we're out of time for this hour. i'll see you back again at 2:00 p.m. eastern. but time now for "up with david gura." well, this is up. i'm david gurra. as a new phase begins, the chairman outlining what is next in a letter to president trump. asking the president to participate and in a separate letter reminding republicans they are able to suggest witnesses. expect we're going to see a report from the house intelligence committee in the next few days. new reporting this morning on senator kamala harris's campaign on infighting, problems with fund-raising, polling and personnel, one jumping ship to advice bloomberg. duvall patrick is going to join us. president trump is in

florida this weekend just back there a prip to afghanistan has the fallout continues here from his decision to fire the secretary of the navy. bring you the latest from london as well. new details on the attack on london bridge. contributing writer, sundays delpercio is an analyst. micha michael. suffice to say this is going to be a big week for president trump. he is scheduled to be in london from monday until wednesday for a big nato meeting pegged to the 70th anniversary of the transat laent alliance. the house committee will hold the first meeting. the chairman has invited president trump and his legal team to participate. he said in a statement, the president has a choice to make. he can take this opportunity to be represented in the impeachment hearings or he can stop complaining about the

process. in the latest letter which he sent last night, nadler outlined what the house intelligence committee's report will center on and set a deadline of december the 6th, to decide if they want to suggest their own witnesses. president trump tweeted, he would love for multiple current and former officials including former national security adviser john bolton, and mike pompeo, rick perry and mick mulvaney to testify, it remains unclear if the president and his team actually want that to happen. it will be up to the house jieshry committee too synthesize what is in a report which we expect any day and draft charges against the president. those potentially have bribery, abuse of power, obstruction of justice and congress. i spoke with joaquim jeffries about the timeline. he's the chairman of the house democratic caucus.

>> when you go back home to brooklyn for thanksgiving, where are we going to be in this process? do you have a a sense? >> speaker pelosi has consistently said that we will proceed expeditiously. we will continue to proceed fairly and thoroughly. no timeline has been put on this inquiry in terms of a hard stop. because our job is really simple, follow the facts with apply the law, be guided by the constitution, present the truth to the american people. the truth will dictate the timeline and when the impeachment inquiry ends. >> elie spoke, i'm going to start with you, present the truth to the american people. i look at this letter. he talks about interference in elections, talks about obstruction, the obstructive behavior we've seen, and he

gives a nod to the mural report as well and what was outlined therein. what do we learn from this, how this is going to be sold, how the truth is going to be sold or communicated to the american people? >> the democrats have tried to follow the facts to this point. they've also tried to be very transparent about that to present that as such to the american people, because they're aware the president carping about the process, portraying all of this as a partisan sham and so they are trying to counter that, you know, optically. the problem is that the president has been successful in keeping his base right where it is. the numbers haven't really moved much on impeachment and democrats know they are trying to be transparent and open about the process, about the evidence, really wanting to put the evidence forward here, so that the country understands why they're doing this and that it's not about partisan politics. but the democrats have also conscious of the clock and not wanting to let this continue for

weeks and weeks. that's why they're not fighting in court to get john bolton into the witness chair. nancy pelosi wants this to be condensed pretty quick and move these art cals out of the house by the end of the year. >> let me ask you what we're looking ford to in that hearing loom. there's a dead line for the president to decide if he wants to put forward any witnesses on wednesday. we don't know who those are going to be. they're going to be academics talking about impeachment in history. do you expect him to take it down to the wire? what's your sense of the white house's willingness or eagerness to this process? >> i don't think they will participate in the end but i think they will keep the dialogue up to keep their messaging going. >> is that a mistake? when you look back at clinton, there was a rebuttal in the judiciary committee. is it a mistake ton engage more formally? >> not for the republicans and

donald trump because they have been rebutting on conservative media. that's the difference between what we saw with clinton and nixon and today is that we see each party playing to their media silo. i hate to say it but the republicans are getting their message out to people and that's why they're supporters. we're a 50/50 country right now. they are playing to their side. i think they'll continue because they see it as an opportunity and they will -- and the president likes seeing people out there talking on his be hha. as long as they can muddle the message. i completely disagree with because i do believe the president should be impeached. i thought they should have started these proceedings in may. the message that is getting kind of muddled if you will is this is about 2020. the republicans are talking about ukraine and the meddling in 2016 because they know that people don't want to look back.

this he know that that messaging as far as saying, you're trying to stop the will of the people, works. whereas what really happened was donald trump was using his office for political gain and meddling in the 2020 election. >> mike fuchs, i go to the letter, i love the closing, t the -- i look forward to working together. some optimism for comedy that we haven't seen on capitol hill for a long time there. we saw the divide as the intelligence meetings happened. any optimism that this proceeds? >> no, not really. but i mean to susan' point, this is an opportunity. he's trying to participate. why would you give up an opportunity to put the people you want in front of the committee, in front of the american people as well to be giving the best questions you can.

when we saw the intelligence committee holding these hearings, dichb nunes, jim jordan, their lines of questions were not particularly effective. you saw them giving freebies to the other side and teeing up soft balls for the democrats there. so if the president really want a robust defense for himself like clinton, like nixon, why wouldn't he put his people before the judiciary committee to try to do whatever he can to defend himself? >> let me ask you about the split-screen. this is all going to be happening while the president is overseas, look back at the last few weeks at these public hearings. there wasn't engagement, then there was. deluge of tweets late in the night. help us understand how that's going to look with him conducting the official business of this country with an alliance with other world leaders while this is happening back home. we talk about engagement in the hearing room, this shows an actual geographic distance?

>> i think it's going to demonstrate how fractured the country is. mader has more of a juggling act. i feel like his past history with trump might come into play. obviously they know each other very well from their time in new york and brawling here in new york. i worry if he's going to be calm and collected like schiff. i feel like this is going to be more academic. i'm worried the public outside of the beltway, we have to keep the public focused on the facts. i don't know if the other side might be winning in messaging. >> this is something of a redemtive moment for jerry nadler, the pressure is on, suffice to say when it comes to chairman nadler. how is that weighing on him, that personal history, how has what happens happened here over

the last few months, affected the way he's going to approach this? >> i think he is going to approach this as unpersonally as possible. i think it's the president who wants to make this look like it's a person score that's being settled, that this is all given driven by partisan politics and i think it's incumbent on nadler if he wants to have any hope of persuading more americans that impeachment is legitimate to keep the personality stuff out of this. but donald trump is going to continue to talk about how nadler has been at him for years, and he's going to continue to portray this whole thing as a sham no matter what happens. so regardless of the actual roles and opportunities republicans have to participate, donald trump believes that anything run by the house democrats is a sham. they're bought into that argument and not going to legitimize the house proceedings by participating. the president has tweeted he's waiting -- this will be on our turf soon meaning the senate.

that's where if the president wants to call witnesses potentially we could see that hamming. the president would like there to be some proportional response like a televised show trial. i don't know that there are that many willing witnesses on the republican side given that the facts of this case are all on the democrat side. the case is incredibly clear at this point and the conversations with the leader mcconnell and other top senior white house officials have been mostly about standing up a senate trial that goes a couple of weeks and moves on. >> looks like it will take place perhaps in january. elie stoke joining us, thank you very much. on up, jared kushner's portfolio getting bigger. how one of the newest candidates hopes to capture attention. duvall patrick is going to join us right here next.

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this is up. i'm david gura. the field of candidates running is not getting any smaller. two more jumped into the race over the course of the last month. mike bloomberg the former mayor of new york city and duvall patrick former governor. he has entered the race on a shoestring budget that's opened

him up to skepticism. meanwhile biden, pete buttigieg, bernie sanders pulling ahead of the field in double digits. duvall patrick joins us now. >> good morning. good morning. >> thank you so much for being here a couple of weeks into the campaign here. i want to ask you first about why you're doing this and doing this now over thanksgiving dinner talking about moment, you getting into the race as mike bloomberg is getting into the race. what's the catalyst, what's about now that made you think this is the moment to do it? >> david, as you may know i was ready to go more than a year ago now, had organized, thought about it, understood the field, many of whom are my friends, and about two and a half weeks before we were ready to launch, my wife was diagnosed with uterine cancer. we celebrated 35 years of marriage in may. she is cancer free. and first of all, that is a blessing that we celebrate every

day. and as the campaign has -- and the election cycle has continued to evolve, it's clear to me that other candidates have spent lots of money, lots of time, and the field is still wide open. we were in new hampshire on launch day two weeks ago on thanksgiving and then to california, nevada, iowa, south carolina and then back to new hampshire to start all over again. and the reception has been very warm, very exciting. we've got a lot of work to do, no doubt about it. but there's room in this field for someone with the range of life and leadership experience that i have had, growing up in poverty, lived my own american dream and had the opportunity to lead in government, in business, in not for profits and understanding that you have to build bridges to make change that lasts. >> let me ask you about the work that you have to do, and i imagine some part of that has to do with name recognition. i'm going to play a tape a few

weeks back, i was speaking with the player of atlanta, we were talking about joe biden, this is what she had to say. >> i asked my mother as i was preparing to go on today specifically, what do you think of duvall patrick. my mother votes in every election. she said, who is duvall patrick? i said that's probably going to be representative of a lot of seasoned african-american voters. >> you can introduce yourself here. how big a problem is that, hurdle is that for you, name recognition? >> that is a hurdle. celebrity is a big part of our culture today, and we have candidates who have turned themselves into celebrity and i get that. we have work to do to introduce not just who i am but what i have done and what i am about. i do understand having lived the american dream as i said, that it's been con trained and con stricted over the years and what it takes to rebuild it and to

make it available to people everywhere. and i think that's something that people have a real hunger for and want some proof points of that. i can talk about how having come into the role of governor in massachusetts just as the bottom was falling out of the global economic eo economy and after eight years we are number one in student achoechlt, health care coverage, veteran services, energy efficiency, enter republican activity, 25-year unemployment high, that didn't happen by accident. it happened by bringing a range of points of view and interests together. many of them folks who don't normally work together and worked with each other and pointing to ambitious goals and striefg together. i think that is exactly what we need today in american. >> susan del percio has a question. let me ask you about the

logistics of all of this. you have to build up this campaign apparatus, you look at mike bloomberg, he's had that apparatus in place. you've got to build staff, set up and open offices. that is a monumental under taking. i wonder what the timeline is for that? >> it's a familiar question. when i ran for governor the first time, i had 1% name recognition, 2% on the days when we were dragging and i won that race by 21 points. we had volunteers from every single state in american sign up at duvall patrick 2020.com. within three hours of the website being opened. i'm very, very clear about the challenges, but i'm also clear that the path i thought was there to victory is even wider than i realized.

and we will build. we have to respect the calendar. we have to respect the fact that many, many people are ahead of us in terms of having spent time and spent money. but having spent that time and money, as i said earlier, the field is still wide open. and the reception has been very encouraging. >> as i mentioned susan del percio has a question about the path. >> exactly. good morning. >> good morning. >> you mentioned the word path and the calendar and that's one of the questions i have for you, is because now we're going to see five u.s. senators who are running for president back in washington, it's going open up iowa and new hampshire quite a bit for people to go in and start campaigning and get a lot of attention on the ground while they're other way. so my question to you is, was this impeachment trial that we knew was coming part of your decision making, saying, hey, if they're gone, maybe this is an opening for me because you know you'll do well in new hampshire and then roll into south

carolina? >> it's a fair question, of course, but no, that's not part of my calculation. this is a very sobering moment i think in american history, and i expect that not just the senators who are candidates who have to pay attention to that, but that all citizens are going to take it very, very seriously. >> talk a bit more about that path, where you see it leading. we hear more and more talk of a national campaign from you and like bloomberg, from beto o'rourke as well, not ignoring but not focusing all the attention on these three or four states at the very beginning. sounds good in theory, like a wholesale reinvention the way the democratic party works in terms of running candidates for election. how much of that is blind optimism, that this far along you can reinvent things in that way? >> first of all, i want to be clear, we're not ignoring any state. we will be competitive in iowa.

as i said, i have to recognize and acknowledge the calendar. we're working very hard to stand up our organizations in new hampshire and in south carolina. we have a nevada state director we've brought onboard. so this campaign is about everyone everywhere. and, you know, i'd just make the point that the folks in iowa feel very paid attention to, very important, until the day after the caucus. and then all of the attention turns elsewhere. there are reins for that that we all understand. but the point is that i am familiar, i recognize from having grown up on the south side of chicago, what it is like to feel important only during campaign times and then to vanish from the agenda in between campaigns. what we have to be about and what our campaign and my leadership as president will be about is assuring that the american dream is real for everyone everywhere.

i think we have the best opportunity in a generation or two to make that so. >> i understand you sat down with congressman jim clyburn recently, talked to him about this race. can you tell us anything more about that? he is occupying this role as someone that many candidates are seeking counsel from, what did he say to you about your involvement in that race? >> well, he's been a friend and an ally for many, many years. he's also very close to the vice president. and i understand that. so am i. he is i think being the appropriate statesman and keeping, you know, being fair and generous about his advice all around. we did talk about the vote in south carolina and some ideas that he had about how to organize and how folks in the past have been success envelope that. we have a new state director in south carolina, and we are touching base with some of the

old friends from work i have done there in the past as a civil rights lawyer and adds head of the civil rights division in the clinton administration, and also talking with the former governor hodges who i know well and campaigned with when we were campaigning for president obama's first election. and then of course we're making new friends. you'll see us much more active in south carolina much more present in south carolina in the weeks ahead. >> last question here i want to have you respond to a controversy surrounding somebody else in that lane, pete buttigieg the comments he made during that last presidential debate. he said i do not have the experience of ever having been discriminated against because of the color of my skin i do have the experience of feeling like a stranger in my own country, turning own the news, seeing my rights expanded by a coalition of people like me and not at all

like me. he then referred to coming out as a gay man in in country. i wonder what you think of that and the debate that's erupted since he made those remarks? >> mayor pete is someone i've gotten to know and i respect tremendously and i think he's running a terrific campaign. i want to be careful, david, in that i don't think it's time to sort of get into this -- these issues about relative suffering. we have all kinds of people who feel for all kinds of reasons left out and left back. and america works when we are striving to eliminate those feelings by bringing people in. that means sometimes we have to pay attention to and support folks who's struggles, sense of alienation is different from our own. but they are ours too. they are a part of the american community. and reknitting that sense of

community and common cause is not just what this campaign is about. it's what my life has been about. as i said earlier, i think this is the best opportunity i have seen nationally in a very, very long time, to have not just a campaign, but leadership in and from the oval office that's about precisely that. >> the former govern of massachusetts duvall patrick. >> thanks. another attack on london bridge being treated as terrorism. the latest from london after the break. i'm finding it hard to stay on top of things

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this is up. i'm david gura. authorities in the united kingdom is asking the people to remain alert. a man wielding a knife injured several people before he was tackled and shot and killed by police. had a history of terror related offenses. two people died. several were injured. the suspect was wearing a hoax explosive device strapped to his body. erin mclaughlin remains on the scene. what can you tell us about the suspect? we've learned more about what happened there on that bridge?

>> that's right. so many questions about how all of this unfolded. police have identified the suspect shot dead on the london bridge adds 28-year-old usman khan who was a known and convicted terrorist. he was convicted in 2012 of plotting to attack the london stock exchange as well as the u.s. embassy, sentenced to prison, released early out on early release, was electronically tagged, a judge warning that he continued to pose a significant threat to the public. and we're learning more about evebts that unfolded that day. security source telling nbc that he actually attended a conference adjacent to the bridge at fish amonger's all speaking about his own prison experiences before launching that deadly rampage.

so lots of questions here for british authorities, why he wasn't being monitored more closely. a british prime minister boris johnson visiting the scene of the attack today, acknowledging that the system doesn't work. take a listen. >> it's clear to me that this guy was out, he'd served half of his sentence, he was out on automatic early release. i have long said that this system simply isn't work. it does not make sense as a society of putting people convicted out on early release. we argue that people should serve the terrorists serve the term of which they're sentenced. that's my immediate takeaway from this. >> and this could get political for the prime minister. keep in mind the general election is some 13 days away, and he's facing even more

questions about the home office's decision to lower the security threat level here in the uk in the weeks prior to the attack. david. >> sara mclaughlin there in london. i'll turn to you about politics. not only the election, but this nato summit in a few days. >> absolutely. this goes to the broader point about how we as society respond to terrorism. acts of terror are meant to do that, terrorize countries. boris johnson's response is to try to crack down harder, criticize lax procedures for preventing a response to terrorism. the united states and the united kingdom have incredibly intensive robust policies and procedures to prevent and respond to terrorism. i think this is the right moment to talk about this. not just the attack, the nato

summit, the president visited afghanistan the other day. i think this is about how we as society respond to terrorism. we need to do a little bit more looking inward and how we can measure our responses to terrorism, increased law enforcement cooperation. >> this is a city that woefully has had too much experience with attacks like these. there was an attack just a couple of years ago. the mayor of london saying it will never be cowed by terrorism, talking about the political response to this, but there's a cultural response as well that's worth talking about. >> that is such an excellent question, point. i used to live in london. what i think is so interesting about the cultural dynamics is it's such a multicultural city. i feel like the regular profiles we apply to terrorists doesn't really apply here because it's such an integrated i feel like cultural society. that being said, it's also

interesting living in america because we're used to shooting incidents and knife crime is a big problem in london. i think it's interesting there doesn't seem to be any coordination between what happened in the hague, but it's interesting that when it comes to terrorism we all have our unique issues that we are bringing to the table i guess you could say. >> referring to this other stabbing referred to hague just a few hours after this one. jared kushner, getting an even bigger portfolio, trying to make good on one of president trump's campaign promises, coming up. for the holidays.♪ ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪ we go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. wean air force veteran made of doing what's right,. not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out

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now "the washington post" reports the president has entrusted the construction of the border wall to his son-in-law. he's become the wall's project manager and he's already pressing customs and border protection in the army corp of engineers to expedite the process of taking over land needed. it wants to build at least 450 miles by election day. so far only 83 miles have been completed. mark morgan, head of customs border patrol out with a statement, he doesn't need to know the intrikasies, he understands building stuff, timelines. what is his particular expertise? >> his big idea is to put -- >> security cameras. >> security cameras, so he can stream. >> livestream.

>> stream the completion of the wall which has gotten people bent out of shape. when that's your biggest contribution to the project, you do have to wonder if this person is in fact able to do it. i doe think seriously the president, when he's frustrated, when he doesn't trust anybody, he puts his family member in charge. so, so be it. he gives jared the responsibility. i do feel bad, though, for the people who report to him, because there are people acting in good faith in government putting forth these efforts to put up a security wall where there is a need for it in some places, not all. >> you have too many caveats to work for the president? >> now they're stuck in this parole thing with jared kushner who's going to come up with something else, i have a new idea, may not be a good one. >> he's a guy that the president can't fire. can't fire the son-in-law, can you? >> no you can't. let's not talk about nepotism. i hope in my life i find someone

that believes m me the way the president -- >>. >> looks at you the way he looks at him. >> are we in denial? i guess he's done with mid east peace and prison reform. he clearly doesn't understand how government works, doesn't have any idea or understand policy. jared kushner has is valuable is his what's ap conversations and what they're discussing over there. i love how somebody said jared kushner staring this, don't worry, the horse is not going to get very far, the wall is not going to get ball. >> at the center of this this eminent doe nain, 800 cases, that's a sizable amount. this familiar tension between the president thinking that he can do something and then the irritation of the law encroaching. you could expedite this, go around things that are law. >> it's a good example.

we're in year three, and during year four the walls are clearly closing in on him. >> all but this wall. >> it's natural for the president to choose somebody they trust and put them in charge. it's not that normal to have a son-in-law or family member in the white house doing that. but i would imagine actually seeing the president do more of this now. he can trust he feels like he can trust fewer and fewer people. he hears more and more i'm sure from officials in different agencies exactly things like this, mr. president, i'm sorry but the law says we can't do that. he said, all right, jared is going to tell you we can. i would imagine we'll see more of this because there are fewer and fewer people the president feels like he can trust right now. >> fewer and fewer people generally. for this being a marquee thing for the president, you look at the department of homeland security, it is a shell of what it was. there are so many acting officials, new report out this week, looking at the child separation policy, new dhs

report saying the trump administration knew it lacked the -- to track the children. we joke about having the visibility about what's happening here, but this is an administration that has proved it's unable to do the most basic thing. they said they had data, all of that is a complete fiction. >> it is. part of the problem there is that you have so many secretaries of fill in the blanks or deputy secretaries. the reason you get senate approval is men and women can act with authority. the president likes keeping them acting because it keeps them under his thumb but they can't push back where they're afraid, so they're not implementing new policies, just trying to keep the president happy and keep their jobs, which is a very unfortunate thing because you do see things like the separation of children. i would argue that the president could careless. he doesn't have a heart.

he's never shown compassion in any of his policies. it's amazing the ones that are controversial are in fact the one that involve people and he has no heart. >> it's interesting because it also goes to show that they had never -- they never had any intention to put these families, reunite these families. people were so shocked last week when emails came out linking stephen miller with white supremacy and racism. are we shocked that this is happening? they didn't have any intention of reuniting this families? stephen miller is a white nationalist. >> using the active voice there, he is still in his job in the white house. thank you very much. thank you to all of you. for the president's trip to london, the avalanche of impeachment hearings, take a look at the jam-packed week ahead after the break. ter the b.

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summit. days after the trump administration announced the united states will now be paying less to the historic alliance. the president has multiple meetings scheduled in france with emanuel macron and angela merkel. he does not have a summit planned with boris johnson. prime minister johnson doesn't want president trump to wade himself into the politics surrounding the upcoming election scheduled for december 12th. at the same time president trump leaves london, the house judiciary committee will begin the house proceedings. next on "up" coming up, colonel wilkerson is up. we'll talk about richard spencer's firing. make sure to tune in tomorrow as kamala harris campaign spins

into chaos. could tom steyer be the one to pick up the pieces? we'll ask about a new report that says harris advisors are already bracing for his potential primary challenge in california. as contenders look beyond the early states is there any way they can cobble together the obama era coalition. reverend william barber will join us. we have ned price, christina greer along with robert costa, maya wiley. all here on "up." up ahead, abuse of power, obstruction of justice, obstruction of congress. what are the impeachment charges the president could face? what the experts say as the impeachment moves from the intelligence committee to the judiciary committee. that's next. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance,

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this is "up on david gura." the impeachment inquiry gets ready this week. this one is on wednesday. the chairman sent another letter to president trump asking the president if he or his counsel will participate in the proceedings. introducing a new deadline by which the president will have to comply. that is by the end of the day on friday of this week. in that letter congressman jerry nadler previewing the highly anticipated report from the intelligence committee. that document will describe, among other things, a month's

long effort in which president trump sought foreign interference in our election at the expense of our national interests and be an unprecedented campaign of obstruction in an effort to prevent the committees from obtaining documentary evidence and testimony. over the holiday recess lawmakers weighing in. here is democrat robin kelly of illinois. >> if it comes to it, my vote would be for impeachment. he abuses power. i think that he tried to interfere with elections. i think there was bribery involved. >> the correspondence is voluminous. chairman nadler writing to doug collins of georgia. he is the ranking member of the judiciary committee. nadler gave him the same deadline as the president. he would like to know by friday if he would like to issue any subpoenas or seek any written testimony from witnesses. where do things stand? according to the wall street journal, a full house vote on articles of impeachment could come before christmas which would set the stage for a possible senate in january.

we have annette lopez, a columnist for "business insider" and philippe is a former deputy secretary assistant of state. and we have a white house correspondent for the "new york times." andy, let's start with a letter to the president. what's written tliherein. it seems like there will be obstruction of justice charges against the president. >> yeah, three potential charges. one is abuse of power, using his position and second is obstruction not letting witnesses from the white house to testify and holding back documents and the third potential is to look at potential obstruction charge from the mueller report, from the non-cooperation that happened there. those are the three potential charges that nadler is looking at right now.

>> andrew, this is going to begin not with a bang but a whimper on wednesday. we're not going to see marquee witnesses but academics. how does it begin and what is the course of these hearings look like? >> there's likely going to be at least three hearings. the first one is going to be focused on basically defining what is an impeachable offense. we're going to have some constitutional law scholars. the democratic majority will get to choose two or three witnesses. the republican minority will probably choose one witness. the president's lawyers will have an opportunity to question those witnesses but doug collins, the top republican on the judiciary committee says he doesn't see any reason for the president's lawyers to participate when they're going to be questioning academics as opposed to actual fact witnesses in the impeachment inquiry. congressman collins does have the opportunity to ask chairman nadler which witnesses he would like to testify, whether they're fact witnesses or whether they're scholars, people that would sort of speak to whether this is impeachable conduct.

we're not sure if they're going to participate, but the sort of procedure is that the house passed last month outlining the impeachment inquiry allow for the republican minority to have some goal. it will come down to the description and then a full vote. >> something referenced in these letters is house resolution 660 which we heard about during the course of the public hearings in the intelligence committee. there's a huge pr component to this, isn't there? we sat through the hearings, listened to the witnesses, riveted by the testimony. in this report that's going to be handed over to the judiciary committee, and in these hearings it is incumbent upon the chair, other members of that committee, to package this in a way that the americans are going to understand. >> it makes me wonder how the democrats plan to use the next couple of weeks where they have the academic witnesses. how are they going to continue to keep the narrative clear to the american people. how do they have a plan? god, i hope so. because, you know, the -- on the right you kind of see the very

simple, very cloudy narrative about what the president did or did not do. it's very -- you know, the right has always been very disciplined in their media and who knows if the democrats are finally going to be able to adopt that same kind of strategic clarity in sending their message out to the american people about what this actually is. >> annie karni, there's a reference to the mueller report and open question is how much of a nod is that committee going to give to what was established by this special counsel and his investigation and his report, how broad investigation this is going to be. how is that going to affect the articles that are brought forward here. your read on that from the letter from last night? >> again, just i think he's looking at the obstruction piece of it, not like i guess volume two, not volume one, which is the actual russian interference. the obstruction is the piece that is still an open question, it's the part that mueller never really reached a firm conclusion on himself.

we'll see what he does with that. overall the white house so far is not -- i don't think they're waiting to see which charges nadler brings up. the position so far is we're in a pretty constant -- this is a sham process. we're not going to participate at all in terms of responding to the letter telling him that the lawyers or the president himself will have any participation in the process moving forward. so far all signals lead to no participation at all. >> let's get into the simple cloudiness that linette brought up a moment ago from the gop and philippe i'm going to turn to you on the meterology of messaging. call this a mash, a contrast of what we heard in the hearing room in the capitol and what we heard from senator john kennedy of louisiana. let's take a listen to that contrast. >> some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country and that perhaps somehow for some reason ukraine did. this is a fictional narrative

that is being perpetrated and propagated by the russian security services themselves. >> let me interrupt to say the entire intelligence community says it was russia. >> right, but it could also be ukraine. i'm not saying that i know one way or the other, i'm saying that ms. hill is entitled to her opinion but no rebuttal evidence was allowed to be offered. >> philippe, we saw the senator from louisiana walk that back a little bit in the days that -- a little bit. not all the way there, but you have some insight into this. you've been in the lions den or foxhole, whatever you want to call it. how do they proceed with this? again, there is as linette was saying, what happens inside the hearing room, there's what happens outside of it and republicans have shown a mastery of controlling that. >> i'm going to take an issue with that. i agree with linette. they are incredibly disciplined and they simplify things which makes it easy for their hoards which makes it easy to mimic and to parrot. the difference here i think is

at least twofold. first, there are live human beings fighting back. unlike throughout the mueller report and investigation, there's a constant battering of mueller has conflicts, mueller is doing this, mueller is doing that, mueller was appropriately and professionally quiet. here you have people every day saying, actually, no, that's not what happened. to watch fiona hill, that's not going to walk away from that and think john kennedy knows what he's talking about. there are plenty of irrational people saying john kennedy loves donald trump, i love donald trump, that's the end of it. but, you know, there is a way -- what's not working for the republicans is their standard, you know, their tick of hoax, c chalupa. >> this is the most prevalent i've seen. >> this is not working. if it was working they wouldn't be above 50% support for impeachment. so their tricks have often worked. and the other thing just to go

back to the judiciary for a second. i don't know whether or not nadler is going to go after there has been a very big development since the mueller report which is the roger stone trial. roger stone's testimony and the court testimony and the verdict makes pretty clear that donald trump came real close, if not actually perfe actual actually perfect perjured himself. >> the facts here are so clear. the way that the republicans are behaving is more like we've seen from eastern european autocrats than we have seen throughout this entire process, which is here are the facts. not only are we going to try to destroy the characters of the people who are tell you the facts, we're going to tell you you cannot possibly know the facts. no one can know. that's john kennedy was saying. who can really know. that's exactly what vladimir

putin does every single fricken day in russia. who can know. >> philippe mentioned the polling. it was at 50% before the hearings and it's still at 50% after the hearings as far as the recent polling shows. democrats were aiming to increase that number by a lot. some democrats i talked to were not surprised necessarily that that happened because both sides are so entrenched in their views here, but practically speaking democrats should have been able to rise that number above 50% because that's exactly where it was before the hearings. >> that's exactly where it was two weeks ago. let's go back to the beginning of the year. it was in the 30s and the republicans were yelling, oh, it's only in the 30s. then it got to the 40s. oh, it's only in the 40s. now it's a majority. until it's 100% there will be -- >> when you spend hours and hours and two weeks on public hearings -- >> it means nothing republicans did helped them. >> as he said, 50% is not nothing. >> by the way, not all voting on

this. nancy pelosi needs 218 votes to pass impeachment and she's got them. >> this is why keeping the story clear from the democrats is going to be important and fighting off this republican narrative. i don't know if the democrats can reach the fox news viewers. unclear if that can happen. when nixon was impeached there was 30% of the american population that was with him no matter what. certain congressman said, sorry, i don't want to hear facts. i don't like facts. we pretend this is so much more divisive. in certain ways it is and far more precarious but there were the same zealots then and there probably will be the same zealots after this. i don't know what's wrong with people. i'm not a psychologist. >> here's the timetable for this. take a listen to him talking to reporters i believe on capitol hill. >> any idea how long the trial will last? >> there's really no way to know. no set time. we'll just have to turn to it

when we get it and work our way forward. how long we're on it will be determined by a majority of the senate. >> do you think the president acted appropriately on his handling of ukraine. >> do i what? >> do you think he acted appropriately by asking for an investigation. >> we'll deal with the matter when it comes over to the house. >> he was in london, kentucky. a nice segue for me to go back to annie karni. the president going to london, england, in the united kingdom. talk about that split screen or how the president sees that split screen. he'll leave from florida to go to the nato summit. i imagine he's going to be pleased with the images coming across. there will be a hearing in the judiciary committee. he'll be speaking with leaders. >> he'll be meeting with world leaders in london. they were pleased with his secret meeting in afghanistan which produced images of him meeting with troops. these are images of him hard at work on the job, a global

leader, meeting with other global leaders. and so that will be a nice split screen for him. the question is what's interesting about the trip to london is he's not scheduled to meet with boris johnson who has an election in a few weeks after that and that's because boris johnson is trying to stay very far, far away from trump. he doesn't think trump will be helpful in the election. it's a reminder even abroad he is seen as very -- he's not helpful to his political allies even there. that will be a tension while he's in london. it's unusual not to meet with the host leader. but the white house will certainly be playing up the images of a president hard at work. still ahead on "up" kamala harris's presidential bid is sputtering. we're going to speak with

colonel lawrence wilkinson next. ♪

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this is "up" i'm david gura. president trump serving thanksgiving day dinner to the troops. the president taking the opportunity to announce a new round of peace talks to the taliban after the first round fell through back in september surrounding the summit. surprise summit at camp david. the new talks seemed to have come as a surprise about the

taliban. the announcement comes at a time when president trump's involvement with the military is under scrutiny. most recently richard v. spencer, former navy secretary, was fired after his opposition to president trump's handling of the ousting of edward gallagher. he expressed his frustrations, his insistence to thwart this. it was a reminder that the president has very little understanding of what it means to be in the military, fight ethically or be governed by a uniform set of rules and practices. the sentiments seemed to be shared by a number of military leaders and rank and file leaders. with us now is retired colonel lawrence wilkerson. colonel, let me start by reacting to the op ed. it was scathing. this was laying out there the calls that he received from the white house counsel, the pressure that he was under. i just want to get your reaction

to, yes, the firing but also how he's written about it. >> well, there are two things that i would say right off the top. one is that the commander in chief moving down into the granular details of the uniformed code of military justice, which is in essence of rule of law for the military, is not good. it's very dangerous. it shouldn't be done. it's cautioned against even for generals to move down into the granular details of the ucmj because it perverts the system. i'm not too happy with the secretary of the navy's attempts to pervert the system beforehand, and i think the president was justified in letting him go, the secretary of defense was justified in letting him go, but this whole business smacks of using the military for political purposes. let's go to the appearance in afghanistan. one of the things i teach my students is what's the first thing a u.s. president does when he's in trouble? he wraps himself in the flag of the military.

he uses them as a backdrop. he tries to resurrect his own poll ratings by associating himself with the only institution in america, today, i'm sad to say that consistently polls above 70%. >> the colonel teaches at william & mary. philippe, let me turn to you on this. his only second trip to a conflict zone that he's taken as a president. >> this is his third year in office. we are about to have a third christmas, we've had july 4th. he didn't go to iraq until two years in. the colonel's exactly right. i mean, he's going -- you take these trips at these moments because you've got a problem at home. annie karni hit the nail on the head. he'll have a split screen. you have to think of what the other half of the screen is. trump is happy he's sitting there and holding trays of food and giving thumbs up, but the other half of the screen is nancy pelosi, impeachment and, you know, he can move to afghanistan and it's not going to make a difference. he is being impeached sometime

in the next two or three months, period. >> let me ask you about what he said when he was there. traveled 8,000 plus miles, gave a speech in the hanger and talked about re-engaging with the taliban, talked about afghanistan strategy and took a lot of people by surprise who thought the talks had been called off. there are the images we've seen, the message of going to the conflict zone and then there's this which he's introduced bringing up afghanistan strategy and showing there isn't much unanimity here. >> he loves this kind of drama as he showed with north korea and we're getting ready to see the disaster that that is pretty soon in the new year. he talked to afghan any who's in his own political battle with abdullah abdullah. we don't know who the leader is going to be. gani needs a cease-fire. he announced a cease-fire. that would be the first prospect in the re-engaged talks.

that's nonsense. the taliban are not about to grant a cease-fire. his own negotiators know that. he shocked them, too. it's another sign of an inexpert person trying to get himself involved in diplomacy way above his level of competence. >> i'm going to read here what the president gani said when he was in afghanistan. people talked a lot about bin laden but what you did who was an organizer and not a talker is a much greater talker. congratulations. >> oh, my god. every world leader in the world knows what to do to please president trump and that's tell him that he's great. it's easier to manipulate than a child with candy and he's not very bright so that's how things are done. i think one important thing that we should do in this discussion though is delineate between what is the politicization of the military and what is the

trumpification which is when donald trump takes the military, associates it with himself, his own brand and then allows it to subvert the rule of law. so we're watching donald trump make the military something that is completely above reproach just like his white house and that is something that we don't do in the united states of america. we don't make institutions that are above reproach. we can like them very much but everybody, everybody has to pay attention to the rule of law in this country, and that is a very scary thing. that's beyond politics, at least politics as we know it. that's like some banana republic stuff. >> let me turn back to the colonel here. what do you make of that? >> i think it's spot on, absolutely spot on. what we have in afghanistan right now is the same thing we had in vietnam when i left in 1970. we don't have a legitimate government in kabul, not to the majority of people in afghanistan. what we have is a government

with a relationship with the united states. the moment that relationship is severed, we go back to the past in what form anybody can guess, but this is a disaster in the making in afghanistan in so many different respects. let me just tell you as a military profession grala our presence in afghanistan if we really wanted to assert strategic interest is important. first of all, it's a very important country to get into. it's land locked. donald rumsfeld was irate when it took so long to get there in october of 2001. the second reason is we are right in the middle of china's base road initiative through central asia. the third reason is we are right next door to the most potentially destabilized stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world in pakistan. the fourth is we are getting ready for a global crisis and we know they've done that in the

past. the fourth reason is we are right next door to who we say is our principle great power in china. we should stay in afghanistan from a military professional's point of view. i understand from a citizen's point of view this is getting old and extremely old with no potential success involved with it, but there's two ways to look at this. >> last question to you on that sobering note. andrew, you covered capitol hill impeachment hearings taking up a lot of oxygen. when i was down there i know for the first hearing there were no votes. other work continues on capitol hill. >> right. >> there were those who would agree with what the colonel is saying. they would believe there is a need to stay there, we need to do this right, et cetera. how much of that conversation is happening on capitol hill? >> it's the idea of walking and chewing gum at the same time. democrats can do both, focus on impeachment at the same time whereas republicans who i talk to who regularly speak with the

president say they are urging him to use the bully pulpit of the presidency in ways like he did in afghanistan, to create the split screen that allows him to sort of look presidential in the more traditional sense, which donald trump has willingly shunned throughout his entire presidency. that's something that republican lawmakers, particularly his closest allies are urging him to do over the next few weeks. look like he's not focusing as much on impeachment. his twitter feed can tell a completely different story, but in terms of the images we're seeing coming out of afghanistan and when he travels to europe obviously next week, that's going to be really important. and that reflects the advice the republicans are giving to him as he goes through this impeachment mess. >> colonel, wilkerson, let me bring this full circle. when richard wilson had a job. is an email, a tweet a directive from the president? what does this mean for other navy s.e.a.l.s going through this process? help us understand the precedent that this sets. that eddie gallagher is back

where he was. nothing has changed. the president has weighed in. what does it mean for precedent? what happens in the future? >> there are some things that are very deep and complex here. one is that special operation forces have expanded beyond their capacity to maintain quality. so what we have in the special operating forces today is a lot of people who probably shouldn't be there. so with that as sort of a foundation for an argument, we have a very dangerous situation developing in the military with this as was pointed out earlier. this association of the president with it for purely political reasons, whether it's dispatching troops to the boarder, dispatching troops to other regions that aren't necessarily strategic or even tactical, they're simply political. this is a very dangerous situation. if we get to the point where in 2020 we have a contested election, it scares the bejee s -- bejesus out of me.

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this is "up" i'm david gura. senator kamala harris is feeling a significant dip. "the new york times" out with a major piece. reporters spoke with more than 50 current and former campaign staff members and allies who detail the dysfunction they're in including the resignation of a key harris aide who said she had never seen an organization treat its staff so poorly and with fewer days than 90, they don't have a plan to win. philippe, let's speak with you. you worked with kelly mellanbacher. she's not holding back here. this predates her saying she's going to join mike bloomberg's campaign. very principally the fact that there are two locusts to this

campaign. a california side, campaign headquarters in baltimore. is she furious that people were forced to move to baltimore under tenuous circumstances. they didn't know their jobs were going to disappear as they have. >> we've all written letters like that. >> we have? you have. >> ideally you leave them in draft form but you only write letters like that when you really care. >> yeah. >> so as frustrated as kelly is, she obviously cares a great deal about senator harris and she's angry that senator harris is unlikely to be the nominee. >> she's adamant in this piece. she thinks she's the candidate. >> that is the worst situation at all. it is one thing to work with a candidate that's dysfunctional and the candidate isn't great. to work for a campaign -- this went on to some extent in hillary's campaign in 2008. the bickering back at hq was so horrible, you knew it wasn't serving the candidate who was out and about. how to resolve that kind of thing, i don't know. i worked with maya harris who i like --

>> the sister of the candidate. >> the sister. it is very difficult to have a family member, a sibling part of the formal campaign because you have to be able to speak truth to the power to say, you know, hey, maya, the campaign that you're partly running is not working and hope that it doesn't go word for word to her sister, the candidate. >> picking up on that is this confusion -- >> trifecta. >> it's a richly reported piece but you have people telling them they didn't know if maya harris was speaking for the campaign or her sister. there has been confusion therein because of that. >> exactly. it is easy to push back against the palace intrigue stories. a lot of them are on background, anonymous. most of these are actually on the record which is what is so stunning about the way this piece was reported. i was struck particularly by congresswoman marsha fudge's

quote in there in which she said senator harris needs to fire her campaign manager. >> exactly. >> it's very rare for that to play out in public. i think she was trying to send her a message. the second dynamic that i'm focusing on here is this idea that senator harris could end up dropping out even before the end of the year, before the california filing deadline because i think the worst fear that she might have and some of her closest aides is that she gets embarrassed in her home state. earlier in the process in 2020 than it has been in the past. that's going to be a consideration for her. lastly what i hear from democrats, if she does end up dropping out, they believe she would be a very formidable vice presidential candidate, someone who would be, you know, good at debating against mike pence in the general election debate in the fall. >> i should say, in this piece is something floated here that she might have trouble running for senate. tom steyer could challenge her. he's going to join us. let me turn to you.

this is the consequence of being a long campaign. many candidate, a long campaign. this sense of how a candidate can be him or herself over the course of the campaign. there is a tension described as how she wanted to campaign initially, wanted to do it in a smaller fora. go big, go for the television moments. what does it tell you about the 2020 campaign as a whole, the way people are running, difficulty, strategy. she has made this late pivot to iowa. >> she has made this late pivot and it doesn't seem like she started out with the notion of what her campaign was supposed to be. the different slogans that they were going to have. even "saturday night live" did a decent job by saying she was constantly trying to create these meme moments. maya rudolph did a great job with that. it just does seem like even her diction has changed. she's -- she went from being more states woman, district

attorney type wlalanguage to be more folkesy. >> liberals on twitter. >> liberals on twitter. kind of being everybody's cool aunt. and, you snow, it really -- there's too many candidates for you not to have a consistent message. frankly, that's kind of how donald trump made himself stand out in that massive field of republicans. he never changed who he was. he always had a very insane, terrible, racist, clear message that he put out to the people. bernie has always been the same. liz has always been the same. pete buttigieg has changed but like he's a young guy. he's still finding his footing. for some people -- for some reason people are letting him kind of figure himself out. kamala has not gotten the same luxury of being able to figure herself out on the road. >> put the toughest question to you from a twitter follower. i'm being racist by doing this, that by highlighting this story,

highlighting what's reported here she's being subject to a different standard than these candidates. how do you look at these candidates? she's being singled out for the disfunction in her campaign. >> first, you're not being racist by covering what's on the front page of "the new york times." i don't think "the new york times" is being racist for covering the collapse of someone who at the beginning was one of the top five candidates. >> right. >> so i think they're covering reality. by the way, the media loves when anybody fails so i don't think when people drop that they won't look one at a time, including when beto dropped. so i think -- that's not to excuse how senator harris is being covered because she's getting the double whammy. she's getting covered as black and as a woman so there's absolutely a lot of that at play across the media, but i would say, you know, two things. there were 24 people who ran originally. 23 of them are going to find out how hard this is to become the nominee and they're going to be 23 campaigns full of people like kelly who put their lives into it and are going to lose.

great deal of frustration, but at the end of the day the candidate is the ceo. if the candidate wasn't comfortable -- >> absolutely. >> -- with how their campaign was being prosecuted the candidate should say, something's not right. yes, there are deployment issues. the deployment issues are because of money issues. if you think about it, one of the reasons senator harris scores a piece like this is because she was raising a tremendous amount of money to start. and she raised $2 million in the 24, 48 hours after she had the interaction with vice president biden. there's an interesting -- there is something very unique about what's happening to senator harris. she to date is the person that polled the highest with the greatest success who has cratered and i don't think you can apply that to anyone else. even beto never hit numbers polling the way she did. so it is a really interesting question and it's not because of crowding, it's -- a lot of it is because of the campaign they chose to run. and they starts with the

candidate. >> trump even seemed scared of kamala in the beginning. >> i don't think she has a nickname. >> her first crowd was massive. >> 20,000 people. >> he was like, what? she's pretty. she's smart. it was a scary moment for him. >> warren/harris. >> rudy giuliani, the tangled web of connections to ukraine. that's coming up here on "up." [ song: johnny cash, "these are my people." ] ♪ these are my people ♪ ♪ these are the ones ♪ ♪ who will reach for the stars ♪

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this is "up" i'm david gura.

on webs the house judiciary committee will kick off the second phase of the impeachment hearings. that comes as rudy giuliani's role is being scrutinized. reports have surfaced highlighting giuliani's business dealings in ukraine and teaming up with government officials to uncover dirt on the bidens. giuliani has denied any problems. look at this web. lawyers in this piece. attorneys the president has relied on counsel from, officially or unofficially in the past. part of this deal that rudy giuliani was trying to broker with the ukrainian government. let's start there. what we've learned in recent days about the business angles he was working while the business dealings were taking

place. >> the same hour they had the duelling stories that told the same story not just on the political side but on the business and financial side. i talk to republicans on the hill every day. some of them speak to the president regularly and they've been telling him for months now that they need to dump rudy giuliani because he -- his role is making it harder for republicans to even defend the president's conduct throughout this entire impeachment saga. rudy giuliani says everything he did was at the president's behest as -- given that the president is his client. >> the president denying that in his conversation. >> right. but then all of these impeachment witnesses that have come forward like kurt volker and sondland have said the president directed us to work with rudy giuliani. that's something they've found difficult to counter. some have had the foresight to tell the president, look, rudy giuliani is bad news for you. he might end up getting you impeached and look where we are

right now. that's a message that republicans have been sending him for a while. they've relayed back to me and say, the president loves rudy. they are loyal to each other. they've been loyal to each other for so long. the president is never going to dump rudy. >> let me read the protest tags from the former prosecutor. i did not pursue a business opportunity in ukraine as they misrepresented. i could have helped them recover 7 billion in stolen money but i didn't. was paid zero. they attacked me because i've exposed their hypocrisy. here's a guy who works for free for a lot of people be it the president and the government of ukraine. >> first of all, that is what i wanted to say on this television show today. aside from the fact that rudy giuliani sounds crazier than a bag of scorpions on meth, we have to think about what he's doing here. the president is not paying rudy giuliani but he's trying to get all of these ukrainians ollie gashings and a venezuelan oil

man, all of these people are paying him, but the president doesn't pay rudy giuliani? the president is not a client. he is not a customer. he is the product. he is what is getting served. he is not the one having services performed for him. when you log on facebook and it's for free, you know that your data is getting sold. you know that advertisers are paying for your eye balls. you are not the customer, you are the product because it is for free. donald trump is not the customer of rudy giuliani, he is the product. he is what is getting served to the people who pay rudy giuliani. so, yeah, okay, i guess trump enjoys being carved up and served up to turkish billionaires and shady venezuelans and ukrainian oligarchs. trump has been selling his services to people like that his entire life so maybe that doesn't bother him, but for the american people knowing that the

president is the product should be pretty disturbing. >> philippe, last question to you. if we put rudy giuliani on the web, that the spider is coming, the venomous spider of the law is coming if i can expand the metaphor, obstruction of justice, money laundering, conspiracy to defraud the united states, serving as an unregistered agent of the foreign government, campaign finance violations, mail fraud, wire fraud. as they are turning themselves on rudy. >> the saddest part is that's a list that rudy giuliani of the '90s and ' 0s would have gone after someone. >> prosecutor. >> i lived in new york not only as his two terms and i voted for him two times. he's not that person from 20 years ago. he's not is a same person. something has snapped. whatever it is, when you look at him sitting back and the cigars, he's feeling very emboldened. he feels bullet proof.

that's probably because to some extent he is. he's emboldened because donald trump has told him do what you need to do and he is bullet proof because donald trump will say, don't worry about it, i've got your back. the real thing here is these others. no one voluntarily chooses to work with rudy giuliani if you don't have to. when you're talking about a sondland or anyone in the state department, they have to be told to do it. to this very day two months into this saga mike pompeo is getting away with one of the bigger crimes, which is knowing full well what rudy was doing and giving the word to his people when rudy calls, you help or even worse, i want you to call rudy. rudy in some really weird way is actually doing donald trump's bidding in kind of an approved way that others aren't. like in some way he is doing what he's told not with judgment good or bad, but i don't know what kind of legal peril he's in because he's being told by the

president to do it. >> the boldness no moorman any fested than in that pinky ring. president trump is fighting back in the courts. as charlie savage puts it in "the new york times", from a realist perspective the president is winning despite losing. losing is that ireland...1953? how did you know? mom...that was taken at the farm. it was in this small little village. in connemara? right! connemara it is. honestly, we went there- oh, oh look at that! look at that. - do that are degrading?ideo tapes, film reels, or photos, legacybox professionally converts them to dvds, thumb drive, or the cloud. legacybox is simple and safe, with over half a million satisfied customers. visit legacybox.com today, and get 40% off.

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this is "up" i'm david gura. the trump presidency has been mired in the courts. in case you missed the fleury of rulings to come down, let me click through a couple of them. the judge in oregon blocked president trump from restricting visas for immigrants with no health insurance. the ruling comes as a blow to the president's immigration policy. the department of justice expected to appeal that ruling and to ask for a stay. something we have seen a lot of, by the way. judge ordered former white house counsel don mcgahn to testify before the house. that got a temporary pause ahead of an appeal. the supreme court put a hold on a lower court ruling that the house oversight and reform committee has the authority to review essentially the same financial records as new york prosecutors. the expected to hear that case on december 13th. the president ease plan to slow roll his impeachment in congress seems to be working.

if the overriding goal is to keep information from coming out while his term and potential re-election hang in the balance, the trump legal strategy is succeeding despite all the adverse rulings. i'll start with you on trump jurisprudence. >> he's lost every major federal court ruling whether it comes to the don mcgahn case, ones involving his finance, tax returns and immigration policies. in many respects he's won every si single one because he's been able to use it as a delay tactic and prevent house democrats from meaningfulfully examining the evidence. i don't think house democrats are blameless here either. don mcgahn first defied the subpoena on may 21st. it took them until the end of july to file the suit. we just got the ruling last

week. it will take more weeks before the appeals process is resolved. how democrats have brought this upon themselves because they waited so long and once this appeals process is over, they won't be able to use any of it as part of the impeachment inquiry which is what democrats are dismayed over. >> they are putting forth aggressive legal theories that are backed by scanned pres dece. >> when you read some of this stuff, it's stupid and they don't care. that's the way trump has always done everything. he would just throw lawsuits at everybody. you're right, congressional democrats should have hit this harder earlier because this is how trump has been doing things his entire life and so it wasn't a surprise to anybody who has known his history in new york that he would try this avenue

which is legal bs at you all day. the other thing is, is the supreme court going to be a first quart party to this clear strategy? are they going to take up these cases and then give trump until the end of their tenure to rule or their session to rule on them which is yet another delay tactic for the trump administration. are they going to be part of this charade. >> it's docket filled with cases. >> not just the supreme court. it's the d.c. circuit court of appeals that will be hearing the don mcgahn case. speaker pelosi was so reluctant to begin impeachment and that's why they waited so long to file suit in the don mcgahn case.

democrats were failing to sustain momentum from the mueller investigation and failing to sort of increase the poll numbers in favor of impeachment. i think speaker pelosi was reading the tea leaves in that respect and that's why it took them so long to file suit. they weren't sure what they would do with this information. ? you ask anyone on wall street, a lawsuit is the only thing that donald trump understands. >> you brought an hourglass. >> minute glass. >> like sands through the minute glass. >> last word to you. >> the supreme court part is really the ball game. we don't know the end game here is. we have two constitutional crisis were watergate and recount in 2000. in both cases the court really put it towards the end. with nixon who had broken the law he saw the writing on the wall when they ruled against him

and he had to produce the tapes. gore v bush was the reckless political decision of the supreme court's decision. gore accepted it. he departmenidn't like it. we all grew up with the notion the court had spoken. if this comes down to something involving the supreme court and it were to go against him, will he respect it? i know there's a lot of will he respect losing the election. the courts are the one places he's not run rough shot yet. >> all right. thanks all of you for joining me this. joy reid and the impeachment hurdles facing the president as jerry nadler draws line in the

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that does it for me today. thank you very much for watching. am joy with royjoy reid starts . >> i full-tiinally called the president. i believe it was on the 9th of september. i can't find the records and they won't provide them to me. i believe i asked him an open ended question. what do you want from ukraine?

i keep hearing all these ideas and theories. what do you want? it was a very short, abrupt conversation. he was not in a good mood. he just said i want nothing. i want nothing. i want no quid pro quo. tell zelensky to do the right thing. >> good morning. welcome to am joy. while you were doubti idowning extra fixing of turkey the donald trump impeachment inquiry kept churning right along and there were even new developments. a big one being about that phone call that three amigos ambassador gordon sondland told congress he made to the president. that's become the center piece of trump's defense. the second of two phone calls between the ambassador and trump. there's the one on september 7th where trump allegedly told sondland