this morning president trump facing two big battles in congress. a historic vote on two articles of impeachment and the supreme court announcing late friday it will decide if the president can keep his taxes secret. a trial is on the horizon and democrats are debating who will prosecute their case to the senate as president trump picks his defense team, rudy guilani shows up at the white house on the heels of a trip to ukraine. it started as we all know with the president asking for a favor. an investigation into the biden family. jill biden will join me to respond to the attacks and to talk about her husband's campaign. the former federal prosecutor and now msnbc legal analyst and a democratic strategist and former executive director of the new york state democratic party and jeff mason that covers the white house for

reuters. we're says away from a momentous moment. a full vote in the house of representatives on two articles of impeachment. he charged president trump with committing high crimes and misdemeanors. those articles are abuse of power and obstruction of justice but the heart of this is the ukraine scandal and the president using his office to pressure ukraine's government to investigate his political rivals. the first article says the president abused the powers of the presidency by ignoring and injuring national security and other national interests to obtain improper personal political benefit. it continues, he abused his high office to corrupt democratic elections. the second article outlines how president trump concealed that from congress undermining the constitution separation of powers by seeking the right to determine the scope and nature of an impeachment inquiry into his own conduct as well as the prerogative to deny any and all

information to the house. both of the articles made it on a party line vote. 23-17. similar scenarios expected in next week's full house vote. they head to the senate when mitch mcconnell says there's no chance the president is removed. although there may be a strategic reason behind his optimism that may not necessarily be based on factual history. ased on factual history. >> not surprisingly president clinton and the democrats in the senate were coordinating the strategy and on the same side.

i want to get your understanding of how the administration is preparing for this this weekend. >> it's clear that there is coordination there and senator mcconnell confirmed that and the white house has really confirmed that and the president himself by suggesting he's listening to him. he said i wouldn't mind a longer trial because it will show case some things and he wants to see the whistleblower called as a witness. it is controlled by republicans and they don't see any concern about coordinating between the two sides. >> i don't know if you were there yesterday at the white house. >> i missed that one. >> but i want to ask you about the contours of the defense as

we see it shaping up here. trump has slowly fallen back to the case he truly believes in his heart. sessions was too naive and barr too sophisticated. to articulate the ethos that he is entitled to abuse power as he sees fit. what is the defense at this point that the white house is preparing? >> i don't think that's exactly the argument that the president is making but his defense continues to be this was a perfect call. he can ask for investigations if he wants to ask for investigations and as he has said in what has become a refrain, no collusion, no obstruction has become no qu quid quo pro. it's the new catch phrase and part of it is like well, nothing really matters, right? full fidelity to donald trump is

how this works. so if he can keep republicans in line which he has proven that he can do, then, his defense, you know, it doesn't matter much what they say because he's going to be acquitted. >> we're looking forward to trying the likes to which we haven't seen many times before in u.s. history. what does what we saw in the committee room tell us about what is going to happen on the floor of the senate if and when we get to that point? >> it might be less because the fix is already in. mitch mcconnell told us that. this is some good old fashioned soviet style justice where mitch mcconnell when he stands up and says basically, verdict first, trial second we already know the fix is in because when we hear the president say i'll do

anything i want to do. he will do and continues to do anything he wants to do. goodness help us the day after he is acquitted in a senate trial what will he do next? who will he reach out to next. >> that was from the democrats after the two articles of impeachment. he could be doing it now and he could do it again. what happens? if this is a foregone conclusion and the president isn't removed from office. what happens next? i'd love to see ways to tighten the legislation and when i say that, you know and there's a lot of folks that say it will die in

the senate anyway it needs to happen because if he gets acquitted future presidents will go across the line or cross the line with impunity. >> you spent time on capitol hill before you were at the white house and i know you have been watching this debate unfold of how broad these articles of impeachment could be. came up with two at the end here. i was struck by what ralph nader wrote. charges should be broader. trump correctly characterized them as the lightest presidential impeachment accusations and more into centuries. i'll have you respond to the latter part of that. they could have faced a lot more. there could have been obstruction of justice more broadly. not just obstruction of congress. >> he called them low energy. not in those words.

that's where he was going with it. i think that there was a raging debate within the democratic party and within the democratic caucus up on the hill and what they settled on, what nancy pelosi settled on is that they wanted to hold democrats together. if this was going to be a partisan vote which it looks like it's going to be a partisan vote they at least wanted democrats to be united. and by keeping it narrow, they were able to keep democrats together because, you know, there were these moderates that finally tipped and said okay let's proceed. and there's the sense that the judiciary committee with it's articles hints at -- takes a little bit now. >> quickly, what's important to is that the more you charge the more you have to explain. >> i understand. >> and it's still incumbent upon democrats to actually explain to voters why this is very important.

i'm confident that they can do that but the more they charge, the more into the leads they have to get and i think with support already sliding a little bit it's important. i want you to react to that as well. we're seeing 10 obstruction of justice offenses documented in volume 2 of the muller report go completely unaddressed. i understand when we investigate we like to investigate broadly and when we prove up a case in court we like to prove up a case narrowly. stay focused on the most important crimes. i think that's what the house has done. we'll see how that plays out. >> i want to ask you about who is going to be conducting this

defense. what do we know of the role that he was going to play. what does that tell you about who that defense team could be comprised of? >> you're right. they're going to play a key role. they have been working on this for sometime even though the president did not encourage them or ask them to go and provide a defense in the house. so certainly they're going to be the lead on this. the role of giuliani had a question mark around it. we know that he was very recently in ukraine and that the president is interested in hearing what else he has found out there and continues not to worry about the perception of

his personal lawyer going and doing his own biding to find out what has been a debunked theory and they had in some ways colluded with ukraine in 2016. which again the u.s. intelligence agencies have not found. they have found the opposite and found that russia was certainly involved in trying to influence the 2016 election. he is playing this role. a report has been teased. he says he got something for this most recent trip to ukraine. is it anything more than a distracted device from the white house? >> in part, rudy giuliani is updating the president and feeding him this information.

he had a crew with him from one america news which is fox news for people that think that fox news isn't conservative enough or pro-trump enough and he is producing a documentary. so this is part of rudy giuliani's view of what the defense of president trump should be. whether any of this shows up in the senate seems pretty unlikely given that mitch mcconnell is -- if you know the outcome, why would you take the risk of having a robust trial where more information could come out and it could get messy. >> documentary on the senate floor. thank you very much as always. appreciate you joining us from washington. up ahead, jill biden is going to join me on set. but the attorney general says his hand picked investigator will have the last word on the matter. more on that as voters sound off on impeachment ahead of next

week's historic vote in congress. >> i'm nervous to see how that goes but i think it's the right step to make sure that he knows that he has to be held accountable for his actions. >> it's a joke. it's been a waste of $40 million at least of our taxpayers money. they have nothing. they have no proof. have nothin. they have no pofro upbeat music♪ no cover-up spray here. cheaper aerosols can cover up odors in a flowery fog. but febreze air effects eliminates odors. with a 100% natural propellent. it leaves behind a pleasant scent you'll love. [ deep inhale] freshen up. don't cover up. febreze. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures,

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north korea is celebrating a crucial test at its long range rocket launch site days after the country claimed it conducted another quote very important test. no indication of what the test was however that announcement and this news breaking overnight come as the administration continues to say it's pressuring for a number of concessions ahead of an end of the year deadline. white house comments on all of this. >> they have agreed to give court ruling requiring he turnover his financial records including his tax returns. that's right in the middle of the 2020 presidential campaign. that's around what attorney general bill barr says we can expect john durham to deliver his report on a separate investigation into a russia investigation. it's a criminal investigation that could lead to charges. the focus of that investigation is not just on the origins of the russia probe but conduct after donald trump's inauguration.

he faced some questions about that. >> so nothing they could provide altered your offices conclusion that the fbi did not place spies in the trump campaign? >> none of the discussions. >> pete williams did with the attorney general. and what struck me was how many questions the attorney general sta started and the attorney general had. >> well, what i said is their case kept on getting these applications. and these documents falsified.

there was all kinds of with holding of information from court and the question really is, what was the agenda after the election that kept them pressing ahead after their case collapsed. >> so there is one of those rhetorical questions. what was the agenda. your reaction to that, what he to say in that interview. i mentioned that statement from john durham as well saying he disagrees. it's not written yet. the investigation continues but he disagrees with what he understands the findings of the ig would have been. >> and rarely, a thousand former federal prosecutors but i'll bet if you surveyed all of us, we would all say the cardinal sin is to talk about a pending investigation. we don't do it. now do we expect bill bar to do it? of course we do. mueller spent 22 months investigating, issued his report and before bill barr let anybody see it, bill barr stood up and

lied about it to the american people and there after the truth could never catch up so this is what we expect from bill barr. i was surprised that bill barr slipped a little bit and waited for the ig report to come out first announcing the russia investigation was properly opened and then bill barr had to issue press releases and go on air saying i disagree. i disagree. i disagree. i was even more surprised that he issued a report saying i disagree. he shouldn't have said anything. and what we came to learn was he actually spoke with the ig before he was reached his conclusions and what did he tell him? i have nothing that undercuts your conclusions and i agree that a preliminary investigation should have been open. so it looks like even durham is talking out of both sides of his

mouth now. >> we have seen the white house weaponize this or use this. the open ended questions, the fact that this report is going to come out in the coming months. he was like you have to read this thing and then immediately after it comes out even though he describes it in a way that comports with his world view even though it doesn't comport with what it actually said, president trump has now, well, you know, you have to see the durham report. i'm really waiting for the durham report and he's moving the goal post and moving on to the next thing that he hopes will prove the point that he

wants proven. i want to ask you about the supreme court's decision with regard to the president's finances. the justice made it possible for these cases to be heard during the current court term in march with a decision by the end of june just as the general election campaign heats up. we're looking forward to a heck of a summer here. >> yes, we are. but shout out because it seems that not only is the white house and trump pushing back because of what could happen in the election but it -- for the peril that awaits him when he is no longer president of the united

states. we will find out that perhaps he's not as wealthy as he says but his core constituents probably not. but it will be an interesting reveal in the middle of the summer. >> we'll wait for the dog days. house republicans appear unified of their defense of the president but are democrats as closely aligned to impeach him? who gop lawmakers are eyeing that might flip in their favor. r r ♪ do you recall, not long ago ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on

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easily set, track and control your goals right from the chase mobile® app. ♪ ♪ chase. make more of what's yours®. the speaker of the house is confident she has the vote for impeachment she does not have a unified caucus. there are moderates who are on the fence. msnbc is going to introduce us to a few of them. >> well, they have made it out of the judiciary committee and they're going out of the house floor. the vote will vote to impeach president trump or not to impeach him. what did we see on the judiciary committee? a party line vote. 23 democrats. all of them on this side for impeachment, 14 republicans on

this side against impeachment. is that the same dynamic that's going to prevail. one way of looking at this is you look at the republican side. republicans in the house aren't that many that come from democratic friendly districts. only five come from districts that voted for hillary clinton. there's not a lot of pressure to break with trump. on the democratic side it's a different story. 31 here. 31 democratic members of the house. what do they all have in common? they all represent districts that voted for donald trump in 2016. so there are far more democrats in that position. that delicate political position of representing a district that voted for the other party in the presidential election. there's 31 of them.

they are the two that voted against having this impeachment inquiry in the first place. peter s peterson is likely to go that way. you probably have two democrats that are going to vote no on impeachment. the question is about the other 29. one thing that we can say is these other 29 all did vote for the inquiry. for having the impeachment inquiry. so they did take a step in that direction already. so some of these members said buy and large they have been keeping their powder dry. they haven't been saying they are going to have town hall meetings some of them and their district over the weekend.

just because there's so many democrats from trump districts. >> this has been a good week for moderates, has it not? you had the passage of the usmca. defense authorization act. there were things that they can say to illustrate what they have said all along which is we can walk and chew gum at the same time. they can bring something back to the district aside from impeachment. they tried hard to have it and it's still important for them to be able to go to their districts and talk about what they have done in congress but if you look

at some of the employees are done in their positions there's a candidate running in upstate new york. she was the republican celebrity of these hearings. because of the support that folks want to give her in that race. not every democrat is going to experience that across the country. i trust nancy pelosi to provide cover which is why she waited as long. >> lastly, how important is it to have as much in the caucus. you can see the president tweeting about how unified republicans are. we made it through this part of the process. >> the republican talking point coming out of the vote to begin the process was the only bipartisan vote was the one against it because two democrats joined the republicans.

you know, she always wants cohesion and she almost always gets it. and the reason that these articles of impeachment are so narrow is because they're aiming for cohesion. >> we'll leave it there. thank you for all of you. >> coming up, boris johnson is promising to get brexit done and claiming he can do just that. that election piqued the interest of the united states. the foreign secretary is going to join me next. tates. the foreign secretary is going to join me next.

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i want to congratulate boris johnson on a victory. i'm sure people will be thrilled to hear that but a lot of people will be. >> a harbinger of what's to

come. conservatives trounced the labor party. it was an election that was seen as a referendum not only on brexit but on the labor party itself after he was unable to channel his frustrations over a win for his party being mired by reports of anti-semitism and overly aggressive policies they could have had. what's a sign to come in the united states. with me is somebody that might know a thing or two about the uphill battle. that's the former labor mp, now president ceo of irc. we'll get to that in a bit. let me have you react to this and what's happened. i'm curious about your personal reaction. the new york times talks about a radical reconfiguration of the electoral map. >> it's a massive victory. they have eaten up the labor vote in some traditional labor heart lands and small towns that have suffered from deindustrialization. they have hoovered up a lot of

voters. >> vacuumed up for us -- >> vacuumed up. i have only been in new york for six years. they have vacuumed up voters who were looking -- ready to vote for an alternative but were repelled by jeremy corbyn and corbynism. individual policies might be popular but the package would be credible and the more change you want to offer the more credible you have to be in delivering it. that's where the project fundamentally failed. >> how much introspection happens now? how recognizable is it today? >> labor has gone back to the historic role of being the most effective election losing machine in global democratic politics. we have lost four elections in the last nine years having tony blair won three elections in a

row. and after 2010 people didn't appreciate the scale of the defeat. they said it was a victory so we lost. the scale is understood. if you have a majority in the house of commons you can do what you like. there is the political system that you get in america so i think that we're going to see not just a change building environment but more change. >> what does it mean for brexit? as you look at this election, it's about jeremy corbyn and brexit as well. from all i read, i'm sure that it's going to happen. what do these results tell you about this process? . well, the brillance but the appalling nature is they said we'll get brexit done but they

meant only half of brexit. they have a good plan to leave the european union. i wouldn't call it a good plan but a clear plan to leave the european union. they have no plan at all for the future, economic, political security relations between britain and the european union and of course at the heart of this is the difficulties of northern ireland which is if you like the anvil on which this eu settlement is being broken it's a threat to the united kingdom because of course the scots are also saying that they voted to stay in the european union. they don't want to leave the european union so for someone like me that's a proud brit living in new york, i worry a lot about the integrity of the country as well as the shift to the right that's taking place. >> what should we make here in the u.s. of what happened there? you saw at the top there the president trying to draw this analysis that he and his friend boris johnson may be on a similar footing. what does it mean for politics here in the united states. >> there's a couple of things that are important. the first is that an incumbent

doesn't need to be popular to win. boris johnson wasn't very popular. in many ways he was quite unpalatable to voters. but if the alternative isn't more palatable then the incumbent can win. the interesting thing about parties in opposition, you have to work hard not to become a prisoner of your own twittersphere. it was clear that labor took huge solice from the fact that it was winning the social media war. but most of the population don't spend their time on social media and what happened in real life was very different from what happened in the social media sphere and there's a really important lesson about how parties and politics need to remain anchored in the real lives of people. >> what do you make of this friendship so much as this one between boris johnson and donald trump. we saw president trump go over there a few weeks ago. kind of at arms length. not to have much interaction with him. we didn't see the president do the interviews that he has done in the past. as you look at the integrity of the special relationship going forward. a new trade deal has been

floated for instance. how much has that brokered on the back? >> winners. winners always like each other. as long as politicians win they find ways of learning from each other across divides. now i think that there's also the case that for boris johnson who set himself up as an anti-european, he's got to make the u.s. relationship work. it's very important to the future of the country that u.s.-u.k. relationship is positive. for people like me, the european relationship wasn't a threat to the u.s.-u.k. relationship. it was boris johnson trying to find an alternative way for making that work but there's clearly political learning going on from the central right in the u.k. to the right in the u.s. and i do think that politics is changing in both countries. we saw quite a lot of the tactics of the 2016 campaign including the u.k. report on russian interference in the campaign and so i think there's a -- politics is changing. >> i want to ask you lastly

about the work that you're doing now and a message of what we saw in the u.k. and what we have seen here is an attempt to look inward and not outward. the refugee crisis is one that is going if not ignored -- >> i'm the president of the international rescue committee. it was an organization founded by albert einstein to help refugees. we work around the world helping 27 million refugees and displaced people last year as well as resettling refugees in the u.s. and the point you make is an interesting one. the global order has been established by western countries willing to look outwards and recognize what jfk said we're in a world of interdependce and i think it is a threat to global stability at a time when there's more and more need for international cooperation. and when you hear people talking about the new geopolitics around the world. the rise of china, the instability in the middle east, it seems to me that if we

retreat from those problems, we're going to find that those problems come to us and that's the big lesson i think of the recent past on issues like climate change that does effect the refugee crisis. if we retreat from those problems they're going to become much more difficult to deal with in the future. >> is it too early to have a funeral for liberalism? >> i have one has to be worried about the future of liberal democracy. 113 countries have seen reductions in political freedom over the last 13 years. the majority of countries in the world. i also think that inequalities are the greatest course of anything. and the way americans would define it on the center left. that's still a very powerful force. it needs to be allied as the election showed. if it's not, people won't vote for him. >> great to see you. >> great to see you. >> the international rescue committee joining me here in new york.

speaking of labor disagreements, many democrats might not make it to the next debate but candidates set to take the stage on thursday in los angeles threatened to boycott that debate over a labor dispute. they were working with a contract and planning to picket the debate. the candidates that qualified for the debate are saying they will not cross the picket line. we're working with all stakeholders to find an accept nl resolution that meets their needs and is consistent with our values and will enable us to proceed as schedules. coming up here, jill biden on her husband's campaign and the right's fight to insert hunter biden into the national conversation but up next, things got heated. it was a marathon mark up of the articles of impeachment but was it different from impeachments past? looking back as we look ahead, next. past looking back as we look ahead, next (employee) enterprise car sales has access to over half a million preowned vehicles, most with tech features like blind spot detection, back up camera... [kristen gasps] (employee) because you never know what might be behind you. (kristen bell) does the sloth come standard?

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and help reverse early gum damage. gum detoxify, from crest. ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪♪ we go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. we expect a vote on two articles of impeachment next week. friday's committee vote came at the end of a long debate over the document by the house judiciary committee. >> the first article charges that the president used the

powers to demand that a foreign government attack his political rivals. the second karticle charges tha he obstructed the investigation into his conduct. >> they don't like us. they don't like the 63 million people that voted for this president. >> i want the members on both sides of the aisle to think about what has happened over the last two days and to search their consciouses before we cast our final votes. >> the integrity level of this committee. the chairman's integrity is gone. his staff is gone. this was the most bush league thing i have seen. >> mr. jeffreys. >> aye. >> mr. jeffreys. >> aye. >> my vote is no. >> mr. gohmert votes no. >> mr. jordan. >> no. >> there are 23 ayes and 17 noes. >> the articles agreed to. >> impeachment is as it always has bp a partisan process. as we were reminded last week on up and there's been heated

rhetoric in the past. >> there are 21 ayes and 16 nos. >> and the resolution is ordered reported. perjury and obstruction of justice cannot be reconciled with the office of the president of the united states. >> we are deeply offended by this process. it was partisan and unfair. cencusre was the only solution to this sad chapter in our history. he only solution to this sad chapter in our history. it lies in the integrity of the institutions and trust and informed confidence of the people. >> the committee starts consideration of the most awesome power constitutionally vested in the house of representatives. it can bring down an administration of the government. >> mr. donahue, mr. brooks.

>> aye. >> aye. >> mr. meyer? >> aye. >> aye. >> the house judiciary committee has just approved its first article of impeachment against president nixon. >> mr. chairman? >> order of point. >> 27 members voted aye anticipate 11 no. >> that is adopted and will be reported to the house. >> trips through recent history of the two articles. the obstruction of congress charge is a fwhun. they drafted a contempt of congress charge against president nixon. and one of the whopping 11 articles against president andrew johnson in 1868 charged him with making -- this is incredible, speeches with a loud voice, certain inflamatory and scandalous harrangs to bring contempt and reproach to congress. coming up here at the top of the hour on "up," the president prepares for the senate trial. his key defender flocks to the

white house plus the supreme court stunning decision to take up the fight over trump's taxes. will will america finally get a look at what is inside just in time for the 2020 election? or will americans care? that's next. 0 election or will americancas re that's next. before we talk about tax-smart investing, what's new? -audrey's expecting... -twins! ♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan.

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understanding each other, we can then find common ground to address problems that we defined together. and i think that's necessary because we got to stop scorching each other with this idea that we can tear our own country apart but somehow this great big experiment we call america will survive. no, it will not if we don't get together. and if we start unifying by understanding each other's point of view instead of calling people names or enemies of the state or terrorists or anything else, then i think we can start putting it back together. but i'd be very alarmed. i'm less concerned right now with foreign enemies than i with with what we're doing to ourselves. >> this is "up." the former defense secretary jim mattis speaking out during a "washington post" forum about our current state of affairs in our country. that comes as president trump is gearing up for two big battles, one with congress and one with the nation's highest court. the supreme court yesterday agreed to hear the hoer court order that roir require the

banks and accountants to hand over financial records to local prosecutors in new york. comes after rouge bader ginsburg put a hold on a lower court's ruling to turn over the documents. . also follows the cases to be heard in march with the decision by the end of june. just as the general election season starts more in the limelight. it may not matter much. next week the full house is set to vote on two articles of impeachment levied against donald trump, abuse of power and obstruction of congress. after they pass, the senate will hold a trial. however, majority leader mitch mcconnell says there is not only no chance that he'll be removed from office, it doesn't weigh on his re-election campaign either. [ inaudible question ] >> well, it seems it may not play much of a role in the president's reelection campaign. considerable evidence that in

the battle ground states it's not going over very well. we'll have an impeachment trial as i said repeatedly. it will become the business of the senate after the first of the year. senators will all be in their chairs including those running for president and i'm sure they're really going to be happy to be there. >> david jolly, former republican congressman and former republican as well mara gay is a member of the editorial board. author of the book "the opposite of hate." also with us this morning from washington, betsy woodward swan and agreeing store who covered the supreme court for bloomberg news. sally, let me start with you. i want to get a sense of where the battle lines are drawn at this point. i point out the two fights we're going see in the future. what does washington look like today? what is happening as a result? >> the state of our union is

divided. it is getting harder to say something different at this moment. half the country or two-thirds of the country that's waiving a flag, sounding the bells of alarm, you know, not only is this clear abuse of office, impeachable disastrous, but the fact that you have a full party in our country that is unwilling to acknowledge and deal with those facts, you know, it's just getting the point of being repeative. you do is what looks like a therd third of the country, trump's base saying, you know, what's -- you know, what is happening? like no big deal here, nothing. and that disconnect, right, is mat mapped on top of the larger disconnect growing and happening over the last three years. i fear is not getting resolved any time soon but will just cleave further, lead to further divisions and further horrors when it comes to policy and

hate. i don't see it as having a good path. i hope -- i keep hoping there is an awakening. i don't see any evidence of it. that's where we're at. >> taking that, the layers that sally describing and sort of the broader cultural fronts we're seeing in this country, how is the white house looking at that? >> one thing that the white house and trump campaign officials have seen as impeachment process has played out is a significant spike in small dollar donors. they see that within the cohort of americans, sal i had described to view trump as not having done anything wrong and essentially being the victim of a hoax or a witchunt. within that cohort, the trump administration and campaign are seeing a lot of enthusiasm. and a willingness to donate money to help the president. . that said, this broader topic of sort of the bifurcation of the american populous is also

something that is not lost whatsoever on house democratic leadership. private conversations i have had communicated that they believe it's very unlikely impeachment is going to get support that is above 55%. several months ago mshgs democra, many democrats hoped they could reach 60% or 70% of the american elect tlat would support the impeachment process. now as they've seen the way it's played out, they basically made peace with the fact or accepted that 55% is probably the cap of support they're going to see. again, because the political moment is so polarized. >> david, i want you to respond to what we heard from the senate majority leader and what he said to sean hannity as well. he is working hand in glove with the white house. >> i doesn't seem that worried. >> yeah, i think mitch mcconnell

is unfit to be the majority leader as the senate prepares to accept the articles of impeachment from the house. his role is to serve as an administrator, certainly with his own political leanings. but to ensure that rules going into the impeachment are conducted in a way that ensure a fair presentation of the evidence and a fair verdict. and understand the chief justice is simply a custodian of this trial. the chief justice of the constitution puts the chief justice, justice roberts in this case, in the chair. it only takes 51 senators to overrule the chief justice. i call it the rule of 51. mitch mcconnell indicated in his vint you that he'll basically use the rule of 51 to ensure that president is acquitted. i think nancy pelosi and house democrats may want to reconsider whether or not they refer the articles next week. what happens in the articles of impeachment is the last paragraph will say and the article is hereby referred to the senate for trial. they can strike that paragraph, hold it, and either wait for

mcconnell and shumer to reach some agreement, some assurances that schumer feels we can go into this knowing we may have a fair trial or just hold it until the president commits another impeachable act. perhaps next sum tlmer there ar four articles not responding to the deterence that our founders thought would be a deterrent if the house tried to hold a president accountable? >> you have one of most difficult beats. the folks you cover don't talk a whole lot. but as david mentioned a moment ago, the chief justice of the supreme court is going to have an outside role when this goes to trial as we presume it will. what sense do we have at this point of how he would run a trial in the u.s. senate? >> we don't have a clear sense except that he has a model from the clinton impeachment trial which is the former boss who had a symbolic role but didn't have to decide a lot. and that is because as david said, the senate really sets the rules here. john roberts can't do anything that the senate can't overrule.

and so one would expect that he would generally reflect the views of the senate in terms of what evidence is going to come in, what witnesses might be called. and, you know, he will probably keep the trains running on time much like william rehnquist did and have that symbolic presence but not decide a lot of substance. >> how much does the story change here as this moves to the senate? it's been very streamline. we have the two articles of impeachment. we understand it was debate over how broad they should be and narrow they should be. but it moved through the house. we move into the senate. we see the delays that david jolly is talking about, what could happen at that point. your sense how far that changes the way that we follow and understand the narrative surrounding or underpinning what the articles detail. >> it's difficult to know because one thing that we heard this week was a lot of lamentation about senator john mccain not being around anymore for this. and a sense from some of those

who knew him that this would have been a moment where in a john mccain senate you would have seen if not votes change, you would have seen a rational conversation and a serious conversation about the actual allegations at hand. we don't know whether we're going to see that. i think under the leadership of mitch mcconnell, it's very unlikely given how close that he's been with the white house and how irresponsible as a public servant in general really a disgrace to public service in my opinion. so i think that's difficult. what's going to be more interesting for the election is the story that democrats and republicans are telling to the country, to their respective bases and to that tiny slice of americans in the middle who control that narrative may have quite a real effect on the election. and i think sally is absolutely right. it's kind of hard to know where to go if you're in one of these camps at this point.

americans are not just politically divided, they're culturally divided. it's really hard to know how we come back together even though that is certainly we are one nation. eventually we'll have to do that. i think that the challenge for the democrats in this election is really going to be how to make sure that your base is motivated and not just depressed. and after three years, it's very easy to get upset by what the white house is doing. day in and day out onslaught of the attack on not just norms, right, but on justice and reality. so how do the democrats actually translate that into votes at the polls? that's their challenge. >> great story. insert into that crucible what we saw from the supreme court last night, that is they're willingness to take up the threatt cases to look at president trump finances. i want to get a sense what that means and the timetable for. this i mention the crucible. it will be volatile if that decision is handed down come july, june, july, late in the

court's term? >> yeah. we now know what we're going to fight about next after impeachment is over. the court is going to hear arguments in late march and rule by june. there is a question whether financial documents have to be hand oefrd to a new york grand jury and a second question of whether they have to be turned over to congressional committees. the if the court says they have to be turned over to conditioningtial committees, they could become public quickly. in taking up this case, the supreme court, i don't think that anything really surprising. it's really hard for the court when they hear the president saying this is a really important case for the court to say no, we're not going to take it. but they did put it on an expedited time frame, that means both democrats have a chance to get the documents before the election and that the ruling will come out probably in june right in the middle of the election campaign and, you know, unless the court somehow manages to get together a unanimous

decision will prove devisive as everything else we've been seeing. >> thank you for the time this morning. i appreciate it. my thanks to betsy as well. both of them joining us from washington, d.c. he is promising to prove the impeachment scam is nothing more than a smoke screen for president obama's corruption. so what is rudy giuliani up to and how kit play ocan it play o? ca? ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we needed somebody to lean on ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ all we need is someone to lean on ♪

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friday moments after the judiciary committee set the stage for a full house vote on two articles of impeachment against president trump, the personal attorney rudy giuliani visited the white house. can you see him here, the man at the center of the ukraine scandal stepping out of the car and into the white house. i have to note that rudy giuliani is reportedly under federal investigation for possible campaign finance violations and failure to register as a foreign agent. he was in ukraine a week ago trying to dig up dirt on the former president. when he returned to new york on saturday, the president called him as his plane was still taxiing down the runway. mr. giuliani said. what did you ged, t? more than can you imagine mr. giuliani replied. joining us is intelligence reporter d reporter ken delaney. the last time we talked, rudy giuliani took this trip. we didn't know where he was in the world. he communicated the fact that he had in information that he was

going to relay. just give us your sense of the role he is playing in the trump orbit at this point as we look ahead to it trial and wonder if he's going to have any sort of formal role in how that's conducted. >> that's a great question, david. whether he is playing a formal role in impeachment because if he is, it's just an extraordinary conflict of interest because he's representing the president for free, pro bono, going around the world trying to solicit these conspiracy theories. at the same time, people need to keep in mind, he's been representing wealthy foreign clients before the administration including a turkish money laundering. and there is a big question with who is paying rudy giuliani's bills as he goes to do all this stuff. he raently caecently came back ukraine where he is making a television show with one american news network and they continue to float this bogus conspiracy theory that joe biden essentially threatened ukrainians to withhold $1

billion if they didn't fire that prosecutor. that is false. even though republicans played that tape during the impeachment hearings, we know from multiple streams of reporting that joe biden was doing the u.s. government's bidding when he did that. and also the eu and good government groups. everybody wanted to fire that prosecutor. there is nothing corrupt about it. no one is defending joe biden's son being on the board of that ukrainian gas company. about ut wh but what rudy is perpetrating here is false. he is saying if people think this is wrong, i'm going to keep doing it to send the message that it must be okay. it is a really dangerous course. he is under federal criminal investigation and anything he says at this point can and will be used against him and there is a lot of questions about who is paying his bills. >> sally, to that note, let me quote more from that journal piece. the pressure is bolstering relationship with the president and boosted mr. giuliani's consulting business and returned him to the public spotlight. friends say he is revelling in

it. if you cast an eye on the twitter feed or look at him there at the white house or follow the fact that he's taking this trip around the world, there is such a striking element of that. he is back on the stage once again. >> woo-hoo. i mean, again, i -- you know, on the one hand, i think those of us who i'm a little biassed here are, you know, of sound mind and rational thinking, look at this and say what the heck are any of thinking? this is akin to, you know, when the ukraine allegations first came out and trump went on the white house lawn and said like, oh, yeah, i want china to investigate too. i'm just going to both blizzard you with information and also just do more of the same indeed to suggest that there is nothing wrong with it. giuliani just looks so unhinged, so over the top, reckless and out of bounds, right? ethically, morally, whatever.

the notion seems to be we can't undo it so let's double down. but again, that is from if those that keep expect ig things to play out in a logical and rational way, the nakt they're in this much hot water and still doing more of what they're doing is just, again, it shows how completely different our realities are. >> the pot should be boiling by now. >> it shows you the absolute impunity with which these people are operating. and, of course, you know, as a former tabloid reporter myself, the daily news had a great wood, front page last weekend. and it says big apple circus. and it was like new york pols take over the swamps of washington, d.c. andall and really this is only a story can you see out of that world. just the drama and the outrageousness of it. but it really is just such a

thumb in the face of the american people. >> how much attention do you pay to this story? it's a deliberate distraction. yet, he keeps putting himselves into these situations, he comes back with information or whatever. he is dangling all this stuff and it's an effort to distract. how do you not pay attention to it? >> you pay attention it to because of the involvement of the president. what rudy giuliani doesn't realize he is now disgraced and he has no credibility. so whatever product he comes up with will only be used among the trump campaign and his supporters in 2020. what may land him in jail as viewers heard fara thrown around, if you're a lobbyist in the united states, you have to register. you represent your community college or a company, you register with the congress. you go to the secretary, senate, or clerk of house f you're representing a foreign entity before the united states government, it's a department of justice filing. the foreign agent registration act. he is a foreign agent and he is

unregistered. that can wind him up in jail. why it matters is not because of a disgrace for a mayor of new york, bad attorney who says he's not being paid by anybody. it's because he has the ear of the president of the united states. and just as the day after the mueller hearing, donald trump got on the phone call with the president of ukraine asking for dirt on biden. this week as he's being impeached by the house judiciary committee, he has the russian foreign minister in the white house and rudy giuliani coming to visit with him as well. it matters because it speaks to the lack of fitness of donald trump who cares about rudy giuliani? but donald trump is corrupt to the core and rudy giuliani is an accomplice in this corruption. >> we'll leave it. there thank you for joining us from wash. appreciate the time. still to come, my conversation with joe biden's wife. jill biden is going to join me in new york. first, waging war against his own department of justice. is the attorney general a threat to democracy heading into 2020? that's coming up. up

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government use the apparatus of the state principally the law enforcement agencies and the intelligence agencies, both to spy on political opponents but also to use them in a way that could affect the outcome of the election. >> this is "up." attorney general bill barr says it was the obama administration not russia threatening to undo our democracy. he is concerned with our civil liberties being violated or at least donald trump's civil liberties. last week he had a different take on the first amendment. >> today american people have to focus on something else which is the sacrifice and the service that is given by our law enforcement officers. and they have to start showing more than they do the respect and support that law enforcement deserves. and if communities don't give

that support and respect, they may find themselves without the police protection they need. >> former attorney general eric holder called those wordsant theticcal to the most tenants of quality and justice in a "washington post" op-ed, unprecedented takedown of an attorney general by another. in that piece he writes, william barr is unfit to lead the justice department. david jolly, i want to use that piece as the spine for this conversation. he said attorney general bill barr made a series of public statements and taken action that's are so plainly ideological, so nakedly partisan and deeply inappropriate for america's chief law enforcement official that they demand a response from someone who held the same office. eric holder saying he didn't come to this lightly. he didn't want to write this op-ed. but the circumstances demanded it. >> good for eric holder. and bill barr should be glad that stone construction of the department of justice prevents lightning from striking when he gives a speech like. that the hypocrisy in attacking his own law enforcement

officials while suggesting the nation doesn't appreciate law enforcement enough speaks to who bill barr is as a person. forget about his attorney general. speaks to who he is as a person. there is multifactors to his disappointment to the nation in this role. disappointment to legal community. he is suggesting first the president of the united states cannot be -- charges can not be bro brought against him. he is also the architect of suggesting congress doesn't have the ability to hold him accountable. the president has presidential immunity from having to respond to congress. he is elevating the president above all else out of the reach of accountability. but what we've seen this week and the challenge to horowicz is something that has nothing to do with the law and everything to do with hypocritical politics. he is willing to abandon the truth. he is willing to be one of the architects of post truth politics and post reason

politics that trump has succeeded with. the it is why he's been a disappointment to will legal community. where they called him out and why he should leave this office with shame and not with accolades of politician or the nation. >> i'll quote from two friends of the show here. his politicalization of the office is unorthodox and departure from previous attorneys general. it seems like authoritarianism. where do we go from here? you have the statements he made about religion and the executive, the statements about law enforcement and then the statements about the president as well. i guess the question is how far is the horse out of the barn at this point? you look at the erosion of norms and the way things are supposed to operate in this country? >> i don't know how to take that first metaphor and turn it -- the barn is burning? >> rode the horse out of town. >> like, you know, i they that

it so beyond the extreme of what this role should be. the idea -- look, i'm not going to -- at this point i think we can reasonably give up on a certain part of the country that is going to continue to defend barr including trump and trump loyalists, right? i do think there is a moment of reflection for the rest of us to look and see this is what happens when you have unaccountable law enforcement. right? that is really what he is supposed to be. he is supposed to be the top cop in our country. he is a dirty cop. we look at how police have an extraordinarily -- extraordinary uncheckability. usually the defense is being themselves thish themselves, their own interests. they find every way to contort the reality and facts to defend themselves. those that wanted to look or who have been forced to look have seen it happening in cities and local jurisdictions around this

country for far too long. now we're also seeing it playing out at the top. and suddenly it is noe note wor that are horrified it is happening now. >> that is such a powerful point in so many ways. bill barr is the embodyment, the human embodyment of unaccountable law enforcement in this country. and there are a lot of voters, there are a lot of americans, black americans especially who see that and they say so? not because they're not horrified or it's okay. but because this is the experience they have with law enforcement too often. it's not all law enforcement. but the problem is when you create a culture where there is no accountability when someone does mistreat the public this is what you get. i think you see that rudy giuliani in his behavior. let's not forget, he was a law

enforcement official. and essentially there is a very thin line at this point between those who are in law enforcement and those who are -- think they're above the law. i also just think that, you know, bill barr, it's very frustrating because if you're part of a community, i'm a journalist, american, i'm also a black american. and i think that trusting institutions is important. but blind trust in authority is very dangerous. and there are many americans from, you know, from my family who understand that you cannot be unaccountable. and that, you know, democracy requires, you know, yes facing institutions but not unquestioning faith. it requires accountability. i think this is the problem with bill barr. the there are a lot of people when he was first appointed, they said oh, he's normal. he's an institutionalist. he'll defend democracy. there is really nothing in his background that suggested that.

and so people need to look a little bit more closely. blind trust in authority does not serve democracy. >> david, trump talked about wanting to find his roy cohen and it is bill barr. >> we'll leave it there. jill biden is going to join me on set. she continues to travel around the country campaigning for her husband. we're weeks away from iowa and new hampshire. she is telling voters it's about one thing, who can beat president trump. my conversation with the former second lady of the united states. that's coming up next. lady of states that's coming up next. let's be honest,

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joe biden who is running for president made it clear to me he is ready and able and willing to serve two terms if necessary. i know he is focused on they election and on making sure that he's in a position to undo the damage that president trump has done by breaking apart some of the divisions in our country and by weakening our position in the world. i know he excited about the prospect of being the democratic nominee and being our next president to both heal those wounds and restore some of our position. >> this is "up." the that is a friend and supporter of joe biden, responding to rumors the former vice president may be considering serving only one term if he were to be elected president. someone that knows the former vice president better than anyone, his wife jill biden. this is a piece in "politico" that there was conversation about that over the course of the campaign. your reaction to that? >> well, honestly, this is the

first time i'm hearing this. because, you know, i've been out on the trail every day. if i haven't been on the trail, i've been on -- i've been in the classroom. this is the first time i've heard that. >> you're aware of what fuels the rumors. that is he is older than he was. certainly he is older when you look at the people running for the kraic nomination. what do you say to those who are bringing that up? >> actually, he's not older than, you know, looking at who is running. so most of them are in their 70s. but, david, you said yourself you haven't been on the campaign trail. i'm going to invite you. just come and travel with me, travel with joe. and see his energy. he has a lot of energy. and, you know, he's always been like. that he's always keeps going, keeps going. most of the time i have to say to him in the morning, like, joe, just wait until i have my coffee until you start with this idea or that idea. >> how much do the two of you talk about strategy on that note? as he approach this is campaign, how much of that is a

conversation between the two of you about the direction of it? >> well, you know, we don't really talk about strategy. i mean the most of the time that we're together which is few days this time. but we talk about family. you know, we talk about what every other husband and wife talk about when they get together. and it's just like well, joe, what do you think you're going to do in iowa? no, it's like how are the kids doing? how are the grabbndkids? what have you purchased for christmas already, that kind of stuff. >> how different is this campaign from ones you've been on in the past? my colleague who is covering your husband's campaign says you're out there more than you have been in the past. you're approaching this doggedly. what is different this time around? ? you see the campaign in your role in it. >> i think what is different is that joe is running for president. and so all the spotlight is on joe. so he takes, you know, he'll go one way and i'll go another way. i mean, i haven't seen him now in, i don't know, a couple days. but i'll see him tonight. so we're going to the education forum in pittsburgh.

and we'll be together. so guess what? i'm going to ask him your question. st joe, did y joe, did you say one term, really? >> i want to ask you about family and politics. it is something you had to reckon with. your family has been brought to the center of it the way that perhaps you didn't expect or he didn't expect. how do you reckon with that? how do you wrestle with the fact that those whom you love are at the center of this campaign and not unprecedented but rare national moment? >> you know, when joe and i decided to run for president, when we made that decision, you know, we knew it was going to be tough. our family was going to be tough. but we never could have imagined it would turn into donald trump would be asking a foreign government to get involved in our elections. and i think, you know, donald trump has shown us who he is. and this has been a real distraction. i think it just proves that he's afraid to run against my husband

joe biden. >> when hunter's name was first mentioned and this became something that started to percolate, how did you react to that? when you loaning at the jong left of this, has it lasted longer than you expected? how do you deal with the fact that it's so unrelenting? >> i know my son. i know my son's character. hunter did nothing wrong. and that's the bottom line. >> you must have watched as your husband interaccounts have that voter in iowa very forcefully. what did you make of that response? and how do you and he respond to the fact that question keeps coming up? >> well, i think any parent who is watching this show knows that if anyone attacked their son or daughter, i mean, you don't just sit down and take it. you fight for your kid. and i think that just shows, you know, joe's going to stand up to bullies and a bully like donald trump and it shows his strength and his tenacity and his

resilience and i think he showed the american people really, you know, what the fire in the belly. >> is it something different in sn a lot of people said this is a different joe biden. one we haven't seen in a while. >> no. you can never say -- no. you can never say anything against somebody's child. that's just wrong. you know, that's -- you know, that's bullying. and so i mean look at what the president did this week with that 16-year-old girl, greta. i mean, you can't attack children. that's bottom line. >> i'm going to put that tweet up. i'm glad you bring it up. it is the tweet about greta being made "times" person of the year. so ridiculous. work on her anger management problem and get a good old fashioned movie with a friend. greta, chill. what does that say to you? this is a few days after his wife spoke out about her son in a hearing. >> yes. so ironic. you know, i mean the bottom line is you cannot bully, just

period. as a teacher, i see it all the time. and it's unacceptable. and then to have the president of the united states bully a 16-year-old girl who has such passion. she was named "time" person of the year. and he should be celebrating and because she's inspiring to other people. you know? and he should be coming out and complimenting her not putting her down. >> how do we repair the cultural injury that we've sufd fered as result of things like. that the free leader punching down. >> we change our leadership. we for a president like joe biden who respects people and the office of the presidency and it just starts with the leadership on everything, actually. >> you are an educator. you've been talking about education. you talked about you're going to this forum today which we'll have a hand if broadcasting. how satisfied are you the disagrdegree

to which it's been talked about. are we talking about education, access to education and how we pay for it? >> i know i am. you know, i'm on the campaign trail every day and talking about joe's education plan. i'm talking to teachers across this nation. and i've listened. and so joe's education plan is teacher centered. i mean he's been marry to a teacher now for 42 years. i think, you know, he hears what the teachers need in the classroom. and the first thing joe is going to do is change our secretary of education. we want somebody who has been in the classroom and knows what teachers are dealing with and knows the challenges. and so i hope the teachers across the country look at joe's education plan and say that's who i want as my commander in chief. >> somebody who talks a lot about education based on her background is elizabeth warren. . teaching and how she governs. help us understand how that informs the way you look at public life and politics and what you heard from senator warren on that point. >> i don't listen to actually

senator warren. i listen to joe biden and his education plan. i think joe's plan is the best plan out. there i keep going all over this country and telling teachers, hey, you know, the beauty of teachers is when i say what do you want and need? the first thing that they say is not we need more money. they say we need more resources. we need wraparound services. we need mental health services, counsellors and school psychologists. that's what they're talking about. and then they say, you know what? it would be nice if we had more money. because we need to attract a lot more people to our profession, people aren't going into teaching like they used to. and we need a lot more people of color to enter the profession. so the way to do that is to raise the salaries and, you know, raise the profile of teachers and celebrate who they are. >> lastly, what needs to happen with student loan debt? a lot of people said this is like a loan crisis.

there was a program in place. npr did a lot of reporting on this. folks did public service. there were huge problems with that. they found that ten years after doing work in the public good, they couldn't get it back. >> how big a concern is that? how do you change that? >> it is a big concern. you know, i hear it all over the country. people are really struggling with student loans. and so the way that we're going to address that, that joe's going to address that is twofold. one way is offer free community college. that works if you take courses in high school and they go to your community college degree and free community college. and then they only have to pay for two years of college. but if you decide, no, i don't want to go to community college, i want to go to a four year college, that's my dream, so it's based on your income. so if you make less than $25,000 after you graduate from college, then you don't have to pay your student loan. but if you make more, hopefully

you'll make more with your college degree, then it's based on your income. and it's 5% of your discretionary income. so after you pay your mortgage, taxes, food bill, it's based on the money that you will have 5% of that. and you're automatically enrolled in the program once you graduate. >> pleasure to meet you. >> thank you, david. >> jill biden on her way to pittsburgh. she is there for the public education forum in 2020. >> go teachers. >> discussing their plans for public education and priorities facing students and educators, that starts at 10:00 a.m. we'll stream it live on nbc news and msnbc now. >> coming up, pardons from out going govern yoz is nothing new. but republicans are in an uproar over matt bevin. we'll be telling you why they're a travesty next. bevin. we'll be telling you why they're a tresavty next. ♪oh there's no place like home for the holidays.♪

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convicted of cutting a woman's head off and putting it in a barrel. a man sentenced to 23 years for raping a child. they're reporting one convicted killer patrick brian baker is receiving a pardon after his family raised more than $21,000 for bevin last year. after days of silence and backlash, he defended his decisions on twitter. 20 tweets in total. he writes, not one person receiving a pardon would i not welcome as a co-worker, neighbor, or to sit beside me or my family member of my church and a church pugh ew or public event. he called on the u.s. attorney's office to open an investigation into bevin pardons. mitch mcconnell is making two majority leaders versus one governor bevin. >> honestly, i don't approve. it seems to me it was completely inappropriate. >> the agreement across the aisle, here is reaction from this morning.

a kentucky representative on msnbc. >> you have to question what the world he was thinking. there is such a thing abuse of the pardon power. this is certainly something that would warrant that kind of investigation. >> peace of the pardon power. david jolly, from what you have seen and read about the pardon that's we've seen over the course of the last few days, your reaction to them and how extraordinary they are. >> most pardon cases, it is true. you think this

investigation is going to yield at this point? >> i mean, corruption. this is about corruption and again, not knowing the details, and it's important to get a fair investigation an understood pendent one, you know, sometimes it's hard to explain corruption and the course of it to people. this is a case where it's act l actually not difficult. you can see that a culture of corruption that started in the white house and now has been emboldened across the country, it has led to apparently the pardoning of people who should apparently not have been pardoned and it's interesting because it's really not a partisan issue and i think it's a good example of how corruption can cut through that and it's really about the misuse of power. >> sally, you know, you look at commutations and pardons. barack obama did one on drug convictions. i'm also struck how adamantly he

is in defending them. he read all these cases, made owl these decisions on his own. while there isn't the cohesive case to be made he's saying he put in the time. >> let me say i actually feel very conflicted about this entire conversation, right? and first of all, i don't know the detail, you know, more than the headline news stories and what's been reported. it seems to me an investigation is called for. there was evidence that there were campaign contribution, at least one case but i want to know, if there's corruption, i want to know. putting that aside for a second because i don't think we have all the information, look, this is one of those situations where my principle's feelings conflict with my partisan and for someone who believes we have an overly punitive criminal justice system, that we have built up the incarceration industrial complex and oversentenced, overpoliced so many for so many ways and so many reasons i tend

to look at commutations with a good degree of favor and certainly when they're advanced by democrats. so to look at -- and in fairness, to look at a situation and say well i'm automatically going to cast, you know, skeptical eye because these were done by a republican even though it's a republican who in a lot of area of policy i have deep, deep problems and divisions with it does feel to me it conflicts with my principles, so at a broad level, again, without knowing the intricacies of every single case and what an investigation will find i do believe in forgiveness and redempti redemption. i believe we have a system that for too many people have prioritized a punishment that is -- not only doesn't serve the interest of victims but doesn't serve the interest of society or those who have committed crimes so you know, there's me. >> the question is is, this is about redemption or was this able a special favor for a

campaign donor. that's the question. >> and just to that, to the optimism, the faith in forgiveness that sally is talking about if you have that kind of corruption in a process like this. >> the balance between mercy and justice is always a difficult one and we entrust our leaders in the white house to appropriately balance that. it's hard to understand mercy when they show favor to somebody who cut off a woman's head aput it in a trash can. i think that's why you saw the outrage. it goes though to something we started the show off with, which is how broken our politics is and the level of distrust that we have between the parties and between each other. and as we sit and watch our elected leaders fight through this bitter partisanship, it's on us to ex- better of our leaders and it's on us to replace those leaders with people that we can trust will balance mercy versus justice in situations like this and we don't have to second guess their decisions. >> thanks for all of you for joining me here.

coming up here at the top of the next hour, half a dozen 2020 candidates discuss their plan for the future of education in america. public education forum is coming up right after the break. thousands of women with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread to other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women or for men with hr+/her2- metastatic breast cancer, as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole, and shrank tumors in over half of patients. patients taking ibrance can develop low white blood cell counts which may cause serious infections that can lead to death. ibrance may cause severe inflammation of the lungs that can lead to death. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including trouble breathing, shortness of breath, cough, or chest pain.

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>> ms. jackson lee votes aye. >> today is a solemn and sad day. for the third time in a little over a century and a half, the house judiciary committee has voted articles of impeachment against the president for abuse of power and obstruction of congress. the house will act expeditiously. thank you. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. well, as he wakes up this morning and prepares to fire up the twitter machine and maybe tweet a teenager or two to advance his wife's be best campaign donald trump can be sure of one thing. he has finally achieved something that president barack obama with his scandal free prison inmate free administration could not. namely, the historic shame of impeachment. after 14 hours of debate

thursday night, a party line vote in the house judiciary committee yesterday and a full house vote expected this wednesday, donald john trump will become just the fourth american president to face impeachment hearings and the third to be fully impeached by the house. and he will be the first and the only president to be impeached for jeopardizing the national security of his own country. for betraying his oath and abusing his office in order to strong arm a foreign country to help him get re-elected because he fears he's too weak and too despiced by the majority of the american people to get re-elected on his own. and even if his lackeys let him off the hook as the majority lead leader has vowed they will, donald trump will essentially come the o.j. simpson of presidents, acquitted but many people who cheer the verdicts are going yeah, he did