initiative talking about the urgency that democrats and himself included need to deal with the climate change crisis. he's seeing his first ad of the campaign cycle that's all about climate change and in it he talks about how he thinks president trump say climate denier. that's what we can expect from michael bloomberg this week. >> thank you we'll be reading axios a.m. in a little while. you can read the knees lur at signup.axios.com. >> "morning joe," everybody, starts right now. did you believe ukraine meddled in the american election in 2016? >> i do and i think there's considerable evidence of that. >> you do. >> because russia interfered, the media contends nobody else did. ukraine blatantly interfered in our election. >> this is per perpetrate by the russian security services themselves. right now russia security services have geared up to

repeat their interference in the 2020 election. we're running out of time to stop them. and the coin the course of this would ask that you not did he note false narratives. >> ted cruz would learn something from fiona hill, obviously. >> good morning -- >> no. >> he can't? >> he can't. >> he refuses. >> the thing is all 17 u.s. intel agencies have told senators like ted cruz that that's a lie. they've all said that russia has interfered and that ukraine hasn't. and, in fact, ted cruz and other senators were warned not to repeat this russia propaganda. don't repeat the propaganda from an ex-kgb agent, and that's exactly what he did. >> it's not that he can't, it's that he won't. >> he is willfully choosing. >> that's correct. >> he's willfulry choosily choo

ignore our intel leaders. he's willfully dhoochoosing to ignore the heads of homeland security, and he's willfully ignoring the warnings from america's own intelligence professionals that donald trump appointed by the way, who say this is russian propaganda, please do not push it. and ted cruz from texas has decided he would rather be putin's pup fet thatpet if thate needs to be to support donald trump right now. it's a strange legacy to attach to yourself, but he has done it. >> with us we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire. donny deutsch is here as well. republican strategist and msnbc political analyst susan del percio and host of politics nation and pris of tesident of

national action network reverend al sharpton. we have a big day ahead of us. >> we do. we can talk about impeachment. >> we have to there's so much going on. >> we're going to find out this week what the ig has said. it's going to blow apart donald trump suggesting that barack obama was crawling around in his office space at trump tower and tapping phones. ig's going to blow apart so many theories. we can talk about that. we can talk about the fact that north korea now is openly insulting donald trump as a dumb old man or whatever words they use. we can talk about -- there's so much. but i think donald trump this weekend spoke for us all. >> yeah. >> i really do. and i have no problem admitting this. i think he spoke for us all when he talked about the single issue that is most pressing to our great republic at this time. take a look.

>> we have a situation where we're looking very strongly at sinks and showers and other elements of bathrooms where you turn the faucet on in areas where there's tremendous amounts of water, where the water rushes out to sea because you could never handle it, and you don't get any water. you turn on the faucet and you don't get any water. they take a shower and water comes dripping out. it's dripping out. very quietly dripping out. people are flushing toilets ten times, 15 times as opposed to once. then up using more water. so epa is looking into that very strongly at my suggestion. you go into a new building or house or home and you don't get water. you can't wash your hands practically there's so little water comes out of the faucet. the end result is you leave the faucet on and it takes you much longer to wash your hands you

end up using the same amount of water. we're looking at opening up the standard and there may be some areas where we'll go the other route, desert areas, but for the most part, you have many states where they have so much water that it comes down, it's called rain, that they don't know what do with it. so we're going to be opening up that, i believe. >> the czar of toilets soon to be appointed. but, you know, jonathan lemire, i always thought it was so romantic and we like to idealize our presidents. kennedy had a reading and i thought it set mood for cam mf m kamala. here, the president says the water comes dripping out. it's dripping out very quietly.

dripping out. lemire, what say you? >> joe, i try to think of myself as i ask questions for a living, i never thought to ask the president how many times it takes him to flush the toilet, ten, 15 times. >> it takes him 15 times, jonathan. >> yeah. he seems to have -- >> that's a lot of flushing. >> he seems to have identified the central issue of our age as we move forward with impeachment and ig reports, foreign policy crisis. but apparently it's the low-flush toilets that are first among chief in his mind. we're not sure where it came from. we asked the white house if they're having issues with the pluming in the buildin plumbing. perhaps the president is harkening back to his time as a developer and maybe at trump tower they have high-flush powerful toilets. but we'll keep asking, joe. we'll pursue this, don't you worry. >> was he serious? >> he had the type of toilets, i

guess, where you could flush it, mutt put a cinder block in it and it would break it up. i think when he's talking about flushing ten or 15 times, this is one example of everything the president saying either a projection or a confession. >> oh my god. >> yeah, i'm going to pause here because there's so many ways go with this. first of all he's probably talking about doral or mara lag go. >> bedbugs. >> a lot of bedbugs. >> they're not even bedbugs, they're like big. >> no, bedbugs irr s, i saw thas back after went to doral, and bedbugs just all over the place. >> that's coo-coo for cocoa puffs. if you were going to get someone in that drift and where he's

going, that's not a right mind. if you took that in a vacuum and looked that the, if that was uncle joe, i don't mean biden, for that was uncle louie, you call the internist and say should we get him checked because that's a mind that's not right. >> it's called rain. rchlts let let's move on. in just a few hours at 9:00 a.m. democratic investigators will present the evidence they've uncovered to the house judiciary committee. and republicans will have another chance to refute it. chairman jerry nadler says he expects the committee to produce articles of impeachment by the end of this week. a track that could have the president impeached by christmas. >> we have a very lock solid case. i think the case we have, if presented to a jury, would be a guilty verdict in about three minutes flat. >> while the white house has

declined an invitation to participate in the hearing, the president has been consumed by the issue tweeting and retweeting more than 100 times since yesterday. mostly about impeachment. meanwhile, republican senator ted cruz of texas is the latest republican to advance the russia-promoted debunked theory that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. here he is painfully on "meet the press" yesterday. >> you believe ukraine meddled in the american election in 2016? >> i do. and i think there's considerable evidence of that. >> you do? you do? >> yes. and, chuck, let me say -- >> senator, this sort of strikes me as odd because you went through a primary campaign with this president. he launched a birtherism campaign against you. he went after your faith. he threatened to spill the beans about your wife about something. he pushed a "national enquirer" which we know he had a real relationship with the -- >> i'm glad you're dragging up

all that garbage. that's very kind. >> let me ask you this. is it not possible that this president is capable of creating false narrative about somebody in order to help him politically? >> that's not what happened. the president released the transcript of the phone call. you can read what was said on the phone zblaunld the bidens and you -- you yourself thought the biden part was troubling. >> chalk, let me point out a game that. media's playing. a question you've asked a number of people. do you believe that ukraine and not russia interfered in the election. now that, that in a court of law would be struck as a misleading question. of course russia interfered in our election, nobody look at the evidence disputes that. >> the president of the united states does. >> look, on the evidence, russia clearly interfered in our election. but here's the game the media is playing, because russia interfered, the media pretends nobody else did.

ukraine blatantly interfered in our election. the sitting ambassador from ukraine wrote an op-ed blasting donald trump. >> and there we go. i mean, it's all -- it's all the same. he, you know, he's now attacking the media. this is what the media likes to play. this is the game the media likes to play. and ifthy did they did it in af law the judge would strike it as a misleading question. no, because they would say we can take judicial notice of this because this is what the united states intelligence agencies, all 17 of them have said. mr. cruz himself was warned by the intel agency to not pass along the russian propaganda, to not pass along the lie that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. because, rev, the united states intelligence agencies specifically said that was a lie. and it was a lie that was being pushed by an ex-kgb agent as

respe russia prop gand aaganda and th been doing it for several years. ted cruz knows this is true. he knows he's been spewing russia propaganda and he's pushing it against a guy who lied about him repeatedly in the 2020 campaign and ends up, poor guy, it's the last refuge of the desperate, ends up attacking the media for repeating the words of america's intelligence agencies. >> last refuge for the truly desperate, i think that is the phrase that needs to be coined here. when you look at the fact that this has been totally debunked and that you're going to feed into this against ukraine at a time that your president who you're supporting, senator cruz, has held back military aid to

ukraine. this is the double whammy, not only am i going to extort you, i'm going to blame you for a fans that y fantasy that you had nothing to do with that to protect the one that you were being protected for by the aid. if i was ukraine i'd be protesting in front of the white house. one, i didn't get the aid, two to one i need the aid to defend myself against is interfering in the election, and, three, i'm going to be blamed for being interfered with the election by somebody whose daddy and everybody else was lied on by this president. and he sits up there and defends the president that disparaged his daddy, other members of his family, and he himself. if that is not political desperation and people bowing to donald trump, i don't know what is. it's no wonder trump is in this fantasy world that he's a ruler when you have people that you absolutely disparage sitting is up on national television making

a political i am business smbos themselves. >> he disparaged his wife, suggesting that she was ugly. disparaged him, having the "national enquirer" run an article saying he had affairs with four or five different women. constantly disparaged him, and yet he is now going out pushing russian propaganda and, susan del percio, also continuing the trump lie about it wasn't in the transcript. he said everything but, quote, the transcript was perfect when, of course, we know it wasn't a transcript transcript, first of all. and secondly, we know that even the white house's bleached version of that transcript, which wasn't a transcript, mentioned the bidens and said, but i need you do something for me as well. that summary of the phone call

that ted cruz mentioned is damning enough, has proven the democrats' case. of course they spent two weeks having testimony to just add block by block by block to build that wall of impeachment. but, again, what's ted cruz -- you just wonder how low these republicans can go, how shameless they can be in defense of a man who not only would never defend them, but a man who viciously attacked his wife, viciously attacked his father, and viciously accused him of having an affair with five different women. >> and, joe, it's even worse than just trying to go low to defend donald trump. the republicans and especially when you see someone like ted cruz going on the air, he is actually hurting our democracy. he is basically saying, you cannot trust our military. >> our national security. >> you cannot trust our national security. you cannot trust the basic foundations of which this country is built upon.

and he's trying to make it a thing about process and this. and to your point about what donald trump did to his family and to him, he doesn't care and he's willing to go down this rabbit hole for donald trump. but it's much more significant than that. and we have to start looking at things like it's kind of funny when we laugh at the flushing of the toilets and how many times trump said it and basically, no, he's lying. >> 15. >> 15. but it's continuing on. and it's giving permission for this new environment which is basically lying. we do not -- there's no facts, they are lying to the american people, and they are not being held accountable for it because they're also playing to basically conservative media and trying to get their, you know, kicks in as far as i'm concerned. it's just pathetic. >> well, you know, what's interesting, jonathan lemire, is that often when somebody will say that a politician is hurting

our democracy, as susan del percio said, that could -- listen, that could start a pretty heated debate, except for the fact in this case. the intel community went to the united states senate and warned the united states senate against using russia propaganda talking points like ted cruz just did and warned them that there was -- vladimir putin's goal as a kgb agent, ex-kgb agent was to preach a moral equivalency between russia and ukraine. to get the world talking about ukraine instead of what russia did. and they told senators, this is a lie, but this is something that he's been doing over the past couple of years. and in effect saying don't take the bait because what will it do? it will help putin and it will

hurt us. and, yet, that's exactly what ted cruz and senator kennedy and so many others have done. and, jonathan lemire, as you said, these -- these republicans that are spouting russian propaganda got the good housekeeping seal of approval from the source himself, vladimir putin. >> that's right. i mean, senator kennedy and senator cruz have been the most outspoken on this issue but they're far from alone. other republicans have also parroted portions of these talking points and backing up the president's belief that the ukraine was involved with the 2016 election interference when of course the entire u.s. intelligence community says it wasn't, that they were not involved, that it was russia behind this. we've had -- they've taken their cues from the president who not just in helsinki and other place as to as time and time again not criticized russia for what they did because he feels that it would sort of diminish his

electoral victory in 2016 if he acknowledged there was outside help. >> but, jonathan, at helsinki you know better than everybody because you asked the questions, the president chose to side with the ex-kgb agent instead of with u.s. intel agencies. and even just the past couple weeks what did vladimir putin say? thank god people are talking about ukraine instead of us. they can have good luck with that. so putin is actually thanking these republican senators in press conferences for spouting his propaganda and his lies. i wonder what the good people of louisiana and texas think about that. >> well, we certainly have seen noolg suggests that republicans had a more favorable view of russia than they've ever had because donald trump does. in helsinki he was given the choice, who do you believe, united states intelligence agency or russia? he chose russia. we had a few weeks ago putin in

a press conference suggesting this is a good thing, the heat is off us now. the heat -- people are talking about ukraine being the one to meddle in the election, not russia. and let's also set it going forward. all these talking points from the president, from these senators, this just makes it hard for the u.s. to defend it from happening again. it makes it that much easier for russia to interfere with the 2020 elections too. we know the president at times has suggested he would come the outside help. >> and throwing away our national security and anything else for the sake of trying to win, this devaluing the truth, donny, on top of it along with impeachment, republicans, and the trump campaign are going to use in the run up to the election. >> yeah. >> they're going to use these lies to try and win the election again. and i worry, i worry it could work. >> well, here's the way it is working. they did a study as far as talking to people who get exclusively their news from fox.

55% of those people said that there is nothing donald trump could do that would take him out of office versus 29% who get their news from other places, they don't care. i want to go back to ted cruz as a man for a second. joe, you grew up in pensacola, i grew up in queens. what would your reaction be if somebody came after your father, if somebody came after your wife, the pathetic wienieness of him. i wasn't wait to run against a guy like that and say what kind of man not only lets it happen, but then gets on the bandwagon of somebody who went after their dad, who went after their wife, called their wife ugly. joe, i know you're a very genteel man, in pensacola they debate things in a nice way. how would you handle it as a politician if somebody came after your family? >> if somebody attacked my family, if somebody attacked my father and wife, i would spend the rest of my life actually focused on destroying their

political career. i mean, i just would. i'd have no choice. that's just -- that's just the way it is. that's what a man does. i've, you know, mika, you've heard me say time and time again, i've learned as i get older, you do turn the other cheek. you ignore as many things as you can ignore. but, yeah, it is -- it remains a mystery to me how ted cruz could lie and spout russian propaganda for a man -- in defense of a man who attacked his own daddy. and who attacked his wife w, wh caused pain to his wife by pushing a lie in the "national enquirer" that ted cruz was having an affair with five different women. i mean, he knows donald trump was responsible for that lie. and yet here he is pushing another lie, but this isn't just donald trump's lie, it's

vladimir putin's lie. and it remains and will remain a mystery to me why any man would -- would so blindly serve and just be a helping someone who visually attacked his family. >> and i think we must also look at the fact that there's a much bigger problem here. 30, 40 years from now how are we going to look at it? we have now normalized people lying about members of people's family we're running against. we're normalizing questioning intelligence, giving us information on foreign countries. we're normalizing foreign governments interfere with our elections. this president has changed how we govern and the political culture in this country, and that's what's more important than ted cruz and anybody else. we are becoming normal what was abnormal just a moment ago. >> i don't think we can find the word yet to describe the damage this is doing. >> that's right.

>> on our democracy. and to button this up, the world antidoping agency voted this morning to ban russia from all global sports for four years after discovering a year's long cheating scheme. the ruling prohibits russia from participating in next summer's olympic games in tokyo and the 2022 world cup in qatar. after the agency concluded that russia tampered with laboratory data including planting fake evidence and deleting files to positive doping tests. russia will also not be allowed to host or bid on any future sporting event and its flag will not be allowed to fly at any major event. the country has 21 days to submit an appeal to the court of arbitration for sports in switzerland. there you go. still ahead on "morning joe," senator kirsten gillibrand joins the conversation. how she's prepping for the president's likely impeachment trial in the senate.

plus, senator elizabeth warren and mayor pete buttigieg are trading attacks. what it says about the state of the race just eight weeks until iowa. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> good morning, mika. we're going to see tons of delays in the northeast, and even in the ohio valley. maybe snow for d.c. this morning. rain has snuck up the east coast now into new york city, trying to move up into boston. a slow drive. i think the even drive will be worse with heavy rain. here's how i see the airports playing out. we've got the low clouds, rain, not dealing with too much house. interior sections of new england i heard there's a little coating out there earlier today but it will turn over to rain. heavy rain possible in new york airports this afternoon, philadelphia, and washington, d.c. during the middle of the day today. here's how the week plays out. we get a sunny break on the west coast, you had your stormy weather this past weekend.

here's the rain today, ohio valley and northeast. then tuesday rain through the southeast. then wednesday morning the i-95 corridor is going from rain to snow during the night, tuesday night we're going to wake up to some snow in new york city, philadelphia, and d.c. it does not look like a heavy snow event, but may be enough for some school delays in a few spots. and then on friday another wintery mess comes up the east coast, it looks like a rainy saturday in the northeast. as far as the snow accumulations go, today, minneapolis all the way through wisconsin and as far as washington, d.c., philly, new york and boston looks like 1 to 3 inches possible wednesday morning. i'll give you an update on that forecast tomorrow morning to see if it gets any better or any worse. christmas tree looking good in the rain this morning. of course i'm not out in it. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪

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joe." just on a personal note here, mika, we've talked about the weekend in politics, but for you personally for your former colleagues at channel 3 and hartford, for deb nis hounnis h the entire state of connecticut, some sad news this weekend. >> it was so shocking. apparently this was a sudden and unexpected passing. i was shaiking t shaking to the learn that my friend had died. that's where i got my career started in local news and, orred for a decade. denise served as the anchor there since 1986 alongside my old friend dennis house. they were coanchors for 25 years. denise was a friend and mentor. she was strength, warmth, and confidence wrapped up in the kindest heart i will ever know. i'd like to remember her

beautiful voice. >> i have so excited to be able to share this story with you. and dennis knows me. i -- whenever i got a chance to show the strength of the human spirit, whenever i the good a chance to tell a story where people are able to overcome the challenges they have in a way that's with integrity and grace and courage, i love it. and this is one of those stories. >> denise was one of the greats. her connection a story, no matter what it was, was real. you could hear it in her voice. taught me a lot about communicating effectively if the was her kindness that always came through because she was truly kind. so calm and so very reassuring. so connected to you, the viewer. and for women who are looking for some guidance on authenticity and presence, pull up videos of denise, just any recording of her reading the news. listen to her voice, listen to the kindness, the caring, the

courage. she was hartford's finest anchor for 31 years, bar none. she was only 61 years old and my channel 3 family is distraught because she was the foundation of that station. their conscience, their north star. denise is survived by their husband wayne and their daughter catherine who say senior at cornell. we're praying for them and we'll be right back. . if you're beginning your career as a teacher, journalist, professional, social work, he why not be a kind one? wherever grou from here, set an example by doing your job and living your life with kindness. ( ♪ )

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37 past the hour. look at capitol hill this morning. a lot's going to be happening there at 9:00 a.m. eastern time. president trump said over the weekend that his personal attorney rudy giuliani wants to deliver information he's gathered on ukraine to congress.

and attorney general william barr. the president told reports that giuliani hasn't told him what information he's found yet, but he's heard there's a lot go through. >> well, i just know he came back from someplace and he's going to make a report i think to the attorney general and to congress. he says he has a lot of good information. i have not spoken to him about that information, but rudy, as you know, has been one of the great crime fighters of the last 50 years. he has not told me what he's found, but think he wants to go before congress and say -- and also to the attorney general and to the department of justice. i hear he's found plenty. >> nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker asked giuliani about trump's comments and whether he intends to give information to the attorney general and lawmakers. giuliani texted back all my conversations are privilege and he can disclose what he's comfortable with. i'm in process of still analyzing what i've received. meanwhile, "the washington post" is reporting that during several

conversations in recent months attorney general william barr has counseled president trump in general terms that giuliani has become a liability and a problem for the administration. that's according to multiple people familiar with the conversations. in one discussion, attorney general barr warned trump that he was not being well served by his lawyer. officials tell the post that white house aides fear giuliani has used his role as the president's lawyer to promote the interests of private clients fretting that they do not know who he represents. giuliani says his conversations with trump are protected by attorney/client privilege. the post notes that former white house chief of staff john kelly tried to limit giuliani's reach scheduling his meetings with trump at the white house residence so he would not interact with other white house staff. former administration officials say kelly also told others he

did not want to be part of calls or meetings with giuliani. the justice department and the white house both declined to comment on the post reporting. giuliani did not respond to multiple calls and messages and his lawyer declined to comment as well. joe. >> well, jonathan lemire, mike said these guys, giuliani and trump, are like the sunshine boys except they're not trying to be funny in the quote from trump, he just got back from someplace, just got back -- i don't -- and i mean, i haven't talked to him about what he found at someplace, but he just got back from someplace and giuliani, of course, going all over ukraine trying to do god knows what at a time when donald trump's being impeached because what giuliani tried to do the last time he was there. but, a lot of reports this weekend, jonathan. what can you tell us about it coming from the white house about not just the attorney general, but also a lot of white

house insiders very concerned about just how reckless rudy giuliani is still being. >> right. attorney general barr is far from alone. there are officials in the justice department, officials in the state department, officials in the west wing who all have expressed great concern about giuliani's actions from earlier this year that they believe helped walk president trump up to the brink of impeachment, and now that he's still there. i talked to someone over the weekend who literally said that they could not -- they thought i was joking when i went to them and said did you hear giuliani's back in ukraine? and a person close to the president like almost could not believe their ears that he would go back there to stir up more trouble. and giuliani of course is suggesting that he's going to find evidence to exonerate the president, that he would find more damaging evidence about the bidens. of course, no biden has been charged with any wrongdoing in any matter in the ukraine. but this is something that people around the president are very anxious about. they feel like giuliani is

celebrate for t desperate for the spotlight. he was a fierce advocate for trump on the 2016 campaign, thought he'd be rewarded with secretary of state, wasn't going to get that. could have perhaps received a lesser cabinet position, homeland security was bandied about. he chose not to pentded ended uo post whatsoever. then he was the president's personal attorney and then the mueller probe and now this matter. but there are people around him urging him to cast giuliani aside. but to this point, at least not for now, he's not going to do so. he likes him being an attack dog and defending him in the media and still is willing to support him. >> let's bring in mike barn knack will and state attorney for palm beach county dave ehrenberg. dave, i want to jump to the question about rudy giuliani had the how does his travel to ukraine impact the questions about him and the federal investigation of him? >> rudy's really something,

isn't he, mika? >> he is. >> he continues to engage in this drug deal in plain sight. he's got about as much self-awareness as a peloton commercial. >> wow. >> oh, that's light. >> wow. >> i mean, yeah, that's low. you know, he's out there running around in plain sight taunting prosecutors who are investigating him. if he's out there representing the president, then it looks like a campaign finance law violation. if he's representing foreign clients. and it looks like a violation of the foreign agents registration act. and if he's just a private citizen doing his own bidding representing no one but himself just to give a report to the attorney general and congress for potential investigation, then is he really a private citizen? i know a lot of private citizens who would like that kind of power. even the president's staunchest allies like congressman matt gaetz who said his trip to ukraine was weird. and when you lost matt gaetz, you know you're in trouble.

>> lost matt gaetz? that's a bad sign. >> you know, multiple by lines today, how an ex-mayor leds a president to the brink of impeachment. when you read the entire piece, it's quite lengthy. >> yeah. >> it's kind of pathetic. here's a guy who is mayor of new york city, everyone remembers him on september 11th in which he did a heroic job that day and in the days ensuing. he is now claim clambering for spotlight. and if he puts together this report that he's supposedly doing in the ukraine, maybe, dave, you can answer this. what does doe with the do with who does he give it to and what's to be done with it? >> that shows he's not really a private citizen if he has the power to give the attorney general directly a report or congress a report and then they

act on it. rudy's trip to ukraine undermines the narrative for the republicans that we should just wait until 2020 and the elections to decide trump's fate. don't do it through impeachment by congress because, remember, giuliani's in ukraine to try to encourage foreign interference in the 2020 elections. which shows why the impeachment hearings were necessary. >> rev, you know, we grew up in this city with giuliani as mayor and, yes, mike, for a few days he did do something heroically for the city. yet, he traded on it from is there on. and anybody that lives in this town knows that he exploited 9/11. you know, i don't even want to give him that because in the years to come, in the most self-serving way, he exploited the greatest tragedy that we have lived through. and new yorkers -- >> wait, wait, i can't -- i can't let you say that on my show. >> joe, you can let me say it. >> if you've got issues -- >> it's not true. >> if you've got issues with rudy giuliani, take up those

issues with rudy giuliani and what's going on right now. i know for myself and for a lot of americans when george bush was stumbling the first week, it was rudy who stepped into the void. it wasn't until -- >> i'm not talk about the first week. i'm talking to me -- >> go ahead, joe. >> let's just talk about what's going on now and don't bring up 9/11. if we want to talk about rudy, i say that makes it more of a tragedy that rudy giuliani, along with the great people of new york city and a great police commissioner turned this city around in '93 and '94 and '95 and '96. i mean, we can talk about that. we can talk -- i can tell you what i believe about 9:11. i thi 9/11. i think that makes what's going on the last three years -- >> i don't usually zblupt yinte

>> we can agree to disagree because i think he showed a lot of his soul after that. he was highly unpopular by the time he left office, highly. he did his job, those days, but for many, many, many months and years afterwards, i felt. we can gidisagree. >> there was no one more critical of rudy giuliani than me, no one led more marches. but think what he and bush did during 9/11 which we were all petrified was needed. i was never critical of him in terms of 9/11. and shockingly the city came together. now, did he do his job? yes. but i would not attack that. what he's doing now, though, i think has zdisgraced him and th potential legacy he could have had in this divisive rude dha we know is the rude dha that we kn that would use anything to his

advantage that we knew pre and post-9/11. 9/11 stands alone because we did not know there was another attack coming in those hours sitting there with no cell phone use not knowing what we were under it was important to have leadership. but the ugly rudy before that before the divisiveness and all that after, i think he deserves all of the criticism that we can put on him. i think that's the chickens coming home to roost. when i look at the "new york times" about 3:30 this morning with this headline saying that the ex-mayor is the one bringing donald trump to the brink of impeachment, that is where rudy giuliani may end up going in history the at the may be the man that helped to bring donald trump down, if not -- >> absolutely in an election and i think that is something that is very interesting, particularly when trump humiliated him by not making him secretary of state or attorney general.

there's some part of -- that he's very happy about this. >> as someone who worked for giuliani, i worked in the administration for six years, i'll tell you i believed in a wlooft we we lot of what we were doing. there were issues in this administration and yes, towards the end of his second term before 9/11, he was not that popular. that being said -- >> deservedly so. >> okay. but in the months and years that followed 9/11, as someone who is aware of the comfort and the things he did for people after 9/11, years after the fact, he was there. did he make money after he left office? yes, a lot of people do. as we are well aware. but i will -- what he has become today and this article is frightening, it's depressing, it's really sad as someone who supported the mayor. i am devastated by what he has become and what he is doing. i think he's not just doing a

disservice to the president and giving him bad advice, but he's doing a discredit to the country. and that, to me, is right is there. but as someone, again, the months and years after 9/11, what he did for people that a lot of folks aren't aware of, i will not take that away from him ever. >> but he should use it. i mean, in that same article this morning, to think that he brought these guys from ukraine to the 9/11 -- >> now that is -- i agree. >> that goes to donny's point to the exploit it now and use it now. >> he wasn't using that there. when you read that story and he brought him to the 9/11 din, he that a dinner, that dinner was sacred for years and years. so a lot of people were surprised when he brings these two ukrainians in, it was shocking. >> why would you do that? >> but that wasn't for any gain. but just to make it clear, that was a private dinner. no one protested ofited off of

dpoint thi. i think it just showed where he was. >> if were if he brought them there, inquiring mind wants to know why. >> mika, obviously i'm not defending post 9/11 rudy beyond what he did in those years after that susan's talking about. and certainly he has acted abhorrently and it's very depressing, again, for knows who actual those who looked up to this guy. he was called america's mayor, but had a controversial run as mayor of new york. but what is so, i think, distressing and also just so unbelievable is, you know, we were walking down the street, mika, and we won't mention the name, but last week somebody came up to me and mika and me and who i won't say the name but

was associated with rudy giuliani in his glory years as mayor of new york city and during 9/11 and said, isn't it so sad what a tragedy it is that -- i'm just using the words that were said to me -- that this old man is so desperate to be in the headlines that he has shattered any positive legacy that he would have ever had after all the things we went through defending him through the years. and it is. it is all about the spotlight, it's all about grbac tabbing tht headline and he's willing to squander his existence for a pocket full of headlines. >> people who know him see a real decline in his behavior and everything. >> absolutely. state attorney for paul -- >> including -- including the president of the united states. >> yeah. >> which is so bizarre that the president of the united states even before he was sworn in as

president of the united states was talking about in the president's words, not mine, that rudy giuliani had lost quite a few steps, especially after 6:00 p.m. that's the president's words. state attorney for palm beach county, dave ehrenberg, thank you very much. good to have you on. still ahead, we're counting down to another impeachment hearing this morning, the house judiciary committee will walk through the intelligence committees 300 page report playing out the democrats' case for impeaching president trump. we'll talk to the intelligence committee member jim himes about that, plus, there's a growing fe feud between two front runners, senator elizabeth warren and mayor pete buttigieg are clashing over transparency. the latest on that 2020 fight ahead on "morning joe." test on ahead on "morning joe." ♪ everybody needs somebody... ♪

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beautiful shot of the white house at three minutes before the top of the hour. live look at the white house. lights are on, they're up working. welcome back to "morning joe," it's monday, december 9th. still with us, we have msnbc contributor mike barn nickal, donny deutsch is with us getting interrupted. susan del percio, host of msnbc politics nation and president of the nation national action network reverend al sharpton. and white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. and joining the conversation, cnbc editor at large john harwood and axios political reporter alexi mccammond. good to have you all on board. let's start with joe biden at the top of the hour who is defending his son hunter's work on the board of burisma in a recent interview with axios. let's take a look. >> what was your understanding of what your son was doing for

an extraordinary amount of money? >> i don't know what he was doing. i found out he was on the board after he was on the board and that was it. there's nobody -- >> you had a lot of time. isn't this something you want to get to the bottom of? >> no, because i trust my son. >> but that doesn't pass the smell test if the when you're vice president, isn't there a higher standard? don't you need to know what's happening with your family? don't you need to put down some guardrails? >> unless there was something on its face that was wrong. there's nothing on its face that was wrong. look, if you want to talk about problems, you know, let's talk about trump's family. i mean, come on. this is -- you guys are amazing. >> so you think that everything that happened was kosher? >> you know there's not one single bit of evidence, not one little tiny bit to suggest anything done was wrong. >> that's not what we're talking about, though. >> what do you think of that, mika? >> there is not any evidence

that anything was illegal. that's not the issue. >> i mean, at the same time, is he tame tiat the same time he h understand the president is going to ask these questions and the incorrect answer is nobody told me or something like that. his son was in ukraine on a board making money for a job that he wasn't qualified for. when joe biden was the senator for delaware he was on the board of a bank making money for a job he wasn't qualified for if the when . when he was in china' was working for a hedge fund in an area he wasn't qualified for. >> and -- >> very different from illegal. >> yes, it is. but it's still, again, for a lot of voters it's going to cause a problem. it wasn't illegal that hillary clinton spoke at goldman sachs. >> which is why -- >> it wasn't illegal that

hillary clinton spoke at state universities got paid $200,000 for the same universities she had represented before. all i'm saying the correct answer for joe biden is this. my son's 49 years old, he's almost 50 years old, okay. >> ask him about it. >> if you've got -- i love my son, but if you've got a question about my son, you need to ask my son. i'm focusing on your son. on your daughter. on your family, on your job, on your future. that's -- because, again -- >> that's what i'm frustrated about here. but let me show you have something, joe. >> his son is almost 50 years old. >> i know. >> it's all right for him to say, i love my son, but you need to talk to my son did it. >> and from what i know aboutty wouldn't have done if. he could even say that. meanwhile, bind said over the weeke biden said he was not warned about a conflict of interest for his son. >> you know it didn't look good

for hunter to be on that board, even if he did nothing wrong the optics weren't good. you talk a lot about being a biden and irning ntegrity in th name. but there was people who warned you about a potential conflict of interest. >> nobody warned me about a conflict of interest. nobody warned me about that. >> george kent, the state department official testified that he raised it to you and to your staff. >> no, he did not say -- >> to your staff, i stand corrected. >> i never heard that once at all. >> to your staff, and your staff told him he has no bandwidth. >> well, my son was dying, i guess that's why he said it because my son was on his deathbed. but that's not the reason why she should have told me. >> so the new yorker reported in july that an obama administration official had warned biden writing, quote, in december, 2015, as joe biden prepared to return to ukraine, his aides braced for renewed scrutiny of hunt eer's

relationship with burisma. the obama administration special envoy for energy policy raised the matter with biden but did not go so far to recommend that hunter leave the board. again, joe, it's nothing illegal, it was investigated. >> right. >> you know, it's the kind of thing that you would say i wouldn't do it, it doesn't look good. that's something you can say to your son. >> yeah. let's just, again, take a couple steps back. if you or either of your brothers had been in the country getting consulting fees in an area that you weren't qualified to get consulting fees from while your father was doing important diplomatic business there, your father would have known and your father would have dragged you all out of that country. that's just the reality. and, but at the same time, there was a real innocence that answer when he talked about how his son was dying. and he didn't have the band wid

toth handle it, he probably didn't want to talk to him about it. again, it's not illegal. i mean, the trumps do not want to talk. >> about -- >> the trumps do not want to talk about children cashing in on last names. they are inside the white house. they are making, you know, millions and millions of dollars off of it and they have made millions and millions of dollars off of it in the past and even right now. so the trumps obviously have absolutely no room to talk of the decision. >> but this should be easier for joe biden. and, by the way, mike barnicle wants to get in. >> mike, this is easy. let me say it again. his son is almost 50 years old. he can say i love my son, he's an adult, i he's almost 50 years old. you've got a question you can take it up with hunter. but from what i know, he hasn't done anything illegal. now let's talk about the trumps. that's the answer. >> joe, the bottom line on this

is joe biden has to come up with a better explanation, a shorter, very succinct explanation. you take about a one-minute statement do it because he's going to be hounded by this, over this every day of the campaign trail. what you've got to factor in on a personal slefl hlevel is how s he at the attacks on his son, his family, and the anger, i think it requires him to spend an enormous amount of energy not to really get angry in public. because he's confront with this nearly every day. and the trump administration and the trump people are doing the same thing here with ukraine and hunter biden and joe biden that they did with hillary clinton's emails. and we, in the media, are going along with it. nothing happened here. >> but hold on a second. hold on a second. we in the media said when she had that horrific press conference very early on at the

united nations, we in the media said that's not going to cut it. get your answer, make it truthful. >> correct. >> and get out in front of in the and you know what hillary clinton did? just the opposite. so these people who wlihine abo why the press continued on hillary clinton and say i bet you feel bad -- no, no, that's what reporters do. attacking mike schmidt in "the new york times" because he did his job, because she never answered it. john harwood, he needs a 30 second answer. there's a good 30 second answer for this. i mean, he was asked this question in the last debate. the first question, and he stumbled aid round on it because he still -- is there anybody inside the biden campaign or the family that can sit him down and say, joe, i know this is painful but here's a piece of paper. you need to figure out what the hell you're going to say because it's going to keep being asked and get your answer and stay ay and keep tund a minute. >> i agree with you, he needs a better answer and i thought the

one you suggested was pretty good. you might have a future in politics. >> i doubt it. >> but, look. -- yeah. it's obvious what happened here. i don't think hunter biden did anything on the burisma board other than sell his name for the burisma board, that's how influence pedaling wordling wor. it is unseemly, that's what happened. there's no evidence that joe biden did anything wrong. and as mike barnicle was just saying, it's painful and difficult for him. his son's had struggles over the years. he doesn't want to hurt his son. his other son was dying at the time this came up. i think that's what happened. he has indicated that he thinks it was wrong because he said when he's president his children will not be able to do that. so you don't prohibit something if there was nothing wrong with it in the first place. >> that's correct. >> but he's had difficulty coming out with it and saying it simply. you're absolutely right about

that. >> so, alexi, you're looking at how voters in iowa look at this situation with joe biden and his son. what are they saying? >> yeah. and before we get to that, i just want to be add something. i was joining joe biden during his no malarky tour in iowa for the last few days of the trip. one thing was clear over and over again, whether it was former secretary of state john kerry or a local precinct leader for the iowa caucuses, the people around former vice president joe biden are much better at telling his narrative and his story than he is capable of doing. but this issue with hunter is simply the not something that he can allow the folks around him to kline, to yoclean up in theo he needs to find a better answer on. this is something when he called the man a damn liar, this is what we saw when he called us rotters on his bus for a 15-minute conversation. and he shut it down after a few rounds of back and forth because he simply doesn't want to talk

about it anymore. but what i learned from iowa voters is that while it's not coming up on the trail a lot, these questions about hunter or other things, they like the way that they think joe biden is more of a moderate pragmatic person who touts his ability to work with republicans. that was a striking thing i heard many times from voters at these events in iowa. they're not hissing at the ideas of a democrat working across the aisle of a republican in 2019, which is what youd you'd expe'd a lot of the people in the party. that's not the case with voters showing up to these events in iowa who like people like joe biden, army klobuchar and mayor pete buttigieg because they're not chasing these pie in the sky ideas as these voters put it to me. >> and, again, think there's a lineage from those sort of candidates in iowa back to barack obama. people who were hopeful, people who say, hey you know what? we're in a bad place but things

can get better, hope and change. 2020 style. but, you know, mike barnicle, we're talking about this now and talking about the impact it's going to have, i think, in a general election if joe biden doesn't get it behind him. and it's very easy to cut it off. you know what? this is my statement. i'm not going to say anything else about it, the statement speaks for itself. i don't think it's going to impact him in the democratic primaries, but it would give trump something to beat him up with. but whether you're talking about this or the $56,000 that elizabeth warren made every year over 30 years or whatever the hell it was that mayor pete did for whatever consulting firm, i mean, people's eyes glaze over. they want to know can i afford to send my kid to following?

am college? am goig hai going to have healt over the next two years? sore it de or is it dead? those are the questions iowans are going to be asking. >> not just iowa, all over. new hampshire, south carolina, everywhere. and alexi pointed out something significant as far as joe biden and his campaign goes. first zrer have t first, he does have to come up with a 30-second statement that he can put this thing away down the road. but the second thing have the people who go to bind rallies are ordinary people like ordinary americans all over the country. guess what? he has one thing that separates him from the pack, i think, and it is that there are two kinds of people at his rallies. people who really like him and people who want to like him. which is critical. and if you look at joe biden, rev, you know, take this in the

right way. if you look at him in contrast to the field, biden is ronald reagan. people like him and they want to like him. people liked reagan and they want -- it's a huge thing to have. >> no, he has a very big likability factor. what he has to do is be careful not to give people to not continue to like him. and i think the 30-second or 60-second explanation is right. i think i would say joe is closer than anyone that i've heard say, he's a 49-year-old man. if he did wrong, i'll throw him in front of the bus. but i don't think did he wrong. but i'm his father, what i can do to a 49-year-old man? i'm a father two of daughters in their 30s. do you really think i can control what they do? and everybody out there would understand that. >> thank you. >> i mean, what are you talking about? >> exactly. >> you can barely tell a 16-year-old what do. a 49-year-old man? >> amen. >> there's one other thing, just real quick have that joe biden will have to deal with this,

like joe said, potentially in the general election. after this impeachment trial, if it goes to the senate, donald trump is most likely going to say, look, i was found not guilty. and joe biden will still have to be explaining it while trump is saying, look, i did nothing wrong. and that's a big problem. >> yeah. but, you know, mika, it is with joe biden you do have, as mike said, you do have a likability factor. >> absolutely. >> and it's something -- it's something that will help him out. and one other thing, too, joe biden has been -- well, this week i think would be complementary in the debates. he's been stumbling around, he's been staggering around. you sit there and you wonder if he's still with it. i will say that the silver lining in these contentious back and forths that he has had, i'm curious what john harwood things

thinks of this, of those contentious back and forths concerning his son, i think he's given every bit as he's gotten. i don't think it's a fight he should have. i think it would be best for him if he wrote that statement down. but he's had had some back and forths that have been fairly strong with the press over the past few weeks. >> i agree with that and i don't think that exchange with that voter hurts him at all nifrpgt it's importa. i think it's clear that susan right the president will say i was acquitted in the senate and joe biden did this in ukraine. it's important to state very clearly, there's zero evidence that joe biden did anything wrong and there's abundant evidence that president trump did something very, very wrong. that is to say, he pressured a vulnerable ally that was at war with russia, that was under attack from russia. he pressured them by withholding

aid, withholding a meeting that the new president needed to buttress his legitimacy in order to get a personal political favor. that is wrong on a massive scale. now, whether it's -- he should be forced out of office or not, that's another question, that's what the congress will decide. but he did it, the evidence shows he did it, it was wrong, and it was a very important issue as opposed to joe biden, yes, there are was -- there was a conflict that his son raised by taking that seat on the board. joe biden, all the evidence shows he did his job well. president trump has not. >> yep. and, by the way, donny, it's very simple. if donald trump says, hey, i was acquit and joe biden still has a cloud hang offering his head, no, nobody's ever accused that -- i mean, there's no evidence

that joe biden did anything wrong whatsoever. and with donald trump, if it keeps going the way it looks like it's going to go, donald trump will have been running as only the fourth impeached president in u.s. history. the only reason he wasn't removed from office is he's got a bunch of republicans who have taken to quoting russian propaganda and vladimir putin who are defending him. so, great, he's on the side of russian-loving republicans while the people's house impeached him. that's not something i want to take to wisconsin voters. that's not something i'm proud of when i'm in front of michigan or pennsylvania or florida voters. it's not a good look for a president running for re-election. >> i want to also go back to your point about he's kind of almost found some mojo. the one thing in trump's brand that nobody has been able to kind of counterpunch back is strength. like it or not, he excused strength and that's what people

are drawn to. what you're seeing in joe biden now is a certain strength that you have not seen that's been brought out because he's kind of got this street fight thing. and think that that -- he has a commanding presence and in addition to mike's point about the likability, if he can continue to exert this strength, almost flip this, take what is obviously problematic and will continue to be problematic and keep that pissed off are you kidding me? there are other things we need to talk about and by the way the other guy is impeached. but this is a tone that we have seen and that "s" word, that strength word is critical. >> i have to say, joe, on donny's point, i think president trump may claim the mantle of strength, but i do not think in his conduct he excused strength. look at saudi arabia. he looks extraordinarily weak in dealing with saudi arabia. he's been extraordinarily weak in dealing with russia. i don't think -- he'll say what he'll say.

but i don't think the -- >> what about north korea? >> there you go. >> he's given north korea the store. he's allowing them to develop nuclear weapons in the light of day that will be able to strike american cities in the heart of america, kill millions of americans. he talks about love letters being sent back and forth, he and he continually is insult and was again yesterday by north korea and they're -- >> he's making us weak. >> this is the antithesis of strength. >> that's something that joe biden really hit over the head time and time again in iowa. i was surprised when i showed up at how much these winding, long-wind stump speeches focussed on foreign policy. but focussed on what joe biden was arguing is a national embarrassment because of president trump. he's saying that president trump is weakening our standing in the world and if he were elected president wouldn't be an

international embarrassment any way that he says president trump is. he talked about kim jong-un in the love letters that you all just mentioned that president trump loves to talk about them sending back and forth. they talk about vladimir putin. they're dropping these names of these dictators around the world that president trump has cozied up to as a way for joe biden to show his strength on an international stage and the way that he would be a clear contrast to someone like donald trump if elected president. and i thought that was an interesting electability argument. obviously we had nato last week and that ad that the biden campaign cut that they found great success in, which was she showing these other world leaders laughing at our president. but it was an interesting electability pitch for bind to focus on foreign policy and what trump is doing to the u.s. global. >> i and no evidence that joe biden did anything wrong, abundant evidence that this president shook down a foreign leader for dirt on a political rival. that's just half of it. whatever's in that secret server we might know more.

and not to mention his kids. hunter biden did something legal, maybe not smart. while donald trump has ivanka in there running for president using her father's office of the presidency to rowe promote her ae self all day. and let's not forget don junior selling books and -- you know, good point. alexi mccammond, thank you very much for your reporting. john harwood, we'll be watching your interview with job as part of your speak easy series. still ahead on "morning joe," a member of one of the committees presenting evidence in this morning's high-stakes impeachment hearing. congressman jim himes is standing by. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. y. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. can determine your future. your school. your job. your dreams. your problems. (indistinct shouting) but at the y, we create opportunities for everyone, no matter who you are

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much for being with us. i want to ask you what we're going to be hearing about later today, but let's back up just a little bit. i'm curious if there's any talk inside the democratic conference about, perhaps, slowing down a bit. expanding out this impeachment inquiry. i know the thought originally was let's move fast, it's an open and closed case, we may get some republicans on board here, but, i mean, they've taken to spouting vladimir putin's talking points, russian propaganda. so why don't democrats take their time, expand it, and leave a record for history about how donald trump just may be the most corrupt president in the history of this republic? >> yeah. well, joe, there's a couple answers to that. number one, you know, you were never going to get to a point where you had everything that you wanted, particularly, and remember this is not our issue, particularly when the president has said i will not cooperate, my people not cooperate, they will not produce emails, they

will not produce documents. that makes an investigation hard. there's no reason to believe, and, remember, it took us four months to get a court to say that don mcgahn needs to show up. that decision is being appealed. there's no reason to believe that if we went that route that donald trump wouldn't play this out for, you know, four, five, six, a year. and, of course, the key point is, as you've said, the evidence is really very clear now about the abusive power. and certainly about the contempt of congress involved in what i was just talking about saying, i don't like this impeachment so i'm not going to cooperate. that obviously in and of itself is clearly a fact and an impeachable offense. >> congressman, we have a second judiciary committee hearing today. can you walk us through a little bit as to what we should expect to hear, you know, white house has declined to participate yet again. what do you think americans who are perhaps confused by some of what the hearing last week with some of the scholars, what do you think they'll hear today

that will perhaps change their mind and enforce why democrats need to move forward with this? >> today is going to be about the facts. the last hearing last week was a bunch of experts on constitutional law talking about what does impeachment mean, under what circumstances has a president committed an impeachable offense, that's all very sort of abstract and academic. today you'll hear from dan goldman and steve castor on the republican side presenting the facts of the report. no surprise, right, because they're not going to present anything that wasn't in the actual report. but members and the counsel's of both sides will have an opportunities to ask questions about those facts. my guess is that it's not a terribly good moment for the white house, and that's of course why i think they're not participating. because, again, the facts, you know, you can argue about how bad it is that the president is asking a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent, but the facts are not in dispute. and so people are going to hear those facts in a way that will bring them to life in a way that

a 300-page black and white report does not. >> congressman, thus far the american public has been witness to a sprawl of evidence that you heard on the intelligence committee in addition to the mueller report. but putting it altogether and thinking about it, how many counts would you like to see in any impeachment proceeding brought against the president? >> well, my guess is that you're going to see at least two. you're going to see abuse of power, which of course is using that white house meeting, using military aid as leverage. that's not stuff donald trump or any president gets to use. that is the -- those are the as 70s americ as sa assets of the american public. that's abuse of power, full stop. the second one, and i feel strongly about this one have what we were talking about before. contempt of the congress. i had this conversation with my republican colleagues all the time. there will be democratic

presidents down the road and do you want to establish a precedent where the president says i don't like this inquiry, i'm not going to cooperate. you agree to that and you're agreeing to the checks and balances that are an important part of our system. where it gets interesting and where there's going to be a debate is bob mueller tees up ten counts of obstruction of justice. i think that's a more complicated debate because, of course, the republicans say but mueller didn't -- you may not have found good conduct, all the meetings with russians and giving polling to russians but he didn't find indictable conduct. we'll have a question on that third count. >> congressman, donny deutsch. words of obstruction and abuse are good impeachment words. to me, i'd love to see the word criminal and bribe and extortion, because those are words that the average person understands and you can tie to a bigger place. it's criminal what he's trying to do to your health care and

it's criminal how he's made the rich richer and hasn't done any education. i would love a set of words somewhere in there that are a jumping off point that don't live in the world of law but live in the more kitchen table world. >> yeah. donny, that's a really good point. i think that is exactly why the one time you've seen the needle move in a big way on public sentiment was actually not in the hearings in which all the facts came out, it was when people first heard about that transcript. when they read that transcript and they read those words, i want you to us a favor, though, and with respect to the ambassador, highly respected ambassador, she's going to go through some things. i mean, that's right out of a mob mini series or out of god dpaer godfather. americans felt the afghanistaner like behavior there. where i draw the line, this is important at least for me, as appalling as some of the president's policies have been, whether that's immigration policy or tax bill which hand an

immense amount of money to wealthy people, i feel strang strongly we've got to keep policy out of this impeachment discussion. they tried it under nixon to put forward articles that were about his conduct of the vietnam war. we can't let the country go to a place where impeachment is anything other than going after a president because he violates his owniath to the constitution it can't be a tooul tol. but your broader points are right. a lot of those are abstract. >> how do you bat tcombat the f against the truth? we were watching ted cruz spouting off of this russian conspiracy theory about ukraine defending it hole hog with juwhe hog with no cham shame. >> it's one thing to deny climate change and theyfie don'

feel it's cold outside. but to employ the russian tactics and standing up for a president you didn't think much of three years ago but today you're in slavish worship to is mind boggling. we is all have a responsibility. we have a responsibility fought facts out. the press has the responsibility to fairly report the facts. at the end of the day, the american people in a democracy, the participants in our democracy, the citizens have an obligation, you know, to themselves and more importantly to our future to set aside emotion, to set aside thing anner thating anner that y ange because you got in a fight with your neighbor about it. there is no doubt into my mind i was here for all eight years of the boehm administration, thoba he would have been impeached for

a tenth of the things that are happening now. we have to think what's right and wrong. >> congressman jim himes, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. coming up, it seems the president is unable to speak with jewish groups without throwing around anti-semitic tropes. the latest instance just this weekend we'll show you next on "morning joe." his weekend we'll show you next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ ♪ do you recall, not long ago ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on

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37 past the hour. some jewish groups are accusing president trump of once against trafficking anti-semitic stereotypes. this time while addressing the israeli-american counsel still in florida over the weekend. one remark about money, the other echoing his past criticism about jewish democrats being disloyal. watch. >> we have to get the people of our country, of this country, to love israel more. i have to tell you that we have do it. we have to get them to love

israel more. because you have people that are jewish people that are great people, they don't love israel enough. you know that. you know that. a lot of you in the real estate business because i know you very well. you're brutal killers. not nice people at all, but you have to vote for them, you have no choice. you're not going to vote for pocahontas, i can tell you that. you're not going to vote for the wealth tax! >> on the campaign trail back in 2015, trump told a group of jewish republicans, quote, you are not going to support me because i don't want your money. the jewish democratic council of america released a statement on this latest incident saying, we strongly denounce these vile and bigoted remarks in which the president once again used anti-semitic stereotypes to characterize jews as driven by money and insufficiently tloil israel. donny. >> how disgusting and vile, obviously, as a jewish man how

dare you tell me that i'm supposed to be loyal to you. how dare you. we use the word biss bigot, racist, you are anti-semitic in the most biggest way. they say he's good for israel. there's no president in my life thi time that has done anything more than him handing over syria to russia. israel became infinitely less safe in with that move. he's good for donald trump. he's anti-semitic and as a jewish man, i am offended. do not tell me who i can and cannot be loyal to. >> this is just of the latest example. there was also a moment during the campaign where he had the star of david imagery of hillary clinton. others drew criticism for being anti-semitic. he's inoculated himself because of his son-in-law jared kushner

and his daughter has converted. he touts his close ties to israel and to netanyahu and does believe that he can win jewish voters, particularly in places like florida in 2020. >> one more thing, he had a h l holocaust survivor and he was telling a joke to him. >> the they have done more to weaken israel. >> and how does that work out for everybody? >> i think in some twisted way donald trump doesn't mind us going after him right now saying he's anti-semitic because i think he thinks that plays to another part of his base that he's looking to appease. it is a horrible thing. and as someone who has -- her father was first generation for middling, my mother was jewish, they taught me it's good to be loyal to this country and support israel, yes, but for droufrp say how much they should support a country based on their

faith is just atrocious and offensive. >> up next, 2019 might be coming to an end, but not the drama driving american politics. the economy and culture. economist pulls out its crystal ball for what's to come in the new year. editor daniel franklin gives the magazine's newest forecast. that's next on "morning joe." magazine's newest forecast. that's next on "morning joe." (client's voice) remember that degree you got in taxation?

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some things are too important to do yourself. ♪ get customized security with 24/7 monitoring from xfinity home. awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. simple. easy. awesome. call, click or visit a store today. a new report this morning, a confidential trove of government documents suggests that senior u.s. officials, quote, failed to tell the truth about the war in afghanistan throughout the 18, year campaign making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become

unwinnable. the documents which include 2000 pages of previously unpublished notes of interviews with those who played a direct role in the war obtained by the "washington post" arose out of a federal probe into the project of u.s. history. the paper won the release of a documents after a three-year freedom of information act battle. nbc now has not been able to independently verify the findings. again there are is the "washington post." the post reports that the vast array of interviews underscore how three presidents, george w. bush, barack obama, and donald trump and their military commanders have been unable to deliver on their promises to prevail in afghanistan. u.s. officials acknowledge that therethe their war-fighting strategies were flawed and that washington

wasted enormous sums of money trying to make afghanistan into a modern nation. the paper also reports several of those interviews described explicit and sustained efforts by the u.s. government to deliberately mislead the public. they said it was common at the military headquarters in kabul and at the white house to distort statistics to make it apeter united states w appear the u.s. was winning the war when this was not the case. here's an insight from one of the reporters that offered their unvarnished opinion of what went wrong in afghanistan. we were devoid of a fundamental understanding of afghanistan. we didn't know what we were doing. that from -- in 2015 interview with douglas looua three-star g the post reports that since 2001

the defense department, state department, and u.s. agency for international development have spent or appropriated nearly $1 trillion not including money spent by agencies on medical care for wounded veterans. in that same time frame, more than three quarters of a million u.s. troops have deployed to afghanistan. of those, 2,300 died there and over 20,000 were wounded in action, according to defense department figures. we're going to talk more about this ahead with member of the armed services committee, senator kirsten gillibrand. but real quick, jonathan lemire, your reaction to this report? >> it's staggering in scope the work of "the washington post" to get these papers and this is the pentagon papers of the afghanistan war and it shows a consistent pattern as we're going through it now from three administrations misleading the public in terms of how things were going in afghanistan. >> what a mess it. >> what a necessary was and how

unwinnable it was, that the objectives of the military commanders and the white house said could be obtained seems like they couldn't be. and the efforts not be honest with the public in particular, those young men and women going over there to serve our country, i think we'll have a lot of questions in the days ahead. >> we'll talk more about this straight ahead. now to our next guest joining us now diplomatic editor of the economist, daniel franklin. he's the editor of their standalone magazine now in its 30 fourth year inentitlentitled world in 2020. what forecasts a sure to be hectic year. you have 12 themes, and number one is it's judgment time. >> it's the u.s. election, judgment on donald trump, but also in other areas as well. the british finally will get to decide whether they do brexit or not. there's an election just in a few days' time. but i think the main saga

running through the year will be the american election. the whole world will, of course, be watching. >> and in this special issue, do you prague nost indicate what's going to happen? >> we had an interview with an artificial intelligence and the ai who doesn't really know what he's talking about, but it predicts donald trump will lose. >> all right. okay. >> so beyond the u.s. elections and the fate of brexit. highlight another spot or two around the globe that we should be watching. around the globe that we should be watching. aiming for what doesn't sound terribly dramatic, moderate prosperity. it ames to have achieved that by the end of 2020. that was a target it set back in 2012. so they will try to portray this as a landmark for china, but they have all of their problems starting actually in january with anua election in taiwan,

which is highly influenced by what's going to be -- what has been happening in hong kong. >> number five on there is a scary one, proliferation of nukes. tell us how frightened we should be. >> i think we're in a bad way. in 2020, we have the nuclear nonproliferation treaty has its review conference in the spring, that happens every five years. and really, all the nuclear agreements that we've hadl ove the years have either disappeared or are fraying at the edges. the one that is sort of in peril at the moment is the new start treaty. and you have nuclear powers not doing what their side of the bargain is maintaeant to do, whs to limit nuclear weapons. and you have the non-nuclear powers who are saying, well, if some of them, anyway, if you're not doing your part of the bargain, keeping your part of the bargain, we might be interested in getting nuclear weapons, too. so this whole regime, which we've sort of taken for granted over decades, and next year will be the 75th anniversary of the actual bombs on hiroshima and

nagasaki, it's a dangerous moment and we should be worried about it. >> and while we should be worried about it, i want a to te a hard turn. it's going to be a big year for sports. >> there's fun stuff, r too. >> while the nukes are raining down on us -- >> yeah, we have the olympic games. a great opportunity for japan to present itself to the world. it'sen still the third biggest economy and it's had a very successful rugby world cup. not a big sport here in america. it was a bighe deal, it did ver well. and you have new sports at the olympics, karate, skateboarding, rock climbing, surfing, so there's a lot to enjoy there. and if you're a football fan, soccer fan, you palaalso have e 2020 as well. >> and eight missions to mars. and number nine, tech has both highs and lows. there's going to be a lot going on in terms of calling tech companies out.

>> well, those are the lows. tech is very much in the crosshairs, i think, and especially in an election year. we highlight possibly the focus -- more focus should be on instagram, as a possible area where -- which might be vulnerable to manipulation. but i think also, there's fun stuff always in tech and flying cars or flying taxes. this is a technology whose time seemsch to be coming. several companies are preparing to launch products, because the batteries are good enough and theba materials are light enoug now to do it. >> let's stayno there. flying taxis, particularly in the holiday season. with traffic, we can use all the help we can get. so the technology is there, but in terms of practice, what are these going to look like? how could they work? when will your average customer actually might be table to hail a flying taxi? >> i think you might be able to do a few in very fixed-to-fixed point area. they'll look remarkably like drones, but with the ability to have a person in them. and some of them are trying to

flow literally below the regulatory radar by being designated as things that don't need regulating as aircraft. you could be a little bit worried about whether these things will be whizing around manhattan, but i don't think that's until 2020. >> would you get into a flying taxi? >> not one of them. >> we'll be reading the latest issue of "the economist," the world in 2020. david franklin, thank you very much for being on this morning. ahead, we're just about an hour away from what's expected to be the last impeachment hearinghe before democrats introduce formal charges. mark leibovich takes us behind the scenes of this weekend's preparations on the hill. and we already know what the president was doing, frantically tweeting and re-tweeting, over and over again. oh, my goodness. more than 100 times yesterday alone. and he was also focused on this. >> you turn on the faucet, you don't get any water.

>> these showers are horrible! >> yours go into a new buildingr a new house or a new home and you have standards, they don't get water. >> there's d no pressure! i can't get the shampoo out of my hair! >> me either! >> they take a shower and water comes dripping out. it's dripping out, very quietly dripping out. >> if i don't have a good shower, i am not myself. i feel weak and ineeffectual. >> you can't wash your hands, practically, so little water comes out of the faucet. >> i've got to find another shower! >> they have so much water that comes down, it's called rain. o comes down, it's called rain (children playing) ♪ (music building) experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment.

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do you believe ukraine meddled in the american election in 2016? >> i do. and i think there's considerable evidence. >> you do? >> because russia interfered, the media pretends nobody else did. ukraine blatantly interfered in our election. >> this is a fictional narrative that is being perpetrated and propagated by the russian security services themselves. right now, russia's security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. we are running out of time to stop them. and the cost of this investigation, i would ask that you please not promote political politically driven falsehoods. >> ted cruz could learn something from fiona hill, obviously. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday. >> no. >> he can't? >> he just can't. the thing is, all 17 u.s. intel

agencies have told senators like ted cruz that that's a lie. they've all said that russia has interfered and that ukraine hasn't. and in fact, ted cruz and other senators were warned not to repeat this russian propaganda. don't repeat the propaganda from an ex-kgb agent. and that's exactly what he did. >> so it's not that he can't, it's that he won't. with us we have -- >> he is willfully choosing. >> that's correct. he is willfully choosing to ignore our intel leaders and the intel community. he's willingly choosing to ignore the united states military. he's willfully choosing to ignore what he's heard even from the heads of homeland security. and he's willfully ignoring the warnings from america's own intelligence professionals that donald trump appointed, by the way, who say this is russian propaganda. please do not push it.

and ted cruz from texas, has decided he would rather be putin's puppet if that's what he needs to be, to support donald trump right now. >> it's sickening. it is a strange legacy to attach to yourself, but he has done it. >> with us we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan la mmir. donny deutsch is here as well. republican strategist and msnbc political analyst, susan del percio, and host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton joins us. so we have such a big day ahead of us, joe. >> we really do. we really do. and mika, we could talk about impeachment, of course -- >> we have to. there's so much going on. >> we're going to find out this week what the ig has said. it's going to blow apart donald trump suggesting that barack obama was crawling around in his office space at trump tower and tapping phones. it's going to -- the ig is going to blow apart so many

theorieses. we could talk about that. we could talk about that fact that north korea now is openly insulting donald trump as a dumb old man or whatever words they use. we could talk about -- there's so much. but i think donald trump, this weekend, spoke for us all. >> yeah. >> i really did. and i have no problem admitting this. i think he spoke for us all when he talked about the single issue that is most pressing to our great republic at this time. take a look. we have a situation where we're looking very strongly at sinks and showers and other elements of bathrooms, where you turn the faucet on in areas where there's tremendous amounts of water, where the water rushes out to sea because you could never handle it, and you don't get any water. you turn on the faucet and you don't get any water. they take a shower and water comes dripping out. it's dripping out very quietly

dripping out. people are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times as opposed to once. they end up using more water. so epa is looking into that very strongly at my suggestion. you go into a new building or a new house or a new home and they have standards, where you can't get water. you can't wash your hands, practically, so little water comes out of the faucet. and the end result is you leave the faucet on and it takes you much longer to wash your hands. you end up using the same amount of water. we're looking very seriously at opening up the standard. there might be some areas where we'll go the other route. desert areas. but for the most part, you have many states where they have so much water that it comes down -- it's called rain, that they don't know what to do with it. so we'll be opening up that, i believe. >> the czar of toilets soon to be appointed. you know, jonathan lamir, i

always thought it was so romantic and we like to idealize our presidents. you know, kennedy had robert frost read for him at the 1960 inauguration. and it really, i thought, it set the mood for camelot. here you have the president of the united states quoting edgar allen poe in the middle of just a very pedestrian news conference at the white house. the water comes dripping out. >> oh, my god. >> it's dripping out very quietly, dripping out. lamir, what say you? >> joe, i try to think of myself as i ask questions for a living. i never thought to ask the president how many times it takes him to flush the toilet. 10, 15 times. >> it takes him 15 times, jonathan! >> that's a lot of flushing. >> he seems to have really identified the central issue of our age as we move forward with impeachment in the ig reports foreign policy crisis. but apparently it's the low flush toilets that are first

chief on his mind. >> what's wrong with him? >> we're not really sure where this came from. we asked the white house if perhaps they were having issues with the plumbing in the building. it is an older one. it's undergone some renovations lately and maybe it's the sunk or the showers. perhaps the president is harkening back to his time as a developer and maybe at trump tower, they have high-flush powerful toilets, but we'll keep asking, joe. we'll pursue this. don't you worry. >> is he serious? >> yeah, he had the type of toilets, i guess, where you could like flush it -- put a cinder block in and it would break it up. i don't know what he's talking about, donny deutsche. but i think when he's talking about flushing 10 or 15 times, this is one more example of everything the president saying either a projection or a confession. >> oh, my god. >> yeah, i'm going to pause here, because there's so many ways to go with this. first of all, he's probably talking about doral or mar-a-lago or any of those crappy properties. >> a lot of bedbugs at doral, by

the way. >> yeah, bedbugs -- they're like bed roaches. not even like bedbugs, they're like big. >> no, they're bedbugs. i saw that guy's back at doral after he went to doral. >> when he sued. >> bedbugs just all over the place. >> you know, that's cuckoo for cocoa puffs. that's a crazy person. really, if you were going to get a therapist in to look at that and that drift and that mind and where he was going, that's not a well man. we kind of laugh, if we looked at that, if that was uncle joe, i don't mean uncle biden or louis, you'd call the internist and say, should we get him checked? because that's a mind that's not right. >> all right. it's called rain. let's move on. it's expected to be another consequential week in the impeachment investigation, 9:00 a.m. democratic investigators will

present the evidence they've uncovered to house judiciary committee. and for republicans, we'll have another chance to refute it. chairman jerry nadler says he expects the committee to introduce articles of impeachment by the end of this week. a track that could have the president impeached by christmas. >> we have a very rock solid case. i think the case we have, if presented to a jury, would be a guilty verdict in about three minutes flat. >> while the white house that has declined an invitation to participate in the hearing, the president appears consumed by the issue. tweeting and retweeting more than 100 times since yesterday, mostly, about impeachment. meanwhile, republican ted cruz of texas is the latest republican to advance the russia-promoted debunked theory that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. here he is, painfully on "meet the press" yesterday. >> do you believe ukraine meddled in the american election in 2016?

>> i do. and i think there's considerable evidence. >> you do? you do -- >> and chuck, let me say -- >> this is -- senator, this sort of strikes me as odd. because, you went through a primary campaign with this president. he launched a birtherism campaign against you, he went after your faith, he threatened to, quote, spill the beans about your wife about something, he pushed a "national enquirer" story, which we now know he had a real relationship with -- >> and i appreciate you dragging up all of that garbage. it's very kind. >> let me ask you this, is it not possible that this president is capable of creating a false narrative about somebody in order to help him politically? >> ha-ha. except that's not what happened. the president released the transcript of the phone call. you can read what was said on the phone call. >> yeah, and the bidens and you -- you yourself thought the biden part was troubling. >> chuck, chuck -- chuck, let me point out a game that the media is playing. you know, a question that you've asked a number of people. is you've said to senators, sort

of aghast, do you believe that ukraine and not russia interfered in the election? now, that in a court of law would be struck as a misleading question. of course russia interfered in our election. nobody looking at the evidence disputes that. >> the president of the united states does. >> but what you're pretending is -- look, no -- on the evidence, russia clearly interfered in our election. but here's the game the media is playing. because russia interfered, the media pretends nobody else did. ukraine blatantly interfered in our election. the sitting ambassador from ukraine wrote an op-ed blasting donald trump -- >> and there we go. it's all the same. he -- you know, he's now attacking the media. this is what the media likes to play. this is the game the media likes to play. and if they did in a court of law, the judge would strike it as a misleading question. no, because the counselor who asked the question would say, well, your honor, we can take judicial notice of this, because

this is what the united states intelligence agencies, all 17 of them have said. mr. cruz himself was warned by the intel agency to not pass along the russian propaganda. to not pass along the lie that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. because, rev, the united states intelligence agencies specifically said that was a lie. and it was a lie that was being pushed by an ex-kgb agent as russian propaganda. and that they had been doing it, quote, for several years. and yet, ted cruz, he knows this to be true. he knows that he's spouting russian propaganda. and yet he willfully and arrogantly pushes russian propaganda against a guy who lied repeatedly about him during the 2020 campaign and ends up, poor guy, it's the last refuge of the truly desperate, ends up

attacking the media for repeating the words of america's intelligence agencies. >> last refuge for the truly desperate, i think that is the phrase that needs to be coined here. when you look at the fact that this has been totally debunked and that you're going to feed into this against ukraine at a time that your president, who you're supporting, senator cruz, has held back military aid to ukraine. i mean, this is the double whammy. not only am i going to extort you, i'm going to blame you for a fantasy that you had nothing to do with to protect the one that you were being protected for by the aid. i mean, if i was ukraine, i would be protesting in front of the white house. one, i didn't get the aid, two to one, i need the aid to defend myself against is one interfering with the election. and three, i'm going to be blamed for being interfered with the election by somebody whose

daddy and everybody else was lied on by this president. and he sits up there and defends the president that disparaged his daddy, other members of his family, and he himself. if that is not political desperation and if that is not people bowing to donald trump, i don't know what is. it's no wonder trump is in this fantasy world that he's a ruler when you have people that you have absolutely disparaged sitting up on national television, making a political imbecile out of themselves. >> still ahead on "morning joe," how rudy giuliani led donald trump to the brink of impeachment. we'll break down that unusual relationship and what it means for the serious challenges facing both of them. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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president trump said over the weekend that his personal attorney rudy giuliani wants to deliver information he's gathered on ukraine to congress and attorney general william barr. the president told reporters that giuliani hasn't told him what information he's found yet, but he's heard there's a lot to go through. >> well, i just know he came back from someplace and he's going to make a report, i think, to the attorney general and to congress. he says he has a lot of good information. i have not spoken to him about that information. but rudy, as you know, has been one of the great crime fighters of the last 50 years. he has not told he what he's found, but i think he wants to go before congress and say, and also to the attorney general and to the department of justice. i hear he's found plenty. >> nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker asked giuliani about trump's comments and whether he intends to give information to the

attorney general and lawmakers. giuliani texted back, all my conversations are privileged and he can disclose what he's comfortable with. i'm in process of still analyzing what i've received. meanwhile, "the washington post" is reporting that during several conversations in recent months, attorney general william barr has counseled president trump in general terms that giuliani has become a liability and a problem for the administration. that's according to multiple people familiar with the conversations. in one discussion, attorney general barr warned trump that he was not being well-served by his lawyer. officials tell "the post" that white house aides feared giuliani has used his role as the president's lawyer to promote the interests of private clients, fretting that they do not know who he represents. giuliani says his conversations with trump are protected by attorney/client privilege. "the post" notes that former

white house chief of staff john kelly tried to limit giuliani's reach, scheduling his meetings with trump at the white house residence, so he would not interact with other white house staff. former administration officials say kelly also told others he did not want to be part of calls or meetings with giuliani. the justice department and the white house both declined to comment on "the post" reporting. giuliani did not respond to multiple calls and messages and his lawyer declined to comment as well. joe? >> well, jonathan lamir, mike lubeka say these guys, giuliani and trump, are like the sunshine boys but they're not trying to be funny. this quote from trump, he just got put back from some place. i haven't talked about him what he found at some place, but he just got back from some place, and giuliani going all over

ukraine trying to do god knows what at a time when trump is being impeached, goes giuliani trying to do what he did the last time he was there. lots of reports this weekend, coming from the white house, about not just the attorney general, but also a lot of white house insiders, very concerned by just how reckless rudy giuliani is still being. >> right. attorney general barr is far from alone. there are officials in the justice department, officials in the state department officials if the west wing who have all expressed great concern about giuliani's actions, from earlier this year, that they believe helped walk president trump up to the brink of impeachment, and now that he's still there. intalked to someone over the weekend who literally said that they could not -- they thought i was joking when i went to them and said, oh, did you hear giuliani is back in ukraine. and a person close to the president, like, almost could not believe their ears. that he would go back there to stir up more trouble. even though giuliani, of course, is suggesting that he's going to find evidence to exonerate the

president. that he would perhaps find more damaging information about the bidens. of course, biden has not been charged with any wrongdoing in any matter in the ukraine. but this is something that people around the president are very anxious about. they feel like giuliani is someone who is desperate for the spotlight. he is someone who was passed over for a cabinet position, a fierce advocate for the president of the united states. could have received a lesser cabinet position. homeland security was bandied about. he chose not to. he ended up with no post whatsoever and reinvented himself as the president's personal attorney, first for the mueller probe and now this matter. but there are people around trump who are urging him to cast giuliani side, but at this point, at least for now, at least at this point, he likes giuliani as an attack dog, likes him being out there defending him in the media and is still willing to support him. >> coming up in the house intel committee, congressman jim himes joins the conversation. "morning joe" is back in a

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joining us now, a member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman, jim himes of connecticut. good to have you on this morning. joe has the first question. joe? >> hey, congressman, thanks so much for being with us. i want to ask you what we're going to be hearing about later today. but let's back up just a little bit. i am curious if there's any talk inside the democratic conference about perhaps slowing down a bit, expanding out this impeachment inquiry. i know the thought originally was, let's move fast. it's an open and closed case. we may get some republicans onboard here, but i mean, they've taken to spouting vladimir putin's talking points, russian propaganda, so why don't democrats take their time, expand it, and leave a record for history about how donald trump just may be the most corrupt president in the history of this republic? >> yeah, well, joe, there's a couple of answers to that. number one, you know, you were never going to get to a point

where you had everything that you wanted, particularly. and remember, this is not our issue. particularly when the president has said, i will not cooperate, my people will not cooperate, they will not produce e-mails, they will not produce documents. that makes an investigation hard. there's no reason to believe, and remember, it took us four months to get a court to say that don mcgahn needs to show up. and that decision is being appealed. there's no reason to believe that if we went that route, that donald trump wouldn't play this out for, you know, four, five, six, you know, a year. and, of course, the key point here, joe, is that as you've said, the evidence is really very clear now about the abuse of power. and certainly about the contempt of congress, involved in what i was just talking about. saying, i don't like this impeachment, so i'm not going to cooperate. that obviously, in and of itself, is clearly a fact and an impeachable offense. >> congressman, we have the second judiciary committee hearing today. can you walk us through a little bit, as to what we should expect to hear. you know, the white house has

declined to participate yet again. what do you think americans who are perhaps confused by some of what the hearing last week, with some of the scholars. what do you think they're going to hear today that's going to perhaps change their mind and enforce why democrats need to move forward with us. >> yeah, so today is going to be about the facts. the last hearing last week was a bunch of experts on constitutional law, talking about what does impeachment mean, under what circumstances has a president committed an impeachable offense. that's all sort of very abstract and academic. today, you're going to hear from dan goldman and steve castor on the republican side presenting the facts of the report. no surprises, right? because they're not going to present anything that wasn't in the actual report. but members and the counsels of both sides will have an opportunity to ask questions about those facts. my guess is that it's not a terribly good moment for the white house. and that is, of course, why they're not participating. again, because the facts, you know, you can argue about how

bad it is that the president is asking a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent, but the facts are not in dispute. and so, people are going to hear those facts in a way that will bring them to life in the way that a 300-page black and white report does not. >> congressman, thus far, the american public has been witness to a sprawl of evidence that you heard on the intelligence committee, in addition to the mueller report. but putting it all together and thinking about it, how many counts would you like to see in any impeachment proceeding brought against the president? >> well, my guess is that you're going to see at least two. you're going to see abuse of power, which of course, is using that white house meeting, using military, that's not stuff donald trump or any president gets to use. those are the assets of the american public, to try to achieve a narrow personal political goal. investigate joe biden and his son. that's abuse of power, full stop. the second one, and i feel very, very strongly about this one is

what we were talking about before. contempt of congress. and i had this conversation with my republican colleagues all the time. you know, there will be democratic presidents down the road. and do you really want to establish a precedent where the president of the united states says, you know, i don't like this inquiry, so i'm not going to cooperate? you know, you agree to that and you're basically agreeing to the elimination of the checks and balances that are such an important part of our system. now, where it gets interesting and where i think there's going to be a debate and i can't tell you how it comes out is of course, bob mueller, tees up ten counts of obstruction of justice. i think that's a more complicated debate. because, of course, the republicans say, yeah, but mueller didn't -- he may not have found good conduct, all of this meetings with russians and giving polling to russians, but he didn't find indictable conduct, so i think we're probably going to have a debate on that question of a third count. >> member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you, mika. >> we'll see what happens today. coming up, senator kerstin gillibrand is standing by.

the new york democrat joins the table next on "morning joe." rk table next on "morning joe."

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wow. welcome back to "morning joe." 34 past the hour. it's a very foggy day in washington, d.c. and we are pouring the through a new report this morning from "the washington post." a confidential trove of government documents that suggests senior u.s. officials, quote, failed to tell the truth about the war in afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable. the documents -- >> you know -- >> yep? >> mika, it's interesting that we're talking about these documents. i remember having richard holbrooke on the show. >> yep. >> and richard actually strongly

defending the administration line on afghanistan. in fact, being somewhat mocking of our questions about progress being made in afghanistan. and the second the camera turned off, he sort of shook his head and talked about what a miserable experience it was. i mean, we've brought that up before. but this is exactly what's been happening. i mean, the united states government needs to be honest with the american people. this is not a winnable war. this must -- this is more like a situation we've been talking about -- talked about it with dexter filkins, who knows the country as well as any american. >> yes. and spoke out a lot. >> this is more like an issue with south korea. this is more like an issue with germany after world war ii. we're not going to have any grand declaration of victory. this is a situation where we may have to have a presence there, even if it's a small presence,

for some time. but there will be no victory. >> the documents, which include 2,000 pages of previously unpublished notes of interviews with those who played a direct role in the war obtained by "the washington post" arose out of a federal project examining the failure of the longest armed conflict in u.s. history. the paper won the release of the documents after a three-year freedom of information act battle. nbc news has not been able to independently verify the findings. "the washington post" reports that the vast array of interviews underscore how three presidents, george w. bush, barack obama, and donald trump and their military commanders have been unable to deliver on their promises to prevail in afghanistan. u.s. officials acknowledged that their war-fighting strategies were fatally flawed and that the -- and that washington wasted enormous sums of money trying to remake afghanistan

into a modern nation. the paper also reports, quote, several of those interviewed described explicit and sustained efforts by the u.s. government to deliberately mislead the public. they said it was common at military headquarters in kabul and at the white house to distort statistics to make it appear the united states was winning the war when that was not the case. and joining us now, a member of the armed services committee, democratic senator kir stin jst gillibrand of new york. she recently introduced legislation that would ensure that no authorizations for the use of military force, such as the one passed in 2001, to authorize military action against september 11th terrorists hiding in afghanistan is used to continue unauthorized so-called forever wars. and joe, wow, the timing of this conversation couldn't be more

perfect, given "the washington post" report. >> senator, let's get your reaction to "the washington post" report. and do you believe that the report suggests, like others have suggested, that it is time to bring all military troops home from afghanistan? >> well, i have serious concerns. i just got back from afghanistan and i was able to meet with the troops on the ground, as well as our commanders, and as you know, joe, terrorism continues to metastasize. afghanistan has so many issues. it has cade, it has isis k, it has the issue with the taliban and whether there will be a negotiation and whether they will join the government. so those are complex issues that are going to be very hard to solve and is up to the afghan people. my war powers reform resolution is designed to put the power about declaring war back into the hands of congress, as our founders intended and as the constitution dictates. and what i believe is that we have had an authorization since

2001 to be in afghanistan and congress passed that authorization weeks after 9/11, when the smoke was still smoldering from ground zero. and that authorization and the one in 2002 have been used to go into 20 countries, to fight very different missions against very different adversaries. so what my reform would simply do is say, you've got to name your adversary, you've got to name your country, and you get two years. and if you want more funds and if you want more support from the american people, you have to go back to their representatives, congress, to get that authorization. it sounds like a very good idea. what's the likelihood of passage? >> right now, i'm going to work on a bipartisan basis to find support for this kind of really pulling back of our authorities. we've given it to the last two presidents, three presidents, and i don't think that forever

wars is something that the american people have signed up for. certainly, our troops are making sacrifice after sacrifice after sacrifice. the war in afghanistan, the war in iraq, thousands of members of our service members have died, as well as tens of thousands of civilians and people who live in those countries. >> yeah, well, you know, if they had -- if the authorization had to be vote on by congress, it would require republican or democratic administrations now and in the future to justify the continuing of a military presence there. so let me go back to the first question. because you bring up such a salient fact, in that it is very conflicted in afghanistan. as we saw in iraq, just pulling up the stakes and leaving overnight creates a lot of unintended consequences. so what is your recommendation as we move forward? is it to pull troops out?

is it to keep a small force there? what's our best way forward in afghanistan? >> i believe that we should work with our allies to have a multi-lateral approach towards supporting the afghan military. i was able to meet with afghan military members, as well as afghan police that were being trained by our troops. women have joined by the afghan military and the afghan police force, which is extraordinary. so our leadership and our support there is helping that country stabilize, it's helping them be able to take their security in their own hands. but i do not believe we need a long-term deployment of large numbers of troops on the ground. we have the most nimble force. we can reach any place in the world, particularly to do anti-terrorism missions, as needed. but we do not need a long-term commitment there. and if any commitment is there long-term, it must be multi-national. >> mike? >> so, senator, this story in

"the washington post" today, is striking. but it's not new, it's not a new phenomenon. i mean, once again, we are involved in a country like vietnam, where we don't know the country, we don't know the culture, we don't know the people. and it's playing itself all over again. but i would submit that the real story of afghanistan today is not in afghanistan, it's at gravesides here in the united states of america and within the veterans' administration. so i don't mean to put you on the spot. you're a single elected official. what do you say to someone who comes up to you and says, what do you tell me about my son or daughter who died in afghanistan? did they -- was it for nothing? >> they certainly did not die in vain, because they were asked to go on a mission to defend our country and defeat terrorism. those were very important missions. those missions are important today as they ever were. terrorism continues to grow and metastasize worldwide.

but we know now, very clearly, that the way to defeat terrorism is not large deployments of troops that stay on the ground for decades. that is not the most effective way to defeat terrorism. and so the reason why i have this war powers reform resolution is because we shouldn't have forever wars. we shouldn't have deployed troops for 18 straight years without coming back to congress. so when i meet men and women who are dedicating their lives today to these very missions, when i was meeting with the soldiers from ft. drum, the most deployed force in the army is in new york state at ft. drum, these young men and women, i met about a dozen, more than half, this was their first deployment. four or five o, they'd been the, this is their third, fourth, fifth deployment. our men and women will take any mission we ask of them. they are brave, they are courageous, they are fearless and defeating terrorism is hard. but again, we should be using the enormous talent and flexibility that our armed services have to do much more

targeted missions, to do antiterrorism aggressively, but not have long, on the ground deployments. because it's very difficult. when i went to afghanistan, maybe eight years ago, with john mccain and lindsey graham, we were holding totally different areas of afghanistan. those areas today, we have no presence in. the taliban controls them completely. so we have changed our mission every few years to deal with the immediate threat and as we know, those troops should be coming home. we do not and should not have the authority to have a long-term endless war without the american people supporting. and i do believe, mika, as you asked, if we had a vote today, it would not authorize this massive deployment. >> senator, switching gears. we're just a few minutes away from the next impeachment hearing. there's going to be a presentation of evidence. the democrats are going to provide evidence as to why they think the president should be impeached. you, of course, would be a juror, were he to be impeached, we would go to a trial. i want to ask what your verdict would be. but can you assess what you've

heard so far in terms of witness testimony and evidence as to what you think has happened? >> i of course, have been following what they've been doing in the house, as most new yorkers have done. and i can say the allegations are deeply troubling and deeply concerning. we have allegations that the president essentially was soliciting a bribe from a foreign leader against a political adversary. for them to investigate a political adversary for his own political benefit. that, i think, is illegal and grounds for an impeachment count. the house will make their decision, which is the same as an indictment in a criminal process. those articles of impeachment will come to the senate. we will listen to all the testimony and then we will make a decision about whether to convict. >> just following up on that, what sort of trial do you want to see? senate majority leader mcconnell is still working through the mechanics of it. do you think this is something that should be dispatched with in a week or two or do you think it needs to be longer than that? >> i think it should be deliberate and careful.

these allegations are serious and it should be taken seriously. i expect my republican colleagues to do their congressional duty, listen, and fairly judge the evidence. >> quick question about what happened at pensacola naval over the weekend. what are we going to do about saudi arabia? >> well, obviously, our president will not hold saudi arabia accountable. he immediately defended and i think this should be fully investigated. i would like to have a hearing in the armed services committee in the senate on this very issue. i am very concerned that we have this program where saudis are coming to america, training. but that some are still being radicalized and committing terrorist attacks. >> there's something to be dealt with there. >> it is very concerning. and as the senator from new york, i'm reminded of 9/11 and how the saudi hijackers were trained in america. i'm deeply concerned about whether we know the facts and what happened. i would like to have a full hearing in the armed services committee. >> all right. while we're at it, you are relaunching off the sidelines,

which is a call to action to american women and girls to become more involved in politics. i want to hear about that. but along the same lines, will you be endorsing a 2020 candidate? and might it be a woman? >> i will be endorsing. i hope to endorse by the new york primary. and i'm really proud of the fact that we had six women run for president among the democrats. >> it's amazing. i love it. >> it was very inspiring and exciting for me to be part of. but i'm really looking forward to helping not only our nominee, but flip the senate. the reason why i relaunched "off the sidelines" is because we have real work to do. from my perspective, i want to flip the u.s. senate. i want to hold the house so we can actually govern if we do win the white house in 2020, which i hope we do. >> speaking of the race, though, your own campaign ended a few weeks ago. your senate colleague, kamala harris has ended her campaign last week. another senate colleague, cory booker, has yet to qualify for the next debate. there's real concerns about a lack of diversity.

that there may not be a candidate of color on stage, except for andrew yang, who says he has qualified, but has not officially done so yet. but at the same time, we have michael bloomberg, who you know as a new yorker, has now entered the race and has spent $35 or more million already. is that concerning to you, that some of you and your senate colleagues are not able to stay in and potentially compete to that level while he can come in with his billions and do so? >> well, two issues. i think anybody who wants to run should run. i think diversity in our party is great. i think having the extraordinary talent in this field is exciting for me. but i do think there's an issue with money and politics. and one of the issues that i ran on was getting money out of politics. actually having publicly funded elections, as a way to change who has power in washington. as we all know, washington is largely bought and paid for. so much money pours into campaigns from special intere interests, powerful interests. and so the wealthy and large companies that spent a lot of money on lobbying have an outsized influence. their voice is just louder than

everyone else's. and i don't think that's what our founders intended. so i'm going to work very hard in the senate to find bipartisan support for real reform, democracy dollars. actually letting people invest in campaigns and having full publicly financed elections, so that you can get to the rot and the corruption at the heart of washington. >> senator kirsten gillibrand, thank you very much for everything that you're doing. and happy birthday. >> oh! >> thank you. >> 53 today! >> cool. very cool. happy birthday. >> thank you. >> kirsten gillibrand. all right. today marks another key moment in the impeachment push. investigateers will present evidence to the house judiciary committee and republicans will have another chance to refute it.e the white house declined a invitation and opting instead to

make the case for acquittal in the senate. joining us now, mark levovitch. his behind the scenes investigation looks at the investigation. and shannon petty is talking about how trump is checking clinton'sck impeachment playboo. and matt miller whose recent column is how to win a mess an war, be bold, clear, and swift. mueller wasn't, shift was. >> first, before we get impeachment i want to quickly talk to you about the washington postab report on afghanistan an the lies over the past 18 and 19 years. this is sadly not really shocking that we have not made greatma progress in afghanistan.

we heard from many people when we went into investigation, they were never able to tame that land. i wonder whether or not the mistake our leaders made was not setting expectations at a realistic level to say we will never have a signing on the missouri, but we just may stop the next terror attack against new york, tawashington, or midd america. >> that was the expectation. that was the paramount issue for everyone in washington and around the i rest of america foa few years. that was the initial expectation, it was a very popular war originally, and then look other things happened. iraq happened, we had a new president in 2008, and then this

thing was still there and trump has been pretty open about his desire to end this, but he has not reallybu done that much, either. it has just been a lingering thing not at the forefront of attention for awhile, and the expectations were that now, and several years ago, and presidents ago, and you know how fast these things move. >> matt miller, let's move you from afghanistan to impeachment now and just ask you, have the democrats narrowed their scope too much? there isna an fec violation, th breaking ofol a federal law. if you look at the president's payment to a porn star right before the 2016 election. there are ten instances of where the president most likely obstructed justice laid out neatly. there is one example of another of the president violating the

emoluments clause. making himself richer through public service. should the democrats slow down, take their time, and expand this impeachment inquiry? >> i think that is a very hard question. and the reason they kept this narrowly focused is at the beginning they thought there was a chance at removing donald trump. rewind to two months ago when they really looked uncertain in their defense of him. they were focused on an inquiry and building a set of evidence easiest to sell. and i think that was the right decision. if you look where we are today, republicans seem very unlikely to break. if you were to put on a partisan hat and say what is the way we can best keep donald trump pinned down. you know your best chance is p

subpoenaing witnesses. what the answer needs to be is when this senate trial happens in january or february, that has to be thebr beginning of aggressive oversight, not the end. if she acquhe is acquitted in t senate, it can't go back to the months before where they flaunted subpoenas and ignored oversight. there has to be an aggressive push like the push we have seen inpu the last few months that holds the president accountable for some of these issues that you raised. >> youyo mentioned when republicans were more shaky like when lindsey graham said if there were evidence of a quid pro quo put forward, then lindsey t would be deeply deepl disturb disturbed.

>> he seems less disturbed these days, joe. and you're right there was a moment when this first sort of broke in late september. we were at the you yiunited nations. and some did seem rattled by this. largely they have fallen in line and given them a lot of confidence. so let's talk about the white house forso a moment and their strategy right now. and people close to the president told me and you that i'm certain they feel like they have a similar narrative and perhaps see his popularity surge.po some of that was looking like he was staying above the fray, how does that contrast with what donald trump is doing. >> the circumstances around the

clinton impeachment, it is two chides of the clinton impeachment, there was two things here did that really held him weather that and come out with a spike in popularity and a backlash against republicans, and a key thing was looking presidential, looking like he was hard at work for the american people. he rarely talked about impeachment, the white house sent him around the country and president trump tried to look presidential at the nato summit last week, like he is busy meeting with world leaders on the world stage, but even in those moments he is unable to avoid getting into the impeachment afraid. he called schiff a maniac and a deranged person. clinton also apologized for his affair andgi asked for forgivens and that he would repent for his

sins. trump meanwhile continued to insist this is a perfect call. he said more than 200 times this was a perfect call and he did nothing t wrong. clinton hadth a war room. the presidenta is still facing and internal white house battle over who is involved. so a lot of differences, they still don't see president trump doing this about three months in now. >> i'm surprised their still using the briefing room, i thought it was storage. you'reit looking at how democra are preparing, a lot of late nights, what are they doing? >> up with thing they're trying toy' do is script this like a weekly ensemble. and they're trying to put on a show and focus as carefully as they can. leave as little to chance as possible. i had one congressman in california say we're trying to a

avoid open mic night. there was a lot of waiting around and deliberation, and what they're hoping to do is the lights will go on in a few minutes and put on this week's version, making a case, and hoping that public opinion might inch up a lit totle to what the argument they'reto trying to ma is. >> paul volker, the fed chairman that really did as much as anybody to shape the modern economy over the past 20 or 30 years passed away. he passed away at the age of 92. and mike, you will remember inflation, the great economic threat. they had buttons that said win,

whip inflation. and in the "new york times," in his obituary that just went on lon -- online. he did it, interest rates went up higher than anyone would have ever expected, but history proved to be on paul volkers side, and think which i for the past 20 or 30 years, much of that is ohhed to bawed to paul . >> he had a quality that is missing greatly and he was involved in politics, and that squault courage. he had the courage of his convictions to do as you just eluded to, interest rates and that period