thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is friday, november 29th. here's what's happening this morning. president trump back in florida, resuming his holiday vacation after a surprise thanksgiving trip to afghanistan visiting with troops who are still fighting america's longest war. the president praising the troops and promising to bring more service members home, then delivering an optimistic message on a potential deal with taliban just a few months after cutting off talks completely. >> the taliban wants to make a deal. we'll see if they make a deal. if they do, they do. if they don't, they don't,

that's fine. >> kelly o'donnell is covering the president. now that the president is back home how is the white house describing the afghanistan trip? >> reporter: well, good to be with you. this is a chance for the white house to take a little breather from all of the impeachment talk and to try to position the president in his commander-in-chief role and doing something that adds to the holiday. this is the first time the president went to afghanistan. last christmas time he went to iraq. two visits to conflict zones. they said it's a focus on about thanking the troops who are serving. then we saw how it played out where the white house contacted president ghani of afghanistan just a couple of hours before the president landed there. he came over. they had a brief meeting. in that exchange we learned that the president is saying the u.s. restarted talks with the taliban. that's notable because we know the president's policy

objectives are to reduce the size of the u.s. force in afghanistan to try to end the longest war. of course, a lot of his military advisors and allies in the senate are telling him that the presence of the u.s. in afghanistan is keeping things more stable, and not to reduce the numbers too quickly. so this is a trip where the president gets to have some of that interaction with members, men and women in uniform, to be able to be seen there in that commander-in-chief role without some of the controversy. it was notable he did not the talk about democrats or partisan politics in his address. we've seen him get political with service members before that. that didn't happen this time. all right, kelly, thank you. i want to bring in michael crowley. he traveled with the president to afghanistan. he joins us by phone. michael you were there with the president. tell us exactly what happened. >> first of all, kind of an

amazing experience because this trip was kept off the president's official schedule. this was a secret journey, and even the reporters who were going we did not know our destination for sure although we had some pretty good guess's until we were in the air about a, i think 11 hour or so flight to bagram airfield. air force one was completely darkened with shades drawn. then the president sat down, had some food with the troops, complained later that he wasn't able to get a bite of turkey. he said he did have some mashed potatoes. had that remarkable meeting with president ghani. talks are under way with taliban. these trips are sort of formalities. he made some important news and then gave those remarks. right back on the plane and here we are back at the usa, 36 hours after our departure. >> let's talk about that news specifically the remarks he made around getting close to a deal with the taliban. what do you know about that?

>> well, viewers will remember that u.s. spent months talking total ban in doha through the president's special envoy and we were close to an agreement under which the taliban would renounce international terrorism, and take other measures for the beginning of a phased u.s. withdrawal. america has about 13,000 troops in afghanistan, way down from a peak of 100,000 in the obama administration. and president trump is looking to get that number down below 9,000. you know, there's a sense he probably wants to go even lower but as kelly said in the intro, military officials and experts say it's dangerous to go too low because you can see the taliban overrun the afghan government and isis has a strong presence in the country. the president scuttled those

talks in september. he talked about a meeting at camp david which was cancelled. but it's not clear what the status of the talks may be. >> thank you. glad to hear you're home safe. let's bring in our panel. "washington post" white house correspondent, l. times report, and john gantz, former speech writer to ash carter and the author of "white house warriors how the national security council transformed the american way of war." the there have been so many fits and starts when it comes to talks with the taliban. where do you think we stand? >> the president did make some important news yesterday, as michael mentioned in saying that the talks have restarted. if, in fact, these are face-to-face talks between u.s. officials and taliban officials, that is a whole lot farther towards resolution of this deal

than frankly any other president has gotten. and trump want credit for that and if he does bring to it pass he'll desifrt. but the taliban is -- i know -- >> is there anything behind it? could he have been speaking off-the-cuff which we know the president is known to do. >> but, we do know that this did get farther under the lead on envoy than these talks have gotten in the past. the big hangup is what the u.s. wants the taliban to do, which is two fold. a cease-fire and to go into direct negotiations with the kabul government, the ghani government that the leader of whom trump met with yesterday. the taliban says why would we do that? they are just a puppet government for the u.s., we just want to talk to the u.s. trump gave them something that other presidents hadn't which was face-to-face talks with a

u.s. envoy, a representative of the u.s. government, and that actually may lead to a cease-fire, which would be a big deal. >> john, how does this play to our partners in the region because when it comes to the president's snap decisions or surprising decisions when it comes to foreign policy one could say they got whiplash at this point. >> absolutely. what we see in the region and especially not just within the region but with our alliance with nato and other partners who played a critical role in average, what you see, two things. a wait and see the to see what the president wants to do. he made it clear on the campaign trail that he is interested in making progress on afghanistan and trying to bring americans home. the challenge he's got from both with our partners and the u.s. forces who are sort of there and with the american voters is that military parlance the adverse saerks the enemy gets a vote. they don't vote in the election but they can complicate what he's trying to accomplish

heading into an election year. he wants to deliver something. taliban knows that timing as well. >> is this trip a big win for the president politically when it comes to his base? you can look at the polls or look at the 2016 election, rank-and-file military do stand with the president. >> they do. even though there's a lot of consternation upper level brass at the pentagon, rank-and-file members and president loves those photo ops being out there with the troops and having the country see that. i had a trump adviser text me impeachment just got punched in the face and adam schiff isn't take his ball going home because the president did that photo op at bagram. but there's nothing here -- the domestic politics, it is what drives trump's foreign policy, but so calsified.

a trip like this will not change a whole lot. you're going through impeachment. you need to look presidential. he went to dover last week to see the bodies of a couple of service members being transferred home to pay his respects there. that's something we hadn't seen him do before. so he is sort of heeding that advice trying to get out, trying to look presidential and he's motivated certainly in these taliban talks or at least saying the taliban talks have restarted by giving the public the impression of progress here because he does see that election coming and he would like to be able to say i've checked that off my list. >> john, there is a divide that eli mentioned the president has had a lot of support from rank-and-file military, a far more volatile relationship with the leaders of our military, very volatile, even in the last few weeks. how does a trip like this play especially when he makes off-the-cuff remarks about the taliban? >> two things. imagery was great. him surrounded by a bunch of

troops in combat uniform. the military vote is more complicated. you mentioned the brass and enlisted. there's lots of different racial and socio-economic background. i like to remind people the audience is more complicated because there's a lot of people who have a say like spouses, support networks, parents of service members who can do that. the message donald trump sent to troops not just with afghanistan but with his decision last week to intervene in the case of eddy gallagher over what many called war crimes suggests to the troops that he doesn't always have their best interests at heart because america has long supported and the military and service members long supported war crimes and the geneva convention not just because it's the right thing to do but our service members can find themselves at risk if they get captured or exposed to the enemy. the message is more complicated and his decision to go to afghanistan doesn't counteract what he did last week.

>> the imagery of the president standing there with troops behind him, the president tweeted a bunch of photos from the trip. that's a big win for him. do you think, ann, given the impeachment battle is going on, the president sunday attack in all sorts of ways, are we going to see more overseas trips that given these kind of photo op scenarios? >> we do know he's going to london next week for a nato meeting. that isn't quite the same kind of imagery and except for the fact he'll hang out with boris johnson. not a trip the president is particularly looking forward to. it will be politically important, those because he'll talk about a couple of priorities for him, which getting other countries, other nato nations to pay more, and we will hear him, no doubt, distort that record, but he does, has gotten european nations to, several of them to increase

their domestic military spending. he conflates that with some sort of donation to nato which is not a thing. he'll take credit for getting germany that's politically difficult for angela merkel to do. >> isn't that the best situation for the president's defenders, other political leaders who say listen, he may have stretched the truth but at the end of the day he got the job done because the president has been lying for last two and a half years about our nato partners and their tricks. but they have done more. >> i was at the nato summit last summer and trump threw them into emergency session twice because of this implicit threat that the u.s. might withdraw from nato if other countries didn't contribute more. obama had already secured this pledge from nato members to necessary to 2% to gdp by 2024. he gets them to reconfirm and then holds a press conference,

look what it did. talk about domestic politics, sort of driving a president's foreign policy, he's there and he's basically using all of america's most important long standing democratic allies to make a point to sort of throw them under the bus, threaten them to make himself look tough to his political base back home as if america is not getting taken advantage of any more. even though it apals people who watch foreign policy and think there's something more important than values that drive our foreign policy beyond domestic politics and solidifying your base it works for the. to solidify that base. the president has indicated before going to london that the u.s. may be lowering its commitment to nato. which sends another message, you know, to the world that we're fine with basically empowering russia. >> if the president from beginning has said america first, we don't care about anybody else, that works for his base and obama may have secured

that support but the president sold it and selling it is what got him into office. >> absolutely. i think democratic and other sort of opponents of the president's message on nato will say much less do with the president's rhetoric and much more to do with russia's actions. european nations are reacting to fact that russia is being more provocative, to sort of defend and promote its own sort of sphere of influence and own interest. i think they are reacting more to that than anything the president is saying. they might give the president some credit but they are looking far east and looking at moscow more than they are at washington. >> what a great way to our morning. coming up, 2020 contender mayor pete buttigieg is apparently winning over one key grouch voters but will that group be enough? but first just days before the house judiciary committee holds its first impeachment hearing a new report shedding light on president trump's dear friend and lawyer former new york city

mayor rudy giuliani. we're going to dive into his web of connections and you guessed it, ukraine. it, ukraine.

welcome back. the president's personal attorney and long time friend rudy giuliani back in the headlines this morning. he's the focus of a new very detailed "washington post" analysis that puts him square in the center of ukraine controversy. and the complicated web of

communications with then current and former ukrainian officials. it comes after that bomb shell reporting that while giuliani was communicating with his ukrainian officials on behalf of president trump, he was also privately pursuing a different job to represent the ukrainian government. giuliani ultimately decided not to take the job, but oak cording to "the washington post" negotiations got far enough along that legal agreements were drafted under which giuliani's company would have made more than $500,000. let's bring in our legal analyst, a former federal prosecutor, and an msnbc political contributor chief national correspondent for the "new york times". glenn, even the though it did not pan out why is it problematic that gull was pursuing a deal to work with the ukraines while running this shadow foreign policy operation?

>> here's why it's problematic. so, giuliani is representing president trump. >> you're smiling in the naughtiest of ways. >> i'm trying to hold back a little bit. my volume will go up. he's representing president trump. he's over in ukraine, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. he's interviewing a witness who can provide helpful information, he believes, in furtherance of that representation of trump. now he tries to strike a side deal with the witness to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars. you know what that does? it squirrels. it renders useless any information he might get that was part of that representation of trump in the first place. it's double dealing in the worst way and it's basically like ethics 101. i wouldn't put that on an exam for my gw students down the road

because they would check the box unethi unethical and move on to the next question. >> giuliani will argue the president doesn't pay him for legal services. but his argument is he can get paid from others. where it is snilg >> that's the question. there was a draft indictment against giuliani that was created recently just as an exercise by a couple of former prosecutors, and among the charges that they think could be possible are conspiracy to commit bribery, conspiracy to defraud the united states and also contempt of congress. so there's a lot out there. i think what we see evidence of so far is giuliani, as glenn said, looking to make some money for himself but also i think at some point he realized and i refer to the blagojevich situation where he had the power

to appoint a successor for then senator obama when senator obama won the presidency and he referred to it as f-ing gold. giuliani figured out with respect to ukraine that the president had something f-ing golden. he had a white house meeting and this military aid and giuliani may have decided that well the president should get something in return. and therein lies the complicated scheme we see. >> f-ing golden unless the president is turning on rudy giuliani. mark, does he seem to be. based on very recent comments, i don't know, seems like he's distancing himself. >> people were looking to this possibility that he'll throw rudy under the bus. but they are looking for signs that this was starting. and it seems to be pap story like this on its surface looks

like it could be very bad for the president but it's very bad for rudy. the president sees this web of complication around ukraine. doesn't like the way it looks. would see this as an excuse to potentially create greater distance and maybe even fire rudy giuliani. there's no indication we'll go that far but this is the kind of thing that the audience would not be happy about. >> has rudy ever been officially hired? >> only in so much when the president goes out in public he says my personal attorney. the perception is he's his lawyer. if people asked who is the president's chief lawyer right now they would say rudy giuliani. >> "new york times" put out federal investigators are looking into this. giuliani's role to youft marie yovanovitch and scrutinizing any financial dealings he may have had with ukraine. if they get to the bottom of

this and he did do these things what could the consequences be? >> that's why i'll jump on greg's comment a minute ago. this is a conspiracy to defraud the united states by having a foreign country interfere in the upcoming procedural election. look right now sdny fiercely independent prosecutors office is engaged in a wide ranging criminal investigation into rudy giuliani. i am hard pressed to believe that they are not finding enough evidence to charge rudy giuliani, then the question becomes what does rudy do? does he flip up to the president? i was really interested to see that now somewhat infamous comment by giuliani that he tries to throw me under the bus i have insurance. let's think. he was u.s. attorney in new york. he was mayor in new york for a combined 13 years. how much information could he

have about dirt that trump did in new york? >> you seem pretty excited about that but wouldn't you think michael cohen would have a whole lot of incriminating evidence against the president and michael is sitting in jail and the president is at mar-a-lago. >> do you think rudy wants to sit in federal prison like michael cohen is with all those people he put there when he was u.s. attorney? that's not a hospitable environment for rudy giuliani. >> okay. around the horn quickly. big week for democrats moving into the next phase of the impeachment inquiry. what are you looking for? >> the judiciary committee now -- the democrats have some challenges here. one, there's a risk of sort of a dilution of shock value. the first couple of big swings came over the last couple of weeks. adam schiff became the central figure in all of this and now nasdaq which shard act to follow. i also think is this reaffirmed? who will come forward again? we'll see the same cast characters or will new people

come and tell stories? >> what do you think? >> same. i would echo what mark just said. will there be new witnesses? we've heard a lot but thought that the hearings that adam schiff conducted were very, very informative and shock in some respects although i'm not sure the needle moved with most americans. but there's a lot there. will there be more? will there be surprise witnesses? >> so, it will be interesting to hear the academics testify about the definition of high crimes and misdeamnors but beside the point because we already have one of the big four, treason, bribery, high crimes and misdeamnor. we got bribery. >> we'll leave it there. we got bribery. thank you all. i'll share a quick devastating story we learned overnight. investigators in ohio are trying to figure out what sparked a deadly fire at a wildlife park. the flames broke out last night at the fredrickian safari wildlife park in port clinton, ohio. ten animals in a barn were

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. welcome back. i'm stephanie ruhle. he's the youngest 2020 democrat but at just 37 years old mayor pete buttigieg is increasingly appealing to older voters. the "new york times" reports on a pitch pete buttigieg is making to voters in iowa calling himself the retirement guy and pushing his long-term care plan. that might help explain the surge he's seen to second place in the latest quinnipiac poll behind bidenen but ahead of elizabeth warren. former chief communications adviser to paul ryan and the co-founder of third way. jim a lot of talk this week about mayor pete's struggles, specifically with african-american voters. if he makes this boomer boost with senior citizens could that put him over the top because senior citizens come out in droves to vote. >> yes.

look he put out a retirement plan. if you look at the coalition right now supporting pete buttigieg, 85% of his supporters are white and 80% of them have a college degree. well who is worried about retirement? people who don't have a college degree, and, you know, might not have 401(k)s and a lot of minority voters who earn less than white voters that are worried about retirement. i think it's trying to reach seniors but also trying the to reach some of those groups where right now he's not real strong. >> what do you think >> i think he's winning that group on substance and style. people talk about how he's just like what a senior citizen thinks a younger american should be. he served in the military. educated. he tucks in his shirt. also -- >> he tucks in i had shirt. >> also on the substance. what we know about seniors they value stability. i remember back my old boss there were ads with paul ryan pushing a woman in a wheelchair over a cliff. those are effective ads. seniors care about medicare,

social security and what he's promising is stability whereas some of the other people running for president are talking about re-imagining the country wane that's threatening to senior citizens. >> to senior citizens but what does this do to young voters? one would think that pete buttigieg the youngest person out there running would have young voters super excited. >> definitely there's a lot of young voters that are excited about pete. there's also a lot of young voters that are saying i'm not saving for retirement at all or saving for anything, and i thought pete buttigieg's plan -- i look at a lot of these plans, his plan is very good. make it so every single person would have a 401(k). that would appeal to younger voters as well as it appeals to older voters. >> what do you think is happening with kamala harris. "washington post" and "new york times" reporting the campaign is struggling around fundraisers. she had a fantastic big first debate. big boost after that.

>> next debate people focused on her and she wasn't able to answer tough questions. she had the style. she's a dynamic, engage candidate but that's not enough. you need substance. you recall for the first two months of this campaign any time somebody asked her a tough question she said we should have a conversation about that. all of her proposals are designed to fend nobody. when you try to offend nobody you excite nobody at the same time. she hasn't been able to outline a vision for anybody to get excited about as a candidate. >> elizabeth warren has had an enormous amount of support. in the last week we saw some bad poll numbers. would you connect this to actually seeing her policies? you said you spent an enormous amount of time reading these plans. specifically around her wealth tax, we hear elizabeth warren use it's just two cents on billionaires. it's not. it's 3% to 6%.

she has wide support for the spirit of redistribution of wealth or trying the to fix capitalism but why are we seeing a drop in poll numbers? is it in the plans and why she's not representing it? >> three words. medicare for all. it was a disaster for her. i don't think the wealth tax is a problem for her. all democrats want to raise taxes on people who are worth millions of dollars and billions of dollars. it's how you do it. medicare for all, she raised her hand, i'm with bernie. that was a big mistake. then he/she put out a plan to pay for it. it didn't pass the smell test. it was about $10 trillion short of what it was really going to cost and a lot of her revenue wasn't real. then he/she started to back away and say i'll do it in two stages. it is the shoals on which a lot of campaigns flounder and it's a problem for her. >> do you agree >> absolutely.

health care is the third rail. last four times the house has flipped, three times it's been around health care. i don't know why she would want to lead with that issue. basically i'll raise taxes and take away your health care you like. that's not a winning message. >> we have some breaking news right now getting reports from london of an ongoing incident the at the london bridge. police are currently responding to the incident and are asking information avoid the area completely. we'll continue to follow this story and bring you any new updates. we don't have any more details at this moment but stay tuned. as a struggling actor,

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you do not need notice tell you. today is black friday, shoppers. the biggest day of the year for shop earns businesses. for workers, it's the start of a very hectic sprint to the holidays. according to the national retail federation 115 million people are expected to shop today but how they shop is about to cross a threshold. shoppers say they will be doing more shopping online than in stores this holiday season. this comes as new report is pulling back the curtain on the toll this is taking on workers, shift workers at amazon fulfillment centers. those who are fulfilling many of these orders. according to reveal, internal injury records from 23 of the company's fulfillment centers shows a rate of serious injuries

of 9.6 per 100 full-time workers. that's double than the national average. joining me is an author who is looking into the cost of black friday for amazon's workers. what did you learn about the toll this is take on those workers? >> the focus on total efficiency at amazon is take really bad toll on workers bodies as well as their mental health. there's an investigation about these pretty devastating injury rates at amazon warehouses. they are becoming a dominant force in the warehouse logistics industry. amazon is in a position to release standards for this industry. what we see from injury reports that's amazon's own recorded data. the injury rates are astounding.

it's more dangerous than occupations like coal mining and log. amazon is, should be held to account for some of these safety conditions. >> what does that mean hold to account? are they violating any labor laws? >> they have been cited by occupational safety and health administration and they have faced some consequences, but the regulatory regime in this country is so weak, that many companies the size of amazon can get away with devastating injuries and some deaths we've seen at amazon warehouses. >> i want to read what amazon told reveal about its injury report. they said this. amazon's injury rates are so high because of its aggressive about reporting their own worker injuries and they are very cautious about allowing injured workers to return to work before they are ready. they are basically making the argument it's because of their standards they record every one of these possible injuries that we're aware of them.

i want seems like they are saying there isn't a huge increase. >> when you're a company that's amazon's size you don't get points for honesty so just because they are diligent about reporting doesn't mean what they are reporting isn't troubling the. a company with as much influence as nasdaq, with as much capital as amazon should spend should be adhearing to much higher safety standards. what labor advocates say it's built into amazon's business model to focus on efficiency and put people under these super human levels of stress. so many workers have reported even having their sleep disturbed and they are suffering chronic bodily pain while they are working. it's not just the acute injuries, those could be egregious, just the relentless pressure people are under every day. this is a company with hundreds of thfds workers. if they are not setting standards, who will? >> is amazon getting more scrutiny because it's a large company and growing by the day

>> yes. but it should be under a lot of scrutiny because it's an enormous company and it's expanding. it's not just its retail operations, those are really huge and changing the way that retail business works in this country. it's amazon contract the government because it offers cloud computing services to agencies like the department of homeland security. and so amazon is under a lot of scrutiny because many of the operations that it supports under the federal government have been associated with human rights violations. that's another area that amazon has been under scrutiny for. overall it's such a huge company and has such dominant power in many jurisdictions across this country you have labor advocates, civil rights advocates, saying amazon needs to be checked and have a number of presidential candidates now who are actually saying that they are going to bring

antitrust laws to bear or bring labor laws to bear on amazon and it's probably about time. >> do you foresee any of those changes happening? because as it relates to even just holiday shopping, we know shopping online is only going to increase. >> yeah. it's really difficult for us as consumers to envision disentangling yourselves from amazon's market power but that's not entirely our fault. amazon has grown to such an extent that it's preach, you know, it's really difficult to do any sort of online transaction without running into amazon. but there has been a ground swell of labor organizing in amazon warehouses, there's been a coalition, national coalition that's recently emerged as a grassroots coalition that's designed to campaign for workplace stress test across the country. recently in new york we saw plans for amazon's hq2 headquarters, corporate

headquarters get thwarted by a ground swell of public opposition. communities are waking up. consumers are waking up. and labor advocates and unions are waking up as well. >> michele, thank you so much more joining us on a very important shopping day this black friday. >> we take you black to london where police currently are responding to an incident at london bridge. i want to bring in erin mcloughlin who joins us by phone. what happened? >> reporter: i'm in a bit of a traffic jam at the moment on the way to london bridge. we just saw three police vance passing us, making their way to the bridge as well. we have a few more details from the metropolitan police, via their twitter account. let me pull up the tweet here and read it to you saying police were called at 1:58 p.m. to a stabbing at the premises near london bridge. emergency services attended including officers from the met marines had been detained by police.

we believe a number of people have been injured. further info to follow. social media video from passer by passerbys showing three police officers with guns raised pointing at a man lying on the ground on the bridge. it's unclear at this moment exactly the sequence of events that precipitated that measure. it's very unusual to see police here in london raise their guns in that manner in such a public and iconic location. we understand that the entire bridge has been cordoned off, not allowing traffic across the bridge. not allowing passerbys as the situation develops again. we're waiting for mother information from the police. they say they will be providing that shortly. >> all right. erin, we'll stay connected to you throughout the hour and give

us updates as soon as you can. erin mclaughlin joining us from london. the dangers of demonizing your opponents. that's next. at's next. skin sin #17...

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welcome back. we are continuing to monitor the situation on the london bridge, which has now been completely evacuated. we know one man has been detained, several people injured. we will keep you up on that situation as we get more information. back here at home, we are talking about faith. a claim from two of president trump's prominent evangelical supporters is making big waves, talking about critics of the president, radio host and franklin graham, who heads the billy graham evangelical association, had this pretty important exchange. >> what do you think of what is happening now? i mean, it's a very bizarre situation to be living in a country where some people seem to exist to undermine the president of the united states. it's just a bizarre time for most americans. >> well, i believe it's almost a

demonic power. >> i would disagree, it's not almost demonic. i mean, you know and i know that at the heart it's a spiritual battle. >> joining me now to discuss, former adviser to president george w. bush and senior fellow at the ethics and public policy center. peter, welcome. they didn't talk about policy or politics. these are two very influential people in the evangelical community talking about demonic powers. >> i think the reason they don't go into policy, that's a weaker ground. this is a conversation-stopper to say that your critics are being driven by demonic powers. it's theologically very damaging and dangerous. it's an effort to sub order nature politics or faith, actually, to politics. that is politics becomes the prism through which people view faith. and it's harmful.

it's harmful to our politics because if you say that people are being driven by demonic powers, then you can't compromise with them. they're not fellow citizens. but i think it's a terrible witness for christianity. people look at this and they say this is nuts. this is a kind of moral freak show. so i think it's down on all sorts of levels. but it is important in this regard, it's a window into a particular mindset that informs not all, but a lot of white evangelical supporters of trump. >> can't they simply say we love this president because we got two supreme court justices and we think we might get a third and a record number of federal judges? >> that's a serious argument. but i think for a person like franklin graham, that is a default position for him. they really believe that the people who are opposing donald trump, the critics of him, are being driven by satanic forces.

their argument is weak and it's one of the reasons that the critics of trump, and in this particular interview, metaxis presented that it's theologically based. the criticism by people who are christian and non-christian against trump is that he's a man who is utterly corrupt and that that corruption is radiating effects and is harming the country. but that is an argument that they tend not to want to make, so when you can't defend your argument, you blame it on the other side. >> blame it on the devil. >> this is just another examing of the grifting that's taken place. they're doing what's good for them and they're supporters that support the president are lining up with him. that's what this is to me. >> once upon a time the evangelical movement led the

abolitionist movement in this country and there are a lot of great evangelical leaders in america and it's time on the 50th anniversary for them to raise their voice. >> what do 2020 contenders do about this? >> i think pete buttigieg is the best because he is the one that can speak about faith most fluently. but i think if you were a democrat i would use this to illustrate what is happening in the trump supporters. they're just kind of going outside the boundaries and parameters of normal politics. and just to echo what jim said, i do think it's important at this point for people who have a different view who are evangelicals to speak up. because they're writing the script, the narrative, and people have to give an alternative narrative, otherwise people think this is what all evangelicals believe. >> we have to take you back now to another important conversation. this incident developing in london. jim cavanaugh, former special

agent in charge for the atf. i know we have limited information. but london bridge, at a time when many people are traveling in london, what do you make of what we learned so far? one man detained, several people injured. >> it looks like the police have shot a suspect right in the middle of london bridge. he's laying down right on the street from some of the photos i've been able to look at with the metropolitan police surrounding him. metropolitan police, it's heavy with police patrols there all the time because of past incidents that you've covered and terrorist incidents on the bridge and the parliament all around the central london area. and they pursued apparently a suspect and shot him down in the middle of the bridge. some of the photographs coming out from there, you can see there's a truck kind of moved

sideways and a suspect down. police around that area. so it looks like they might have stopped what was happening, but we don't know yet, steph, what started the whole thing. is it a domestic dispute? we don't know. it started maybe at a residence. we're not sure. >> let's see if we know more. our reporter on the scene joins us by phone. give us an update of exactly what you know. >> reporter: stephanie, at the moment i'm walking towards london bridge. the streets surrounding the bridge have been core donned off. they are allowing foot traffic to approach the bridge, but not cross the bridge. i've seen a number of emergency vehicles, police vans also driving towards the bridge area. they're likely to set up a police cord don as it continues.

video has captured eyewitnesses aboard a bus that was on the bridge at the time of the incident, and it shows a number of individuals on the ground, what appears to be a scuffle. and then you hear a police shot fired. you see one passer by seemingly block off with the suspect's knife. we're still waiting for more details from the metropolitan police. we know they were called to the scene at 1:58 p.m. to a stabbing near london bridge. one man has been detained and a number of people injured. >> we're going to continue this coverage. jim cavanaugh, erin mclaughlin, that craps that wraps up this hour for me. i'm going to send you to chris jansen in new york. >> good morning. i am at msnbc headquarters in new york. my thanks to stephanie ruhl. i'm going to get you back to breaking news out of london where police are in the early

stages of what they're calling an incident on the london bridge. the scene that you're seeing is not the london bridge. it's something called burrow market. it started on a small food market, stalls. it's turned into one of the most popular destinations for locals and tourists, alike, with literally hundreds of food stalls, restaurants, retail. it's just always a packed area of london. of course they have it blocked off now. but you can understand why if there was some sort of threatening incident, immediately there would be concerns because of just how dense it is always with foot traffic, with people there. let's go back to erin, who is -- are you on the scene yet? are you heading toward the scene, erin mclaughlin? >> i was just talking to a police officer there. i'm just passing the police cordon. th t