unity while outside line of royal succession also in full view. >> all right that. does it for us on this thursday morning. i'm jolene alongside ayman. "morning joe" starts right now. we have dirty cops, we have people spying on my campaign. they did terrible things. the likes of which have never been done in the history of our country. it's very sad. all right, have a good time, everybody. merry christmas. >> hey, merry christmas, y'all, that's a good happy christmas eve greeting from the president of the united states. that was president trump raling against dirty cops and fake news before wishing you and yours a merry christmas. welcome to "morning joe," it's december 26th. great to have you here. hope you had a great christmas. we have chief national correspondent mark leibovich and his story the author of "soul of

america" and rogers professor, the presidency of vaernd built university, he's an nbc news and msnbc contribute by thetor jon meacham. karine will be with us in a moment as will mark. i couldn't help think of you this hol siday season as one of the wealthiest men in prison was using his get out and vote campaign. i mean, well, your wit, i mean, a profile has to be -- >> i'm not -- >> has to be coming up there. but, i mean, it's straight out of a charles dykens novel, isn't it? >> yeah, it was a great -- well, this happens what? i guess the day before christmas and who broke the story?

was it the intercept that mike bloomberg or his campaign or some contractor affiliated with the campaign was enlisting prison labor to make some kind of phone call related to the campaign and the campaign quickly was publicly horrified and said that they discontinued the relationship. yeah, i mean, it's exactly the kind of story that you love to see the day before christmas. but looks like didn't -- it didn't blow up the campaign, the campaign seems to be alive and kicking and here we. >> well, again, it's -- i mean, in 2019, it's hard to blow up a campaign in the age of trump. >> exactly. >> no matter what you do. jon meacham, of course you, of course, being the amiss pailian was that you are, you, i understand, only use methodists to do work around your house.

it's something you understand. talk, if you will, it's very interesting throughout the weekend this "christianity today" editorial got good pickup. a lot of people talk about it. and the atlantic had a story that caught my eye about leaf anderson who has one of the large large largest evangelical groups in the country. thts evangelical leader is a strange, strange man. he's an outlier. he is actually like the preachers that i grew up with who actually would rather talk about jesus than politics. and that's whether you're for trump or whether you're against trump. i mean, there was a time in america where pastors were concerned primarily with the faith of their flock and

spreading the word to others. and to not get as ensnarled in politics as they have over the past 30 years. but there are some who say, hey, listen, my job's not to talk about politics, i've got the greatest message ever given to any man or woman or child. and i'm going to spread that message. it's -- it really harkens back to those premor moral majority days, doesn't it? >> as everything is, it's complicated. the abolitionist movement, the civil rights movement was driven in large part by religious fervor. martin luther king was a bankruptist pastor. so there's been a great tradition of people motivated by

religious conviction staying the life of the nation in immensely positive ways. so there is that. you know, in terms of the last 30, 40 years, i would really date it from either 1962 and the school prayer decision, i used to go to political rallies. i was covering politics in north georgia. it was -- it turns out it's now doug collins' district. and you probably saw this in pensacola. there would be people with homemade signs there listing social indicators, divorce, abortion, murder, all from -- know the from 1973, from roe, but from 1962 from engel versus vitaly. where they believed if you took god out of the classroom, that america had been sontet on a

seemingly irreversible decline. they admit, to yus your phrase, he was about saving souls, not winning notes, until the morning he read about the roe decision in january of 1973. and that transformed what he was about. you know, cal thomas saw this coming, the columnist. he coauthored a book 30 years ago or so-called blinded by the might. blinded by the might where he worried that the religious right would replace the pursuit -- would replace the pursuit of virtue and salvation and spreading the gospel message, which is the central injunction of the new testament, with political power. and that's what's happened. a lot of folks who profess this faith have become pursuers of

four and the n power and not reledgeous message. >> i read about this in "the washington post" the number of people in christian knitty has been reduced to the number of federal judgeships. it really has. if you -- if you hold a position different on abortion or on the family and what constitutes the family, nothing else matters, which of course has given donald trump free rein do whatever he has wanted to do. if you say as so many on the right say get me federal judges who agree with me on one issue, then you have just signed a blank check for donald trump to run around to doing everything donald trump says for saying the second article two gives me unlimited power, i can do whatever i want to do. i can hug vlad pud, i can

turnover the middle east to him, i can -- i can make a fool of myself in north korea. i can attack federal judges, i can attack the press, and i can behave as if article two does give the president of the united states unlimited power. i can do grave violence to those madisonian checks and balances that conservatives ran around talking about, those checks and balances to stop the executive branch from becoming too powerful if the you say i only care about the collection of federal judges as not only a lot of republicans have done but also a lot of so-called religious leaders, so called leaders of the evangelical faith, it's so-called, they're not religious leaders, they're politicians, then i think cal thomas was right. then this is not about faith,

this is about power. and that's -- that's a real reckoning that's coming not only to the evangelical church but to the church in general. david ignatius, recent op-ed for "the washington post." you wrote this about how americans can break our bitter impasse. you write in part, it's cheering this christmas week to repeat the promine love thigh neighby many of us seem to hate our numbers. we don't understand how other people can oppose the values we chair riv risch most. their behavior sin fewer rating and it often seems unforgivable. if we are lucky we escape this blockage not conceding our old grief answers but putting them aside. actually putting grievance aside. it doesn't work in politics. when each side's narrative becomes inflamed and reinforced bipartisan politicians and media

koent commentators and is reconciliation possible or desiebl when fundamental matters of principle seem to be at stake in more and more i hear people expressing doubt about compromise and reconciliation in the age of trump. that's part of what makes politics so poe tent atent and s dangerous. it's not the art of the deal but frankly our death. america doesn't feel to me like a country hided toward a second civil war. turn off the television. amen. go to a ball game. listen to some music. and the din from washington fades. this season, i i'd bet that a version of our love thy neighbor is a political winner. as angry as people are, most americans want a way out. truer words never written and

certainly when comes to american politics mika and i through the years have probably given hundreds and hundreds of talks at colleges, rote terry clubs. someplace in iowa, middle america, people are so tired of the infighting. and that's not me being pollyannaish, that's my political antenna going up. that if you can prove to americans that you're strong and you're powerful and you're not just looking, you know, powerful personality and you're not just looking for the mushy middle, that you want, like, you know, reagan, like lbj, like fdr, you're strong enough to bring people together and sort of force a political peace upon them. they want that sort of leader

that's going to bring america together again. >> joe, i found myself in this christmas week trying to think differently about politics as i wrote in this column. i have written dozens this year about our political impasse, the dark days that lie ahead for america, all the things that we worry about. we talk about most mornings. and tried to think, is is there a different way to look alt theat these issues? and obviously if you're a christian your faith tells you that yue you ne that you need to begin with the sermon on the mount. like you ought to not just, you know, love your friends, you ought to love your enemies too. you ought to reach out to the people who you think have wra wronged you and try to somehow break the impasse with them.

i kept thinking about that in our personal lives i think every one offo one of us knows there's a truth to that. we have trouble with our friends, relatives, marital partners, and the only way out of them is to reset and escape that corner into which we've backed ourselves. i've been wondering, is there a similar thing that can happen in politics with people who are so angry at each other, each is so convinced they're right. and official i wouldnbviously id that i came up with an answer, by did try to think this through and what you coated at the equo i think the people thatsies want to love my neighbor and be the candidate that can do that has a powerful message this year, more than usual. i don't know, is joe biden that person? i don't know. but it's a message that the public really wants to hear. >> you know, karine, it's so

interesting you've always heard the saying the generals are always fighting the last war. i've always felt that in politics. people look at the results as the election booth as buckley wrote in his great manifest from last week, and are chained to that. believe that becomes the new reality. donald trump won by -- you know, donald trump won the election, but he lost the popular vote by a greater total than nixon and jimmy carter and jfk all three won their elections. it was a strange political race and yet we seem to tie our political realities all to what happened on that one day in 2016 as if that's the future that we -- we are stuck with in the future. and yet, you know, i disagree

with that. i think -- i think that was an anomaly, historical anomaly that people are going to be shaking their heads about 30 years going to wait a second, how did that happen? and yet you see a party, my old party, you see a church, my current church, the evangelicals, and you see commentators who support donald trump saying the most hateful things because they think that's the future. they think that's -- i saw two things pred yesterdyesterday, i twitter briefly because i knew ways going to do this show. in the afternoon i went into a darkened corner and said i'm going to look at this for a minute or two. two of the first tweets i saw was a very well known donald trump supporter attacking jill biden for giving food to hungry refugees on christmas day.

and i sat there thinking about the sermon on the mount, as david said, and all those wonderful red letters in the bible. jesus' words, the story of the good samaritan, helping a foreigner when his own people wouldn't help him. and i thought, is there more unchrist-like tweet on kmis dchs day than that? tha and then i scrolled down and it said this is the true reason for the season. and it showed hillary clinton and bill clinton almost being harmed by falling lights. and i sat there thinking, these poor fools think that this is the new reality and they're going to be rewarded for this sort of activity being that hateful to attack a woman for actually helping poor, hungry

refugees on christmas day. i mean, obviously they never read matthew 25 about, you know, when you give -- give food to the hungry or clothing to the naked or give hope to the hopeless. it's as if you were giving to jesus himself. and yet, this is the state of politics for many people who follow donald trump in 2019. >> it is the state of politics, exactly, joe. if you think about it, donald trump is the symptom to your point about it shouldn't be the norm. this is not supposed to be the way that things are going to be in the future. donald trump is not the future. and if you look at the last three years, joe, just putting on my political analysis hat, we've seen the change. we've seen how people are tired of this. if you look at how democrats won in these red districts, why did

they win in these red districts back in 2018 and give over the house to democrats? because you had these suburban voters who said enough is enough. we are tired of this. we are tired of the madness and they hand over the reins to democrats in the house. if you think about louisiana, think about kentucky, the same exact thing. these suburban voters who voted for donald trump in 2016 said enough of this craziness, enough of all of this nastiness that we see from this president. and then you see this coalition of suburban voters, black voters, independents handing the reins back or over to democrats. so we're seeing a change. this is not supposed to be the norm and it will not be the norm. and it is devastating to see when you think about evangelicals, when you think with your old party who are supposed to be the parties of rule of law, patriotism, handing that all over to donald trump. when you think about

evangelicals handing over christianity, it doesn't exist anymore. it's a very sad time that we're in. but the voters are speaking out in the last three years. they're saying enough is enough and now we're heading into 2020 and so now this is where the big -- kind of the big opportunity to make sure that we hold donald trump accountable. >> and, jon meacham, obviously christianity exists and is doing well across the globe in many respects. but the evangelicals that you and i grew up around, still many go to church and worship the lord and keep politics out of it. but it is -- it is something that there are very loud, very outspoken people, leaders of the faith who actually have -- have basically turned their back on

basic core beliefs that you can find in the sermon on the mount, in jesus' parables. just for a white house photo, just for the ability to appear on tv and be seen as one of the president's selected preachers. i saw one comment from -- from someone who -- an evangelical preacher who had worked with donald trump who said the reason they always fall in line, these -- these public preachers, is because they -- they can't handle the shame of a negative tweet or being disassociated or being outside the reach of power. >> yeah. yeah, as the psalm is said, put not their triey trust in prince

it begins with love thy neighbor as thigh sey self, love the lor god and on these commandments hang all the law and profits. not a word there about a meet and greet with donald trump. not a word there about a democratic nominee. this is a larger point than the partisan divisions at the moment, and it's all about how a republic works, right? it's -- a republic is the u.s. its parts. we' u. sum of its parts. it matters enormously because they find expression in the public square. madison was very, very clear

that he understood religion would play a role in the life of the country. we had to separate church from state, but we couldn't separate religion from politics because they're both about people, they're about how people think and how they act. and so this has always been an incredibly important american balancing act. how do you manage and marshal religious feeling in the public arena in a way that protects the rights of believers but does not tend toward theocracy. and at our best we have found that balance. it is always precarious. it's like everything else in the country. it is always precarious. and it depends on all of us. and it depends on a certain level of humility. the capacity to recognize, again, to go to the bible, who has known the mind of the lord? who's been his counselor? if you want to believe that

youyou really understand what the lord of hosts wants, take a if you minutes today and go read job, see how well that worked out. that's in many ways the most important text in the bible about humility, understanding that the will of god on this side of paradise is a mystery, and let's work through this using our reason and using a sense of humility, of balance, of forbearance. and politics is complicated enough, that's what the founders understood. they were coming from a world where they were fighting wars over the formulation in the cannon canon of the mass. this was going for hard enough to set this will continent and project that government and power. they were trying to keep religious struggles out of politics. i think that the forward leaning religious folks for whom that is the central social identifier should find a way, seems to me,

to think of their citizenship and their faith in a way that is not absolutely one but is a balance between those two things. >> and the balance needs to be restored and it certainly will. still ahead on "morning joe," president president trump has mitch mcconnell in his pocket. he can't say the same thing about lisa murkowski. how the republican from alaska is shaking up the impending impeachment trial in the senate. is. first crack in that wall of support that donald trump's enjoyed since the impeachment inquiry has begun? we'll talk about that when "morning joe" comes back. we'lln "morning joe" comes back. as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. at liberty butchemel... cut. liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. cut. liberty m... am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water?

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she hates the republican party. she hates all of the people that voted for her. >> that was the president on

christmas eve morning shortly after he participated in a video conference where he exchanged holiday greetings with members of the military stationed around the globe. the anger for nancy pelosi continued into the night where he questioned whether the house had the authority to impeach him. he tweeted last night part, quote, why should crazy nancy pelosi, again, on christmas, just because she has a slight majority in the house be allowed to impeach the president of the united states? perhaps the president should do something that he's never done before and read the constitution of the united states. he might actually understand how the speaker of the house has that power. of either party. meanwhile, one key republican senator lisa mur kokowski is disappointed with mitch

mcconnell to be -- >> when i heard that i was disturbed. if we are tasked as the full senate to do impartial justice under the constitution and the law, that's the oath that we will swear to uphold at the commencement of this proceeding, then, to me, it means that we have to take that step back from being hand in glove with the defense. and so i -- i heard what looeea mcconnell had said. i happen to think that that has further confused the process. >> murkowski's remarks are significant because a 51-vote simple majority is all that's needed to set impeachment rules. republicans only have 53 votes, meaning democrats would need four republicans to break ranks

and actually call for witnesses. call for evidence. call for the very things, deputy virtions fo depositions, the very things that republicans called for and got in '99 and got with president clinton. senator murkowski are the first signs so far of any dissent within the gop. only a few republicans are needed to stop mitch mcconnell from ranunning a moscow, style show trial where you have the judge and the jury saying, i'm not going to be fair, i'm not interested in being fair. we're going to work with the defendant to make sure this is a show trial, to make sure this is a scam proceeding. but you've got murkowski, susan

collins, cory gardner, maybe martha mcsally, thom tillis, a lot of people who are going to be in the fight for their political life next fall. they need four if the do you thi think they can get there? >> i do. this argument is going to be had very much in the center. and lisa murkowski, susan collins, possibly mitt romney, these are these centrists in so much as there are swing votes in the senate these days. these are the people that everyone will be looked at. and their remarks like such as the one that murkowski made yesterday are going to be scrutinized not just as a signal of what one senator might do, but who there is some kind of block in the middle of all of this that actually could prove decisive if there is an impasse over witnesses. and, look, murkowski and collins in particular are two very independent senators. they like to try to sort of fashion themselves that way.

murkowski herself got elected as an independent in alaska her last -- in her last re-election. and susan collins in addition to sort of trying to toe that line is also up for re-election in 2020. so, mine, those two in particular. but also mitt romney has shown a willingness to be quite independent over this, at least in his public remarks. and i think that, again, everything that these senators say in the next few weeks will be scrutinized beyond what a normal senator would be because i think we're going to be seeing this as an indicator of where the center of the senate in so much as there is some, is going to be. >> so, david ignatius, it's interesting some it impeople watchi some people watching lisa plur kows ski say she's going to get primaried, how dare she do that. lease wa as already primaried. she was primaried by a tea party, she ran as an independent

and won. so she has less fear than most of the other republicans there. but you just have to wonder if susan collins who, again, she's just in a terrible, terrible predicament politically that she put herself in. but cory gardner, again, who say long sh is a long shot at best. we heard the name mitt romney, haven't heard his name in a while. you're wondering if some of these republicans who are trying to figure out a way to survive in rough political times don't follow lisa murkowski's example so they can go back to their voters and say at least, at least i fought for a fair trial. >> i think that's what we're beginning to see, murkowski was brave and forthright in saying what you're hearing privately on

capitol hill over the last week. this is th which is that the senate has to look like an impartial body as it weighs the evidence. that the idea that you have an ineffective trial presided over by the chief justice where mitch mcconnell has said what the verdict's going to be, other republicans have rushed to make donald trump feel better after he was impeached by saying, don't worry, boss there is going to be a rubber stamp, that seems to have stopped. i think one of the smart things that nancy pelosi, the house speaker did, was to slow the process down after the articles of impeachment were passed and let the republicans stew for a little bit. it's now been about a week. which they have to think, okay, you know, what are the rules of the trial going to be? mcconnell was implying that they just race this through and no witnesses, just get it done. that's looking less likely now. i do think that a key person down the road is mitt romney.

his first reaction when news began to break about the presidential pressure on ukraine that delivered political favors was, in his words troubling in the extreme. and donald trump's response was to say that mitt romney was a pompous ass. that was a quote. and there's nothing in it for romney really. why does he need to curry favor with donald trump? he'll get re-elected in utah pretty much no matter what. so i think we're going to see an interesting month or so when congress gets back as the rules are sorted out. and i'd be surprised if the senate -- senate republicans didn't decide they lead to something that looked like a fair trial just for reasons of self-interest. >> well, and it is so shocking. let's bring in former u.s. attorney from the northern district of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. she has a piece for "time"

magazine entitled trump maybe acquitted in a senate impeachment trial, that's not the same as being exonerated. you know, joyce, i said it's so shocking and i stopped my self-self becauself self because in the age of trump, what's shocking is when you not only have the senate majority leader saying i'm not going to be fair, i'm not going to be impartial, this is going to be like a russian show trial, it's going to be -- you know, it's going to be fixed before it even begins, which is what he said. and then you have the chairman of the senate judiciary committee. that's a position growing up i think we all looked upon with reverence, whether a republican was running it or a democrat was running it, whoever, that's such -- it seems like such an important position in the life of our republic, and yet the chairman of that committee, lindsey graham, has said i'm not

going to be fair, i'm not going to be impartial, and, you know, we're going to run a show trial. he basically said that. we're going to get this done as quickly as possible. i don't -- i don't want -- this is the same guy who said i'm not reading anything. i don't want to reads any -- i don't want to know any information. and that's where we are. i'm not so sure, joyce, that that doesn't even backfire in south carolina on lindsey graham who may actually have a more difficult battle in had the general election than he thinks. i certainly know it can't help cory gardner and thom tillis and susan collins, it can't help martha mcsally. and, again, what does mitt romney have to lose? does he want to be remembered as a guy who voted with mitch mcconnell to help donald trump have a show trial? to have a scam trial in the senate?

thi i think not. >> i think you're right about this, joe. there's a political price to be paid for treating an impeachment trial in a cavalier fashion. none of this would be tolerated in the criminal justice system. people would be asking for judges and prosecutors to be prosecuted if there was that sort of complicity. this is a hybrid that has both aspects of the criminal justice system but the political aspect. the senators sit as jurors who judge what facts the evidence proves, but they also get to make the rules, taking on part of the job that we typically assigned to a judge in a criminal trial. but with that said, the american people are pretty sophisticated about using trials as a truth telling sort of an exercise. they will expect something here that looks like what they've come to expect in the criminal system, a process winning at the gritty where they hear from the

witness who's have relevant information. i think if witness who's were close to the president are suppressed, if we never hear their testimony, the process won't be perceived as a fair one and ultimately voters may put a price tag on this and may impose pain on some of these senators in vulnerable states come the election in 2020. >> karine. >> hey, joyce, this is karine. if you were giving advice to democrats in the senate right now as we're trying to figure out how to, you know, what's going on, nancy pelosi's clearly holding on to the articles of impeachment because she wants a fair trial, what would you be advising democrats right now, chuck schumer? what would you be telling him and how can he make this a fair trial? what can he be doing? >> you know, joe and jon meacham had a really interesting conversation at the start of the show where they talked about how turned off people across the

country are by this political squabbling that seems to go on constantly. and what democrats need to do here is what we've all talked about throughout the trump presidency. they need to set aside party and think about country first. so they should act in all ways in fairness in the interests of justice and, you know, it maybe sounds a little bit pollyannaish, but i think what they need to do is have only one goal here for this to be a truth-telling process that's fair to both the president and to the citizens of the united states and to insist on getting that process. >> so is that possible, jon meacham? >> sure. the madison once said if anything is to be hoeinged, everything must be tried. and i think that's a sense of forward-leaning optimism that we should have. you know, we've been talking

about the religious right here, we haven't mentioned rynehold yet. >> it happens because it's a christmas tradition at least around our house that we'll read aloud from the irony of christmas history. the kids love it. >> they do. >> but there is the sense that we have to, as the ha graepigra the sad duty of politics to establish justice in a sinful world. these processes that we have that joyce is talking about, these conventions and the entire structure of law and society is about doing the best we can to check our appetites and ambitions and try to get to the best possible result. not the best result, right?

it's the best possible result. and that's true in any legal proceeding. you put it in the united states senate and it's even more complicated because of the political motivations of so many of the jurors. but i think senator murkowski was interesting on this. i agree with what everybody said about the different senators who might want to do it. you know, seems to me, you can argue that let's take the president at his word and if this was a perfect call, let's learn more about it. >> yeah. well, it's something we should do and something hopefully that lisa murkowski will lead the way to find at least a handful of republicans who will want a fair hearing for the president. a fair trial for the president. and not a show trial which will, of course, only have him marked down as guilty at least in the

eyes of historians for hundreds of years. let's have a fair trial, let's have an open trial, get all the evidence in that we can and know the facts. a light, it has been said, many times, is the best disinfectant. joyce vance, thank you so much. we'll be reading your piece in "time" magazine and we appreciate youth today. coming up next, president trump jokes about north korea's tla christmas gift. we'll be talking to david ignatius and dig straight into that next on "morning joe." dio that next on "morning joe." us. it's what this country is made of.

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threatening a christmas surprise for the world? >> that's okay. we'll find out what the surprise is and we'll deal with it very successfully. let's see what happens. everybody's got surprises for me, but let's see what happens. i handle them as they come along. you saw that these are great people. our military's now replenished. we were totally depleted when i came into office, and it's -- it's great stuff. it's great stuff.

what's happened. and you see these incredible people. we have the best in the world. it's totally replenished. new equipment's coming in on a daily basis. it's being all made in the usa. and our economy is the strongest it's ever been. >> what options are you considering, mr. president, if it does end up being a long-range missile test? >> we'll see what happens. we'll see what happens. maybe it's a nice present. maybe it's a present where he sends me a beautiful vase as opposed to a missile test. right? i may get a vase. i may get a nice present from from him. you don't know. you never know. >> no, i don't know, donald, it's very hard to follow you. it's especially difficult to follow who actually says the military was completely depleted when he came into power when actually the united states was spending more on defense than the next 16, 17, 18 countries on the planet. we've had some problems in the

united states, but certainly spending too much on defense or too little on defense, actually, has not been one of those for a very long time. that was, of course, donald trump on tuesday when he was asked about north korea leader kim jong-un hinting at a, quote, christmas gift for the u.s. david ignatius, this past weekend i've been reading up on harry truman, fascinated by the president that set up -- set up these institutions and set up these doctrines whether you're talking about, you know, the truman delaware coun truman doctrine in response to greece, turkey, nato, the marshal plan, i've been reading up on truman, the extraordinary things did he in four or five years that actually, you know, saved democracy across europe for the next 50 years. a lot of these institutions donald trump's trying to tear apart. as he was gaining momentum it

was korea. it was the issue of korea that actually undercut him, distracted him, which he responded to very well. but here we are all of these years later and we're still dealing with korea. and donald trump specifically, at least it looks like it from my vantage point have not hathd kor handled korea well. he's given a photo op to kim jong-un and in response they've sped up testing and it looks like more's to come. where do we stand right now with north korea? >> joe, north korea is, you might say that the toothache that just don't go away. you forget about it for a while but it's still there. and as potentially difficult and dangerous as ever. president trump's tactic toward north korea, i would sum up in the word flattery, flirtation.

he has tried to develop a mentor, kind of uncle-like relationship with kim jong-un after an initial period of intense rhetoric in 2007. he opened the way for a historic summit in singapore in june of 2018. and there was a hope that, perhaps there are was laying the foundation for real discussion about denuclearization of the korean peninsula that was promised by the two leaders at that singapore summit. we've been waiting every sin sio see what that commitment looks like in practice. what are the ways in which two countries move towards meaningful denuclearization . there was a second summit in hanoi this summer that was supposed to set the specifics and it was a bust if the was a

complete failure. the north koreans made an offer that the u.s. thought wasn't even close to being in the ballpark. the u.s. made a counteroffer the north koreans found insulting. the summit blew up, everybody went home, and we've been in kind of limbo ever since. and kim jong-un is reminding us with all this talk about the christmas surprise that he's not going to wait forever. so this issue is going to come back big time for dplufonald tr in 2020. it's an election year, it's a year when he doesn't seem to want to be on the nuclear brink with anybody. he wants to be seen as a strong, self-confident leader. kim jong-un is going to make that difficult. he's going to do something disruptive, that's the way he operates. and i don't see any sign of the u.s. has yet figured out the basic issue at the core of this, which is how do we get north korea to begin to actually give up its nukes?

what do we offer this em? how do we use china as leverage to get to that point? i don't see any answers yet. >> there are no good answers and we've been saying it around the table for some time now. ma mark, north korea is not going to give up their nuclear weapons. whatever comes out of this, denuclearization will not be the result. barack obama told donald trump that he could complain about obamacare all he wanted to during the transition, he said this to him, you said, but it's going to be north korea that's going to keep you up at nights. i don't know if that's what keeps donald trump up at night, but it should because north korea's not going to give up their nuclear weapons. and donald trump made the miss

stask believing mi mistake he could go over, shake kim jong-un's hand and we would all live happily ever after. told us afterward we don't have to worry about their nuclear missiles or weapons anymore and here we. >> he did say that. look, the clip that you just showed doesn't exactly, you know, invoke the sort of president who has a plan here. what this is, as david said, it's an ongoing toothache. it will rear its head in the very near future. i don't think that this issue has moved forward at all. i think if anything it's an embarrassment to the president and i think there's going to be a lot of juxtaposition between his remarks, you know, at various points saying this threat has been diminished, this threat no longer is something that we have to worry about to whatever happens next. and you know that there's going to be another chapter here. >> it's coming. mark, thank you so much. we really appreciate you being with us today. still to come this morning, a distinction that no journalist

wants. media matters. it's put together a list of actually the person they believe is the misinformer of the year. that's next on "morning joe." f that's next on "morning joe." when you shop with wayfair, you spend less and get way more. so you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one.

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in time, through his teaching and by his example, jesus christ would show the world how small steps taken in faith and in hope can overcome long-held differences and deep seeded divisions to bring harmony and understanding. many of us already try to follow in his footsteps. the path, of course, is not always smooth. and may at times this year have felt quite bumpy. but small steps can make a world of difference. as christmas stormed, church

congregations around the world joined in singing it came upon the midnight clear. like many timeless carols, it speaks not just of the coming of jesus christ into a divided world many years ago, but also of the relevance even today of the angels' mess age of peace a and good will. it's a timely reminder of what positive things can be achieved which people set aside past differences and come together in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. >> that was part of queen elizabeth's 68th annual christmas speech that aired yesterday in the united kingdom. jon meacham, my lord. these 93, which of course tells me that we all need to walk in gold, rainy, brisk, scottish mountains. it must be the key to her health. but she's 93. i can't even count the number of

prime ministers that have come and formed their government with her. but just think, she has been queen in the time that eisenhower, kennedy, lbj, nixon, ford, jimmy carter, reagan, 41, clinton 43, barack obama and donald trump have been president of the united states. and she really -- she -- she has, unlike her reckless uncle who i think shaped her view of not only the crown, but life itself, she has remained the rock of great britain for decade after decade and after bumpy year after bumpy year. often brought on some of those bumpy years brought on by her

own children. >> yeah. she's been on the throne longer than victoria, her great, great grandmother, i guess. and the remarkable resilience. walter badgette, the economic withi economist who wrote a book talked about how they had a dignified element and an efficient element and in america we combine the two and britain they separate the two, the monarch and the sovereign and the efficient being parliament. her first prime minister was winston churchill which tells you something. she served in the war. she was a mechanic, i think. and one of my favorite moments, one of the great lines of all time is during the blitz the queen mother, the first queen

elizabeth was asked when will the girls leave london? and the queen mother said, they shall not leave london without nebraska me. i should never leave without the king and the king shall never lev leave london. she has stood, just passing american thing, churchill actually helped insert an anti-joe mccarthy note in one of her important -- in her coronation message in the early '50s if the was about the rule of law and the importance of, again, everything old is new again, the importance of following evidence. the importance of following the angelo-american tradition of jurisprudence wherever it might go. she's been a witness and both a maker and mirror of history.

and some folks may hear this and think we're just getting all gooey because of netflix or whatever. but there is something fund mental and perennial in the human character that responds to familiar figures who try to represent a kind of continuity amid the inevitability of change. and i think that's what britain has given the word with elizabeth. >> i think russell kirk might describe her as a conservator, a guardian. >> right. >> in a remarkably fluid, t turmultuous age. we have moved from alcultural in the 18 hundreds to industrial,

but her -- those -- great britain, united states, the world is still trying to endure the change brought about by technology that's completely wiped clean industries that used to serve as our way of life. and whether you talk about social turmoil, political turmoil, religious turmoil, queen lips haelizabeth has rema steady conservator of her belief system. which, of course, we saw again yesterday includes a very deep faith to get her family through world war ii. i remember when buckingham palace, i remember reading about buckingham palace being bombed and the nagzis being sure that

this would discourage the brits. did didn' it didn't. they saw their king walking through the rubble of the parts of the pal tlace that were bomb and it brought the country together. >> britain is lucky to have a head of the state, as jon meacham said, they separate the head of government and the head of state and they have a set of sta head of state, this dignified, white-haired lady who is impossible not to like. she does speak for the nation in a special way. she's been through so much trauma herself well her own family that i think is the reason that people relate to her as a real person. she's had terrible divorces and difficulty, deaths among the daughter, daughter-in-law, other family problems. but she- endures and for britai

it's a time of great uncertainty and difficulty. but there's the queen speaking for the country right after the boris johnson election as prime minister heading toward brexit, britain's uncertain about where the country's going, there's the queen. we don't have that situation. we have the two roles leading the government and head of state personifying the nation embodied in the presidents. one reason we've expected our presidents to step up and be, we say presidential. by think that we mean they need to be people who will lead the country as a monarch does with some of those functions, standing for the state itself when we look not to personalize it to much, but when we look at president trump and that's think the embodiment of our state. that's why people are sometimes so troubled, he's taking on the role as both the prime minister and regent because our system combines them. but i, you know, every time i go

back toniengland i want to be invited to a party at buck ham palace. i once was. i don't know if you've ever had that experience but i desperately thought how i do get in line? so maybe, maybe, maybe i could shake hands with the queen and all these couriers span the lawn and basically tell you forget it. but if you were close enough to the queen to actually -- here's what you do. >> yeah. >> but, you know, it's -- monarchies are great to admire from afar. it's not that i really want to have one in america. but every time i see the queen and a speech like the one you just played, i think she's pretty great. >> well, david ignatius, you your desperate cry for an invite has gone out across the atlantic and will be heard. >> at last. >> no, i have never been invited to a garden party, though. every time i go to naignash vim

j nashville, jon meacham inivites me to the waffle house. we are lucky to have karine jean-pierre with us, the senior adviser at movon.org, and also with us, columnist and political analyst, jonathan alter. we have discussed the state of the evangelical church, the state of republican politics. david ignatius' ache desire to be invited to a gaernd parrden he can see the queen from afar. now let's talk about this. what a fascinating year. i know everybody's distracted by donald trump. i know mika brzezinski akept --

whether you going to become a democrat when i ways republican. and then i saw the first democratic debate and i said that's why i will never be a democrat. >> never say never, joe. >> exactly, never say never, because that was a lot of democratic candidates making the mistake of believing that twitter was the center of democratic politics. we have seen over the past six months, i think, just for me, being fascinated and loving american politics as i do, one of the fascinating stories is what's quietly happened where working-class americans, white and black, have said, wait a second, i don't watch cable news every night. i'm not on twitter. i am the democratic party. i'm going to tell you where our party's going to go, you're not going to tell me. and some fascinating things have happened over the past few months, haven't they, jonathan?

>> absolutely. and, you know, the democratic party is not really riven by this great strife. i think sometimes republicans want to make it seem as if this is 1968 where you have, you know, antiwar g. mccarthy people against hubert humphrey and lyndon johnson. really it's just been temporarily in the possession or part of the party has been temporarily in the possession in custody of what you might call the woke police. these folks on twitter who are trying to enforce a particular kind of progressivism. joe biden considers himself, rightly, to be a progressive, to be in that great progressive tradition. but there is kind of a fringe element that applies loyalty test, purity test as pete buttigieg called them, that got

the party off on to the wrong footing earlier this year. and i think a lot of democrats, the balance of power in the democratic party was very, very upset about that because the stakes are so high. and we can't experiment this time with who the democratic nominee have we have to have somebody who can win. so nowadays everybody's a pun dit, jo pundit and millions of pundits who also call themselves democrats go we've got to get somebody who's a little bit more moderate who can make sure to beat donald trump. >> especially sips we'nce we've narrowed it down to a handful of states and the industrial midwest. >> that's right. >> it's certain candidates fit those states, whether it's wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, ohio, better than others. and, of course, florida is fascinating. and you're right, jonathan, you know, the famous quote that

nothing focuses the mind like a hanging at dawn, that could a p apply here where nothing focuses democrats more than donald trump. this is going to be unified coming ow of t coming out of the party. >> i agree with you 100%. at the end of the day the voters are going decide who the nominee is going to be. we're not going to decide that. each candidate has to go out there and make their case. that's just the fact there. but i agree what's going to happen after the democratic convention from the is going to be unification in the is why, i say that as just look at what has happened the last three years, the electoral process, how democrats have come out, how democrats have done things that have been impossible winning in very, very red -- in very red districts and red states. but i have to tell you too, joe,

there's a vulnerable community out there that people are just afraid. they're fearful of another four years of donald trump. i think that's why you've been seeing these types of unusual wins. i think that's why you've been seeing this type of energy. because they know what -- what could possibly happen if donald trump gets re-elected. hence, to your point about there will be unification after whoever's the nominee. i think people will get behind that person. but, but, whoever the nominee is has to continue to do this work to get people out in november next year. >> and if you are a democrat and you are fearful or a republican and you're fearful about the future, register to vote. >> yeah. >> make sure your neighbors are registered. knock on doors. start asking around right now about phone banks, start asking around about how you can help local organizations get out the vote. because democrats lost in 2016,

not because donald trump' strength. they lost in 2016 because the vote was down. let's go to mar-a-lago right now. nbc news chief white house correspondent hallie jackson's with us. hallie, the president tweeting -- you know, we all have our christmas traditions, we all have our holiday traditions. >> reporter: sure. >> my family growing up would watch it's a wonderful life every night. my dad at christmas eve, yeah, after we got back from church my dad would make russian tea, it smelled really good. i always refused to drink it. but, we had our traditions. donald trump's tradition apparently is tweeting ugly things about nancy pelosi on christmas night. it's not been a time of joy and cheer at mar-a-lago. >> reporter: it certainly broke when you could call the peace of the twitter -- the twitter sphere last night. you brink russian tea, president trump tweets about democrats

being hypocrites, that is how he was spending at least his christmas evening. was pretty late, about 10:00 last night when the president decided to blast out some of those tweets. he's upset because as you know the house speaker has been insisting that the senate trial, any senate trial be conducted fairly. that has been something that both she and senator chuck schumer have been talking about and been very clear on. and folks in and around the white house believe that is not something that pelosi has the right to demand, essentially. you heard that that reflected from senator mitch mcconnell also. what's interesting this morning, senator lisa murkowski, somebody who is seen as open to maybe voting with democrats in some of the impeachment process, she's saying she's actually disturbed by what chef has heard from leader mitch mcconnell, specifically his comments last week to fox news that he is working in total coordination with the president's defense team. mur kows says thki says that co this impeachment process. she hasn't happy with it.

this is a small but possibly significant crack in that wall of support for republicans. because, murkowski could be one of four votes the democrats would need to get some of these procedural motions through, for example, whether to call witnesses. but people are looking at this saying maybe president trump will be convicted removed from office. it's not clear that she would break from her party on that front. she said she hasn't even decided which way she's going to go at this point. and democrats would need 19 other republican senators to also break ranks with their party and vote to convict the president. and that just seems extremely unlikely at that point. >> extremely unlikely. all right, hallie, thank you so much. greatly appreciate that report. and, jonathan, back to you. so here we are, let's keep talking about the democrats.

here we are about a month away from iowa. talk about the state of the race right now and the candidates, what's it look like to you? >> well, you know, i've covered these things back to 1984, i don't want to date myself too much, and i don't think i've ever seen an approach to the iowa caulk kucuses that was as unsettled as this one. that can change in a hurry and we've seen many examples of candidates making great comebacks, like john kerry say in 2004 in the three weeks before the iowa caucuses. so you could see a situation where joe biden, because he's not sitting in the senate, you know, listening to the trial, he's actually out campaigning, it helps a lot to be on the ground. where he makes a kind of a comeback in iowa and the thing gets boring really fast and the party unifies behind biden. but you could also see a situation where you have a

really unsettled race where, say, pete buttigieg wins iowa, he's in the lead right there now in the polls. then you have maybe elizabeth warren winning in new hampshire, brn bernie sanders winning nevada and joe biden south carolina. then you go into the super tuesday with a muddle. then if you come out of that -- >> all right, we lost jonathan there. and there is that muddle. david ignatius, i wonder whether he's sitting at 4% or whether he's sitting at 7%, michael bloomberg is doing much better than people have been campaigning from the very start of this, you know, for over a year now. how do you see bloomberg playing out? >> joe, i think he's getting some mind share, if you will, among democratic primary voters.

i still don't see a path for him to win the nomination. and i -- i think the biggest fact for me in the last two, three weeks has been the steadying of joe biden. when bloomberg came in seeking that moderate senator position, it was a sign of concern that biden was fading fast. one reason i don't focus so much on bloomberg now is that biden has steadied. he had a good last debate. the poll numbers for him are up. he seems more confident just in his personal affect. and he still looks like the person who -- that's most easy to predict would beat donald trump in a general election. i think that's just kind of adding to the luster around him, if you will. but we'll see. as you said earlier, somebody could come out of iowa, you

know, look strong and in politics nothing succeeds like success. the person that wins iowa is going to have a special, you know, persson ab ona of the wine person who is suddenly objen th landscape, buttigieg or somebody else, it will be a different race after that. i think the point that everybody's been making in this conversation, the party will end up united is powerfully true. who knows what president trump will be doing over those months, the ways in which democrats will feel he is attacking, slating, denigrating what they believe in. so i think the party's almost inevitably going to come together. hopefully there will be some powerful vote getters, people like stacey abrams who may be a part of the ticket who can really pull democratic voters and get -- turnout is going to be critical in the 2020 race.

but for now, fact one on my list would be biden's doing better than i thought a month ago he would be doing. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," president trump insists everything was perfect, of course, regarding his actions on ukraine. so why was his own administration worried that the halt of defense aid broke the law? a new look at those recently released documents from the justice department coming up next on "morning joe." coming p next on "morning joe." listening and observing are critical skills for scientists at 3m. one of the products i helped develop was a softer, more secure diaper closure. as a mom, i knew it had to work. there were babies involved... and they weren't saying much. i envisioned what it's like for babies to have diapers around them. that's what we do at 3m, we listen to people,

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good morning. welcome back to "morning joe." a shot at the capitol on december 26th. i hope you had a good christmas

yesterday and if you were working yesterday, we all thank you for that and hope that people that came in were polite and joyful in the holiday season. jonathan alter, i'm curious, i want to talk about elizabeth warren because as i talk about the things that have fascinated me about this democratic campaign, one thing is the fact that elizabeth warren ran what we have been saying since, you know, she made the mistake really early on going out to oklahoma and doing an ancestry.com thing or whatever that was, that was bad. but after that, she, man, you talk about doing the blocking and the tackling right, she did everything right in her campaign. i remember watching that line, that hour long or two-hour long line of selfies and i said to myself, there is a natural politician. and most importantly, she's doing that because she loves it.

>> yeah. >> and her arc was forever upward. and then she actually put a price tag on her medicare for all plan and she's been dropping in just about every poll ever since. can you try to explain to us from you will, what do you think as somebody that's followed this so closely, the democratic party, so closely since the time they were called the san francisco democrats in '84, you're talk about starting your work in '84, but what's happened with democratic support for elizabeth warren since her medicare for all plan was unveiled? >> well, i think the problem with her campaign is not her candidate skills, as you said. she's a happy warrior and she became a very, very effective communicator.

the problem with medicare for all is not the cost politically, because people don't really pay that much attention to dollars. some do. but, to me, the issue is choice. americans love choice. whether you're at the supermarket or, you know, getting your health care, you don't want anybody, the government or anybody else, to tell you that you can't have chaise choi choice. and medicare for all sold better than single payer because it had a more attractive name. but that became its own problem because democrats started with kamala harris endorsed bernie sanders plan and that put them in a box that was very hard for them to get out of. now elizabeth warren is starting to retreat some from that medicare for all hard line position. she says she's going to phase it in and let people have a private option for the first few years. and we'll see whether she's

skillful enough politically to excute this retreat. but she's been worried too much, her basic problem is she's been worried too much about the left, about the sanders vote and getting wrong with the left of the party and not enough about moving out into that main highway of the democratic party. and, you know, time is running out for her. but i would not count her out and i also would caution democrats and others who think that she can't beat trump. i think she would beat trump quite easily were she to get the nomination. but she's got a ways to go to convince people that she's going to let them have what they want, this which is, as buttigieg says, medicare for all who want it. that's the position that the vast majority of democrats embrace. >> karine, would you agree that? >> so i would say definitely do not count her out. i think, yes, one of the things that has gotten people excited about her campaign has been the

big plans, right? she has a plan for everything. she has a plan for this, for that, and it's been very progressive and it's helped her. it's carried her throughout of the way that it was start with the dna test, as you mention clrd wamentioned, which was a disaster. but, i have to tell you right now the race is very fluid are es sflis especially if you look at iowa. it is going to be about momentum. when you think about elizabeth warren, when you think about bernie sanders whether you think about those two in particular their operation on the ground is like no other. it's big, it's massive. that is what is mattering right now. what voters are seeing on the ground, who they're hearing from. are they connecting to foeklks the ground. this is why i say i wouldn't count her out. it's very fluid we .

we are in a holiday season. people aren't going to be paying attention until january again. this is going to be a wild, wild ride and it's not ever. we're just at the beginning. >> thank you so much, jonathan, it was great having you on this morning. let's bring in national correspondent and msnbc contributor natasha bertrand. and jeffrey smith, his reporting trump administration officials worried ukraine aid halt violated spending bill. revealed the details conversations with key pentagon -- or key officials at the pentagon and the office of management and budget in regards to ukraine aid. and it seems, jeffrey, that they were concerned in realtime that donald trump was drabreaking th law. tell us about it. >> well, that's true, they were.

and there's a law that dates from the nixon era. it was passed to stop president nixon from impounding money, which means that congress gave him money to spend -- congress appropriated funds and nixon didn't want to spend them. and it says that if congress appropriates funds, they have to be spent or there are only a few conditions under which they don't have to be spent. one of them is that if there are -- there's some kind of way to achieve savings from efficiencies, cost efficiencies. another is if there's a particular law that conflicts with the spending. and a third is if there's some unusual contingency. none of these factors were present at the time that president trump singularly ordered the aid to be halted. and so everybody worried immediately, everybody at omb

and the defense department knows about the existence of this law, it's well known in, you know, among people who disperse money from the government and everybody knew about it and they were all worried right from the beginning that this order was a violation of the law. now the administration said that there was -- tlep wehey were st a policy process and they claimed that was the reason for holding up the funds. but there was no policy process. the only policy meetings that were being held were to basically to get aid back on track. >> david ignatius. >> let me ask a question of natasha. natasha, we're in a period now where we're kind of looking again over the evidence that's accumulated over these months of investigation. one issue that fascinates me is whether the russians have deliberately planted the idea that donald trump and many

conservatives have taken up that ukraine is really the architect of the election interference. ukraine is hiding the servers, go down the list. you know the whole rubric. is it possible, do you think, that there will be evidence that makes clear that trump and other republicans got caught in what amounts to a russian deception campaign? >> i think it's very possible. and that is because the russians have been pushing this as early as -- began pushing this as early as december 2016, if not earlier. russian's foreign ministry came out and said in a statement that it was ukraine that was interfering in the election and not russia. so this has been going on for the better part of three years now, this disinformation campaign, to the point where intelligence officials actually had to brief the senate on the fact that this was a russian operation trying to inject this narrative into the mainstream. so this really does seem to

amount to the president and his allies getting duped by the russians all over again. the fact that rudy giuliani keeps meeting in ukraine with russian-connected officials that are pushing this theory with ukrainian -- with soviet-born businessmen who are trying to get the ambassador removed, that are pushing this narrative that russia was innocent, that it was actually the server was in ukraine, et cetera, this all seems to have a russian hand behind it. and i think there's a lot more we have yet to discover about the extent of the reach and the breadth of the russian operation here. wind not be surprised at all if it matched or even went beyond what we saw in 2016. >> jon meacham. >> jeffrey, quick question. thinking just back over the last 30 or 40 years, in your estimation, where does the documentary record rank at this

point compared to, say, iran contra moving forward? is the stonewalling working in your view? >> whether it's work organize not is something we'll discover in january when we see the outcome of the dispute between the house and the senate. but certainly the administration is trying to stonewall. the house report done by the house impeachment committee noted that no documents, not a single document had been provided by the office of management and budget and the defense department to the congress. we got these documents because we applied for them under the freedom of information act and we got a judge who gave us a sympathetic hearing. she basically said in her decision, i should say the administration said they wanted to put our request at the end of a queue that would produce results in about a year. so they wanted to hold up just handing over any of these documents for about a year.

and the judge said, stale information is not useful to the public, it's not useful to the impeachment proceeding, these documents need to be produced on an accelerated timetable and then were. but the government has been resisting that. and when we got the documents, they were -- they were really heavily redacted. we only were able to pick up a few bits of new information from them. most of the key conversations that took place between the lawyers at the pentagon, the lawyers at the office of management and budget about the legality of what trump had order, those were blacked out. what mark esper, the secretary of defense said about the propriety of what was being done, the legality of what was being done, blacked out. what the line officials responsible for controlling the disbursement of funds stowed one another about either the rational for the halt or the legality of the halt blacked

out. >> so there's been -- >> there's been very little transparency. and the government can, you know, they can choose to make this public, but they've chosen not to. and we are fighting it in court. we're not done with our -- with our legal proceedings. but we may not get a decision from the judge, a final decision until march. that was the quickest that we could make this happen. >> yeah. natasha, this -- it seems to me that this scandal has created a new reality in american politics, and that is that suddenly the office of management and budget seems like a very exciting, germane place to be. omb, of course, has always been in the back water of the bureaucratic layout of the city. but here i can hardly think of, other than john bolton, perhaps, i can hardly think more important people to testify in

the senate -- in the senate trial than those workers in omb, some of whom could quit because they were shocked bha was happening. but those workers in omb who actually were responsible for holding up almost 4-million dollars $400 million in defensive ed because he was trying to dig up dirt on joe biden. >> the resignation of two of those officials is a key moment that's gone under the radar here. but they left because they were so disgust and so appalled, according to testimony, by what they were seeing just kind of playing with these funds as part of a political matter. and, you know, i think this is why mick mulvaney, the chief of staff to the president, the former head of omb is so necessary in these -- in the senate trial. and that's what chuck schumer, of course, has been pushing for. whether or not that happens, of course, remains to the seen and it's very unlikely.

but he was present for a lot, if not all of these conversations. he still has one foot in the door at omb. he has a lot of visibility in this issue. so he is a very, is he important witness here. and these new documents that were obtained by the senate for public integrity really blow up the president's chief argument here, the one that's been pushed by his allies as well that he was doing all of this to fight corruption. he learned about the hold on -- he learned about the fact that the united states was providing this military aid from "washington examiner" article, not because he was concerned in monitoring corruption. and he did not want -- the administration doid not want ths hold to get out. this was supposed to be a closely held secrets about the if this was about fighting corruption, why wouldn't they want the entire administration to know? why wouldn't they speak about it publicly? important testimony in these documents and john bolton and mick mulvaney would be clear witnesses but it's clear that

mitch mcconnell is not going arou th allow that to happen. >> which is what makes lisa murkowski's interview so interesting. we'll see what happens. natasha, thank you so much for being with us. national security editor for the center of public integrity, jeffrey smith, thank you as well. coming up, a journalist caught the middle of the ukraine scandal is named misinformer of the year by media matters. we'll explain next. of the year by media matters. we'll explain next.

in these depositions and hearings, republicans have cited numerous end occasions of hue crane meddling in the 2016 elections to oppose the trump campaign. many of these were reported including the posting of documents by john salmon. since the democrats switched from russia to ukraine for their impeachment crusade, solomon's reporting on burisma, hunter biden and ukraine election meddling has become inconvenient for the democratic narrative and so the media is furiously smearing and libelling solomon.

>> you probably heard his name coming from ranking member devin nunes. his piece served as fodder for the likes of nunes and rudy giuliani in their defense of donald trump. but in this age of trump, one man's source is another's conspiracy theorist. and media matters this morning has named solomon their misinformer of the year. let's bring in the president and ceo of media matters for america, angelo. and, karine is with us and has the first question. karine. >> hey,ing an know. >> angelo. >> good morning. >> could you tell us about who john solomon is and why did he get in wonderful honor this year by you guys? >> so john sol someone someboom

that used to work in the media many, many years ago and then got a job at sinclair broadcasting. since then, even at the time when he was a reporter of the mainstream media he was dinged for stories that had to be debunked or had to have fact checks. but is he the single proximate cause for why donald trump got impeached. he was the person that laundered the russian deception campaign with sort of right-wing conspiracy theories that openly sort of made their way into trump's mid and and led him int the trump's investigation with ukraine. that's the big reason why we named his him mins forms misinfe year. it's not because he pushed these attacks, but he landers a

combination russian deseptions ignatius. i, like you, read solomon with fascination. he seems to be generating as much of the controversy as the principles, but there's one area where solomon might argue that he got it right. i just want to ask you about that. now that we have the inspector general, michael horowitz's report on the process that led to the fisa warrant against carter page and other aspects of the early investigation, solomon and company argued, well, their critics got that wrong, that there were more abuses by the fbi than people were aware of. i want to ask you what you make of that. you look at the news carefully. do you think that criticism is right, that maybe we

overstated -- underestimated the zb degree to which the fbi was manipulating the information? >> i would say there's almost total consensus there this and it is an instance where solomon was piling on where it wasn't originating with solomon. that's an important distinction to draw here. he has published 45 articles with "the hill" and he works with "fox news". a lot of the reporting lines up directly with the result of the investigation rudy giuliani ultimately sent to the state department. i separate out the stuff that solomon did over the years, especially in the last few years that sort of defended trump but were aligned with legitimate critiques, especially around fisa. but then there's a separate bucket, the core of his work, which is him laundering regurgitated russian disinformation into the right wing ecosystem to not just get

it into trump's mind, giuliani was giving him disinformation he ultimately had gotten from russia. solomon was writing it up. it was amplified by "fox news" and the rest of the right wing media and in some instances amplified by right wing disinformation networks like we saw during the investigation. solomon would circulate it and that's what he is known for in terms of his use and role in this. you're right about that. there are things he piled on and reinforced that are valid. >> angelo, you say "the hill" is investigating his work? >> yes. he no longer works for "the hill." he was with them until october, and now he's with "fox news". they are investigating his work during this time period because, you know, when you publish 45 articles and they line up with the disinformation, especially

as we heard during the committee hearings, they need to dig into how they were part of a larger deception and disinformation operation. >> all right. thank you so much. >> thaufrpgs. >> president and ceo for media matters for american. i greatly appreciate it. coming up, notre dame missed its first christmas mass since the revolution. it is said it may never recover from the devastating fire. we will have that next. devasta. we will have that next i'm your 70lb st. bernard puppy,

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there are new concerns in france about saving the notre dame cathedral after a devastating fire earlier this year. the rector of notre dame told the associated press that the paris landmark as of today is, quote, not out of danger. he warned that there's a 50% chance that the church may not be saved after the fire

destroyed its roof and iconic spire. yesterday marked the first time in more than 200 years that a christmas service was not held at notre dame. french president emmanuel macron vowed to open the cathedral by 2024 in time for paris to host the olympics. however, restoration work is not likely to begin until 2021 due to efforts to rescue the cathedral's struck turn. john meachem, this past year it was a sickening day watching notre dame go up in flames. this more bad news, that the center, what many believed to be, what i believed to be really the centers of western civilization may still not be -- well, it may still not be able to be saved.

>> yes, it may not be salvageable. i don't know much about this restoration work, but surely, surely we have the technology or the wherewithal to do this. i know there was an enormous outpouring of support, financial support for saving it. it is an emblem of enduring if imperfect effect order, and i think we can do to keep that,. n in a way it is an institution that reminds us of certain truths even if we don't live up to them, so let's pray it can be saved. >> let us hope and let us pray. i agree with you, it is hard to believe in the 21st century it cannot be saved. still ahead, president trump spent the christmas holiday railing against impeachment

while a key republican senator mish mcconnell's coordination with the white house over the trial disturbing. we're back in one minute. even if you're sensitive. delicious. now, i've heard people say lactaid isn't real milk. ok, well, if it isn't real then, i guess those things over there can't actually be cows. must be some kind of really big dogs, then. sit! bad dog.

we have dirty cops. we had people spying on my campaign. they did certainly things, the likes of which have never been done in the history of our country. it is very sad. all right. have a good time, everybody. merry christmas. >> hey, merry christmas, y'all. that's a good, happy christmas eve greeting from the president of the united states. that was president trump railing against dirty cops and fake news before wishing you and yours a merry christmas. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, december 26th. it is great to have you here. i hope you had a great christmas. with us we have chief national correspondent for "new york times" magazine mark liebovitch. president of the vanderbilt

university, john meachem an nbc news and msnbc contributor. karinne will be with us in a moment as will david ignatius. mark liebovitch, i couldn't help think of you over the season as word broke a man was using prison labor to get out his man of the people campaign, mike bloomberg. news broke several days ago. >> it does bring that to mind. >> well, just your wry wit. >> i'm happy to do it. >> yeah, it has to be coming up there. >> sure. >> but, yes, it is straight out of a charles dickens' novel, isn't it? >> yes, it was a great -- wow, this happened, i guess, the abefore christmas. who broke the story? was it "the intercept" i think that mike bloomberg or his

campaign or some contractor affiliated for the campaign was enlisting prison labor to make some kind of phone call related to the campaign and the campaign quickly was publicly horrified and they discontinued the relationship. it is the kind of story you love to see before christmas. it didn't blow up the campaign. the campaign is still alive and kicking and here we are. >> again, it is -- i mean in 2019 it is hard to blow up a campaign in the age of trump. >> exactly. >> no matter what you do. >> absolutely. >> john meachem, of course you being the episcopalian wasp that you are, i understand you only use methodists to do work around your house. so something you understand. so ba -- >> dissenters we call them.

>> reporter: yeah, yeah. talk if you will. throughout the week in this "christianity today" editorial got good pickup, a lot of people talking about it. ""the atlantic" had a story about leif anderson with one of the largest evangelical groups in the country and he talked about the evangelical silent majority. this is -- this evangelical leader is a strange, strange man. he is an outlier. he is actually like the preachers that i grew up with who actually would rather talk about jesus than politics. that's whether you're for trump or whether you're against trump. i mean there was a time in america where pastors were concerned primarily with the faith of their flock and spreading the word to others and did not get as

ensnarled in politics as, of course, they have over the past 30 years. there are some who say, hey, listen, my job is not to talk about politics. i have the greatest message ever given to any ma'am, woman or child. i'm going to spread that message. it harkens back to the premoral majority days, doesn't it? >> it does, as everything is. it is- martin looegt luthuther king wat minister. there has been a tradition of people motivated by religious conviction shaping the life of the nation in immensely positive

and ethical ways. so there is that. you know, in terms of the last 30, 40 years, you know, and i would date it from either 1962 and the school prayer decision. i used to go to political rallies. i was covering politics in north georgia. actually, it turns out it is now doug collins' district. you probably saw this in pensacola. there would be people with homemade signs there listing social indicators, divorce, abortion, murder, all from -- not from 1973 from rowe, but from 1962 from engel versus vitaly. where they believed if you took god out of the classroom that america was set on a seemingly irreversible path toward decline. jerry falwell sr. is interesting on this.

he admits that, to use your phrase, he was about saving souls, not winning votes until the morning he read about the rowe decision in january 1973 and that transformed what he was about. you know, cal thomas saw this coming, the columnist. he co-authored a book 30 years ago or so-called "blinded by the might." "blinded by the might," where he worried that the religious right would replace the pursuit of virtue and sal ration and spreading the gospel message which is the central injunction of the new testament, with political power. that's what has happened. a lot of folks who profess this faith have become pursuers of power, not pursuers of the religious message. >> well, it is remarkable that the reduction of christianity, i wrote about it in "the

washington post", the reduction of christianity in recent years has been reduced to the collection of federal judgeships. it really has. i mean if you hold a position different on abortion or on the family and what constitutes the family, nothing else matters, which is giving donald trump free rein to do whatever he has wanted to do. if you say as so many on the political christian right say, "i don't care what you do, just get me federal judges who agree with me on one issue," then you have just signed a blank check for donald trump to run around doing everything donald trump says for saying article two gives me unlimited power. i can do whatever i want to do. i can hug vladimir putin. i can turn over the middle east to him.

i can make a fool of now. i can attack federal judges. i can attack the press, and i can behave always if article two does give the president of the united states unlimited power. i can do grain madisonian checks and balances that the conservatives went around talking about, talking about the importance of the checks and balances to stop the executive branch from becoming too powerful. if you say, i only care about the collection of federal judges as not only a lot of republicans have done but also a lot of so-called religious leaders, so-called leaders of the evangelical faith. and it is so-called because they're not religious leaders, they're politicians. cal thomas is right, this is not about faith but powering.

on david ignatius, recent op-ed for "the washington post", you wrote this about how americans can break our bitter impasse. you write in part, "it's cheering this christmas week to repoet the bromid, love thy neighbor. the truth is many of us seem to hate our neighbors. we don't understand how people can oppose the values we cherish most. their behavior is infuriating and often seems unffblaborgivea. if we're lucky we not only escape but put them aside, what a nice thought, putting grievance aside. does it work in politics when each side's narrative becomes enflamed and reinforced by media commentators and is reconciliation possible or desirable when fundamental

matters of principal seem to be at talk. that's part of what makes politics so potent and dangerous. it is not the art of the deal it turns out, but a fight to the death. thankfully even amid our current difficulties americ difficulties america doesn't feel like a country headed toward a second world war. turn off the television. amen. go to a ball game. listen to some music and the din from washington 5/8. thfades. if you like the state of our politics, and most americans want a way out. david, truer words never written. certainly when it comes to american politics, mika and i probably through the years have

given hundreds and hundreds of talks at colleges, rotary clubs, book events. wherever we go we say the same thing. whether it is alabama or the upper west side, whether it is 92nd street y or, you know, someplace in iowa, in middle america, people are so tired of the infighting. it is not me being pollyanna-ish. that's my political antenna going up. if you have a powerful personality and you're not looking for the mushy metal, you want, like, reagan, like lbj, like fdr, you are strong enough to bring people together and sort of force a political peace upon them. they want that sort of leader that's going to bring america

together again. >> joe, i found myself in this christmas week trying to think differently about politics. as i wrote in this column, i have written dozens this year about our political impasse, the dark days that lie ahead for america, that we talk about most mornings, and tried to think is there a different way to look at these issues. obviously if you are a christian, your faith tells you that you need to begin with the sermon on the mount, those words that are so hard to accept really they're so radical. like you ought to not just, you know, love your friends, you ought to love your enemies, too. you ought to reach out to the people who you think have wronged you and try somehow to break the impasse with them. so i got to thinking about that in our personal lives. i think every one of us knows there's a truth to that.

we get in terrible confrontations with our friends, our relatives, our marital partners, and the only way out of them is to reset and escape that corner into which we backed ourselves. i have been wondering, is there a similar thing that can happen in politics with people who are so angry with each other, each convinced they're right. obviously i wouldn't pretend i came up with an answer. i did try to think this through. what you quoted at the end, i think the person who says, i can reach out and work with others, i want to love my neighbor in effect. i want to be the candidate who can do that, has a powerful message this year, more than usual. i don't know, is joe biden that person? i don't know. but i think it is a message that the public really wants to hear. >> still ahead, you don't often hear christmas messages laced with accusations of hates, but

that's how the president offered up his holiday greetings. we will run through those next on "morning joe." ♪ on "morning joe. ♪ you have a brother in the second battalion? yes sir. they're walking into a trap. your orders are to deliver a message calling off tomorrow morning's attack. [ dramatic music ] why in god's name did you have to choose me? if you don't get there in time. it will be a massacre. we will lose sixteen hundred men.

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sflo ♪ >> she hates the republican party. she hates all of the people that voted for me and the republican party. she is doing a tremendous disservice to the country. she is not doing a good job, and some people think she doesn't know what she is doing. >> that was the president on christmas eve morning shortly after he participated in a video conference where he exchanged holiday greetings with members of the military stationed around the globe. now, the president's anger towards speaker pelosi continued into christmas night where he questioned whether the house even in the authority to impeach him. the president tweeted last night in part, quote, why should crazy

nancy pelosi -- again, on christmas -- just because she has a slight majority in the house be allowed to impeach the president of the united states? perhaps the president should do something that he has never done before and read the constitution of the united states. he might actually understand how the speaker of the house has that power, of either party. meanwhile, one key republican senator lisa murkowski of alaska says she is, quote, disturbed by mitch mcconnell's quote to be in total coordination with the white house on the impeachment trial. >> in fairness, when i heard that i was disturbed. if we are tasked as the full senate to do impartial justice under the constitution and the law -- that's the oath that we will swear to up hold at the commencement of this proceeding -- then to me it

means that we have to take that step back from being hand-in-glove with the defense. so i heard waleedhat leader mccl had said. i happen to think that that has further confused the process. >> murkowski's remarks are significant because a 51-vote simple majority is all that's needed to set the impeachment rules. republicans only have 53 votes. democrats would need four republicans to break ranks and actually call for witnesses, call for evidence, call for the very things -- depositions, for instance -- that republicans called for and got in 1999 with the impeachment of bill clinton. none have said they would do so, but senator murkowski's remarks

are the first signs of any dissension in the gop. only a few republicans are needed to stop mitch mcconnell from running a moscow-style show trial where no evidence, no nothing, where you actually had the person who is the judge and the jury saying i'm not going to be fair. i'm not interested in being fair. we're going to work with the defendant to make sure it is a show tries, to make sure it is a scam proceeding. you have murkowski, susan collins, cory gardner, maybe martha mcsally, tom tillis, a lot of people in the fight of their political life next fall. they need four. do you think they can get there? >> i do think they can get there. i think senator murkowski's remarks were very significant because i think this argument

will be had very much in the center. lisa murkowski, susan collins, possibly mitt romney, these are centrists in the republican party. these will be looked at and the remarks such as murkowski made yesterday will be scrutinized not just as a signal of what one senator might do, but whether there's a block in the middle of all of this that could prove decisive if there's an impasse over witnesses. look, murkowski and collins in particular are two very independent senators. they like to fashion themselves that way. murkowski herself was elected as an independent in election and they reacted well in the last election. susan collins is also up for election in 2020. those two in particular, but mitt romney has also shown a willingness to be quite independent over this, at least

in his public remarks. i think, again, that these senators say in the next few weeks will be scrutinized beyond what a normal senator would be because we will be seeing this as an indicator of where the center of the senate in so much as there is some is going to be. >> coming up, more on the politics of impeachment, including what it means for mitt romney, next on "morning joe." ( ♪ ) only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. tylenol®.

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♪ let's bring in former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. she has a piece for "time magazine" entitled "trump may be acquitted in a senate impeachment trial. that's not the same as being exonerated." you know, joyce, i said it is so shocking and i sort of want to stop myself because had the age of trump really, at this point what is shocking? well, let me tell you what is shocking. when you not only have the senate majority leader saying, i'm not going to be fair. i'm not going to be impartial. this is going to be like a

russian show trial. this is going to be -- you know, it is going to be fixed before it even begins, which is what he said, and then you have the chairman of the senate judiciary committee -- i mean that's a position growing up i think we all looked upon with remembvern whether a democrat or republican was running it. it is such an important committee. yet lindsey graham has said i'm not going to be fair, we're going to run a show trial, we're getting it done as quickly as possible. this is a guy that said i don't want to read anything, i don't want to know any information, and that's where we are. i'm not so sure, joyce, that doesn't even backfire in south

carolina on lindsey graham, who may actually have a more difficult battle in the general election than he thinks. i certainly know it can't help cory gardner. it can't help tom tillis. it can't help size ausan thomas. it can't help martha mcsally. what does mitt romney have to lose? does he want to be a guy remembered as being a guy that voted with mitch mcconnell to help have a scam trial in the senate? i think not. >> you know, i think you are absolutely right about this, joe. there's a political price to be paid for treating an impeachment trial in such a cavalier fashion. none of the conduct you are talking about would be tolerated in the criminal justice system. people would ask for judge and jurors to be prosecuted if there was that sort of complicity. we understand an impeachment trial is different.

it is a hybrid that has both aspects of the criminal justice system but a political aspect. the senators sit as jurors who judge what facts the evidence proves, but they also get to make the rules, taking on part of the job that we typically assigned to a judge in a criminal trial. but with that said, the american people are pretty sofs dated about using trials as a truth telling, sort of an exercise. they will expect something here that looks like what they've come to expect in the criminal system. i think if witnesses close to the president are suppressed, if we never hear their testimony, the process won't be perceived as a fair one. ultimately voters may put a price tag on this and may impose pain on some of the senators in vulnerable states come the election in 2020. coming up, what would it take for evangelicals to turn on

president trump. our next guest tackles that question for "the new yorker" and that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ ♪music (children laugh and scream) (dog barking) ♪music it's the final days of the wish list sales event.

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have you ever asked god for forgiveness? >> that's a tough question. i don't think in terms -- i have -- i am a religious person. shockingly, because people are so shocked when they find this out. i am protestant. i am presbyterian and i go to church and i love god and i love my church. >> have you ever asked god for forgiveness? >> i'm not sure i have. i just go and try to do a better job from there. i don't think so. i think i -- if i do something wrong i think i just try to make it right. i don't bring god into that picture. i don't. >> don't, don't bring god into the picture of forgiveness. that wasn't the only time

actually that donald trump said that he didn't ask god for forgiveness, didn't need to ask god for forgiveness. that was, of course, donald trump during the 2016 campaign on his faith and the notion of forgiveness. now, a split of sorts emerged among ee advantage cals after a publication of "christianity today" called for donald trump to be removed from the presidency. william barber is repairers of the breach and co-chair of the poor people's campaign, a national call for moral revival. also editor of "the new yorker.com" michael luo, out with a piece entitled "what it would take for evangelicals to turn on president trump." david ignatius and karine jean-pierre are with us still as well. let's talk about your piece, michael. 80% of white evangelicals voted for donald trump in 2016.

i don't know that i expect many of them to turn on donald trump any time soon. it is fascinating though that the -- really sort of the center of christianity is asking god, asking jesus for forgiveness and donald trump has said time and again he just doesn't need to do it. >> yes, it is a big mystery obviously. it is something i have thought about a long time. you know, something who goes to church myself, somebody that followed politics for a long time, trying to understand why evangelicals came out in such large numbers for trump, white evangelicals. the big thing i found and i write in my column it is less about religion but the culture around religion, which i think is an important distinction. a lot of interesting social science research has been coming out looking at what drove the white evangelical vote and it is not about economics or ideology.

it is actually this fusion of cultural beliefs, religion and culture that mixed together -- particularly actually around the sense that america is in decline and america was founded as a christian nation, and there's actually a lot of those kinds of cultural beliefs that are actually shared with trump. what makes white evangelicals vulnerable to a populous leader like donald trump, and it is both sort of depressing and it gives a little bit of hope. depressing in that it seems less tra transactional, more about certain shared cultural values around xenophobia, nativism, the sense of protection of what -- a sense of what they thought america used to be and what it should be.

>> you know, it is interesting, refu reverend barber that the "christian today" op-ed focuses on donald trump's personal moral failings which you point out are not impeachable. but i wonder whether looking from 30,000 feet whether it is not some of the politics that ter seem to be harsh in separating mothers fra babiom b at the southern border. regardless of where we san on immigration, it seems to me that it is the policy, the overall policies that seem unduly harsh on the poor, on all of those jesus talked about in matthew 25 that certainly seems to be more disturbing for certain religious leaders. >> well, it is, joe.

thank you so much. you know, that article is powerful and problematic. it is power full because it is colorsing us to have a conversation about morality in the public square. it is problematic because it focuses on his personal immorality and talks about his benefits politically. but the reality is when you look at trump and his allies of policy, they are fundamentally against jesus-based morality and a constitutional morality, whether that's refusing to give living wages to working poor but tax cuts to the greedy, locking up children and families in cages, spreading the lie about seater suppression is not real, trying to appoint racist judges. when you look at the bible, not just the republican talking point but isaiah 10, luke chapter 4, matthew 25, those are impeachable if you will in terms of a jesus-based constitutional morality.

the more we move in that direction, we are seeing some evangelicals who don't call themselves evangelicals because the term has been so messed up but they're breaking from 245 because it does not line up with a jesus-based morality and constitution-based morality. >> david ignatius. >> thank you. let me ask you a question i've been thinking about this week, which is the paradox in our christian faith of loving your enemies. i'm curious whether as you look at the evangelical world, conservative and liberals, see any new signs of a desire for reconciliation, any more than before? >> sadly, no. it is depressing to say. i have actually thought about some of the folks who actually talk about, richard mao, the former head of the fuller theological seminary, has

written over the years about civility, christian civility and that concept. there are others like him out there who talk about grace as a christian virtue and talk about how evangelicals could stand for that. the richard is people like richard mao, do you know who he is? these are really important actually theo logical leaders in the way you and i think of political followers in the sphere. that's what is going on in this division, what you are seeing with "christianity today." some folks called it a cosmopolitan versus populous evangelical divide and it is an apt description. joe, you have had sim kelltim k pastor here in new york, well-respect, historically

orthodox pastor. a lot of people read his books, but in the rest of american help doesn't have this. >> you talked about the personal versus the policies. we are in the middle of the holiday season. donald trump kicked off, took away food stamps from 700,000 people. >> exactly. >> you're right. the policy really hurts people to the core. you think about the historical contempt as well, of how powerful leaders used religion to stay in power. i guess my question to you is how do you break that? you talk about how it is a cultural dynamic and how much of that is the politics involved in that? how do you break that. how do you reach people?

>> well, first of all we have to understand that in christmas season it is a good time to talk about it because you juxtapose jesus with herod and cesar and jesus is counter to cesar who is about lying and oppression. secondly, we have to remember the great traditions we have forgotten. when evangelicals supported abolition of slavery, civil rights and the new deal and the peace movement, those movements are part of american life as well. thirdly, i would differ some with your guests. we are finding in the poor people's campaign a national call for revival, thousands of peopl people now. we are calling for a moral march on january 20th to washington, because thousands are coming together across race to say there are five issues we ought to be addressing religiously. systemic racism, systemic

poverty, 140 million people living in poverty and low wealth, the war on economy, and we must challenge the false moral narrative of nationalism that is masquerading as evangelicalism and it is not true evangelicalism from a biblical base. we have to be movements and we have to remember especially in the season we are in now that it is happening all over the country. thousands are gathering together and will be in washington on june 20, 2020. >> thank you, reverend barber. thank you so much. michael luo, go liverpool, michael, this afternoon i think against leicester. >> we are going to win the league. >> yes, we are. knock on wood. up next, "vanity fair" is out with a new project featuring some of the best profiles and columns over the last few years.

it is women on women. keep it here on "morning joe." any comments doug?

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welcome back we want to bring in editor and chief of "vanity fair" redeka jones. she has a new wook called women on women. a collection of the classic

profiles and essays on prominent women written by women from the past 35 years. joe joins me as well even though he is not a woman. >> there are so many fascinating names and interviews in here? do you have a personal favorite? was there one that really, really struck you that said boy, this is exactly why i want today do this project. >> first, i'm glad you're here joe. it is by women and about women but it is for everyone and i think there is so much it learn. it depends on the day, but i'm currently obsessed with the barbara bush profile. it is fascinating. it is a write around. she didn't participate in it but it is really deeply reported and it tells you a lot about the way that women of her generation

exercised power, you can call it soft power and how that ended up playing in george h.w. bush's exercising of his own power in the white house and the choices and compromises that she makes abo about her ambition. and it is a theme that runs through the house. >> you also have a profile of queen elizabeth who younger americans and brits have become a little more familiar with with "the crown" and we're now in season three, but what a remarkable life she has had from winston churchill to boris johnson. >> the people she sas seen, tha the people she has put up with.

but you raise a good point often through current cultural expressions, television shows like "the crown" we come to meet someone who is very active and alive in their world right now, and we see them finding their way. and i think for american audiences to see her and see her profile, it's exciting. it is a reminder especially for younger women today, and i'm very hopeful that younger women will find this book and find a lot to take from it. i think it is so interesting to see how women in decades throughout the 20th and now 21s century have covered their power. >> yeah, what was the concept behind putting together this book specifically focused on

women by women. >> i look the seat as you mentioned a a couple years ago, almost exactly two years ago. there was a lot going on in our politics and in our culture, but maybe most notably for me at that time it was was about two months into the reporting on harvey weinstein and the tumult in hollywood. i became fascinating taking the he healm of vanity fair, covering a magazine for decades that was run by tiny brown, one of our most iconic female editors. and it was becoming clear through me too reporting that a lot of actresses to take that very specific example their

permits, their degreesed that been determined by men. and you see that also in in politics. and there are a love of vanity fair, a magazine that was run in it's first modern incarnation by a modern female editor and has had a legacy of assigning pieces to strong women writers. wouldn't it be great to pick up the pieces and trace the portraits of women. it's not that they're not critic critical. >> the one that is fascinating for a reason.

for many years after the scan l scandal. you always treated her be great respect and the concern that it took the rest of the country 15 or 16 years to afford her as well. >> i was so proud to be able to do that. i met monica my first week on the job, and she has such a thoughtful and authentic vision of what is happening right now because she was there before. she endured so much and she is just incredibly generous in her experience. it is something that was very

widely read when we published it. and i think it will stand the test of time. >> the list of women, the women that wrote about them, some of the counter intuitive matchups, some of the them, julia child by laura jacobjacobs, tina turner, princess diana. it is really a testament to vanity fair recognizing the power of women and soft power can be incredibly impactful on leaders even of -- world leaders. >> it is really striking to me, yes, first of all the prosper of writers is incredible and i'm so

lucky that many of them are still working with the magazine. it is such a privilege to be able to do that. barbara bush, hillary clinton, it is in the spring of 92 before he became first lady, and michelle obama also during that first campaign and what is striking about it is that the women are the subjects of the pieces, but that their husbands become these players in history and they're not as important. it's a matter of flipping the script a little bit. and they are, in their own ways, expressing themselves in generationally different ways and of course not surprisingly

throughout the hillary clinton profile, everyone they meet as the whiriter is following her, is surprising that hillary is not the candidate. and it's not surprising from our vantage point, but in 1992, it is something they would say. so i love how all of these pieces change with the context that we spring to them here at the end of 2019. just having been through months and months of a democratic primary where we're seeing a lot of women on stage with a lot of different ideas no longer having to bear the brunt of being the one. >> thank you so much, that does it for us this morning. >> hello, everyone. it is thursday, december 26th.

for the first time daylight between a republican senator and the gop caucus. lisa murkowski criticizing mitch mcconnell saying he would coordinate with the white house. here he is talking to the news station ktuu. >> i will be asked to raise my hand and affirm that i will do impartial justice under the constitution and the law so help me god. i think it is my job, my responsibility, to do just that. so for me to prejudge and say "there is nothing there" or on the other happened, he should be impeached yesterday, that is wrong. in my view, that is wrong. >> now she went on to say she wants a full and fair process. she did not indicate