laos newsletter in a little bit. you can sign up at signup.axios.com. that does it for me, everybody. "morning joe" starts right. unlike some dem -- some candidates for the democratic nomination, i'm not counting on politicians having an epiphany and suddenly supporting the kinds of tax increases on the rich or big business accountability that they've opposed under democratic presidents for a generation. >> a couple of the candidates out there are attacking me and the very idea that i satisfy we can unite the country. they seem to think america's so divided it can never be up nighted again. >> i'm not betting my agenda on the naive hope that if democrats adopt republican critiques of progressive policies or make vague calls for unity that somehow the wealthy and well

connected will stand down. >> anyone who starts off saying we can't bring america together is just throwing in the towel. they're saying everything donald trump has been saying. divider and chief, they're saying he's already won. but they're wrong. >> joe biden and elizabeth warren increasingly going after each other on the campaign trail. we'll get into that dynamic just ahead. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, december six tootoont >> donny deutsch is with us. national correspondent for nbc news and author of the red and blue, steve kornacki with us. and former chief of staff to the dccc and former director of strategic communications for hillary clinton's presidential campaign, adrienne elrod. she's an msnbc contributor. also with us u.s. national

editor at the financial times edward luce is with us this morning. >> ed, i'm sorry i'm just talking too much about the british elections last week, drove mika absolutely crazy. give aus a quick 30 seconds on what the political earthquake meant last week and what you, someone who covers british and american politics, what you think it means for american politics moving forward. >> well, the working class in britain have moved to the conservative party. they might have temporary moved there and lent their vote to boris johnson, but it is an earthquake in the sense that the post dust industrial classes are voting for them. this shows that the voters in 2016, blue collar workers, it's

a transatlantic trend that's quite profound and might prove to be enduring through 2020. the other thing is that the left having lost the worst defeat since 1935, since before my parents were born, jeremy corbyn is now essentially trying to rig the leadership election to replace him by narrowing it down to candidates who share his fairly secretariat view of the world. it doesn't all go out in terms of the left learning lessons about why they're losing. >> it's just unbelievable. jonathan lemire, the president yesterday spinning out of control again. this time in part attacking fox news. attacking fox news polls. >> so we heard. >> it's funny over the last couple of weeks, we'll get into all of these polls, remarkable

results for both donald trump, republicans, head to head matchups, also of course the democratic race. that's why we have the range here, steve kornacki with us. he's going to be screaming this morning, kids, but that's all right. you can get some helpful nuggets in between the bursts of activity, the explosions. but, jonathan lemire, the president obviously didn't like the fact that by a nine-point margin a majority of americans still want the president impeached and removed from office. >> that's very clear, joe. i mean, the president has been even for him rather active and perhaps out of control, one could say, on twitter. he set a record last week for the most tweets in one day, well over a hundred. on the weekend he attended the army/navy game, i was there with him on saturday and basked in that spectacle and then sunday returned to twitter. he went after fox news which he

thinks is a news organization that should be on its side. he always criticize it for always having democrats on its air and the polling department which most of the industry, steve, the rage, can back me up on this later. most of the industry think it's a strong polling department. we also saw him yesterday attack house speaker nancy pelosi and make a joke about her teeth, which is not quite clear what that was about. but certainly not his most dignified tweet. and it goes to show the pressure that he is facing. as much as the white house and his advisers believe that impeachment, they keep trying to put it out there, this could be a political win for him. they're pointing to their internal polls to show it's playing pretty well. the independents in battleground states are not into impeachment so therefore playing pretty well for his re-election chances. he knows what this means. on wednesday, we can't stress enough, on wednesday, president trump is going to be the third president in history to be impeached. the house of representatives is going to impeach president trump and he knows that's a defining part of his leg gase spit thaac

as he could win re-election, that's not going to go away and we see it's eating on him and it bursts -- his frustration bursts into public view time and time again and particularly yesterday on twitter. >> all right. that's where nbc news has learned that senate minority leader chuck schumer has proposed calling former national security adviser john bolton, and acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney as witnesses in the senate impeachment trial. schumer sent a letter to majority leader mitch mcconnell late yesterday proposing that the senate sf both bolton and mulvaney along with two other people close to the president who may know about that delay of military aid to ukraine. in the letter, schumer writes, senate democrats believe strongly and i trust senate republicans agree, that this trial must be one that is fair, that considers all of the relevant facts, and that exercises the senate's sole

power of impeachment under the constitution winning at the gritty a with integrity and dignity. he's definitely trying to get that testimony. which brings us to the new numbers on impeachment. in the latest fox news poll, 50% of registered voters think the president should be impeached and removed from office. up one point since october. 4% think he should be impeached but not removed from office. and 41% do not think he should be impeached at all. when looking at the two articles of impeachment brought ford by house democrats, 53% think president trump abused the power of his office. 38% do not. 48% think he obstructed congress. 34% do not. and when looking at other charges, house democrats could have brought forward as articles of impeachment against the president, 50% think that president trump obstructed

justice. 37% do not. and 45% think the president committed bribery, 37 do not. when asked if it was standard practice for presidents to ask important leaders that investigate political rivals, only 22% said it was typical. among republicans, 33% thought this was normal practice. overall pretty devastating numbers for the president. >> they are devastating up and down the line. donny deutsch, my gosh, you look at all of the numbers. i'm still stubbnned by the top number, 50% still want him impeached and removed from office, only 41% don't. you know, 4% want him impeached but not removed. those are devastating numbers. bill clinton never got into the 30s on impeachment and it just -- i just think about the republicans that have been running around telling

everybody -- and also trump hacks who work for online newspapers running around writing columns saying that this has been horrible for the democrats and nancy pelosi. those numbers are devastating up and down the line for any politician, republican or democrat alike. >> they are and they're absolute. but there's one thing that, to me, say gray cloud amongst the silver lining is that since october, which when we paraded the most credible witnesses that you could possibly have, whether they're life had long people that gave their service to the country down to gordon sondland, it hasn't moved. it's still at 50. that's the concern to me, that it is so baked at this point, one would have thought if we went back to october, that 50 or 49 would have gone to 56, 57, 58.

and the needle is not moving at all. so although the numbers, when you look at them in their absolute terms and obviously the rage is going to give us some real deep insight, that say great name, by the way, that, to me, that they haven't moved say bit kerngs concerning to me. >> let's go through the numbers and talk about the majority wanting him to be removed, but also those other questions that were asked about obstruction and the other areas on -- that really took apart the president's performance in this ukraine scandal. what jumps out at you? >> sure. let me throw an object, maybe a cup or something first on the table to live up to "the rage" here. what don nip was sayiny is sayi this fox news poll, this is the worst poll on impeachment i've seen for trump in some time. but that said, take a look at the average of all polls out there. if you look at that right now,

it's 47% impeach, 46% don't. that's consistent with where it's been. i'm look at one this morning that came out that has the opposite of fox. so really it was a big jump when this ukraine story broke whether all the key characters were introduced to the public, you saw the numbers move up to where you are right now in the polls. i think donny is right, big picture of those haven't changed. they speak to every republican being against this, basically every democrat being for this. and that polarization that you've seen since 2016. i think from the white house's standpoint, yeah, no president wants to be impeached. no president wants that to be part of his or her legacy. but from a survival standpoint, that's been the key to the white house on this. if you keep that republican number, support among republicans for the president at 90% plus, that's going to keep republicans in the house and senate. and i think largely, in fact,

completely at this point that's what we've seen. >> but, you know, adrienne, it must be the old politician in me. when i look at numbers like that, i think, boy, i would be spouting that on the campaign. i mean, if democrats know how to fight and there's actually no evidence that on the campaign trail they do know how to fight donald trump. but if they did know how to fight donald trump, i would lift those numbers, i would be pounding him day in and day out. i would be pounding susan collins day in and day out. thom tillis day in and day out. cory gardner. wait a second, you're voting to acquit this guy when? and then i would just get my five top numbers out of that fox news poll which makes it doubly powerful on the campaign trail for independents. and, again, i understand what donny's saying, i understand what steve's saying, it hasn't moved as much as maybe trump's opponents would like.

i don't care. if i'm a democrat running against a republican, i scoop up those numbers and i bang republican candidates over the head from now until election day on it talking about how sleazy he is and even a fox news poll shows that americans believe that this president crossed every line he could with his sleazy actions. >> yeah, joe, i think you basically just wrote the ad for the dccc. we talk about how these numbers will impact trump's re-election. we don't talk about how it will affect the election of the senators in these swing states which you just mentioned which will be crucial to winning or not winning the presidency for donald trump. states like north carolina, thom tillis. arizona, martha mcsally. even iowa, joni ernst.

we're going to name several senators that will have a difficult time not defend gts president should she go in that direction. the independent voters is the number i look at. in the last poll when it was conducted in late october, 38% of independents supported impeachment. now that number has gone up to 45%. democrats are going win this election at the white house, the ballot box, and down to the senate races by getting independent voters, a majority of them, in our corner and also getting those suburban swing voters. when you look at the numbers holistically, i'm more concerned less with where the majority of americans are and more concerned with where those independent voters are and where those swing voters are when it comes to this election. >> absolutely. >> and you take swing states, let's talk about, jonathan lemire, north carolina. here's a swing state that donald trump actually won a bit more easily than others. but even if donald trump wins north carolina, look at thom

tillis. in a poll i saw, he's only at 31% approval rating, low 30s. and he just -- that guy, i mean, mitch mcconnell's not going to have enough money to throw at that guy to help him win that race because his reputation right now four, five years in is so bad. mcconnell's going to have a race of his known kentucky. so, again, these numbers may not be as bad for the president, but what about those senators like tillis who, again, low 30s? i mean, how's he going -- how's he going to balance this when it's time to vote on impeachment and these numbers look so bad for the president? >> yeah, tillis is a great example. he's one of a number of republicans. you and adrienne just outlined who are going to face a lot of scrutiny here for their vote who are in difficult races, who have

seen their poll numbers really sink in the last couple years of trump's -- since trump took office. and, yes, the president, in his re-election team, they're exuding a lot of confidence. they held a briefing for some select reporters last week. we attended that. and they point to since impeachment began and the ukraine matter burst into the headlines in september, the fundraising numbers went up. the attendance at rallies has gone up, the social media interactions has gone up and they're saying in their internal data they're seeing independents in battleground states souring on impeachment. but these are all -- these are not overwhelming numbers either. they realize that they're in a close fight going forward. and certainly everything will change if the republicans aren't able to hang on to the senate or if they lose a number of seats. and that will shape the landscape in washington entirely

and a lot of people are frustrated that they haven't opted to run for the senate instead where they could pick up some of the seats in the is a big moment for the senate in weeks ahead and right now and we'll see later, schumer and mcconnell are going to start with negotiations as to what the trial looks like. but the president has his own ideas. he prefer a long, showy trial thinking he could be exonerated with this and call up hunter biden, call up joe biden, thinking it could almost be a reality tv show. mcconnell has made it clear he s not interested in that at all. >> a new poll shows that all five top democratic contenders are beating president trump. bernie sanders beats trump by six points, 49% to 43%. joe biden leads trump by a seven-point margin, 48% to 40 wurn%.

elizabeth warren slides by the president 46 to 45. michael bloomberg wins by five points, 45 to 40. and pete buttigieg wins with a na narrow victory of 43 to 42%. >> donny deutsch, it's fascinating, bernie sanders, the guy that he constantly calls a socialist -- >> top of the list. >> bernie does well in these things. joe biden does well in these things. elizabeth warren down a little bit. but, again, donald trump losing fairly badly to the top two democrats right now. >> i must have woken up open the wrong side of the bed because i go back to the polls and go back to what happened at the beginning of the show where you had a hard left candidate and got destroyed. i look at those polls and see

bernie sanders and elizabeth warren ahead of trump and i go i'm not looking at those polls, that's baloney. they get devastated. the biden opening, when you talk about dividing, it's a different way of dividing us and it's absolute you're either on our team or you're on the other team if you don't subscribe to some of these socialistic tenants. if democrats are looking at those polls and feeling good about themselves, they shouldn't. i do not believe any of those hard left candidates come close to beating president trump. >> i do don'n't disagree with d especially when it is donald trump against one other candidate and how voters feel about that candidate, how comfortable they feel making the leap to voting for someone like elizabeth warren or bernie sanders versus donald trump. those -- those people adrienne was talking about in the swing states, the independents, people who might be little fed up with trump, i just don't see how they vote for bernie sanders or

elizabeth warren. >> but, so ed, though, i wonder with bernie sanders if we have corbynism without corbyn. i only say that because after the 2016 election, and that shocked, of course, people that are in the media and are in the political class that are in the political classes, but there were a lot of articles about people who voted for donald trump but would have voted for bernie sanders if sanders -- if sanders actually made the ticket. and that, of course, where would that be? >> right. >> wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. sanders has a certain resonance among working-class voters that i think in general elections we haven't seen evidence of elizabeth warren having. a lot of people try to lump these two together. i don't -- i don't think they go hand in hand in some cases if

you believe, you know, the postmortems in 2016. >> with there was that famous poll west virginia with trump beat hillary i think the largest margin other than wyoming. but if bernie and issinsanders the nominee, he would have won 48-46. so treat it with some skepticism. but it showed a very, very different attitude towards bernie sanders than the corporate defeat mig corporate corbyn defeat might imply. corbyn sat on the fence. he was unsectarian and he faced a party ruthlessly straightforward message, which is get brexit done. three words and a very active. as indeed they had in the 2016 referendum, take back control. labor had a very sort of

ambivalent message like maybe we'll have a referendum, another one. we don't know which side we'll be on. i subpoenspect sanders if he wee nominee would have a clear message and he wouldn't have the whiff of anti-semitism around him either. it's important to not over do the comparisons. the differences are probably more important. >> so, adrienne, fox news also had a poll that talked about the democrats running. once again had joe biden on top and once again -- and i will say this has been the biggest surprise for me over the past month. elizabeth warren continuing to drop, minus eight. and i just sit and look at those numbers and say, is she really losing all of this support because she put out a very progressive program? it's -- i didn't -- in the

democratic party, i would not have expected this political bleeding to continue, but it does in just about every poll. and look at teflon joe. teflon joe just staying up there, jack. he's just staying up there and not slipping. >> teflon joe, durable joe, i mean, call it what you want to call it, but he has weathered some storms, joe, during this primary. and so far he's stayed on top consistently. he's also the only candidate in this race, i know we talked about this many times on the show, but he's the only candidate running in the democratic primary who can really attract a diverse elector ra ate. joe biden is far is the person who has the most support among that community. we'll see if anything changes and how the first for states shake out. perhaps even though iowa say largely white state, i do think

whoever wins iowa will have a lot of momentum going into the other three states. we'll see how that affects the outcome. when it comes to elizabeth warren, i've been a little surprised by her drop in the polls. but i do think when she came out and said this will cost $52 trillion, my medicare for all plan, a lot of people took a step back and said i'm just not sure i want to support a costly plan like that. and everybody remembers, everyone remembers how hard it was to pass the affordable care act in 2010 with a fully controlled democratic house and white house, it was still very difficult to pass. americans remember that. and they want to keep their health care, a majority of americans want to have the option of keeping their private health insurance. >> everybody remembers that, adrienne, except for the democratic candidates that were running for president. i could not believe what i was hearing in the first three debates as one after another after another suddenly attacked

barack obama and attacked obamacare. that was a two-year political fight to the death. and, mika, for them to just toss that aside and act like, oh, well that's nothing. we're now going to really produce this huge overhaul. >> yeah. >> also want to follow up on what ed said. >> it's too much change. >> you don't want to draw too many parallels between last week's britain vote and the american election. but there does seem to be one, if you read ed's paper over the past few days and you look at elizabeth warren's numbers dr dropping, there was heavy skepticism among labor voters in the midlands and the north that jeremy corb jeremy corbyn could not deliver on the radical promss ises he w making. that's what you hear about elizabeth warren's medicare

price tag with a price tag of $52 trillion. america doesn't have that kind of money. >> i'll ask steve kornacki, what do you make of elizabeth warren's drop? but also i noticed mike bloomberg. where's he coming from and what's making it happen? >> the warren, i think i'm with joe on this just in being surprised at the scale of the drop that warren has suffered here. i think one thing we've seen in the polling consistently is more than we've seen in past elections, democratic voters say they are fixated on this idea of electability. it's a very difficult to define, obviously, electability is theability to win the election. everything else is hypothetical. i wonder if there are a chunk of democratic voters who looked at the heat warren was starting to get on this health care plan and played that out and said do we want as a party to be attached for this debate to be the

defining debate of the 2020 presidential election dore presidential election or do we want to go after trump on something else? we've seen more strategic things make their ways into the polls. those numbers there, very difficult for me to make sense of when you poll bloomberg right now because he's attempting to do something we've have seen with any candidate, that's skipping iowa and skipping new hampshire, and skipping south carolina, nevada, and then trying to jump start everything. there's such an unknown in terms of who is going to emerge from the first four states. we always see somebody get incredible momentum coming out of those early states. the track record, by the way, of somebody who has won iowa and turned around and won new hampshire eight days later, four times that's happened in the nominating contest and all four times that candidate has gone on to win the nomination. that's the kind of momentum you can develop by winning early. >> and you never underestimate

the unknown. i think also what steve's saying, those democrats, they want their core values and they want to represent them, but at the same time they want stability as well and that may end up being joe biden. >> they want to win. >> exactly. still ahead on "morning joe," more numbers to show you including how in those hypothetical 2020 matchups president trump wins with men but loses big with women and what that could mean. also, presidential candidate julian castro joins the conversation. he's hammering the dnc over its primary process. as we mentioned, the top democrat in the u.s. senate chuck schumer joins us just ahead. but first let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. we have a snowstorm and ice storm breaking now the what will be in the northeast tomorrow. worst of it has moved through the mid atlanta region. the main roads within the beltway are just fine. this storm is now extending for almost 2,000 miles. it's actually in two pieces, but

we go from witcha cha, kansas city and st. louis got hit yesterday. as far as the snow forecast goes, we're just about done in kansas city. st. louis could pick up another three to 6 inches in the son top of the 4 inches yesterday. and this red is 8 inches just south of st. louis in the is interstate 70. that's the most treacherous drive today. all the way through ohio. then tonight we see the snow and ice breaking out through pennsylvania, southern tier of new york, the hudson valley and cass skil catskills could pick up 7 inches of snow. as far as ice goes, a little bit of ice in the areas of p pennsylvania. i don't think we'll get power outages but it will be slippery. and mississippi, alabama, we could see a few strong tornadoes

later on though afternoon. even though it's the middle of december, that can happen. as far as airports go, watch out st. louis and memphis. most significant delays and minor delays possible today, philly and d.c. but come tomorrow morning we could see major airport problems in areas like new york city. earlier we saw snowflakes near the capital. looks like it's tapering off a little bit for your morning drive. we'll be right baht bacck. you're watching "morning joe." c you're watching "morning joe." ♪oh there's no place like home for the holidays.♪

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this thing will come to the senate and it will die quickly and i doll everything i cwill d do to make it die quickly. i'm trying to do everything i can to give a signal that i have made up my mind. >> is it appropriate to be voicing your opinion even before this gets to the senate as a trial? >> well, i must think so because i'm doing it.

>> some people have said i won't vote for impeachment. some house members have said i will not vote for an impeachment. let me tell you, please don't say that until you understand what wur votiyou're voting on. members of the senate have said i understand everything there is to know about this case and i won't vote to impeach the president. please allow the facts do the talking. nobody knows whether the president -- what the articles of impeachment are. people have made up their mind in a political fashion that will hurt this country long term. if you don't -- if you can't vote for impeachment, give us the due justice to the case. don't decide the case before the case is in. and that bothers me greatly. i have clearly made up my mind. i'm not trying to hide the fact that i have disdain for the accusations in the process so i don't need any witnesses. >> wow, that was another edition of our favorite game, whatever

happened to lindsey graham. >> you know, the most disgraceful part of it is the fact that he had actually, donny, he actually is proud of the fact. he's actually bragging about the fact that he's not going to be fair. he seems to take great pride in the fact that he is going to be everything that he hated back when i knew him. what he would say about democrats, he'd say you're jurors, how can you make a decision before the first bit of evidence is in? and, again, i mean, lindsey now is bragging about the fact that he's going to be biased and he's not going to listen to any facts. >> or follow the law. >> and he's not going to follow the facts, he's not going to follow the laws, he doesn't care what it is, and he thinks it's fun. >> i what's so sad is they are legislators and before this process begins they take an oath to act as jurors. but like anything else nothing

is sacred. and once again, joe, you and i have bandied about this a lot, is how do these people not understand how history going view them? it's so clear and obvious that to sell their soul to the delve this way, we know how you're going to vote but to thumb your nose that way and denigrate the oath you're about to take is quite sad. >> and let's bring in also msnbc contributor and national political reporter for axios, jonathan swan and mike barnicle, i asked you -- >> whose wife is 30 ninth powerful in the world, that's all. >> she's powerful. >> mike, you look at lindsey graham there, and, again, he thinks it's cute. he's laughing about it. he's bragging about the fact that he's biased. that he's not going to do all the things that he claimed was so necessary to save the republican republic in 1998.

and lindsey is making matters much worse. he's an officer of the wore the. he worst. he's a lawyer, he tried cases so he understand how's despicable this is. he also is the chairman of the senate judiciary committee. and, yet, there he is in doha mocking the entire situation and saying, yeah, i'm going to be biased. i don't want any facts, despite the fact just a couple months ago he was saying, well, if there were to be quid pro quo proven, then i would have real problems. well, the quid pro quo was proven. the payoff, the attempted bribery was proven and yet here's lindsey graham making a big joke about the fact that he has no respect -- well, for anything. >> joe, if it was your intent to make this whole episode more

depressing, you've just done it with that introduction here. i mean, donny -- donny mentioned something that is really playing a part in this. you know, how will history view these people? unfortunately, we are now in an age and a culture where there is no more history. there is no more truth. it's all within the next hour, it's all within what's on your phone. there's no more conscience in the united states senate, really. we're going to have chuck schumer on in a little bit and he is presiding over an impeachment trial or he's, you know, one part of an impeachment trial where the decision's been ordained, it's already preordained. we knows what's going to happen. it's never happened before in the united states of america that something as legitimate and serious as impeachment is being dealt with in such a fife loriv manner. >> and let's go toto jonathan s

who is the group reporting on this? >> i was the one who interviewed lindsey graham and he said that if he saw a quid pro quo he would be very, very disturbed and then two days after that interview mick mulvaney gets up and says at the press conference, yeah, there's a quid pro quo, everyone does it. we went back to lindsey graham and said, okay, you said two days ago to me on camera that if there was a quid pro quo you'd be -- mick mulvaney stood on stage and acknowledged it, does that change your view? and he said, no. so from that point forward, it was very clear what was going to happen there. though i will just say something, which is lindsey graham is simply saying outloud what, you know, this whole farce that most people haven't made up their mind and they're deliberate saying farce. i understand the need to kind of present that for niceties and to

sort of appear that you're going through this process. but it's just not true even when you hear house democrats say i still haven't made up my mind. almost -- 95%, 98%, it's just not true. but back to the yes men, let me tell you. so we have done a story, the office of manage men and budgme is one of the most under covered parts of the administration. when president trump continually detectives frustrated that he doesn't get what he wants, when he asks his lawyers do this for me and they say, no, that's illegal, we can't do that, he then turns to what we call the yes men. and they have embraced that month nicker. it's russ vogue. you just go through the list of things. from reprogramming pentagon money to build the wall, which is now tied up in courts and the white house counsel opposed that, so slowing down the

disbursement of aid to puerto rico, to holding up foreign aid from not just ukraine, multiple countries, lebanon, various other countries. president trump tweeted about wildfires which was basically forest pu forest pungency. but i'm told they're trying to come up with a policy to attach some kind of kconditionality to funds to california in wlien that tweet. if you line it up, it's a striking picture and we've done that in that story. >> it really is. you can find that in axios. jonathan swan, thank you so much. and coming up, a democratic congressman who has been vocally opposed to impeaching president trump is reportedly planning on leaving the party. house judiciary chairman jerry

nadler is brushing it off. we'll talk about what it means for democrats as we head for an impeachment vote this week. "morning joe" will be right back. this week. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪oh there's no place like home for the holidays.♪ ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪ we go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. hour 36 in the stakeout.

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all right. joe, just for you and ed, "the wall street journal" editorial board is writing about the british election. it's called britain's red alert for democrats. and since the labor party leathered to t lurched to the left, it lost the party. the reasons are a warning to americans democrats. mr. corbyn offered more spending in spades in this campaign, plus promises to radically reshape the british economy. he promised to nationalize utilities, railways and even broadband service, to tax private schools, to impose new taxes on homeowners, and to create a new higher education entitlement.

the progressive in lariat cheered, but the working base saw through it. they felt they could be bought off when what they really want after the brexit referendum is respect. all should be cause for the u.s. election for the democrats. the presidential candidates have responded to the 2016 defeat by trying to buy off president trump's working class base with corbyn-like taxes, spending, and identity politics. british voters didn't buy it and the danger for democrats is that americans won't either. >> so -- >> and jumping into the democratic fray, is a candidate who many like, but wants to buy the election. i mean, is using his own money to fund it. >> he's about as far from jeremy corbyn as possible. >> i know. >> i'm wondering, ed luce, how many parallels do you draw?

i couldn't help but see in the m midlands and the north of great britain those working-class towns going conservative and thinking about how republicans like me were shocked that in 2016 wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania went republican again sort of deindustrialized northern towns. >> and, of course, the flip side of that coin is very posh areas in the cities in london remaining labor, a radical labor program. so the class sort of confusion or muddle now in british politics is complete. i think it's slightly cherry picking editorial, but what they didn't mention was that boris johnson ran a campaign what he calls one nation toyism. and in addition to brexit, he would spend lots and -- billions

and billions more pounds on the national health service, invest billions in infrastructure in the north of england. it's all quite familiar if you remember trump's 2016 campaign. and in other words, he kind of neutralized the originality of jeremy kcorbyn's big public spending because boris johnson was promising big public spending as well. so it is a slightly more nuanced picture than simply drawing a straight line between jeremy corbyn's defeat and saying elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are unelectable. i think it's a more subtle picture than that. >> and how interesting, steve kornacki, the parallels that are trying to be drawn here corbyn and american democrats when actually maybe the tightest parallel is between big spending

tories and big spending republicans. donald trump sounding a lot like a liberal. doesn't matter, i don't care what social security and medicare's financial situation have i'm not going to touch them. there you are had in great britain last week boris johnson winning not as a conservative, but as a big-spending tori. >> it's really interesting which i go back about 20 years here when i was figuring out politics in the world, think the trendy thing in politics here and maybe internationally too, supposedly the magic formula was you needed to be economically conservative and fiscally liberal. i think that guided the consensus for how elections are won and lost. and now what it points to there's a politically powerful combination that i don't think has been tapped by politicians really from either party. and that is something that gets a little bit more to the left on economics and a little bit more to the right on cultural

questions. and i think that's -- what ed is just describing there in terms of what boris johnson ran on, he put labor, he put jeremy corbyn out there by himself on cultural issues and social issues, but then claimed labor's turf on economic questions that he had big expansive safety net and big investment in infrastructure. he talked about climate change. things you don't hear and take that back to the united states, republicans don't talk about it. you have a democratic party on cultural issues off to the left. you have a republican party despite how donald trump campaigned in 2016, did not exploit those openings that he has exposed on economic questions. so i think here and in britain there's a combination that hasn't been tried a lot that either party could seize and make head way with. >> it's a great point, because we did all grow up hearing that the way to win was to be fiscally conservative and economically liberal. i remember chris matthews once saying that the state of

pennsylvania was different from all other states because the way to win there was to be socially conservative and economically liberal. well, if that is the case, and it looks like pennsylvania was the future, showing the way tornado the future not only for the u.s., but also for britain where you spend all the money you can, you spend yourself into debt, but, you know, you sound social -- socially conservative on a variety of issues and that does seem, at least for now, to be the winning formula. >> steve kornacki and ed luce, thank you both for being oth the sh both for being on the show this morning. still ahead, a moment of joy on a difficult day. now the new town high school football team is helping the town heal seven years after the tragedy at sandy hook elementary school. you'll love this story. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. ove this story. "morning joe" is back in just a moment.

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seven years after the

unbearable loss at sandy hook elementary school, a football championship is reuniting the town of newtown, connecticut, and helping a community heal. nbc's kate snow has the story. >> reporter: it unfolded in dramatic fashion. with just second left, the score tied. >> steps into a throw. >> reporter: but 36-yard pass caught making the newtown night hawks state companies. a big win on a day that carries too many painful memories. exact exactly 2010 years ago, many children lost their lives. many wore green in their honor. on the field saturday several players who once attended sandy hook elementary. ben lost his little brother jack in the shooting. jack was only six but loved football. his face painted here with the new york giants logo. he was buried in the team's

jersey. on saturday night, his big brother helped bring home their first championship since 1992. >> it's a tremendous year and football in general and sports? general have the ability to bring people together. >> it's just the elation that we felt emotional elation was just incredible. >> reporter: for a community that suffered so much, a unifying moment that delivered joy. >> you know, mike, that -- that town that suffered just an inexplicable loss, the most horrifying thing that i can think of in so long. you know, they've been recovering through the years. they've been using their pain to help others. we've been to some benefits and been so moved by their strength. but it was a nice -- it was a very nice night for a town that

has gone through hell and not just from the horrid tragedy, but, you know, from conspiracy theorists that drag -- drag their names through the mud, conspiracy they'orists who are elevated by journalists who aren't journalists at all. conspiracy theorists bragging in lawsuits now about how they were proud about what they did. this was a nice night after so many years of hell. >> joe, just the startling number in kate snow's report, 20 children, babies, shot and killed in their school in a moment that everyone who was lucky enough to be alive today knows where they were and what they were doing when they heard the news of what happened that day in newtown. and yet the story is terrific.

it's a warm story. it makes you feel good. but still that town is recovering and that's the -- that's the tense, is recovering. will always be recovering. because you never fully heal from what happened that day. and you're right, i mean, the number of people on the far right mostly who tended to say things publicly that this was made up, that it never happened and yet here we are seven years and a few days later, it did happen. and it will always be there. >> and, yeah. and, mika, again, it's just -- it was a moving night for the town. but, again, you think about the horrors of that day and you think about the sleaze merchants who prayed eyed on those famili with conspiracy theories and those who promoted in mainstream media those conspiracy theories

for cheap ratings, just absolutely despicable. they need to search deep within their soul for what they have done as well. >> i don't think you'll find the a soul. >> exactly. >> it was a beautiful moment, though, the boy who -- with the final catch, i know i don't know football too well. >> he had like three seconds left. >> that ball was being carried by an angel, that football. and it was an incredible play for a young man who had lost his little brother at sandy hook. and to be able to be deliver that, look at him, for the town really. must have been a good moment of victory. a small victory. >> yeah. >> mike barn knack will, donny deutsch, jonathan lemire and adrienne elrod are all still with us. and joining the conversation, nbc news correspondent hidedeidd editor at large of the conservative website, bill

kristol joins us. should we put the polls out again? they're so staggering in terms of bad news for the president. >> they really. and you hear hacks who work for donald trump in the news media saying, you know, writing these up and saying, oh, this has just been horrible for democrats. and, oh, nancy pelosi has just absolutely misjudged the electorate. she actually hasn't. numbers from fox news are so devastating that they may not move a single republican that's voting, probably won't because they all run scared, but they will have aprn impact in the general election. >> you get a sense of where people are here. 50% of registered voters think the president should be impeached and removed from office. that's up one point since october. 4% think he should be impeached but not removed from office. 41% do not think he should be impeached at all.

when being loing at tlooking ats of impeachment broughtpy house democrats, 53% believe president trump abused the power of his office. 34% do not. 48% believe he obstructed justice, 34% believe he did not. and when they could have brot forward articles of impeachment against the president, 50% believe he obstructed jess, 37% do not. 45% believe the president committed bribery, 37% do not. when asked if it was standard practice for presidents to ask foreign leaders that investigate political rivals, only 22% said it was typical. among republicans, 33% thought this practice was normal. this is a simple equation to make. do you shakedown a political leader for dirt onny your political rival and is that good for the united states of america?

people can do that math. they can do that math. >> you just go through the numbers and they're just devastating. bill kristol, 54% of voters, according to fox news, think dump should be impeached. 50% think he should be impeached and removed from office. 41% don't. a majority also believe he abused the powers of his office and the majority also believes he obstructed justice and 40 you 5% to 37% believe he committed acts of bribery. only in donald trump's republican party would there be politicians and hacks in the media saying these are good numbers for this president. >> yeah. as you know, joe, those numbers have changed quite a lot in the last three months. the numbers who wanted trump impeached three months ago before the ukraine story broke were high 30s based on the

mueller report, below 40%. which shows that people for all that we're incredibly polarized and tribal and most people aren't listening to evidence perhaps, some people are. ten%, 15% of the american public are heard, read about what happened with ukraine, heard some of the testimony before congress -- before the house and changed their mind. which is why mcconnell and trump especially mcconnell, wants to shut it down so quickly in the senate. is they are nervous. for all the talk about now all the movement's ended is what the political pundits are saying, it's 54/41 for impeachment, but nothing can change, everyone's locked in. i'm not so sure. what if we had testimony in the senate? which is why i think it's important to get the truth out there and let the public see what happened, to have a serious trial in the senate and key to that will be do some republican senators break from mitch mcconnell and constitute a kind of constitutional caucus, if you

will, work with democrats across the aisle and try to say let's have a reasonable trial, controlled, not craziness, but with real witnesses on each side, enough time to consider the evidence and for the public to consider the evidence. and maybe at the end of the day no one changes his vote -- or her vote and that is fine, incidentally, that is fine. but let's have a serious constitutional process. for me, that's the big question once the house ex-peevimpeaches wednesday, do some republicans break from the sham to have a trial? >> and mcconnell wants to rush it, it seems for good reason. donald trump talking about how he wants to drag this out. the longer you drag things out, the more the unexpected can happen. the more a court can rule that john bolton needs to testify or mick mulvaney needs to testify. it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. but, jonathan lemire, it seems donald trump and a lot of his top aides are whistling past the graveyard and suggesting they want, according to your

reporting, a long, drawnout, showy trial where a lot of bad things can happen. and, again, a guy like, you know, thom tillis who's only at 31%, 32% in north carolina, he's got to be thinking oh my god, this can only get worse for me every day. i mean, you look at a guy like thom tillis, this impeachment since he's so week, this could actually cost republicans a seat in north carolina and make chuck schumer the next majority leader. >> sure. it puts a lot of republican senators in vulnerable positions this trial coming up. but you're right. the president, he's decided he is working on vantage point that impeachment has become a political advantage for him and he thinks that a trial, he wants it long, he things inks it will o thinks it will air out to the american public. he likes the idea of a spectacle and drama.

he is pushing for weeks' long trial where there will be witnesses called. the witness easy wants called are names like hunter biden and the whig will blowstle-blower t. the whistle-blower has not been identified publicly. but that is coming up with resistance for republicans who worry and just injects variables into it. it adds a degree of uncertainty in an outcome that does seem preordained. mcconnell has expressed a preference for a shorter trial, maybe a week or two starting on january 6th. and even lindsey graham has made it clear he knows his mind is made up, he's backing the president. he even said yesterday or the day before in an interview that he actually thinks it's okay for a president to seek -- have another country investigate a political foe. but even he yesterday said in an interview in a moment of an audience of one where he was trying to send a message to the president said, you know, i

don't think we need to call witnesses here. because as much as you want to call someone like a hunter biden, suddenly witnesses are injected into a senate trial that maybe mike pompeo is going to have to testify or john bolton. nothing can googood can come ofs what he told the president. we're telling you you're going to get acquitted, don't mess with the process. now history will judge them for having this sham trial, but that's the political message they're trying to send to the white house. >> don no, i, we had donny, we disagreement last hour, you think these numbers are good for the president. >> just don't underestimate. >> let me give you the numbers. 54% of voters, not americans, voters, 54% of voters think donald trump should be impeached. 50% believe he should be impeach and removed from office, 41%

think he should stay. 53% believe he abused, was guilty of abusing power in office. a majority 50% believe he obstructed justice. only 37% said he did not. and 45% of americans to 37% believe he was guilty of bribery. a plurality or a majority believe donald trump is guilty as charged by the democrats in these articles of impeachment. how is that good news? >> i didn't say the numbers are absolutely good. what i said i was disappointed and surprised was when you go back to october, bill, to your point you said it moved ten. by october the ukraine scandal was out there. since we've paraded the most credible witnesses and brought thissing t this thing to life, it hasn't moved. i would be lying if i said i wasn't disappointed after the

last couple of months and after the testimony and really seeing blood and guts attached to it, it didn't move. but i think adrienne brought up the most important thing, independents went from 38 to 45 that. was the biggest jump anywhere. the other final thought, the word every time it is said, that i learn forward, is bribery because it's a criminal word. and obstruction of congress and abuse of power, yes, those are negative terms. but i love that bribery word i love that extortion word, because those are criminal words. i know this were hesitant to put them in because they couldn't prove the criminality. but as you move into the general election, those are the words, we have a president that bribed, that extort and he will extort your health care and extort education. he's extorted the tax process by basically stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. so those are really meaty words that i hope we take forward. >> so, heidi, i want to get a sense of what you're looking at and perhaps more the sense as to

why they didn't expand the scope of the impeachment charges given fact that there is so much evidence. >> well, because they did not want to go down the rabbit hole of having republicans say, we can't try this case because we still have a lot of this caught up in the courts in terms of don mcgahn testifying before the senate. they wanted to keep it tight and narrow and easy for the public to understand. of course what we're now seeing is that despite that, there's still some profound misunderstandings among the public about what actually transpired here. we saw our "meet the press" panel of republicans who still believe falsely that this was about one phone call, despite all of the evidence showing a pattern of withholding aid that was congressionally approved, that was approved by the dod, and that actually was approved by donald trump himself in the years 2017 and 2018 and that was just held after joe biden

announced his run for the presidency. i also wanted to weigh in on these numbers, because i think there's another really important number here that could tell us why a short trial could also be very damaging not for the president, but for the entire republican party. because in this poll it shows the intensity here is really on the side of democrats believing that democrats are acting in good faith here. by 16-point margin, people believe that republicans are acting politically in protecting trump more than democrats are acting politically in impeaching him. so what you have here is let's game this out. let's say you have a short senate trial. these cases will continue to wind their way through the courts. we may hear from john bolton who will have a book. lev parnas wants to datalk. his tax returns could come out. there's all kinds of things that could happen now and the 2020

elections. you already have 54% of the american public who believes he should be impeached. a year from now, who's bog to be more angry? the base? the trump base who's going to believe when the president says i've been exonerated or the democratic base which already believes that their party is acting in good faith, and, by the way, the independents seem to agree with them here and think that basically the president was allowed to walk without even a fair trial being held. so i do think that this poll tells us a lot about which way the wind could blow if mcconnell does not allow what the publicer is seefs perceives as a fair tr >> all right. heidi, thank you so much. bill kristol, thank you as well. president trump wants to call witnesses in the impeachment trial, so does chuck schumer. senator schumer joins the conversation next on "morning joe." s the conversation next on "morning joe."

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some people have said i won't vote for impeachment. some house members have said i will not vote for an impeachment. let me tell you, please don't say that until you understand what you're voting on. members of the senate have said i understand everything there is about this case and i won't vote to impeach the president. please allow the facts to do the talking. nobody knows whether the president -- what the articles of impeachment are. people have made up their mind in a political fashion that will hurt this country long term. it you don't -- if you can't vote for impeachment, give us the due justice to the case. don't decide the case before the case has end. and this bothers me greatly. this thing will come to the senate and it will die quickly and i will do everything i can to make it die quickly. i am trying to give a pretty clear signal i have made up my

mind. i'm not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here. >> is it appropriate to be voicing your opinion even before this gets to the senate as a trial? >> well, i must think so because i'm doing it. >> let's bring in right now senate majority minority leader democrat chuck schumer of new york and senator. >> good morning. good morning. >> good morning. obviously when you see lindsey graham there you're not talking about a back venture that is saying that he's -- he's going to vote the way he's going to vote before he sees the first bit of evidence. and obviously a massive hypocrite by just judge him on the two clips. you have the the senate judiciary chairman, how low of a point is this for that committee that their chairman is sinking to such depths?

>> look, i think his comments demean him. it says far more about lindsey graham than anything about this trial. and lindsey should remember, and he knows darn well this is a serious and solemn obligation. the charges against the president that the house has put together are very, very serious. and to say you won't look at the facts, look at the evidence makes no sense. we want the facts to come out. we don't want to have a dilatory trial. we don't want to have a biased trial. we don't want a trial where extraneous issues of their side or our side are brought in. what we've asked for this morning is really guided by joe friday from drag net for those who remember him, just the facts, ma'am. and that's what we want. the facts. the four witnesses we've asked for are the documents we've asked for are directly dispositive on what the actual facts were. now, the house came up with a whole lot, but there's some of my republican colleagues who say these charges are serious but i'm not sure there's enough to

evidence. that's why these people should come. i hope this letter i've sent now to every one of my colleagues, democrat and republican, i hope some of my republican colleagues will say, in all fairness, we ought to hear these people. there's not a single reason that has been given why the four witnesses we've asked for, white documents we've asked for should not be presented. i don't know what they'll say. maybe they'll be exculpatory to president trump. but to not have them is to engage in a cover-up. is to say we're afraid and the american people will ask of president trump and people like mitch mcconnell if he doesn't have a full and fair trial, what are you hide something what are you hiding? >> you know, mitch mcconnell obviously wants to have the no-show trial. he wants to make it as fast as possible. the president of the united states wants a show biz trial, according to jonathan lemire, wants this thing to be dragged out as long as possible. is there a possibility of common ground between you and the

president of the united states on making this trial longer so actually we can get all the facts? >> well, we don't want it dilatory and we don't want all these shiny object extraneous issues conspiracy theories. it lindsey graham wants to pursue conspiracy theories, can he do that in the judiciary committee. if does he it here, he demeans the senate, he demeans the constitution, and the american people, they're one of the judges. are these senators, democrat and republican, looking for the facts and looking for fairness or are they trying to divert, are they trying to cover up? that's a fundamental decision that every senator must ask him or herself. >> you know, you talk about the american people vir to get yo, your numbers that we've been going over this morning. 54% of americans want him etch

peechd a impeached. 53% to 38% believe he was guilty of abusing the powers of his office. 50% to 37%, again, another majority, believe he was guilty of obstructing justice. and the get this, a clear plural alt, 35% to 47% of voters say donald trump was guilty of bribery. what's your reaction to that? >> well, my rhode islae-election the election had what we tried to put forward was something that was fair, that got all the facts out, that honed in on witness who's have direct knowledge of these charges against president trump. and they should come out. you know, joe, i was very moved by those seven congress members, all of whom have served in the military or cia, all of whom had who had been in districts that trump had won and some of whom

thought they might lose their re-election if they called for impeachment. but they thought there was a duty for the congress, for the house to go forward and pursue this inquiry. that's the kind of tone there ought to be here. and i hope we get the same measured dedication to country from some of our republican colleagues. they privately express concern about the president and what he's done, well, we're not asking them to vote yes or no. she shouldn't decide that yet. we're asking them to stand up with us for a fair trial. you know, the american -- the expression we always say, the americans are entitled and the president's entitled to a fair and speedy trial. not dilatory, ball tut all the must come out. not what mcconnell is talking about, you argue, we argue and put it to bed. these witnesses are vital to determining exactly what has hand a happened and to see if the house-strong case will hold up.

>> so i assume this week you're going to start negotiations with mcconnell on the shape of the trial? >> two weeks ago i went to be mcconnell and said i'm willing to start talk about it. he didn't talk to me. he didn't ask to talk to me. then he starts spinning out his own theories talking to the republican caucus and saying he's going to do just what the president wants. so we put this out so we could set up the ground rules for a fair discussion. i hope now he will talk to me. he said that yesterday after we put thought report. and i hope we can come to an agreement about a fair trial. >> let's say he's willing to let some of these witnesses testify, whether it be mick mulvaney or john bolton. would you be willing to sign off on republican witnesses to -- whether that be, perhaps, hunter biden or the whistle-blower? >> look, i am going to use as the standard do these folks have knowledge of the facts presented by the house some these witnesses do. i'm not going to get into a negotiation here in public, but

witnesses that are conspiraextrn other side shouldn't be in the trial. i don't know a single person does hunter biden know anything about the specific facts that were presented here, not once. so what is he doing at this trial? >> you know, one of the reasons that you've been so successful in the senate and the senate leadership is you can count. so right now, according to your count, you lose, right? >> well, we don't know. i mean, that's why we're doing this. there are republicans who are worried about what's happening in the country. there are republicans who say these facts are troubling but maybe we need to see more. and so my hope is that they will go along with this, we will move forward with the witnesses and documents we asked for, and then we'll see where the chips fall. i don't know where they will fall. >> so your travel schedule within new york state is crazy. >> yes. i love new york. >> you do all --

>> i love buffalo after yesterday even more. >> a big win. but when you go out there, how do you explain the lack of fervor for impeachment among ordinary-working americans. >> i think people are troubled by the president's way of operating the presidency. i hear this from people who even might be closer to his views that the way he conducts himself. when they say we don't like him tweeting, that's not just tweeting, that's his behavior, his conduct, his bullying, his dishonesty. and so i think when you look at something like this, if you say let's just get the facts, let's have a fair trial, most americans, including a good number of republicans, would go along. they would. >> senator, i want to put you on the spot and you're going to do the campaign for the democrats for a democratic impeachment. we probably know how this will go and we will have an impeached president. how do the democrats take that

versus just leaving the pocket and turn it to the general election and move it to kitchen table issues? that, to me, is the big challenge where this is a thing but you're not going to get him out of office on this in and of it self. how do you take that stain and move it to a bigger placely. >> think if the president persists in covering up, persists in not having the kind of witnesses we've talked about, it's going to hurt him with the american people. i can't make a prediction electorally nor do i want to as it comes to this. but the people do want to hear the facts. >> i'm saying taking this case and moving -- >> but, yeah, just to answer your question, donny, we have always said that our number one -- we felt, the house and those seven in our emblah matic of the house, felt an obligation to move forward because you can't have a president abuse power and violate the law because if you do nothing, what he will do will be worse and what future presidents will do worse. we're not supposed to have a king or a monarch, not some

inwant it my wsomeone i want it and that's that. but that's a separate issue for the americans day to day. the ability to pay health care. here's an interesting fact. a poll that i saw said which statement do you agree with me. in the past two years donald trump has created millions of good new jobs or in the past two years i find it harder to pay the bills? three quarters of americans agree with the second. we have to make it easier to pay those bills to deal with the cost of the health care and prescription drugs, to deal with the costs of college, to deal with the kinds of things that average americans live with day by day. we have always been that party and that should be our number one focus, regardless of this impeachment. but it doesn't mean it can't do both. one should not -- the obligation to rule of law and the constitution is this. the obligation to the american people and making their lives better is -- is an additional issue that's probably more

important to them and every bit as important to us. >> senator, heidi has a question for you. >> hi, heidi. >> you are all far away in that distant city of washington, d.c. >> well, welcome back, i guess. >> i'm here in new york, still. >> i see you. >> i'll be with you in a few hours. >> senator, i think most americans would agree to that to have a fair trial you need to talk to the people who where are involved in the act. bolton has through his attorney already told us that he knows more. mick mulvaney is withholding documents documenting the paper trail and when forced to release them blacking them out. so, if you cannot get that fair trial, should speaker pelosi withhold the articles? we now have very prominent scholars, including larry tribe who advised house judiciary democrats saying if you can't get that fair trial you should withhold the articles. would you support her doing that? >> well, that's premature. i am -- i am hopeful we can get a fair trial.

that's why we put out this document. and i spent a lot of time thinking about this and crafting it so no one could say it leaned one way or the other, again, just the facts, ma'am. and so let's hope that happens. let's hope that leader mcconnell rises to the occasion. and even if he doesn't, a good number of republicans, you only need four republicans to add to the 47 democrats to say, rushing this through and having each side make its argument and threat go away when these facts are yearning, yearning to come out and could come out with the cooperation of a handful of republicans, i'm hopeful that can happen. and then everyone prejudges what will happen in the future after that happens, we'll see where it goes from there. >> senator chuck schumer, thank you very much if the was great to see you at the big apple half marathon. >> you were running dint recognize you. she was in a beanie all bundled up and she was doing the jingle -- the jingle bell run.

[ laughter ] >> happy run, mika. >> i had fun. >> i was just giving high fives to the runners. i'm not doing the run. >> i could see. i was like oh, my god, it's schumer. but honestly, can he not run. it's night and day. makeup. >> very much mika. and then i looked at you, i said you. [ laughter ] >> she took a picture, joe. >> yes, i have it. >> you can save it for posterity. >> i saw the picture and you were bundled up but you did really well. >> i was okay. >> your daughter did great. >> my daughter did amazing. >> your friends did great. >> and her friend won. there you go. i was way in the back. coming up, we'll dig deep into the new polling with this important data point. among men, donald trump has a two point lead over joe biden. but among women, trump is down 15 points to the former vice president. that conversation next on "morning joe." that conversation next on "morning joe." we call it the mother standard of care.

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all right. 38 past the hour. earlier we showed you that five of the top 2020 democratic presidential contenders all currently beat president trump in the latest fox news polling.

when breaking down those hypothetical matchups by gender, it's interesting. president trump wins with men but loses with women. among men, the closest race is between president trump and joe biden, 47 to 45%. bernie sanders loses to trump by a larger margin, 43% to 50%. bloomberg comes in at 41 while trump gets 46% of the vote. buttigieg loses by ten. 39% to 49%. and the biggest victory for trump among men comes against elizabeth warren, 38% to 52%. and when looking at hypothetical matchups among women, president trump loses in every race. he loses to bernie sanders 54-36. against elizabeth warren 53-38. against joe biden 31-36. michael bloomberg beats trump

38-45. and pete buttigieg also comes away have a victory 47-36. adrienne, what stands out overall? women voting against trump makes sense. but what candidates and numbers stand out yo to you? >> overall the numbers substantiate oud stand out. women are overwhelming supporting democrats across the board and you've got to think about the fact, mika, that white suburban women really made the determination in 2016. >> yes. >> and fortunately didn't go toord hillary clint toward hillary clinton's favor. but in 2018 they were the reason why women had historic wins up and down the ballot. we have over a hundred women in the united states congress. only a fraction of them are republicans, the majority of democrats. there's a reason for that. we could spend a good hour

analyzing why women are not supporting trump ranging from his misogynistic comments to his constant threats to take away women's pre reproductive health rights, constant threats to roe v. wade. there's a vl millimillion reaso but the republican party has so much work do when it comes to atrabling attracting women and getting them back in their camp. i don't see anything happening now and 20 went to make those changes. >> i mentioned earlier that the trump senior campaign officials had a briefing last week and then were very confident as they looked into 2020, question debate whether they had reason to be. but one thing they owned up, the president has seen his support drop among women since election day 2016, mike barnicle. do you see any scenario can he turn this around and the problem he has with woman, does that drag on the republicans where

some of those vulnerable senators we've been talking about could be in trouble next year too? >> the answer to your first question, coturn it around? no. you've seen the internals some of of these polls. we've all seen the interms of the internals of these polls. they're subsections of how the women are going to vote. suburban women in this country, there's a number i saw a week ago, 28% of suburban women who were polled of all colors, religions, everything, 28% answered the question under any circumstance could you consider voting for donald trump? 28% said absolutely not, not ever considering to vote for donald trump. so he's got a huge problem. >> yeah. to that point, message to democrats and look at 2018 also, if it's women and it's suburban women, it's health care, education, it's kids in cages, stay on those issues, those heart string issues, those kitchen table issues, you will

win as long as we don't run some crazy hard line have some there's another significant factor among the many you just mentioned, it is this. suburban women, again, when asked whether they want your children to grow up to be like donald j. trump, no. his behavior, no. >> but you can't make it just about -- that was the mistake that hillary made in 2016, making it about his behavior. you have to bring it back to how his behavior affects you. bring it back to the voter issues, 2018 told us how do it. >> it's baked in the cake. it really is. his behavior is baked in the cake. we saw that after access hollywood. we've seen it time and time again. it's how does d his poll simeic people? i want to ask adrienne, some of the senators, the ones like thom tillis again, we've been talking about how weak he is in north carolina, surprised the republicans aren't panicking about him sitting at 31%, 32%.

cory gardner, the same. susan collins, we could go down the list. martha mcsally could win, but it seems like she's going to be in for the fight of her political life again this year. so how does that impact for the suburbs, you know, north carolina is growing into one giant suburb in the middle of the state. how does that impact all of those at-risk candidates who could help make chuck schumer, the guy we just talked about, a guy like thom tillis could help chuck schumer become majority leader because is so weak right now. >> he is so weak and that's why think you're seeing a lot of senators right now, joe, keeping their powder dry by not just saying how they're going to vote in the impeachment process. because they're looking at those numbers, they're going to look over the next few weeks, they're going to look into january when the trial starts. they're going to look to see how those numbers with those very

key voters, independent voters, suburban swing voters, they're going to look to see how the needle moves in those subsectors of their electorate. again, we've talked about this in the polls this morning, heidi just mentioned it. there are a lot of voters out there who are turned off by the notion that lindsey graham and some senators who are attacking far to the right already saying they've made up their mind. they're not going to be an independent juror, they're not going to wait to make their determination based on a trial. they've already made up their mind and people are very turned off by that. i think that's why you're seeing a lot of these senators keeping their powder dry. we'll see how this plays out, but this is not by any stretch a home run for some of those senators in those key swing districts. >> all right. and while we're looking at genders, speaking of women, a shout out to my good friend, our good friend, anne finucane. she was named one of forbes

magazine powerful women, like bar none. unbelievable. ann joins the like of angela merkel, nancy pelosi, and oprah just to name a few. she's a force to be reckoned with and we're so proud of her. the list is named at not only celebrating the huge strides made by women this year, but also the great opportunity they have to define the decade ahead. and ann certainly is a huge part of that. so we're so glad to know her. coming up, it was caught on camera not once but twice but three times, army and navy officials are investigating controversial hand gestures that were flashed at this weekend's army/navy football game. what? the details of that new probe next on "morning joe." s of tha next on "morning joe."

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flashed what appeared to be to symbols of hate. nbc news correspondent ron mott has the details. >> reporter: it wasn't the final score of the game or even a visit from president trump that had people talking after saturday's army/navy annual rivalry football game. instead, it was these images of cadets and midshipmen in the stands flashing what appears to be hand signals that have lately become signals of hate. the gesture seen on camera multiple times, instantly sparking debate on social media. some calling it disgusting, appalling, and completely unacceptable, while others dismissing the gestures as part of a viral circle game, where players make an "okay si" sign,d if their friends see it, they punch them in the arm. both the antidefamation league say this signal has been appropriated by far-right groups. the hand shape supposedly forms the letters "w" and "p" for white power. the adl says far-right groups

use it partly because it's so ambiguous, so it's unclear whether the students knew what the symbol could represent. >> the hand signal is not a joke. white supremacists latched on to it. not as a symbol of irony, but as a symbol of their prevalence and air ability to put their message out there. >> reporter: the navy has appointed a preliminary inquiry officer to conduct an internal investigation, adding that those involved will be held appropriately accountable. west point's director of public affairs says they're looking into it and still do not know the intent of the cadets. experts say armed services have repeatedly struggled with right wing extremism in their ranks. >> there's a heightened sense of awareness for this type of activity in the last couple of years and a heightened sense of intolerance against it. >> jonathan lamir, you were at the game. what do you make of this? >> it's highly disturbing and troublesome. it takes away from what is really a sort of singular event on the sports calendar. the army/navy game, this is the 120th year they played. i was there as part of the press

pool with president trump. and you watch the players on the field, the cadets in the stands and think about how they're serving their country. it's a remarkable scene with a great atmosphere. you know, the president was -- we seem to have note how he's greeted at sporting events. he was cheered, although, questions were raised that he wore a campaign hat in the role of commander in chief while there. but certainly, i didn't witness with my own eyes these symbols. they were done behind the espn telecast that originated from the field in philadelphia. but it's highly disturbing. at the very least, these are people, cadets who are young enough to know -- one would assume, they're young enough and frankly online enough and internet savvy enough to know the connotations of that gesture. that whether they're playing this game, they had to know it could be interpreted as this white power symbol. and it's just disheartening to see. >> and mika, maybe the most disturbing aspect of it, whether it was meant to be what it's supposed to be is the fact that we saw this with two service academies playing each other.

the united states military academy at west point and annapolis. and that's one of the most disturbing aspects. >> of course. >> this has to be investigated. and now, finally this. a democratic congressman who has been outspokesman against president trump's impeachment is likely to leave the party. two democratic leadership sources tell nbc news that they expect new jersey congressman jeff van drew to change his registration to republican. congressman van drew flipped his republican-leaning swing district in 2018, but an internal poll obtained by nbc news earlier this month showed he would unlikely be re-elected next year. judiciary committee chairman jerry nadler weighed in on the topic yesterday. >> what he's reacting to is public polling that shows that he can't get re-nominated. his electorate in his district is 24% to re-nominate him and 60% to nominate somebody else.

>> meanwhile, the fallout, six of his congressional staffers resigned yesterday after it became apparent that the freshman congressman would be switching parties. in response to the news of the potential party switch, trump tweeted, quote, wow, that would be big. always heard jeff is very smart. congressman van drew did not immediately return a request for comment. still ahead, it's the beginning of another pivotal week in the impeachment proceedings. and that's not all. we have another democratic debate this week, as well. 2020 candidate, julian castro won't be on the stage, so how does he plan to get his message out to voters? he joins us ahead on "morning joe." and we've got some holiday music bumping to break. it's joe's song, "i don't want to go home for christmas." i still don't know why he doesn't want to do that. you can find it on the christmas songs play list right now on spotify. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. k. you wouldn't do only half of your daily routine

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politicians having an epiphany and suddenly supporting the kinds of tax increases on the rich or big business accountability that they have opposed under democratic presidents for a generation. >> a couple of the candidates out there attacking me and the very idea that i say we can unite the country. they seem to think america is so divided it can never be united again. >> i'm not betting my agenda on the naive hope that if democrats adopt republican critiques of progressive policies or make vague calls for unity, that somehow the wealthy and well-connected will stand down. >> and anyone who starts off saying we can't bring america together is just throwing in the towel. they're saying everything donald trump has been saying. the divider in chief. they're saying he's already won. but they're wrong. >> joe biden and elizabeth warren increasingly going after

each other on the campaign trail. we'll get into that dynamic just ahead. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, december 16th. with us, we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan la mmir. donny deutsch is with us. national political correspondent for nbc news and msnbc and author of "the red and the blue," steve kornacki with us. some interesting new polls to talk about this morning. and former chief of staff to the dccc and a former director of strategic communications for hillary clinton's presidential campaign, adrienne elrod. she's an msnbc contributor. also with us, u.s. national editor at the "financial times," edward loose is with us this morning. >> you know, ed, i'm sorry, i'm just talking too much about the british elections last week and it drove mika absolutely crazy. >> well. >> but give us a quick 30 seconds on what the earthquake -- the political earthquake in britain maintain last week.

and what you, someone who covers both british and american politics, what you think it means for american politics moving forward? >> well, the working class in britain have moved to the conservative party. they might have temporarily moved there. they might have just lent their vote to boris johnson's conservatives, but it is an earthquake in the sense that the -- that the industrial and post-industrial classes are voting for the conservatives, which is an extraordinary thing. if that has implications in the united states, it's that donald trump's 2016 showing with blue collar midwestern voters, you know, is something -- is a transatlantic trend that is quite profound and might prove to be enduring through 2020. the other thing is that the left, having lost a worst defeat since 1935, since before my parents were born, jeremy corbyn

is now essentially trying to rig the leadership election to replace him, by narrowing it down to candidates who share his fairly sectarian and utterly repudiated view of the world. so it doesn't auger well in terms of the left learning lessons about why they're losing. >> it's just unbelievable. jonathan lamir, the president yesterday spinning out of control again. this time in part attacking fox news, attacking fox news polls. numbers for him -- you know, it's so funny over the last couple of weeks. and we'll get into all of these polls. remarkable results for both donald trump, republicans, head-to-head matchups. also, of course, the democratic race. that's why we have the rage here, steve kornacki with us. he's going to be screaming this morning, kids, but that's all right. you can get some helpful nuggets in between the bursts of activity. the explosions.

but jonathan lamir, the president, obviously, didn't like the fact that by a nine-point margin, a majority of americans still want the president impeached and removed from office. >> that's very clear, joe. the president has been, even for him, rather active and perhaps out of control, one could say, on twitter in the last week or so. he set a record one day last week for most tweets and re-tweets in a day, well over 100. on the weekend, he was able to, he attended the army/navy game. i was there with him on saturday and sort of basked in that spectacle. it's always a very moving event every year that game. but on sunday returned to twitter, went after fox news, which he thinks is a news organization that he thinks should be on his side. he always criticizes it for ever having democrats on its air, criticizes its polling, which most in the industry think is a pretty strong polling department. we also saw him yesterday attack house speaker, nancy pelosi, and

make a joke about her teeth, which we're not quite clear what that was about, but not perhaps his most dignifiy eied tweet. and it goes to show the pressure he is facing. as much as the white house and his advisers believe that impeachment, this could be a political win for him, they're pointing to his internal polls that show it's playing pretty well -- that independents in battleground states are not into impeachment, so therefore playing pretty well for his re-election kmachances, he know what this means. on wednesday, i can't stress this enough, on wednesday, president trump is going to be the third president in history to be impeached. the house of representatives is going to impeach president trump. and he knows that is now a defining part of his legacy. that's the first line in his obituary, and even as he faces re-election and even as he still could win re-election, that's not going to go away. and we see that it's eating on him and it bursts -- his frustration bursts into public view time and time again, and particularly yesterday on twitter. >> all right. that's where nbc news has learned that senate minority

leader chuck schumer that has proposed calling former national security adviser john bolton and acting white house chief of staff, mick mulvaney, as witnesses in the senate impeachment trial. schumer sent a letter to majority leader mitch mcconnell late yesterday, proposing that the senate subpoena both bolton and mulvaney, along with two other people close to the president who may know about that delay of military aid to ukraine. in the letter, schumer writes, senate democrats believe strongly and i trust senate republicans agree that this trial must be one that is fair, that considers all of the relevant facts, and that exercises the senate's sole power of impeachment under the constitution with integrity and dignity. which brings us to those new numbers on impeachment. in the latest fox news poll, 50% of registered voters think the president should be impeached and removed from office. up 1 point since october. 4% think he should be impeached,

but not removed from office. and 41% do not think he should be impeached at all. when looking at the two articles of impeachment brought forward by house democrats, 53% think president trump abused the power of his office. 38% do not. 48% think he obstructed congress. 34% do not. and when looking at other charges house democrats could have brought forward as articles of impeachment against the president, 50% think that president trump obstructed justice. 37% do not. and 45% think the president committed bribery. 37 do not. when asked if it was standard practice for presidents to ask foreign leaders to investigate political rivals, only 22% said it was typical. among republicans, 33% thought this was normal practice. overall, pretty devastating numbers for the president, though. >> they are devastating. up and down the line.

don donny deutsch. my gosh, you look at all of the numbers, i'm still stunned by the top number, that, again, 50% still want him impeached and removed from office. only 41% don't. and, you know, 4% want him impeached, but not removed. those are devastating numbers. bill clinton never got into the 30s on impeachment. and i just think about the republicans that have been running around, telling everybody -- and also, trump hacks, who work for online newspapers, running around, writing columns saying that this has been horrible for the democrats and nancy pelosi. those numbers are devastating, up and down the line for any politician, republican or democrat alike. >> they are and they're

absolutely. but there's one thing to me that's a little bit of a gray clouds amongst the silver lining. that since october, which is basically when we paraded the most credible witnesses that you could possibly have, whether they were lifelong people that gave their service to the country, down to a gordon sondland, to me who was so incredibly incriminating, yet it hasn't moved. it's still at 50. it grew one. that's the concern to me, that it is so baked at this point. one would have thought, if we had gone back to october, that 50 or 49 would have been gone to 56, 57, 58. and the needle is not moving at all. although the numbers, when you look at them in their absolute terms, and the rage will give us some real deep insight, that is a great name, by the way. to me that they haven't moved is a bit concerning to me. >> yeah, steve kornacki, let's go through the numbers and talk about the majority wanting him to be removed. but also, those other questions that were asked about obstruction and the other areas

that really took apart the president's performance in this ukraine scandal. what jumped out at you? >> sure. let me throw an object, maybe a cup or something first on the table. throw something -- i don't want to start a fight on the set or something. what donny was saying, i think, is right. i think that's the big picture story i'm seeing with these numbers. this fox news poll, this is the worst poll on impeachment i've seen for trump in some time. but that said, take a look at the average of all poll out there. if you look at that right now, it's 47% impeach, 46% don't. and that's consistent with where it's been. i'm looking at one this morning, just came out, "usa today" that has the opposite of fox, it has 45% impeach, 51% don't impeach. so really, there was a big jump when this ukraine story broke, when all of the key characters were introduced to the public, when the democrats began their impeachment drive. you saw the numbers move up to basically where they are right now in the average of polls. and i think donny is right, big

picture, those haven't changed. they speak to basically every wrm republic republican being against this and basically every democrat being for this. and that polarization that you've seen since 2016, and i think from the white house's standpoint, yeah, no president wants to be impeached. no president wants that to be part of his or her legacy. but i think from a survival standpoint, that's been the key to the white house on this. if you keep that republican number, support among republicans for the president at 90% plus, that will keep republicans in the senate and in the house in line and largely, that's what we've seen. >> still ahead, the other set of poll numbers making headlines this morning. a new snapshot of the presidential race. they don't call biden teflon joe for nothing. we're back in just a moment. thi. we're back in just a moment. as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. at liberty butchumal- cut. liberty biberty- cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance

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the latest fox news poll also shows five of the top democratic 2020 contenders all beating president trump. so that might be why he's looking to get aggressive here. in the hypothetical matchup, senator bernie sanders beats trump by six points. 49% to 43%. joe biden leads trump by a seven-point margin, 48% to 41%. elizabeth warren slides by the president, 46 to 45. michael bloomberg winsly five points, 45 to 40. and pete buttigieg wins with a narrow victory of 43 to 42%. >> yeah, so, donny deutsch, the numbers show, again, it's fascinating, bernie sanders, the guy that he constantly calls a socialist -- >> yeah, top of the list. >> bernie does well in these things. joe biden does well in these things. again, elizabeth warren down a little bit, but donald trump losing fairly badly to the top

two democratic candidates right now. >> yeah, joe, i must have woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, because i look at those polls and go back to where we opened the show with what happened over on the pond there, where you ran a hard-left candidate and they got destroyed the worst in almost a century. and you know, i look at those polls, particularly where i see bernie sanders and elizabeth warren ahead of trump and i go, i'm not looking at those polls, because that's bologlo baloney. because they get devastated. the economy continues to roar. the biden open, when he talks about dividing, it's a different way of dividing us, this absolute, you're either on our team or on the other team if you don't describe to some of these socialistic tenants, boy, they better watch out. if democrats are looking at those polls and feel good about themselves, they shouldn't. i do not believe any of those hard-left candidates come close to beating donald trump. >> so i don't disagree with donny, especially given there's

sort of the intangibility of what happens when it is donald trump against one other candidate and how voters feel about that candidate. how comfortable they feel making the leap to voting for someone like elizabeth warren or bernie sanders versus donald trump. those people adrienne was talking about in the swing states, the independents, the people who might be a little fed up with trump. i just don't see how they vote for bernie sanders or elizabeth warren. >> so, ed, though, i wonder with bernie sanders, if we have corbinism without corbin. i only say that, because i remember after the 2016 election, and this shocked, of course, people that are in the media and are in the political class, that are in the political classes, but there were a lot of articles about people who voted for donald trump, but would have voted for bernie sanders, if sanders -- if sanders actually made the ticket.

and that, of course, where would that be? wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. sanders has a certain resonance among working class voters that in general elections, we haven't seen evidence of elizabeth warren having. a lot of people try to lump these two together. i don't think they go hand in hand in some cases if you believe the postmortems in 2016. >> mm-hmm. >> there was that famous poll, west virginia, where trump beat hillary, i think, the largest margin other than wyoming. but if bernie sanders had been the democratic nominee, sanders would have won 48-46. it was an exit poll. and so you should treat it with some skepticism. but it did show a very, very different attitude towards bernie sanders than the corbyn defeat might imply.

there is a very big difference between corbyn and sanders. corbyn had the whole brexit thing, which he resolutely sat on the fence. he was un-sectarian on that question and faced a party that ruthlessly straightforward's message was get brexit done. three words, and a very active, as indeed they had in the 2016 referendum, take back control. labor had a very sort of ambivalent message. like, maybe we'll have a referendum, another one. we don't know which side we'll be on. i suspect sanders, you know, if he were the nominee, would have a pretty active verb and a pretty clear message. and he wouldn't have the whiff of anti-semitism around him, either. so, you know, it's important not to overdo the comparisons between sanders and jeremy corbyn, the differences are probably more important. >> so adrienne, fox news also

had a poll that talked about the democrats running. once again had joe biden on top. and once again -- and i will say, this has been the biggest surprise for me over the past month. elizabeth warren continuing to drop, minus 8. and i just sit and look at those numbers and say, is she really losing all of this support because she put out a very progressive program? it's -- i didn't -- in the democratic party, i would not have expected this political bleeding to continue, but it does in just about every poll. and look at teflon joe. teflon joe just staying up there, jack. he's just staying up there, not slipping. >> teflon joe, durable joe. i mean, call it what you want to call it, but he has weathered some storms, joe, during this primary. and so far, he's stayed on top, consistently. he's also the only candidate in this race -- i know we've talked about this many times in the show, but he's the only candidate running in the

democratic primary who can really attract a diverse electorate. and we are simply not going to elect a candidate to be the democratic nominee in this presidential cycle without african-american voters, without hispanic voters. joe biden so far is the person who has the most support among that community. we'll see if anything changes. we'll see how the first four states shake out. you know, perhaps if -- even though iowa is a very largely white state, i do think whoever wins iowa will have a lot of momentum going into the other three states. we'll see how that effects the outcome. you know, when it comes to elizabeth warren, i have been a little surprised, too, by her drop in the polls. but i think when she came out and said, you know, this is going to cost $52 trillion, my medicare for all plan, a lot of people took a step back and said, eh, i'm just not sure i want to support a costly plan like that. and everybody remembers. everyone remembers how hard it was to pass the affordable care act in 2010, that it -- you know, a full democratically controlled house, senate, and white house, it was still very

difficult to pass. so -- americans remember that. and they want to keep their health care. a majority of americans want to keep -- or at least have the option of keeping their private health insurance. >> coming up on "morning joe," the chair of the judiciary committee says he's not even pretending to be a fair juror. a new step down for lindsey graham, next on "morning joe." n graham, next on "morning joe." you wouldn't do only half of your daily routine

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this thing will come to the senate and it will die quickly and i will do everything i can to make it die quickly. i am trying to give a pretty clear signal that i have made up my mind. i'm not pretending to be a fair juror here. >> is it appropriate to be voicing your opinion, even before this gets to the senate as a trial? >> bewell, i must think so, because i'm doing it. some people have said, "i won't vote for impeachment." some house members have said, "i won't vote for an impeachment." let me tell you, please don't say that until you understand what you're voting on. members of the senate have said, i understand everything there is about this case and i won't vote

to impeach the president. please allow the facts to do the talking. nobody knows whether the president -- what the articles of impeachment are. people have made up their mind in a political fashion that will hurt this country long-term. if you don't -- if you can't vote for impeachment, give us the -- do justice to the case. don't decide the case before the case is in. and this bothers me greatly. >> i have clearly made up my mind. i'm not trying to hide the fact that i have disdain for the accusations and the process, so i don't need any witnesses. >> that was another edition of our favorite game, whatever happened to lindsey graham. >> you know the most disgraceful part of it is the fact that he actually, donny, he actually is proud of the fact -- he's actually bragging about the fact that he's not going to be fair. he seems to take great pride in

the fact that he is going to be everything that he hated, back when i knew him. what he would say about democrats. he would say, you're jurors. how can you make a decision before the first bit of evidence is in. and lindsey now is bragging about the fact that he's going to be biased and he's not going to listen to any facts. and he's not going to follow the facts. he's not going the follow the laws. he doesn't care what it is. and he thinks it's funny. >> what's so sad is, you know, they are legislators, and before this process begins, they take a new oath to actually act as jurors. but like anything else, nothing is sacred. and once again, and joe, you and i have bandied about this a lot, how do these people not understand how history is going to view them? it's so clear and so obvious and to sell their soul to the devil this way, to -- by the way, we know how you're going to vote. but to just kind of thumb your nose that way and basically

denigrate the oath that you're about to take is quite sad. >> mike barnicle, i asked -- >> his wife is 39th most powerful women in the world, that's all. >> she's powerful, she's powerful. so, mike, you look at lindsey graham there. and again, he thinks it's cute. he's laughing about it. he's bragging about the fact that he's biased, that he's not going to do all the things that he claimed were so necessary to save the republic in 1998. and for lindsey, you've got a guy who actually, making guys much worse, he's an officer of the court. he is a lawyer, who actually tried cases. so he understands how despicable this is. he also is the chairman of the senate judiciary committee. and yet, there he is in doha,

mocking the entire situation. and saying, yeah, i'm going to be biased. despite the fact just a couple of months ago, he was saying, well, if there were to be a quid pro quo proven, then i would have real problems. well, the quid pro quo is proven. the attempted bribery was proven. yet here's lindsey graham making a big joke about the fact that he has no respect for anything. >> joe, if it was your intent to make this whole episode more depressing, you've just done it with that introduction here. i mean, donny mentioned something that is really playing a part in this how will history view these people? unfortunately, we are now in an age, in a culture where there is no more history, there is no more truth. it's all within the next hour. it's all within what's on your phone. there's no more conscience in the united states senate,

really. we're going to have chuck schumer on, in a little bit, and he is presiding over an impeachment trial or he's one part of an impeachment trial. the decision has been preordained. it's never happened in united states of america. it's being dealt with in such a frivolous manner, a truly frivolous manner. >> coming up on "morning joe." presidential candidate julian castro is making the argument that iowa shouldn't be the first state to cast ballots. mays making that argument to iowans. julian castro joins us next to talk about that on moerng joe. so talk about that on moerng joe. [ suspenseful music ]

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i don't believe that the two states that begin the process, iowa and new hampshire, are reflective of the diversity of our country or of our party. one of the things i've pointed

out, for instance, is that as we look at other states to consider to go first, we should look at the urban-to-rural sort of mix, right qu right? and pick a state that has a good urban-to-rural mix. i think in iowa, it tends to tilt towards a more rural state. and the same thing in new hampshire. >> that was democratic presidential candidate julian castro last week, arguing in iowa, why iowa shouldn't be the first state up in the primaries. and the former secretary castro joins us now. good to have you back on the show. let's start with that. first of all, how did voters react to what you told them and what do you think the process should be? >> good morning. it's good to be back with you all. i think, you know, of course, i was there in iowa, we were at drake university in des moines. and you can imagine that there are a lot of folks who -- in iowa, who want to keep their,

you know, caucus and first opportunity to cast a vote and set the momentum in the race. but there actually were a good number people also that considered the argument and some people who agree. i think more than anything else, skpi and i said this at this forum, people appreciate being told the truth as i see it in a time when we have a president who is not telling people the truth. and i believe that we should change the process, because iowa has got to go first since 1972. our country has changed a lot since 1972. our party has changed a lot since 1972. i don't think that iowa and new hampshire reflect the diversity of our party, of our country, in different ways. and i think the way that we should fix that is that the dnc should put together a commission or task force of people from different parts of the country that should actually come up with a way to rank order these states, how much does a state

reflect the diversity of the country and the party? how big is that state? in other words, how expensive to campaign? you know, how easy do they make it for people to vote? if we say as democrats that we actually want to make voting easier, does the state have robust early voting? do they make it accessible to people with disabilities and so forth? because one of my other problems with the caucus is that the caucus, as y'all know, it only happens one night at 7:00 in the evening. if somebody is a shift worker and they can't -- you know, that i have got to go work, they can't make it that day, that night, you know, you're out of luck. also, people with disabilities in iowa have complained for many years that especially when you're having a caucus in the dead of winter, that's not exactly the most accessible way to vote, because of all of that, and also, this is not insignificantly, you have no secret ballot there. the caucus is not about a secret ballot. you've got to declare right in front of everybody. some people don't want to do

that. because of that, you only have about a 16% turnout rate in the caucus. we can do things a little bit better and i'm willing to tell the truth about that. >> so the iowa democratic black caucus released a statement in response to your question of whether iowa should be first up, because of the state's lack of diversity. and it reads in part, quote, unfortunately, when we find individuals who do not garner the support they were striving for, the question arises about the status of iowa being the first in the nation caucus state. when the real question should be if the individual was in the top three, would this even be an issue. >> mr. secretary, it's a ridiculous statement. it's a ridiculous statement because iowa and new hampshire, the first two states are overwhelmingly white. they do not reflect the diverse nature of the democratic party. a state like south carolina does, more closely. a state like georgia does. but iowa and new hampshire

don't. like you said, the world has changed a lot since 1972. the democratic party itself has changed a lot since 1972. how do democrats continue -- like i said, before, iowa matches the republican party's demographics. new hampshire matches the republican party's demographics. that's fine. but they don't match the democratic party's demographics. so why continue to place such a strong emphasis on these first two states that end up giving the democrats that win that state hundreds of millions of dollars in free earned media? >> yeah, joe, you know, you've been very good about this. i heard you several weeks ago say this very clearly and say it again right now. i mean, you're correct. it doesn't reflect, you know, the diversity of the democratic party as we stand today. you're right, i think also, about the flip side of that, which it probably does reflect where the republican party is at, but that's not my concern. i just think we can do this

better. and you know, there's no preordained state that i believe should go first. and they could look at rotating states every now and then or have two states go on the same day. but it's time for the democratic party to address this. and let's be very clear, the next time that the dnc or democrats complain about voter suppression by republicans, which i certainly have complained about and i want to fight against, we need to look at our own house. we need to understand how we should live by our values when we talk about accessibility to the voting booth and making sure that everybody's vote counts. you know, we can't just aim it at other people. we've got to look at our own house. and it's time to do that with regard to iowa and new hampshire. not because there's anything wrong with the people of iowa and new hampshire, but because it doesn't reflect our values the way we do it right now. >> well, there's no reason why you can't get the first four states, nevada, south carolina, iowa, new hampshire. if everybody's wedded to that.

and rotate it. one time, it's south carolina that goes first. the next time, it's nevada, the next time it's iowa. but again, starting with two predominantly white states for a democratic party that's far more diverse just doesn't make sense. let's talk about debates and the debate rules. cory booker is suggesting, as are a lot of other democratic candidates and you, suggesting that the dnc change the debate rules to allow more people in the debate next time. tell us why they should do that. >> well, the dnc -- and i know, of course, you've been following it, for folks out there who may not have followed it as closely, the dnc has changed the way they've done these thresholds, even within this process. at the beginning of the process, they were saying, for instance, you had to get a certain number of donors or a certain percentage in the polling. and then they changed that to say you had to get both for two

of the debates. i want to say, you know, june and july, it was maybe the same thresholds and then it changed for november/december, where they upped it from november/december. in other words, those thresholds at first applied to two debates now they only play to one debate. so they haven't set the debate criteria for january and beyond. what we're saying is not change the criteria for december, which is already going to happen. nobody is saying, hey, change it a few days from that debate. what we're saying is, look, you haven't set the criteria for january. and you've shown before that you actually have done it in different ways. so why don't you do it in either/or. allow a certain number of donors or a certain polling threshold. they could also look at other things. for instance, out there, there are a lot of ballots that we're already having to get our names on to, right? so you have lists of candidates in maybe about 15 states already, that are either on the ballot or not on the ballot.

you could easily use that, as well. that's not an overwhelming number of people. that's a limited number of people. so we're just asking the dnc to be more thoughtful about these thresholds to allow for more robust conversation up there on the debate stage. and at the end of the day, you know, people are going to vote soon, so i think they're going to do the work instead of the dnc. >> you know, mike barnicle, the dnc, from -- i mean, you talk to any candidate, they will tell you that the dnc's heart has been in the right place throughout this process. mayor de blasio said as much, but there have been some blind spots. and here's a blind spot that i'm sure the dnc didn't think about it and a lot of us didn't think about. it seems like a great idea to allow people to get on the debate stage based on how many contributors they have. that seems to democratize the process. the only problem is, if you're a billionaire like mike bloomberg or let's say tom steyer, because

bloomberg's not taking money, if you're a billionaire, it's very easy to send out a lot of fund-raising letters and get $25 here, $20 -- you may end up spending more money than you take in, but you meet those artificial thresholds that have been put in there by the dnc. so it's -- it's actually, in a weird way, by doing that, you're actually ensuring that billionaires may be able to pay their way on to a debate stage. >> yeah, that's for sure, joe, and it's happening right now in front of us each and every day as we look at the debate stage. listen, this is not a new issue. and mr. secretary, you're not the first person, obviously, to speak about the problems about the iowa caucus or the new hampshire primary. this has been going on for at least 50 years. so my question to you is, why has it taken so long, still, today, for the democratic national committee, to answer the -- to come out with some

logic about the first tuesday and february, call it super tuesday, and as joe just referenced, have new hampshire, iowa, nevada, north carolina, michigan, all on one day in early february to get a consensus on what america looks like and what americans -- what americans are looking for in the next president of the united states? but it's been at least 50 years for them to even allude to the reality of it. >> yeah, well, mike, i know you've seen so many of these. and you know it better than anybody else. you're right, this is not the first time it's been brought up. and what i think has happened, though, now, is that the gap between the values that we say we hold as democrats in the face of a republican party that too often is trying to suppress the votes of people versus where we're at on how we do our presidential nominating contest, especially at the very beginning of it, that gap has just grown wider and wider and wider. and this fiction of the

democratic party being a champion for opening up the, you know, voting booth and ballot access, i say it becomes a fiction. you know, we have been fighting for it. we have been the party that is actually creating more opportunity for people to vote, but it becomes hypocritical if we also don't look at our own house and how we're doing it for the most important office in the entire united states. and i think, though, that -- and there are quite a number of people that feel like this. i do believe that after this election, that the dnc is going to have to go back and establish some process to at least re-evaluate it. there is support out there and a number of the different states among the state party chairs, and other activists within the democratic party. so it is going to happen. i don't think that -- i don't think that they can hold off the conversation much longer. >> all right. julian castro, thank you very much for being on the show this

morning. >> thank you so much, mr. secretary. great to have you. >> good to be with you all. thank you. >> adrienne elrod, curious about the process that secretary castro is bringing up, but also the state of the race right now. as we are getting to a smaller debate stage, it at least allows for a bit more conversation. i mean, this is difficult to navigate when you have so many candidates. >> yeah, you're right, mika. look, fufirst of all, i certain do not blame senator cory booker for issuing this letter, asking for the dnc to loosen debate restrictions. number one, he's admitted this has helped him raise money, which he needs in order to stay in the race. but i want to push become a little bit on secretary castro's position here. first of all, the dnc made it very clear in february of this year that there were going to be debate thresholds in place that candidates had to meet. that included grassroots fund-raising donations and of course meeting the debate threshold. so they were very transparent about the process early on.

and secondly, mika, i don't think the majority of american people, certainly not the majority of democratic primary voters, want to go back to seeing debates happen two consecutive nights in a row. first of all, i think the ner g networks are not always going to go for it. and secondly, it's time to have a real debate with the five, six, front-runners in this race. you know, if we loosen the restrictions back to some of those early threshold days, you're going to see mariany ann williamson who frankly doesn't have a shot at becoming the democratic nominee. it is time to get down to business and we have to select a nominee and we want to see a real debate between the four and five top contenders. >> i actually agree 100% it is kind of adult dining room time and the debates to this time have been so uninspiring and so not must see tv that it

is time to whittle dow >> still to come on "morning joe." >> you're doing fine, you're doing splendidly. speed it up. >> so you know, yesterday we went out to the driving range, right? to the driving range, right, and i have not gone in a very long time and never with jack. i put the money in to get the golf balls out and i forgot to put the basket under the golf ball and they were flooding out and i'm trying to grab them and i said to jack this is just like "i love lucy," and he is like who? comedy gold on "i love lucy,"

but why there is real danger from the speed of food safety lines. you may want to put away those strippedse of bacon before hearg the report. and before go to break a lot going on at knowyourvalue.com. how managed change works for women, change can feel risky and data shows that women are averse to risk and my monday motivation this week is advice on how to manage change all of the time and think outside of the box a little because change is also opportunity. >> so lsimportant. >> later this week i will talk to cnbc's sharon epperson about how she adapted to change in the blink of an eye after suffering a brain injury at the height of her career. don't miss that and more at knowyourvalue.com. knowyourvalue.com. ♪oh there's no place like home for the holidays.♪

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>> but critics say it lets the industry regulate itself. now two inspectors say it could make your food less safe morgan ratford is joining us with more. this is the biggest change in the way our food is inspected in more than 50 years. we spoke to several federal inspectors speaking out for the first time and they say the pork you eat may not be as safe as you think. it is all about an inspection process that they say is too fast and it has less central oversig

oversight. >> toenails, hair, sexual or begans -- >> that is what is potentially in your pork according to some of america's federal inspectors speaking out for the first time in a nbc exclusive. jill mauer and anthony vallone are speaking out. >> i don't eat from this plant. >> you don't eat from the same plant where you work. >> correct. >> no. >> they say the meat you eat may soon be less safe than you think thanks to a change in rules for pork inspection. now set to roll out nationwide under the trump administration. >> the consumer is being duped. they believe it is being federally inspected and there is no one there to even watch or do anything about anything. >> both inspectors work at a pork plant in the midwest. one of the first to adopt the pilot program. they say the changes have been dramatic.

in traditional plants, they check the animals for defects or signs of decide. in the new system it goes down to two or three federal inspectors, now the plants employees will be checking and sorting with no federal straining required. >> there is not enough time to react to situations that arise. you 2.6 seconds per carcus. >> to inspect the hog? >> yes. >> there is no federal cap on line speeds, no set limit on how fast the meat can go by. >> as long as they feel like they can get away with it, they will. >> the usda declined to do an interview for this story, inspectors have the authority to slow and stop the line to ensure food safety and ensure safety and inspection are achieved.

they will conduct 100% carcus by ca carcus inspections. >> when you open your package of meat, what you're going to get for pathogens are a mystery. >> what are pathogens? >> the things that make you sick. >> and they could enter our feed. >> correct. the 40 plants process 90% of america's pork. records show no food outbreaks linked to the pilot plants, but foot safety advocates say the

risk will be much greater when it expands. >> they're doing the work that public servant inspectors used to do. it is being done at a higher rate. you're bound to make mistakes, and if you make mistakes, it's the public that is harmed. >> so as americans head to the kitchen, these federal inspe inspectors. it will stop when someone dies. >> so mika we also contacted all five plants and north american meat institute that said inspectors are still required to inspect every animal and they they always have the authority to effect an establishment's line speed. nbc news asked them to interview all of the inspectors at the pilot plants and the usda declined to make them available for us.

the trump administration is looking to make the same changing for beef processing and that is very serious. >> morgan, thank you very much for that report that does it for us this morning, stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> hi there, it is monday, december 16th and there is a lot happening this morning. while you were sleeping house democrats dropped their massive 658 page impeachment report. the report that came out just after midnight argues that the president must be impeached "to protect the nation and preserve our freedom." and it sets the stage for the full house vote that will take place this wednesday assuming that the house backs impeachment a senate trial would come next. schumer laid out