sirius xm. thank you for watching. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace begins right now. ♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. house speaker nancy pelosi announcing today that she has directed the chairman of the house judiciary committee and the other committees investigating the president to begin drafting articles of impeachment for donald trump. pelosi's announcement making it official that barring something extraordinary, donald trump will most likely be impeached in the coming weeks. here's a part of her announcement this morning. >> if we allow a president to be above the law, we do so surely at the peril of our republic. an america no one is above the law. the facts are uncontested. the president abused his power for his own personal political benefit.

his wrongdoing strikes at the very heart of our constitution, sadly. but with confidence and humility with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for america, today i am asking our chairmen to proceed with articles of impeachment. >> that statement puts the official impeachment of donald j. trump who would become only the third president in our country's history to face impeachment trials in the senate on the horizon. but it's pelosi's response to a question about whether or not she hates donald trump getting perhaps the most attention today. >> do you hate the president, madam speaker? >> i don't hate anybody. i was raised in a catholic house. we don't hate anybody. not anybody in the world. so don't you accuse me. >> i did not accuse you. i asked a question. >> you did. >> representative collins yesterday suggested that the democrats are doing this simply because they don't like the guy.

>> i have nothing to say there. i think the president is a coward when it comes to helping our kids who are afraid of gun violence. i think he is cruel when he doesn't deal with helping our dreamers of which we are very proud. i think he is in denial about the climate crisis. however, that's about the election. this is about the elect -- take it up in the election. this is about the constitution of the united states and the facts that lead to the president's violation of his oath of office. and as a catholic, i resent your using the word "hate" in a sentence that addresses me. i don't hate anyone. i was raised in a way that is a heart full of love and always prayed for the president. i still pray for the president. i prayed for the president all the time. so don't mess with me when it comes to words like that. >> don't mess with me she says.

pelosi's comments laden though with the gravity of this moment. peter baker describes this way, quote, mocked by peers behind his back at a nato meeting in london. he canceled a news conference and bolted early only to fly home to a capitol in the throes on whether he is fit for office. that by christmas he will become the third president impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. the president weighed in with some advice for the house on the timing of his impeachment writing this. quote, if you're going to impeach me do it now, fast, so we can have a fair trial in the senate, and so that our country can get back to business. we will have schiff, the bidens, pelosi and many more testify. and we'll reveal for the first time how corrupt our system really is. okay. and the trump's white house advisers have been signaling for weeks that they have got this,

no worries here. signs that the president's allies understand that the television obsessed and thin-skinned president may become even more volatile once he makes impeachment history. from today's "washington post," the white house signaled wednesday that it will aggressively defend president trump in the coming weeks as legal experts called by house. impending clash is where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. from capitol hill senior writer for politico jake sherman. with us at the table chairman for the center for african-american studies at princeton, eddie glaude, political reporter for the "new york times." nick confessori's back. "new york times" editorial board member mara gay. i was going to say former republican steve schmidt also. welcome back, friend. what say you about where we find ourselves? >> it was a really remarkable

moment by nancy pelosi. and you look at the consternation of our national leadership. i think she's proven over this period of the trump era she's literally only serious national leader the country has with regard to. and i disagree with her on many, many issues. but her understanding that she's duty-bound here, constitutionally obligated to prosecute this matter because the president is so far above the line on this issue of high crimes and misdemeanors. and if withholding aid from an ally who is in a war with the russians to get dirt on your political opponent, to launch a criminal investigation against the u.s. citizen, if that doesn't meet the threshold, the question i would have is what conceivably could? and so we are about to go through a tumultuous period in this country. it's not been brought about by the democrats. it's been brought about by the

conspiracy, by the illegal conduct of this president. and so the bill is coming due for the election of donald trump. winston churchill once observed in a accurademocracy we get the government we deserve. and so donald trump was lawfully elected president. we've had years of chaos now. now we are going to see a testing of our system. and we are going to see the wholesale corruption of the party that we served for a long time on full display as they gas-light the american people, as they lie to the american people, as they engage in the cover-up of this conduct. >> you know, jake sherman, i think to steve's point about nancy pelosi, there are some iconic moments that trump has essentially handed to her when he tweeted out the photo of her in the roosevelt room thinking he was making her, i don't know if his attack was rooted in a

gender observation that he got so badly wrong there. but this conservative journalistic today, giving her another opportunity to say don't you use the word "hate" with me. i'm not on the side trafficking in hate. i am not motivated by hate. i'm going back to the podium and i'm taking that on. a very, very certain confident and steely nancy pelosi today. >> yeah. i mean, i've probably been to hundreds of her press conferences over the years. i don't think i've ever seen her go back to the podium or at least not in the last ten years. she's really good at ignoring those shouted out questions. and she, like most congressional leaders, she takes a lot of questions. she treats the press quite well. so do republican leaders on capitol hill. but she never goes back for the podium because she's usually exhausted all of the questions. i've spent probably an unnatural amount of time thinking about the trump/pelosi relationship.

at the end of my book, which came out earlier this year before she was in charge of congress, donald trump told me in an interview, you know, i have respect for her, i like her, she is a strong leader. he said the same thing of chuck schumer. but he really seemed fixated on nancy pelosi who he's known for a long time. and who, despite what you think of her policy, she is one of the most effective congressional leaders we have seen beyond a doubt at least the last decade. trump doesn't have that really. mitch mcconnell is effective and helps trump. but nancy pelosi keeps her people in line much better than any republican leader that i'd ever seen. and trump finds that in my estimation based on what i've seen is almost jealous of that. and, you know, dating back to -- trump has made a series of miscalculations on nancy pelosi. he shut down the government for the border wall, thought pelosi would cave, thought the position

was unsustainable, it was not. all the way until now. so it's just fascinating watching the relationship and watching the power dynamic between the two. mark meadows, one of the president's closest allies, once told me whoever won the shutdown would have the upper hand in washington for the next congress. nancy pelosi won the shutdown, and here we are in the middle of an impeachment proceeding. >> you know, it's such an interesting point. and i also think -- that's why i thought about that photo as soon as -- this happened when i was in the car and i pulled it up and i watched it immediately. and i had the same observation and jake had that, you know, what she wasn't going to let ride was the idea that she was motivated by hate. i just cannot -- i mean, maybe it's just watching the republican party turn into something that some will attest was there for a long time. but for sort of hatred and lies to become the predominant feature, not a bug to conserve efforts to defend donald trump.

she wasn't going to let it stand for a second. it's so fascinating to see the woman in the relationship, the democrat in the relationship saying this has nothing to do with my feelings, and not only is that not the case. don't you even accuse me of that having anything to do with it. she shuts down really what is in donald trump the whineyest, the most emotionally volatile and the most sort of fuelled by animus politician in our country's history. >> i think it's important for us to see that dimension of it, and it was powerful. i was raised in a catholic household. >> i'm a person of faith. >> i pray for him. so that's the personal dimension of it. but i think the passion underneath the response not only had to do with her own defense of her own heart. it had something to do with how this process has been framed, that the seriousness of what we are dealing with as a country is not about whether or not we like donald trump or not. it's not about whether or not we hate him or love him or not. it's about it goes to the core of who we are as a democratic

republic. and so to address that question is to address in some ways the insidious way in which the whole debate has been framed by the other side. so she had to go back to the podium because we have been fighting that particular framing for a while. those people over there, they don't like us. those people in the cities, they hate us. those people who are in the ivy leagues, they think we're dumb, they hate us. and so she had to go to that and go to itheart and say that's not what's motivating this. what's motivating this goes to the heart of this constitutional republic. >> i think the reporter did his job. he asked a totally reasonable question. >> now, look, i think -- but let me just say i didn't criticize the reporter either. >> let's mot pretend there is a lot of hatred and rage towards donald trump. but there is a reason for it. . >> as jake's saying she's never gone back to the podium.

i mean -- >> i think eddie's absolutely right that she does not want that question or trump to frame what is happening here. and she held off the hounds for a long time in her own party. and she finally moved towards impeachment i think in her mind when the evidence of impeachable crimes was so strong that to let them stand would be a danger. and i further think that, look, it's not really clear there's any real upside politically for democrats or that there will be a clear spinout of what's going to happen next. no one really knows. i think the reason they are doing this is if it's allowed to happen this way without a peep, it will be happening and that's what they are defending against. >> and i want to be clear. i don't know who the reporter was. you can ask whatever question you want. i work for politicians, you trained them all not to attack the questioner. but it is her prerogative to respond to a question as vigorously as she did.

and i, just after watching every minute of the impeachment hearings, after watching every witness come up there and really stare down the barrel of gop hatred for the fact pattern that emerged at colonel vindman, at fiona hill. they had nothing to gain sitting there. and the thing that she wouldn't let stand was that her feelings had anything to do with it. i think that is part of what's so fundamentally and structurally broken about -- this has nothing to do with feelings. this is an if x and y. if he held out military aid for an investigation into biden, even if it stinks politically, you've got to impeach the president. >> i agree with that. i also think for me the real power in that moment was listening to the speaker. i was actually -- it was kind of comforting. it almost felt like a pre2016 moment because it really didn't feel partisan. it wasn't a partisan moment. >> it was a moment in which the speaker was able to cut through

the noise and the us versus them and the partisanship and really talk about the real story and what's actually at stake. and that was really refreshing. and i think it was really frankly impressive too because the question did come from someone who's known to be partisan. and anyone can ask anything that they want in a press conference. that's totally fine. but for her to turn that around, turn that narrative around and actually use it to say, no, the president is trying and his allies are trying to distract us from what this is actually about, which is the constitution and democracy is at stake but i'm not going to let it happen. >> and it was an important moment because grievance and the shared sense of victimhood is the high octane fuel of trumpism. it's what makes the trump car go. one of the things that's true in this country is that authoritarian movements, historically, have never caught on. if you want to look historically, say the high water mark in our country's history

for authoritarianism might be the night where madison square garden was packed in 1938 to the rafters for the meeting of the german/american boot. pew poll says 43% of republicans would like to see the checks and balances inherent in our system. the courts and the congress gone so the president would be unobstructed in the implementation of his will. that type of leader, there is a word for it in the english language, is what we would call a dictator. and so when you have 43% of a political party in a two-party system that has taken on for the first time in american history an authoritarian vent that will smear any person, any decorated combat veteran, career foreign service officers, people that have spent their entire service, their entire lives in service to

the american nation and to the american people. when they will burn it all down in the name of trump, we are in a crisis as a country. what you saw from nancy pelosi was an articulation, and we don't see it very much, but of duty. the sense of duty that should be top of mind for every elected official, every person who has taken an oath has assumed power, as stewards and fiduciaries of the american republic to shepard for our time on earth a stronger union for the next generation. and it's just completely absent from our politics and that's why that was such a remarkable moment today. >> what i also saw was a little bit of relief. the three big hurdles to this phase. one was obviously adam schiff's committee, the investigation. the second there were a lot of questions about how chairman nadler would do.

i heard and i'm curious, i'm sure you have many more and better sources than i do that there was a sense that yesterday went as well as it could have. and now they move on to take us inside what the next phase is for her. >> yeah. so 9:00 on monday morning the intelligence committee, be the counsels from the intelligence committees are going to go to the judiciary committee and testify over the weekend over this weekend judiciary is going to work on drafting these impeachment articles and preparing for both the hearing on monday and the next phase here. and, i mean, yes, there is definitely relief. but i'm just seeing a few thoughts here. back to the original point. you guys both saw, nicole and steve, when nancy pelosi dealt with george bush. a person who she certainly wasn't fond of his policies -- >> to say the least. [ laughter ] >> and still about, does the by the way, still did business with him. they had a fine working relationship. and that's not what we see right

now. so on another point what, i'm seeing right now which is fascinating, is the white house seems to be putting a lot of stock in the senate trial of it being fair. you see the president keep saying this is going to be a fair trial in the senate. it's going to be much better for us. i'm not really sure about that. i mean, the president's not going to have hunter biden and joe biden testifying in the senate. so i just see a big gap between, as we have many times in this administration, between reality and what the white house is thinking is going to happen legislatively. it's not going to be some fever dream for the president in the senate. there's not 51 votes to call hunter biden to testify in the senate. so again every morning the president wakes up and he's being impeached, and just because it's moving to the senate does not mean it's still a majoritarian institution and that's still a tough process for the president that's going to last again another six weeks.

so the politics that are still tricky for the president and they don't seem to fully recognize that. >> your six to eight weeks just sent a dagger through my vacation dreaming heart. >> book that travel insurance, please. >> i know. don't buy those nonrefundable tickets that i love to buy. thank you for spending time with us. after the break a new political ad thrust trump's stability or lack thereof isolation into the world's stage in after a group of world leaders were caught on video laughing at trump. and another conspiracy theory bites the dust. new reporting from "the washington post" reveals for the first time that attorney general barr's hand-picked special prosecutor told that department's watchdog there is no evidence to support one of the right's favorite smears. but the intel community somehow set up the trump campaign. also ahead, rudy giuliani going where very few personal lawyers have ever gone before. he's about to get his client, the president, impeached. but before he does, rudy takes a detour to ukraine to dig up dirt

on trump's rivals. the very thing the president's about to be impeached for. someone will have to explain to me how this is helpful. all those stories coming up. ♪ there are things we would change about work. and there are things we wouldn't. ♪ when work is worth it. work is worth it. work can be closer to home...

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the viral video of world leaders laughing at donald trump was certainly an embarrassment. but using it in a campaign ad is risky for his opponents. even some americans who might not support the president might resent the image of a group of european leaders mocking him. but one campaign took that list. if this ad were cut a hundred

times, it could've crossed that line of mockery into 99 of them. but the campaign that used that ad used it to make a broader, more important, and more ominous point about the president's instability and isolation on the world stage. watch. >> world leaders caught on camera laughing about president trump. several world leaders mocking president trump. >> they're laughing at him. >> my administration has accomplished almost more than any other administration in the history of our country. >> didn't expect that reaction but that's how it goes. >> world leaders mocking and ridiculing him for being completely off balance. >> allies are deeply worried about him. they say he's becoming increasingly isolated. something is very wrong. >> the world sees trump for what he is, insincere, ill informed, and corrupt. and incapable in my view of world leadership. if we give donald trump four

more years we'll have a great difficulty of ever being able to recover america's standing in the world and our capacity to bring nations together. ♪ >> now that's not the only news the biden campaign's making today. vice president biden engaging in what we used to call straight talk with a voter. >> >> . >> that's not true. no one has ever said that. no one has said my son has done, and i did not on any occasion, and no one has ever said it.

>> i didn't say you were doing anything wrong. >> you said i set up my son to work in an oil company. get your words straight, jack. here on msnbc -- >> joining our conversation just in time former chief of staff to vice presidents al gore and adviser to the biden campaign ron. first take on the news today that interaction with a voter getting a lot of attention and then tell us about the strategy behind the ad. >> well, in terms of the interaction with the voters you said the vice president's on a tour of iowa, kind of a pin to your old boss here, straight talk. we call it the no malarkey tour. he's not spreading any bologna and he's not taking any bologna. and of course it's absolutely untrue that everybody sent his son hunter to ukraine to sell access to president obama. i don't even think the folks on fox are even saying that. so he's not going to take the lies. he's going to call out the lies. i think the democrats should

want a nominee who is compared to confront untruth. because whoever we nominate in 2020 is going to face lies every day and be able to call them out. i think the vice president did a good job with that. you know, the ad, as you said, it obviously makes the point. the president is a laughing stock on the world stage. but we know that. i think the more important point of the ad is that he is increasingly isolated on the world stage at a time when we need to be working with our allies on problems like iran, north korea, confronting china. we need to be isolating those countries and instead we are isolating ourselves under president trump's leadership. i think the ad does that very effectively and obviously makes the point that vice president biden is well qualified, experienced, you know, confident on the world stage to reverse that isolation and to help bleed our allies again. >> you and i are going to have some no malarkey here. former staffer to current adviser to this campaign. if biden were my candidate and he came off that interaction and

said how was i? i'd say he was a little hot. if that was a woman or a young woman or a person of color you would have looked like a bully. that would have been my feedback as a staffer. is there any concern -- and my other staffer would be -- and but because if you win, you're running against donald trump. the people that hate you wouldn't like you no matter what you did. what would your take be if he came off the stage and said how did i do? >> i think you have to confront the lies. i don't think he was flarl hot. i think he was very firm. i certainly don't think he bullied that gentleman. i think he called out something that was untrue and that's what he's supposed to do. i think it's really not that different than what we talked about in the last segment of nancy pelosi turning back to the podium and confronting untruths about her motivation and impeachment. i am glad to see democrats fighting back against this. i think we need to be a little tougher as a party, a little firmer as a party. and whether it was speaker pelosi this morning or vice president biden this afternoon,

i am glad to see our team standing up a bit and fighting back a bit. >> we've got eddie glaude and mara gay nodding their head. >> if someone is lying directly to your face i think you need to say that's a lie. >> nothing else has worked. >> i'm not sure no bologna or no malarkey is the language i would use. [ laughter ] >> well, joe biden didn't use that in his defense. that was ron or i. >> but i think it's important that the stakes are so high, it may not be the occasion for civil speech in certain moments. we need to be able to address what's happening in this moment as directly and as passionately as we possibly can. and sometimes that may involve turning up the heat a bit. >> look, this is being totally blunt. but i think that you have to, if you're thinking about running against donald trump or trying to run against donald trump, you have to be confronted with the reality that nothing else worked. so maybe whack-a-mole,

whack-a-lie is what we're left with. >> i think we have indulged in insanity in this country for way long. [ laughter ] i did say to my kids i said i'm not tolerating any malarkey anymore. and my kids were like huh? like i was speaking a different language. let me say this about that ad. i think for a period of for a couple of years the democrats have not figured out how to fight with donald trump. they have been ineffective on the man in the ring. that ad was a direct hit. >> i totally agree. >> because humor is an effective strategic weapon. and, in fact, the president of the united states, outside of the fever swamps of fox news, outside of the republican cloak room, outside of the cult, he is a joke, a clown, a buffoon. that is how he is looked at by our adversaries and by our

allies. in the evidence of that is the leaders of the great democracies in buckingham palace at a reception laughing at the president of the united states, laughing at the american head of state. that is a tragic moment for this country. and it is a dangerous one. i can guarantee you nancy pelosi was abroad last week. the number three official in the u.s. government. no one laughed at nancy pelosi. no one laughed at barack obama. no one laughed at ronald reagan. no one laughed at george w. bush when he went into a meeting representing the american people. the most powerful person in the world, the man in charge of the most potent nuclear arsenal in the world is a laughing stock. and that ad speaks to a fundamental truth about this tragic era in our country. >> mara gay also makes -- it's not subtle, they talk about his instability. and his instability not as an

effort to diagnose him from my host chair, but as what has been documented as what is discussed, as what is on display, seems like another place where the country should be ready to have that conversation. >> yes. it also, i think, gets inside of donald trump's head. i mean, you cringe watching it thinking about the president sitting there watching this, especially as a narcissist apparently with a very fragile ego, what that must feel like. but i think so much of the president's power comes from the idea that he represents people who are being laughed at. and this really turns the tables. >> real quick. >> i'm really hungry for a bologna or malarkey sandwich on toasted wheat. after the show i am going to grab one. i think it was interesting around skirting the ad around the possible dangers. there will certainly be somebody in the president's corner who is like stop laughing at me. but it gets him to question is he's not good at his job. >> new reporting in "the washington post" blows a big

hole through one of donald trump's favorite conspiracy theories about the russia investigation. we will bring it to you next. yot

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and keep the public safe. new reporting in "the washington post" threatens to dismantle one of president trump's favorite conspiracy theories about the origins of the russia investigation. the "post" writing, quote, the prosecutor hand-picked by attorney general william barr to scrutinize for u.s. agencies said he could not offer evidence to the justice department's inspector general to support the suspicions of some conservatives that the case was a setup by american intelligence, people familiar with the matter said. so here's the back story. there are currently two ongoing investigations relating to trump's allegations of being spied on in his 2016 campaign. the first one's being conducted by michael horowitz. he is an independent

investigator whose report is due out next week. we expect it maybe as early as monday. now he's expected to conclude based on people who have seen a draft of that report that the basis for the investigation into the trump campaign and their ties to russia was legitimate. the second investigation is the one that's being handled by u.s. attorney john durham. he was hand-picked by barr to conduct a separate, perhaps less independent review. remember, attorney general barr has tagged along with him on some trips abroad. now the significance of this new report from the "post" is that neither investigation, at least what we know about them so far, supports donald trump's false accusations largely co-signed by a.g. barr. this feels like a bad week for some of the conspiracy theories. i am sure they have stuck already to the people who are inclined to believe them. but in terms of independence and people looking for facts, the right has spent more time than i

can really do justice to building up horowitz and durham. i remember as the mueller report was coming to its conclusion, a trump supporter i know said i'm waiting for horowitz. they have put all their eggs in horowitz and durham finding wrongdoing that based on the "post's" new reporting suggests has not. >> every day by this administration. and the american mind and our culture in this country, we have always had a special place for conspiracy theorist. we are the only people that could land people on the moon and have a significant part of the population believe that it was done on a hollywood backdrop. we saw it on chuck todd on sunday. if a united states senator from louisiana, the allegation that it was the ukrainians, not the russians, that interfered in the

election according to our intelligence services, is a russian intelligence service authored misinformation plot designed to propagandize to confuse the american people. you have never in history, never in the history of this country have you ever seen people in authority in the government parroting the misinformation of a hostile foreign power which targets this country with thousands of nuclear weapons. they are hostile foreign power. they are our adversaries. and it is extraordinary moment. >> to steve's point, what trump was hoping. it's good to take it back to this russia question. what trump and his allies were hoping for, which is that these two independent investigators would confirm the russian version. that's kind of amazing. >> and clear russia. on the one hand i have this reaction of how a sign of the time it is that we are surprised

when an investigation comes back and says the sky is still blue and up is still down. where they failed to stand up a hoax, right? which is what this is. i'm also fascinated that this information which comes from a draft report that "the washington post" has seen no part of is making its way out now. it certainly sets up an inability to then go back in the final version of the report and erase that or modify it. it creates this reporting some accountability for barr on the final report. so i'm really fascinated by this. and it's great reporting. >> i want to ask your follow-up. your colleague adam goldman described with the horowitz product would ultimately be based on some early drafts as cutting through the conspiracy clutter. now, and i think his broader point was that there's stuff in here for both sides. horowitz's credibility lies in the fact that he will find some misconduct or things that weren't done perfectly. and i think that only

strengthens the hands of the people who are against a conspiracy theorist. he didn't put out this good housekeeping seal of approval that everything was perfect. >> they believe that one detail that my colleagues reported on was that there was one falsified email. that's serious and it could be a crime. the fact that he was looking and found a couple of things but couldn't find anything on the central conspiracy theory or at least the central criticism is in fact meaningful, as you say. when we come back, the ukraine scandal engulfing the president rudy giuliani and their parade of misfits headed, guess where? the in-laws have moved in with us. and our adult children are here. so we save by using tide. which means we use less. three generations of clothes cleaned in one wash. anybody seen my pants? #1 stain and odor fighter, #1 trusted. it's got to be tide.

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what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy. but rudy, i don't even know, i know he was going to go to ukraine, and i think he canceled

a trip. but, you know, rudy has other clients other than me. i don't know, maybe they were clients of rudy. you'd have to ask rudy. i just don't know. >> can you explain why your personal rudy giuliani would need to talk to -- >> it sounds like something that's not so complicated. you'd have to ask him. no big deal. >> all the more mill yars with the call logs released this week showing rudy giuliani burning up the phone lines between wherever he calls from, i think his cell phone we are led to believe, and the white house. this rudy i barely knew you is the newest remarkable chapter yet. >> and i think him being in ukraine right now is such a thumb in the face of what's going on in the united states. it's such clear evidence that he is only self-interested, that he is more than likely trying to find evidence to in some ways exonerate himself more than just

simply continuing to pursue this ukrainian conspiracy theory. but i think at the end of the day what we can say is that rudy giuliani does not give a damn about what the country thinks. rudy giuliani only cares about rudy giuliani. that makes him a good friend. >> and he's the subject of a federal investigation that's closing in on him and it is looking at some of his work in ukraine which makes it all the more puzzling that under that kind of scrutiny he's back in ukraine. nbc news has just confirmed that rudy giuliani is in kiev right now talking to some of the most controversial figures at the center of trump's ukraine scandal. the "new york times" adding this. mr. giuliani is using the trip which has not been previously reported, to help prepare more episodes of a documentary series for a conservative television outlet promoting his pro-trump anti-impeachment narrative. >> i do think after 14,000 trump lies and under the theory that

even a broke clock is right twice a day, i'm going to be with trump on this. i'm going to think that that's a truthful answer. he's like i don't know what he's doing. i've read every story. i have watched every tv package. i have no idea what the hell he's doing over there. i don't think anybody knows other than he's up to no good. i think it's all going to come out before we get to the bottom of all of this stuff. but it is extraordinary to watch this guy who was a legitimate certified admired american hero. and to ponder, if you had said ten years ago that the lead paragraph when the day comes, as it does for all, in his obituary, it's going to be this season of insanity. it's just incredible to think it. >> just leaves you speechless. >> mara? >> i would say as somebody who covered city hall, that it is a

sub plot of a greek tragedy, frankly, within this entire ordeal, in which there seems to be a thin line between the cops and the robbers at this point because this is a man who went from prosecuting the mob to paling around with god knows who in ukraine and potentially is a criminal. i also have to say that this is such hubris to just continue to break the law and be a traitor to your country. everyone's innocent until proven guilty. but if there was a crime committed, thinking about as mayor how he was a tough on crime mayor, there is a very local irony. and justice will be him being brought into account the way he treated so many new yorkers. and so, you know, i just think it's complete impunity is what he is expecting.

>> i'm fascinated by one thing the story reveals is by ken vogel, that he was there to film a propaganda film. and it just shows you the merger of conservative pro-trump media and the political party of the president and the presidency. it's john solomon, it's this news outlet. is he there as a reporter, as a source, as a fixer? it's not clear. it's all kind of blurred together. and that is very evocative of this trump era. >> the juxtaposition yesterday of these law professors to sit in front of the judiciary law committee yesterday and say. and, hey, wait, hold my beer. he is over there continuing this conspiracy, continuing this conduct in the middle of the president being impeached for

doing exactly what rudy giuliani is doing. it is an affront to the impeachment process. he is digging his client even deeper in a hole here. perhaps steve's right. perhaps trump really doesn't know but i'm skeptical of that. and even if he didn't know i'm sure the cell phone records will be burning up all night with rudy boasting whatever craziness he is doing over there. this is a sign. well, we have to put an end to this kind of behavior by our top government officials and their agents. and that's what's going on right now. it needs to be stopped. >> you know, as you are talking, ron, i am just thinking of gordon sondland's testimony where he said i did what the president told me to do and what the president told him to do was to work with rudy. right? >> right. he told that to not only gordon sondland. he told that to the president o rudy's a good man. he's a respected man. you should work with rudy on this.

so the idea that rudy's free-lancing is completely implausible to me. he has been the president's agent. one of the three amigos on this project. and he's over there up to no good on behalf of donald trump. >> all right. up next, one of putin's favorite talking points. it was ukraine that hacked the election. how many americans actually believe it? election how many americans actually believe it ♪ applebee's new sizzlin' entrées. now starting at $9.99. there are things we would change about work. and there are things we wouldn't. ♪

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americans don't buy one of donald trump's debunked talking points. only 30% of them actually believe ukraine interfered in

the 2016 election instead of russia. this number surprised us. among fox viewers, that number soars to 44%. >> yeah. it's fascinating. and the question is can they get that 30% closer to the 44%? the average fox news viewer. it just shows you and look, let's point out. the ukraine hacked the dnc theory is a, you know, faking the moon landing size conspiracy theory. it's completely bonkers. it has no basis in fact whatsoever. and almost half of the viewers of fox believe it. that shows you the power the president has and his media outlet have to spread this and make people believe it. and, frankly, it's an insurance policy. if you're a conservative senator, how could you even think of convicting the president when, in fact, the whole thing is a hoax on the russian side? >> and also, you know, you've got people like donald trump's former homeland security advisor who had a very emotional appearance at the beginning of the impeachment scandal.

saying i went to him on this debunked ukraine theory and i tried to disavow him of it. it really does underscore, the people that testify that described his mind as poisoned. it does sort of describe a totally contaminated universe of people who are immune from facts. >> also, the president himself imp sui am sure you could make a case he probably spends more time watching fox than talking with tom bosser. >> it goes to show you it's not so much about facts as it is about the messenger. and so you trust donald trump to fight for you. or you trust fox news. or you trust your pastor. whoever it is. in this case, it's definitely fox news, right? but so it's -- it's not about the facts and i think for the democrats and not just dem kratds bkrat krats but anybody who cares about the rule of law and the constitution at this point. the question is, how do you fight that? there are some historical lessons we can look at but that's a trick yes question the democrats have yet to address. >> all right. we have to sneak in our very last break. we'll be right back. last break

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glaude, nick confessore, mara, steve schmidt, most of all to you for watching. "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts now. welcome to thursday. it's "meet the press daily." good evening and i am chuck todd here in washington. on a day that's raised more questions about impeachment than answers. it began with house speaker nancy pelosi formally instructing democratic leaders to proceed with drafting articles of impeachment. essentially, the indictment that they would send over to the senate in the wake of a house intelligence committee's report about the president's conduct with ukraine. but then pelosi told reporters that she believes the heart of the democrats' case for removing president trump doesn't revolve around ukraine. it revolves around russia.