we're letting you win. we're having a great family and for having made a tremendous difference in this country, i made a tremendous difference in the country. i didn't get down, i sat down and had a gorgeous piece of turkey and i was all set to do go and i had some of the mashed potatoes, and i never got to the turkey because the general said come on over, sir, let's take some pictures. i never got to my turkey. it's the first time in thanksgiving that i've never had anything called turkey, but that's okay. >> some of president trump's thanksgiving messages over the past three years, that's what we got. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." >> wait, wait, wait. he's complaining to troops. >> who are serving abroad. >> that are serving in afghanistan over the holidays that he did not get enough to

eat. i mean, you look -- he's complaining about not getting enough to eat. >> now. >> while they're serving america. that's -- i think that sums it up. >> that's it right there. it's monday, december 2nd. and with us we have white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lemire who turned 40 over thanksgiving. >> thanks, mika. >> what a child. >> the political reiter for "the new york times" and nbc political analyst nick confessore. host of politics nation and president of the nation action network reverend al sharpton. and u.s. national editor at the financial times, ed luce joins us as well. the impeachment hearing for president trump will shift from investigation to prosecution. they house judiciary gavels in on wednesday but do not expect the president to participate. the president heads overseas for

the upcoming nato hearing in london. he will be backing his domestic issues right along with him comflange they're happening. speaking of politics here at home, this morning there was one fewer democrat in the race for president. steve bullock announced moments ago that he is suspending his campaign. >> sad news about steve bullock for those of us who like steve very much and have great respect for him. i'm sure that's not the last we're going to hear from him before having him on "morning joe" to talk about that. mika, as we set up this week, it's going to be a very important week not only the history of the trump administration, but of this country, think about how telling it is that after two weeks of damning testimony day after day and after republicans are given a week to prepare, an additional week after those two weeks to prepare for the president's

defense, they were left yesterday parroting russian propaganda points about ukraine interfering in the 2016 election. mika, this is what's so damning. those russian propaganda talking points have already been knocked down and discredited by the united states 17 intel agencies. and the united states senate got a briefing from the intel community to tell them specifically that what john kennedy, what senator john kennedy of louisiana said yesterday on "meet the press" was not only a lie, but that it was active russian propaganda and had warned the senators that the russians had been pushing this propaganda line for years. so, i just think it's important after, again, if you haven't been paying much attention over

the past week because of the holidays, it's important to understand you saw two -- two really moving, important weeks of testimony and now the republicans are coming back, they still have no defense, and they're actually reduced now -- they're doing nothing but repeating russia propaganda points. as somebody said yesterday, if they do that, knowing the 17 intel agencies told them it was a lie and being warned in the united states senate, then actually they're not ignorant, that they've actually turned themselves into being russian assets. that's where we are as a nation as this week begins. >> as joe said, this will be a co consequential week in the impeachment hearing for president trump for that alone. today, the house intelligence committee will review a draft of

the impeachment report which will make the case for the removal of the president. tomorrow, the committee will vote to send the report to the house judiciary committee. then on wednesday, the house judiciary committee will hold its first impeachment hearing. the judiciary committee hin violat had invited president trump, but the white house informs us yesterday it will not participate. in a five-page letter to house judiciary chairman white house counsel wrote this. under the current circumstances we will not intend to participate in your wednesday hearing adding we cannot fairly be expected to participate in a hearing while the witnesses are yet to be named. and while it remains unclear whether the john kenneudiciary will afford them a process through the new hearings. the president will leave for the

annual nato summit today. the president tweeted on saturday, i will be representing our country in london in nato while the democrats horld lgt most ridiculous impeachment hearings in history. read the transcripts. nothing was said or done wrong. the radical left is undercutting our country. hearing scheduled on same dates as nato. while the house intelligence committee readies its impeachment report, republicansnerepublicans' defense of the president continued to get more creative. here's the top republican on the committee, and tom mcclintock of california yesterday defending president trump in his dealings with ukraine. >> if you believe that the president had used the power of his office to try to get ukraine to interfere with our elections, if you believed that, would that be an impeachable offense? >> i do not believe it so i'm not going to answer a

hypothetical in which it's designed to simply say that the president did something improper. he did nothing improper. there was nothing about a problematic giving aid to another country in which you're talking about corruption, which he's required do by law if the just so happened that the presidential's son had been getting a massive amount of money from a company that had been under investigation in which other witnesses that had been favorable to the democrats in the investigation had said needed to be looked at. this is a problem of overall proportion but there's nothing that the president did anything wrong and this is what we're going to move forward on. >> when you defend the president and think about these hearings, is there anything in your mind that the president did involving ukraine that is wrong or that concerns you in any way? >> well, he didn't use the delicate language of diplomacy in that conversation, that's true. he also doesn't use the smarmy talk of politicians. what you hear from donald trump is the blunt talk of a

businessman. he says what he means, he means what he says. that's the only thing that's remarkable in that conversation. but he was entirely with his constitutional authority and was following the statute that congress adopted in granting aid to the ukraine. >> ally -- >> he says what he means and he means what he says. >> he's lying. the dod had already said that they -- they were good with aid. they passed the aid. the dod state department both said they passed guidelines regarding corruption. what he just said was a lie and saying that's normal and send an unbelievably dangerous signal not only to politicians running for office this year but those who may run in the future. but you listen to both of those -- those comments, jonathan lemire, and i feel like

ralphy in a christmas story. i need an oval team decoder ring to figure out what the hell collins and mcclintock said. because you have a president who clearly says -- here's the deal, congress has given you guys almost $400 billion in military aid, defensive military aid, you've been invaded by putin but i'm not going to give it to you until you do a press conference that actually trashes my domestic rival. it's clear, it's straightforward. we have testimony and actually over the past week more news have come forward that actually shows it's even worse than what slond to sondland told us. there wasn't a second call. we'll get to that later. but, jonathan lemire, it seems after three weeks republicans have nothing to defend the president with other than word salad and russian talking points. help me -- tell me if i'm wrong. >> joe, you're right.

that is what -- >> oh, happy birthday, jonathan. >> that is what we have seen is that the republicans have been unable to defend the president on the facts so therefore they've had to come up with convolute the explanations. you've had the conspiracy theory from senator kentucky pushing that it was ukraine and not russia who interfered with the 2016 election even though of course every u.s. intelligence agency, every one, says it was russia. and you have a president himself who is now refusing to cooperate in the probe. let's not skip over this. what we've seen here is the white house counsel in that letter last night said that the white house would not participate, the president himself or lawyer won't be there on wednesday. they left the door open for perhaps future cooperation down the road in the proceedings. but they're going to do what they have done from the second part of the mueller probe and day one since the democrats took head of the house of investigations, they're going to stonewall. they're not going to play ball. they're going to not cooperate. they're going to try to have the

split screen image of the president overseas trying to conduct the people's business. his campaign likes the idea of him being on the road a lot in the weeks ahead showing him that he's governing while the democrats and their views are put back home playing politics and pursuing this impeachment matter. they're going to really try to up the stage craft these next couple of days while he is in london suggesting that he is the commander and chief. >> but jonathan, okay, but let's -- let's seg grregate thi between what he is doing. he puts his interest above of that the country, of that of the world. i mean, he comes first. we know that. baked into the cake. donald trump doesn't give a damn about what america looks like five years from now, ten years from now. baked into the cake. but what about these republicans? these so-called conservatives? people who stood by me as we fought against russian influence

and the spread of communism and fought for conservative values, we were told to be conservative was to be a guardian, to be a conservator, right? and yet you have republicans going on national television repeated putin talking points. and, again, i'm not saying this. the 17 intel agencies have said this and the united states senate even got a warning from the intel agencies. donald trump's intel agencies that this is propaganda that vladimir putin has been trying to push for the past several years. we know donald trump. we know that with donald trump all roads lead to moscow. all roads lead to putin. we know that. history will show that. i can say that this morning

completely comfortable, play this tape back ten years from now, i am right and anybody defending donald trump would be wrong on this point. the question is, why is the republican party, why are conservatives who blame to be against russian expansionism and authoritarianism, why are they willingly repeating russian talking points made up by an ex-kgb office centr? >> they have betrayed their values to support the president. it's the president trump tartru gop. putin said he's glad that the u.s. now stalking about ukraine in the election interference and not russian. we heard this congressmen do it during the hearings when fiona

hill spoke when she tried to knock down these conspiracy theories and the lies. they're carrying the president's water and vladimir putin's water and the president's going to keep going on with it because to this point there have been no defections. that's why they're playing this game with impeachment. they're not going to cooperate because they feel like they haven't lost any republicans and therefore he'll be able to stay in office. >> which brings us to the case of senator kennedy. for the second sunday in a row the louisiana republican argued that ukraine interfered in the 2016 u.s. elections in a contentious interview on "meet the press" yesterday, moderator chuck todd asked kennedy about a "washington post" op-ed which criticized kennedy's comments last week that ukraine was responsible for the dnc hack have some simply uttering this conflation on ukraine and russia, the inference is you're doing the president's dirty work here. do you accept that criticism? >> well, listen, i like michael

gerston. i haven't met him but i know he's a smart guy and i read his columns now and again. i disagree with him. i think both russia and ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. i think it's been well documented in the financial times and "politico" and the economist, in the "washington examiner," even on cbs. >> according to the "new york times" a couple weeks ago, u.s. senators were briefed that after fiona hill's testimony that actually this entire effort to frame ukraine for the russian meddling of 2016 of which you just made this case that they've done it, that actually this is an effort of russia propaganda. that is a russian propaganda campaign in order to get people like you to say these things about ukraine. they're trying to frame ukraine. you apparently were briefed about this in the united states senate by intelligence

officials. are you alt at all concerned yo doing russia intelligence work here? >> i was not briefed. russia was very aggressive and they're much more sophisticated. but the fact that russia was so aggressive does not kplexclude fact that president pore sear servingco actively worked for president clinton. >> come on. i got to put up -- you realize the only other person selling this argument outside the united states is this man, vladimir putin. this is what he said on november 20th. thank god nobody is accusing usny-mile-per-hour of interfering in u.s. elections. now they're accusing ukraine. well let them sort this out among themselves. you just accused the former president of ukraine -- you've done what the russian operation is trying to get american politicians to do. are you alt all concernt all co

you've been duped? >> no. just read the articles. >> ed luce, it's telling, again, this is a guy -- i'm sorry, this is a guy who went to oxford, who's well educated, who knows better. he knows the united states senate was warned several months ago not to push this russian propaganda. again, donald trump's intel agency, not any sort of deep state that rose out of the ground. and yet he's -- he's blaming the financial times, john den i cke he's saying if you just read the financial times then you'll understand why the 17 u.s. intel agencies and the intel briefers that went to the senate are wrong. that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. maybe since you write for the

financial times you can clarify for us. >> well, first of all, going to oxford is no defense, i should remind you both. johnson went to oxford. but i've been racking my brains as our colleagues as to which financial times reporting senator kennedy's referring to in support of this, you know, really fanciful conthaengs ukrai contention that ukraine meddled in the 2016 elections. i don't know if he did the same with the "washington post" and examiner and so forth. but it seems like he plucked those up in names out of thin air. >> you're in the financial -- you and editors of the financial times can find no article that that suggests that russia and ukraine meddled in the 2016 election? >> we can find plenty that show russia intervened in the 2016 election, but not that ukraine did. you know, we've done a lot of

reporting, as others have, on the owi the oligarch scene in ukraine and it's a corrupt country. but the idea that ukraine intervened in the 2016 election specifically is not something that senator kennedy can point to the financial times as supporting. and i'm not -- i'm not aware of any credible reporting on this subject. i think fiona hill was absolutely right when she said this is a conspiracy theory, an alternative reality that was cooked up in the kremlin and from farm to fork is now coming out of senator kennedy's mouth. >> wow. >> how striking is it for you, ed luce, to watch a united states senator actually parrot putin's talking points and doing exactly what the intel community warned him and warned other senators against doing? what does that say about where

we are on monday of the week that we are moving forward on the impeachment of the american president? that this is the republicans' best defense? >> i have to say it's profoundi disparitying. one half of the white house is pair rogt parroting a moon barking conspiracy theory about the 2016 election, that's very alarming. but on another level, unsurprising because as jonathan and you were pointing out, this is -- this is an impeachment process where there are very, very few defenses of the president's actions. we began with that partial transcript and from then on which was pretty much clear in terms of the quid pro quo

implicitly on offer there. and from then on we've had, you know, 17 or so witnesses just bolstering the view that that was a quid pro quo. so what is it that they can attack? they can attack the process, which they're trying to do by refusing to cooperate. and they can just try to throw enough dust in our eyes so that we get confused and think oh, russia, ukraine, they're all pretty much the same and each side's as bad as each other. it seems to be working with their base and that's why i don't think at the moment people are predicting there's going to be any republican defections when it comes to the senate trial. >> so -- so, reverend al, let's expand beyond the republican party and talk about registered republicans. what does it say about a party that for 50 years claimed to

believe like i believe, that the long way to light struggle against the soviet union was extraordinarily important and that the wall coming down in 1989 and democracy spreading across europe was one of the great days of our lives? what does -- what does it say that this party now not only embraces a president, but backs a president's and a party's defense of this -- this extortion, this rigging of the presidency in 2020 as well as the embrace of vladimir putin's talking points? politicians before trump would have had their careers destroyed on a sunday afternoon if they had repeated the lies that senator kennedy repeated yesterday on "meet the press."

>> it says that they are really being tricked and conned by a manhattan con man, donald trump. one of the things that struck me this weekend as tourists came to new york see rockefeller center, celebrate jonathan's 40th birthday, that they be careful of not people not far from trump towers that engage in three ward monty where they take your money by having you looking at the wrong card with a stone or whatever they put under the card in the is what we saw on talk shows yesterday by republican leaders. they are discussing whether ukraine was involved in supporting hillary clinton, which is not what is in front of the congress and the senate. what is in front of the congress and senate is whether the president of the united states donald trump withheld military aid to get them to announce some

smearing of his opponent. we're not even in front of the senate in front of all of what happened in '16. nothing happened in terms of ukraine and hillary clinton, but even if they had, that's not what we're looking at. but in the three card monty game, you get them to look at the other card so you can get away with their money. and that's what he's doing. he's having us discuss something that is not before the intelligence committee, not before the judiciary committee, look at the other card so i can steal your money. the subject this week, mr. trump, is you withheld u.s. congress sanctioned aid to ukraine who was under threat under russia to smear joe biden through smearing his son. that's the issue. all it this fantasy about hillary and ukraine and all of that has nothing to do with the proceedings in front of us and the public ought not be robbed

on time square a mile from your house by playing to the wrong card. there's nothing under that card. the stone is under the card where you got on the phone and tried to get the president of ukraine to smear your potential opponent. let's stay focused here. >> but nick confessore, it's a willing con. the victims are willfully being t conned. they want to be conned. a poll this weekend, members of the republican party say that donald trump is a better president than abraham lincoln. the president who saved the union versus the president who has run up the biggest debt in u.s. history, the president who has capitulated to kim jong-un, the president who time and time again has put his interests ahead of the interests of the

country. i mean, it's just one poll. it's just one snapshot in time. but i can also show you other polls that show that republican -- rank and file republicans approval of vladimir putin rose exponentially after donald trump became president of the united states. and in some of those polls, republicans have better opinions of vladimir putin than hillary clinton or barack obama. >> well, joe, what we're seeing here is actually an outgrowth of a long-term trend in american politics. and what's fascinating with the gop here is that they are borrowing putin's conspiracy theory but also his tactics. there's a book out of russia about life under putin's russia, it's called if anything is possible and nothing is true. and that is life in russia, where everything is conspiracy

theories and hurricamurk. and i think in a strange way what we see in that poll is what's happening in american politics, is that the only important principle is fealty and strength. it's not about the issue. even on immigration some days. it's about showing people like us on the set that there isn't anything we say or do or bring to light anything that matters. the only thing that matters is staying loyal to the president from the senate to the house on down. >> but mika, this begs the question, again, we understand who donald trump is. the entire world now knows who donald trump is. they know that he's capable of absolutely anything and will do absolutely anything that he's allowed to do. he believes that article two gives him unprecedented power. he has said it publicly. >> yeah. >> he would do -- there is -- you cannot imagine a scenario

that donald trump would not -- would not engage in. >> right. >> if he were allowed to get away with it. so we -- we know that. but is it asking too much for one republican senator to speak out against russian propaganda being spouted by a colleague? is it too much to ask ben sasse to take to the floor today and speak out against russian propaganda being pushed by members of his party? is it too much to ask mitt romney? mitt romney has all the money he will ever need. mitt romney has all the money he will ever need. he can get re-elected for as long as he wants to get re-elected. is it asking too much for mitt romney to go to the senate floor today and condemn colleagues who are using active russian measures to push vladimir

putin's propaganda on sunday talk shows without remorse, without apology. is it asking too much for mitt romney or ben sasse or susan collins or cory gardner or march that mcsally or jody ernst or any republican, i'll take any republican senator to say, it's just not right for to us actually promote vladimir putin's propaganda policies when we go on national television. it's -- we cannot be that party. is that too much? apparently, mika, not one republican senator, not one, will speak out against this. not one. >> fair to say it's their job and they're not doing their job.

still ahead on "morning joe," recent polling showed joe biden trailing mayor pete in iowa. now the same thing is happening in new hampshire too. we're going to run through the numbers. but first, let's go right to bill karins way check on the forecast. a lot going on. >> we're still trying to get people home from the holidays. we have schools canceled, flights canceled yesterday, a thousand of them across the country. today we have 50 million people under winter storm warnings and in the appalachians and awe through interior new england. as far as the travel implications, driving the new york state freeway is a mess. heavy snow out there now. later today the hudson valley will get the snow. as far as the airports go, we'll have albany and hartford in that too. the timing of this, the snow over the hudson valley will establish itself in the morning. we will see a brief period of heavier snow in new york city this afternoon. we could get 1 to 3 inches in areas like central park. then tonight, tonight tomorrow,

the heavy snow shifts into eastern new england. tomorrow morning the worst of the snow will be over boston up to portland. as far as snow amounts go, it looks like weapon could see an additional 6 inches up to maine. philadelphia to new york city, 1 to 3 inches. but interior areas of new jersey could get nailed. we're not done with the storm yet. thousands of schools are canceled in new england tomorrow and the cleanup's not over yet. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. et. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. man 1 vo: proof of less joint pain woman 1 oc: this is my body of proof. and clearer skin. man 2 vo: proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... woman 2 vo: ...with humira. woman 3 vo: humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain,

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awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. simple. easy. awesome. call, click or visit a store today. hey, welcome back to "morning joe." you're looking at the white house where the president of the united states is actually into his fourth hour or fifth hour of being awake this morning. he's going to be going to great

britain at 9:00 a.m. and, ed luce, let's talk about the nato summit and the president going to great britain. and what you expect not only from the summit, but also its possible impact on the upcoming election there. >> yeah, as you know, the british election is the following week so trump's going to be there just eight days before this really important general election. and he's got a long history of intervening in british politics. has to be said, the disapproval rating of trump in britain is extremely high. so although trump wants boris johnson's conservatives to win the election, boris johnson has delicately asked him not to say anything while he's on british soil. because that immediately gets taken down and used against the conservatives, trump's support for the conservatives by jeremy corbyn, the labor leader. in terms of nato, britain is

hosting this 70th anniversary of this extraordinary unique military afliens globlliance in you have macron, the french president, describing nato as suffering from brain death. and he attributed the brain death of nato to the fact that america has turned its back on europe. and this has enraged trump. there used to be this bromance between macron and trump. that's clearly dead. and then of course erdogan. turkey's leader has breached all nato rules with, you know, the apparent nudge and wink from the white house to buy these russian missiles, the s-400 missiles, and put them in place. and erdogan himself is now calling macron brain dead. so you've got a very, very

disun -- ununified nato on its 70th anniversary and it's being staged on the eve of a british again election that trump could -- that trump could influence. which is something he's very, very likely to do. the one thing he can't rhode island resist is temptation. >> let me ask you briefly, what's the outlook for that general election? i saw a clip where jeremy corbyn would not tell an interviewer whether he would vote for brexit or not if there were a revote. >> think it's because of his incompetence and other factors as a labor leader that boris johnson's conservatives are probably going to win. there's also the context of this terrorist attack, this knife attack on london bridge a few days ago that boris johnson's

rather incredulously attempting to blame on previous labor governments, on tony blair, in fact. but he's making political hay out of that attack by saying the terrorist was on early release program and shouldn't have been released. >> okay. all right. we will hold that thought. and coming up, there's more. rudy giuliani has repeatedly been in the news for his role in the ukraine scandal. but ukraine only skims the surface of his influence within the trump administration. we'll talk about why the president's personal attorney should perhaps be looked at more closely next on "morning joe." e closely next on "morning joe." ♪

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according to documents reviewed "the new york times," at the same time rudy giuliani was trying to dig up dirt on the bidens, he was privately pursuing hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from ukrainian government officials. giuliani has repeatedly said that he has no business in ukrab a ukraine and none of the deals were finalize.

however documents indicate he was exploring financial agreements with the same ukrainian officials he was pushing to investigate trump's political rivals. in an interview on wednesday, giuliani played down the discussions saying that a ukrainian official approached him this year seeking to hire him personally. giuliani said he dismissed that suggestion but spent about a month considering a separate deal with the ukrainian government. he then rejected that idea. joining us now, state attorney for palm beach county dave ehrenberg on this. just overall, david, seems like he's flown a tad bit close to the sun. is there any chance at all rudy giuliani will be charged with anything? >> i think so, mika. you know, the rule is if you're in a hole, stop digging. but for rudy giuliani, it's buy a bigger shovel. he's his own worst enemy. he continues to make these incriminating statements. he continues to do interviews and butt dial reporters and he even wants to start his own

impeachment podcast. it would be a terrible idea for him. the subpoenas that were sent out show that the federal government is looking at charges of potential money laundering and conspiracy to defraud the united states and obstruction of justice. i think ultimately if and when he is charged, it will be for the low-hanging fruit of violations of the foreign agent registration act and campaign finance crimes like his associates lev and igor who i think will ultimately testify against him. and the first one that gets to the u.s. attorney's office is going to get the best deal. >> there you go. lev and igor. jonathan lemire. >> let's focus in on lev, lev parnas. talk to us about his background. he has some ties to florida where i know you are now. and also are you at all surprised from what you know about him and his acts prior to this whether he would flip on rudy giuliani? >> yeah. first, happy birthday, jonathan. >> thank you. >> yeah. now, as far as leif av and igor

when rudy giuliani was asked if they would flip on him he said good luck like the old mob boss back in the days when he would prosecute these guys. but lev parnas has a history of financial disputes and if you talked to people in florida he has a reputation of being a charmer. someone who may charm you out of your money. he's one of these guys who attends a wedding thinking all the envelopes are for him. i don't think that loyalty would be his strongest suit here. i wouldn't put all my stock in lev parnas and i think it's not going to end well for rudy giuliani. he didn't do the backgrounds that he should have done. >> david, i want you to put on your hat as someone with experience in white collar crime and prosecution and evaluate giuliani as a potential perpetrator here. this is a guy who in the face of this investigation with all this

scrutiny has continued to do the things that got him in trouble in the first place. where have you seen that kind of behavior before and is it common in these investigations or these cases? >> yeah, it is common. rudy giuliani is definitely flying too close to the sun here. i mean, you've got a situation where lev and igor have convinced him that there are serious conspiracies going on and are ready to flip on him. it shouldn't be a surprise. because, remember, lev and igor seem to be a flight risk and they got pretrial release and bond. why is that? because the prosecutors seem to think that from the beginning they would cooperate. that's why, despite the fact they're from the former soviet union and despite the fact they were caught with one-way tickets to vienna that they were allowed pretrial release with a very high bond. but that, to me, says that prosecutors from the beginning thought they would flip on rudy giuliani. they've got the goods on him. as i said before, i don't think it's going to end well.

he put his stock in people who were seen as really as sort of con artists down in south florida. and it went right up to the president of the united states. the president had bought what rudy giuliani was selling and rudy giuliani was relying on two people who should not have been listened to. and it's not going to end well for any of them. >> dave ehrenberg, thank you very much. rev, you know rudy giuliani, right? >> i know him. we foughtor years a for years. the irony of this is we met rudy giuliani as the southern district's u.s. attorney. >> that's right. >> who used to go after people for things like this and used to give people that would cooperate with his office to get people like this. so the riernirony when i see le igor, i'm seeing all the case that's looked for the levs and igors back in the '80s to help him with his cases. it's like joe and i were taught

in sunday school, that a man sows that he shall also reap. maybe that's what we're look at here. >> i've known him for decades and didn't agree with him a lot, but thought he had some good leadership skills, especially during 9/11. >> i've never agreed with him and i fought with him. but i do think over time here's a guy that could have gone out america's mayor, something that many of us on the other side felt he didn't deserve. >> yeah. >> and he's done a much better job of bringing that down and dismantling that that we could have ever imagined. >> you know what's amazing to me, mika, is how cynical he's become. only because i remember talking to him in 2015 when donald trump was just starting to campaign. he wasn't on donald trump's side. in fact, he would -- he would be

critical, not harshly critical. >> right. >> and he certainly wouldn't mock donald trump the way kellyanne conway would mock donald trump when we're off camera. he had observations about donald trump that were pretty tough and did not think he was equipped to be president of the united states. and he said so. that of course all changed when he figured it was his chance to be relevant again. but, again, the question i ask, you know, whether you're talking about rudy giuliani or senator kennedy or republicans silently sitting back and allowing their party to be overtaken by russian propaganda that the intel community has warned them about, that's 17 of trump's intel agencies have told them are lies. you ask at what price. >> real. >> i if we want to talk about

bible versus what does it gain a man if he gains the world but loses his own soul? and i'm not talking spiritual soul. let's just talk about political soul. what -- at what price is the sacrifice of your beliefs, your reputation, your values, your legacy for a man who's going to be out of office in a year? i don't understand it. i never will. >> i can't get my head around to. coming up, a msnbc poll ccn poll came out last week showing support for president trump since last money. republicans have tried to spin that as good news for the president, but perhaps they need a reality check. steve kornacki is going to join us to weigh in on those numbers. "morning joe" is back in a moment. on those nuermbs. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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ed luce, just to wrap a bow in the last hour, what's so fascinating is so many of these people that are willing to repeat, let's say, russian propaganda to protect the president are the same ones who in 2015 and 16 were saying that donald trump was a cancer on the presidency saying, like lindsey graham, he was unfit to be president of the united states. rudy giuliani saying off camera that he was unfit to be president of the united states. and now here we find ourselves in sacrificing the constitution, conservatism, and the country in defense of this con man. >> yeah, i mean, rick perry's one who stand out for me, just leaving the job as energy secretary. he was the one who described trump as a cancer on the system and he goes out with an interview last week describing trump as having been put in the white house by god. you use the word cynicism on the last segment. you can do this with every

single one of them. mick mulvaney, jim jordan, devin nunes, all of them are on the record as having said fairly accurate things about trump. >> hey, ed, since we're talking about vladimir putin, why don't we bring up kevin mccarthy, republican minority leader of the house who actually said to his -- in a republican caucus in 2016 that history would show that donald trump was being paid off by vladimir putin. >> and that's the thing, you know, to say that he's a russian asset is therefore now if you extrapolate from kevin mccarthy's words to say that the entire gop is a russian asset. >> well, all right, ed, thank you so much. we look forward to having you back with us a good bit, especially as the election draws nearer. mika. >> all right, ed luce, thank you. a new round of impeachment hearings are set to kick off

this week and while the white house says it will not participate, republicans still trying to come one new ways to defend the president. that's coming up. plus, to fight or not to fight? that's the question mark leibovich is asking in his new piece that looks at how the democratic presidential candidates are taking on their fellow white house hopefuls. we're back in just a moment. fellow white house hopefuls. we're back in just a moment. (contemplative synth music) - [narrator] forget about vacuuming for up to a month. shark iq robot deep-cleans and empties itself into a base you can empty once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around, it cleans row by row. if it's not a shark, it's just a robot. every year, our analysts visit thousands of companies, in a multitude of countries, where we get to know the people that drive a company's growth

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the first person who needs to testify is adam schiff. adam schiff is the author of this report and been the author of many things, a lot of them to be found false over the last couple years. he's compared himself in the past to a special counsel. if we go back to clinton and even back to nixon, but in clinton ken starr was the special counsel, he presented a report that we're going to get in the judiciary, he came and sat and testified under oath and took questions from all sides, including the white house. i have a question, why are they hiding this struff fruff from u?

if they think they have a case, give us the materials and don't let jerry nadler write a letter saying we don't know who your witnesses are. we don't have the information from the intel committee yet there is high this is a problematic exercise and made for tv event coming on wednesday. >> as the impeachment proceedings shift to the house judiciary committee this week, the panel's ranking republican congressman doug collins says he wants to hear from house against committee chairman adam schiff and is complaining that wednesday's hearing gives republicans too little time to study the intelligence committee's impeachment report. welcome back to "morning joe." it's monday, december 2nd. still with us, we have white house reporter for "the associated press," jonathan lemire. political writer for "the new york times" and msnbc political analysts knick consanick confes

reverend al sharpton and author of the red and the blue, steve kornacki. and washington bureau chief for usa today, susan page. and chief national correspondent "the new york times" magazine, marc leibovich is with us. the latest cnn shows an unchanged opinion on public support of impeachment and removal from office. this stagnant result comes within the time frame of the first round of public impeachment hearings. however, half of americans still want the president impeached and removed from office. those numbers come in stark contrast with president clinton's impeachment numbers. the peak of public support for impee impeaching and removal clinton from office in 1998 only rose to 29% according to the polling. what you to think those numbers? the white house seems to be happy with him? >> again, i just -- again, so

we're starting an important week in the impeachment proceedings. i think it's very important to look at the republicans' arguments and we covered the first argument, the first defense. there retort to two weeks of incredibly compelling testimony from american patriots, people who have dedicated their lives to work quietly to defend this country and promote this country's values across the globe. their response to that is parroting vladimir putin's propaganda talking points, that donald trump's 17 intel agencies warned them against doing. and the second argument is, steve kornacki, that 50% of americans want donald trump removed from office. like a majority of americans want donald trump removed from office. 21% higher number than bill

clinton, at any point bill clinton had in that impeachment investigation and vote. you go inside the numbers, it's, again, it's striking just how high those numbers are even compared to richard nixon for the first year and a half of water gate. >> yeah, clearly the difference between now and bill clinton there are was a national consensus with it came to bill clinton two decades ago. was that folks did not want him impeached and removed. it was clear in the polling from beginning to end. also a difference in six son there, the polling we have with donald trump and nixon is the polling did change overtime significantly with richard nixon. by the end of that process, july, early august, 1974, you could find polling that showed two-thirds majority supporting impeaching and removing nixon. if you average together all the different polls out there right now on this question of impeaching and removing trump,

it's 48% support impeaching and removing, 46% oppose. and the 2016 popular vote was 48% hillary clinton, 46% donald trump. and so it really feels like the difference between now and bill clinton, the difference between now and richard nixon is that very basic, very deep polarized divide in this country that defined the 2016 campaign really has endured for three years and it's rearing its head now in this impeachment polling. >> well, susan page, you talk about damning with faint praise, trumpists that are going out trying to defend the president over the past week or so have been saying the impeachment inquiry has been a debacle for nancy pelosi, it has backfired against nancy pelosi. oh, look at these polls. let's look at the polls. one out of two americans believe that what donald trump did regarding ukraine requires him to be impeached and removed from office. those numbers are

extraordinarily high in this constitutional republic. and republicans are so desperate, they're actually having to take that as a victory. >> well, you know, it's clear that this is an extraordinary number, you're right, half of americans want to impeach and remove the president. but it's also clear that it hasn't moved. and if you want to look at why it is unlikely that democrats will get a single republican vote in the house in favor of impeachment and why we may or may not see any republicans in the senate voting to remove the president from auchs after an impeachment trial, it reflects that public opinion they're look at. if you were going to move opinion among congressional republicans, you need to move it in their districts in the place where it would matter most to them. so it just reflects a political system that is now -- it seems to be set in concrete. what could happen that would shake this either convince democrats that the president shouldn't be impeached or

convince republicans that he should? it is hard to imagine what that would be. >> well, former vice president joe biden launched an eight-day bus tour of iowa over the weekend pledging that he will win the states state's february caucuses. despite recent polls that suggest otherwise, biden was optimistic telling a few hundred supporters, quote, we're gonna win this race and we're gonna beat donald trump and we're going to change america. meanwhile, biden's aide acknowledged he must sharpen his message and bolster outreach ahead of the caucuses. they incite biden has a lot of support and well positioned to recover any lost ground. the latest emerson poll shows joe biden falling ten points in new hampshire, now trailing both senator bernie sanders and mayor pete buttigieg. senator sanders rose 13 points to lead the field at 26%. buttigieg follows with 22% after climbing 11 from september.

bide on and senator elizabeth warren are tied with 14% each and congresswoman tulsi gabbard and andrew yang round out the list of leading candidates. pete buttigieg really gaining steam, joe. >> so let's look at this poll and keep this poll up for a second. so, steve kornacki, there's so many things to look at here. fwhu number one, bernie sanders exploding. this is a guy who for the past four or five months has just sort of been floating along, no up or downs. but here he's exploding upward in this poll, probably in part because the second huge story here, elizabeth warren is going down. why am i saying that elizabeth warren is so important? we'll get to rev in a second on this. after -- after iowa, new hampshire, we go to south carolina where joe biden can expect a lot of support from older black voters.

and that's something that elizabeth warren doesn't have. i've got to say, looking at these numbers, it is -- she has had a fairly grim fall after having a wonderful spring and summer, steve kornacki. but this poll, it's only one poll, but doesn't this match up with a lot of data that suggests that since she has gone deep on explaining her medicare for all proposal, her numbers have really dipped? >> yeah. sometimes there is such a thing in politics as peaking too soon. it was early october elizabeth warren actually overtook joe biden briefly. it lasted two days, but she overtook him nationally as the front runner in the average of all polls. and what happens when you suddenly become a front runner in a presidential race, especially if you didn't enter as the front runner? you get scrutiny and questions from your opponents, questions from the press, heat at debates, you get a spotlight that you

didn't have before. we've seen this many times before in politics, democratic and republican primaries, it seems like elizabeth warren got a taste of that spotlight, voters got a look at her in that spotlight and the race changed. she has fallen back. there's an opportunity for her to bounce back. we've seen candidates bounce back before after getting scrutiny, but it's opened up the door for buttigieg to surge. i think you're right. when you look at bernie sanders, it's weird to say somebody that had all that support in 2016, he's been a forgotten man of this race and every poll you take there in new hampshire he's in the game. in iowa he's not that far out of it. it's a state he did well in in 2016. and it remains true, if sanders could ever put together a win in iowa, i could easily see him rolling that into new hampshire and if sanders wins iowa and new hampshire, could be formidable after that. >> reverend al, despite all of joe biden's problems, his missteps, his poor debate performances, it looks like --

i'm curious what you think because you know about this especially south carolina, so much better than i do, but it seems that right now as we move into december these early states are lining up how joe biden needs them to line up if he is to survive iowa and new hampshire. if buttigieg wins iowa, if sanders wins new hampshire, we have a complete reset. and then you come down -- of course you've got nevada where biden's doing really well. but most people are focusing on south carolina. and it's one of the strange things about this competition, this democratic field. but of the 20 or so candidates, the only one that has a real connection with older african-american voters. if you look at the polls, it's joe biden. >> you're absolutely right looking at the polls and looking from my own travels around and talking to people.

i think that one of the things the godfather james brown told me is there's a difference between star power and staying power. you can shock people for a minute and are be a star but that doesn't mean you'll have staying power. i think bind and sanders to a degree has done that. they have had a core group that no one has been able to convince that group to go another way. the problem i think the candidates are having, both mayor pete as well as elizabeth warren and others in terms of african-american voters in south carolina is that they have not come up with a compelling argument on why they should leave joe biden, who they know, who was barack obama's vice president. so even though i have some questions about joe biden and the crime bill, i have questions about you, bernie sanders, who voted for it or you mayor pete who may have mishandled or at least was confusing on a police

brutality case in south bend. >> right. >> or any number of situations. there's been no real reason, a compelling reason, for them to leave joe biden. and he has staying power because he has a long enough track record for people to say, well, he made some mistakes but generally i'm more comfortable with him, i know him. and let me tell you, it's not just older blacks, joe, he does one strange thing about younger blacks. they all are the children of older blacks who, in the arguments in the thanks giving table can have some influence on him. >> yeah. so let's -- let's talk also about kamala and cory. obviously those two senators, kamala harris and cory booker both thought that they were going to do well in south carolina. both thought, you know, kamala's team was actually talking about

an sec pac-10 strategy where they win the deep south and the west coast. well, the deep south certainly not working out for cory booker or for kamala harris. any insight into why that is happening? >> i think that you've got to first deal with the fact that the overwhelming desire that i'm hearing everywhere i go particularly in south carolina is that they want the candidate that can beat donald trump. and i don't think that any one of -- either one of them, as impressive as they are and as much as i think they're gifted as given the reason to the voters that i'm the one that can take trump down. don't forget, barack obama became viable even to black voters after he won iowa, which fru proved he could get votes even beyond his base and there fore he was electable. and i think the biggest problem for kamala harris and cory

booker people are saying i like them, i'm impressive i wish my aunt was like her or my nephew was like him, by don't know if they can beat donald trump and i can't risk four more years of this. >> so you see that and you see people going i can't take any chances right now,on that lemire, except then you see pete buttigieg, who, i would think because of his ainge, evge, evea a very brilliant, multitalented, you would think they wouldn't want to take a chance on him and he's in the top tier in two states. >> there are two things that remain, his age, lock of support and lock of experience. his rise has been steady and he's clearly well positioned for iowa and new hampshire. joe, i'm surprised in light of the alabama score over the weekend i'm surprised you made an sec reference there. but i'll go to -- >> that was pointed -- >> i'm going to answer that. by the way, congratulations to auburn. >> amazing. >> a lot of people texting me

and very upset about the field goaltend of the half. yes, it doesn't make sense but guess what? if you have var, things like that are going to happen. one other thing to, i love the tide, right? but if you give up over 90 points. >> right. >> to your top two sec rivals, your argument for getting into the championship, the playoffs, win or lose, sort of goes out the window. so a really impressive year and coach saban is an extraordinary coach. they just -- they just got to figure out how to stop letting teams like lsu and auburn score 45, 46 points. nothing good's going to ever come out of that. >> no, they need help on the defensive end. mark leibovich, speaking of football, let's not talk about the patriots game last night and instead let's talk about your new piece, which is entitled 2020 democratic candidates wage escalating fight. talk to us a little bit about what you wrote there and the merits of fighting.

when candidates, say buttigieg and warren have taken different approaches in terms of fighting within the democratic party themselves, but also donald trump. >> essentially it was a story i wrote over the weekend for the times and it's about the nature of fighting itself, political fighting it self. it's a style piece in a way that joe biden, pete buttigieg, you know, mainly in the democratic field are sort of seen as a last combat within the field. they're using language that's more unified and they talking before about bringing the country together as to others who are getting bigger crowds who have had momentum at various stages of the race who have taken on a more emotional, more satisfying to their base view. and it's sort of broken down as a kind of divide in the party about what kind of style to take. and there's the question of is

america just tired of all the tig fighting altogether and despite the revulsion that democrats have for trump, maybe we just want to change the channel as pete buttigieg would say and take an approach that's much more -- i guess the cliché would be healing. verses do we want to go right at them and punch them in the nose? >> nick. >> if you appear below the surface of the rhetoric here and the style, are the candidates preaching kind of unity and healing fundamentally different on their policies and ideology? is there a divide under the style divide about the erection of the party? >> i think in some ways yes. i think in this case with sanders and warren the divide kind of tracks along progressive versus, you know, candidates that might be perceived as more moderate. because i think sanders and warren are more progressive candidates. but in general, look, you go to a biden rally, buttigieg rally and the temperature is way down.

yes, there's enthusiasm for both candidates from the supporters. both of them have proven to be very formidable and they've hung around and buttigieg has risen in the last several weeks. but i think also there's a level of -- i wouldn't want to sayer is say serenity, but there's a more sort of solid passion for the candidate and also just some real anxiety about whether in the general election people -- if they want to beat donald trump, whether, you know, whether elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are the candidates who can do that. >> it's interesting you talked about serenity. i'm sure if we use that people -- i mock the use of that term for people at those rallies. i will say that in 2008 when i was going around iowa and i talked to obama supporters, they all had a smile on their face. there was no anger. they were excited. they come you are here and say

i'm a republican and this is the first democrat i'm going to ever caucus for. i'm an independent, he makes me feel so good about my country. i'm a democrat and i -- i don't line up with him perfectly but i just feel good when i'm at his rallies and i feel like america can do better and we're going to do better with this guy. there was that positive feeling. and i go back to when you talk about the merits of fighting, i go back to kamala harris being harshly critical at times of joe biden. secretary castro egraggressive h going after joe biden. that seemed to blow up in their faces politically. it seems to me as much as democrats want to beat a bully, they're not so sure that the best way to beat that bully is by putting somebody else out there that's being combative. >> yeah. this goes in some ways to the broader notion of optimism in american politics. you saw it with john f. kennedy

and ronald reagan. even though these are such bitterly divisive times and even though there is such seeming unity among democrats to defeat donald trump, you still do see a linger and sort of enduring appetite for a positive message which i think, you know, the biden people and the buttigieg people would say they are really striving for. whereas, again, the warren and sanders divide, there's more than four candidates, but these are the four at the front of the field, they would say, look, no, this is a fight and we see this as a fight and we are going treat this as just this on going brawl in terms of what we're trying to get down here. and we see donald trump's unpopularity as an opportunity to actually, you know, win in a way that might be more progressive than democrats normally might be trying for. >> mark leibovich, thank you very much. we'll be reading your new piece for "the new york times" magazine. jonathan lemire. >> steve, a question for you about a name we didn't see on

the polls, michael bloomberg had the his ads are inescapable. you see him seemingly every commercial break. he's only been in the race for a week or so. when do you think we'll able to tell if he's picked up any traction necessary specially for a campaign where he's running that's unorthodoxed. how long is it going to take for us to know whether he's making any impact at all? >> the added complication of that question. let's say it starts having an impact in some of these states, he's not targeting the early states. he's not contesting the iowa caucuses, new hampshire, nevada, south carolina. the idea here is to jump start his campaign after the first four. >> i don't know how does he it. >> so that's the question. even if he starts getting some 5%, 10% in some of these states and we say bloomberg's moving up, what happens with his name is not on the board in iowa? in new hampshire? we're talking about a version of democrats fighting right now, we've seen this in the past. the last time democrats did

this, 2004 when democrats needed a nominee go against an incumbent they badly wanted to beat, george w. bush, you saw that version of fighting take the form of unit at this time. . as soon as john kerry won iowa, the party began moving around him, he won practically every other state after that. there's a part of me saying is this the year we have the broker convention in first four candidates win the first four states? and there's a part of me that says is anybody going to win iowa and say good enough, let's get behind this person and beat trump? >> but, susan page, i've been hearing over the past several weeks talk of a possible broker convention, you hear that every four years. but let's go through the calendar and assume that things stay about the same as they are now, which there's no reason to believe that. but if they did you'd have buttigieg winning iowa, probably bernie winning new hampshire, biden winning south carolina, everything -- nevada up for grabs. and then suddenly you're going

into super tuesday where michael bloomberg's been spending 30, 32, $33 million in advertising and it's a reset. you go into super tuesday where 40% of the delegates are being awarded and no candidate but michael bloomberg's able to advertise in all those super tuesday states, suddenly it seems anything is in fact possible and possibility of a brokered convention actually could -- could go up a bit. >> you know, yit's not impossible. that's the landscape and time terrible and scenario that would present an opportunity for michael bloomberg. so we have this early super tuesday bigger than ever super tuesday including california which has so many of the delegates that democrats will be sending to the convention next summer. on other hand, you said if things stay the same, we've got this period where it's hard to

imagine things will stay the same. for one thing, mayor bloomberg will not be participating in the next debate. he's probably not going to qualify for debates for a while, if ever. then you start to have the news overtaken by who actually gets votes in these early states. and that changes everything. reverend al made what i think say really crucial point that barack obama became the credible nominee when he started to win. when he won in iowa, when he showed he could win in a state that wasn't necessarily that friendly to him. that sis a threshold that pete buttigieg could get over in iowa, questions about his age and his experience, the fact that he would be a ground-breaking candidate in terms of his sexual orientation. he could answer those questions with a big victory in a state like iowa, and that changes the landscape going up to super tuesday in ways we could only speculate about now. >> you know, reverend al, the reason why i don't believe that

victories in iowa and new hampshire will propel a candidate like -- whether it's elizabeth warren or mayor pete or bernie sanders into a south carolina victory and a big victory on super tuesday is, you know, based on what you and other leaders have said. mayor pete, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders are not -- they just haven't connected with the black community in those states. and let me say it again, because we just need to say it, because it is a political reality. that it's actually mayor pete's sexual orientation that is just one thing that may get in his way in south carolina and on super tuesday for a lot of older black voters. >> i think that one of the things that is very clear, when we say that the early voting

stage ought not be states that do not represent the diversity of the party, and particularly the black voting base that is needed for anyone to be nominated there are is the problem. you have both iowa and new hampshire that has no real black or brown community that are the starting gate. so if there are victories there by any of those you've named, to many voters it's going to be that's expected. the real challenge is going to be when they get to south carolina and the fact it is not just the homophobia in the black community, because there's homophobia in the white community, it's the fact that there's the cultural connection that many that are progressives, the latte liberals i always talk about, that they just don't relate to many of us that we feel that comfort level. we know when you go to church on sunday and you can't clap on the beat that we're on the one-four and you're on a two-five beat,io

know you haven't been to church too often. even though the politics may good, we aren't comfortable with you because we don't feel you understand us and feel us. i think that's the problem some progressives have and don't want to admit. >> by the way, rev, that's something, and i've always said in politics, you know the second you walk into a room whether that room is welcoming or not. whether you are at home or not. and i have seen some of these progressives walk into black churches before and it is -- when they speak in the churches it is like fingernails on a chalkboard. compare that to, say, bill clinton or barack obama and, oh, what a huge difference that is. >> absolutely. and people vote for people that they're comfortable with and that people that they feel have an understanding, even if they come to a different political

conclusion then we start off where we understand each other and that we can relate to the same world view and the same reality. but when i think you're looking at the world through different eyes and a different reality, i think even if your conclusion is right, your premise is not the premise i start from. >> okay. susan page, steve kornacki, thank you both for being on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," president trump's call with ukraine's leader is at the heart of the impeachment probe, but now it's a different call involving the president that's generating big questions such as did it even happen? our legal analysts are here to break down that key part of the equation next on "morning joe." equation next on "morning joe." e than me: jd power. 448,134 to be exact. they answered 410 questions in 8 categories about vehicle quality. and when they were done, chevy earned more j.d. power quality awards across cars, trucks and suvs than any other brand

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he borrowed billions donald trump failed as a businessman. and left a trail of bankruptcy and broken promises. he hasn't changed. i started a tiny investment business, and over 27 years, grew it successfully to 36 billion dollars. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. i'm running for president because unlike other candidates, i can go head to head with donald trump on the economy, and expose him fo what he is: a fraud and a failure.

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every day, comcast business is helping businesses go beyond the expected. to do the extraordinary. take your business beyond. so he goes, he asks met question what do you want i keep hearing all these things, what do you want? he finally gets me -- i don't know him very well.

i have not spoken to him very much. had is not a man i know well. seems like a nice guy, though. i say to the ambassador in response, i want nothing. i want nothing. i want no quid pro quo. tell zelensky, president zelensky, to do the right thing. so here's my answer. i want nothing. i want nothing. i want no quid pro quo. tell zelensky to do the right thing. then he says, this is the final word from the president of the united states. i want nothing. >> president trump said something to the effect that there's no quid pro quo. do you know what prompted him to say that? you asked him what do you want and he goes directly to there's thereis no quid pro quo as opposed to going directly to the list of things that he wanted. what prompted him to use that term? >> i have no clue. >> did you discuss your texts from ambassador taylor with president trump before he made that statement?

>> i did not. i asked a very open-ended question, what you to want from ukraine. >> i know we've asked this before as well, about who needs to write down in big letters what you remember about what you didn't do? it's so -- it's just incredible to watch the president reading out loud i want nothing and trying to remember it because he has to remember it. ambassador gordon sondland's recollection of a phone conversation he said took place on september 9th in which president trump said there was no quid pro quo but that he wanted ukrainian president zelensky to do the right thing as emerged as a centerpiece of the president's defense. just one catch, though, that september 9th call may never have actually occurred, according to a new just secured report entitled here's the proof that trump's no quid pro quo call never happened. and joining us now with the details, founding co-ed dittor and chief of just security and professor of law at new york

university school of law ryan goodman. also legal analyst for nbc news mia wiley. good to have you both. what are we looking at here, ryan? did this not happen? >> if you look at all of the depositions and the testimony and the records of the text messages, it didn't happen. and sondland said he wasn't sfw sure if it napped one or two calls, it was one call. he said he wasn't sure if it was september 9th or september 7th. it was september 7th. the call wasn't a no quid pro quo call, but then the president followed it with very specific demands for what the ukrainian president had to do. >> lots of different rabbit holes here. but at some point do you get called out for lying to congress, changing it, coming back and it's something else that's not true? how does this work? >> well, unfortunately the way this works is congress would have to make a referral to the department of justice in order

to say, we believe there's a perjury here and we would like you to investigate that. so there's a real question about whether or not the department of justice would pursue it. i think what's critically important and ryan makes this point in the just security piece is when you get chased by guard dogs up a tree, you'll stand on even a thin branch. and it's really a very thin branch to simply say, i said no quid pro quo, i don't want a quid pro quo because, you know, it's like the mob boss who says i'm not telling you to kill him. >> right. >> but go do the right thing. >> yes. >> it's like that. it's that mob boss kind of communication. >> that's how i saw that anyway. jonathan la here. >> lemire. >> can you walk us through how it was determined the call was not made when it was claimed to have been made? but more than that, what does it seen some? what sort of broader understanding can we reach if the call was not placed when they said it was? >> "the washington post" also simultaneously had come out with this report that said there's no

white house log of the call that sondland would have had to call the president between 1:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. and they had a colleague of sondland saying he was never comfortable calling the president before 7:30 a.m. but the way he described the call, he said there was no quid pro quo but the president said that zelensky had to do it and that zelensky had to do what he campaigned on or words to that effect. and then you have tim morrison and ambassador taylor saying, no, when we got the readout from the call immediately after sondland was on the call with the president for tim morrison, the readout said that he said no quid pro quo but, and then all the spelled-out demands for biden and the 2016 election and burisma. that's damning evidence of that was the call of where join came up but it followed wall the demands of a quid pro quo. what it does is it flips on its head the most helpful conversation potentially for the president, that's why he came out reading it almost verbatim

from what sondland had said an it's the most incriminating conversation. because it's the very conversation that tim morrison and the gop witness says he immediately told bolton and both of them decided they must alert the lawyers. bolton called ambassador taylor in ukraine on a saturday and taylor went into the embassy to have a conversation about what happened on that call. it's the most incriminating phone conversation in the entire he zblod ry episode. >> timelines are important. if you were going to timeline this alleged call, ryan, what else was happening in the days and hours before the alleged call that might create a need or a purpose for having the alleged call? >> so it's great. the timeline is that in late august "politico" breaks the story that the aid has been suspended. we now have other evidence that says that the ukrainians knew earlier than that.

now that they know the u.s. aid is suspended, then zelensky meets with -- our, yermak as his top aide meets with ambassador sondland in warsaw and they try to work out a compromise. which it is it doesn't have to be the president, it could just be the prosecutor general. that's what necessitates the phone call. because sondland has to go back to president trump and say is that compromise okay with you? if not, zelensky -- and then apparently president trump says to ambassador sondland, no, it has to be zelensky, we want him in this public box, he needs to make the announcement himself. >> so there suddenly is a quid pro quo and, thus, perhaps a need to deny a quid pro quo? >> that's right. >> mia, a lot going on this week. what will you be watching specifically? >> i'm watching specifically to see how the democrats pull forward a very clear narrative for the american public about this being about the president's personal gain over what was

clearly the national security interests of the country. and the reason i say that is because that's what makes it so impeachable, right? because the only thing right now that we hear in the form of credible defense from republicans is it may have been bung willing, it m bung bu bungling, it maybe wrong. but it is in the national interest of the security of the nation. >> i wonder it would take for them to stand up and say that what is right and yong awrong as wrong. >> we haven't reached that tle threshold yet. what do you make of the white house counsel and his team saying they're not going to participate in wednesday's hearing. how do you see this playing out over next couple days?

>> none of us were really surprised. we would have been more surprised if they'd agreed to have counsel participate. and one of the reasons is because what's the counsel going to do there? so on one level it's because the president has a narrative that this is unfair, these proceedings are unfair, and that's the seeds of doubt they're trying to plant in the minds of voters to say this isn't impeachable and you should look at this as partisan rather than impeachable. but the second is, there's so much evidence and there's not a clearly articulated defense that has evidence behind it. so you're in a situation as ryan's pointing out with this timeline, and that doesn't even count all the testimony around quid pro quo for an actual meeting with the president or the president's own public statements and admissions like the july 25th call. they haven't pulled any evidence that this was actually about some legitimate national issue versus the president's own personal gain. so you don't really want to be the person sitting there in that seat creating the optics of

nothing to say. >> no. maya wiley and ryan goodman, thank you so much for being on this morning. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." . we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." ♪ limu emu hour 36 in the stakeout. as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu. wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i thought i was managing my moderate to severe crohn's disease. then i realized something was missing... me. my symptoms were keeping me from being there. so, i talked to my doctor and learned humira is for people who still have symptoms

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welcome back. here's a look at what's happening at know your value.com this week. we're looking at the power of pets. i've been talking a lot about cager, our family dog who passed away. i have a piece up now about how pets have rescue pups especially have given my mom a renewed sense of purpose. talk a lot about that. and we want to hear your stories as well. go to knowyourvalue.com and share your stories about how animals might have made a big difference in your life. there's cajun, he's so great. willie and christina have a wonderful piece up about working together and work it out. and, of course, a preview of comeback careers for women over 50 who are restarting their careers or making a big change in their lives. so a lot going on at know yo knowyourvalue.com. today is monday motivation is perhaps open up your heart to a pet. maybe rescue a puppy, reverend

al, what do you think? nick, jonathan? beckett needs a puppy. i think you're getting one. >> my last pet was a gerbil named max who my dad told me escaped to go see his friends. >> we can rescue a puppy and bring it to you for your birthday. >> your boys are going have a great christmas. it's going to be awesome. i'm so excited for you. >> thank you. >> go to north shore. still to come this morning, it's been nearly one year since the criminal justice reform first step act became law under the trump administration. but the fight for thousands of inmates released since then remains as the department of justice works to land some offenders back in prison and keeps others eligible for release under the law. up next, we'll bring in a former inmate turned criminal justice reform activist allison marie johnson. we'll be right back. ist alliso

johnson. we'll be right back.

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51 past the hour, joining us now former inmate turned criminal justice reform activist, alice marie johnson. her conviction for a first-time nonviolent drug offense was commuted by president trump last year after serving 21 years of a life sentence. also with us, president and executive director of the justice action network holly harris. great to have you back. >> good morning. >> great to meet you. >> thank you. >> thank you for being on. reverend al, you've got the first question. >> alice, you know, this is one thing that i've agreed with president trump on and i think he was right in doing, but i think a lot of americans don't have the human side of what someone like you went through, nonviolent drug offense and

losing all of this time in your life, but you're a human being come out of a family, come out of a situation, and i think people look at it as something removed. share with our viewers what you -- what your life was like and what you lost in those years and why you're committed to helping others because of their real life experience. they're still human beings even if they made a mistake. >> absolutely, reverend sharpton. i came from a very large and loving family. i went to prison. both of my parents were alive. they prayed and prayed for me to come home, but they died before i could make it out alive. i was given a life plus 25 year sentence for a first-time non-violent offense. i guess you could say i lived a pretty regular life. i was a manager with fedex. i worked for them for ten years. i had married very young, had five children. i got involved in something i

shouldn't have. i started gambling after me and my husband split up after 19 years of marriage. we had five children together. i lost my job. my life started spinning out of control. i made some very bad decisions. during this time i lost my youngest son, corey in a scooter accident, and things just started escalating. i was -- i think i started changing my voice to avoid bill collectors calling me, and in a panic i made a very bad decision. i was offered to be a telephone mule. that meant i passed messages, passed numbers without meeting the people, i passed numbers, and when everything fell apart i was involved in a conspiracy. i was offered a very low sentence, but i chose to go to trial, and that cost me my life. i was offered three to five years, but trial exercising my sixth amendment, i was given a

life plus 25-year sentence. >> and you did 21 of those. >> i did almost 22 years, 21 years, seven months and six days. i'll tell you the hours but on the day that i left everything flew out of my head. >> wow. what was that like walking out? >> oh, my goodness, the women there, it sounded like an earthquake. they were so excited because i contributed so much to the prison. i became a playwright. i sat with women who were suicidal. i sat with women who were dying in prison. i helped organize the first ever special olympics for women who had physical and mental challenges. i did a lot of things in the prison. i never gave up hope, though, even though it seemed very dark. >> so holly, let's talk about the road ahead. i mean, what needs to be done so that it doesn't take 21 years to figure out the process here and who it should apply to? >> well, we're coming up on the

anniversary of the passage of the first step act, and we have a really great opportunity to pass another really significant bill, which was the passion project of the late, great chairman elijah cummings, and it's the fair chance act, and it would open up employment, federal government employment, you know, to millions of americans who have made mistakes but are just looking to turn their lives around. there are so many stories like that of alice johnson, you know, thousands and thousands of people buried alive in federal prison, and we've got to provide a pathway back to society, and the fair chance act can do just that. chairman cummings very wisely attached that bill to the national defense authorization act, the ndaa because he knew that was a bill that had to pass by the end of the year, and we just need speaker pelosi and leader mcconnell to ensure that the fair chance about stays attaches to the ndaa. >> i think that's what is critical, and i think this is something that could be bipartisan. >> it is bipartisan.

doug collins and elijah cummings. >> this is the one thing i agreed with trump and kim kardashian on. holly i know that you know there are many other stories, and people feel that those of us who are progressive think nobody should go to jail. some people should do time, let's be clear, but there are countless people like her that are doing an inordinate amount of time that we've got to reform the system. it just isn't fair. >> we've got to do something. i've never heard a woman say anything except when i get out, i'm going to get a job so i can take care of my family. that's all we're asking, give these women and men some hope. we've got the first step act. we've shown that we can come together and put our political differences aside, and think about people because that's who our elected officials were hired -- were elected to do. they were elected to put politics aside and put people first. and so the fair chance act would do just that.

it would give them -- we've got the first step which was just that, a first step. and it brings in all of the rehabilitation aspect of it. but if you om ocome out and you can't get a job. first you're locked in, and then when you come out, they're locked out. they're locked out of an opportunity for a fair chance at employment. >> to contribute to society. >> yes. >> and one in three american adults now has a criminal record. a third of our country has a more difficult time finding a job. this is critical. we've got to pass the fair chance act now. >> alice marie johnson, thank you, holly harris, thank you as well so much for being on this morning. and coming up, we're heading into a critical week in the impeachment probe, and while new hearings take place in washington, president trump will be in london to mark nato's 70th anniversary. we're breaking down the very big week ahead. plus, republican senator john kennedy tramples down on his claim that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election, the very same

russian talking point that senators were warned about by the intel community. "morning joe" will be right back. where we all want more energy. but with less carbon footprint. can we have both? at bp, we're working every day to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. make family-sized meals fast, and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

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>> what are you most thankful for, mr. president? >> for having a great family and for having made a tremendous difference in this country. i've made a tremendous difference in the country. >> i then got down, i sat down. i had a gorgeous piece of turkey, and i was all set to go, and i had some of the mashed potatoes. i had a bite of mashed potatoes, and i never got to the turkey because the general said come on over, sir, lets take some pictures. i never got to my turkey. it's the first time at thanksgiving that i've never had anything called turkey, but that's okay. >> some of president trump's thanksgiving messages over the past three years? that's what we got. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." >> wait, wait, wait. he's complaining. >> yeah. >> to troops. >> to troops who are serving abroad. >> that are serving in afghanistan over the holidays. >> away from their families. >> that he did not get enough to eat. i mean, you look at -- he's

complaining about not getting enough to eat while they're serving america. that's -- i think that sums it up. >> that's it right there. it's monday, december 2nd, and with us we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire who turned 40 over thanksgiving. a little bp. >> political writer for the "new york times" and msnbc political analyst nick confessore. host of msnbc's politics nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton, and u.s. national editor at the financial times, ed luce joins us as well. with the holiday break behind us, we're kicking off a very busy news week. the impeachment push against president trump will soon shift from investigation to prosecution. the house judiciary committee gavels in on wednesday but do not expect the white house to participate. the president, meanwhile, heads overseas today for the upcomiin nato summit in london.

if past is prologue, he'll be packing his domestic political issues right along with him complaining that they're happening. and speaking of politics here at home, this morning there was one fewer democrat in the race for president. montana governor steve bullock announced that he is suspending his campaign. quite a week ahead, joe. >> quite a week ahead. sad news about steve bullock for those of us who like steve very much and have great respect for him. i'm sure that's not the last we're going to hear from him. look forward to having him on "morning joe" to talk about that. mika, as we set up this week, it's going to be a very important week, not only the history of the trump administration but of this country, think about how telling it is that after two weeks of damning testimony day after day and after republicans are given a week to prepare, an additional week after those two weeks to prepare for the president's defense, they were left

yesterday russian propaganda points about ukraine interfering in the 2016 election. those russian propaganda talking points have already been knocked down and discredited by the united states' 17 intel agencies and the united states senate got a briefing from the intel community to tell them specifically that what john kennedy, what senator john kennedy of louisiana said yesterday on "meet the press" was not only a lie but that it was active russian propaganda and had warned the senators that the russians had been pushing this propaganda line for years. so i just think it's important after, again, if you haven't been paying much attention over the past week because of the holidays, it's important to

understand you saw two -- two really moving important weeks of testimony, and now the republicans are coming back. they still have no defense, and they're actually reduced now to doing nothing but repeating russian propaganda points, and as somebody said yesterday, if they do that knowing the 17 intel agencies told them it was a lie and being warned in the united states senate, then actually they're not ignorant. they've actually turned themselves into being russian assets. that's where we are as a nation as this week begins. >> and as joe said, this will be a consequential week in the impeachment probe of president trump. for that reason alone, but also today the house intelligence chi wi committee will review a draft of the impeachment report which

will make the case for the removal of the president. tomorrow the committee will vote to send the report to the house judiciary committee. then on wednesday the house judiciary committee will hold its first impeachment hearing. the judiciary committee had invited president trump or a white house lawyer to attend the hearing, but the white house informed democrats yesterday it will not participate n. a five-page letter to house judiciary chairman jerry nadler white house counsel pat cipollone wrote in part this, under the current circumstances we will not intend to participate in your wednesday hearing, adding we cannot fairly be expected to participate in a hearing while the witnesses are yet to be named, and while it remains unclear whether the judiciary committee will afford the president a fair process through additional hearings. and while this new week of impeachment proceedings kicks off, the president will leave for the annual nato summit today. the president tweeted on saturday, i will be representing

our country in london at nato while the democrats are holding the most ridiculous impeachment hearings in history. read the transcripts. nothing was done or said wrong. the radical left is undercutting our country. hearings scheduled on same dates as nato. well while the house intelligence committee readies its impeachment report, the republican's dechbfense of the president continued to get more creative. here is the top republican on the judiciary committee, congressman doug collins of georgia and republican judiciary committee member tom mcclintock of california yesterday defending president trump in his dealings with ukraine. >> if you believed that the president had used the power of his office to try to get ukraine to interfere with our elections, if you believed that, would that be an impeachable offense? >> i do not believe it so i'm not going to answer a hypothetical which is designed to simply say that the president

did something improper. chris, he did nothing improper. there was nothing about problematic giving aid to corruption, whi another country. a president's candidate's son who was getting a massive amount of money from a company that had been under investigation which even other witnesses that have been face-to-favorable to the d have said needed to be looked at. this is a problem of overall proportion. there's nothing here the president did wrong, and this is the thing we're going to move forward on. >> when you defend the president and think about these hearings, is there anything in your mind that the president did involving ukraine that is wrong or that concerns you in any way? >> well, he didn't use the delicate language of diplomacy in that conversation. that's true. he also doesn't use the smarmy talk of politicians. what you hear from donald j. trump is the blunt talk of a manhattan businessman. he says what hep mea means. he means what he says.

that's the only thing that's remarkable about that conversation, but he was entirely within his constitutional authority and was following the statute that congress adopted in granting aid to the ukraine. >> actually, that's just not the case at all. >> he says what he means and he means what he says. >> the whole thing, he's lying. the d.o.d. had already said that it was -- that they were good wi with, the d.o.d. state department both said they passed guidelines regarding corruption. what he just said was a lie, and saying that that is normal is such an unbelievably dangerous signal not only to politicians that are running for office this year but those who may run in the future. but you listen to both of those comments, jonathan lemire, and i feel like ralphie in a christmas story, i need an ovaltine

decoder rink to figure out what they said. here's the deal, congress has given you guys almost $400 million in military aid, defense of military aid. you've been invieded by putin, but i'm not going to give it to you until you do a press conference that actually trashes my domestic rival, my domestic opponent. i mean, it's clear. it's straightforward. we have testimony and actually, over the past week more news has come forward that actually shows it's even worse than what sondland says, there wasn't a second call. we'll get to that later, there's a lot to get to here. jonathan lemire, it seems after three weeks republicans have nothing to defend the president with other than word salad and russian talking points. help me, tell me if i'm wrong. >> joe, you're right. that is what you've seen.

>> oh, happy birthday, jonathan. >> that is what we have seen is that the republicans have been unable to defend the president on the facts, so therefore they've had to come up with convoluted explanations. you just heard a couple of them. you had the conspiracy theory from senator kennedy pushing that the u was ukraine and not russia who interfered with the 2016 election, even though every u.s. intelligence agency, everyone says that it was russia, and you have a president himself who is now refusing to cooperate in the probe. let's not skip over this. this is what we've seen here is the white house counsel in that letter said the white house would not participate, the president himself or a lawyer won't be there on wednesday. they did leave the door open for perhaps future cooperation down the road in the proceedings, but what they're going to do is what they have done throughout the second part of the mueller probe and certainly from day one since democrats took control house of representatives with their own investigations and throughout this ukraine matter. they're simply going to stone wall. they're not going to play ball. they're going to not cooperate. they're going to try to have the split screen image of the president overseas trying to

conduct the people's business. his campaign likes the idea of him being on the road a lot in the weeks ahead showing that he is governing while the democrats in their views are back home playing politics and pursuing this impeachment matter. they're going to really try to up the stage craft these next couple of days. still ahead on "morning joe," senator john kennedy has gone from insulting nancy pelosi as dumb to para didding the talking points of vladimir putin. his ne next on "morning joe." next on "morning joe." is about to become your problem. ahh no, come on. i saw you eating poop earlier. hey! my focus is on the road, and that's saving me cash with drivewise. who's the dummy now? whoof! whoof! so get allstate where good drivers save 40%

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welcome back to "morning joe," for a second sunday in a row, republican senator john kennedy argued that ukraine interfered in the 2016 u.s. election. in a contentious interview on

"meet the press" moderator chuck todd asked kennedy about a "washington post" op-ed from michaelgerson which criticized kennedy's comments that ukraine was responsible for the dnc hack. >> simply uttering this conflation on ukraine and russia, the inference is you're doing the president's dirty work here. do you accept that criticism? >> well, listen, i like michael gerson. i haven't met him, but i know he's a smart guy and i read his columns now and again. i disagree with him. i think that both russia and ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. i think it's been well-documented in the "final times," in "politico," in "the economist" and the with the washington examiner." even on cbs. >> according to the "new york times" a couple of weeks ago u.s. senators were briefed after fiona hill's testimony that

actually, this the entire effort to frame ukraine for the russian meddling of 2016 of which you just made this case that they've done it, that actually this is an effort of russia propaganda, that this is a russian intelligence pron begp begaagann in order to get people like you to say these things about ukraine. they're trying to frame ukraine. you apparently were briefed about this in the united states senate by intelligence officials. are you at all concerned you're doing russian intelligence work here? >> i was not briefed. russia was very aggressive, and they're much more sophisticated, but the fact that russia was so aggressive does not exclude the fact that president poroshenko actively worked for secretary clinton. now, if i'm wrong and if -- >> actively worked, secretary, my goodness, senator kennedy you now have the president of ukraine saying he actively worked for the democratic

nominee for president. now, come on. i've got to put up -- you realize the only other person selling this argument outside of the united states is this man, vladimir putin. this is what he said on november 20th. thank god noek is accusing of us anymore of interfering in u.s. elections. now they're accusing ukraine. let them sort this out among themselves. you have done exactly what the russian operation is trying to get american politicians to do. are you at all concerned that you've been duped? >> no. because just read the articles. >> ed luce, it's telling, again, this is a guy -- i'm sorry. this is a guy who went to oxford, who's well-educated, who knows better. he knows the united states senate was warned several months ago not to push this russian propaganda. again, donald trump's intel agency, not any sort of deep

state that rose out of the ground, and yet he's -- he's blaming the financial times john kennedy. he's saying the "financial times" if you just read the "financial times" you'll understand why the 17 u.s. intel agencies and the intel briefers that went to the senate are wrong, that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. maybe since you write for the "financial times" you can clarify for us. >> well, first of all, you know, going to oxford is no defense i should remind you both, jonathan went to oxford. but i've been racking my brains of my colleagues as to which "financial times" reporting senator kennedy is referring to in support of this, you know, really fanciful contention that ukraine meddled in the 2016 elections, and i can't find it. i don't know whether he did the same with the "washington

examiner" and the economist and so forth, but it seems like he just plopped those newspaper names out of thin air. >> so you and the -- you and editors of the "financial times" can find no article that suggests that russia and ukraine meddled in the 2016 election? >> we can find plenty that show russia intervened in the 2016 election but not that ukraine did. you know, we've done a lot of reporting as others have on the oligarchic scene in ukraine, which is very murky, and it's a corrupt country, but the idea that ukraine intervened in the u.s. 2016 election specifically is not something that senator kennedy can point to the "financial times" as supporting. i'm not too aware of any credible reporting on that subject. i think fiona hill was absolutely right when she said this is a conspiracy theory, an

alternative reality that was cooked up in the kremlin, and there's, you know, from farm to fork is now coming out of senator kennedy's mouth. >> coming up, president trump is set to head to the uk just a short time from now. we'll get a preview of this week's nato summit next on "morning joe." ♪ lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose.

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." you're looking at the white house where the president of the united states is actually into his fourth hour or fifth hour of being awake this morning. he's going to be going to great britain at 9:00 a.m., and ed luce, let's talk about the nato summit and the president going to great britain and what you expect not only from the summit but also its possible impact on the upcoming election there. >> yeah, as you know, the british election is the following week, so trump's going to be there just eight days before this really important general election, and he's got a long history of intervening in british politics. it has to be said the disapproval rating of trump in britain is extremely high, so although trump wants boris

johnson's conservatives to win the election, boris johnson has delicately asked him not to say anything while he's on british soil because that immediately gets taken down and used against the conservatives, trump's support for the conservatives by jeremy corbyn, the labor leader. in terms of nato, you know, britain is hosting this 70th anniversary of this extraordinary, you know, unique military alliance in kbloegloba history, and it is beginning to fall apart. you have macron, the french president describing nato as suffering from brain death, and he attributed the brain death of nato to the fact that america has turned its back on europe, and this has enraged trump. there used to be this bromance between macron and trump. that's clearly dead, and then of course erdogan, turkey's leader

who has breached all nato rules with, you know, the apparent nudge and wink from the white house to buy these russian missiles, the s-400 missiles, and put them in place, and erdogan himself is now calling macron brain dead. so you've got a very, very disyun -- ununified nato on its 70th anniversary, and it's being staged on the eve of a british general election. the trump kurds which trump could influence, which he's very, very likely to do, the one thing he can't resist is temptation. coming up on "morning joe," dexter filkins has covered conflict in the middle east for years, but his new reporting takes him to a very different part of the world. that's next on "morning joe." ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." the taliban has signaled interest in reigniting peace talks with the united states. a spokesperson for the insurgent group told reuters on friday that the group was, quote, ready to restart the talks. it comes just one day after president trump's surprise visit to u.s. troops in afghanistan where he discussed the status of the taliban talks. >> the taliban wants to make a deal and we're meeting with them, and we're saying it has to be a cease fire. they didn't want to do a cease fire, but now they do want to do a cease fire, i believe, it will probably work out that way. and we'll see what happens. >> okay but the "new york times" reports that those comments further confused the taliban and left them scrambling to figure out whether trump had suddenly moved to the goal post for negotiations with the addition of a cease fire demand.

joining us now, staff writer for "the new yorker" dexter filkins great to have you back on the show. and joe, i wonder if that could have been confusing what the president had said. >> well, of course. dexter, you've obviously been going to afghanistan for well over two decades. what do you make of not only the president's confusing comments but also any prospect for peace in afghanistan? >> well, look, my concern is that they do a deal, and it's a bad deal, and we walk away too quickly, and if we walk away too quickly, the whole thing's going to fall apart. and you know, i'm not sure the extent to which the president cares about afghanistan, but he does -- you know, i think he's worried about television images of afghanistan falling apart, so i think that will give him some pause, but my concern is not so

much a deal per se but a bad deal because we're in a hurry. >> and we got out of iraq in a h hurry, obviously a lot of americans, myself included were exhausted by what had happened over the seven or eight years. the president followed the wishes, president obama followed the wishes of i think a majority of americans and a speedy retreat from iraq led obviously to the rise of isis and five more years of fighting. is there a possibility donald trump could be repeating the same mistake here? >> look, that's exactly the danger, and everybody -- everybody saw that movie. we left in a hurry in 2011 before, you know, before the thing that we had built could stand on its own, and so it fell apart very rapidly, and as you said, we got isis and all the rest, and i think that's the concern here. the taliban are as strong today as they've been at any point since the war started, and so

the concern here -- and i think the objective needs to be not just to leave. everybody wants to leave, but to leave in the right way, and that's not easy. that's why we're still here because we haven't figured out a way to leave. >> so dexter, and that's the next question. we've been there now for almost 20 years. a lot of americans hearing you and me talk about leaving the right way would say how much longer do american troops need to be there? and i'm just wondering if, again, given everything that you know about afghanistan, if what we need to be looking at is more of a situation like we have in south korea or germany and less like a situation where we begin a war after september 11th and lower the american flag, go home and live peacefully and not worry about afghanistan anymore? >> yeah, you know, i'm with you. i think the model is south korea. you know, there's been tens of

thousands of troops there since the 1950s, and nobody complains about them because they're not dying, and i think that's sort of the goal, which is like to get the americans off the stage and have them training the army, and that's pretty much what they're doing now. >> jonathan lemire. >> dexter, wanted to shift topics to your latest piece, which is about india, and we hear a lot about india being the world's largest democracy now, and i think that a lot of americans aren't quite aware of some of the policies that the prime minister modi has enacted there. walk us through some of them, in particular about some of the more nationalist policies that he's enactd and what parallels you might see with president trump and the rise of nationalism elsewhere on the globe. >> you know, i had no idea. for me india was -- it was still the india of gandhi and the world's largest democracy. it's changed a lot. it's not -- it's not your parents' india. modi, the prime minister, has discovered that if you -- if you

can organize the majority around in this case the hatred of muslims, which he's really done, then he's pretty much free to do anything else he wants. and you know, every -- i think every demagogue needs an enemy, and he's chosen the muslims. i think what's so potentially disturbing here, they're lynching muslims in the countryside. i went -- there's parts of that in my story, but yeah, it's -- i don't know where this thing ends, but i think we're just at the beginning of it. >> and obviously, i think a lot of people worry about the potential conflict with pakistan. how -- where would you rate tensions there? i mean they've obviously been high for a while. are we particularly approaching a flash point between these two countries because of modi's leadership? >> that's a really good question. the dispute between india and pakistan is centered around kashmir, the himalayan territory, it's never been settled, and i think what's happened in the last couple of months which is the indians have

poured troops in there and basically shut the whole place down. we're just very close to kind of all that taking off again, and that's nuclear weapons on both sides. >> so in your story, dexter, you talk about it's a profile really that investigative reporter -- kind of her having evidence of some crimes. tell us about her experience being a reporter in a democracy that is averging on authoritarianism. >> thanks for asking that. the piece is built around this remarkable woman named ran rana inug, who is a 35-year-old muslim woman, and she has been dogging modi for his whole career. it all starting -- it starts 20 years ago where modi was the governor, the chief minister, and there were terrible riots and really terrible riots in which hundreds of thousands of people were made homeless, thousands died, and the evidence is, based on much of it based on what rama has uncovered, is that modi basically helped

orchestrate those riots and helped perpetuate them, and he's been dogged by that his entire career, but he's been trying to like get it out of the way, and she keeps bringing it back. >> joe. >> so dexter, obviously this creates so many problems for the united states as it searches. if it is, in fact, sesharching r an exit out of afghanistan. many people have believed through the years that we should have looeeaned more on india as counter balance to pakistan. now with india obviously having antidemocratic urges with unrest there, with tensions rising between india and pakistan, perhaps even more if that's possible, what is the best approach forward? when you talk to foreign policy leaders on this rising conflict, what's america's best path forward?

balancing these concerns. >> it's really hard. i think the short answer is, you know, pakistan has always been kind of at the heart of this because they helped create the taliban and they've sustained them for 20 years, and we're not really going to get a deal until we not only get the taliban on board but also pakistan, and that means india, and we can call on india's help, and that's not easy. as you say, i think increasingly india, they're just going by a different play book, so it doesn't make it easier. it makes it harder. >> the new piece is in the latest issue of "the new yorker," dexter filkins thank you for being on. >> thank you. it's time for business before the bell with cnbc's brian bell. >> i want to comment on, that that's a great story india's going to be the biggest country in the world by population. i don't know if you had wild turkey like i did, but

everybody's expecting it to be a good holiday shopping time, in part because there's six fewer days between thanksgiving and christmas this year so that panic that we always feel, that just mad anxiety inducing shopping panic i get is going to happen, but it should be a good year overall. by the way, $10 trillion now outstanding in u.s. corporate debt. that's about 47% of the entire american economy, just cheap rates, throw out the debt. buy your stock back, watch the market go up, and there you go. >> okay. >> now -- >> i just throw stuff out there and wait and see what happens. >> i like it. >> so let me ask, obviously we always have to be concerned with debt, but if you're a ceo or let's say you're the president of a country and borrowing is cheaper than ever before, does it not make sense perhaps to borrow more if you're a corporate? >> well, it does if you're heavily indebted.

just like any of your viewers that have maybe a credit card debt or a mortgage at 1%, you can get it lower, as long as you don't ratchet up the debt amount, reducing your rate is always a good thing to do. the problem is politically as we talk about wealth inequality, when we start to have these companies and their corporate tax rates go down, that makes them targets. they start buying back their own stock because they have nothing else to do with the money. that makes them targets as well. sends the market up. there's other angles aside from how much money do i owe every month. as you guys work towards 2020, you guys do an awesome job, you're not going to sleep for the next year, congratulations. you know the battle we're facing in these type of optics are headline fodder i'm just guessing. >> cnbc's brian sullivan thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> up next, despite the impeachment probe, president trump's approval rating among members of his party remains strong, so strong that one new poll shows republicans think

he's a better leader than abraham lincoln. >> i'm sorry. that's too much. that's just too much. >> mm-hmm. >> i thought "dumb and dumber" was a funny movie. jim carrey's got nothing on those people that said donald trump was a better president than the man who saved the union. but i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt. >> that's okay. in fact, there's only one former republican president who out polls trump in that survey. we'll tell you who that is ahead. >> gerald ford. ♪ ♪ do you know the way to san jose ♪ this piece is talking to me. yeah? so what do you see? i see an unbelievable opportunity. i see best-in-class platforms and education. i see award-winning service, and a trade desk full of experts, available to answer your toughest questions. and i see it with zero commissions on online trades. i like what you're seeing.

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♪ what the world needs now is love sweet love ♪ it's 48 past the hour, the justice department's inspector general has reportedly found no evidence that the fbi spied on president trump's 2016 campaign. that's according to people familiar with the draft of the report who spoke to the "new york times." that report spearheaded by inspector general michael horowitz examined key aspects of the russia investigation and whether trump's associates conspired with russia's election interference operation. sources claim that the report debunks various talking points by the president and his defenders that the fbi acted

improperly while handling the probe. the document also undercuts an unsubstantiated accusation made by trump that former president obama ordered his phones to be tapped. according to people familiar with the draft of the report, horowitz sharply criticizes fbi leaders after finding errors and omissions involving the surveillance of former trump campaign official carter page, but ultimately found that the agents' actions were not politically motivated. the report is expected to debunk the theory that the fbi relied on information to open the investigation from the infamous steele dossier. a final version of the report is expected to be released on december 9th. joe. >> so jonathan lemire, obviously all of the president's conspiracy theories are debunked. also, a conspiracy theory that

sadly members of the republican senate have been parroting even though they know it's a lie, why don't we start with lindsey graham, is the debunked theory that the steele dossier was responsible for the beginning of the mueller investigation. that was a lie. the time frame never worked out. obviously debunks all of that, not that it will matter to si sycophants of donald trump, but at the same time there are also findings that some fbi agents acted poorly and, of course, some of those already were kicked off the mueller team by robert mueller himself? >> right, the report, what we know so far, and the full report is a week or so away from being released, suggests that some fbi agents acted poorly but did not suggest any bias with the probe. the finding undercuts what does

urgent that there was deep states to bring down candidate trump and then president trump and this is something that people around the president have had their hopes pinned on. they are hoping it would bolster their arguments. we have seen bad faith arguments. in the three odd years since it came into our lives, and there is no reason to expect that that will change. >> this is obviously a lump of coal in the president's stocking for chris mass. he was able to get the expecter general to investigate something that he made up a rally about obama spying on him. it was always a fictitious claim, and the cheels of justice

were forced to turn to debunk it over a course of months and that is astonishing. and there is still a probe that is also ongoing. and i think we will see more foder for the president when that is released in the mons ahead, and the tweet about president obama wiretapping him is the most surprising and hard to believe tweet that he has. >> a new poll shows that donald trump thinks he is a better president than the president that ended the civil war, abraham lincoln. 47% of republicans think abraham lincoln is a better president. republicans in this poll favor trump over every republican president in the poll except ronald reagan. every time we mention reagan

we're contractually obligated to bring in craig shirley. but do you want to get craig's readout on these polls. >> i would love to hear your opinion on someone that humiliates himself, that he is a greater president than abraham lincoln than everyone but ronald reagan. what does that say about the biggest spinning republican ever. is small government conservative dead once and for all. >> i wish you had not asked me that, but -- let me say that as a political observer i'm intrigued. as a historian i'm appalled. i would question the methodology

of that poll and go back and look at the sample size. how they asked the question. i'm heartenned that reagan came out on top, i question the voracity of the poll, but i'm not sure that it is really factual. >> let us hope that the methodology was way, way off. we shall see. let's talk about marleyball washington and an inkruging line out of it that you have said that she is either described as mother theresa or mommy dearest. >> let me say first, i think that a lot of people like this book, i think a lot of women will like this book. this was a tough woman in a century that was very tough on women.

women didn't have the vote and they could not even legally own property. they wanted to take property from their husband and pass it on to their oldest son. they have gone back and forth on her, not that there has been a definitive book about her, but where she showed up is that for a time she was portrayed as kind of like you know mother teresa, or mary, the mother of christ or something like that. after the war it was a sharp turn and she was like joan crawford instead of june cleaver. i wanted to do a factual account of her life. so who creates this man? this was, you know, she had six

children over nine years. her husband died when george was only 11, he was the oldest son, she was a survivor and she was tough, and cantankerous. was she controversial? yes, but she had to be. >> i think often has parents, you realize that you to be tough. and the things that were so shocking to you, my dad was stingy and now i get it because you learn the value of what you do, but you describe her as stingy, shrewish, and strong. >> i did, but that was adapting the language of other people high pressure he was meticulous about watching his pennies, and he got that from her because she lived on an allowance.

she got some salary from the farm, but she had to be stingy to make ends meet and she massed that along to him who was equally careful with the dollar. she also passed along a love of reading, agriculture, and land. she came out of an era -- she grew up under british rule and british royalty. so when her son leads the revolution, she is stimed. she is set in believing in the divine right of king george the 2nd and king george the 3rd. she is never overtly supportive of him or against him, but it is tough for her to break out of what she has grown to know in the first 50 years of her life.

>> you write that after the rev hugs fair war, when he becomes the first president of the united states, that his mother "she did not go to his inauguration in new york or that she acknowledged his accomplishments or was proud of him. what does a guy got to do, and my second question is does that indicate the heart of their rib? that he was never quite enough to make her proud? >> i think it is more a representation of the era more than their relationship. it was expected that you will succe succeed, and even when you do, you're elected unanimously, you're elected unanimously president of the united states. and elected unanimously the second term of president, is

that he kind of expected george to do these things. there is no doubt that she invested her time, either, and energy into him to the exclusion of the other children. the others were kind of ignored except for betty, but she invested most of her energy -- but he was expected to succeed and when he did she took it in stride. >> the new story is mary ball washington. the untold story of washington's mother. >> joe, you have 30 seconding for final thoughts. >> we are starting an important week in the proceedings. and the republicans have been reduced to parodying rumt talking points, and bragging

about a poll that says a majority of americans want donald j. trurp impeemp is imped removed from office. >> from the party of link kop to the party of trump. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> there is a lot happening own the impeachment front, this week the focusships from fact witnesses to the actual articles of impeachment. the venue is shifting. democratic committee chairman jerry nadler invited the president aes his team to take part in this week's hearings. here is part of what the president's council wrote to the committee. this baseless and highly

partis i