evidence are still working and going on with their lives. that is not the america we want to have. that does it for me. thanks for watching. up next, my colleague richard lui picks up the -- the coverage with more of today's news. hi. i'm richard lui at msnbc headquarters in new york city. it's day 68 of the impeachment inquiry and today the president faces two new deadlines. the person setting them, judiciary committee chairman nadler. and nadler set the first deadline for tomorrow. the second deadline is friday. the campaign trail is not on holiday today. joe biden rolls out his campaign bus which begins an 18-county tour of iowa today. and the president's upcoming trip to the nato summit. how his surprise announcement about afghanistan adds questions to international security policy. first up though for you this hour. impeachment phase two.

and that begins today. or so it would seem. the chairman of the judiciary committee, congressman jerry nadler, tells the president he has 24 hours to meet a deadline and six days to meet a second deadline. in a letter, nadler asked president trump to let his committee know by sunday, tomorrow, if he plans to attend the hearings or to bring counsel. he also set a deadline for friday, december 6th, for the president to decide if he wants to call his own witnesses. in addition, nadler laid out, in this letter, the hearing's agenda. it will have historical and constitutional basis of impeachment. that will be in the agenda. the framework through which the house will look at the evidence and whether the president's actions warrant drafting articles of impeachment. now, the nadler letter comes as reporting from "the washington post" suggests that there is little to know evidence to back up eu ambassador gordon sondland's claim that he spoke with president trump on the

now-famous september 9th call. the president says that call proves he was not seeking favors from ukraine. a claim now under scrutiny. all this after seven public hearings to date. more than 34 hours of public testimony. 12 witnesses all said. our panel today, political white house reporter. senior staff writer for the hill, scott wong, and former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst carole lam. but first, let's go straight to white house correspondent kelly o'donnell in west palm beach, florida. and, kelly, it's a new day. we got new deadlines and has the white house responded to chairman nadler? >> not yet. and perhaps they're going to take as much time as the chairman is allowing to get those responses. but i think we've got some clues that can give us some guidance. in part, the white house has until tomorrow to decide if, by wednesday, they want to have any lawyers.

the president's personal or white house lawyers. involved in the hearing on wednesday. and then by friday, they have an opportunity to decide if they're going to really put a defense forward for any portion of the judiciary hearing as it deals with impeachment. at the same time, we have heard from house republicans on that committee. and one thing they are asking for is an expansion of the witnesses on wednesday. asking for more witnesses who would be academics who would be talking about the grounds for constitutional determinations about impeachment. and so liberals on the democratic side would be able to invite their witnesses. and republicans are saying there might be some conservative academics who would be able to also participate. we don't know if the chairman is going to permit that. but that's one indication of a way that republicans would like to see the committee expand what it's doing. so to give you a sense of it. the clock is running. the president has some decisions

to make. and what we know is, up until this point, they have said what's been happening in the house is a sham process that has cut the president out. making it seem unlikely that he would want to engage in that process. but we don't yet know for sure until the president and his legal team make a decision. richard. >> so, kelly, ear to the ground. you always have. go, no go? do we know whether the president will say yes or no? any indications here? >> well, i think because the president has some options, which would include participation or not participation. we know one thing is wednesday he is due to be in europe to attend the 70th anniversary of the nato alliance. and have a couple of days on the world stage there. given that, they expect that the president couldn't be personally there. so could he send legal counsel? he could. but he certainly will have republicans on that committee wanting to do, you know, to represent his position. it seems unlikely that while this is in the house that the

president would want to engage. at the same time knowing if the house goes forward with impeachment, the senate would control any future trial. and that would be republican control. a more comfortable environment, perhaps, for the president. but all of that is still to be determined. richard. >> our white house correspondent kelly kelly o'donnell from west palm beach, florida. let's turn to our panel now. political white house reporter daniel litman. scott wong, as mentioned earlier. carole lam. carole, let's start with you on this. you are the advisor to president trump. what should he do with these two deadlines? >> well, it's a tough -- tough decision they've got going on here because it's a little bit like a criminal trial. certainly -- certainly, the president is not likely to testify himself. but when you're trying to decide whether or not to mount a defense, you have to be aware that you're not just going to get to put on your side of the

story. the -- your story that you put forward can also be attacked by the other side. so that's the tough decision they have to make now and with the president's schedule in the last couple of day, i imagine there's been a lot of vetting of potential positions that they could take with respect to whether or not they're going to actually send counsel to actually start mounting a defense. or whether they're just going to say this process is just illegitimate and we're not going to partake in it at all. >> so we may hear something. we may not hear anything from this president and his lawyers. you know, scott, i was looking t lett at the letter here from chairman nadler. not very long. what? two, three paragraphs here. at the end, he says i'll look forward to your prompt response. what do you make of the timing? this the day after thanksgiving that chairman nadler's putting out this letter. and the deadlines. >> well, it's just shifting. we're seeing the impeachment process shift from the intelligence committee. now, to the judiciary committee. and i think these are gonna be

much more unpredictable hearings than we saw under the leadership of chairman schiff over at intel. he was extremely disciplined. you know, by -- in large part, those were successful hearings for democrats. they were able to extract testimony from these fact witnesses to help them build a case for impeachment. under judiciary, you have some conservative bomb throwers like matt gaetz, like louie gomer, who were the ones responsible for the political stunt in storming the secure scif and interrupting the depositions that were underway. on the other hand, you have liberal bomb throwers like, you know, liberal like ted lieu. so i think what that means is these are going to be much -- that's sort of a recipe for much more explosive hearings than perhaps we saw under adam schiff's intelligence committee.

>> some might say good tv if you like that kind of stuff. >> sure. >> yeah. if you like that kind of stuff. scott does. daniel litman, as we look at this here, these two deadlines, the second deadline is if the president would like to call his own witnesses. is it then up to nadler to say yes or no? >> yeah. i think nadler doesn't want to make it look too partisan. this is already a pretty partisan process. and so it depends on what kind of witnesses the president would want to send up. i don't think he's going to send too many up because that would legitimize this inquiry in the first place. i think his strategy for his defense is to stick to tweeting and chopper talk for the next few weeks. and he's probably going to be distracted from the nato summit because he's going to want to watch some of those hearings and respond via twitter. and so world leaders better kind of keep his attention before, you know, he has to respond back home. >> carol, the rubber's hitting the road here, right?

this letter going over to the president. he now has to, you know, put out his decisions. if -- if you're in the white house, if you're the president, are these scary deadlines? or are they just matter of process? >> well, i think it's matter of process. they have to know what the hearings are fundamentally going to look like before they can make their decisions. and that's why the deadlines -- the second deadline, which falls on friday, comes after the intelligence committee's report will -- will be sent over. because the president, as a matter of process, the president and his advisors have to know what the allegations are going to be before they can make a decision whether they're going to send witnesses in to testify. so it is a matter of process at this point. but there's a lot that -- that goes into figuring out whether they're going to comply with that process or not. and what kinds of witnesses they're going to call. the president has to be very careful. his team has to be very careful not to start putting on witnesses who will then be

essentially waving any kind of executive privilege or attorney/client privilege by testifying. so they may call some witnesses. if they do participate in this process, they may call some witnesses around the edges. but they've got to think -- think down the line what it will mean if they actually start calling people with -- with firsthand knowledge of facts. that can be pretty hazardous for them. >> scott, you were talking about schiff and leadership during the intel committee hearings, right? we were laying out the number of hours. 34 hours or so here that we heard of testimony. nadler doesn't have the same sort of halo, right? walking into this. because when this entire process began in debate, if you will, nadler, by critics' view, didn't get all positive. didn't get all a pluses. >> that's exactly right. you know, looking back at some of the past hearings he presided over, corey lewandowski, which sort of went off the rails.

the robert mueller hearing, c s which was not seen as particularly successful for democrats. i think that was the case. >> i know you were writing about schiff and how generally speaking you said this earlier that his performance was positive for the most part. has nadler been able to learn from that? any word on that? >> oh, i -- i certainly think that nadler was carefully observing how schiff conducted the hearings the past few weeks. and is picking up a few lessons. so nadler, i think his mission will be to keep, you know, run a tight ship. to not let things go off the rails. to continue the momentum that democrats have. they're also on a very tight timeline. they want to get this wrapped up before christmas. and so he can't -- he's not going to schedule five different hearings. i think there's going to be a fairly limited number of hearings and they're each going to have a specific goal. like the first one will be constitutional and legal scholars. and he -- he -- he definitely is

considering, i think, his -- his reputation and in trying to, as you mentioned, trying to right the ship. >> and part of this here, daniel, is trying to educate the public, right? because if you look at the -- your own poll so far in terms of support for impeachment. look at now versus last week. barely even a movement of a percentage point or two or three. so that means that potentially nadler has to do something different and as well educate as was laid out in the letter the public to say this is why you need to watch. >> yeah. i think democrats understand that they're not going to get overwhelming public support for impeachment throughout this entire process. because people are pretty dug into their point of views. but because the -- the scandal is much more simple compared to the sprawling russia/mueller investigation, democrats feel pretty confident that they can keep this narrowly targeted on

that july 25th call and the resulting pressure campaign that president trump had on ukraine. and if they keep it simple, then they can keep those numbers inching up. but democrats know that they're not going to get a wave of support that would lead 20 republicans to defect in the senate. >> carol, what is the best way to talk about those topics in terms of public? this is the process. this is why we're doing it. this is what warrants or does not warrant articles of impeachment. you -- you remember your civics class. you probably remember them better than most given what you do. and have done. but what's the best way to explain this to america? >> well, you do have to keep it simple. that's -- that's true whenever -- whether you're trying a case to a jury or whether, in this case, you're doing a political process for the public. you do have to keep it simple because people are busy. they're -- they're not able to focus on this 24 hours a day. but what i think -- what -- what makes the ukraine situation

really one that people can understand is -- is if -- if it's presented clearly, it's really an example of the president putting his own interests ahead of those of the nation. and i think that does sort of -- that -- that does sort of ring a bell for -- for most people. and the other part of the proposed impeachment allegations include, you know, potential obstruction of congress in these -- in the impeachment inquiry. as well as obstruction of justice going back to the allegations in special counsel bob mueller's report. and obstruction is something that most people can fundamentally understand. now, whether -- whether that's going to get as much traction as -- as congress needs is another question. but something simple of great import. i think that's -- that's what people need to hear. >> yeah. something my mom used to tell me when she was going over my papers as a teacher. keep it simple stupid kiss, right? keep it simple stupid.

sorry, mom. i had to say that. scott wong, thank you so much. daniel lippman, carol lamb. we'll talk to you a little later. coming up, joe bind kicking off his iowa bus tour. we'll take you there next. plus, the state of the 2020 race and reports that the kamala harris campaign could be having some trouble and struggle. doug ♪ and now for their service to the community, we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you may have gingivitis. when you brush, and the clock could be ticking towards bad breath, receding gums, and possibly... tooth loss. help turn back the clock on gingivitis with parodontax.

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in the fight for the white house, the 2020 candidates are now two months out from the highly-anticipated iowa caucus and joe biden struggling with iowa voters is trying to win them back with an eight-day, 800-mile long bus tour throughout the state. now, the former vice president's no malarkey tour, his words, kicking off in the city of council bluffs with plans to visit 18 counties. but as biden aims to energize iowa voters, mayor pete buttigieg takes the lead. averages of iowa polls by real clear politics right there show buttigieg on top with 24%. that's followed by senator bernie sanders with 18.3.

senator elizabeth warren with 17.7. biden rounds out the top four with 16.3. but when looking at national polling averages, booin leads with 27%. that's followed by sanders at 18.3. warren with 15.8. and buttigieg rounds out the top four with 11%. joining us now, nbc road warrior mike memoli in iowa following biden and npr's lead political editor. mike, we'll start with you. and you've been -- i've been watching your reporting all day. and as you look at this bus, the no malarkey tour, for those who don't know what malarkey is, you can clearly go through that for us and i think they have a definition on the bus itself, right, mike? >> yeah, richard. they do indeed. i've been following the former vice president when he was vice president and when he was running for vice president now for more than a decade. malarkey means foolish talk and that's what the tour here is

about. showing to voters here in iowa the first caucus state of course that joe biden is the only candidate they believe can guarantee an end to the malarkey of president trump. we just heard actually the former vice president just took stage here during the commercial break. he said that this bus tour for him is going to be focusing on what is often a forgotten part of even a rural state like iowa. and that is really the smaller communities where he's going to be spending next eight days. also heard from his wife jill biden. she said stopping donald trump starts today. so this is really an effort by the biden campaign to jump start the pace of the campaign. they talked about thanksgiving. that this is a time when a lot of families are gathering around the table. starting really to finally hone in on their decision. we've been talking to voters here. some who say they just saw mayor pete here in fact a couple days ago. he's certainly high up but joe biden still has a chance to close the deal for them.

so that's why the biden campaign is saying the message he's really going to be focused on is he is indeed the best candidate to take on donald trump. he is the only candidate that can win states like michigan, pennsylvania that are so important. >> dominico, as we look at iowa. as you remember what you ate over the last two days, is this really the time where those views because you're talking with friends and family start to coagulate a little? start to stick a little bit more in terms of who you like and who you don't? >> yeah. i got to think about what i did eat so it doesn't coagulate too much. but when you think about what's happening in this democratic primary, with so many candidates, you have about half to two-thirds of democratic primary voters saying that they're undecided at this point. that they could change their mind. so when you see those numbers and why they fluctuate, it's volatile. so when you've got those top four candidates, the reason buttigieg is able to sort of surge and why warren had kind of come down in the past month. why biden was surging and then sort of dipped a bit is because of this sort of undecided

feeling with these democratic voters where they really want somebody who can beat donald trump. so when they hear elizabeth warren talking about medicare for all and then they line that up with polling numbers that show it to be unpopular. that makes them a little squeamish. and then people start coming back to someone like biden. i mean, if you were to take biden, who's as generic democrat as possible and put his name tomorrow on the ballot against donald trump. you know, he stands a pretty even or better than even money chance of winning the thing. so, you know, that's what a lot of people are looking at. that number -- the numbers you showed there were early on were really important because they were all above 15%. >> uh-huh. >> and 15% is important in a state like iowa because you get no points. you get no delegates unless you finish above 15% in the state. and someone like biden, if he can finish in the top three in iowa, he can have an argument to say he's still in the race. and then if he can sort of convince black voters who have been the backbone of his candidacy, winning more than 60%

of black voters. he can win in south carolina. suddenly, he can have a path to the nomination with all those march 3rd states that ever significant populations in the south of african-american voters. >> so when we look at this, back over to you, mike. iowa. ground game key here. get in your pick-up. get in your van. in this case, your bus for joe biden and others. you got to blanket the state. how are the -- the ground games of the others? and we look at the top four in that polling. right? but we have many, many other candidates that sit below. and this is -- this gets expensive. this also tests your ability. kamala harris in "the new york times" today reporting being that hey, they've got some issues. some struggle right now in the ranks. >> yeah, richard. absolutely. what the biden campaign says is they actually have one of the biggest ground games in the state. they have 26 field officers. more than 100 paid staff. that's one of the biggest in the state. what we haven't seen as much from them is tv advertising.

mayor pete buttigieg has been outspending biden by about 3-1 here in the state in the last few weeks and months. other candidates, obviously tom steyer spending a lot of money on tsk. not necessarily seeing that translate in the polls. but kamala harris, you said it with great fanfare that she's moving to iowa. we saw her preparing her thanksgiving dinner that she was going to celebrate thanksgiving here in iowa. but her campaign struggles really have overtaken the message of her campaign. and i will tell you the biden campaign, who you'll remember that debate moment at our first debate there in miami earlier this summer. he was on the offensive at the hands of kamala harris. and so there's some satisfaction let's say among team biden at seeing kamala harris and her campaign struggles at this point. >> domenico, react to that but this reporting is correct from "the new york times," what does that show about where we're at in the race? and what is happening with the harris campaign? >> look. i think too many people put far too much into what staffers or advisors are doing on campaigns. they like to think that they're

sort of mare yen ets making candidates do things. the fact is, she struggled with the message. running for president is very difficult. a lot of democratic voters really like the idea of kamala harris but she wasn't able to sort of sell it all the way through. you know, she had a surge in the polls. after that debate moment that mike was talking about. that certainly the biden campaign is happy to see now her sort of struggling with this. she wasn't able in the next debate to really cash in on that. you know, you might remember in that debate, tulsi gabbard, the congresswoman from hawaii came after her on something. and she just sort of shrugged her off and didn't really have a good, strong comeback. which was very surprising for a lot of people who thought she would be able to kind of take it to some of these other candidates. >> which is indicative p potentially of the play plan. thank you so much. great to have you both. coming up, president trump getting ready to head overseas

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deal and we're meeting with them. and we're saying it has to be a ceasefire. they didn't want to do a ceasefire but now they do want

to do a ceasefire. i believe it will probably work out that way. and we'll see what happens. >> president trump preparing to travel to london for the nato summit. he's still dealing with the fallout from his thanksgiving day assertion you saw there that a taliban ceasefire is in the works or being discussed. "the washington post" reports the president's announcement surprised both the taliban and afghan government. and neither the taliban nor the government of afghan president ashraf ghani indicated that a ceasefire was near or even being discussed in resumed u.s. negotiations. now, president trump drew criticism when he announced he planned to meet with taliban negotiators at camp david. those were ultimately cancelled and at the time, he said he called off the talks after the taliban took responsible -- or rather took responsibility for an attack that killed 12 people. including a u.s. service member. now, in the interim, the administration has moved ahead with its plan to withdrawal u.s.

troops from afghanistan. right now, 8,600 troops are deployed in the region. a drop from about 13,000. joining us now, retired four star general wesley clarke. former nato supreme allied commander, chairman and ceo of wesley k. clarke and associates. and senior fellow at ucla. and back with us, daniel lippman. thank you for being with us and if i can start with you, general. what do you make of the fact that the ceasefire is back in the language that the president is using? and for those who watch this space are saying, is the united states even ready, capable of pushing and leveraging a ceasefire? given where we have been in negotiations to date. >> well, i think a ceasefire would be a tangible sign of progress that the president would seek. but that doesn't mean that the ceasefire's really on the table right now. i think what the taliban said when president trump called off the last set of talks before

they were going to camp david is the united states will be back. and now, i guess we're back. and of course, we would like the ceasefire because it would be tangible. but as we've learned about the mechanics of how the peace talks have unfolded. really, this is about a promise by the taliban not to deal with al qaeda. and later, to talk with the -- with the existing government headed by president ghani. and then maybe there can be a ceasefire. so if they put the ceasefire way further down. and in the meantime, we're withdrawing forces anyway. so this is essentially an exercise to try to give the united states the appearance of -- of something. when we don't really have it. that's my fear on this. >> yeah. daniel, the -- the headlines are reading. i was looking at "usa today" and "the new york times" and that's surprised and i was just meng g mentioning the taliban, as well as the afghan government itself. was this being discussed in the

state department? was this something being discussed in the department of defense? >> doesn't appear that this was something that was being discussed at upper reaches of the u.s. government. and for trump to say, well, the taliban want this. and the taliban kind of deny it and say their negotiating position has not changed. indicates kind of a credibility gap between what the president says and what the actual truth is. and so he seemed to go a little over his skis but he does want the taliban to come to this position. but as we withdrawal u.s. troops, even without a deal, we're losing leverage already. and so that makes it much harder for us to get the taliban to agree to what we want. >> since we're talking about international policy, general, as was mentioned. next week, we have a nato meeting of leaders. this is definitely a space that you know quite well. however, at the moment, nato it would appear and its leaders

fairly dysfunctional because of domestic politics in the respective member nations themselves. what are you looking for in this meeting as president trump goes abroad? >> well, i'd like to see the baltic defense plan approved. turkey, president erdogan of turkey, has blocked nato approval of this. so that's the first thing. secondly, i'd like to see the united states not cut its commitment to the nato infrastructure funding, which apparently it's announced its intention to do. and third, all these nato nations are looking to the united states for leadership. so it's going to take a strong statement of purpose for the united states -- by the united states -- to reinvigorate nato. the president of france has said nato is brain dead. german president -- chancellor merkel has said this is not a good thing but she didn't say it wasn't quite true. so nato's facing a real crisis in leadership. i was in new york in september. i met with former presidents of east european countries and to a

person, they're all aghast. they can't believe the lack of u.s. leadership out there in nato. and they're afraid. one of them told me that eastern europe that feels like 1938 again. it's the brink of warfare caused by, of course, russia. >> and, daniel, what the general was saying here. it was m and m at least for the last couple years. macrone and merkel. the question is, with mcroen having trouble at home, merkel not necessarily going strong based on the hand that's been dealt to her. is what will be next for nato? and its importance as the general is tweeting a little bit earlier that mcroen is saying, hey, united states, you must lead. >> yeah. i think that's a clear indication that, you know, european leaders are unsure of trump's commitment. he has threatened to pull out of

nato, which would tear up the u.s./european alliance. and, you know, it reminds me of a scoop i had in march earlier this year when joe biden was considering running for president. he had met with some european leaders before. and they were urging him to run for president, which is kind of a unusual thing given that their current sitting occupant, donald trump, is not a popular man in europe. and they think joe biden would be better for them. >> yeah. as we watch for the meeting, again, this coming week, we'll find out whether it's functional nato or dysfunctional or elements of both potentially. general, while we've got you here, i want to reflect on this op-ed. from the former secretary of the navy richard spencer. writing this. the president has a very little understanding of what it means to be in the military, to fight ethically, or to be governed by a uniform set of rules and practices. what do you take from that, sir? >> well, i think -- i think he made a good statement. i think, though, from president

trump's perspective, it's just a matter of politics really. he wants to play to his base. and -- and if the military brass stands in the way of that, they're going to get trampled. and in this case, secretary spencer wouldn't let him make the play he wanted. so spencer's out. it's unfortunate because the military does need structure and rules and authority. and the processes are about as good as we could devise them. president trump could have intervened after the navy review board but he chose not to. he wanted to make the political statement when he wanted to make it so he did it. and in doing it, he hurts the leadership and the men and women who depend on that leadership in the u.s. armed forces. >> sir, thank you so much. general wesley clarke with us. politico's daniel lippman for this conversation. really do appreciate it. >> thank you. >> you bet. coming up, what we're learning about yesterday's attacker in london. (loud fan noise)

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an arrest has been made in the netherlands in connection to a spree of stabbings. police say a 35-year-old man was taken into custody without incident earlier today. that attack happened yesterday in the hague. three teenagers were injured in those stabbings. they have all since been treated and released from the hospital. in london, police are searching for clues in a separate stabbing attack there. it left two people dead and three more injured near london bridge. usman khan was tackled yesterday by members of the public.

shot dead by officers on the bridge after being identified as the attacker. this morning, investigators say the 28-year-old had a previous terror conviction. and served jail time for his role in a plot to bomb the city's stock exchange and other major sites including the u.s. embassy. khan was in prison for six years in that case but was released last year. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin is in london with the latest. >> well, some serious questions are being asked here in london tonight. specifically, what the suspect was doing out of prison? identified as 28-year-old usman khan. he was convicted in 2012 of plotting terror attacks on the u.s. embassy here in london, as well as the london stock exchange. at the time, a judge explicitly warning authorities not to let him out on what's called early license in this country. nevertheless, it's exactly what happened. he was released and electronically tagged. today, british prime minister

saying the episode is symptomatic of a broken system. >> i have long said that this system simply isn't working. it does not make sense for us as a society to be putting terrorist people who commit terrorist offenses, serious, violent offenses out on early release. >> well, there could be political implications for prime minister johnson. keep in mind the general election is 13 days away. and there's serious questions about the government's decision to lower the threat level here in the uk in the weeks prior to the attack. erin mclaughlin. nbc news london. >> erin, thank you so much for that. all righty. coming up, we take a deeper look at rudy giuliani's ties to ukraine. but before we go to break, a quick check on a major winter storm we're all watching that's heading to the northeast. nbc news meteorologist has the latest. >> hi, richard. we have 76 million people that are going to be impacted by this storm system and it's two major systems from the midwest to the northeast. it's the biggest travel day of

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i wish i could shake your hand. granted. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ and welcome back. rudy giuliani is still at the center of the impeachment inquiry today. this over his connections in ukraine and efforts to have the country launch investigations. ones that would benefit president trump. now, "the washington post" analysis breaks down giuliani's communications with then current and former ukrainian officials. this analysis starts last december. that's when giuliani at the time met with associate lev parnas. he connected giuliani. parnas did. with former ukraine prosecutor

general viktor shokin. now, giuliani initially was working to counter the mueller investigation. but instead, in this case, shokin leads giuliani to allegations. allegations that former vice president joe biden had worked to get him fired. shokin claimed this was an effort to protect joe biden's son hunter. giuliani then pivoted and made this his focus. this despite a lack of evidence to prove shokin's theory. again, about the bidens. then we take you to the next month. giuliani and parnas and another of his associates, igor fruman, spoke with shokin again. and that -- with yuriy lutsenko. both made accusations against biden. shokin criticized ambassador to ukraine. in addition here, marie

yovanovitch. now the washington. >> reporter: lutsenko asked -- he claimed had been stolen from ukraine. the pair discussed agreements and reportedly this involved hundreds of thousands of dollars in retainers for giuliani. giuliani eventually decided not to take that job. then we take you to late april in the calendar. yovanovitch was removed from her position. she was targeted by giuliani and others in trump's circle on the way up to this release. this firing. fruman and parnas at the same time were meeting with ukrainian officials. now, parnas told the new yorker that they were both working to both help dig up dirt on behalf of the president and garner new business for themselves along the way. then in may, vladimir zelensky takes office as the new ukrainian president. this is when the president told his team this is when the president told his team to works with giuliani on ukraine. this continued to aid in the

pressure campaign to get ukraine to conduct investigations requested by the bidens. by august giuliani had met with senior zelensky aid andriy yermak and was reportedly involved in draft ing a statement that ukraine announced to the investigations themselves in public. giuliani and the trump administration's efforts in ukraine began to come to light just weeks later. however, despite the president's seemingly close relationship with his personal lawyer, this week he appeared to be distancing himself from rudy giuliani. >> what was giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> you have to ask that to rudy. but rudy -- i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine and i think he canceled the trip. but, you know, rudy doesn't have other clients other than me. i'm one person -- >> so you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no, but no. you have to understand, rudy is a great corruption fighter. >> joining us now, huff post

senior justice reporter ryan riley and msnbc legal analyst carol lam. well, i guess when you hear the word "jeopardy" here, carol, this seems to be rife with a whole bunch of risks for rudy giuliani. we haven't heard from him as of late during all those public testimonies that we heard on the hill. where does giuliani sit right now in the case the democrats are trying to make? >> i don't want to get too far ahead of the facts that we know, but there seems to be no question the risk profile for rudy giuliani is getting higher. so this is what we know. we know that in addition to the facts that you just reviewed, we know that parnas and fruman have been indicted for campaign finance violations related to misrepresenting the source of funds that went to u.s. politicians that actually came from foreign governments. right around that same time period of those actions, parnas

and fruman paid rudy giuliani $500,000 for his consulting and management services, that's by giuliani's own admission to the press. that's not a great situation for rudy giuliani. and i think the southern district of new york prosecutors are doing exactly what they should be doing, which is trying to get their hands on every shred of paper that shows any finance information relating to giuliani. they're going after undoubtedly tax returns, bank information. they're going to companies that did business with them. they're looking for agreements, loan documents, anything that shows the money moving and they're going to follow the money. then on top of that they're going to talk to witnesses who can put that story together for them. they're getting the documents, then they're going to ask the witnesses. parnas has now indicated he's going to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. that doesn't mean he's necessarily cooperating with the prosecutors, but that's a

possibility in the future. >> talk about putting a story together. ryan, you have been putting together the story here on ukraine and rudy giuliani. i guess one question for those who are not part of this space, this consulting fee, typical? >> not quite, especially the way they structured it. if you take a step back, and the broader problem here, obviously giuliani, there's been reports of him having money flow problems in connection with his divorce and it doesn't set up a great situation when you have this lawyer for the president working pro bono. it's a bad combination because it looks like payment for access. that's really what i think he's facing here, appearance of impropriety. you look at a situation where a personal attorney for the president is seen by foreign actors as a way to go around the system, that's a real problem. if that was going on in a different country, america would see that as an issue.

there shouldn't be this back-channel way of getting -- outside of official channels. so i think that's -- when you step back, it was this setup that was never going to end well when you have a situation when he was in this position to offer access to the president directly. >> seems here, ryan, going back to the web, if you will, that we had up on the screen of americans and ukrainians with rudy giuliani in the very middle of all of that, this is only what we know in terms of who rudy giuliani is and the connections that he was making. >> yeah. i mean, it has a swampy look to it and that's something the president ran on is trying to drain the swamp. when people hear about, oh, these extraordinary fees foreign governments can have access to the president and sort of put a bug in his ear and get an ambassador ousted, that's certainly a problem, the idea of the president trying to drain the swamp. that's not a great look. >> not a great look.

carol lam, very quickly, 30 seconds, what's next for rudy giuliani? >> i think giuliani's going to have to see what his exposure is here, whether that means his own lawyer is going to be talking to the southern district of new york or not. there was some word play a couple days ago about whether giuliani -- whether the president was throwing him under the bus, so to speak. we're a long ways from giuliani turning against the president, but his own exposure may force his hand on that. ryan riley, carol lam, go out and enjoy your saturday. that wraps it up for me this hour. i'm richard lui. you can follow me on twitter, instagram, and facebook. stay with us right here on msnbc. phones down. we need a solution. introducing... smartdogs. the first dogs trained to train humans. stopping drivers from: liking. selfie-ing.

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20 years. >> let's play "hardball." >> obama drama. machineny the meany. >> to the moon and back. no one's ever late for an execution. don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree. >> to huckabee or not to be? high noon on gun control. no country for old men. hope for the pope. wiener schnitzel. mutiny for the wacko birds. is the free world free from fear? could it really be trump versus hillary next year? you say you want a revolution. size matters, day four. fries