>> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, finally friday, december 6th. along with joe, willie and me we have mike barnicle. historian, author of the soul of america and roger's professor of the -- >> wow. >> meacham is here. >> swanny. >> also with us pulitzer prize winning columnist and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. and. >> yeah. >> wow? >> oh my gosh. >> she's back, washington anchor from bbc, world news america, katy, where have you been? >> i feel like i've been gone for ages and gone for no time at all because so much has happened and yet so little has changed. >> want to hear more about your -- >> put that on a coffee mug. >> she was all over the world,

we'll put it that way. it is so great have you back. >> just a great summary, caddie, politics in the united states is in disarray, but politics in great britain is even worse. >> amazing. >> so we're still here. >> yeah. >> we're still here. you know, also mika and i were talking about this, willie. you go through new morning consult, trump approval ratings, and it really shows how unpopular he is. and in some of these states that they -- they show how impeachment is really either keeping him from gaining momentum with all the -- all the money he's wasting, and it's not moving anything. ohio, he's minus five. pennsylvania minus seven, under water. iowa under water, minus 13. minnesota under water, minus 13.

>> and the biggest two for last. >> wisconsin, minus 14. michigan minus 14. >> that would explain his mood. >> it explains his mood, first of all. but secondly all of these clowns that have been going around saying that impeachment's backfiring and this is hurting -- no, he can gain no momentum. he's getting absolutely slaughters in these state polls. and, again, everybody always says, you know, don't look at the national polls, the national polls don't matter. trump can win or loose by four or five percentage points in the popular vote but he'll still win the states. man, mind -- we're less than a year out from the general election. he's under water by double digits in iowa, in wisconsin, and in michigan. and doing really badly in other states. and his approval rating, look at that, iowa 42 approve, 55 disapprove. >> i mean, we all know the story

of the 2016 election, 77, 78,000 votes across three states. those states now michigan minus 14. there's wisconsin, he's minus 14. pennsylvania he's minus 7. you can throw in ohio, as you mentioned, which has been written off as a republican state, he's down five points there. and if you want to go over to the is unbelsoun belt, he's plu north carolina he's even, georgia he's down three points. that's a snapshot of where the president is 11 months away from the election. >> this is why the states are important. you see them colored red. donald trump can't get elected without winning wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. and you start -- >> again, would explain his mood. >> you start looking at iowa. i'll tell you what, there's another state there if i'm the trump campaign i'm very nervous about, it's in the southwest, arizona. that one is going to be tough. so this year they're not only

going to be fighting to win rust belt states that republicans don't usually win. mike, they're going to also be fighting in arizona and georgia just may be very close. >> you know, if you combine the results of the morning consult polls state by states that we were just referring to that willie pointed out, with the survey of 110,000 emin "the new york times" today about the issues that are moving people, both republican and democrat, i was very surprised to see that impeachment is the number one issue that moves people, that motivates people, both democrats and republicans, john. i don't know what it's like in tennessee, but i never would have guessed that you could approach an average person and say what issue is really tops on your priority list? and it's impeachment for a lot of people. one way or another, either impeach him or don't impeach him. republicans obviously don't impeach him. >> it's an interesting question because i think people want wash to get back to work on things that matter more directly to

them. but they do -- trump is now paying the price for a culture ub ubiquity that he has rid tone power. he has programmed american politics as a reality show and that has served him very well. but now there's this existential issue and people want to get a verdict. >> we talked about arizona, he's minus four even in arizona. and yesterday a horrible split screen for him. yesterday we were showing images of not only in america, but across the world of two things. one, nancy pelosi saying now chef has saying she has no choice but to act. and the other side of the split screen, the aftereffect of world leaders standing in a circle mocking the president of the united states for his clown-like

behavior overseas. >> yeah, that -- that image that kind of really went all around the world of boris johnson, emmanuel macron, justin trudeau standing together and seeming to laugh at president trump. for me, that sums up where america has got to over the course of the past few months. that people are not just given up on this president and his ability to lead on the world sage, they think it's a bit of a joke. and they went, i think, from hoping that america to turn around and they could find a way to deal with donald trump. emmanuel macron put all of that effort into smoozing donald trump. now you see them laughing at him in london. you know that's what this president hates. america's not going to be laughed at at the was being laughed at in london. it's a real sign of where america's reputation has fallen just in the course of the past few months.

and impeachment plays into that, the fact that he's flying back to these impeachment hearings, people are very conscious of that back in europe. >> and he rushed out of nato. he wanted a grand exit after -- after the ceremonies for the 70th anniversary. but after the circle of even boris johnson who said, hey, stay away, don't stand so -- don't stand so, don't stand so close to me. because you know in the immortal words of british philosopher sting. because it's going hurt him in the upcoming election. but, again, in politics, donald trump's going from being feared, and i will say in politics there's nothing wrong with being feared. the worst -- well, actually the worst thing in politics is people feeling sorry for you. >> yeah. >> the next -- the second to worst thing is people laughing at you. what used to be fear has now

turned into farce. and donald trump is now the butt of every joke. because they understand there is -- i mean, hell, if you're iran, you can bomb saudi arabian facilities. you know he's going to do nothing about it. he threatens, he tweets, even of the impeachment scandal he didn't want the investigation. he supported the press conference. >> yeah. >> he's a shallow joke to these world leaders. and they've caught on. >> and he's become proven to be distrustful around the world so they feel comfortable mocking him. this whi which is a very important point to make given the place in the world this country may have lost under this president. so let's go to house speaker nancy pelosi who has given the -- it really was her day yesterday, gave the green light to committee chairs to draft articles of impeachment against

president trump. here is her announcement early yesterday morning. and also speaking at a town hall last night. >> the facts are uncontested. the president abused his power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of our national security by withholding military aid, and crucial oval office meeting in exchange for an announcement of investigation into his political rival. our democracy is what is at stake. the president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit. let me just say this. this isn't -- we are saying ukraine. the ukraine was the vehicle of the president's action asking a president of another country to make an announcement that he was investigating the president's political opponent and withholding military assistance that was voted by the congress

of the united states unless and until he did so, the president did so. this is about ukraine, this is about russia who benefited by our withholding of that military assistance? russia. it was about russia. so sometimes people say, well, i don't know about ukraine, i don't know that much about ukraine. well, our adversary in this is russia. all roads lead to putin. understand that. this is the first president has committed all of these things as the constitutional experts said yesterday, nobody else has even come close. not richard nixon even came close to his -- dishonoring his own oath of office. they had impeached bill clinton for personal indiscretion and misrepresenting about it. impeached him. some of these same people are saying, oh, this doesn't rise to

impeachment. well right there impeaching bill clinton for being stupid in terms of something like that. >> well, let me just again clarify to the democrats stop saying that, he committed perjury in the sexual harassment suit about sexual harassment. so, anyway, we put that to the side on this it was stupid. no, it was significant. >> she was making a point, though. this is a far more serious -- >> it is, but democrats have far better arguments to make and they need to stop saying this. the united states supreme court disbarred bill clinton. a lot of lawyers that if you -- if you look into their closets would be disbarred for that. i'm sorry to go off on this, but democrats again, they weaken their arguments when they do this, all right. the arkansas supreme court also disbarred bill clinton. that's a side note. now, let's go to the heart of the matter.

a historic day yesterday for nancy pelosi, gene robinson, and, you know, you've got a great column where you talk about how donald trump is impeaching himself. and that is one thing that does -- >> it really is true. >> mr. trump does stand apart from mr. clinton and mr. nixon because they were far better liars in so many ways, as david said. >> they didn't say get over it. >> and they didn't -- and neither one of them would have said, yes, yes, i subverted american democracy and helped our enemies in russia and i actually am trying to have a foreign power rig the 2020 election, get over it. i don't think any of them would have said that. so we're in this bizarre moment now where donald trump admits doing things, again, far worse constitutionally than bill clinton did. and even, i agree with her, even worse than what richard nixon

did in watergate, and that say very high -- >> that's big. >> -- bar. >> very high bar. and what donald trump did is specifically the kind of thing that the founders were worried about. foreign influence in our elections. a president who -- who does illegal and unconstitutional things in order to perpetuate his power and to stay in office. i mean, he did all the things that they've wrote the impeachment clause for, and he has admitted it all. he has boasted of it all. it's just astounding. you know, it was an extraordinary day yesterday. it was, as you said, interest was nancy pelosi's day. the moment, of course, that really jumped out at me was the other appearance when she was asked if she hates president trump. and she went off.

and she -- and she gave that brief speech that will be played -- >> why don't we -- >> you want to see that and then we can talk. >> let's roll that. this is incredible. the picture of the day is nancy pelosi with her finger up. and she always just kind of pushesing ba pushing back a little bit. i found when i interviewed her when someone says something untoward, when someone pushes her in a direction that she finds to be wrong or insulting, she goes right to her catholic roots and let's them guide her. take a listen. >> do you hate the president, madam secretary? because -- >> i don't hate anybody. >> representative -- >> i was raised in a catholic house, we don't hate anyone. not anybody in the world. so don't you accuse me of -- >> i did not accuse you. >> you do. >> i asked a question. >> you did dwr? >> representative collins yesterday said the democrats are

doing this simply because they don't like the guy. >> let me just say this. i think the president is a coward when it comes to helping kids who are afraid of gun violence. i think he is cruel when he doesn't deal with helping our dreamers of which we're very proud i think he's in denial about the cons -- about the climate crisis. however, that's about the election. this is about the lec -- take it up in the election. this is about the constitution of the united states and the facts that lead to the president's violation of his oath of office. and as a catholic, i recent your using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me. i don't hate anyone. i was raised in a way that is full of a heart full of love and always prayed for the president. and i still pray for the president. i prayed for t for the presidene time. so don't mess with me when it comes to words like that. >> god, i love her. >> you should know better.

>> by the way -- >> badly worded, dumb question. >> it was a question that was intended to pro voke. a far different response than what he got. what she talks about, it's always very moving. she talks about her faith and she does that also behind the scenes when we visit her and we talk about her parents and we talk about her family and we talk about, you know, her legacy. innocence talks about her faith a lot. again, when no cameras are on. and she talks about, you know -- >> you don't have to look very far. >> i remember asking her about her faerther, what would your father think? >> i believe actually my father is watching over me every day, so is my mom. i'm a catholic, i have faith. and they guide me. and my faith guides me. again, behind closed doors. and what a contrast to the two dimensional left-wing coastal characters that trumpists try to

paint of nancy pelosi and other democrats. this is a woman who is, she's moved by faith. and by the way, her faith does not allow her do what so many republicans faith allow them to do, turn a blind eye to little children dying in u.s. custody. turn a blind eye to little children being locked up in cages. turn a blind eye to an administration who actually set goals far harsher and far more extreme than what they actually managed to do in terms of ripping babies from mothers and locking them up in cages and letting them suffer, having what? 12, 13-year-old girls have to take care of 2-year-old babies because the trump administration is so obscenely targeted babies and toddlers as a weapon in

their plan to have a harsher. >> report today of a 16-year-old that died in u.s. custody. >> and another child died in the u.s. custody. i wonder if maybe james rosen would like to ask donald trump, do you hate children or do you hate jesus? >> that's a good question. >> do you not believe in the teachings of jesus christ, let the little children come. or if someone does something to one of these are the the mill stone is placed aid round their neck and they're drowned at the bottom of the ocean. why do they not ask those questions of president trump? it would be no less pro vocative of the question that he asked yesterday. they're the ones that send out the force people, local news people to actually read the trump talking points or be fired. >> the reason she stopped and turn, she was on her way out, if you didn't see the video and listening in the car, she was on

her way out, she stopped and turned and took that question and went back to the podium is because she resented the question on its face, but also the underlying message of the question is that you're doing this impeachment inquiry for personal reasons, because you guys just don't like donald trump. she's trying to make the case, no, have you not listened to the evidence over the last several weeks and have you not read the mueller report? this announcement yesterday is an extra order far leap from march when she gave an interview in the "washington post" and said, quote, he's just not worth it. impeachment is too divisive,away don't need to go through dhoun ro down this road with him. what she's seen is we have to do this as a matter of constitutional duty now. >> speaker pelosi is the only american politician with whom i've had endless discussions about st. agustin. that may worry america that the speaker is worried about st. agustin. but she's very serious about

this. i think as powerful as this is, what she said when she got back to the podium is the essence of the matter. and she is the democrat, as you say, who has said, take it up in the election. i'm not -- it was a brilliant, and here's why i think it was so important. it was brilliant because it was intuitive. she wasn't scripted on this. she said climate, kids, that's for the issues, that's for the election, go for that. this is about our enemy and our security. and that's the argument. and she's not trying to overturn an election. she's not trying to fight by other means a battle they couldn't win in 16. this is an active, ongoing to go to gene's point, scenario that the founders worried about. that we would have american politicians on foreign pay rolls. >> john is absolutely right. that's exactly the important thing about what she said. in addition to it being nancy

pelosi unscripted, the new hampshire nancy pelosi that we've all seen in small groups. feisty is probably too tame a word. but, an eloquent and passionate but also just that she said put the election stuff aside. fight that out in the election. this is not about trying to unelect a president. it's about the constitution. and we had no choice. and i thought that was -- she made that point in the most sort of passionate and eloquent way that she -- that she could have and that she ever has. and i thought that was a really important moment. >> joe, she --. >> go ahead, katy. >> she made another point on that last night that i thought was very important saying, look, when it came to the prospect of impeaching george bush when she was speaker of house, she resisted that.

she was on the intelligence committee. she knew that iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction, but she didn't think that amounted to a case for impeaching president george bush. i think she set that up very clearly yesterday. there was the compelling national security evidence on ukraine that led the democrats to feel they had to go through these impeachment investigations. but there have not been when she was in a similar position with george bush. this was not personal. this was not about a republican president she was trying to unseat, it was about the facts of the case. >> here she is talking about her legacy last night. we'll play that and make a point on the other side. take a look. >> this impeachment process is historical. how do you want to be remembered as a part of it. >> as part of it? no, i want to be remembered as part of the affordable care act, i want to be -- >> people might not realize it

but protecting obamacare was so important to you you said that you, quote, would have been happy to go home if hillary clinton had won in 2016 and, thus, obamacare would have been safe. so let me just ask you the next logical question. if a democrat wins in 2020, would you feel free to go home because obamacare would be protected or not? >> well, i'll say i'm not on a timetable, i'm on a mission. >> that's like 12 hours after she was making the announcement. but, mike, you know, it seems to me that in going back to the point you were making the question james rosen asked and going back to the report about the 16-year-old boy, guatemalan boy who dmied border patrol custody and the report is out of propublica where 'it appears this nurse was saying that he had a 103 degree temperature,

that the nurse said he must go to the hospital. they made the decision not to send him to the hospital. they said they found him dead the next morning. it appears that's even a lie and that he was found dead by another boy in a cell with him. this is where we are with this president. and, mike, it seems to me that nancy pelosi is doing a lot more than serving as speaker of the house. she's filling a void, a leadership void and a moral void. >> exactly. >> in this country. >> by the way, a moral void that evangelicals used to fill. >> that's right. >> a moral void now that they do not fill because white evangelicals are more supportive of donald trump -- of these policies, if you look at the polls, white evangelicals are more supportive of the caging of children, of these people dying inside -- inside of prison, these children. look at every poll. >> concrete cell. >> they support -- are more supportive of these policies which are i don't care what red

letter bible you have, i don't care -- i do not care. look at the red letters. this is the antithesis of jesus's teachings. and you can even be a back slidden bad dislike like me and know what is happening on our border to these children is the antithesis of everything that jesus taught. and yet, we have to depend on a liberal from san francisco instead of evangelicals because -- >> well, the interesting part -- >> why? >> -- that we're seeing over the past ten minutes, you saw multiple aspects of who she is. you saw nancy pelosi, the leader of the democratic party in this country. forget everyone else running for president or whatever, she is the leader of the democratic party. you saw nancy delaware sandro

with her roots in baltimore politics standing on a stage saying don't mess with me. you saw and heard nancy pelosi not an idea log but a woman of great compassion and great faith who is concerned -- she has faith in the country, she has faith in her own faith, but she lives by a different code than a lot of politicians do. she truly feels for young children. i mean, they ripped 700,000 people off of food stamps two or three days ago. she is moved daily by the daily level of cruelty inflicted upon this country by the trump administration. children at the border, sick children in hospitals, hungry children in america, these are things that move her. these are the foundations of her faith, but also her political faith. >> make one last point on the

substance of what we heard her say a few minutes ago. there's been a lot of question about whether the mueller report would be pulled into these articles of impeachment or if it would be narrowly focussed on ukraine. she gave a long speech in there about all roads leading to russia. she said a lot of people don't get the ukraine story maybe or why it's important, all roads lead to russia. i would take that perhaps as a signal that adam schiff, jerry nadler and the other democrats may bring the mueller report or at least parts of it into these articles of impeachment. >> yeah. >> and really quickly, jon meacham, what's the answer? i mean, why have white evangelicals who, you know, i saw during hurricane katrina were first on the ground. when the bush administration wasn't there, they were first on the ground. they were there when we were helping in mississippi, louisiana, they were there. they mattered. they cared. why is it that every poll shows that white evangelicals are the

ones who support donald trump's immigration policies and basically say they don't care about these children who are locked in cages? basically they deserve it? >> it's the ideatry of power. they've been blinded in cal thomas's old proois phrashrase, the light. they were worried that the religious right as it become more influential would lose its bearings and become a self-fulfilling movement as opposed to a gospel-fulfilling movement. and i think that for a host of reasons having do with tribalism, a sense of siege, and a self-importance, a very unbiblical sense that their mission is the most important, their judges are the most important, and they have, i believe, in many, many cases

they have chosen temporal power over the implications of their message. >> and federal judgeships over children. >> yeah. >> you can look through the gospels, you can look through the be attitudes, the certainly month on the mount, look at all of jesus's -- anybody offended by what i'm saying here, just read the bible today. that will be a good thing for you. read jesus's words, that will be a good thing for you. and match jesus's words with these polls that show white evangelicals support this policy more than anybody else. and, again, not only the antithesis of jesus's teachings, but i will say the antithesis of everything i saw as a baptist after hurricanes, after natural disasters with -- i mean, people believed they were jesus's hands on earth during these crises.

why are they blinded to the suffering on the border with these little children who keep dying in u.s. custody? >> because they are -- they have made a calculation that power is paramount. and it's temporal power. and they told us to put not thigh trust thy trust in princes and they skipped that point. coming up, we'll talk to mark warner. plus, the mayor of new york city, bill de blasio who has some thoughts on his predecessor's candidacy for president. also, things get heated between joe biden and a voter in iowa. what -- >> wow. >> -- trig heard thgered that e? >> that was a fat moment in american politics right there. ♪ fat moment in american politics right there. ♪ lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose.

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there. you know the numbers. you guys got it all wrong about what happened and what -- >> you said trump -- >> i do. look, it's not fake, it's just bad judgment. you all thought that what happened was the party moved extremely to the left after hillary. aoc was a new party. she's a bright, wonderful person. but where's the party? come on, man. >> come on, man. >> come on, man. >> at least we didn't call you jack. >> no malarky. >> that was an exclusive look at this sunday's episode of axios on hbo featuring a special interview with former vice president joe biden. joining us now, cofounder of axios, mike allen. happy friday? >> happy friday! >> speaking to that, mike's an alabama fan, his family's an alabama fan. we have to talk about the most important event, sec championship game. >> yes. >> lsu/georgia, what do you think? >> i think ls u.u is in the

championship either way. georgia has to win. i think lsu is uniquely great year, offense, defense, great team. >> mike. >> i'm going lsu. >> you got to. mike. >> you don't bet against carvel, especially that the table. >> meacham. >> is this a debate tournament? >> look at mr. swanny. >> he's so above it all. >> i'm hoping georgia does it. we've beaten alabama and georgia in a couple of heartbreakers through the years, and it's their time. i'd love to see that. >> and if they win, they get two sec teams. no one else wants that but we do. >> we do want that. that would be great. go dogs. back to joe biden. here is that exchange between joe biden and a voter who questioned his son's overseas business dealings during a campaign stop in iowa. >> i've got two problems with you. one is your damn near as old as i am. too old. we all know trump has been

messing around in ukraine. you, on the other hand, sent your son over there to get a job and work for a gas company that he had no experience with [ inaudible ] in order to get access to the president. so you're selling access to the president just like he is. so you've got -- >> you're a damn liar, man. that's not true and no one has ever said that. no one -- >> i said ee it on the tv. >> you see it on tv. that's why i'm not said dent tear. i get up and -- >> let's -- >> let him go. let him go. >> look, the reason i'm vung because i've been around a long time and i know [ inaudible ] and i get things done. that's why i'm running. you want to get my shape on, let's do pushups together. let's run, let's do whatever you want to do. on the truth. on the truth.

no one has said my son has done anything wrong and i did not on any occasion and no one has ever said it, not one -- >> i didn't say you were doing anything wrong. >> you sid set up my son to work in an oil company, isn't that what you said? get your words straight, jack! >> come on, jack. listen, we had a little disagreement at the table. i think this is good for joe, am i wrong? >> the motion of i'm going to defend my son is good. i think he needs a better answer about what happened. i know you're hearing that stuff on tv, that's the real fake news. here's what happened once and for all. i think he should have a clear substantive answer to go with some of the emotion. >> but, mike, that retort had everything. he said jack. >> yes. >> he did the pushup challenge. >> no. >> more importantly, he was off the cuff. and he wasn't sort of stumbling around and, again, rou knoyou k he's defending his son.

if joe biden spends the rest of the campaign defending barack obama and his family, he's okay. >> no. but if he spends the rest of his campaign being put on the defense about his son and burisma, you've got to take this -- >> yeah. >> donald trump isn't going to let him off of the hook. you're going to, in your mind, if you're going to vote for joe biden, you want a guy who's going to walk across the stage like that to donald trump. >> yeah, but you don't yell at a voter. i mean, i love joe biden, i think he could be a great president think there he's going to win. but i didn't like it. and i felt like he should have gone after the attack on his age and say, i'm stronger, i'm -- >> he did. he said pushups. >> and you don't have the information right on my son. and watching that on tv last night, my daughter's little dog cowered in the corner. she didn't like it. >> come on, we don't -- >> yes, we do.

dogs know. >> dogs do know. >> dogs know. >> this was frustration boiling over. when i sat down with vice president biden in storm lake, iowa, this week, the number one surprise for me was how mad he is at the press. furious, spitting. and we saw it a little bit in that clip, but there's more in the axios on hbo interview special sunday 6:30. he is -- knows that these questions are not going to go away, knows he doesn't have a perfect answer, and his frustration is, like, there are a lot of what's been said about him in ukraine is bogus. but some had it is very valid. and there's not been a correct answer to what hunter did, why he was chosen. like, that's not something there's a good answer for. >> i mean, the correct answer is, i don't like what hunter did. he's a grown man, he made his own decisions and it wasn't against the law and it's being -- he's being defamed by trump folks as being a criminal

and as doing something inappropriate and criminal. it was not criminal. i personally wouldn't have done it. he's a grown man, i'm the one running for president. it's not hard to say. >> jon meacham. >> hunter biden is a globe mrow and you can't paint this as a joe biden issue. >> at the risk of total self-parody, 19 eight 8 dan rather sets him up with an eight or nine-minute iran contra recap, it's a live interview on the night of the state of the union. bush goes after him. it was a significant political moment. 41, future 41 was waurd aboutor it, called his son, asked george w. do you think that was okay? george w. said, dad, that was great because he showed emotion and he showed that he could fight back. and i think what biden's doing there is what people are going

remember. and also in a trumpian world, you know, this is, i think, where the ethos of the country is. >> it was clearly not -- >> misplaced. katy, jump in. >> we are in the middle of impeachment proceedings. around this table we've come one two or three plausible things that joe biden could have sunset defense of this situation. he had has to clarify his position when it comes to hunter's position as a board member of burisma. he failed to do that. if nothing else, why doesn't he have an answer to that question ready to go? and he doesn't need to be so defensive about it. he can sound on the offense about it. but, to me, he came across as defensive without a very clear argument and didn't really -- and sort of dismissed even the question. state department officials said they had concerned about hunter biden taking a position on the board of burisma. he has to address it and he's just got to have a better answer than, oh, it's all, you know, a

lie, jack, you've got it all wrong. and i didn't -- i thought he sounded defensive and slightly offputting, myself, not fighting for his son. >> i hate to argue with someone who lost an empire, but -- >> ooh. >> oh, wow. >> seriously, we're going there? >> however, in a world where donald trump is president and we don't have his tax returns and he doesn't apologize for anything, why having a raw emotional moment, i just -- i think that -- i think we're having -- i think to some extent we analyze these things in a pretrumpian universe and for better or for worse, and many ways for worse. >> you arguing that all politicians should become trump now? >> no, but at the same time democrats want somebody that can fight back against donald trump and they understand that passion is a lot more informed than talking points. i agree with you and a i degree wi i agree that he needs a butch

better response. but he needs a quicker response. it needs to be this. i love my son, he's an adult. you can talk to him about this. the only thing i know is that nobody has ever shown any evidence that what he did was against the law. if you have any other questions, talk to him. but i love my son and i'm not going to be talking about my son. i'm going to be talking about how i can get your son and your daughter into college. i'm going to be talking about how i can get them good jobs when they get out of school. i'm going to talk about how they're not going to have to spend all their money taking care of you because i'm going to fight for social security and i'm going tonight to save medicare and i'm going to fight to save medicaid and i'm going to fight to make sure that you're going to be taken care of in your golden years. get it away from him, stop fighting about it, just move back to the issue. >> you know, joe -- >> well -- >> and mika specifically to your complaint and your observation

and katty's observation. when hunter biden took that job, that role on the board of burisma, it was in the wake of his brother's death. and his father was in a fog for quite a period of time. and part of his father is stim, i thistill i think in a fog ove the death of bow biden. so when hunter tells his father ber miss burisma, i don't think he heard a word. fine, whatever you want to do, son. but i think he was lost in an emotional -- just caught up still in the death of his son beau. >> it could be, but i think us analyzing that is not -- >> well, he's not going to say that on air. >> and he shouldn't say that on air. and, by the way, he should have -- if -- if he had the wherewithal do it, he should have told his son no, stay the

hell out of ukraine. i think we can agree on that. >> does everybody want to be judged on decisions their kids make? is that where we are going? he is a grown man. i believe hunter is in his 50s at this point. >> 40 something. >> this is -- i don't know. >> gene robinson. >> yeah. you know, i am totally with meacham on this. in fact, i thought that was one of biden's better moments during the campaign. i thought it was -- of it was -- he was -- he was seen to fight back and he was -- he was quick on it, as a matter of fact. he came right back. there was a vigor and an anger to his response that i think fits the political moment perfectly. and i'm sorry, we don't all have to be donald trump. but somebody's got to stand on a stage with donald trump, assuming debates, and come back at him. and i thought that's one of the things that democrats worry

about joe biden is, is he up to this campaign? will he fight back? and there he was fighting back. i thought it was one of the better moments he's had. >> you know, willie, proving once again that -- all the men like what joe biden doid yesterday. but women and little dogs were put off. >> the dog ran out. >> she walked away and crawled into a little box. >> for the record, a grooid wi t he needs a better explanation. >> and be kind to your voter. >> let me go back to your interview before we got to the moment in iowa, which is this idea of the party moving to the left and biden sort of staying in the middle and letting the race come back to him. he didn't bite on medicare for all, which hurt elizabeth warren. bernie sanders still doing well. he's got to like where he is. if you look at the charts over the last year of polling, he's sort of dipped a little, gone back up, but he's been rock solid where elizabeth warren's

been up and down, now down. pete buttigieg is rising, but joe biden just kind of remains wright right whe right where he's been. >> he's been a story of resilience. and we saw him defending him. the activist thought that aoc was the party, where the party was. he's saying she's a talented young politician, but that's not where the party is. come on, man, where's the party? >> where is it. >> mika wouldn't you like to see him walk across the stage with a microphone in his hand and going after donald trump with children at the border? >> i think he's the best candidate. by just didn't think this -- i don't know. i was uncomfortable. >> the cali meter. >> the cali meter. look at her in the box. this is what she did. i sent it to adrian. look at her, she just walked right in there. >> are we sure it was because of the biden moment? >> what's that? >> the cali meter. >> she was like, oh. >> can you get that on axios? >> done. >> we'll put it out on axios.

i'm sending it to you. all right. coming up, u.s. officials are concerned russia may have known about the president's dealings with ukraine months before the effort was exposed by a whistle-blower. we'll explain that ahead on "morning joe." we'll explain that ahead on "morning joe."

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current and former u.s. officials tell "the washington post" that president trump routinely spoke with rudy giuliani and others using cell phones vulnerable to monitoring by foreign intelligence services like russia. phone records released by the house intelligence committee show this week extensive communications between giuliani and others involved in the effort to pressure ukraine, including a blocked number

investigators suspect belongs to the president. the officials tell the paper that the revelations raise the possibility that russia was able to learn about the aspects of trump's attempt to get ukraine to investigate a political rival months before that effort was exposed by a whistle-blower report and the impeachment inquiry itself. according to the post, former white house chief of staff john kelly and intelligence officials made a concerted attempt in 2017 to get trump to use secure white house lines. but when trump realized that this enabled kelly to compile daily logs of his calls and the identities of those he was speaking to, trump became annoyed and reverted to using his cell phone. >> gene robinson, of course, this is the same president who got elected president in part by constantly talking about how reckless hillary clinton was with classified material and emails. zwhae is far, far worse.

he gets on the phone where the russians can hear -- >> totally listen to him. >> not on the russians -- >> it's not the russians, it's the chinese. >> the chinese, the saudis, i mean, you can just go down the zblift y list. >> the whole world is listening. they're all listening. it is not that hard to listen to a cell phone conversation and it is just astounding. the president of the united states would use the most sort of insecure communications you could -- you could possibly use. but this is donald trump and so, yeah, vladimir putin knows a whole lot more about what's going on in the president's head than even we do, even with the twitter feed. because he knows what he's saying to rudy and sean hannity and what he's talking about with judge janine and all of his -- all of his buddies. it's just -- but here we are.

it's astounding. >> it's been in public domain for some time now. if you're on a cell phone, you just have to understand the russians, the chinese, the israelis, the saudis, uae, you just go down the zblift it's a threat to our national security to have a president using an open cell line. >> you go down the list. if these countries want to listen to our phone calls, they're going to listen to our phone calls. by the way, the united states of america, you know. it's just -- it's what governments do now. which, that's the reality we live in. to the buyer be weware, but don trump knows better and yet he's still spouting off classified information over the telephone every time he uses his phone. >> you know, joe, but this is just part and parcel of the upcoming campaign that's going on now, obviously. and one of the roots of the campaign i think is going to be based upon the fact that as you just spelled out, donald j.

trump just is not up to doing the job. he just doesn't know what it entails to be the president of the united states. he just doesn't. >> doesn't know -- >> all right. >> -- doesn't care. gene, thank you so much. coming up, a historic day and a very long day for house speaker nancy pelosi. 12 hours after announcing the decision to draft articles of impeachment against president trump, she was still up defending it. plus, new polling puts the president's approving rating under water in half a dozen key rust belt states. >> these numbers are -- >> this is not good. >> -- genuinely bad. >> we'll go through the numbers straight ahead on "morning joe." >> we'll go through the numbers straight ahead on "morning joe." i was diagnosed with parkinson's. i had to retire from law enforcement. it was devastating. one of my medications is three thousand dollars per month. prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. for sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. and we won't stop.

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to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. what did you discuss with lev parnas? >> well, i don't even know because i don't -- i have never met parnas. like i filed in federal court and so, you know, it's a great question because many people want to know, including myself. so, you know -- >> you never had any phone conversation with him? >> we -- we have not been able to confirm that yet. >> i mean, you don't think he would remember if you had a conversation? >> you have to remember -- you have to remember we are the house intelligence committee oversight committee, okay. so we get calls from people every day. >> okay. >> all walks of life. i get them from all over the world. allies and people that aren't our allies. in this case, i just don't know. >> now, were these calls from -- >> i have to get my phone records. >> -- cell phones or from your office phone? >> we don't even know that. >> good for her.

>> thank you, martha. >> good for her for pushing devin nunes. seriously, come on. i don't know if you guys know it or not, but i was there. and if you have somebody -- first of all, if i'm talking to a ukrainian, right, and he's in the middle of this drug deal. >> and his name's lev parnas. >> right. and the second he gets indicted i'm looking at the paper and i start sweating. >> i want to know what -- >> you don't go, oh, wait, did i talk to this guy or -- >> you don't know yet. >> i mean -- >> we haven't confirmed that yet. >> for devin nunes, though, to say i don't remember. >> he's the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, right? >> it's a lot of phone call. >> continuing denying knowing about his own phone conversations with rudy giuliani's business associate lev parnas. parnas's attorney tweeted lev remembers what you spoke about. you don't remember some u oh-oh

>> so lev's attorney -- i'm calling him lev. mr. parnas -- >> what's his business name? >> partner to igor. >> his attorney previously had said not only did devin nunes and my client lev parnas speak? april a number of times on the phone, let's just say they weren't talking about sushi joints to find in kiev. so for devin nunes to prevent he didn't remember, remember he said i don't remember that name, i don't remember the calls, we're looking into it. fact he was the ranking member sitting there as all this testimony was coming across his desk in front of the public pretending he didn't know anything but had been on the phone with some of the key players in this, it's outrageous that he was sitting there and more outrageous that he's pretending now he didn't know about it. >> here's a guy who also gets in from -- claims he has information he's going to take to the white house.

he goes to the white house, he gets information from the white house and he goes out and holds a press conference. again, it's just deceit year after year. >> all of that plus one of my theories -- >> but, wait, there's more. >> there's always a red sox connection to everything. >> oh, no. >> the last time, the only time i have seen lev parnas in person was in the dugout with rudy giuliani at the london red sox/yankees series. the two of them were there together. >> when was that? >> there are pictures of them sitting in the dugout. >> was bono there? >> no we had given him -- >> because bono usually makes it in most of your stories. >> i love that. >> all right. as you can see -- >> rudy giuliani in london. >> wow. got mike here. historian and author of soul of america. jon meacham. katty kay back. i'm so happy to have her back. and joining the conversation national affairs analysts for nbc news and msnbc, john heil

heilman john heilemann. sam stein is with us. >> so good to see him. >> and politics and journalism professor at morgan state university politics center at the root and msnbc political contributor jason johnson joins the conversation. >> i got -- >> great group today. >> katty, you know, polls for elections in britt tain are jus historically awful. is there a possibility we could wake up and -- and have a prime minister who runs around making anti-semitic comments more often? i mean, is there a possibility that labor actually could win this election? >> i mean, you're right to preface it with the polls have been bad in the past. they've got it all wrong over

brexit. they got it wrong in the election in 2017. they twharnt greweren't that gr so let's calm down about the polls. but they've suggested that boris johnsons that a comfortable lead. but just in the last week or two that jeremy corbyn has been gaining on him slightly. i think if i had to stake my children's future on some bet, i would suggest that it looks like boris johnson is going to win, in which case brexit becomes a pretty much foregone conclusion. but the most is next thursday and jeremy corbyn can carry on picking up support and just as we have here, we have an incredibly polarized country and people aren't budging a huge amount. so will lots of people suddenly swing over at the last minute some it's possible. but at the moment it looks like it's boris johnson with an election to lose. >> isn't this an election that labor could walk away with if they didn't have corbin,

basicall at the top of the ticket? >> one of the reasons they weren't keen to have an election at all, they were hesitant about calling a general election at the moment is because jeremy corbyn's own personal approval ratings is somewhere in the sub basement of the sub basement. they've been shocking will you low. boris johnson's approval ratings aren't great either but they shine compared to corbyn's. if they had a candidate who was declaring himself not to be a socialist and seen more in the mainstream of british politics, but then perhaps labor could have had this one in the bag. so there's certainly a lot of finger pointing there. but on the other hand there are people within the kind of left of the british political spectrum and there's a strong constituency of people who like jeremy corbyn to think as people look at elizabeth warren, as

people look at bernie sanders and there are parallels about this is not just election about donald trump, it's not just an election about brexit, it's an election on both sides of the atlantic. this is time for a real shake-up of the system, of the capitalist system as we know it? are we looking at a seismic shift away from a system that's produced vast amounts of inequality, for example? should capitalism be revisited? that's what jeremy corbyn represents. >> all right. speaking of really bad poll numbers. >> yeah, we could just look at what's going on here at home. the latest presidential approval numbers are out this morning and together they signal troubling signs for the president in multiple 2020 battleground states. the latest morning consult survey finds president trump under water in six key rust belt states. down double digits in iowa, wisconsin, michigan, and minnesota. and trailing in both ohio and pennsylvania as well. the new numbers out of several

sunbelt states also spell trouble for trump. he's under water in arizona, georgia, nevada, and new mexico, while in texas he clings to just a three-point advantage. and even if florida and north carolina both vital states for trump in his 2016 -- in 2016, is now falling there, falling within the margin of error in both states. >> so the rust belt is his key to victory. iowa minus 13, wisconsin minus 14, michigan minus 14, minnesota minus 14, but you also look two states that, boy, a republican never wants to be worried about, arizona in the southwest, georgia in the southeast. those were to getting more competitive every four years. but if you talk to people running the trump campaign be, they are just supremely confident about like iowa, for instance. they're not even thinking about

iowa. iowa's in the bag. pretty confident about michigan. we got michigan. michigan's going to break our way. and, you know, i would laugh except these are some of the same people who were telling me on election night, no, those polls are all wrong, those exit polls are wrong, we're going to win most of the swing states. so what -- how are you sorting through all of this? >> i think that the trump campaign is competent to the extent it's competent, i hink they project more competence than they have, but to the extent they're competent it's for a couple reasons. they're doing what incumbents do right now. we talked about it yesterday on the air, it's the thing that smart democrats are concerned about the they're looking at the amount of money the trump campaign is raising and the amount that it's spending right now. and one of the things that smart, like obama people learned in 12 was that having early month and being able to start spending it months and months before the other party had chosen a nominee in that period during the nomination fight where they're going around in

the obama case it was mostly television advertising. >> and still remember your may article in new york magazine where you said that they were disqualifying mitt romney in may as an unfeeling -- >> and earlier. >> unkind corporatist. >> part of what the trump people have learned is that lesson and they're doing it digitally rather than on the air. but they're spending so much month on facebook, they're very so he mi sophisticated. and smart democrats are worrying about that. and they look at the democratic field and they think it's a weak field. they don't see anyone who they think on a candidate basis is better than their guy. that's their view. what i think they're overlooking, and when they pay attention to it they don't overlook it, is just that unlike in 2016, they have a candidate who was -- they don't have a candidate anymore who is kind of an unknown quantity who just

represents bureau disruption in an age that people wanted and people are looking at hillary clinton and saw status quo. now we have three years of record and when you look at that approval rating, the thing you pointed to no those key states, the states that trump can't win without, where he's under water by double digits, it's because people in ohio, pennsylvania, michigan, illinois, wisconsin, all of those places have lookeda at what the policies have done. this is where the manufacturing renaissance has not happened. >> we're in a worldwide manufacturing recession. >> right. and the trade policies have hurt. you go to iowa, it's not -- i mean, it's true, the trump campaign won iowa easily in 2016. that's what they're thinking they can replicate. but you go to iowa and talk to agriculture where trump's trade war has killed the economy, it's not the same as it was in 2016. it's not like those farmers who did not like hillary clinton for a variety of reasons and who thought that trump was going to

blow everything up was going to help them, they now have a record to look at. in addition to the other stuff we talk about around this table every day. that's how i sort it and i think the biggest problem for trump is that he's not just the "x" factor anymore. we now know what it means to have donald trump be president. >> and those people in those swings states do too. >> trump people will tell you that they understand that everything they're doing, all the lists they're building, and, by the way, it is -- they are on the cutting edge in every way. somebody goes to their rallies, they tag them and they start sending -- i mean, it is a campaign operation that no democrat is going to be able to match really for -- unless it's bloomberg for some reason who's at 3% right now. but, they understand, though, as well. they say, listen, if -- this will help us if this is a two or three-point race. >> right. >> but if it goes in any other direction, it's going to be a

tie, they're willing to get swept away or we'll get swept into office. right now, just right now in these states it looks like the tide is actually breaking pretty hard against him. >> yeah, joe. it's breaking hard against him. and as i've mentioned last couple times when i was here, you remember me saying it's the polls after thanksgiving that matter. it's once everybody went home and had conversations with their family and talked to the graduating seniors and talked to uncles and talked to grandmas, that's where we start seeing how america feels. everybody went home for the midwest, everybody had turkey, everybody watched the cowboys and realized we don't really like this guy. and there's nothing that donald trump is going to be able to do about that in the next five or six months. if anything, his best chance is to just hope that the economy doesn't start to tank. but here's the other thing that i think is key. with that level disapproval, that's just hey, do you like president trump or not, that's not comparing him to a candidate. the only thing that the republicans can be happy about right now is they don't know who they're facing. >> exactly. >> if donald trump goes head to

head with a mayor pete he'll probably blow him out of the water. if donald trump goes head to head with the joe biden who challenged somebody to pushups, he's going to lose. that's what they're worried about right now. they don't know who they're going to be facing. >> see, he's on our side. >> yes. >> he's on our side on the pushup thing, jack. come on, jack! >> as a rhetorical device i can get behind it, but i don't want to see the old guys doing pushups. >> i do. >> what someone at one of these rallies is going to say let's go. >> exactly. >> and -- >> that's not going to be pretty. >> he can do a couple. >> a couple. >> so sam stein, as we look at these polls, let's go back to the 2016 election and remember it was something like 77,744 votes, something like that, across three states. wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania. wisconsin in this new poll president down 14. michigan down 14. pennsylvania down espn. you go across some other states too that will decide this election, nevada, arizona, florida obviously.

i guess the question is, the people who took a flyer on donald trump in 2016 for all the reasons that jon just laid out because he was disruptive and overturn the tables in washington, what do they do is now his hard core support is not going anywhere. the hillary clinton hard core supporters aren't going anywhere in terms of democratic support. what about those people in the middle among those 77,000 votes who took a flyer on donald trump? >> i mean there's the million dollars question, right, is do they come back to support trump? and it's not rocket science here, the trump campaign is going to try to do everything it can to tar whoever the democratic nominee is to depress his or her numbers and then hope that you can get, you know, squeak by another electoral college victory. that's the game plan here, the ball game, and they'll have the resources do it. so these numbers, while probably depressing for the trump operation right now are definitely not the end of the story, we have months and months of, you know, advertising that's going to happen here. and then it becomes a real

turnout operation. can democrats produce the sort of, you know, city turnout, the suburban voters that this want to flip, can they do that and will the trump campaign get the rural voters out like they did in 2016? i don't know. i think job approval's bad. i don't think it's determinative. think what we'll end up seeing is just a real slog. and, yeah, if it's joe biden we're going to have eight months of him and trump challenging each other to an iq test and pushup contest and it's going to be really depressing. >> well, i don't think they want any part of joe biden. i really, from what i've gathered, they were very excited when elizabeth warren was rising. they, you know, i used the pat buchanan our friend pat buchanan's political athlete assessment saying, you know, elizabeth warren's a great political athlete. and she has been throughout this

campaign. but, man, her numbers -- she really exposed her vulnerable idealogically when she talked about how she was going to pay for medicare for all. and we learned a lot very quickly about the democratic party that way and that is that the democratic party is actually not twitter. >> you know what's also interesting, joe, and you're right. and jason got to it in talking about what happens after thanksgiving. and you strip away all of the numbers that we throw out here and all of the issues that we talk about here. but a presidential election really is the last thing left that we do as a nation together. everyone votes together on the same day. and leading up to that vote is a national conversation that goes on. >> hold on, wait. do we want to tell mike that people actually start voting months ahead of time? >> the voting online.

>> the bulk. >> the bulk of people get up and vote on voting day. >> oh, wow. >> [ multiple conversations ]. >> i was going to throw something in to talk -- >> no, i'm going to meacham. [ laughter ] >> here's the deal. >> yes, here's the zbleel so we have this national conversation. and the issues are critical. farmers in iowa, steel workers in pennsylvania, it's all critical. but at the root of that conversation might be an element that it's tough to get your finger on. people talking about the fact that they have doubts that this guy, donald j. trump, simply can't do the job. and do we really want another four years of listening to him every day and hearing -- and talking about these tweets every day? >> it's a huge -- i looked this up recently. one element here is to what extent are self-identified

republicans willing to cross the aisle in the general? and so historically 9% of democrats cross the aisle to vote for bush instead of gore. 13% of republicans voted for obama instead of mccain. so you have about 10% who have proven in relatively modern history that they're willing do it. it's exit polling so it's probably true, why would you say maybe it's a little bit of obama. but basically it feels about right. and seems to me that that's where that conversation is. the other place this conversation is, is, is there a market correction? and when people when they look at their 401(k)s and their holdings in that part of the electorate, are they going to be willing to make this compromise that they've made for three years? which is basically, you know what? i don't like what he says, i don't like the way this feels, but i'm making money.

>> well, and the economy by a lot of indicators is just as strong as it's been. >> can i ask a question? i'm just curious people who report and then talk to living people. >> right. >> you report with the dead? >> i do. it's much easier to fact check. numbers like this, can people walk in and have a rational conversation with trump about this or is he -- >> no. no, no, no. >> it's saddam. >> -- it's saddam. about three or four months ago bad numbers came out from internal polling. they denied it, then they fired the polster. so you can't -- you can't have this conversation. now, listen, here's the thing. he knows it. in the back of his mind and he'll try to figure out how to move forward. he will not admit this publicly even to people clops se to him

unless he's changed a great deal. jon said something earlier, he said a word that i want to really grab hold to because i think it's an important word when it comes to donald trump, the uquick witbiquity of donald he's everywhere. i cannot tell you everywhere i go -- >> but it's not -- >> getting there. >> mcken nin, ion, i'm getting . you it talk to trump supporters and i know you to all the time. they say he's not nancy pelosi and he's not hillary clinton and he's not a host on msnbc, you know, so, yeah, i'm supporting him. but, god, he exhausts me. i even had one guy who golfs like from 6:00 to 9:00 every morning so he never watches the show. he goes, i love you, you're a faithful republican, and then he just started venting about

donald trump gag going, going, for the economy but he just exhausts me. and i'm never going to vote for bernie sanders or elizabeth warren, but if biden runs, i just may golf that day because he wears me out and it's not good for the country. i can't stand the democrats. i talked about evangelicals, i know there are a lot of faithful white evangelicals that are offended by what donald trump does. those people will never vote for a democrat. i think his biggest danger is the ubiquity warss hiears him o and the biggest thick ng is the just stay home. it's hillary clinton in reverse, a pretty big youunder vote woule the trump administration's biggest concern. >> that's in the direction that -- yes, number one. ubiquity has led to kmautiexhau

people are tired of the chaos and the tweets and they want it to get back to normal in some way. that's the problem for trump that he is that ubiquitous. people would say that about obama, here's here all i do listeni long, he's here and there. over the course of the last three years at every opportunity the american people have given a chance to vote by proxy on trump, local elections, state elections, off year elections, the mid-term elections. the american people have voting to tell donald trump to shut up and it's been a lots of -- skbland the suburban republican women who have taken the chance to say you look at 2018, you talk to democrats and republicans in pennsylvania. >> yes. >> and they'll look -- they'll go, listen, great. you guys look at the national races. these local races that

republicans always win, they're getting slaughtered in. >> overwhelmingly. so you've seen for three years the american electorate have been sending a message to trump, they're tired of the crazy making and it's suburban republicans, basically, crossing the aisle voting for democrats as a way to say to donald trump please shut up and let us get back to normal. and that leads to, i think, what the very beginning of the conversation was, what is what the trump campaign understands and your point about obama in 2012. the only answer for them is to profoundly disqualify whoever the democratic nominee is and so the reason, to your point, they were excited for a little while is they saw elizabeth warren becoming the nominee. and rightly or wrongly they thought we can disqualify her. we can disqualify bernie sander. they think they can disqualify pete buttigieg for a variety of reasons. but they look at biden and think he's a weak candidate, trump's better than he is. but it's harder to disqualify

joe biden than a lot of these other candidate. that's why they look at biden, not because they think he's a great candidate, but they don't see how this guy that so many people like, how you make that guy into satan. >> i totally agree. i think people take any hit on biden very personally. jason johnson, weigh in and also on the ubiquity of trump which is becoming more negative now, we ryeally saw in the presidential campaign that he won with make america great again as his slogan as very aspirational. he was ubiquitous with his reality show. people in america attributed him, rightly or wrongly, with the word success. but now he's wearing the hat in that last frame of video we showed, keep america great. and that flies in the face of seeing world leaders laughing at him, at seeing all the ugliness in washington and seeing him get impeached in realtime. if you read gene robinson's

article you watch this president impeach himself and you see his behavior and it matches something very different than the hat he's wearing now. do you think that will start to play out more as impeachment draws on? >> we've seen that, talking about joe biden, what's the new ad he came out with this week? they're all going to laugh at you. it's kerry. they're laughing at you. everybody's going to laugh at our president. they don't like the guy. the reason that president trump has feared joe biden the most, biden and at certain points harris, is because donald trump say branding genius, right? he is giving somebody a nickname. you can't change the joe biden brand if the is what it is. that's what makes him the most dangerous. but i think the critical thing to remember heading into 2020, yes, donald trump is ubiquitous. he's the president of the united states. but the people who aren't in the corridor, lowe do they look at these men? how do relook at a joe biden versus donald trump?

woody harrelson is goofy on "snl," but it's like, okay, i can deal with this guy. the problem that donald trump is we've been dealing with him for years and increasingly people are feeling like i don't know if i want to deal with another four to five years of this. i don't know if i want to deal with this behavior. i don't know if i want to deal with this level of anxiety. i don't know if i want to deal with children dying on the border. at the end of the day, the democrats have to recognize if permanent getting tired of this guy, as long as we get out our voters on a regular basis, we can win. we come into this with a 3 million vote lead from hillary clinton and that's the key for democrats. can they get out their vote in the critical states? >> something else we found out about joe biden so far in the 20 2020 cycle is that if i had anything for him it would be teflon joe. he's turned in three debate performances every bit as bad -- okay, five, every bit as bad as george w. bush's three debate performances in 2000. remember that famous "snl" line, no, no, george h.w. bush.

i can't believe i'm losing to this guy. >> exactly. but you can say the same with george w. bush. i remember we had a way i'll just sit hold our breath for two or three hours and go oh my god did we survive that or is not? it's the same thing now with joe biden. it's interesting, he's turned in some really bad debate performances. >> right. >> the people who get hurt are the people who attack joe biden. it's kind of like -- no, no, no, don't attack him. >> he's a good man. >> and jason's point, jon, was brilliant. they know biden. they've known biden. he's been around since 1974. >> serving. >> you can't change that brand. it is baked into the cake. you can't call him sleepy joe, they know him. >> right. >> i think let's make our conservative friends happy for the day. it's reagan is the analogy. >> yeah. >> because he says stuff that's just kinda wrong.

>> but he's -- >> it's in the head. >> you trust him. >> and people go, well, he didn't really mean it. there's a -- >> i about the way, people don't remember, reagan said some doozies in the 1980 skblan oh my g campaign. >> oh my god. going down the pacific coast highway. >> he mixed up carbon monoxide and carbondy oxide. >> he said trees were the biggest polluters. people were hanging signs on trees saying to stop me before i kill again. i want tell you about the joke he made between hispanics and czechs, i would be taken off the air for three weeks if i repeated it. but people were like it's a reagan rehe's reagan he didn't mean it. >> it's like reagan is the teflon president. we'll see whether bide sent teflon candidate.

>> have to know, jon, hear me out on this because you've been to more rallies through the than i have been. you go to a biden rally and there were to types of people there with the exception of jack at the rally in the in iowa. there are two types of people there, people who like joe biden and more importantly, people who want to like him. >> yeah. or -- >> it's just an enormous reserve the affection. and it turns out that it's both enormous and it's been way more resilient than anyone thought it would be. you thought the performance would hurt him. it turns out that either they like him already or they want to like him, at least in the democratic electorate. >> jason johnson, thank you very much. coming up, the mayor of new york city bill de blasio is here on set. but first, senator chris murphy joins the table. that's ahead on "morning joe." joins the table. that's ahead on "morning joe." ♪

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♪ 34 past of the hour. joining us now a member of the senate foreign relations committee, democrat chris murphy of connecticut. he's here with his new piece for the atlantic entitled "how to make a progressive foreign policy actually work ". >> what is a progressive foreign policy? >> well, a progressive foreign policy is one that admits the mistakes of the past, right, understands the limits of american power when you try to project force and influence around the world just through military might. but also understands that america can still play a role for good in the world. and we're going to have a lot of work to do after the trump administration is done to try tro assert american influence when it comes to projecting human rights and democracy promotion around the world. and my hope is that as i think joe biden is starting to realize, there is an opportunity in the 2020 election to go

straight at trump on the issue of national security. he has made the united states a laughing stock. he has walked us away from our historic role in promoting democracies and human rights around the globe. and thaultt ultimately makes th united states less safe. i'm hoping that democrats are going to run on national security. historically it's a big gap between democrats and republicans and this is an election in which we can close it well, telegraphing to the american public that we get in the way in which we've thrown our military might around the world hasn't worked and there's other ways to project force and influence. >> there are times we have to use military force, right? i mean, do you think donald trump made a mistake pulling troops out of syria? >> i do. i do in part because he had absolutely no plan for what came next. >> right. >> and so in that piece that i wrote for the atlantic, i lay out exactly when military force is appropriate. >> let me ask you about

afghanistan. >> sure. >> donald trump now wants to do a deal with the taliban and have our troops pull out of afghanistan just like we did in iraq in 2011. led to some really bad unintended consequences in iraq. might do the same in afghanistan. what is the progressive foreign policy look like in terms of afghanistan? do we just leave or does it look like south korea? >> i have supported the president's efforts to try get to a deal with the taliban, and there are lots of conservative republicans in congress who would like to see us stay there for the next 40 years. but think you need to use the tools that we have. we have leverage at this moment and the leverage is american forces. and the fact that is he disappearing our leverage, pulling our troops out at the very moment or he's trying to get the taliban to come to the table on a political deal is just basic foreign policy mismanagement. i think progressive foreign policy also involves a dose of realism. in afghanistan if you're a realist you have to use the troop presence today to try to get the taliban to macon

sessions make concessions. but i think we have proven without a doubt that they're not going to make that country a functioning western-style democracy and so we should stop having our bar for leaving afghanistan be the end to corruption. we should make sure that al qaeda doesn't find a way to get back as using that can't as a safe haven. and if we can get some basic guarantee on that, some assurance on that, i think that's when we get out. >> one of the president's talking points we'll through the campaign is i'm bringing the troops home. let syria manage for them self, let turkey get involved if they need to. there was a report yesterday that he was considering sending 14,000 troops to saudi arabia as a buffer perhaps to iran. he did need that on twitter. he said on foreign services do you know more about that? are we sending troops to saudi arabia? >> i mean, what's stunning to me having just come back from the region is how his own military commanders in theater don't know what the policy is, right?

we were supposedly moving out of syria but we aren't anymore. we now have 500 troops there once again trying to set up a coalitions with the sdf in country. and we have more troops in the middle east today than we did at the beginning of the trump presidency. maybe he's going to send a couple thousand more, but already we have more u.s. soldiers in theater than we did at the outset, we just moved them from one place to the other. and don't think that they're safe? saudi arabia. with the provocative behavior the president's has engaged in with iran could end up putting those troops in jeopardy as well. >> senator sam stein has a question for you. sam. >> senator, as we speak right now the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, is again overseas in europe meeting with ukrainian officials and other foreign officials oous ostensibly about joe biden and other election actions in 2016. is your committee keeping track of what's going on or at least trying to?

and, two, do you feel that congress has a role here to legislate and codify limits to what personal attorneys can do with respect to foreign policy and/or to make sure and clear that foreign governments should have no role interfering in the u.s. elections? >> what we know is the corruption didn't end when the impeachment process started, it's ongoing, the fact of the matter is these guys of shameless and giuliani's going to go back over and over and over again. i don't have any faith that the senate foreign relations committee is going to do anything about it. i went to the chairman of the committee back in april and asked for hearings into giuliani's early attempts to try to interfere and had no success. and i think it's probably difficult to set congressional limitations on the way in which a president uses outside advisers. and there's a long history of presidents being able to rely occasionally on people who don't officially work for the government to do business for the united states overseas. so i'd have to think a little bit more about that. we might end up tying the hands

of future presidents in a way that's not super constructive. >> and katty kay. katty. >> one of the points that donald trump gets in terms of favorability in people who are otherwise critical of him is his handling of china. the past presidents hasn't taken on china, at least this president has done so. if you were to urge a progressive democratic foreign poll swhi it came to china, what would it look like? would you urge ficontinuing the campaign of pressure as this president has done? >> you absolutely have to take on china's unfair trade practices, but you can't do it alone. donald trump is going to lose this trade war with china because china understands the leverage they have on him. as we get closer to the 2020 election it's going to be trump who has a short-term view that is celebrate to get a deal. china who always has a long term view is going to be able to sit back and so we'll ultimately get a deal that's good for china and bad for the united states. what we should be doing in these negotiations is involving our

partners, the progressive foreign policy a multilateral foreign policy and there are lots of willing potential partners in europe that would love to be tough on china with us. second, though, you have to understand what china's doing to export things like 5g all across the world. and if we don't start coming up with alternatives to these chinese technologies that are going to lap american and western technologies everywhere, then we can't compete with them. so that's about public investment in things like advanced battery technology and artificial intelligence so that we don't get caught with our pants down again like we have on high speed internet connections. >> how does a progressive foreign policy deal with supposed allies like pakistan, saudi arabia, turkey? >> so here's i think the most difficult question. i think we've got to push human rights and democracy, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. i think there are some countries that cross a line where there have to be consequences. saudi arabia could be on my

list. i think you have to telegraph that there is a point at which you have so abused the relationship in which you have so abused your own people that you can't be on the same terms as you used to be with the united states. and so i don't think a progressive foreign policy says if you're not a western style democracy and have a spotless human rights record you can't do business with us. but it does set up a line in the way this administration hasn't. if we had said to saudi arabia africa shogi's murder that are there's going to be a change in the relationship with the united states because of it, it would have been notice to other countries that they better get right or moving in the right direction or there would be consequences. it's not an all or nothing proposition, but you have to draw a line somewhere. >> quick final question, different topic. have you spoken to a single republican colleague in the senate who's even considering voting for impeachment? >> yes. >> you have? >> yes. >> okay. >> would you like to name him or her? >> no. >> how many? >> it's a small list on one hand. >> right. >> and by the way, i don't buy

this secret ballot thing. if there's wa a secret ballot there would still only be a handful that would vote to impeach this guy. >> you think at the maximum what we currently know, there's about five republicans who might vote to remove the president, at max? >> i think that's probably right. >> all right. okay, senator chris murphy, thank you. >> thanks, guys. coming up, former new york city mayor michael bloomberg hits back at claims that he only apologized for stop and frisk because he was running for president. the current mayor of new york city bill de blasio is standing by may have something to say about that. and as we go to break, yes, does. you guys ready for the holidays? officially we're getting ready for christmas. we want to mention a track from kbr your band, joe, is included on a great holiday collection. look at this. i love this song. it's called i don't want to go home for christmas and it's on the christmas songs playlist. you can listen right now on spotify. you're watching "morning joe." >> it's filter.

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i looked at our nation government getting worse, the way we're behaving overseas and domestically led by our president. i said back in 2016 he is the wrong person for the job. he doesn't have the temperment ethics and i watched and said we can't have another four years of this. and then i watched the candidates and i thought to myself, donald trump would eat them up. >> stop and frisk, you recently apologized for that. some people are skus spishs of the suspicious of the timing of your apology. >> the mark of an intelligent competent person is when they make a mistake, they have the guts to stand up and say i made a mistake, i'm sorry. >> we don't question your belief that you made a mistake. i guess the question is the timing of when you made the mistake. >> nobody asked me about it until i started running for

president, so come on. >> willie, you and i admit we make mistakes every three minutes. >> in realtime. >> it makes a lives -- >> that's about accurate. >> the one you just made now on commercial break, incredible. it was shocking. >> i made a mistake. i'm deeply saddened. >> michael bloomberg now a democratic candidate for preside president. joining us now, former president chalt ch presidential canned date and current mayor. and an msnbc contributor karine. >> great pieces on know your valuedom. >> moving forward, get it right now. >> mr. mayor, john heilemann never learned that you don't leave the best stuff in the break. he asked you a question that i overheard, which was do you miss running for by your response. >> yes, i miss it because it is an incredible experience

connecting with the american people and being able to talk about where we need to go and to talk about, for example, how this happens to be the party of working people, not the party of billionaires. i'm sure we will talk about that in terms of michael bloomberg. >> but you liked being out there. >> i loved being out there. >> it is nice to hear because you hear people saying, it is such a hard slog but you enjoyed being out there. >> it is amazing. on the ground in america are not only a lot of good people but a lot of good people trying to address the issues in our communities, working together across partisan lines. i see it out there and i'm very hopeful. >> so you running makes you more hopeful for american democracy? >> more hopeful. >> let me ask you this. i talked to you over the folk last week and i thought it was fascinating what you said, these debates you have ten people on the stage. >> yes. >> it is just impossible to break through. it protects the front-runners,

and you suggested, hey, you know what? maybe you give five people an hour, hour and a half. you give the other five people an hour, hour and a half. because you say until you get down to five candidates on the stage you won't have a real debate. >> it is not a real conversation. >> no joe, it is so fascinating. what happens in the process, even though i commend the dnc for attempting a more inclusive process, ten people on the stage actually was counter productive. i think it turned a lot of voters off. i think the dialogue never could take shape, and it was very hard to compare if you are going shopping in the supermarket or department store or online and compare against ten items, it is confusing. mostly you want to come down to a few. you put five people in a room you will have a real conversation. i think when i say i'm hopeful from my experience out around the country, it is about the people. but i will tell you the process i think was offputting to

people. >> yes. >> because i don't think they felt there was much they could latch on to in terms of what mattered for their lives. a lot of the debates veered away from the kitchen table, from the everyday reality of people's lives. we need to bring it back to that. >> i want to ask you the question about mayor bloomberg and his turn around on stop and frisk. do you think it was authentic and -- >> no. >> okay. >> let me make it simple for you. no. for years the stop-and-frisk crisis went on in new york for years and years, there were protests, appeals from clergy. >> court proceedings. >> court proceedings, a federal judge found it unconstitutional. michael bloomberg defended it one step of the way. we're talking 1.7 million people were stopped in one year and they were invaded. think about if you were walking down the street, you had done nothing wrong, you were stopped, patted down and treated like the suspect of a crime and who were the targets?

overwhelmingly young men of color. it was talked about for years. he said, no, no, we have to do it to stop crime. >> there were debates that it was proven effective in some ways, i have my opinions that i think align with yours. but as a candidate, when you look at his accomplishments across the board how damming in your estimate is that stop and frisk reversal given his 'em other contributions running new york? >> he does not fit at all. he gave away new york city to the landlords. he helped the rich get richer. he endorsed george w. bush for reelection in 2004, he was a republican in new york city. there are so many things here before you get to stop and frisk. i have spent six years fixing and undoing what michael bloomberg did. this is a guy when the great

recession hit and people were hurting in this city and people were losing their homes, he went to goldman sachs to give them a pep talk. he did not go into the communities of our city and talk to people about the way they're hurting. he opposed increasing the minimum wage. he opposed paid sick days. he is a billionaire who is not a real democrat. on stop and frisk we said you're actually creating a rift between police and community. i became mayor. crime has gone down six years in a row without stopping and frisk and it is allowing us to heal the relationship between police and the city. >> what do you make, karine? >> i think it is interesting we lost two and then we have two buying their way into the primary, and it is a bigger question of the democratic party, how they went about the

debate process. i want to commend you. i know in 2013 stop and frisk was one of the main issues and you were able to -- stop and frisk was gone. as you said, crime went down. with all of that said, i guess my question to you, you laid out why bloomberg doesn't work, he doesn't fit. are you going to endorse someone? who do you think fits in this democratic primary going into 2020, going against donald trump? >> i am definitely going to endorse at point. i believe that the progressive wing of the party is the dynamic element right now. i believe if we're going fob the party of working party, we're going to be a party that says the wealthy should be taxed at a much higher level, they should pay their fair share. we will be a party believing in things like raising minimum wage to $15 an hour in this country. it is clear to me what it looks like when we're a progressive party that focuses on everyday families, working people. certainly i give a lot of credit

to bernie sanders, ee lizza ber -- elizabeth warren, they keep hanging on because they're saying what fits. one more point on bloomberg, he willfully ignored the voices of african-american and latinos in the city and fearmongered. he said, no, we need these aggressive approaches or crime will go up. not only did it go down six years in a row, last year in new york city we had 150,000 fewer arrests than the last year of bloomberg and crime went down. not only should we be talking about stop and frisk, he believed in a heavy approach to -- a very aggressive approach to arrest and incarceration. this is a party that rejected mass incarceration. >> we are coming up to the top of the hour, but we have people that want to ask you questions. >> elizabeth warren has been obviously a star of the race.

her rise has been extraordinary. since she announced the details of her medicare for all plan and how much it would cost the american people that those with private insurance would lose it over time. her numbers have been down. do you think medicare for all is where the democratic party is now? >> yes. >> explain the faults. >> first of all, never assume any given moment is going to hold, that people are counting our elizabeth warren early on in the election and she surged for a month. still a lot of time on the clock. >> sure. >> i would say this party believes in universal health care. fair discussions about how you get there, when you get there, but the bigger thing we need to pull back cords is this is where we win and it should be of affordable. that's where wee went. i want to talk about nafta because it is something that democrats can get it right or wrong and it will define the

election. >> we have nafta up here, number one. we ask to ask you to come back to ask you about nafta. >> i accept that. >> let john heilman ask you his questions. >> there's heartbreak. >> he's so timid. >> people in my here are so powerful you don't want to mess with me. >> thank you, mr. mayor. >> thank you. >> if impeachment doesn't end donald trump's presidency, something else might. the russian talking point pushed by the president's defender that yu nalgdsed in the 2016 election. we will ask the senate spokesperson in a minute. nate spokesperson in a minute

sometimes people say i don't know that much about ukraine.

well, our adversary in this is russia. all roads lead to putin, understand that. >> what is it? >> okay. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday. finally friday, december 6th. along with joe, willie panld me we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle. historian and author of "the soul of america." >> oh, wow. >> and presidency of vanderbilt university -- >> wow, exciting to be here. >> nbc contributor. >> suwanee, very own. >> also with us pulitzer price winner ant associate editor of "washington post", eugene robinson and -- >> yes? >> wow. >> oh, my gosh. >> she's back. for bbc world news america, katty kay. where have you been? >> where haven't i been? i feel like i've been gone for ages and for no time at all because so many has happened and

yet so little is really change. >> you can put that on a coffee mug. >> she was all over the world, let's put it that way. we will talk about it. >> it is so great to have you back. >> thank you. just a quick simary, catie, politics in the united states is in disarray but politics in great britain is even worse. >> amazing. >> so we're still there. >> yeah. >> mika and i were talking about this, willie. you go through new morning consult, trump approval ratings. it really shows how unpopular he is. and in some of the states that they show how impeachment is really either keeping him from gaining momentum, but all of the money he's wasting and it is not moving anything. ohio, he's minus 5. pennsylvania, minus 7.

underwater. iowa, underwater, minus 13. minnesota, underwater, minus 13. wisconsin. >> uh-oh. >> minus 14. michigan, minus 14. >> some explaining to do. >> it explains his mood first of all but technically all of the clowns going around saying impeachment is backfiring and this is hurting, no, he can gave no momentum. he is getting absolutely slaughtered in the state polls. again, everything says don't look at the magsal polls, don't look at the manational spol. man, we are less than a year out from the general election, he is under water by double digits in iowa, in wisconsin and in michigan and doing really badly in other states. his approval rating, look at that, iowa.

42, approve. 55, disapprove. >> we all know the story of the 2016 election. 77,000, 78,000 votes across three states. those states now, michigan, minus 14. there's wisconsin, he's minus 14. pennsylvania. >> not good. >> and through ohio, as you mentioned, which has been sort of the office where republicans say. >> yes. >> he's down five points there. if you want to go down to the sun belt, texas, plus three. florida even, in georgia he is down three points. that's a snapshot where the president is 11 months away from the election. >> of course, look, this is why the states are important. you see them colored red. donald trump can't get elected without winning wisconsin, miss michigan, pennsylvania. you start looking at iowa, and there's another state if i'm the

trump campaign i'm nervous about, arizona. that one will be tough. so this year they're not only going to be fighting to win rust belt states republicans don't usually win, mike, they will be fighting in arizona and georgia just may be very close. >> you know, if you combine the results of the morning consult polls state by state we are just referring to that willie just pointed out. with the survey of 110,000 people in "the new york times" today about the issues that are moving people, both republican and democrat, i was surprised to see impeachment is the number one issue that moves people, that motivates people, both democrats and republicans, john. i don't know what it is like in tennessee, but i never would have guessed that you could approach an average person and say, you know, what issue is really tops on your priority list, and it is impeachment for a lot of people. one way or another, either impeach him or don't impeach him. republicans obviously don't

impeach him. >> it is an instancing question because i think people want washington to get back to work on things that matter more directly to them, but they do -- troubling is now paying the price for a cultural yu bubiqui that he has ridden to power. he has programmed it as a reality show and it has served him very well, but there's an existential issue and people want to get a verdict. >> katty kay, we talked about arizona. he is minus 4 even in arizona, and yesterday a horrible split scream for him. we were shown images not only in american but across the pond. nancy pelosi saying she has no choice to act and on the other side of the split screen the

after effect of world leaders staying in a circle mocking the president of the united states for his clown like behave owe seas. >> that image that really went around the world, boris johnson, emmanuel macron and justin trudeau standing together and seeming to laugh for president trump to me super up where america has got to over the past four months. people have not just giving up on this president and his ability to leave, they think it is a joke. they went from hoping america could turn around, they could find a way to deal with donald trump. emmanuel macron put all of that evidence into smiling and now you see them laughing at him in london. that's the idea the president hates, you know, he has said

america won't be laughed at. he was laughed at in london. it is a real sign where america's reputation has fallen in the past few months. impeachment weighs into it. people are conscious of it in europe. >> and the fact he rushed out of nato. he wanted a grand exit after the ceremonies for the 70th anniversary, but after the circle of boris johnson who said don't stay tomorrow, don stand so, stand close to me. because you're going to in the immortal words of a british philosophy, stain. because it is going to hurt him in the upcoming election. again, in politics donald trump has gone from being feared. in politics there's nothing wrong with being feared. actually, the worst thing in politics people feeling sorry

for you. the next -- the second to worse thing is people laughing at you. what used to be fear has now turned into farce and donald trump is now the butt of every joke because they understand there is -- i mean, if you are iran you can bomb saudi arabia facilities. now he's going do nothing about it. he threatens, he tweets. even of the impeachment scandal, he didn't want the press conference. he had the press conference. he is a shallow, joke to the world leaders and they've caught on. >> and he has proven to be untrustworthy around the world that they feel comfortable mocking him, which is the point that the country in the world may have been lost under this president. let's go to house speaker nancy

pelosi. it was her day yesterday. gave the green light to committee chairs to draft articles of impeachment against president trump. here is her announcement early yesterday morning and also speaking at a town hall last night. >> the facts are uncontested. the president abused his power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of our national security by withholding military aid and a crucial white house meeting for exchange of the announcement of an investigation into his political rival. our democracy is what is at stake. the president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit. let me just say this. this isn't we are saying that ukraine. the ukraine was the vehicle of the president's action, asking a president of another country to make an announcement that he was

investigating the president's political opponent and withholding military assistance that was voted by the congress of the united states unless and until he did so, the president did so. it isn't about ukraine. this is about russia. who benefitted by our withholding -- withholding that military assistance? russia. it is about russia. sometimes people say, well, i don't know about ukraine, i don't know that much about ukraine. well, our adversary in this is russia. all roads lead to putin, understand that. >> this is the first president that has committed all of these things as the constitution al constitutional experts said yesterday. not even richard nixon came close to diss honoring his own oath of office. they impeached bill clinton for personal indiscretion and

misrepresenting about it. impeached him. some of these same people are saying, oh, this doesn't rise to impeachment. they're wright there impeachiri bill clinton for being stupid, in terms of something like that. >> clarifying until the democrats stop saying that. he committed perjury in a sexual harassment suit about sexual harassment. so, anyway, we put that to the side. it was stupid. no, it was significant. the supreme court -- >> she was making a point though. >> i know. >> these are far more serious -- >> it is, but democrats have far better arguments to make and they need to stop saying this. the united states supreme court disbarred bill clinton. a lot of lawyers that if you -- if you look into their closets would be disbarred for that. i'm sorry to go off on this, but democrats again weaken their arguments when they do this, all right. the arkansas supreme court also

disbarred bill clinton. that's a side note. still ahead, joe biden clashes with a voter in iowa. we will talk about what set off the former vice president next on "morning joe." as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. at liberty butchemel... cut. liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. cut. liberty m... am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water? liberty biberty... cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ woman: friction points, those obstacles that limit a company's growth. i try to find companies that turn these challenges into opportunities. but by going out in the field, and meeting management, suppliers, competitors.

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♪ ♪ what the world needs now is love ♪ here an exchange between joe biden and a voter who questioned his son's overseas business dealings during a campaign stop in iowa. >> i've got two problems with you. one is you're near as old as i am. you're too old. we all know trump has been messing around in ukraine. you, on the other hand, sent

your son over there to get a job and work for a gas company that he had no experience with gas or nothing, in order to get access for the president. so you're selling access to the president just like he was. so you -- >> that's a -- lie, man. that's not true and no one has ever said that. >> i heard it on the tv. >> you've seen it on tv. i know you do. by the way, that's -- haven't argued -- >> let them go. let them go. >> the reason i'm running is because i've been at at a long time. i know and i can get things done. that's why i'm running. let's do pushups together, man. let's do whatever you want to do. number two, no one has said my son has done anything wrong and i did not on any occasion and no one has ever said it.

>> i didn't say you were doing anything wrong. >> you said i set up my son to work at an oil company. isn't that what you said? get your words straight, jack. >> come on, jack! >> jack. >> listen, we have a little disagreement here at the table. >> no. >> i think it is good for joe. right? am i wrong? yes, no? >> i'm going to defend my son is good. i think he needs a better answer about what happened. i know you are hearing that stuff on tv. that's the real fake news. here is what happened once and for all. i think he should have a clear, substantive answer to go with some of the emotion defending his son. >> but, mike, that retort had everything. he did jack, he did the pushup challenge. >> no. >> more importantly, he was off the cuff and he wasn't sort of stumbling around. again, you know, he's defending his son and i think most people -- if joe biden spends the rest of the campaign defending barack obama and his family, he's okay. >> no, no, but if he spends the

rest of the campaign being put on the defense about his son and burisma, he's got to take this out. >> yes. >> donald trump is not going to let him off the hook. in your mind, if you're going to vote for joe biden you want a guy who is going to walk across the stage like that to donald trump. >> exactly. >> yeah, but you don't yell at a voter. i love joe biden, i think he's going to be a great president. i think he's going to win, but i didn't like it. i felt like he should have gone after the attack on his age and say, i'm stronger, i'm better. >> he did, he did the pushup challenge. >> and you need to have the information right on my son. by the way, watching that on tv last night my daughter's little dog cowered into the corner and went into her little dog cage, she didn't like it. she felt uncomfortable. it was awkward. >> we don't like -- >> dogs do that. >> dogs know. >> this was frustration boiling over. when i sat down with vice

president biden in storm lake, iowa, this week, the number one surprise for me was how mad he is at the press. >> yes. >> furious, spitting. we saw it a little bit in that clip. there's some more in -- actually, an hbo interview special on sunday at 6:30, he is -- knows these questions are not going to go away. he knows he doesn't have a perfect answer. his frustration is there are a lot of what has been said about him in the ukraine is bogus, but some of it is very valid and there's not been a correct answer to what hunter did, why he was chosen. like it is not something there's a good answer for. >> the correct answer is, i don't like what hunter did. he is a grown man, he made his own decisions and it wasn't against the law, and it is being -- he is being defamed by trump folks as being a criminal and doing something inappropriate and criminal. it was not criminal. i personally wouldn't have done it. he is a grown man, i'm the one

running for president. it is not hard to say. hunter biden is a grown man, and you can't really paint this as a joe biden issue. coming up, the top democrat on the senate intel committee, virginia's mark warner is our guest. he joins the table next on "morning joe." ♪ can you heal dry skin in a day? aveeno® with prebiotic triple oat complex balances skin's microbiome. so skin looks like this and you feel like this. aveeno® skin relief. get skin healthy™

the ones that make a truebeen difference in people's lives. and mike's won them, which is important right this minute, because if he could beat america's biggest gun lobby, helping pass background check laws and defeat nra backed politicians across this country, beat big coal, helping shut down hundreds of polluting plants and beat big tobacco, helping pass laws to save the next generation from addiction. all against big odds you can beat him. i'm mike bloomberg and i approve this message.

♪ the speak of the house is nancy pelosi ♪ ♪ as pants suited as they come ♪ if you violate the constitution ♪ ♪ she's not a grandma you want to cross ♪ ♪ so donald trump ♪ he better just call ♪ you don't quid pro quo on her watch ♪ o on her watch ♪ ♪ oh, my gosh. that's my new christmas song, after yours, of course. "i don't want to go home for christmas" on spotify. welcome back to "morning joe." republicans in congress continue to propagate a russian

conspiracy that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election even though it was debunked by intelligence agencies that found russians acted alone. the republican-controlled senate intelligence committee, according to our next guest a final expanded, comprehensive and classified volume detailing the committee's conclusions has been submitted for a declassification review. an unclassified version is expected to be released to the public in coming weeks. joining us now, democratic senator of virginia, mark warner. great to have you on the set. >> thank you for having me on. >> how is it going? >> you can't make some of this stuff up. >> no, you can't. >> what do you think when you see other republican senators going on talking shows talking about ukraine interfering in the 2016 election? >> i think where have they been the last couple of years.

i mean there's been 100% consistency. everybody in the intelligence community, russia intervened, tried to break into our elections. weaponized information. misused social media that was further confirmed by, again, unanimous bipartisan results of our committee, reconfirmed by the special prosecutor mueller investigation, and literally every one of trump's law enforcement and intelligence appointees also pointed this out, to the point that the former director of national intelligence, dan coates, said it was perhaps our single biggest threat, russia's ongoing efforts to intervene. matter of fact, and professor hill pointed this out in her testimony a couple of weeks back, that russian gru agents in a sense were sent to kyiv to start spinning this false story. >> and that's what i want to get

to as well. you have senator kennedy going on sunday shows parroting putin's lines, and there were reports that actually senators were warned a few months back about the russian propaganda point they've pushed for several years. >> i will not talk about my colleagues' specific talking points. i will be absolutely explicit. there was no ukrainian intervention. anything like what russia -- >> if one of your colleagues, republican or democrat, if one of your colleagues goes out and starts talking about how the ukrainians interfered in the 2016 election, are they or are they not according to intel sources pushing russian propaganda? >> yjoe, i'm not going to go ino what may have been laid out in

classified briefings. i'm going to say everyone including all of the trump appointees acknowledge russia intervened and anybody out there trying to spin this debunked theory in many ways is actually playing out the line that vladimir putin wants to be put out across the world. >> are you convinced, senator, based on what you know and based on the public testimony we've seen over the past couple of weeks that president trump has committed an impeachable offense? >> as the house moves forward, i'm going to reserve all of my final judgment until i hear the facts. i mean my hope would be -- >> you have heard a lot of facts. >> listen, i heard a lot of facts. i obviously followed this, have been intimately involved in it the last couple of years with our investigation, but i can't -- i'm not going to criticize my colleagues if they've already jumped to conclusions before we hear the presentation of the case. >> you haven't seen enough for impeachment yet? >> listen, i'm going to reserve

my final judgment until the senate, if we are put in the place of being jurors, it is the only responsible thing to do. i would hope we all again would take a deep breath, realize that this is perhaps one of the most important things any of us would do as we're sworn in. matter of fact, we saw some of the testimony recently or the video of the whole process of what we went through in 1999. if every u.s. senator doesn't take a moment if we go into that proceeding and realize we have a constitutional obligation to listen, reflect and then reach independent conclusions based on the evidence, then we're not doing our job. >> by the way, it is very important for people that are listening, wait, why hasn't he jumped to conclusions yet. >> no, i get it. >> he is a juror. >> yes. >> that is what is so maddening when republicans say lindsey graham who runs, you know, the judiciary committee, i'm not going to listen to anything, i have already made up my mind. i mean what would he do as a

lawyer if a juror had already -- >> jumped to -- >> -- decided what the verdict was before the first bit of evidence came before the senate? >> no, that's a really good point. you are a juror, you are the vice chair of the intelligence committee and all of those things are key in trying to, you know, make sure that you are above board and know where you are going to be once it comes to your side as a trial. i have a question to ask you about rudy giuliani. he is right now in ukraine and he seems to be trying to get more information on how to get -- how to get ukraine to interfere in our elections. what should americans feel about that? what should we be thinking about all of that? >> nobody is ever going to accuse rudy of not having a lot of hutzpaw. the idea he has not stepped back and is still trying to pursue what has been confirmed as a

debunk theory, one that, frankly, again, who wins you out of all of this? who wins out of a ukraine that is not reform-minded? who wins out of a ukraine that is not closer to the united states? who wins out of a ukraine that has its ties with the west weakened? who wins is russia and putin. >> let me ask you this question to cast forward. we talked to a lot of senators including one of your colleagues who was here earlier this morning. basically you look at the way the house is behaving. i know you are not going to opine on this question but people basically accept the notion republicans are not moved by what they've seen in the house in your body. it is likely to be impeached in the house and acquitted in the senate. it is not just the book makers' view but the view of senators who are talking to you privately. that's where we're going to end up. donald trump the day after robert mueller testified, the day after picked up the phone

and called zelensky on the phone and tried to engage in another act of foreign interference. i ask you, should we not all be concerned about donald trump did that after robert mueller testified, the day after, that the day after the united states senate likely acquits him in this impeachment proceeding, what is donald trump going to take as the message from that and what is it going to encourage him to do. his lawyer is in ukraine right now. should we not all be incredibly concerned about donald trump's ongoing efforts as we head into 2020, that he will be encouraged and kboldemboldened to do it ag? >> we all ought to be concerned when a foreign government tries to interfere in our election process. let's take a breath e when the senators are sworn in individually, and i think based upon at least those guys and gals there in the late '90s, there was a level of seriousness

that only takes place when you are in that body hearing this seventy, hearing the presentation of the case. my sense is, you know, this may be the moment when the senate rises to the occasion, at least that's what i hope. >> so we have reports. reports of a shooting at naval air station in pensacola, in the panhandle. they are saying people should seek shelter at nas pensacola, the cradle of naval aviation. we will be following those reports as we get more information. let's go to katie kay in washington who has a question for the senator. >> senator, i was wondering if you could talk us through the threat as you might see it of these reports of, you know, phone calls between rudy giuliani and the president on his private cellphone, who might have had access to that?

would the russians have been able to get hold of them? would they have been able to listen to them and what might they specifically use that kind of information for, leverage for if they had it? >> again, these are developing stories. the one thing that is absolutely reinforced to every senator as recently as yesterday again was if you are traveling, whether it be in russia, ukraine, china, other nations, authoritarian regimes where, frankly, the russian intel services are going to get access to your devices, you shouldn't take your old phone. you shouldn't take your computer. i think we should just -- we need to treat this with a level of seriousness that it deserves and, frankly, russia's goal is to try to spread disinformation as well as trying to pit american against american. no individual at any level of officialness should be playing

into their hands. >> let me ask you, it's been i guess two years now since the gop tax cuts bill, $1.5 trillion tax cut and it went to who? >> it went to folks like most of us at this table. it didn't go to a whole lot of individuals that needed that help. and what is so disappointing as somebody who fed -- >> by the way carinne is looking around going, it didn't go to me. >> that presumption everybody on tv -- >> we were wondering what you were talking about. >> where's my check. >> it may still come before christmas. what disappointed me as a guy that realized, you know, we needed a tax structure that would make america more competitive. we needed a more streamlined structure. we needed to be able to repatriate dollars caught offshore, bring it back. the fact that has not resulted

in reenvironmeinvestment in ame the numbers spent on stock buy backs and stock repurchases, i think the latest thing i saw about 90% of those tax cuts ended up not getting reinvested but, frankly, went back to shareholders. it was not what corporate america promised and, frankly, if the democrats come in we do need to do a tax overhaul but it ought to be done on a fairer basis. >> that's what was predicted, too. we predicted on the show that the majority of the tax cuts would go back -- that carinne would get $350 million in tax cuts and do stock buy backs of carinne inc.. we predicted that's what was going to happen and that's what happened. the job numbers came out this month. another 50-year low, unemployment down to 3.5%. so the president and his supporters will say, hey, tax rates are lower in america and

jobs are lower and we're in great shape. >> i think it is great where the job numbers are, but if you look at what the job numbers translate into what workers are taking home in pay, when you look at the level of inequality taking place and candidly even the business round table, some of the largest institutions in our country, realize that this kind of chasing next quarter profits over everything else means we need a fresh look at capitalism in a way that the system can actually work for more people. >> wouldn't you say the economy is strong right now? >> i would say the economy is strong right now when you give it a $2 trillion unpaid for tax cut at the end of a business cycle that now has driven us to $24 trillion in total debt. who is going to pay that back? >> listen, you are preaching to the choir there. i have been talking about that for 25 years. but on the campaign trail, if

somebody asks you, can you name a time since you have been in public service where the economy has been stronger than it is now, what is your answer? >> my answer would be going back to the late '90s we had a strong economy. we were not actually adding to our overall debt. we weren't leaving our kids with a balance sheet that doesn't allow america to make the kind of substantial investments, particularly in next generation technology where china is making those investments, whether it is 5g. >> right. >> ai, quantum computing. that's going to come back and bite us and, frankly, if we don't have an economic theory of the case that's authority leaning, and, frankly, i don't think any political party has a 20th secentury of the case out there. >> yes. >> when we get the tool box -- >> you tremendous laremember th don't you?

>> yes. >> how is the budget? >> balanced the budget four years in a row. >> he doesn't like to talk it about. >> i don't like to talk about those years, but i will say that. we have run out of monetary tools. we have run out of fiscal tools. i mean we are -- the next recession that comes, boy -- >> yes, you have a sugar high right now. what happens when we have normal rules of economics? you get the downturn, we don't have a lot of tools left in the tool kit. >> you know how we were talking about everyone listening to our conversations especially if you don't listen to a secure phone, don chu has been listening again. he is here for business before the bill. might want to chime in. >> dom, not as many numbers added as far as jobs, but the rate of 3.5% is the big headline. >> that's the headline. it is an interesting conversation because of the way it is being framed with regard to the jobs picture.

what we have is a jobs report that is by economist measures better than expected, guys. as you are seeing on the cut of headline banners below me right now, 266,000 jobs is what america created in november. 187,000 is what economists were expecting so a better than expected report there. the unemployment rate it issitin to 3.5%. are americans making more money in this better job market? yes, they are. marge neal it is up .2% up november to november but 3% better than last year so, yes, modest gains in wages. i should point out september and october novembers were revised higher by a total of 41,000 jobs. if you are looking for the places we are adding jobs as an economy in the united states, it is in manufacturing -- 54,000 jobs created there. also with regard to motor vehicles and auto parts. now, this does reflect the fact

that the general motor resolved itself. health care and leisure posting job games. the other two points i will leave you with, guys. the reason we are seeing a slight tick lower in unemployment rate is because the labor force participation rate ticked lower as well. so a slight number of people have come out of the workplace. not as many people are working. >> what did it go to? >> 63.2%. that's now the labor force participation rate which brings the u6 measure, the broader measure of unemployment or underemployment in america to 6.9% from 7% before. those are the big headlines. a better than expected jobs report but it signals the fact there could be a little bit of a slowdown as this kind economy seeks to itself out of a run. >> 266, that's a strong, big number. >> wouldn't it be great, joe, if combined with the numbers we had

a tax code now that incentivized companies to invest in human capital? 40 years ago we created an r & d tax credit. it drove literally trillions of dollars of investment. wouldn't it be great if in the tax reform we did a couple of years ago we said investment in human beings get the same credit as the research and development? the jobs that could be disrupted because of ai, we have a text credit that says if you spend money on a robot, you get an asset, you invest in it. you spend the same money on a human being, you don't get the same treatment. let's make investment in human beings as valuable as investment in stuff. >> the banner on the screen right now is the case the president will make between now

and november. >> guess what? it is a strong case. if i'm a politician i like to run around with that, even though the tax cut only helped people like carinne. i loved it a lot when he said everybody. >> i noticed none of the rest of you guys said, hey, not me. >> it was going well. >> the two of us -- >> we're going actually they sort of closed the loopholes on us. >> it is worse. >> yes, it is worse. >> i'm not complaining at all. i am saying though the only people i actually heard were really happy with this were really, really super rich people and corporations who i literally had some people running corporations go, well, hey, we just got a 367 windfall. >> a 0% tax rates helps with the bottom line, doesn't it? >> i'm a huge fan of amazon, but nobody at this table paid --

everybody at this table paid more taxes than amazon. >> yes. >> and jeff bezos, absolutely. >> you can go down the list. vice-chairman of the -- >> by the way, donald -- jeff bezos thanks you, donald. >> he was really happy about that. helped out a friend. >> you guys -- >> good to see you. thank you very much. up next, oscar-winning screenwriter aaron sore kkin is with us. we will talk a little politics and his warning to facebook. keep it right here on "morning joe." here on "morning joe. ♪ there are things we would change about work. and there are things we wouldn't. ♪ when work is worth it. work is worth it. work can be closer to home...

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for sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. and we won't stop. join us in fighting for what's right. ♪ all right. breaking news. we continue to monitor reports that law enforcement authorities have responded to an active shooter at a naval air station in pensacola, florida. that's all we know at this point. we are monitoring this breaking news story. we have been told that the gates of the facility have been secured. people have been told to shelter. again, responding to reports of a shooting incident at a naval air station in pensacola, florida. we will keep you posted on this. . grew up on and around that base

with friends, went to school with friends there, prayers for everyone. >> joining us now is aaron sorkin. his adaptation of "to kill a mockingbird" is now on broad way. it is the highest grossing american play in history. >> yeah, our producer, when he called me anddu he said i have something exciting s to talk to you about, after trying for a few years i got the stage rights for "to kill a mockingbird." and i thought it was a suicide mission. a this is how he would finally kill me. and what i thought -- i said yes right away because i really wanted to do i a play, back in rehearsal room, and i thought i would swaddle the book, and transfer it to a stage and get

out of the way of this very beloved novel, but i ended up deciding ied could not pretend was writing the play in 1960, i could not be a harper lee impersonation, i had to just be myself and do it that way. >> it is probably one of the two or three most important books of the 20th century. it is remarkable. and of course the movie. if that is not one of the most iconic figures, is it atticus finch. >>s yeah, jeff daniels originad the part on prod way. ed harris is on there now. and both jeff and ed have simply ignored the shadow of greg ory peck and reinvested the roll

himself. >> it is different, if you saw it in the first year, with jeff, i'm not trying to sell you a ticket, you will find it interesting, that it is a different take on it. it is very excited. >> john hileman. >> i'm curious about what you think about we could talk about, i love the play and i have seen it, and i will go back to see ed in it, but i do want to take us into the current year. you said you did a modern version. what were the things that you tried to -- i think for most -- part of the reason that the play has been resonating for people is it strikes cords that are

maningful in this era. i want to talk about how conscious you were to make this play be of this moment. >> again, i started out thinking this wouldte be a nice exercisen nostalgia. and i will just make it a theatrical experience. but it was, it became in i'm possib -- impossible to do that. but the belief that there is goodness in everyone. of all people, he defends rac m racism, you have to understand, she just gotde off of her medication, she did defends bb l yule. he just lost his job, he is

reprimanding his kids when they stand up to someone who for instance uses the n-word. and he reprimands them for being rude to an adult. and i thought, you know, i wish we had at least talked about this in 8th grade. there is goodness that can be found in everyone suddenly sounded a lot like there was fine people on both sides, and suddenly i had an idea instead of it being a coming of age story about scout, he is coming from a good place. why don't we put him through something where he finally comes to understand that his -- his friends and neighbors are not who he thought they were. and we in this country have been going through the same thing for the last few years. the discovery that we didn't

really know our own neighbors. >> you can walk a mile in someone's shoes. >> i just want to update our viewers onte the situation in pensacola florida where there was reports of a shooting at the navel base there and the sheriff's office is now reporting that the shooter is confirmed dead. so it is no longer an active shooting situation, we're going to find out exactly what happened there, get complete information as soon as we can, but theoo situation is under control, nosi longer an active shooter because the shooter is now confirmed dead. >> so thinking about this. one of the great novels of our time, and, but now, we find ourselves in a position where we are wondering how half of america can turn a blind eye to

some of the injustices that we're seeing every day, and suddenly it is like -- there is a great book coming out by miami-dade g baldwin. we all slipped into this belif e that the greatin civil rights struggle happened in 1975 with martin luther king and ended with barack obama. and what a rude awakening. >> we thought we were in post racial america,er and we found t very quickly that was not the case. and youno saw that throughout h presidency. in the obstruction, in how the obama's -- obamas were treated in the white house. and we swung from obama to trump, and it is the bigotry and

racism that help ed get him elected. i love how you duh that. how you took the play and brought it into modern times, and i think that is really important for people to go see and do that. a question -- no, go ahead. >> i was just going to say i mentioned the character of bob yule. she he is a klansman and he really framesre a young african-americ character for rapeing his daughter. in every line of dialogue of bob yule's is something from a breitbart commenter. that i nut the comment section. this is not section. it is not about that, it is not about that. the reaction to barack obama,

absolutely it is what got trump elected. it was this feeling that people like me who voted for an affirmative action choice president -- >> people losing their identity. >> loyes, and also feeling like- and the play talks about this, a massive inferiority complex in this country among tens of millions of people who believe their being looked down on by the coastal elite. and itas is that feeling of ang, that is the single biggest thing driving what they're doing to the extent of watching american republicans gaslight everyone and pretend that anyone that can look at the ukraine situation and decide there is at least something worth investigating has sinister motives.

>> aaron sorkin, we want to thank you for being with us, and weth want to point out your letr that you wrote to facebook, not defending free speech, but assaulting the truth. t that is very powerful, take a look at it. that does it for us this morning, stephanie ruhle picking up theuh coverage right now. there hasag been a shooting at s naval air station in pensacola florida. the shooter is dead, but five people have d been transported a local hospital. jim cavanagh was a former hostage negotiator and he is joying me now. what happen is your initial reaction. >>it just, you know, brought me right back to pearl