that does it for me today. thank you very much for watching, "am joy" with joy reid starts right now. the president threatening to grant or withhold certain privileges and certain military assistance voted on by the congress to ukraine. which is in our national interest to do so because they were fighting the russians. that's why i say all those need to putin. >> good morning, welcome to "am joy." congress may have packed up for the holidays but news in the scandal has not slowed down the impeachment of donald trump and the media's coverage of it has focused on trudge's assistance, that ukraine launched or announced the political rival joe biden or biden's son hunter. but it's part two in the ask of

the july 25th phone call with ukrainian president zelensky that is the source of the new development, namely trump's seeming obsession with shifting the blame in interference from the 2016 election from russia to ukraine. trump made that ask of zelensky saying he wanted the ukrainian government to find the democratic national committee server that he keeps insisting is in ukraine. and citing crowd strike, the american cyber security company that trump keeps insisting is a ukrainian company that's the real culprit in stealing the dnc's emails. 17 intelligence agencies have made it clear that it was russia who stole the dnc's emails, not ukraine. not crowd strike. so why does donald trump keep insisting that his bananas conspiracy theory is the real story? one official said trump was so confident that ukraine did it because, vote, putin told him.

he even made sure to try and shift the blame away from russia when he and his buddy, pal, vlad, who happens to be a brutal dictator murderer, by the way, hung out last summer in helsinki. and trump held this memorial, one might say humiliating press conference. >> people came to me, dan coats and others came to me and said they think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i will say this, i don't see any reason why it would be. >> wow, what a moment. so trump insisted on withholding aid to ukraine, trying to pressure that government to come up with proof that he and putin are right and all of u.s. intelligence is wrong about who attacked our 2016 election. ukraine, prove to us that you did it and crowd strike did it. or you don't get the aid or good luck fighting that russian invasion without it. wait, there's more, on friday,

"the washington post" broke news insisting that the trump administration still hasn't learned its lesson. quote, senior trump administration officials in recent days threatened a presidential veto. meaning they might do it again. they just want to keep their options open. and if all of that wasn't enough, last night, the center for public integrity released emails under a court order. one of the emails was from july 25th. literally, sent just 91 minutes, less than two hours after trump's phone call with zelensky. and in it, an official from the white house, office of management and budget directed the pentagon to withhold aid to ukraine. and said that, quote, given the sensitive nature of their request the information should be close. joining us is jeffrey smith national security editor for the

center for public integrity, the people who received those doubts. i first want to ask you, thank you for being here, mr. smith. how were you all able to get these documents? the administration has been notoriously open in refusing to comply with request for documents. how were you all able to get them? >> good morning, joy, thank you to the listeners for interest in the subject. the administration has been extremely reluctant to turn any information over to congress. and in fact, in the impeachment debate, the congress complained specifically that it's not received any documentation of any kind from the office of management and budget which oversees all spending on things like ukraine. and the department of defense which carries out that spending. they have refused to turn over any documents. so back in september, even before the congress, subpoenaed congress, we requested these documents under the freedom of

information act. we were luck to get a fairly quick response from the judge. we asked after -- we had to wait a month because they refused to even acknowledge our request in one case. and the other case, they said, well, we'll give them to you in about a year. so, we asked the judge for a preliminary injunction which is, again, kind of an immediate court order, saying this was urgent. this is before the congress now, the public has a right to this information. the public has a right to participate in the impeachment proceedings. the judgeal agr judge agreed and them to begin handing over information two weeks ago. basically the week before, friday night and the friday before that. they turned over 146 pages each time. and the problem was that they had blacked out almost all of the information in the emails. they said because these were inter agency communications, they're not subject to the freedom of information arch and as a result, we don't have to give you that information. >> right. >> now, they had -- there's

nothing in the law that says they can't give us this information. it was their choice not to do so. we're fighting them in court. we're not going to give up. we have a hearing scheduled that will hopefully resolve this by march. this was the quickest that the court could make it work. we wanted on a much speedier timetable, obviously. >> you got that a lot. sum up what did you find? what's in these documents? >> so, what's clear in the documents so far was that there was huge anxiety inside the government that the aid halt was not only unwise, but illegal. this is why we feel this is newsworthy. a lot of the congressional testimony and impeachment hearings have been about the fact stopping aid to ukraine was not a good idea. it would make the russians feel more emboldened. it would harm ukraine security

and it would therefore harm american security. but this is a separate question. and what we've discovered, both before and during this foia action was that a lot of people inside the administration felt that what trump had asked them to do, which is to hold up the aid was illegal. now, why was that so? it was because of a law which was passed in 1974 to rein in richard nixon, another bred that's been accused of wrongdoing, obstruction of congress, a fafailure to abide the nation's laws, et cetera. nixon was routinely holding up funds that had been appropriated. congress was going to pass a law four weeks before nixon's resignation which says once congress appropriates money, you have to spend it.

in this case, congress had appropriated these $391 million for ukraine. they said, as a result, this is something that the executive branch has to spend. and there are only a couple ways that the president or any president can avoid spending that money, one of them -- and in every case, he has to let congress know. he didn't delay the spending for more than 45 days. and if he's going to takee if he -- if he's going to halt the scombendz to expenditure, he has to have a reason and has to get approval. none of this was done. on the day which was cited, july 25th, the day of the phone call, at the time that they were kind of riding out the fact that the aid was going to be interrupted -- now, the order had been given before on the 12th, and they had discussed it in an inter-agency meeting on the 18th of july but on the 25th, they formally wrote it out. and in writing it out, the guy

said, oh, we hope that you know, you're going to keep this just to the minimum number of people that need to know. and this is sensitive information. >> right. >> what we're doing is sensitive. so that's completely contrary, right, to what the empoundment act requires. it requires transparency, an explanation, none of that occurred in this case. >> yeah. >> that's why people in administration were worried that this was illegal. >> r. jeffrey smith, thank you very much. you guys uncovered valuable information, thank god for foia. thank you. joining me now is "vanity fair" contributor and malcolm nance, msnbc contributor and author. thank you for being here. i'll start with you, craig, at the desk. what was found in these documents is that people inside

the white house including michael duffy who is the office of management and budget, sending the money over. they're communicating back and forth, he and other officials about the withholding of aid. in one case, has a conversation about withholding aid within 90 minutes of this july 25th phone call so they understood you should not be doing this. what do you make of this concerted effort to keep aid out of the hands of the ukrainian government by donald trump. at the same time donald trump is saying ukraine interfered in the election, not russia? >> well, this is no surprise, it's been going on one way or another for at least 16 years with paul manafort who started working for vladimir putin in ukraine. but in viktor yanukovych as president. >> yeah. >> and it was one of the most corrupt regimes. when you look at manafort's

relationship to trump, remember, he was not paid to be trump's campaign manager by trump or by the republican national committee. when he got $75 million according to indictments from oligarchs. >> malcolm, it's important to bring up paul manafort, paul manafort is in prison right now hoping for a pardon. what people have to remember, he's not in prison for what we call russia-gate. he's not in prison for anything that wound up in the mueller report. he worked for his pro-putin president of ukraine. mr. i mr mr. yanovittch. this was devin nunes talking about something called the blackledger. for those who don't understand what he was talking about, we'll

talk about that on the other side of the break. >> have you ever heard of the black ledger? >> i have. >> and the black ologledger, ist seen as credible information? >> yes. >> the black ledger is credible? >> yes. >> bob mueller did not find it credible, did you dispute what bob mueller's findings were, they didn't use it in the prosecution or report? >> i'm not aware that bob mueller did not find it credible. >> talk a little bit about what are they talking about, malcolm? >> the blackledge -- black ledger is found in the political part of this, after a popular people's uprising pushed him out of the government. the students and the people who took over those offices went through it and they found a ledger of cash payments who were being paid to people who were supporting moscow and pro-moscow

ukrainian government activities. in that ledger was paul manafort's name. and a dollar figure in the tens of millions of dollars which were paid out to him. you know what, joy, you said early on, and everyone has been saying, all roads lead to putin, that's true. but what we really need to understand is, in this story, all roads lead to putin through paul manafort. >> yes. >> who is now in prison for money laundering the money he got that was found in this black ledger. >> exactly. and that's what i want to get to. i spoke to a person who knows donald trump very well who said to me what put this idea in donald trump's head that ukraine is bad is not just putin, it was paul manafort. because this is paul manafort's main client, this is his main payday, how he was getting the ostrich jacket from people in ukraine. then you had people like rudy

giuliani trying to turn it back to that. that's how paul manafort was making his money. there's this conspiracy theory that's been debunked. this is in daily beast, republicans like devin nunes think the black laredger. and it's an account of corrupt payments that allegedly shows ukraine's government paying its cronies. are we looking at that manafort is the real start of russia-gate? >> absolutely. we're watching the real operation unfold. and manafort was doing that in ukraine. his own deputy testified this is not ordinary lobbying. manafort had a shadow government and set up phony think tanks and phony newspapers and phony stuff putting out this information. when you look at the real

documents which he submitted for which he's being paid $10 million a year, i want to the read you one sentence, these are paul manafort's words, we are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the government. he is working for vladimir putin, no question about it. >> yeah. >> and what was a secret is now becoming an overt one. >> yep, absolutely. malcolm, fast forward to now. you now have a story in "the washington post" that by holding back support in the first place from ukraine, by isolating ukraine, blaming them, basically for getting paul manafort in trouble, for not being his client anymore, donald trump was doing nothing but helping putin. then on friday, the trump administration demanded that democrats strip the language out of the new bill, a must-pass bill, he wants the language out. trump administration officials in recent days threatened a

presidential veto that could have had a government shutdown if house democrats refused to drop language requiring prompt aid to ukraine. if it was not left out. next thing -- no, we won't even play it. donald trump retweeted vladimir putin defending him on being impeached. it appears -- there it is, a total witch hunt. he retweeting putin. what we thought, malcolm, actually the three of us have talked about this forever, it's really a trio, it's trump, putin and manafort. >> yes. and first off, we have to stop using the word conspiracy theory because there's a lot of people out there that like to frame us as pushing a fake narrative. this story is not just the trump/ukraine scandal. it's the trump/russia/ukraine scandal. it is all one circle that we've been working within.

it's just that vladimir putin is so adept at what he's doing, when he saw paul manafort going down, even as trump's campaign adviser, he knew that he now had his claws into trump. and that by when trump became president, he was starting to tell him the narratives that he wanted him to use. and the first one was, ukraine did it. not us. russia is innocent. we're your best friend. trump wholeheartedly believed that above what anyone in u.s. intelligence will tell him. i believe there was an article recently that said trump flat out refused to believe u.s. intelligence and said putin told me that the yooukrainians did i. the russian hacking, that the ukrainians did it. the people who had the server, it wasn't in washington, d.c. with hundreds and hundred s of computer banks to look at, no, it's in ukraine. all of this is a russian

intelligence narrative being fed to donald trump by a spy master who knows how to play the idiot that he is. >> yes. >> and it's attacking not just the united states but trying to make further encroachments into ukraine and damage them at the same time, it's a win-win for putin. >> and people should not forget it's always about money. who is paying lev parnas $1 million? russia. he paying at the end of the day manafort? russia. this is where they're making their money, guys. this is literally a very simple scandal. it's about these guys, people around donald trump having a client, 350u9eputin, craig unga malcolm, thank you. stick around. we've got a closer look at the u.s. military in the age of trump and what u.s. troops really think of him. do your asthma symptoms ever hold you back?

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as donald trump celebrating signing the latest version of the nafta defense authorization act, the bill that funds the american military, we wanted to note a change to the bill. a new provision shows a study in ways that the military could vet extremists who might be looking for free gun range training. when it was added to the bill by

pete aguilar it was specifically sought to scene out white nationalists. when the democratic house and republican senate got together to hammer out the differences in the language of the bill, the white national lift language morphed. the final version instead requires the department of defense to study ways to screen enlistees. and urgent warning, warning signs about the rise of white nationalism inside our forces. joining me now is author of "how to catch a russian spy a true story of an american turned double agent." and malcolm nance is back with us as well. i want to first go to you. but i want to first read the statement from the spokesperson from the senate armed services republican side who said we asked for a statement and this

is absurd, the language from the amendment which was agreed to in a bipartisan vote by both house and senate was expanded beyond represental aa aal aguilar's s. but the reality is that specific language being changed, you know, with other things added to it will put a point in that. but we have a military times pol which shows 22% of service members report that they have seen signs of white nationalism and racist ideology within the armed forces. that's among 629 active duty troops last year. what do you make of that trend? >> i think it's a trend we've all seen under donald trump, right? the idea of the normalization of white nationalism. look, just to make clear, i want to point to the statement between white supremacy and white nationalists. supremacy is the believe that

the race is superior. and white nationalism is the theory that should be a white ethnostate. when you have the cruel treatment of brown people, putting people in cages, muslim bans, and steven miller at the helm driving this we've seen this normalization. and it's not surprising to me that, you know, that the military members are reporting this. again, as civilians, we've probably all seen this in the day to day. it's a normalization of white nationalists. the normalization that sort of racism gets put into the ether by saying it's not about saying whites or better than blacks or anything like that, it's about america first. it's about protecting america. but really it's this veiled idea of white nationalist, which at its core is this belief that there should be a white ethnostate. i'm not surprised, removing that language is a hat tip to say we're normalizing this.

let's not make white national ism like this. joy, at the end of the day, that sis what trumble is, it's normalizing this type of ideology, this type of behavior. not just normalizing it by words, right, we have smith's written policy that pushes these ideas. >> malcolm, there's a further breakdown in this bill that shows nearly 42% of white troops said they had experienced examples of nonwhite troops said, said they experienced examples of white nationalism. only 18% of white service members said the same. so it's not everyone. you can comment on the fact, whoever, we don't know which specific lawmakers decided to make this change but there seems to be an emphasis on wanting to have muslim extremism worded out specifically but not white nationalism. >> well, that's the way that this administration has been running policy from the very beginning. there is no extremism or terrorism that could ever come

from the white tribe, as far as they're concerned. and it all comes from, you know, brown people and muslims and things like that. i've been mentoring a young sail here is now a journalist who was in the armed forces who was, you know, he was caucasian, but he was a muslim. and he was treated abysmally while he was assigned to his duty assignments strictly because he was a muslim. he didn't even look like what they think a muslim looks like. what they do in the armed forces and the reason you have only 18% of people saying they've seen any of it is, they are not the victims of it, and they are blind to it because their friends are perpetrating it. i've actually had things happen in my armed services career that were good examples of white nationalism and white supremacy. let me call one last point there, timothy mcveigh and terry nichols, when they came up with their plan to blow up the murrah

building in oklahoma city and kill 180 some odd american citizens were white nationalists. they thought by blowing that bidding up there would be an uprising in the armed forces where soldiers would take their weapons and all of the white soldiers would kill the black soldiers. that failed to happen. but it was a belief structure not only in the military at the time, but a book and this is a pervasive problem that the command level must squash from the top down. if you have congress watering down the language, well, then, it will continue to persist. >> we should point out that the statement from the spokesperson was that they want to include everything, white nationalism, gang members, et cetera, not calling out one or the other specifically, but that's what they decided to do. we were talking the other day, the three of us were actually talking off air, it's so concerning to military leadership that when you have members of the naval academy

playing what they're now saying was the circle game, you know, doing it on camera, it prompted an investigation. within the military, which they're saying was not throwing the upside down okay white power sign but it prompted an investigation that has to happen. you have situation where is a u.s. coast guard lieutenant was accused of planning a large-scale killing of civilians. we're starting to see that kind of investigation happen to happen. it frightens me as a civilian to think that the military is also having to deal with this, because obviously, this is an armed entity with a lot of power, potentially, you know. >> that's a very good point. and, look, joy, i think that should have been a teachable moment. malcolm said it best that this is -- look, you're 18, 19 years old. you grow up in a small town you're now moving in with people that you have never seen before. it's an understanding that there may be a chance to learn here.

on the flip side of this, we talk about white nationalism, what is the main part of white national licism is symbolism. i don't doubt that midshipmen and that west point cadet were actually not doing the white power symbol. it's got to be something that we teach that it's not okay to do that. >> let me comment on the new military times poll which is actually a different side of thi coin. the view of donald trump in the military, very favorable, 24.3%. favorable, 17.3%. neutral, 8.5. unfavorable is 4.8. the biggest of all, very unfavorable, 45.1%. what do you make of that completely? >> first, we don't suffer fluke gladly in the armed forces.

we know when there's an idiot when we see one. our job is to recalibrate stupid. when is he see that coming from the commander in chief talking nonsense. we'll follow all lawful legal orders we just won't call it out when somebody asks us when a poll comes around. >> do you think that donald trump's treatment of military preference, he just belitted a ward w world war ii veteran, the treatment of khan in florida. does that seep into the members of the armed forces? >> absolutely. the country is growing more brown and more progressive and so is the military. when that military becomes more brown and progressive and they start seeing their citizens being treated poorly by the commander in chief. >> naveed and malcolm, thank you. appreciate it. coming up, trump's genius

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♪ coming up, a new book documents trump's odd relationship with reality. that's next. next.

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the setting, the oval office. mid-april, 2017. north korea had recently launched two long-range missiles, threatening u.s. allies like japan and even american targets in guam and hawaii. donald trump's national security adviser had gathered to try to give the president a briefing on north korea. according to a new book "trump

and his jen generals." the reading includes lots of pictures. bergen writes, gradually trump began to focus on the photo looking closely at south korea and its capital seoul. the distance from the north korean border to seoul was only 15 miles. trump remarked, why is seoul so close to the north korean border? then he said, about the 25 million people who live in seoul's metropolitan area, they have to move. those in the oval office wasn't sure if trump was joking. trump repeated, they have to move. joining me now, peter bergen, author of "trump and his generals the cost of chaos" is the subtitle. peter bergen, that is an unbelievable story. please give us the ending of that. did anyone ever find something to say back to trump when he

said all 10 million people in seoul should just move? >> you know, they didn't really say anything. they just sort of let it pass. i mean, trump has said a number of things like that. obviously, it wasn't something that could happen. early in his presidency, he went to central command at a certain point which is where the wars in the middle east are coordinated, about two weeks into his pl presidency, he saw a map of the gulf and said next time the iranians come out in the strait of hormuz, we should blow them up. obviously, the generals didn't take that as a direct office. they didn't do anything about it. and jim mattis, the second of defense in the first three years of the presidency, in particular, as he told people that he worked with have to make sure to reason trump's impulse.

he would not send war planners to war games on north korea. and it was his view that trump was so impulsive, you had to be careful how you presented military options to him. was that completely fair, joy? i think it turns out trump has -- you know, he cualled bac a military operation against iran at the last minute. he's been drawing down in syria. generally speaking, he's been trying to make nullifying noises with north korea, trying to de-escalate. that may go over the next couple of days because they've promised a christmas present to president trump. i don't think it's a box of chocolates. it is going to be a major missile test of some kind. and then back to the presidency where there was talk of fire and fury. and my consensus is now trump reacts. he hasn't had a global financial

meltdown or a. 9/11 or sudan invading kuwait or the sort of foreign policy that affects every president. >> when donald trump came in, he called them his generals. he had general kelly, obviously, general mattis, he liked to remind he was nicknamed mad dog, a nickname that mattis apparently didn't like. he had his national security adviser that he never listened to. jim mattis' resignation letter, my views in treating allies with respect and ago being clear-eyed about both malign actor and strategic comberts aexperts are held. one of the things that was notable about trump's administration is how many people came in with outside people saying that's going to be a good leveling influence on

him, and then not having any influence on him. very few people resigning in protest. even after they've left, jim mattis has been reluctant to say anything about him. >> yeah. >> what do these generals generally think of him? do they have respect for him do they think he's dangerous? >> well, that letter you read from mattis i think has a very interesting clause in there. he said i have four decades of immersion in these issue which is is a not so subtle dig to reference to the fact that this is the first president in american history who has never served in office or in the military. the generals that came in after mattis, and kelly, they felt a strong sense of duty, kelly has said if hillary clinton offered him the job he would have taken it. none of them knew trump -- jim kelly has said not only did he not know trump, he didn't know anybody who knew trump. this was a completely different ecosystem. nato is a good thing, allies are

a good thing. vladimir putin is a bad thing. they have that kind of a view of the world. and over time, these policy differences really began to add up. you had h.r. mccaster being force forced out of office early. mattis was no longer on speaks terms with the president or chief of staff. that doesn't work well. >> and trump turned around and got on the board of a company that's caging children. that's a whole other conversation. peter bergen. thank you very much, congratulations on the book. good luck. >> thank you. coming up, a political trend we haven't seen since 2004. i will tell you what that is in our next hour of "am joy." fine, no one leaves the table until your finished.

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moderate democrats are worried of impeachment and if it goes too broaden or too far at all. >> if anything, if democrats diminish the president, the opposite is going to happen. the impeachment is not getting on president trump. >> i do have good news. they are contributing to the real election of donald trump. >> whoo. welcome back to "a.m. joy." >> you may think it was the democrats headed to trial instead of trump. instead of treating impeachment of what it is on trump's legacy, many are framing the impeachment

is a major problem for the democrats. the conversation straight further away from what got trump here in the first place. promoting conspiracy theory with roots in the kremlin. it is so annoying that i can't pronounce it. daily kos, written by our next guest, tiffany cross, jason johnson, karine jean-pierre, author of "moving ning forward." thank you for being here. i actually turn the channel. it is a thing that is a thing.

>> totally. it is dems and disarray, right? during the clinton impeachment. the overwhelming media narrative, this is a big political problem for democrats. we have a republican president and the overwhelming, this is a big global problem for democrats. you can't have it both ways. only 25% of clinton impeachment. fox news at 54% wants to take the extraordinary move, which had never been done in america's history. about obsession of democrat m t moderate votes. trump admitted this all in public. in the end, none of those moderates cared about the pressure tide because they all voted for impeachment.

everything is through the republican view and the other fact is republicans just lost 40 seats in the house. they lost the louisiana, kentucky governor. and against the backdrop the tide is turned against democrats? no, none of it makes sense. >> can you explain why? >> every news cycle starts with a premise. what are republicans angry about. and so if they're angry about impeachment, that's a big deal then they're on the offensive. democrats are always on their heels. they always see dems being out maneuvered. >> her letter to donald trump says, dear, the constitution says we let you talk to us so

why don't you come down. that letter was so shady, i know she wrote it while doing the pelosi class act. >> you are our great friend and a pollster which is convenient to have you here. everything that eric bohler said is true. nixon had already won reelection when he was impeached and clinton elected twice, they impeached him on his way out the door. this is the first modern president to be impeached in his first term. this is a huge deal. more than half of people in a news poll said he should not stay impeached but removed. they're justifying it in their town hall and only tulsi gabbard

voted present. >> joy, i think the same media punted geniuses who thought democrats impeachment are a mistake. it was a mistake for eddie murphy returning guest host on "snl" last night. eddie murphy killed on "saturday night live" and the democrats killed donald trump with that impeachment hearing. the polling is daunting for r the president. that fox poll shows 54% of americans and we were watching minute by minute and gavel by gavel. let's think about who the impeachment was for. not only it is a historic brand, this will have for the remainder of his life as you alluded to. we have never seen this happen to a president seeking reelection. the other message that

impeachment was for, was for the world and our allies. it is clear that the united states government have not lost its mind that the rule of law and the moral authority that united states always stood for in the last 200 years is still some what intact. that's the most important thing about what we saw with impeachment and reminding you also as you talk about nancy pelosi is out maneuvering the little man child every step of the way and what we have seen now of the few development where we may not send right now of those articles to the senate. that's going to drive trump further and further to the edge. it has been a master stroke and it is only going to get better for the democrats. >> let me go to tiffany cross, you have been very as far as couching it in the media.

it is rerelatabililatable, to ts middle america but democrats who are the majority, there are much more democrats than republicans the that they are not many americans. is this the needed demographic issue? >> the master narrator have not caught up with the demographic of the country. t as the country changes, the power structure has not. it is dangerous and it is through, we saw what happened in 2016 when the media failed. here we are seeing the same thing happening when people felt the media was not speaking to them. the media was not addressing issues that concerned massive of people. they found a relevant voice in the ira, it was not particularly people of color, black people

were not more susceptible to donald trump, forens instance. there was a voice speaking to them and nobody else was. it was dangerous to present this through the lens of politics. this is not republicans verses democrats. this is truth verses lies and patriotism verses traitor. and then you have a conversation in the media where it is like, well, they say the democrats are seeing pigs fly outside and democrats disagree, there you have it? no, you can't present these as though they are equal or simple disagreement. this is our country and what patriotism looks like. the press will be on the front line of democracy. we can't fail twice. it is almost like giving donald trump again with billions of dollars of coverage. i think we have to be careful with presenting some of these

thoughts and the morning on the media, i saw people at trump rallies, how they feel about impeachment. let's try again to string together some thoughts. they don't know why he was being impeached. this is cloolossal failure by t media. we have to become apart of the system of the media to disru disruptive. >> let me play a couple of examples. here she is asking a question at the democratic debate this week. >> unlike 1974 and president nixon congressional democrats not convinced a strong majority of americans to support impeachment of donald trump. why do you think that is and what can you say or do

differently in the coming weeks to persuade more americans this is the right thing to do. there was never a majority for a long time for nixon until the tape came out. let me do a couple headlines here. pbs, impeachment. certain, democrats' strategy is a gamble 2020. karine jean-pierre, we are watching the debate together. as the impeachment which is a tiny part of the debate comes up, it did come up as how is this going to hurt the party.

>> merry impeachment to everybody out there. as you were saying we never saw these high numbers with impeachment during the nixon times especially at this time during nixon's trial. it was never this high during clinton at all. 70% of americans believe that donald trump did something wrong. we can't get 70% of americans agree today is sunday, that's how divided we are. democrats are not only on the right side of history on this. they're on the right side of politics on this. # the thing is, i think there is this mystical believe or donald trump has this mystical power that he's a magical politician. if we go back to 2016, 70,000

people, 70,000 got him to more than 270 college electoral vote. why? we had this information campaign led by russia, james comey put out a letter days before hillary clinton and that hurt hillary clinton. there is no magic. republicans lost in many key races in 2018 and 2017. democrats got back the house which thank goodness because they are holding this president accountable. if there is no mystical believe on donald trump, this is not the case, i think just like eric pointed out, we have two examples, kentucky and also louisiana which donald trump went into those states and he campaigned on impeachment and he put it on the ballot and they ran an ad on impeachment and guess what? he lost in a ruby red state and

one of them kentucky where he won by 30 points of 2016. he lost the governor race. >> if donald trump was so magical then how come he lost the popular vote including the media of 40 something years that was beat up by e-mails. he still lost by her. if he was so good, why didn't he beat her? >> new yorker, the house is sad, the impeachment. washington post, impeachment threatens to become partisan go-to weapon. >> there is a sense o of -- bipartisanship is the ultimate good. anything that does not encourage

this magical thing called bipartisanship which never existed in the two country. >> so this is the larger thing. date size and common sense wise, there is nobody in the united states of america who's voting on impeachment. nobody. there is nobody in tennessee or california, you know what, i voted for hillary clinton but those democrats went too far. no, nobody is doing that. there is no group of white or black people whose votes going to change by impeachment. but, there is a more important issue here. it is not that we have a certain demographic or a certain age and gender. a lot of people who are in our traditional newspapers and

magazines, there is institutionallis institutionallist, they like order. they like status quo. it was hey, everybody shut up and let's not talk about the fact that george bush may have cheated. let's get back to a sense of normal. even the normal was a terrible president. that's why we have this sort of attitude among the media people that this is bad and disruptive because it breaks up the order. even in the majority of the people of the united states america say hey, we want this guy out of here. from the media's point of view, is that is it? because the media likes change in a certain senate. donald trump for the media is the kind of change that for a lot of people who are not victimized by him or endangered by him or who's not an immigrant child or lose their right to

vote or a women who's losing the right of their sovereignty. he may also be entertaining. >> it could be a great story. trump has been good for d.c. journalist of a professional status. truly it is a great story and never ends and people want great news. this obsession and it goes back to the day after he was inaugurated, this obsession of interviewing trump's voters and asking them they think of trump. it is a dangerous message. white republicans are who matters in this country. >> they're real americans. >> their opinions are what really matters. the press invented this. no one went to a diner in atlanta or los angeles and rounded up voters of color, tell me how much you love obama or how great he is.

it is dangerous. articles after articles, what did you think of impeachment. that's not news. i think it is dangerous. >> can i add to that? i think even when they ask democrats how are you going to appeal to the swing voters or the red state, when do you ever ask republicans how are you go i think to appeal to democrats or blue states or everyone whn whe look at the chatter class, remember when michael wolf came out "fire and fury." he talked about how he got his accent and he heard things and picked up on things? do you think i can go into trump's house and nobody comes other and asking me, what are you doing here? we have to look at this through a broader scope. it is so dangerous because so much of it is about access. it is about the chatter class

time and maintaining their access. have you or anyone around you been promised on something or threatening anything. you know what, if they have, they too can be receiving help from a foreign adversary. no one ask that because they don't want to be blocked from that person. you ask all kinds of questions. >> come on, lindsey graham. i think the other issue is the sense of threat is not there, right? what donald trump is doing is not just threatening the right to vote by having foreign actors coming in and serve our elections. the idea that this is a threat to the country, it had foreign operation in our elections, really trying to top it on that level, it is also a media

failure in your view. >> it is the greatest media failure. i keep ongoing back to the new yorker headline you referenced. what are the democrats supposed to do if you apply it to first responders? firefighters respond to risky blaze and downtown. the constitution is on fire. the norms of the country are on fire because of this republican president and frankly this party lit the match. what do the democrats supposed to do. watch it all burn down in realtime and we are waiting for the election and the american people weighing in. it is ridiculous. thankfully, they did the right thing. it will stay now for the election and all of history, we'll not be able to say that the german chancellor did not respond at the time of hitler. the house of representatives responded as this blaze is happening realtime. >> we are talking about this the

other day as well, karine. your family and mine come from places there has been au-- had u see this threat as a train coming down the station. for a lot of americans does not feel it is an oncoming train. >> for many people like you mentioned our parents who grew up on dictatorship, they see the writing on the wall and they are scared. it looks like what donald trump is doing. just think about it. the corner stone of our democracy. the corner stone of our democracy. the president of the united states called a foreign government to ask them to interfere in our elections. one thing i want to say is the reason why the house was given back to the democrats, one of the reasons and not all of it was to hold this president accountable. that's what they did this week. >> jason, as a matter of mixture

if people are not voting on impeachment, does it have on the pl political side of view. >> telling all the democrats who came out in 2018 that the party they vote for will hold the president accountable. it is going to be what's happening with the economy and healthcare and how people feel whether or not the president can get this job done and make the country work. >> thank you very much, stick around and everybody who's not coming back before the end of the year, happy holidays and happy kwanzaa and everything else. >> coming up. happy hanukkah and happy everything. >> why 2020 is looking a lot like 2004. next. 2004. next

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we are going to washington, d.c. to take back the white house. howard dean came in third at the caucus in iowa. with john kerry taking the top spots. weeks before dean was leading the pack by a lot. polling leaders don't always win the caucus and politics is

always surprising. joining me now, retired westin clark and my colleague and my friend al sharpton. you have your two african-american candidates. it was a diverse field. it was notable how the lead kept on changing and the perception of who's electable was a big issue. the lead changing and electability was also part of the conversation. you must remember this was the first national race since 9/11. >> right. >> we were all having to deal with why people should vote for us when the country had been attacked, that was in everyone's

mind. and it was hard to get a lot of the civil rights and criminal justice and other issues out there. i want to put on the forefront. we have been under attack so everyone had to negotiate their lane and i think ended up doing as best as they could. >> i want to play you, this is a moment between yourself between howard dean. this was the most memorable debate of that cycle. here it is you are talking about an issue we are dealing with right now of issue s of race. >> we node to run on our agenda as democrats and not their divisid their devisive. we need people do something

about racism and discrimination. we need action and a president needs what lyndon johnson did. the point there again as you were say, there were all these issues about race and unfairness that you were trying to get back on the table and interestingly enough debate with howard dean. >> you must understand what the confederate flag means to us. dean and i ended up working together very well. a lot of the problem is you have the right and the left and the progressives and the moderates. the right has never been right with us. and the left goes out. that's still an argument that we still have. when i mean progressive even now

15 or 17 years later. i say progressive about what. many of them are progressive about narrow issues and not progressive across the board when it comes to race. nothing in my opinion progressive of being paternalistic, oh, we'll take care of y'all. we are able to take care of ourselves on a equal level. i think some of that is also in this grace we are dealing with 2020. >> kamala harris, was not able to get the spoupport and even among black voters. let's go to general wesley. the other thing is electability idea. you had the media convinced that your stature it was clear and that was transferred onto john kerry was the right way to go against the president, you did the national guards in texas

instead of serving in vietnam. there were big questions about lies that were told that got us into war and that turned out to be a media narrative that was not true. >> well, there was a war going on. americans were concerned about twhafs going on what was going on in the middle east. i got in the race on a draft because john kerry had operation for prostate cancer and we diplomat have any veterans. so a lot of people came to me and said you have to run. so i did run. it was a great experience. i didn't compete in iowa. john kerry spent many, many years preparing for this run in new hampshire and iowa. when he put his personal money in december and when a guy -- it

gave the democratic party a proven winner. lieutenant governor, he was a veteran and had declarations from vietnam. he was everything that democrats were looking at for a candidate. south carolina and then he pulled together the party as best he could. i think that's the way primary works. >> the thing that feels familiar, which was with a lot of voters. we could not afford it with the campaign. it turned out that none of it worked. what people thought electability was not what electability was. >> actually, john kerry, came very close and it came down to some disputes about the election in ohio. it rained on election night.

it was a very near run thing. you can look back on a campaign and say there was some mistakes. okay, we didn't carry the southern states and secretary carry made the statement that he does not need the south. maybe it hurt him in florida? don't know. he was not clear enough and condemn the war in iraq soon enough. people who are against the w war -- it was actually a near one thing and had it not rain in columb columbus, ohio, on election night. you know how voter selection worked? he would have been our 44th president. >> voter suppression in ohio was around the country.

there was this cancel thing going on that we were trying to tell people to avoid. if you did not vote against iraq, a lot of the democrats say i am not going to vote for you and john kerry others that were in that, rather than saying let's defeat bush. joe liebermann was up there. it would be something of a model ought of what they should be ware of 2020 which is why joy reid decided to do this. >> there is so much similar to this. let's hope the ending, we hope the ending is different. we'll see. thank you very much.

reverend al sharpton. appreciate you guys coming to us. >> eddie murphy returning to "saturday night live." last night with a whole bunch of special guests like kamala harris, i will explain it. likea harris, i will explain it. what'd we decide on the flyers again? uh, "fifteen minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance." i think we're gonna swap over to "over seventy-five years of savings and service." what, we're just gonna swap over? yep. pump the breaks on this, swap it over to that. pump the breaks, and, uh, swap over? that's right. instead of all this that i've already-? yeah. what are we gonna do with these? keep it at your desk, and save it for next time. geico. over 75 years of savings and service. when youyou spend lessfair, and get way more. so you can bring your vision to life

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senator harris, what are you doing here? you dropped out, remember? >> oh, this is a debate? honestly i have no idea. i was in the neighborhood. while i am here, i want to show you how good you could have had it america. i got tired of waiting so i walked my fine-ass out the door. you could have had a -- >> i challenge you to a push up contest, talking me and you and shirts off and nips out, first got to do it. >> oh, you are sure you are not afraid? >> there were plenty of political laughs on "saturday night live" last night. the big draw was eddie murphy returning to the show. look at this.

joining on stage by fellow comedy legends. tracy morgan, chris rock and dave chappelle. >> it is a beautiful day in the neighborhood, beautiful day, could you be mine, i am going for a bit but now i am all right. my neighbors are all black but now they're white. the white people came and changed everything but i am still your neighbor. >> you had to see the show live last night. it was funnier in person. go back and watch it. lizzo, hey, eddie murphy is back, y'all.

up next, more "a.m. joy." next,.

is there anything you can do to move this trial along or you have to wait for pelosi? >> chuck schumer and mitch mcconnell will proceed in the senate. >> there is no way she can't hol this position. >> mark shorts is really

confident that nancy pelosi will yield the articles of impeachment. nancy pelosi. >> joining me now is jill wine-banks. thank you all for being here. i got to go to jill wine-banks first. let me play one more. this is on "meet the press." you want to see a trial start as soon as possible. the president wants to prove his innocence. the president is articulating witnesses. >> at the same time the american people is tired of this sham and tired of this whole thing. i think we are anxious to get back to the work of the american people. there is a pro-long trial, we are not anxious for that. we are anxious to say let's get back to work for things that the american people wanted.

>> it sounds to me like the person who's actually under pressure here is mitch mcconnelmcconnell because the only person saying is mitch mcconnell. donald trump made it clear he's open to trial. that's what nancy pelosi wants too. >> donald trump may be open to witnesses until they are actually called. if he wanted those witnesses, he would have let them testify at the house. none of the witnesses that democrats want will excalpate the president. those are the witnesses that have direct knowledge of the facts that are at issue. they are the people who need to be heard by the american people so that american voters can judge for themselves whether the president has done what he's accused of. there is already ample evidence

of that. it is clear from those who have been brave enough to testify. as long as the president raises a question about, well, i am really innocent, there is nothing there and writes tota y totally letters to nancy pelosi. then we have to have those witnesses. i hope he's right. let the witnesses be called. let america have a trial. if there is not going to be a legitimate witnesses who have been withheld, there is no reason to go to a trial. there is absolutely nothing to be gained. it seems to me that the prosecution's best friend in the entire impeachment thing is donald trump. these senators only say things donald trump say they can say.

if any witnesses were to come forward, they would be rudy giuliani and people like mulvaney who all implicate trump. >> frankly i don't think the speaker has the right to do this or the power to do this. the speaker has a lot of power. once the house have spoken, the speaker does not get a decision as to whether or not she transmits that decision in the senate. i think this is pretty political anyway and this is sort of the icing on the political cake. >> they want this to be sent to the senate and donald trump wants witnesses. won't that be detrimental either way. if they get the trial, rudy giuliani buries him. >> joy, donald trump does not want any relevant witnesses.

what he wants are the hunter biden and whistleblower and trying to find some e-mails. he wants to make this into a show trial and being the showman that he is. he does not want john bolton to testify about what he saw in realtime of the abuses and the corruption and the crime inside the administration prompting him to call the whole dang thing a drug deal. you don't call it a drug deal unless it is pretty in criminating. one of the hingthings we are o s obsessed about, whether this trial will result in the removal of the president. the other precedent that'll be set in this trial and make no mistakes about it if these senators clear the president of wrong doing, they'll give him the green light for future in r

interference and attack every congressional funding bill and they pass and they'll be giving h i him the green light to con congressional oversight. we have a government that's not recognizable to us. they would have no authority over the presidency anymore. the presidency would be free to spend money. that's what the republicans are saying, go ahead and do that. here is ron johnson who was involved. nancy pelosi was pretty darn smart. she had him convulsing and demanding trials. they are freaking out because they can't have a trial. here is ron johnson. >> it is kind of bizarre, they had to rush to this impeachment vote and all of a sudden she's sitting on it.

i don't think the senate should make the case the house should have made in their presentation. the charges are pretty thin, i don't see anything impeachable in that. just not the job of the senate so make the case the house should have made in their impeachment articles. >> again, donald trump would not let their witnesses testify so now they're saying those witnesses did not testify, therefore, there is no case. now they're saying we demand the trial with none of those witnesses. democrats are never going to agree that. chuck schumer is not going to agree to that. either donald trump sit there and impeach in agony and gets no trial or the democrats negotiated a deal which some of these witnesses testified and neither of these are good for him. i don't see how any of this is good for him. and finally, i love it, right? i love the fact that the

democrats, nancy pelosi finally had the republicans in stitches and squirming. and they are powerless finally, right? for a long time we have seen republicans played this game. when mcconnell refused to see mayor garland. he was the one in charge and calling shots and for a long time myself and a lot of people had been saying why are democrats playing the same exact game and not for wrong doing. mitch mcconnell did it to subvert the constitution. what nancy pelosi is doing is in order to get to the truth. she's doing it so that she can get to the truth and have these witnesses testify. this is not you know the next episode of impeachment today. we want a real trial where all the evidence can be heard and everybody can come to a conclusion on their own. i also want to say what i think

is much disparagining when you play some of those clips, when officials had independent thought. why are they all following in line hook and sinker behind donald trump. there is no individuality anymore. and i can't understand how the people who put these men and women into office are comfortable with that. >> here is the problem. >> there is no individual thought at all. it is like a colt. >> it is a monarchism. >> it is also corruption by the way. >> that's not going to work in colorado, arizona, it is not going to work in maine. some of these republican senators can't take it home and sell that. that's the problem for them. jill wine-banks and midwin and charles. thank you for that. up next, "who won the week." extt psoriatic arthritis...

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television god, what time is it? it is time for "who won the week." tiffany, jason kari, and karine back with me. jason johnson, who won the week? >> the first winner is all the

black people of the state of new jersey. this time they are because of the passage of the crown act this week which makes it illegal to discriminate black people whether you are a bald or fro or sheen, and the lieutenant governor probably had something to do with that. and the second is the wakanda is that they have become trade partner partners, and there was a fake country nak to zumunda and i was hoping to get some vibranium for christmas, but there. >> and this head style in wakanda is very much in style. >> yes. >> awesome.

>> and the pressure is on joy, because i have got this one. i got one. and i think that you will like this one, and my winner of the week is the "watchmen" besides it being and online phenomenon and 1.6 million people tuned in for the final episode of the season, and it also had regina king as a black female hero who alone wins the week, but it also went head-in, and deep, deep in into the racial injustice and the white supremacy and the first episode talked about the 1921 tulsa race massacre which is buried in a commune they is called the black black wall street destroyed by the white stre supremists, and so i believe they "who won the week," and also it intrigued the media and deep dive into that as well.

so "watchmen" wins. >> and the only person as obsessed with "watchmen" as me is tiffany. and it is karine talking about this all week. >> yes. >> and it is so good. >> so good. >> so, so good. >> and damon, and the ending of his bad ending of "loss" and he has redeemed himself. i forgive you for the way you ended "lost" because of that ending incredible. >> yes. >> and the pressure. and so much pressure. >> my first time i feel so intimidated by "who won the week." >> wakanda and "watchmen" and all of us are abuzz. >> and jason named two winners and so he is disqualified. and kareen only named one. >> okay. i feel good about my choice, and

we talked about it a lot of the show, but i have to say that eddie murphy won the week for me, because seeing him out in person, and for those of us who grew up watching his sketches. it was something about seeing it in the holiday season when you are feeling nostalgic, and they somehow made it relevant, and mr. robinson's neighborhood that was gentryfied is so good. >> yes. >> and even though he did not do all of the characters, there are so many characters that i was thinking of after not seeing it so long, and you remember the black richard simmons' character, and him and james brown. >> yes, yes. >> and the hot tub, yes. >> i hoped he had brought in

stevie wonder. that would have been great. >> and yes, so amazing. >> so good. >> but what is touching is to see tracy morgan and chris rock and dave schappelle who i am so obsessed with. and my kid wanted to tweet out that these are our founding fathers. >> midwin mentioned that tweet, and i wanted to put it on the instagram. and amazing. and the audience was stacked as well. i was at the rehearsal version of the show, and it was so hilarious and funny and extra skits and i had to go home to go to bed, so i don't know what made the show, but he did gumby and all of the characters. >> they lost control of gumby and that is the funniest. >> and yes. >> and he is brilliant and he is a genius and i'm so glad that he is back. and the couple of the movies that he has coming out. >> "coming to america." i cannot wait. >> yes. >> yes.

i >> cannot wait. >> it is the classic line. >> and we will be singling it the rest of the year. >> and so there is going to be a great deal out of it with the wakand and wh wakanda comes out and the trump people know you ain't real. >> it going to scare them coming to america. >> and not only did they accomplish the week with the pundits and the shade was so real, and the great wiz doms cracked up the constitution of a separation of powers and the three co-equal branches of branchs to call on a check of balance and to as if to say, baby, you are going through a lot that i put you through, but

come over to dinner to talk about it. and that is the most black auntie speaker thing i have seen. >> and last year we talked about her winning, because she handled him like the black panther. >> yes. >> i love you forever. and we have to go. and tiffany cross, and charles and kari ekarine, thank you all much. karine, thank you all so much. is

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that's our show for today, and thank you for watching our show, and up next, my friend alex witt. >> thank you. and may i wish you a merry christmas and the happy holiday and all of that stuff, because i won't see you until the other side. >> and you have a merry christmas and i will see you next season, next year. >> okay. good-bye. >> and for all of you here from msnbc headquarters, welcome to "weekends with alex witt" and the anticipation is building on capitol hill as the picture is clearer of what happens next in the impeachment of donald trump. >> those articles will come over, and i talked to chuck schumer this week and they will, but what she is trying to do is to have the best possible case for when a fair trial happens. >> they had to rush to the impeachment vote and now she is sitting on it. >> this isoo