and theories. what do you want? it was a very short, abrupt conversation. he was not in a good mood. he just said i want nothing. i want nothing. i want no quid pro quo. tell zelensky to do the right thing. >> good morning. welcome to am joy. while you were doubti idowning extra fixing of turkey the donald trump impeachment inquiry kept churning right along and there were even new developments. a big one being about that phone call that three amigos ambassador gordon sondland told congress he made to the president. that's become the center piece of trump's defense. the second of two phone calls between the ambassador and trump. there's the one on september 7th where trump allegedly told sondland wahat he wanted and a

supposedly second call, two days later, on september 9th where sondland acted as if he hadn't heard it the first time, what do you want from ukraine and trump says i want nothing. no kquid pro quo. it was that second supposed call that trump was referring to hen he showed up on the lawn with the magic marker notes. other witness vs not been able to corroborate sondland's description of that second call or stlan even that it happened . the white house doesn't seem to have any records of a supposed call which is weird because white houses always have records of presidents calls. we learned by the time trump supposedly started shouting no quid pro quo into the phone with sondland the white house had been told that a whistle-blower had come forward with the now famous complaint about trump's

july attempt to bribe ukraine from an announcement of an investigation into the bidens and into trump's favorite russia saving conspiracy theory. trump suddenly spouting latin phrases might have been him trying to cover himself because he knew he had been caught. house judiciary democrats are getting ready to begin their portion of the impeachment hearings this wednesday and they are getting the white house one more chance to put up or shut up. last night judiciary chairman jerry nadler wrote a letter to the white house giving donald trump until friday deciding if he wants to call his own witnesses. this is on top of inviting the president himself to come and testify. as all this is going on donald trump seems to be trying to distance himself from the one person that every one says is at the center of everything, his personal attorney rudy giuliani. >> what was rudy giuliani doing

in ukraine on your behalf? >> well you have to ask that to rudy, but rudy, i don't know -- i don't know he was going to ukraine and i think he cancelled a trip. rudy has other clients other than me. >> you didn't -- >> joining me now is joyce vance and former u.s. attorney, mayy wiley and barbara mcquaid, nbc contributor and former u.s. attorney. thank you all for being here. joyce, i'll start with you first. let's go back to the second thing i talked about. this was the fact that donald trump has claimed that when he was talking in july to the president of ukraine that he never asked him for anything. they backed that up with claiming that on september 7th and september 9th he literally says the words no quid pro quo. he knew there was a whistle-blower complaint that busted him for trying to get

something for ukraine. do you think that information, that maybe there wasn't a second call at which trump says i departments want anything and that he knew that there had been a whistle-blower complaint. how devastating is that to his defense? >> so the problem trump really has here is that he never had had a defense. even if all of this happened add sondland testified and trump claimed in the follow up and he said no quid pro quo. i didn't want anything. that's not much of a defense. we know from the transcript of the july 25 call that he goes on, in fact, to request a quid pro quo, to make it clear that he needs a favor from zelensky. a lot of the time defendants come in in criminal cases and start out by telling you they didn't rob the bank but that doesn't mean they didn't do it. >> the other issue is that the one thing that's been consistent

in all the system we have seen is everybody, sondland, the former ambassador to ukraine, all of them, all say one thing is that rudy was in charge. we were told talk to rudy. we were told rudy is the guy. if rudy giuliani is in some trouble, not only because of what he potentially did for donald trump but what he might have been doing for himself. that he was hunting around for business for himself, do this other stuff and he might have separate issues regarding not registering as a foreign agent while he's hunting around. let's put up a couple of things he was looking for. he's worked for brazil, russia leaning ukrainian mayor, he's worked for heavy weight boxing champion turned ukrainian mayor. he's working all over the world drumming up money and he might have been trying to drum up money in ukraine. if he wasn't registering as a foreign agent, he might have

legal trouble. what might that do to donald trump if rudy has separate legal problems from him? >> it's a really good question, joy. it's a bit complicated since we don't know all the facts. one scenario is there are two separate stories meaning rudy giuliani is doing giuliani and not doing the right thing and that over laps an opportunity and time with things he's doing at the direction of trump and with the approval of donald trump. remember that on may 9th, i keep going back to this because it's so important but on may 9th, 2019 when giuliani says i'm going as trump's defense attorney to the ukraine to convince them to start up these investigations on joe biden, on hunter biden, on the or gigins the 2016 election interference that donald trump is not saying no, he's not my attorney. donald trump is actually kind of

defending him in the press as he's getting attacked. if he's over lapping, we don't know whether there's an intersection. i think it's important to keep them separate. one of the things that's clearly happening is the suggestion that maybe donald trump has done nothing wrong and it's all giuliani. the throwing giuliani under the bus problem. that weird week we had in which giuliani says i've got -- i can do some talking and his lawyer has him walk back that and say it's a joke. suggest that he may have something that he could share about all those conversations that he's supposedly having with not possibly donald trump. we have indications he was having conversations with pompeo around time all this was getting under way including the attacks on the ambassador. there's so much to unpack here. rudy giuliani is in trouble and i agree with joyce that donald

trump would be in trouble whether or not giuliani had these other legal issues. >> barbara, li want to go back o the call. i think sondland is a separate issue. i think he did the full neno brown, he told it all. he's like everybody knew about this. he named all the names of the people he said were in on the game, what was going on. when he was questioned by republicans he seemed to back off and defend trump despite what he said in the open. now it looks like the thing that he supposedly gave trump, the gift he supposedly gave him in that testimony was the second call. where supposedly trump makes it clear he didn't want anything, supposedly, according to him. there's no evidence of the call ever happening. there's no backup or support. the white house cannot provide a transcript or any evidence that the call even happened.

if, in fact, sondland wasn't honest about that, could he be in trouble? >> he could. he could be charged with perjury if he knew he was making false statement. he hedged a lot about what he remembered and he blamed the fact the state department had not provided him with records so he could verify the dates and times of his calls. what he said he was really hedging when he talked about that second call which i suppose could support a theory. it's because he knew it didn't happen. i think a couple points ta are important about that. number one whether the call, the no quid pro quo happened or not is irrelevant opinion it's a self-serving statement. in a court under the rule of evidence a statement by a person who says i didn't do the crime is not admissible. if they want to deany the crime they can do that but only live

in court. one important thing about this call if it was fabricated that is evidence of consciousness of guilt. i know i'm in big trouble here and the only way to get out of it is by making up some false story that will cover us. if sondland made this up, i think it's strong evidence that he knew the truth was really damaging to president trump. >> lying to congress is a crime. if he went in there and wasn't honest, couldn't he will charged with a crime. not that we necessarily trust that william barr's justice department would do anything about it. >> right. absolutely. he could if he committed perjury. you have to have very clear evidence and sondland almost set himself up to have an imperfect memory defense here saying he wasn't permitted access to his records. something that they need to remember is whatever william

barr's justice department is up to the statute of limitations runs for five years. they gambling on whether there might be a different justice department after elections in 2020 and whether or not people who deliberate ly surrounded trump with a cover up, whether they might not be finally be facing justice. >> could that include welcome bar, maya. william barr is named in that memo but donald trump consistently says in this memo, talk to bara and r and giuliani. >> it's really interesting. i've been a propoents of barr having earned an impeachment inquiry because there's so much smoke around him including the fact that back in april which is the time in which all of the ukraine stuff started percolating to the top including the removal of ambassador,

giuliani very actively getting engaged. it's the same time barr said he's been trying to wrap his arms around the 2016 election interference investigation and how it began. that tracks directly to the conspiracy theory potentially that we call crowd strike. he doesn't say it by name but this is all happening at the same time. he is making public statements and donald trump even makes a public statement saying will barr is really going to look into this question about 2016 election interference and how this whole thing got started. it will be highly, highly unusual. we have never seen a cabinet member in recent history, can't speak for 200 years ago, but not in modern time have we seen a cabinet member subject to it impeachment but investigation if more evidence came to light that suggested he may have been doing

something at the direction of trump. we should remember when senator kamala harris asked william barr directly about whether or not donald trump had discussions with anyone at the white house about opening investigations, he was very cagey in his answer and gave a lot of us pause. >> yeah. very quickly, i want to really quickly play the agreement by witnesses that giuliani was at the center of this. i'll come back in second. >> we worked with mr. giuliani because the president directed us to do so. president trump directed us to quote talk with rudy. >> mr. morrison told me the call could have been better and that president trump had suggested that president zelensky or his staff meet with mr. giuliani and attorney general william barr. >> barb, if you were wanting to flip one witness in this case against donald trump and you had the choice of sondland or rudy

giuliani, which one would you take? >> that's a tough call. they both have some credibility problems. giuliani also had perhaps the shield of attorney-client privilege although he's likely the one who really knows where the bodies are buried. in terms of getting just the truth for lead purposes, i might not use him as a witness but if i could get rudy giuliani to tell me the truth about what he knows about donald trump, i think that would be the golden ticket. >> apparently he's called trump and said he was kidding when he had insurance policy. kidding. very funny. >> hilarious. >> thank you very much. really appreciate it. coming up, we'll show you how america's mayor has been lining his pockets around the globe. that's next. g s pockets around the globe that's next. we made usaa insurance for members like martin.

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i have no financial interest in the ukraine. i'm not going to financially profit from anything that i know of in the ukraine. if they know of it, i would probably have to disclose it to my hopefully soon to be ex-wife because she's get half of it. i have no business interest in ukraine. it's untrue. it's false. >> despite his denials the new york times reports that rudy giuliani privately pursued hundreds thouf saof thousands os in business with officials while

trying to dig up dirt. after the attacks of september 11th, he parlayed his heroed status into lucrative consulting opportunities all over the world. it's those deals that have caught eye of federal prosecutors. david, let's talk about rudy. rudy gets famous. he gets called america's mayor and parlays it into a lot of cash, a lot of contracts. let's put up a few. brazilian state bordering the amazon jungle, russia leaning ukraine mayor. a turkish gold trader. he makes all this money as a security consultant and he was in talks to do the same thing

with ukraine. quote from washington post. president trump's personal attorney negotiated this deal for $200,000 during the same month he was working with the prosecutor to dig up dirt on joe biden. this was the corrupt prosecutor that wads going to be a new client. is this what rudy has been doing with his time since 9/11? >> even before he left the mayorship of new york. rudy giuliani had been setting himself up to be a consultant to all sorts of people who are not nice people, to be polite about it, around the world. it's been very lucrative for him. it's been fairly widely reported his firm has taken in over $100 million in fees. you look around and one of the things that's striking is who he represents and that list you gave which is far from complete but hits on the kinds of people he was representing. these are not people who are the

victims of oppression by a state or religious persecution. they are rich people who are gaming the system. he's been involved with a ceo who confessed to drug trafficking which puts him almost in the same category as donald trump who was very close to an international cocaine trafficker. >> it kind of sounds like paul manafort. that's the business the manafort firm was in as well. there's this story that trump was also trying to get business f to get them hired as the legal team as a russian oligarch. he seemed to be generating business for himself and his friends. >> there's an interesting group of people around him. they are people who are tied into trump, are trying to mike money off of defending and supporting trump and this goes back to rudy's basic style. remember he picked bernard to be

commissioner of new york and he went to prison because he was mobbed up. when rudy was told by every adviser put the emergency command center if new york is ever attacked in brooklyn, he insisted it be in the world trade center zone. why, because he had a little love nest he kept over there on the taxpayers dime. that's the kind he's been all the way through, including by the way as best i can tell from the public record, other than his deputy mayor he never met alone with anybody who was african-american during his years as mayor. >> i think those of us who are in african-american, losing the race well. he wasn't really friendly. there's a story here about his dealings with a muslim cleric. turkey has demanded this muslim cleric be sent back to them. we talked about him a lot on the show. he's a permanent u.s. resident

and lives in pennsylvania. apparently giuliani was trying to get trump to send him back. that's a plot that donald trump's national security adviser for a while was involved in as well. he seems to have been mixed up in that too. i think we lost david. i guess we don't have david johnson anymore. we'll go to a break and when we come back we'll show you how life is imitating art in a scary way. itating art in a scary way. does your broker offer more than just free trades? fidelity has zero commissions for online u.s. equity trades and etfs, plus zero minimums to open a brokerage account. with value like this, there are zero reasons to invest anywhere else. fidelity. there are zero reasons to invest anywhere else. for your worst sore throat pain, try vicks vapocool drops. it's not candy, it's powerful relief.

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once again i'm tardy for the party since i just started watching the man in the high castle. it's really good and super disturbing. it just premiere it's fourth and final season on amazon. it takes place in a parallel universe where the axis powers won world war ii and carved up america between nazi germany and japan after hitler drops an atomic bomb on america. some start to question this when they discover newsreel foot that challenges what they have been told. >> what is this? >> it's newsreel film. >> i see that.

>> it shows us winning the war. >> we didn't win the war. >> that's what they told us. >> jesus, i know what this is. >> what? >> the nen tmen in the high cas. >> who? >> he makes these anti-fascist movies. >> they look real. >> they look real because they are real. >> it may seem hard to imagine americans accepting false information from a foreign enemy. many believe that's what's happening right now in real life. only this time the enemy is russia which seens to have consumed one of great america's political parties whole. we'll take a closer look at what that can mean for all of us when we come back. n for all of us whn we come back

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even as they were accusing republicans of colluding with russians, the democrats were colluding with russians by funding the steel dossier that was based on p russian and ukrainian sources. they turn a blind eye to ukrainian meddling in our elections because the democrats were cooperating with that operation. >> russia's slow creep into our democracy has been on full display as congressional republicans reject the findings of our own intelligence community while pushing a completely debunked conspiracy

theory that began with russia. joining me is former senior director of the white house situation room and former chief of staff at the cia. thank you so much for coming back. let me play you fiona hill. he came to her testimony after two straight hearings after the guy you saw from the pulpit of congress repeated this conspiracy theory that was really ukraine that meddled in the election and not russia. she came ready for him in the third hearing and here she is. >> some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country and perhaps, somehow, for some reason, ukraine did. this is a fictional narrative that's been perpetrate bid the russian security services themselves. >> it appears that paul manafort believes this because it helps him. he got paid by ukraine. it appears rudy giuliani believers it because he's getting paid and donald trump thinks russia did not meddle in

the election. it was ukraine. it didn't just them. it's regular rank and file members of the republican party including that guy, who is ranking member on the national security committee in congress. >> right. devin nunes, no excuse in terms of his parroting russian views given the intimate knowledge he has of the u.s. intelligence community assessment and it's based on a set of facts and then based on exert analysis by people who have studied and trained in these areas of expertise. some of the other republicans, why are they parroting this view? i think it depends upon the republican you're talking to. i think there's a certain segment that realizes when this trump thing is over the republican party is going to be in some serious hurt for a period of time. traveling in the wilderness not in power. they have an agenda they are trying to push through. they are just swallowing hard and parroting whatever trump

wants them to say to get their agenda through. some are fearful of being primaried by this president. i think there are others who just buy into this convenient lie. what do they say, a lie halfway is around the world but the truth finishing tieing its shoes. >> we kind of teased this with men in high castle which i'm now watching. it's really good. the sort of base of it is the american people are caused to believe what a foreign enemy, the nazis told the american people about the world. they just come to believe that's the world. i totally think that could happen because it's not just at the top. you have the party that was the communist fighting, ussr fighting party, the reagan party. which now believes russia's view of the world that nato is an

enemy, not a friend. that it isn't worth spending money to support nato. that our allies don't matter. it's fine for us to be paired up with turkey and russia and these aut autocracies. the republicans seem to be okay with it. mike pompeo believes these theories. >> i wonder if he really believes them or if it's convenient to believe them in terms of what he's trying to accomplish. the other thing i would say is i don't think the republican party, today, has the numbers that it had four or five years ago. i think you've had a lot of people leaving the republican party because of trump. i think you've had some of it is aging off and the younger people seem to be skewing towards some of the more progressive views coming out of the democratic party. when you see polls showing such high percentages of republicans

believing these views, i think it's a higher percentage of a smaller number. >> go back a bit because talking during the break but is reason before trump started parroting russian talking points. he believes everything they believe. i can recall during the obama era republicans saying that v vladmir putin was a stronger leader than obama. when you do the through line to this belief, you think about the fact that russia is without mercy killing muslims. they are extremely hard on lgbt people and their public lives making it so they cannot have a public life. they are extremely right wing in a way if you read the christian world view it sort of places slau russia as the last read out for white christians. does it come down to the fact they have this larger racial and sociopolitical and demographic

world view that right wingers prefer? >> i think the republican party has always had or in modern history has always had an element of the authoritarian streak and this what we would have to call alt-right or fringe right perspective. that group has been empowered by trump and i think it has driven away more sensible republicans either into independent or even democratic party today. >> you have stephen miller who gets outed for having sent around and shared white national talking points. he's fine. his job is secure. >> if this was the bush administration he would have been out in ten seconds. >> either bush. neither would have tolerated it. i want to play you lindsey graham. people see him as the biggest turn around if you talk to people from south carolina who know politics say he's always been this guy. he didn't notice it because he

was hitched onto beater guy. once the better guy was gone he grafted onto whoever is in power. here he is saying he's willing to do what poor mr. zelensky, the needy president of ukraine who is desperate, wouldn't do it but he was willing. here he is saying he will investigate the bidens. >> my conscious is clear. i love joe biden as a person. he is a really decent man. he's had a lot of tragedy in his life but i have a conscious very clear right now and i have a duty. if the house is going to shut it down, the senate will pick it up. i didn't start this. we're not going to live in a world where just donald trump and his family gets looked at. we're going to live in a world where everybody gets looked at if there's a question reasonably to be asked. >> even just setting aside the open corruption of half of donald trump's family working in the white house and making money

on the side. if this was a foreign country and a government official in a foreign country was doing what this man is doing, which is to say he's willing to now meddle in the election, do what a foreign government wouldn't do to hurt a fellow american on behalf of theory. what would you say about that official as a cia guy? >> you would wonder what somebody has on that person. you would wonder what kind of compromise was being held over their head. you write about lindsey graham, god bless him. people of south carolina clearly keep voting him into office. he's a man -- i think back to the warner brothers cartoon where you had the big bulldog and the little yappy dog. he's the little yappy dog that will latch onto the big bully. he had that with john mccain. i don't want to impugn john mccain.

he had a little reputation of being a bit of a bully atlatche bully in town and that's donald trump. >> what is the danger of the combination of what we're seeing in the republican party now? they have power. only about 29% of american adults are republican. is that beholden to the world view of an adversary and they are that open to corruption. what we have seen as financial corruption in their own government meaning donald trump can use his position to get foreign governments to pay him. stay in my hotels and they are fine with that, what does that do to a government? >> we run the risk of having in this divided government we have. we have this republican majority in the senate that appears ready to continue to back donald trump. what i'd like to believe is that in our democratic system people

will see, it will be transparent what's happening and perhaps when we go to the polls in 2020, american values will be reenforced and that kind of behavior will be punished. >> have you seen a non-auth non-authoritarian government where the daughter and son-in-law of the leader worked in the white house and are still allowed to have side businesses where that goes on unchecked. that's what donald trump's family is doing. >> very unusual. in our american history, we've had relatives of the president on the federal payroll but this being able to continue to do businesses that's not been part of our american tradition in modern history. american presidents and their families usually divorce themselves from any appearance that they would be taking advantage of their position to make money. >> would it be unusual for another government for the daughter to get foreign patents

from china? >> i'm going to say yeah. that would be unusual. i think it's a very strange case. very unusual. how can one do that and then be -- how can somebody like that do that kind of behavior and then have us not question her father being able to make decisions against china that we would believe are credible. >> in your experience just looking at this, setting aside this is the united states, if a government is pursuing, investigations of fellow citizens, particularly political rivals that does set off the clock. you're saying this person may run against me and this person will be in jail. that actually happened in ukraine where the woman was elected president was put in jail. this investigating a political

rival is fairly common in an autocracy. >> very unusual in america. we vote somebody out of office. we don't charge them and throw them in jail. i think that was part of the calculus gerald ford took with n nixon. they were ready to indict and try and he decided that was not appropriate for our american tradition that the man had suffered enough. it will be interesting to see how that plays out if and when donald trump levaves office. >> it's not just up to whoever becomes the new attorney general and it would be up to state of new york which has a lot of eyes on donald trump. it's always great talking with you. >> thank you. we have more after the break. tu we have more after the break that's a zzzquil pure zzzs sleep. our liquid has a unique botanical blend, while an optimal melatonin level means no next-day grogginess. zzzquil pure zzzs. naturally superior sleep.

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i mean, i think that it's obvious, people cannot only see the emotion on your face but hear it in your voice when you talk about this, lee. why? >> i care. that's it. >> i'm not trying to laugh at his tears, but wow, he really cried. the mere thought of an elizabeth warren presidency is bringing

billionaires to literal tears. and if you look at the quickly changing landscape of the democratic primary, at least in the polls, it feels like there's almost this primal fear of a progressive democrat clinching the party's presidential nomination, and that seems to be driving the quest for a moderate alternative, to point where billionaire michael bloomberg and former massachusetts governor deval patrick, who after his governorship went to work for bain capital -- remember them, mitt romney's plutocratic corporation? they both jumped into the 2020 race this month, as if they were saying, if biden can't get it done, we're just going to do it ourselves. warren's wealth tax has seemed to freak out billionaires and even some moderate democrats, and that could explain warren's drop in several state and nationwide polls over the last couple of weeks. warren and bernie sanders have been besieged by ads, particularly in iowa, that propose that ideas that are too progressive, like the wealth tax or free public college, just go too far and will turn off the average voter. though it's not clear who that average voter is supposed to be,

though you could probably guess. and those ads and the critiques by bloomberg and biden and others seem to be having an effect. but there is this disconnect here that's hard to explain, because the polls and this zeitgeist that explains warren's polling drop don't really match. for example, a new poll from survey monkey and "the new york times" shows that the majority of americans actually agree with many of warren's core ideas. warren's proposed wealth tax has the majority support of almost every group -- democrats, independents, and even republicans. and medicare for all, which both warren and sanders support, remains popular with democrats. the same poll this week shows a whopping 11% -- 81% of democra support medicare for all. so what's going on? karine jean-pierre, author of "moving forward," maria teresa kumar, and tara dowdell of the tara dowdell group and ron insana of cnbc, thank you all for being here. usually i go ladies first, but

poor ron, the only dude. >> what's the show where there's only one guy on the panel and they are somewhere else? >> we like the world being this way. we think the world -- this should be the world right here. take a look at this. >> i understand it. >> we love it. but, so, ron, my friend, let's go back and explain a little bit, because i feel like i'm glad i have you here because there does seem to be this collective complete freak-out over elizabeth warren, even as she's sort of going down in the polls, it feels like the freak-out is driving her down, not necessarily the policies, because democrats like the policies that she's putting forward, but there does -- there seems to be a reaction to the way that the superrich have reacted to her, which has been to completely lose their minds. what do you make of it. >> well, up to pint. look, i've known lee cooperman for 30 years. when he was a lead strategist at goldman sachs, i knew him as a hedge fund manager. to be clear and transparent, i invested with him at one juncture in his career, so i've known him well over his years and he's a good guy. he's not a bad guy, not a villain by any stretch of the imagination, and i do think that as he said, he's in favor of a

progressive tax system. i do think that there's a concern among those who understand economics that if you go too far with a certain set of principles, as egalitarian as they might appear on the surface, there could be unintended consequences that weaken the economy and the underpinnings of the incentive system that allows big companies to be created and thrive. do you look at bill gates and say he's a bad guy when he gave $35 billion away this year? microsoft shares went up and actually reimbursed him for that entire $35 billion just by virtue of going up. do you live without a microsoft product? do you live without an apple product? do you live without amazon prime? these guys have built businesses, and some women as well, and they've become billionaires as a consequence. so they have added value for the economy. they have created jobs in many instances. and so, the vilification i think is what bothers people more than necessarily the policies on their face. >> well, you know, it's funny, because that sounds a lot like the whining during the obama administration. he invited us to state dinners

and he blamed us for crashing the economy, which we did, but he blamed! like, there feels to be like these people who become billionaires want praise, right, for being rich. they seem to want -- they want to be bigged up for being really, really rich. if you think about -- >> i think you have to be selective about that characterization because there are some of those, and there are others who by virtue of having created a company became billionaires and now we live with their products every day. and look, i've known bill gates for a long time. i don't think he walks around wanting people to admire him because he's rich. he's done an extraordinary amount of work on curing mosquito-born illnesses in africa and working on aids and things like that. there are billionaires who some enjoy being just plain rich and others who have just built great businesses and would probably rather be known for other things. having said that, that's not to say that the tax code is equitable. i'd roll back the entire trump tax cut program and restructure it in a way to help middle-income and lower-income people.

a billionaire tax itself can be easily evaded and ultimately, i think if many or some billionaires thought that elizabeth warren was going to be president, they'd simply move. so, i think there's a certain bit of impracticality as well. >> yeah. one second, then i'll let everybody else in, because one question i would say is, giving away money -- and to play the role here, rich people give away money and get a taren deduction for it and it's a good substitute for being taxed at a level that they were even taxed during the eisenhower era or even the reagan era when he slashed taxes. but the level of income inequality is so huge that giving away money, that's fine. they have lots of money to give away, they get a tax break for it, but that doesn't change the fact that amazon paid zero taxes, zero. is what you're saying that if you tax them more, 2 cents on every $1 billion, suddenly they wouldn't give money away? they'd probably keep giving away money. >> you can't conflate the corporate tax, which is amazon, and what jeff bezos is world on his own as a consequence of

amazon's stock, which is his form of compensation going up -- >> like $100 billion. >> yeah, $135 billion. here's the deal, if you rolled back the corporate tax cuts that president trump passed, which gave corporations an enormous tax windfall last year -- corporate profits were up 26% on average, 13 percentage points of that were tax related. now, we had a stated rate of 35%, that no corporation ever paid. i'd roll that back to 27%, restore the state and local income tax deductions and do things that would help individuals. taxing billionaires may not be a big enough pool to bring money back to the government. corporations are now paying the smaller share of federal revenues in history. there's i think a much bigger pot of money at the corporate level than there is at the individual level. >> okay. let me let ladies in, because i have a lot of heads shaking. everybody's heads are shaking. >> i know, i know. >> let's let everybody jump in.

maria teresa kumar. >> to give you an idea of how wealthy bill gates is, is that bill gates decided he was going to go ahead and give away all his money. and since then, he's given away -- when he started, he was worth $91 billion. he's now given away $50 billion and today is worth $110 billion. he can't give it away fast enough. so, i think that our challenge is, it's not that we're angry at the rich and it's not that we do not appreciate how they pay it forward. i think that what bill gates has been doing, he's almost eradicated malaria, he's on his way of actually helping eradicate polio. he has given service. the challenge, though, is when we also recognize that we have the greatest disparity of income between the haves and have-nots since over 100 years ago. this is the greatest -- >> it's the gilded age. >> it's the gilded age. what happened during the guilded age is the government decided to be fdr democrats. they would build a solid middle class to ensure everybody thrives. when individuals say, if i'm a billionaire and i don't like the

tax codes and i'm going to basically pack my bags and go elsewhere, where? where are you going to go? because you have right now a safe society where government contributes, where you have an educated class that you can actually go ahead and hire. you have a healthy class. but that disparity is growing. and if you decided you're going to go to europe, guess what, they'll tax you even more. >> tax you higher. >> so where are you going to go? and this idea that people said, you know, i was able to pull myself up from the bootstraps and did it myself -- the reason that we have a mark zuckerberg is because mark zuckerberg lived in the right zip code when he was young. he didn't go to bed with a hungry belly. he was able to go to school and think big thoughts. that's what we want every kid in america to go to, make sure they can think big thoughts. >> the book you wrote "moving forward," ckarine, is about the path you had to climb to get what you wanted. >> exactly. >> it is not the direct sort of path that a mark zuckerberg can take and i guess that's the point people are trying to make. >> and the system is rigged. it's rigged in a racially way. it is rigged if you are poor. and it is not easy to pull

yourself up from the bootstraps. it's just not created like that for people like myself and people who look like me, who grew up the way that i did. so, you know, there's the language that i was hearing is that we're like we're angry at the rich. we're not angry at the rich. all we're saying is please pay your fair share. that's it. it's as simple as that. when you think about the wealth tax, which i've talked on your show before about it, we're saying that, what warren is saying is that if you have $50 million worth of asset -- that's it, of asset -- you should pay your fair share. and what would happen? it gives back to health care. it gives in to education, the climate. i mean, that is what we're talking about. >> can i just say one brief thing? when people say, well, you know, we don't believe in student loans. young people are dealing with $1 trillion in debt. do you think they can go ahead and now buy a house? >> right. >> the sternlts of that that spill oefer -- >> let me let tara in, because tara, you're running a business.

and i think it's interesting that one of the ways that i think people argue against what elizabeth warren and progressive democrats want to do is they say that it will kill, you know, business, the business climate in the united states. what do you make of that? firstly, tell me what you make of that, and then i want to play you the political strategist. so talk about that and then i'll play you warren's political ad and then i want to know if it's good politics to go at it this way. go ahead. >> first and foremost, small businesses create most of the jobs in this country and newer businesses create more jobs. even large corporations, if they've been around over a certain period of times, even in the best economy, large corporations shed jobs. it's just the way the economics of it works. so, most of your growth comes from the businesses that are microbusinesses and small businesses. that's where the job creation comes in this country. one point that doesn't get explored enough, though, and i can tell you this as a small business owner who's in a growth phase, is that typically what happens is, once -- and i say

this, the system, i agree, the system is rigged -- what happens is, when companies make a certain amount of money, they then lobby the government in order to change the barrier of entry into any industry. that's why so many companies were going -- that's why net neutrality became such a big issue, because it's about changing the barriers of entry. and i will tell you, many companies have successfully done so and locked out small businesses. and then you have lending, access to capital remains one of the biggest impediments to small business growth in this country. and so -- and if you're a black woman or a woman, it's even -- it's far worse in terms of the ability to borrow money to grow your business. so, these are things that going beyond the wealth tax that a lot of the democratic candidates are talking about, elizabeth warren and others as well, that isn't getting enough attention, but i think it's an important part of the conversation that i wanted to make sure that we injected. >> yeah. and happy small business

saturday to you, by the way, tara dowdell. >> thank you. >> ron, let me let you in on that, because we are in an economy where a lot of people have jobs, but the job numbers are plussed up because people have a second job driving lyft, a third job driving uber, and people are making money in the gig economy. i just was in the supermarket the other day and there were no humans. i mean, to make andrew yang's point, all there are are automated machines where you check your own groceries out and like two people have jobs in the grocery store, so -- >> well, that's a little extreme. two kiosks in the grocery store and there are people. but look, some of these numbers -- some of these labor numbers are not being i think accurately quoted. we are at full employment. the unemployment rate is 3.6%. by all measures -- >> but it's full plus because people have three jobs! >> well, i'm not sure that that's entirely an accurate description of what's going on in the economy. >> that's what every lyft driver i talk to say. this is their third job. >> you know i do this for a living, right? >> i do! >> so, i am not sure -- well, you can get xs operate e exaspe.

i don't disagree with what's being said, but i think there are other remedies. you talk about student debt. student debt reform should be a major priority. when you look at what's charged for a student loan, 10% in a 2% world -- when i was in college, i paid 7% when interest rates were 20%. there should be debt renegotiation for sure. they should be able to refinance. there should be some principal forgiveness. we should work on that -- >> hold on a second. i'm not going to let you get off student debt because i kind of do this for a living, too. when i went to college, you know -- and i'm not going to say when i graduated, but i graduated in the '90s -- >> i graduated in the '80s. >> it was $22,000 a year. our children, our youngest is in college now. it's $64,000 a year. >> wow. it's more than that. >> you know, we're blessed to be able to help our child go to college. >> yes. >> but if you're talking about student debt, it's not about renegotiating the interest rate people are paying. why in the world is a college education three times what i paid for it? what about the idea of making

people be able to just go to college -- i mean, in germany, they get to go to college for free! >> and i don't disagree with any of that. >> we're as smart as they are. >> i think in the u.s. there should be a technological solution. if you look at the first two years of general education courses in college, there's no reason why those can't be done online. people can argue about the social consequences of maybe separating kids in the first two years, but that cost should come down, then maybe you go to college for your major, where it might be a little more expensive. but depends on which state you live in, too. if you go to california, the state system there is $17,000 a year. in texas, it's $10,000. the suny system in new york is considerably cheaper. we're talking -- when we're talking about $65,000 to $75,000 a year, you're talking about private education, not public education. so i think we have to make that distinction as well. >> it's true, but people want the option -- people need the option. go ahead, jump in. >> something to keep in mind. so, my assistant a couple years ago went to the university of delaware, a public university. she wanted a degree -- a kindergarten teacher. she couldn't afford it because she was strapped with $100,000

debt. that's for doing social sciences. i think the challenge when we start saying that we even want to do a two-year college -- the socialization that happens is really real. the idea that all of a sudden you go to harvard and you are socializing and you're networked where a majority of the jobs in the future will be based on who you know is part of it, is not small. and what you do by you're creating that, elevating that solution, you're exacerbating the problem. i think the biggest challenge is that we want to recognize that education is a public good. we want to recognize that it's a public good because it encourages you to actually be part of a solid middle class, and that solid middle class actually allows the growth that we experience in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s in this country that allowed for us to take advantage of the new technologies that we have today. if we separate our communities the way, you know, was suggested, we are instead moving forward, we're actually moving backwards while the rest of the world is ensuring that they have a highly educated class. >> your mom is in nursing, right? >> yes. >> think about the fact that

right now, we have a shortage both of nurses and doctors in the united states -- >> exactly. >> and i'm going to talk to tara because her had success a doctor. part of the challenge is american kids can't afford to become a doctor anymore. it costs $500,000. how can you afford to do that if you're an average american kid or even a nurse? it's expensive. now you go into the hospital and a lot of the nurses are from overseas, but we don't want immigrants, but that's all the nurses. >> exactly right. my mom was an lpn nurse. i teach at columbia university and i have students who are -- they're paying, because i went to columbia as well -- twice as much as i did, similar to what you're talking about with your children. it's unaffordable! i asked them, how do you pay the $50,000 that you have to pay? they said, loans. we just take out loans. we're talking about unemployment, the rate that it is right now. but if you think -- you talk to a police officer, more than one job. you talk to a firefighter, more than one job. you talk to a teacher, they have more than one job. you talk to a nurse, they have more than one job. everyday people cannot afford --

they can't afford to even send their kids to school because they live in an area, maybe the school is not that great. they have to send their -- >> well, they're -- >> they have so much more to do that is twice as much as when we were younger and growing up. >> and the jobs that young people would normally have, tara, adults have them. like, you have people feeding a family of four on the mcdonald's job that when i was in high school, we used to have. >> well, exactly. the federal minimum wage is still $7.25. it has not gone up for the last decade. worker productivity, though, has gone up, so workers should be getting a raise because they should be rewarded for their increases in productivity. as a small business owner, i am limited in terms of how much i can do, but i cover 100% of the health care premium for the people that work for me. and you know what, the people that work with me stay with me

longer than many young people that work at much bigger companies that give much bigger salaries because i take care of them. but it is challenging for me to do that. but you know, part of why i was able to do that was because of the affordable care act, which gave me a tax credit as a small business owner employing 25 employees or fewer, because i was allowed to have employees stay on their parents' plan until they're 26. these are the things that have allowed me to grow and employ more people and meet the demand and grow as a business. so, i think that we need to look at these things very differently. what the core approach of the republican party in this country is to believe that we have a rich people aren't rich enough problem. we don't have a rich people are not rich enough problem in this country. what we have is a middle class that can't access, that can't climb, a working poor people that can't climb because income inequality has been the same in this country.

it's basically since you all mentioned it earlier -- this is the highest record since the census has been recorded in this country and that has real impact on people's lives. and guess what, if people pay a little bit more, they will still be rich. and that's great! >> still be rich. >> there's one thing i want to point out. we have 7 million open jobs in the united states and 6 million unemployed people. the biggest public policy failure we have right now is for those people who have been left behind, there has not been adequate retraining to open the door to them to go into cybersecurity jobs where there are 300,000 open jobs that pay $95,000 a year. we have a shortage of truckers that pay $100,000 a year, a shortage of welders, pays $100,000 a year. now, the president's made promises about doing things like restoring the coal mining business. never going to happen. not going to happen. those people should be redirecting their energies to other places. but we have a shortage of labor, and we also have a relatively decent surplus of high-paying

middle-class jobs that are going unfilled, in part because of the skills gap and the lack of training, and in part because we have constrictive immigration policies that are not allowing the economy to grow. so, i think we can come at this from a lot of different angles, but there are jobs available that do require retraining, and that is a massive public policy failure that's been going on for decades in this country. >> but imagine if we -- >> let me ask you this question. go ahead, tara. >> i was going to say, this is what frustrates me, right? because people are talking about training truck drivers the to write code, right? >> no, no, i'm not trying to make them autonomous vehicles -- >> i'm just saying, that is the wrong way to approach it. we have people in this country who have -- we all call them a side hustle, right? imagine if we gave all the funding that goes, right, all of the tax credits, the different breaks that go to the big corporations, imagine if we targeted those to people who are in industries that are being automated out of those industries. imagine if we take those resources and give them to people to start their own businesses, and that's what we need to do. we need to be subsidizing the

businesses that actually create the jobs! >> can i ask you a really quick question for tara and then -- >> and working poor people have side hustles. if we subsidize that, imagine the difference. >> absolutely. and i think what people forget is if you have insurance from your job, somebody like tara, who you're paying the insurance and then your employees pay a portion of the premium -- >> no, i cover 100%, but that's because of the affordable care act. >> you cover 100%. okay. so, let's just say that if you didn't have to do that, if there was health care like they have in great britain, in sweden and in most of europe, and you were not covering that, would that free up more money for you to hire more people and pay them more? >> absolutely, 100%. >> it would. and ron, how would that hurt the economy, if, in fact, we had the same kind of health care that all over europe, where they have modern economies -- companies don't have to pay those premiums? i have health insurance from nbc, which means nbc pays most of the premium and i pay a part of it. if i didn't pay that premium, my

check would be bigger by the amount that's now being taken out. and my company would have that money free to pay me more money. how on earth would that be bad? >> well, you'll still pay a medium prepamium if there's medicare for all. it wouldn't be free in the sense that you would replace that deduction that you pay for a portion of your premium with a tax -- >> it would be less. >> it may be less. we don't know. and i think you have to phase it in because there are a lot of companies, and particularly unions, that have fought for health care for their workers as a benefit of being employed, and there is another unintended consequence here -- and listen, i haven't made up my mind about medicare for all and affordable care act, which i think is great and the public option is necessary. but having said that, when you look at trying to transition into medicare for all, you also have to remember that there are 4 million people employed in the health insurance industry, and you have to make provisions for what you're going to do with those people if you're going to eliminate private insurance altogether. so, i think there needs to be a lot more discussion and a lot

more thought about this than just saying, we're going to make a very simple switch, turn one thing off and one thing on, and have it work flawlessly. i don't think that's the way the process would work. >> our producer just said in my ear that the medicare tax is 2.9%, which i think is less than the deduction that i know i'm paying out. >> depends where you work, yeah. >> yeah. it's -- you're right. the medicare tax is pretty small. it's much smaller than the tax you pay to the federal government. but i wanted to just come back to the politics for a second for warren. she's faced a ton of money against her. if you look at how much each of these candidates are spending in terms of media, warren is like down, you know, in like fourth place. she's outspent significantly by tom steyer, michael bloomberg, obviously donald trump. pete buttigieg is spending about what she's spending, but the ads are very targeted against things like medicare for all, against free college, saying you don't want to let rich kids go to college for free and that kind of thing. it does seem to be working. how do you explain -- because her ideas, if you go to the polling on it, medicare for all, democrats like it.

you know, 81% of democrats like it. >> at least they did. >> the wealth tax popular. why do you think she's suffering at the polls? >> because i think of what you just laid out. when she started to surge, that's when everybody started to freak out, right? and that's where money started going directly to her to hurt her, to try to hurt her and to try to slow down that surge. and you're seeing it in polling. look, i think that elizabeth warren has done a really good job on all of her policies. i think the medicare for all -- and even with bernie, they need to do a little bit better job explaining it. >> explaining, yeah. >> because there are benefits. >> yeah. >> there are benefits, but people are just not seeing that. and i think that is one of the biggest things of messaging around it -- >> and you say you don't want the rich kid to get a free college education, why not? the reason that social security was able to thrive and pass is because -- >> it was universal. >> it was universal. if it's not universal, it's not there for the poor. >> exactly. >> there are other candidates running. we know that, audience. we're going to talk about kamala harris and julian castro and cory and everybody else

tomorrow. this was just the discussion for today. don't ask me, don't nobody ask me -- >> social security and medicare for wealthy people right away. i would do that tomorrow. absolutely. >> starting anew. ron is starting this already. karine jean-pierre, maria teresa kumar, ron, that was a great discussion for all. don't at me. i'm telling you, don't at me. this week, mayor pete called a journalist who accused him of being a, quote, lying mfer! we're going to talk to that very journalist next. we're going to talk to that very journalist next. i'm finding it hard to stay on top of things a faster laptop could help. plus, tech support to stay worry free. worry free...boom boom! get free next business day shipping or ...1 hour in-store pick up shopping season solved at office depot officemax

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[ electrical buzzing ] [ dramatic music ]

ahhhh! -ahhhh! elliott? elliott. you came back!

somebody who let's say strongly disapproved of comments that i made years ago that somebody had dug up. and so, you know, sometimes we forget, i think especially as we're consuming media, that this is a conversation among human beings. and so, i realize that i was just calling. i thought it was a very healthy conversation. and yes, he is right when he said my opinion, when he says that we've got to look at the structural factors that drive different racial outcomes in our country. >> mayor pete -- sorry about that -- of south bend, mayor and presidential candidate pete buttigieg probably didn't expect to be called a lying mfer this week in a story that ended up trending nationwide, but that's what happened after michael harriet of "the root" penned

scathing response to comments pete buttigieg made in 2011 about black children and educati education. in a roundtable interview with no people of color present, buttigieg opined that kids in minority neighborhoods haven't seen the education system work and lack role models who can personally testify to the value of education. harriet wrote that buttigieg knowingly failed to address the structural and institutional factors which create education inequality. instead placing the blame on the black community itself, the kind of paul ryanish culture critique. buttigieg to his credit called harriet to have a discussion, but the article landed right in the middle of a larger problem for the young mayor, who's become a media favorite and boasts support from older voters in iowa but has struggled to gain votes from black voters. with that, it's hard to become the democratic nominee. michael harriet is with me, senior writer at "the root." good to have you on the show. welcome. let's talk about the piece that you wrote that went everywhere.

i got texted by about 400 people. here's a little piece of it. and you said, "this is why institutional inequality persists, not because of white hoods and racial slurs, it's because this insidious double talk erases the problem by camouflaging it, because it's painted in a problem of black leather valley and not white apathy. pete buttigieg is standing over a dying man, holding the oxygen machine in his hand and telling everyone, nah, he doesn't need cpr, he's just holding his breath. negligent homicide is still homicide." it was a scathing article. what happened when the mayor called you? >> well, so, some of his surrogates reached out to me and asked if i was open to having a conversation. i said yes. and he called me. first thing he said was, well, this is the first time i've ever been called a lying mfer, so that, you know, set the tone for the conversation, which mostly consisted of kind of, to be honest, me ranting and him trying to fit a word in in

explaining. but i think we came to a conclusion that, you know, we can't discuss these kinds of disparities without mentioning racism and institutional inequality, because to be honest, everyone in this race, and especially someone as educated as pete buttigieg, knows why these problems exist. and so, the fear of black voters is that when they get into these annals of power and they get into these rooms and they'll start talking about fixing the education problem in america, this is what will happen. they'll say, well, you know, they need some role models, or maybe they just need some, you know, some after-school programs, when we know it's a problem of institutional inequality that fits into the history of racism in america. >> let me read you what the sort of, you know, kind of rebuttal to that was for john mcwharter.

he wrote for "the atlantic," called it the woke attack on pete buttigieg. harriot is assuming that pete buttigieg must have meant that the lack of role models is due to some pathology among black people, when actually, almost anyone who publicly talks of role models this way intends that it is due to larger societal factors." what do you make of that critique of what you wrote? >> well, first of all, the reason i called it a lie is because there are no lack of role models in black communities. black women are the most educated group of individuals in america, right? so, in black communities, i would assume that there are black women present who are raising these kids. and so, how could there be a lack of role models? and if you talk to anyone, any black child who grew up in these communities, they'll tell you they've seen -- first of all, if they go to school, they have teachers, and there are people in black communities, there are preachers, there are people who live in black communities because, unlike white communities, black communities

aren't as homogenous. there's teachers who live next to garbage men, who live next door to people who work at mcdonald's, because that is the way redlining worked for most of the history of this country. so first of all, that's a lie. i mean, i don't know what else to call it. and the other thing is, right, when we attack these problems, right -- and if you even mention the lack of role models before you get to the 54 other things that precede that, that are more important than lack of role models -- we talk about school funding. we know that poor white -- poor white children get $1,500 on average per student more than poor black students, right, than the average black student. so, we know that black schools are underfunded. we know that the way that schools are funded in america is based on community wealth, which is insane to me, right? >> yes. >> so, to not even address these factors and talk about role

models, even if you think that there is a little truth to that, is in and of itself a malpractice, if not an outright lie. >> i guess when i saw the clip of him, the thing i thought about was that when he said it, i believe that the president of the united states was a black man named barack obama. i mean, every black child on earth had a role model, excuse me, literally sitting in the white house at the time. >> right. we've seen -- >> go on. >> no, i was saying -- you first. >> we've seen the biggest black role model in america, which is barack obama. so, that narrative couldn't exist. that was in 2011 when pete buttigieg made these comments, so barack obama -- he was president then. so i don't understand where that came from. >> what do you make of the struggles that pete buttigieg -- he's -- he really does have a media, you know, he's captured the attention of the media. he's been able to capture, you know, i think for a lot of -- i was reading a piece that sort of

likened him to being like an older person's perfect young person, right? like your grandmother's like, why can't young people be like pete, you know? so he's got kind of that older white voter in hand. what do you make of the fact that he hasn't been able to break through with african-american voters? >> well, i think this is the problem that we see almost every election cycle, right? there are people and candidates who come from places in america where they don't have to court the black vote. they don't have to appeal to black citizens. they don't have to appeal to black voters, and they can still get elected into the positions, as mayor of south bend or to senator. but when they have to appeal to a wider demographic, they don't know how to speak to black voters. and sometimes, black voters can see that. we can sense that. and what we worry about is that this thing that pete buttigieg was seen doing on camera in 2011 is what will happen to our

candidates, right, that they'll get power -- because i mean, we know, as much as black people vote for the democratic party, when they get into power, they don't reciprocate the things that they say that they're going to do all the times they're campaigning. they're going to barber shops and churches and say, hey, we're going to, you know, work for you and we're going to outlaw racism and we're going to, you know, give every black family an extra $500 in their check, then they get into office and they don't do anything, right? and so, black voters, first of all, are becoming -- they're becoming more savvy. and then black candidates have to know how to talk to and about black issues. >> yeah. michael harriot, a terrific writer at "the root." everybody should be following you on twitter. great having you on. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you. coming up, we will show you how republicans favor a twice-divorced, foul-mouth

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we haven't even heard republicans expressing really concern over what came out of the past couple of weeks' hearings. did you recognize your former republican colleagues this past couple of weeks? >> well, i think my former colleagues are in a situation where they understand their base pressure. the base has not yet bolted from the president, and i think that's why they're standing with the president for the moment, but there's no question, having spoken to many of them privately, they are absolutely disgusted and exhausted by the president's behavior. i think they'd like to step out, but they just can't because of their base at the moment. >> ah, courage. two weeks of damning public testimony showcasing donald trump's effort to pressure a foreign power for political gain haven't swayed republican lawmakers. it's becoming clear that when trump boasted he could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot someone and not lose a single fan, he was probably right, especially when it comes

to congressional republicans. joining us to discuss is pulitzer prize-winning columnist leonard pitts of the "miami herald," who was my columnist goals every time being a columnist. true fact. such a great columnist. >> thank you. >> let's talk about this. there's a poll out that -- and this might explain why republicans are so cowardly when it comes to the president. republicans are asked, who is a better president, donald trump or abraham lincoln? they're the only group, only republicans said trump is a better president than lincoln. what do you make of that? >> is there a brick wall i can bang my head against a few times? i think i need a brick wall before i answer. i haven't heard of that poll, but it sort of speaks further to the delusionary aspect of the republican party right now. this is not a party. this is a cult. and it has been a cult for a long time. and it wasn't just this abraham lincoln quote. a week or so ago rick perry said trump was the chosen one, and he wasn't even the first one to say that. >> he wasn't. >> it's amazing.

>> and if you look at the public religion research institute numbers, you know, it snlz isn't just a prejorritive that say it's a cult. the base is solidly among the white evangelicals that almost worship him and say he's the chosen one of god. >> when i say that, i mean -- i'm not being rhetorical. i mean that literally, that there is a very cultlike aspect to what we're seeing going on with trump, particularly in the aspect of trump is he who must not be questioned. and all of his idiocies, all of his incompetencies, all of his mendacities must be explains in the framework of him being infallible. >> right. >> so, in other words, if you see him being wrong, it's not he's being wrong, it's he's being so right that it's beyond your puny ability to understand. >> that's right, yeah. >> we'll understand it by and by. >> when he tweeted himself out with rocky's body, i feel like for a lot of his base, they're

like, that's how they really see him when they see him. that's what they see. >> i think it is. i know somewhere sylvester stallone is just somewhere shaking his head. >> we were talking about this little bit in the break, that i felt this same kind of vibe during george w. bush's presidency, that one must not question george w. bush. there were loyalty oaths people had to sign to show up at his rallies. the idea that we were torturing people, which i thought at the time was the greatest shame that could be brought on america around the world, the greatest disrepute that could be placed on us was that we turned into torturers. and now i feel like even worse is being suborn with donald trump. is it just being a republican that they are just sort of authoritarian and that whoever the president is is who they worship? because the same kind of thing did happen with george w. bush. >> it's a sense that there is no bottom and also the sense that they want easy answers. they don't want to deal with the kplewlts of whatever challenge, foreign policy, domestic, whatever.

there is this idea among republicans that they want what i call the cliff clavin solution. for those of you who remember "cheers," you know? cliff is the loud-mouth down at the bar who knows everything and knows nothing but has a simple solution for everything. that's what republicans seem to reflexively see. that's a cliff clavin thing. and no one in the history of american politics, i believe, has been more clavin than the guy in the white house right now. so, in that regard, it's a perfect fit. george w. at the very least -- and i don't give him much credit for a lot of things -- but he was a recognizable adult. >> yeah. >> he was a recognizable adult. and at least some aspects of political gravity were still at play there. >> yeah. >> none of that's here now. >> and he seemed to at a certain point towards the end of his presidency to wake up to realize that he had been led off the cliff by the people who wanted war. and he seemed to have a conscience about it. there seemed to at least be something human inside of him. >> i think he was a fundamentally decent guy. i think if you leave the elephant -- no pun intended -- the elephant in the room, the

politics, the war, the rest of the stuff out of it, i could imagine having a fine old time with george w. >> he seemed to have a heart inside of him. >> there was a soul there, yeah. >> the other kind of -- the cultlike aspect of what donald trump is doing, then there's the actual aspect of it, because you know, i was thinking the other day that the through line between his cruelties are that he's, you know, a-okay war crimes against muslims, that he's a-okaying police brutality against black and brown people, that he's a-okaying -- and in fact, his administration is caging and stealing children -- stealing people's children that are brown. that seems to be the through line. how much of what donald trump has been able to get away with is in part because the republican party is now essentially a white party? they don't have very many nonwhite people there involved? >> well, the other thing i've called the republican, in addition to calling them a cult, is a hate group. and i think that the evidence of that mounts on a daily basis. i think that a large part of the angst that we're seeing -- let

me back up. one of the things that bothers me is when what we're seeing is framed as a political issue. >> right. >> it is not solely or even a majority political issue. this is an issue about one part of the country, many white americans -- not all of them -- many white americans uncomfortable, to put it mildly, with the idea that they are to be a demographic minority, as are we all. so, this is about all hands on deck, hair on fire, emergency, we will do this by any means necessary to evade this coming future. so, that's where trump comes from. trump is the promise that whatever else happens, white people who believe in this, i will protect you, i will shield you from demographic reality. >> yeah. and all the data backs that up. leonard pitts, so great to see you. >> thank you. >> thank you very much for being here. coming up, i will tell you about an amazing new book about impeachment that could be the most like what donald trump is going to face, and no, it is not about richard nixon. i'll explain next. not about richard nixon. i'll elaxpin next. thousands of women with metastatic breast cancer,

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and swimming pools, public cafes, bars and bistros even pet care services. and there's never been an easier way to get great advice. a place for mom is a free service that pairs you with a local advisor to help you sort through your options and find a perfect place. a place for mom. you know your family we know senior living. together we'll make the right choice. the darkest days of the american revolution, thomas payne wrote "the times have found us." the times found them to fight for and establish a democracy. the times have found us today. not to place ourselves in the

same category of greatness as our founders, but to place us in the urgency of protecting and defending our constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. in the words of ben franklin, "to keep our republic." >> impeachment is built into the constitution, mandated in cases of, quote, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. and all through its history -- and although its history, sorry, is rare, donald trump is of course not the first president to face an impeachment proceeding. and while there are obvious parallels to richard nixon and the watergate era, nixon resigned before he was formally impeached and removed. trump's impeachment resembles more andrew johnson, who assumed the presidency after abraham lincoln was assassinated in 1865. joining me now is brenda wine apple, author of the great new book "the impeachers: the trial of andrew johnson and the dream of a just nation." and brenda, thank you so much for being here. you were on my wish list, so thank you to my booking

producers, because i just started reading your book. >> oh, wonderful. >> it's so good. >> thank you. >> so good. one of the things -- this is from "the new york times," a piece called "donald trump, meet your precursor," about the shared -- the things that they have in common. it says, "most significantly, both men," this is trump and andrew johnson, "made an undisguised championship of white supremacy, the lodestar of the presidencies and played on politics racial division. johnson played on the racist myth that southern whites were victimized by black manus nation and citizenship, which became an article of faith among the lost cause proponents in the post war out." where could you see the line between these two men and their impeachments? >> first of all, you're right, johnson was a villain. he played on white supremacy. he wanted to turn the country back, backwards, before the civil war, and he wanted to give the southern whites, the former confederacy, he wanted to restore their power, which was

unthinkable at the time, because the war had been fought, not only to abolish slavery, but to get rid of the pernicious effects of slavery and make the country free and fair and, you know, and equal citizenship for all. but johnson stood in the way, really, of civil rights for the former enslaved people, 4 million of them. and then, of course, he wanted to deny them political rights as well. so, there's a through line there, but he was also a demagogue. he called his enemies -- i mean, he called for their execution. he called the press the enemy of the people. he denied the legitimacy of congress, he obstructed justice, he abused his power. i think that's, you know, quite a mouthful, actually. there's quite a bit that he did. >> other than hosting a reality show, it sounds like the same guy. >> exactly, exactly. and good thing he didn't have

twitter, but he did have rallies. he went and he wanted to bring his case to the people. and you know, even though he said he loved the constitution, it didn't even seem to be understood impeachment exactly because he couldn't understand why he was being impeached because he thought he was just doing what people wanted. but the people that he was referring to were, you know, white supremacists. >> yeah. and i think people should notice that, note that the ticket was a sort of fusion ticket between the republican, lincoln, who was -- even though he personally did not have a lot of affection for black people and wanted to send black people back to africa -- >> originally. >> but he was against slavery. >> yeah, no, absolutely. and the republican party was an antislavery party, but lincoln tried to balance the ticket. we've heard of that before. >> yeah. >> and so, he was afraid that he wasn't going to win in 1864, so he put on his ticket what was called a war democrat, because johnson was very involved in saving the union. he believed in the union, but he

also believed that slavery was better protected within the union than outside of it. >> let's talk about why he was actually impeached. andrew johnson faced 11 articles of impeachment. nine had to do with him violating a law. there was a law against firing cabinet members without congressional approval. he violated it by firing the secretary of war. it included violating -- it's called the tenure of office act -- violating the constitution and violating congress. ultimately what caused him to become the first impeached president? >> what happened is that congress had been trying to impeach him for a while for obstruction of justice, for abuse of power, for maladministration. but as we know today, these are kind of murky terms. but when johnson actually violated what you said, the tenure of office act, that became the efficient cause that finally, the house of representatives voted overwhelmingly, more than 2-1, to impeach andrew johnson. then he went to trial in the senate, and we know, we've been talking a lot about what might happen there.

and johnson, as you probably know, was acquitted by just one vote, and he stayed in office. and it was also in an election year. that's another through line that's very interesting. >> yeah. and he did not run for re-election, is that correct? >> no, no. of course, the republicans weren't going to touch him, and they had ulysses s. grant standing in the wings and ready to go, and he with a popular hero, and he also hated johnson. but the democrats didn't want, you know, didn't want to touch him either. he was toxic to them by that time. he managed to unite everyone against him, which is, you know, not an easy thing to do. >> in other words, he had as low poll numbers, if not lower than the current president of the united states. and just briefly before we let you go, whenever i have a sto historian on, i want you to remind the country, these two parties, republicans and democrats, were exactly reversed at that time. >> exactly. the republicans were formed kind of coalition, antislavery party. it was very, very clear, that's what they stood for. and the democrats were for, you

know, small government and became associated with, you know, white supremacists at the time and for home rule, which is to say states' rights, which is to say keeping black men and women, you know, without citizenship, without due process. >> yeah, absolutely, with the conservative party. they were reversed, folks. so, that's where all the people want to go on twitter. the book is called "the impeachers." the author is brenda wineapple. i recommend you read it. add it to your christmas gift list for books. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you so much, joy. >> thank you. re. >> thank you so much, joy. >> thank you we made usaa insurance for members like martin. an air force veteran made of doing what's right, not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right.

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that's our show for today. "a.m. joy" will be back tomorrow, 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, alex witt has latest. alex, i miss you. >> i miss you, too. >> i wish you were here. >> i do, too. did you have a nice thanksgiving? >> i had a wonderful thanksgiving. too much food, though, too much food. >> that's how it goes. see you, my friend. good day to all of you, from msnbc world headquarters in new york, it's high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." new leadership, new deadlines, as the judiciary committee takes the reins on impeachment. big decisions lie ahead for the president. plus, a closer look at the lawyer who's standing by his boss. a former staffer explains the connections between rudy giuliani and president trump that go back decades.