you're not a millennial and our interpretation of woke, you are insignificant. what most of the black community are in different areas.

the black church used to dominate 90% of the black community, maybe 70% now, but it's still the largest gathering place for black people including young blacks go to black church more than they go to a lot of the other places that people think. so all of this monolith is biased whether you're progressive or right. blacks, let me give you a news flash. blacks are just as diversified as everybody else in terms of their behavior and outlooks on life as well as i agree with mr. dyson, dr. dyson, georgetown university, author of jay-z. i'm trying to help a brother out. i agree with him, and that is that, hey, we all are a lot more conservative in some of our private tastes in terms of our values and may be a lot more progressive when it comes to race and economic issues. so don't get confused. >> dr. dyson, let's talk about mayor pete buttigieg and

african-american voters. in the context of everything you both have just said, another poll out yesterday, quinnipiac poll shows vjoe biden at 43% among african-americans, elizabeth warren at 11% to get to number two, pete buttigieg is polling at about 4%. >> right. >> what is the problem as you see it with his relationship to african-american voters? >> well, probably what was indicative there of his earlier standpoint. he didn't have much experience. he doesn't have much knowledge. and he hasn't paid attention to the degree to which his policies, though well intending have had dell tears you effect on on disparate populations. you don't mean for your politics and your public policy to have a bad effect, but you're not calculating the degree to which they may unintentionally hurt and harm certain communities. he hasn't taken that into consideration. i think as he grows and understands and shows that he's willing to be self-critical, that's important, but you know

the discourse around pete buttigieg has been that, you know, p blablack people are mor homophobic and stuff. it is true we do go to church and the evangelical piety of many african-american churches has suggested we love the sinner and hate the sin. that's been problematic as well. i've fought in churches against that kind of homophobia but it is not more endemic to black people than others. i've also tried to tell people in the same way james baldwin said in the 60s that the problem some black people had with some jewish people, it's not because they were jewish, it's because they were white. pete buttigieg, it's not his homosexu homosexuality, it's not his gay identity, although we call out homophobia wherever it is. one of the reasons i think black people are highly sensitive to sexual difference is our, quote,

normal heterosexuality was rendered as queer in an american culture that looked at us as strange anyway. we're like don't rock the boat anymore by coming with different sexuality. keep that in the closet. when you put that together and look at the degree to which pete buttigieg has not been in the mainstream about arguments of civil rights in america, he's at a disadvantage. if he's willing to do what he just showed there, reach out, not be defensive. he could have been defensive and said forget that. the two came together, were able to talk. that provides an opening for the possibility that those who disagree strongly can at least come to some terms. >> it's also a reminder, i think we're so used to the idea that candidates emerge from their first event fully formed as packages and don't change, that we forget that the purpose of the campaign is these conversations. >> right. >> and i'm curious, rev, if in fact, he does well, pete, in the

first two contests in iowa and ha new hampshire, what would be the opening for him in south carolina? is there a message from those first two states that helps him? >> first message if he does well in the first two states is he's electable and what is driving a lot of black voters is anyone that can beat donald trump, that's one. i think secondly that he has tried to in many ways educate himself and immerse himself with learning how to deal with a broader base of americans. clearly when i first -- i took him to lunch at sylvias, that's all he wanted. teach me, let me know, rather than the arrogance of people that come in a paternalistic way saying i know how to speak for you better than you know how to speak for yourself. he was not like that, so i think that gets through, and i think in many ways it's an inviting kind of relationship. but let's face it, if we're

going to give michael bloomberg 13 years to get to stop and frisk is not right, i mean, what's the time clock we're going to give pete buttigieg. it took michael bloomberg with billions of dollars 13 years to say it. even i got all the data in the world, you know what? maybe it's wrong. so you at least got to give buttigieg a year. >> and just at the bottom how refreshing that two people stopped, picked up the phone, and talked to each other. it's a shame we have to point that out as extraordinary and exceptional, but it is these days. professor, we need an entire segment for this, so wii going to take a break and talk about it in its fullness. professor dyson, his new book on jay-z and the billionaire mow bu -- mogul's influence on everything from sports and yes to politics. we'll be back in a moment. ♪

i don't have any ill will towards him, but his conversation is divisive, and that's not an evolved soul to me, so he cannot be my

president. he cannot be our president. once you divide us, you weaken us. we're stronger together. >> that was jay-z on then candidate donald trump during hillary clinton's get out the vote rally days before the 2016 election. professor michael eric dyson is out with a new book jay-z made in america, which explores his life and 30-year career in music. you've been teaching a class on jay-z for a long time. why is he worthy of an entire class for you? >> he's an american original. he's an emmer sonian figure. he talked about it in extraordinary terms. he's an extraordinary thinkinger. he has deep thoughts besides the stuff about materialism and cars. he's wedging in serious issues of social conscience. crack was anthrax back then,

back when police was al qaeda to black men, wow, so he's talking about 9/11. he's talking about terror. he's speaking about police brutality and relationships between blacks and law enforcement. so he does that kind of stuff in the midst of all the gleeful back nail ya that he invokes in his lyrics, and he's a guy who is just a master. he doesn't write it down. if he wrote that stuff down it would be amazing. he's homer in a post modern site. he can read and write, of course, but he doesn't write it down. he composes it in his mind, and he deals with issues that are salient to people. that's why, and we talk about his entrepreneur exploits and his quest to make certain that the issues that were relevant to him as a young man as he is now a mature man get airing. that they get airing and that he bridges the gap between generations. i think that's why he continues to be such a remarkable -- >> if you ever watched, donny, how he works, it's one of the most extraordinary things i've

ever seen anyone do, which is to sit in the back of a studio by himself, sitting on a chair and just talk. and then he goes, okay, i'm ready. he's not writing my of that stuff down. what do you think it is about him that so broke through coming from projects in brooklyn, because there are a lot of guys in the late '80s, early '90s who didn't go as commercially successful as he did while maintaining the issues you're talking about, speaking out on issues that concerned his community? what was it about him that blew up so big? >> that's a great question, and i think the answer, and i try to get it in this book, is it's americana. he understands and the people who understand his narrative understand that this is about what america is. america begins with a great crime. america begins with nefarious intentions being opposed and america trying to grasp ahold of something that's important. he's a hustler, he's selling crack on the street, and he transformed that into american -- he goats from the streets to the suites.

he transforms that effort of striving. americans can identify with that, going from the bottom to the top and arriving there through hard work and labor and your rhetorical genius, that's something all americans can identify with. >> there's a humbleness to him. i was interviewing bill gates and jay-z followed him, and he comes on the stage, and he says can you believe they're listening to bill gates and now they're listening to me. so this incredible humbleness and awareness of where he's been and where he's come. >> that self-awareness. i've known jay-z since the beginning of his career, and both of us are from brooklyn, 15, 16 years apart, and he's never lost his authenticity, and he has the unique ability to talk to america and remain himself, and i think a lot of people that came out of the same music did not have the ability to communicate beyond certain boundaries. he did. but then some of them went beyond the boundaries and lost themselves. he didn't. i think he's been able to navigate, bring the issues out,

critiques. he is in his music, praised me and jabbed at me. people ask me, do you get angry if he takes a shot at you? absolutely not. that's what brooklyn's all about. in my career, i will say this for the record, willie, i have had 99 problems. jay-z is not one of them. >> you got it in, rev. you got it in. [ laughter ] >> there is so much to cover about jay-z, so i want to know like how did you condense it into one booklet? what are your big three take aways? >> that's great. the first one is his hustling, i talk about his transformation from street hustler to american businessman, and you know the historian walter mcdougal says the central says it's hustling. the second is pretolitical genu. they're saying they spin it.

i'm like you should buy it. that's good business. thirdly, his political acumen. this man understands slavery, jim crow, immigration, equality. and leading a fight for criminal justice reform. even in the nfl the controversy with the offing what jay z has understood. like reverend al sharpton, first, you stand outside an you protest. then when you get it right you say this is how you do it then you negotiate a pact and a piece. that's what jay z has done. >> brooklyn guys know how to work outside and inside. we just know how to do that. >> i'm going to ask you quickly about his work with the nfl. he's taken heat from that sitting in the room with roger goodell. vis-a-vis colin kaepernick. how does he respond? >> look, jay z has always played

chess not checkers. he understands that. we talk about pete buttigieg why is it when a black man goes in the room with a white man, you assume the white man is beating him. jay z has done something that hasn't didn't done in three years, give colin kaepernick a presence. it edged them, cajoled them. >> i will say this quickly, he also understands that the objective was dealing with criminal justice, police brutality. not colin kaepernick. what made kaepernick relevant is that he took a knee on a movement that all of us were already in and continued. so people get caught up on just the personality. jay z said let's deal with the issue and deal with the criminal justice aspect which he brought to the nfl. muhammad ali was a symbol, but we still wanted to stop the vietnam war. people are narrowing this down

to personality than the purpose. >> there are great football players out there doing great things. the problem is, with culture, some of mr. kaepernick's compatriots have called names to others. if the issue is broader than any of us, persona cannot absolve politics. in that case, jay z is tapping into again, let's not deal with who are we are as individuals. >> he's selling out stadiums and doing his thing. >> it's a great book. it is a great american story as he says from marcy to madison square. jay z, great to see you. still ahead, we've been having a conversation on race in america, one of the next guests explores what it is like to be a parent in a persistently tough world.

"morning joe" is coming right back. he could've just been the middle class kid who made good. but mike bloomberg became the guy who did good. after building a business that created thousands of jobs he took charge of a city still reeling from 9/11 a three-term mayor who helped bring it back from the ashes bringing jobs and thousands of affordable housing units with it. after witnessing the terrible toll of gun violence...

he helped create a movement to protect families across america. and stood up to the coal lobby and this administration to protect this planet from climate change. and now, he's taking on... him. to rebuild a country and restore faith in the dream that defines us. where the wealthy will pay more in taxes and the middle class get their fair share. everyone without health insurance can get it and everyone who likes theirs keep it. and where jobs won't just help you get by, but get ahead. and on all those things mike blomberg intends to make good. jobs creator. leader. problem solver. mike bloomberg for president. i'm mike bloomberg and i approve this message. get the perfectly grilled flavors of an outdoor grill indoors,

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in keeping with that tradition today, i will issue a pardon to a pair of very handsome birds butter and his alternate bread. that's true. look at you. thankfully, bread and butter have been specially raised by the jacksons to remain claum under any conditi calm under any condition. which is very important because they've received subpoenas to appear in adam schiff's basement on thursday. >> president trump joking about the impeachment inquiry. during the political investigations he sought and u.s. military aid to ukraine. plus, mayor pete buttigieg up, elizabeth warren down, in a new poll of the democratic primary field. we'll have those new numbers as

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but now we're going to have to do a little work on thanksgiving. people have different ideas why it shouldn't be called thanksgiving. but everybody in this room, i know, loves the name thanksgiving, and we're not changing it. >> that's the president of the united states last night at a rally in florida talking about the alleged war on thanksgiving. why you ask? there was a segment yesterday on fox news about the war on thanksgiving. good morning, welcome into "morning joe." it's wednesday, november 27th, joe and mika have the morning off, danny deutsche is here, susan del percio, and steve radner, an msnbc contributor careen jolkerr. former vice president joe biden hanging on to the lead 24%.

up four points since last month. the story of the poll is that elizabeth warren's support has been cut in half in just a month. down 14 points since october. she now sits in third place within the margin of error at 14%. biden leads the field in support of women voters and those over 65 years old. baggy leads in white voters with no college degree. donny, let's keep that up for a second. elizabeth warren, the original poll, down 14 points, at 28 a month ago. down to 14 right now. why? because if you look inside this poll, support for medicare for all plummeting down to 36% support. >> yeah, this country you can't tell 160 million people you are going to take something away from them. and the electricability thing, i've taken some heat. i don't think she's electable and will get trounced with trump. and her high school principal

demeanor this is not a gender thing this is kind of a tone and manner thing, i think the american public, the more they say, the more they're going, hmm, this is not the answer. >> actually, she was doing well on the campaign trail. it's when she put forth a policy that they say, whoa, i don't want 160 million people to lose their health insurance. >> i would disagree. i think she's run a formidable campaign. the 70,000 selfies. she's a natural. it's interesting for someone who was in a classroom until 11 years ago to figure out to perform so well. i do think it's one of your first two points. the medicare for all thing is resonating. there was a story in the "times" today about candidates in the heartland who are basically saying you can't be for this. and her electability as well. this is one poll showing a very dramatic change. >> but it can also be a timing thing with elizabeth warren that she may have peaked a little too

early. she does have really good grounding, as steve said. and i agree with donny on the medicare for all certainly hurt her. but that all happened at roughly the same time and also at the same time where the hunter biden thing exploded. biden was getting all of the attention. in the debate before the last one, she got crushed on that stage. was taking fire from everybody. i think it could have been a timing thing. >> i want to look at electability numbers. a lot of the audience shaking their heads at home, i do think there's an electability issue there. >> she was surging until she officially put out the poll for medicare for all. joe biden, after another perceived performance at a debate, holding on, yes, is this a national poll, no, it's not a referendum, we know. but he's holding steady at the top there? >> yeah, he's holding steady.

the name i.d., people know joe biden. they like joe biden. you have older african-americans who are really holding those numbers pretty steady for him. so it's not surprising we've been seeing this for the several months, even with the gaffs and the campaigns. i've got to go back to what donny said. donny, the likability thing, it's so problem mat touk hear problematic because it's expected to female candidates. >> oh! >> it is. i have not heard that with the male candidates, we don't hear that. >> well, that's very -- >> well, i have to make sure that i flag that and disagree with you on that one. also electability, look, elizabeth warren, head to head, you see elizabeth warren, biden and kamala harris and others beating donald trump. i know it's a head to head and

it's early. but we have to be findful how we talk about this. we've got to be careful. here's what i'll say about the polling. this is one poll. there's going to be many, many polls. we're still two months away from the first person to cast their vote. and it's going to be a wild ride from now until caucus day, iowa, which will be the first time that voters get to go out there and speak their mind sand caucus for their candidate. if we go back to 2008, hillary clinton up by 20 points. rudy giuliani was up by 13 points this time. so, it is still going to be a very wild ride. i always want to say ignore the polls for the moment and we'll see where we are when we get closer. >> donny, you're on an island this morning. >> yeah. quickly, one of the polls, i saw a poll that elizabeth warren would beat donald trump in texas which means we should not be listening to polls. >> i agree, we shouldn't be

listening to polls but we should be mindful how we talk about it. when we talk about women candidates likability comes up all the time, all the time. >> when i say somebody is not likable, i'm not going gender. i think bernie sanders is even less likable. but there's a certain strideness to both of them i don't know if america wants to invite them into their living rooms for four years every night. >> elizabeth warren has proven she's very likable. medicare for all has been a bump in the road for her. i'm not going to be polianaish on it. and with people waiting to sake a selfie, that's what it means. >> you don't get 20,000 people into washington square park if you don't have some element of likability. >> i stand there. >> as a matter of fact -- >> often wrong, never --

>> #too -- they call it. there have been a number of developments in the impeachment investigation with president trump in a campaign rally in the swing state of florida last night, the president once again denied that the political investigations he sought from ukraine were tried to military aid despites weeks and weeks of testimony to the contrary. documents show that the white house initiated the move to freeze the aid on the same day of the july 25th phone call with the president of ukraine. at the same time, two sources telling "the new york times" this morning that the president was aware of the whistle-blower complaint when he released the aid. also notable, the president is now putting some distance between himself and his personal attorney rudy giuliani. here's president trump talking to bill o'reilly. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy. but rudy -- i don't even know --

i knew he was going to go to ukraine but i think he cancelled the trip but, you know, rudy has other clients other than me. i'm one -- >> so you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no, no but you have to understand rudy is a great corruption fighter. he felt personally insulted by what happened during my campaign. because there were a lot of bad things happening. >> giuliani's your personal lawyer. so you didn't direct him to go to ukraine or do anything or put the heat on? >> no, i didn't direct him. but he is a warrior. rudy's a warrior. rudy went, he possibly -- i think he's done work in ukraine for years. >> that does not, though, explain the july 25th phone call when the president repeatedly urged ukraine's president to work with rudy giuliani. it also doesn't square up with the testimony from ambassador gordon sondland at the impeachment that he and secretary perry and ambassador volker, quote, worked with rudy

giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the united states. let's bring in david ig ignatius. good morning. >> i think with what rudy was doing in ukraine and other places of the world are going to be the future of the next few weeks. there's a grand jury meeting in the western district of new york looking at rudy giuliani's associates. to what extent does rudy have a role in the investigations. mr. parnas and mr. fruman and several people who worked with them. this investigation is fascinating because each new tranche of testimony, each new set of documents basically takes the story further down the road

than we already understand. and undercuts the explanations that the white house has offered. i think it's really significant that we now know that the president would already have been aware of the whistle-blower complaint saying there was something wrong and troubling in this july 25 phone call, between president trump and president zelensky of ukraine. he already knew there was a complaint about it when he made that hist t histrionic statement from gordon sondland. i don't want an quid pro quo. such an odd statement but we know there was an investigation on precisely the issue i think undercuts some of the white house defense. it will now go into a phase where jerry nadler the house judiciary chairman will try to pull all of this together in some articles of impeachment, presumably.

whether jerry nadler will be as effective a communicator of information as adam schiff has been as the chairman of the house intelligence committee phase remains to be seen. still ahead on "morning joe," key new testimony released in the impeachment probe including from a career official at the white house who says he was replaced with a trump appointee, after raising alarms about the freeze on ukraine aid. but first, bill karins has a look at the thanksgiving forecast. how's it looking? >> not great, willie. we had storms in the pacific, a huge storm into california. 19 million. we're digging out in denver. minneapolis has a foot of snow overnight. roads are closed. and the west is getting nailed at higher elevations for the next day or so. the airports for chicago, detroit, cleveland, the ohio valley, we're seeing 91 million people impacted by the wind advisories could gust up to 60 miles per hour.

then moving into new york city, for thursday, the balloon forecast, remember, we need the winds to be under 34. right now, the gusts are forecast to be at 40 miles an hour so it does not look great that the big balloons are flying. as far as the airport, today, chicago o'hare, minneapolis, cleveland on there, too. minor delays in boston, new york, d.c., volume of late day showers, possibly getting more than that, maybe major delays. west coast, anyone traveling, sacramento, l.a. and san diego you're dealing with pretty harsh conditions out there. possibility of significant delays. so, good luck on your travels heading to your dhg zethanksgivt nation. here in new york city, the tree, scaffolding coming down in time. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ get. at liberty butchumal- cut. liberty biberty- cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance

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meanwhile a career official in the office of management and budget undercut the white house's defense for freezing security aid to ukraine during closed-door testimony. omb deputy associate director for national security mark sandy explained to impeachment investigators earlier this month that he received an email from the white house chief of staff mick mulvaney's office july 12th directing a ukraine hold on that aid. as of july 26th, a day after president trump's call with president zelensky sandy testified that the omb office did not know why the money was being withhold. sandy then raised legal concerns that the unexplained hold could violate from his higher up. michael duffy took the lead on approving omb funds for foreign aid. sandy testified that it was not until around september 9th, days before the money was released that he was told the reason for the initial halt was because of

president trump's desire to see other countries contribute more aid to ukraine. during that leadup time, sandy added two career officials in the omb office resigned over their, quote, frustrations surrounding the unknown reason for the aid holdup. steve, this is more testimony, this is more evidence that adam schiff has to work with. we didn't know about this specifically that mr. sandy said officials were resigning in protest of this holdup, unexplained holdup for a long time with aid to ukraine. >> well, we were talking this before the show. i think everything that comes out is of a piece. there are very few facts that contradict other facts. everything simply builds on what we already know and it's like building a house brick by brick. and at this point, i don't think the facts are in dispute and all of these things add color and paint to the picture. i would say hanging around washington for a long time, i've never heard of career officials resigning over something like

this. this is how people are chewing to obey the law. >> the evidence is in front of us, in front of congress. we've heard it from witness after witness. the question is will republicans break ranks and vote against the president. in that same poll, the quinnipiac race, they did polls about impeachment. the numbers show since october 23rd, before the public testimony, we saw support for president trump and impeached and removed from office has actually fallen. so it was at 48% in october. down to 45% now. within the marginch error, it's about the same number. the point is the public on this poll and others we've seen has not moved on this question despite all of the testimony. >> look, i think what we're seeing, though, is the democrats are doing a pretty good job in laying out a very clear case on impeachment. and i think the numbers are steady.

i think -- i do think, when you look at 50%, in the cnn poll and -- that came out yesterday. and when you look at the politico morning consult polling, i mean, those are historically high numbers. this time in watergate, we were nowhere near 50%. when you look at clinton's impeachment, his high mark was 29%. so we are at historical numbers. and, look, that "the new york times" reporting that we saw from last night you that guys have been talking about, it basically proved what democrats were saying last week during the hearing, is that the only reason trump released the aid is because he got caught. >> right. >> so, if you look at it in its totality, all of the excuse that trump and republicans are putting out. the conspiracy theorys that they're peddling, all of it, the lies, has now been debunked. so, they're going to have to make a serious, serious calculation here or thinking, right? which is are they going to hold up to their oath, or are they

going to follow donald trump? do they believe in the rule of law? or do they believe that the president of the united states is not above the law? i mean, these are really serious things that history is going to be watching for republicans. but i think the biggest number in the polling is that republican voters aren't moving. and i think that's why republicans are where they are. and we're just going to have to keep, i think, democrats are going to have to keep plugging along now that it's in the judiciary. coming up on "morning joe," a ground breaking new medical procedure is giving hope to veterans injured in war. "morning joe" is back in a moment. i'm your 70lb st. bernard puppy, and my lack of impulse control, is about to become your problem. ahh no, come on. i saw you eating poop earlier.

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♪ welcome back. this morning, we're getting a look at a brand-new procedure that's changing the lives of veteran amputees. the one of a kind clinical trial is helping patients do things they never thought possible. "morning joe" medical distributor dr. dave campbell shows us what could be the future of proth get sthetics. >> reporter: for retired army sergeant william santos, this

prosthetic arm is a dream come true. it's a procedure for quality of life. but the road to this wasn't easy. >> i was a combat engineer. our job was to do construction work, besides that, when we went to iraq, we were searching for explosives. >> reporter: that day you got injured what was happening? >> we were doing our regular route clearance that day. and stumbled into a barrier. we called it in. before we even checked, the driver went to the side and the explosive was there. >> reporter: the explosive completely severed william's left arm. >> first thing i thought about was my family. i didn't think about me. >> reporter: within days, william was sent to walter reed in bethesda, maryland. two weeks after i got here, they put a prosthesis on. you had to put a strap across your chest to bring that socket to the shoulder. standing like this, it was very

uncomfortable. plus, once you started sweating it would slip off. >> reporter: tell me about the mental challenges that started from the instant you got hurt? >> when i first got wounded and after walter reed, i spent a year locked up in my room. i didn't want anyone to see my arm. i was angry and blaming everybody. >> reporter: william say fighter, determined he took it upon himself to do extensive research, searching for a prosthetic solution that would give him a better quality of life. what he found was oseointegration. >> for you're patients with combat-related amputees have a terrible with socket wear. many prefer not to use a prosthesis at all. >> reporter: the navy captain jonathan forsberg is a an

conscious a oncologist and leading the trial. doctors insert a titanium device through the tissue and into the bone. once the surrounding tissue heals, the prosthetic can be attached directly to the implant. >> by attaching the implant directly to the bone they can feel what they're touching. they know where their limb is in space. >> reporter: you had that old standard prosthesis for many years. you've had this for a few. how do they compare? >> you have a better range of motion. a lot more comfortable. plus all of the sweating i don't have to keep pushing down on it. with this type of procedure i don't have to worry about it at all. >> reporter: what kind of things can you do now that you could never have done? >> i can kayak and swim. >> reporter: you can swim? >> yeah, i can swim, to tell you the truth, i've done more things i do than with both arms. >> reporter: for william and dr. forsberg, it's a clear

winner. >> where do you see this going in the future? >> i see this becoming the standard of care in the united states. these are the happiest patients we have. >> that is amazing. dr. dave campbell reporting for us there. coming up next, a couple of powerful conversations on "morning joe." a mother's letters to her sons. and another on faith in this country. "morning joe" is coming right back. at 3m was a more secure diaper closure. there were babies involved... and they weren't saying much. that's what we do at 3m, we listen to people, even those who don't have a voice. we are people helping people. even those who don't have a voice. ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary

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joining us now, professor of african-american studies at princeton university, amani perry, she's the author of a new book "breathe a letter to my sons." yasmin vossoughian and carrine jeanpierre is here as well. >> there's a connection here, right? >> yes, i work upstairs from the chair. >> how is the chair? >> you're very wise to say that on national television. this is such a great conversation. your book is called "breathe a letter to my sons." what did you want to say to your sons in this book? >> i wanted to say to them notwithstanding the many ways in which they'll confront inequality in their lives as black boys and young men and notwithstanding the terror that sometimes leads to that they can

nefr nevertheless find lives with beauty and joy. and they can do that and an ancestry legacy. >> eddie, we've had the conversation a lot over the last few years on the show. i think a revolution elation ab conversations that mothers and fathers have to have with children that i don't have to have with my children in the country. >> it's such a beautiful letter. >> thank you. >> how do you navigate the fear for them as you're trying to impart this legacy that will enavailable them this life of joy, we're afraid for them as they leave their homes. >> absolutely. >> even when they're at home we're still afraid.

>> for me, the answer is you don't evade it. it's a fact. the danger is a fact. and the question is what do you do, notwithstanding that fact, and that is what we've learned to do for generations. and a great part of it is actually take the joy of each moment. and have a meaning to the relationships that you exist in every day. and also to become justice warriors to think that there are people alongside you who are fighting against injustice as opposed to being terrified. >> it reads something distinct has happened in your time. it is the product of camera phones, the diminishing whiteness of america, the backlash against a black presidency. the persistence of american racism. law and order policing. people will say i'm being melodramatic. they have. but police kill middle class black children and adults too.

at first blush i thought that could have been my child but i've turned away with evening toetism. the truth it is it not my child. my child is here and they stand with me to honor the dead. what is the practical conversation you that have to have with your boys? this is a big alert talking about big ideas of racism in america are? but what is the practical conversation you have to have. >> well, let me -- you know, one of the things i think is distinct about what i've written, i don't emphasize the practical conversation, in part, because it gives us the false belief that if we don't do certain things, if we say certain things, if we keep our hands -- all of those sorts of pieces of advice that will did be the answer to protection. we have abundance of evidence that it does not, right, the burden doesn't fall on black children to protect themselves from unjust violence, right? the burden falls on society.

so, of course, there's bits and pieces about being safe. but the much bigger, i think, message for me is that it is not your fault and you're not a problem, right? and if i educate them as though they have to manage themselves as problems, i think i will clip their wings. and it's important for me to not clip their wings. >> karine jeanpierre has a question for you in washington. >> hi, professor perry thank you for writing this book. we have a little girl. she's 5 years old. i think there's still a lot -- sii know this is for your sons but there's something to be taken from this, strong message. so, we're living in a country that is very scary for black people. we see that white supremacy is on the rise. you have a president that spews racism and hate. what do you tell the black

community? how do you offer them hope, optimism, and also a way to fight back? what do you say? >> my answer is always to go back to the tradition, right? not only have african-americans changed society but we've changed the world with our impact and struggles for liberation. so, the message for me, though, particularly at this motel is n moment is not to think about the struggle as an individual one, but a collective one, a collaborative one. and particularly, one that requires a deep sense of community and connection. and we're actually discouraged from that. our culture is deeply individualistic. but in order to transform society, you always have to have the deep sense of trust and feeling and connection to the people around you. and that requires both political engagement, but also social engagement in a sense of a moral imperative that lies beyond your

household to the larger community and larger society. >> professor, you encourage in this book, your sons to be true to who they are. >> yes. >> and as you say, unencumbered by fear. in part you write, the greatest legacy you come to from my mind is of the people who found meaning beyond the doors of universities were the luster of careers who themselves were even in the tiniest of ways where there was hardly anyplace to be. i think this applies across the board to parents of many children, even parents of minorities or who face uphill battles. how is it that you encourage your children to be true to who they are? when in fact you as a parent who has experienced life in so many different ways sees an uphill battle especially when they encounter individuals who may misunderstand them? >> i don't. i mean, it's a practice, right, it's not something that i just

do easily. but i think there's no other choice, right? i'm often thinking, when we take about the various challenges that children in this society have, whether we're talking about children at the border, children who are incarcerated, or children who are homeless, and we have a reaction that's one of sympathy. but not often reckoning with who they are, that they are children with imaginations, that they have spirits and hopes and dreams. in this particular instance where i'm raising black boys, right, it was an opportunity for me to open the door and to think about the witnessing of all of america's children in the performance of who they are, which allows them to be expansive, notwithstanding injustice, right? so one shouldn't have to impede one's humanity as a response to unfairness. in fact, we should fight for exactly the opposite. i want my children to fight for that for themselves.

but also of the people they witnesses or believe in. >> so, i have the privilege of working to you every day. i just wanted to put that out. there's a quiet power that i've recognized over the years and that quiet power is evidenced in this book. it is an art, it's a piece of art, not just simply a letter to your sons. talk about you, yourself as a writer. >> right. >> it wasn't just simply ace me a message to your children that you aimed to do something larger -- well, it couldn't have been larger than that, but as a task as a writer. talk a little bit about that. >> sure. for me, form always encapsulates tradition. so there's echoes of those who have taken on the task in the book. i'm in conversation with the great james baldwin and tony morrison. for the reader who is familiar

with that tradition, or is interested in it, what you will find is this conversation that's happened over the course of many generations, right. about how do we impart something of value to our young and not clip their wings. that's really the investment. and to do so, with metaphors, with analogies, with examples that have layers to them. it's not an instruction manual for parenting or growing up. it's a way, it's an effort to try to resonate with the interior, but also excite the imagination and intellect about how to live for life, notwithstanding. >> it's an ordinaextraordinary called "breathe a listen to my sons." if i were you, i would ask my chair for a raise, it's that good. >> he said done. >> i'm serving as your agent. >> i appreciate that.

>> professor imani perry. thank you for that. >> thank you. >> we'll be back with more "morning joe." ♪ he could've just been the middle class kid who made good. but mike bloomberg became the guy who did good. after building a business that created thousands of jobs he took charge of a city still reeling from 9/11 a three-term mayor who helped bring it back from the ashes bringing jobs and thousands of affordable housing units with it. after witnessing the terrible toll of gun violence...

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tremfya®. uncover clearer skin that can last. janssen can help you explore cost support options. so barack obama has said that he accepted jesus christ as his personal savior, do you? >> yes, but there's so much more to it than these kind of questions that get put up as sort of litmus at the time questions about faith. to me, it is what does it mean in your life to try to live in what i was taught in catholic school even though i'm not catholic, the idea of imitation of christ. the idea that when god comes among us you see service, you see humbling. you see foot washing. feet are gross. when god comes among us, you see this ultimate expression. >> servant leadership. >> exactly. >> the first shall be last, the last shall be first, right? >> and what can be different

than what we're being shown in washington right now, often with some people who view themselves as religious on the right, cheering it on. >> that was mayor pete buttigieg on "morning joe" earlier this year talking about the idea of attempting to live one's life in the name of jesus. our next guest says we are in a moment of great moral, political, and constitutional crisis, which largely stems from how we've become disconnected from the teachings of christ. joining us now, best-selling author and founder of sojourners, jim wallace. his new book is out now entitled "christ in crisis: why we need to reclaim jesus." mike barnicle, karine jean-pierre and reverend al sharpton with us as well. jim, good morning. good to see you. >> good morning. >> many questions for you, but i start with your thesis that christ is in crisis. how so? >> well, the crisis as you all have been talking about every day is political, constitutional, it's also a moral crisis, and i think a spiritual one. lincoln said our leaders should appeal to our better angels, but we have a leader who appeals to

our worst demons, and those demons go very deep. so, my evangelical tradition, in crisis, you go back to jesus. so, i'm saying we have to go back to who jesus was when he said it, and joe often says in this show, what do you do when policies, words, and practices are antithetical to jesus? which is happening now all the time. so, i have to say, to be blunt and maybe irreverent, white nationalism is not just racist, it's antichrist. to demonize, dehumanize immigrants, it isn't just lack of compassion, it's antichrist. to mistreat women, abuse, harassment. this is not just sexist, it's antichrist. so, we have to name this for what it is. and so, i'm trying to say, let's look at what jesus asked us, and his questions, maybe the most important one, is who is my neighbor? that maybe the most important question in this political season -- who is my neighbor?

because the one that jesus says is our neighbor is the one who's being targeted by this administration. so to me, these are faith issues and not just political ones. >> you write about something in the book we've talked about a lot on this show, which is the sustained support from evangelicals for president trump, through everything, through stormy daniels, through the separation of families at the border, through all of it. evangelical support has remained relatively strong. to some people, that exposes a hypocrisy that puts politics before faith and teachings of the bible and morality and everything else. what do you say to those who stay at the side of donald trump through all of it? >> here's a radical idea -- our faith and values should shape our politics and not the other way around. and jesus has somehow survived all of us christians. so the interest in this brown-skin rabbi who was born in palestinian territory, what he's saying and doing, the interest

is way outside the church. there are millions of young people say what did he say? what did he do? the danger in white evangelicals, this population, white evangelicals, is the most resistant to a multiracial future. that's a devastating goal. so, here's the question -- when the operative phrase in white evangelical isn't evangelical, but white, we have a problem. so we've got to get to that. is the gospel clear here? is racial bigotry a deal-breaker for the gospel, when it isn't for white evangelicals? that's something we've got to deal with. >> one of the things that intrigues me about reading your new book, and the best-seller you've already written, is you are very active. you're not just one of these guys that writes books, and you know, you're active in it. what is happening to the

activism of white christian progressives we don't see? i mean, you are out there with sojourners, but you don't see a lot of people that we did see when i was a kid growing up in operation bread basket -- you see a lot of the white ministers out there. and you're out there sometimes with just a few leaders, good following, but just a few leaders, where most of the evangelical leaders have submitted to white nationalism and to trump? >> this is an opportunity. crisis is a danger. danger for the most marginalized. it's also an opportunity. what if, indeed, this brought us back to what jesus said and did? so, i am encouraged out there by what i see happening around the country. there are pastors, there are -- i mean, if jesus were here today, he'd be celebrating the black lives matter movement. he would be standing alongside our neighbors, especially who are immigrants and refugees.

he would be fiercely defending the planet from global warming. so, i want to see us go back, what the evangelicals say, go back to jesus. so, the word evangelical is interesting. to call yourself one is tough these days, but jesus defined it in janazareth, his term sermon, the nazareth manifesto. he said the spirit of the lord's upon me because he brings good news to the poor. and the word for good news is evangel. so if it isn't the good news of the poor, it isn't the gospel of jesus christ, period. >> jim, i don't think you have time to answer this question, but how do we get out of this moral crisis? you started off the conversation talking about that. especially in a time where we're in a country where it's incredibly divided. you have a president, as we mentioned, as you mentioned, who is dividing us with hate and, you know, bigotry and racism and xenophobia. how do you get out of this moral

crisis? what do we need to be doing? >> i think we've got to not just go left and right but go deeper. how do we go deeper here? and this crisis makes an opportunity for that. so, i've talked about -- i've wrestled with jesus' questions here. who is our neighbor? and it's clear in the good samaritan parable, our neighbor is the one who is different from us. gustavo, a theologian, says you've got to go outside your path to find your neighbor. in this season coming up, until we find our neighbors again, we're in serious trouble. if we do that, though, and ask -- he says, "what is the truth?" the problem isn't just all the lies you always talk about here. he's saying there is no truth. wash your hands. fake media. jesus says, you'll know the truth? the truth will set you free. fear. be not afraid, jesus says, eight times. well, they're running on fear. they're running against the immigrant, running against our

neighbor. so, i think this could bring us back to what jesus said and did. so, maybe america needs a reintroduction to the person and teachings of jesus christ. i'm hoping that goes deeper and can bring some -- politics by itself, even an election by itself, as you know so well, isn't going to heal this nation. so, how do we go back to something that can bring us together again? >> so, the reintroduction of jesus into the politics of this country or into the country itself, how is it going to happen? if you look at the field now, there are several people in the race for president of the united states who are people of deep faith. >> mm-hmm. >> i know that vice president biden carries a rosary with him every single day in his pocket, okay? and yet, you listen to not just joe biden, but most of the candidates on the stump, they never, ever mention god and faith. what is up with that? >> you know, the narrative on

religion in politics has been bad for a long time, where republicans claim to own religion -- >> yeah. >> own god. and democrats, interesting. the base of the democratic party is african-american women. so, the base is the most religious population in the country. >> that's right. >> yet, democrats are reluctant to talk about faith, which is ironic. the good news is i know some of these candidates, and they are -- some of their bibles are underlined. they want to talk about faith. we're having some conversations about faith. but i want the democrats not to create our religious left, like republicans have created a religious right, wrapping our ideology and politics around our faith. faith should hold us accountable. for example, in the book, the last test of discipleship is when jesus talks about the least of these. we're to be tested by how we treat the least of these. jesus didn't say, well, i was going to talk about the hungry

and thirsty and naked and stranger strangers, immigrants, of course, but i'm afraid that will be politically divisive. so i don't want to talk about that. no, he said, i was hungry, i was thirsty, i was naked, i was sick, i was a stranger, as you did to the least of these you have done to me. that text, how we treat the least of these, holds all parties accountable. >> this ought to be mandatory reading for all of the candidates and the president of the united states. the book is on ichrist in crisis." jim wallis calls it a spiritual field guide. great to have you. >> thanks. >> chris jansing picks up the coverage notch. >> thank you. chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle this wednesday, november 27th. new revelations this morning about what was going on inside the west wing after president trump froze military aid for ukraine. and new questions surrounding the president's state of mind when he finally did release that money roughly