cream for everyone to take home. because everyone loves whipped cream. >> you get whipped cream, you get whipped cream. that's tomorrow 6:00 p.m. eastern. i hope you tune in. "hardball" with chris matthews is next. witnesses, let's play hardball. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. another republican senator is voicing concerns over majority leader mitch mcconnell is handling the pending impeachment trial of the president. senator susan collins of maine joins fellow republican senator lisa murkowski in offering a rebuke of mcconnell's recent statements. >> i've heard the senate majority leader saying that he's taking his cues from the white

house. there are senators on both sides of the aisle who, to me, are not giving the appearance of and the reality of judging this in an impartial way. i am open to witnesses. >> collins, though, said she does agree with mcconnell on at least one point, that it would be premature to decide which witnesses to call until senators see the evidence first. and with grsds preparing to return from their holiday break lingering questions remain about what a senate trial would look like. reports indicate there has been no progress breaking that stalemate over calling potential witnesses including some of the president's inner circle. today schumer seized on a new report to make the case for a robust trial.

the website just security, that's a blog associated with the nyu school of law says it has viewed unredacted copies of previously blacked out e-mails released earlier this month between the white house and pentagon over that hold on aid to ukraine. in one of those e-mails from michael duffy to a pentagon official points the finger directly at the president, according to an august 30th e-mail duffy writes this, quote, clear direction from potus to continue to hold. that e-mail was sent following a meeting the president was said to have had with defense secretary mark esper and secretary of state mike pompeo. nbc news has not viewed the e-mails and cannot verify their authenticity. just hours after the release of that report senator schumer called it, quote, a devastating blow to mcconnell's push to have the trial and documents and witnesses we requested. for more i'm joined by anita

kumar, cynthia oxny and thanks to all of you for being with us. well, ruth, let me ask you about this because you have this new report coming out again. nbc news has not actually independently looked at these e-mails but the report is out there, schumer is seizing on it. from the democratic standpoint that's what they think is going to change the politics and more reports like this in their view might come out, ratchet up pressure on mcconnell. i suppose on the other side the question is there is time. if you keep running the clock like this other events are going to overtake impeachment like for example presidential election. are the democrats gaining any leverage here? >> well, they gained a little leverage with senator murkowski and gained a little with senator collins, and we'll see if there's more, but it's becoming increasingly untenable from my

point of view to argue you could fulfill your role as an impartial juror and take this constitutional responsibility seriously without hearing from additional witnesses, this latest from just security is another big dollop of icing on the cake of that. and i think it's really critical to keep pushing that, even though i understand democrats have a clock that's running out on them, they have -- they have candidates for the presidential nomination who need to be elsewhere than silting in their chairs in the senate and wanting to be doing that. so there's a lot of attention there, but there's a fundamental underlying constitutional responsibility. >> we mentioned the news with susan collins, there was lisa murkowski a couple of days ago. i think one of the questions, though, is what is collins actually saying? because i think the sindle read on it is she's got to worry about getting elected in a blue state, a state that voted for hillary clinton in 2016, so

she's got to show some kind of public distance here from what republicans are doing. but she also has to survive a potential republican primary in maine even to get to the general election. so is this ultimately just noise not going to lead to a fundamental break? what's your assessment of it? >> she's saying she could go both ways. she's open to witnesses but she's saying she doesn't have to have them. she doesn't say either way. and i think from the white house perspective they do feel they need to keep all the republicans in line, that's their main goal here, but they don't feel this is break, at least not a break yet. but they've been working for a couple of months now and they'll continue to work as this goes forward, and keeping all those republicans in line, they'll be counting on mitch mcconnell to help them do that. that's been their goal from the beginning. the one bright spot on the house vote for the president is he was very pleased all republicans stayed in line. not one person, you know, devoted the other way and in fact one democrat has now

switched to republican. so that's something very important to the president, and it's something that the white house knows and that they're going to be working on. >> while the senate continues to wait for nancy pelosi to deliver those articles of impeachment republican senator josh holly of missouri argues that because the articles haven't been delivered the trial can be dismissed even before it begins. holly tweeting this, quote, dems said impeachment was urge minute. now they don't want to have a trial because they have no evidence. in real world if prosecution doesn't have a case it gets dismissed. so on monday i'll introduce measure to dismiss this bogus impeachment for lack of prosecution. cynthia, let me start with you on the procedural issue here. this is united states senator saying he's going to introduce this on monday. what's the prospects of what he's saying here actually happening? >> i think they're quite low. he's making some kind of a reference to a speedy trial act violation which might happen in a criminal case, but it's been 14 days. there's not a court in america

that would dismiss anything on speedy trial act for 14 days and pelosi has had this pause. and boy, sure likes like she was smart about it because look at all this evidence that's come out. these just security e-mails are just damning for the president and also for the department of justice sadly to say. because what we can see ibthese e-mails is that when the department of justice released e-mails under the foya requirement, they redacted everything that hurt the president. they took things out like the pentagon was saying, well, what about the lawyers, have they seen this hold? and they were suggesting very early on there was a legal problem. and the pentagon was saying we may not be able to get this money and they redacted that out. we may not be able to actually if it's ever released get it to ukraine. there were lots of things happening and everything negative for the president, much of that was redacted. so it's not only bad for the

president, it's bad for doj and looks like a cover-up, and that increases the pressure on mcconnell to do something for witnesses, which we need if we're going to have a real trial. >> the politics of this, look it's the cliche at this point. this is not a swing state senator, not an up for grabs senator but it is a window into the republican politics playing out here? >> i hate to be the guy who spits in the punch bowl, but what i think is going on here is this is all an internal democratic psycho drama. pelosi holds the impeachment documents from the senate to make a hold, schumer says we need to have a trial. mcconnell p mcconnell's just saying no and unless four or five republican senators, not two, not just collins and murkowski, but five go over to the other side and vote for witness and vote to

change the rules to make it possible for democrats to get their way, none of this will happen. and i see absolutely no reason why whether or not it's a constitutional obligation, whether or not it makes the president look bad, the just security memos make him look bad, that this is going to go any way other than -- >> could you think of four republicans who plausibly in your mind could be persuaded to join the democrats on this? >> no. i can think of three conceivably. i could think of collins, murkowski and romney. i don't know who the fourth is and who the fifth is. the rule is you have to have a majority to write a rule, right, in this proceeding, which is where you can trip up -- where you can trip up mcconnell if he wants to have no witnesses. and, you know, democrats and liberals, they can scream until the cows come home this was a terrible hold up, but the clock was rushed by pelosi.

the other way of looking at this was she didn't wait for the supreme court to rule on whether or not don mcgahn had to testify, the white house counsel. they didn't wait on some of these documents. they wanted to get this done by december so there could be a trial in january, so it could be over by the primary season. that is not republican 135ub89. the way this has been handled is an entirely democratic matter and it is not i believe going well for them. that's where i disagree with cynthia. all of this is a big dance about how to make it -- how to put, you know, lipstick on a pig. >> let me ask cynthia about that. a very intentional decision democrats made on the house side to say we're not going to let the court cases play out here that might compel more documents, more testimony, we're going to just get this to the senate. it's an urgent matter because of the pending election. did that strategly affect how things are playing out now in a negative way for democrats? >> i will say this about what john said, first of all i agree i don't think collins will ever

come over to vote. i think she's a wolf in sheep's clothing and has heavy breathing and votes with mcconnell. that doesn't mean there's not a constitutional obligation. number two, i think the problem didn't happen in the intelligence committee. i think it happened in the judiciary over the summer. mcgahn was subpoenaed in may and stiff armed the house and they did nothing until august. that's a problem, and i would agree that was a mistake and it was not handled well. and if it was so urgent at the time don mcgahn testify, the subpoena should have been enforced instantly, and it was not. witnesses know they can stiff arm the congress, and there isn't time now. and that's all because of that waiting from may to august on mcgahn. >> i think the deepest point here is we're about to go into an election year. all this evidence, all this

information you're talking about is going to come out potentially, a lot of these documents through foya and all of that. the american people will judge in the election whether or not what trump did with ukraine was so heinous he should be denied a second term. >> let's stay on that point, ruth. i'm curious what you think of that because i mentioned the ticking clock earlier in all this. as democrats sort of wait on this, the campaign really does begin a month from tomorrow as iowa, 8 days later is new hampshire. if this is still sort of dragging out as we get to the presidential election campaign does that argument that john is making, does that potentially take hold among the critical chunk of voters. hey, we've already got the election going on, let's have the country be the jury for this? >> sure, that's a totally legitimate argument to take into account, which i think is a big piece of why democrats in the house wanted to rush things. but i think for one thing john is assuming facts not in evidence which is that this information is going to come out

anyway. when is this information going to come out if the senate doesn't insist on it? and wlosht you think the house did the right thing or wrong thing by not pushing certain subpoenas and by rushing things over to the senate, the fact of the matter is the senate has a separate and pre-existing constitutional responsibility to deal with the articles of impeachment when they are there, and i just don't understand -- i'm going to say it again -- how a responsible senator can say a president has been accused of these things and there are critical witnesses, john bolton, mick mulvaney, others who have relevant information who we have not heard from and we are being asked whether or not to remove a president at the very least i know they're not going to remove him. but at the very least they should know what information there is available to make their decision. >> all right, ruth marcus, cynthia, thank you all for being with us. and coming up, as the republican party lost its way? one long time gop strategist

says the party of trump has shattered traditional republican principles and now stands for all the wrong things. he's going to join us next. plus the president begins the new year with new global crises including violent demonstrations at inu.s. embath embassy in baghdad. >> this will not be a benghazi. this will never, ever be a benghazi. >> and he's facing critics asking if he's misjudged adversaries like kim jong-un. much more to get to. stay with us. kim jong-un much more to get to. stay with us my age-related macular degeneration could lead to vision loss.

so today i made a plan with my doctor, which includes preservision...because he said a multi- vitamin alone may not be enough. and it's my vision, my morning walk.. my sunday drive, my grandson's beautiful face. only preservision areds2 contains the exact nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. it's how i see my life. because it's my vision... preservision. actions speak louder than words. she was a school teacher. my dad joined the navy and helped prosecute the nazis in nuremberg. their values are why i walked away from my business, took the giving pledge to give my money to good causes, and why i spent the last ten years fighting corporate insiders who put profits over people. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message. because, right now, america needs more than words. we need action.

hey. ♪hey. you must be steven's phone.

now you can take control of your home wifi and get a notification the instant someone new joins your network... only with xfinity xfi. download the xfi app today. i don't think there's ever been a time where the republican party has been so united. i don't think we've ever had the spirit that we have right now in the republican party. i'll tell you the republicans are really strong. the strongest i've ever seen them. the republican party is the party for all americans.

we really are. we have changed this party so dramatically, folks. >> welcome back to "hardball." over the past three years president trump has completed a thorough reshaping of the republican party in his own image. that the argument that stuart stevens, the former chief strategist for mitt romney's 2020 presidential campaign makes in a scathing attack he says the gop has become. he writes this, quote, republicans are now the officially the character doesn't count party, the deficit doesn't matter party, the russia is our ally party, and the i'm right and you are wrong human scum party. yes, it's president trump's party now but it stands only for what he's just tweeted arb a party without a governing theory, a higher purpose or a clear moral direction is nothing more than a car tell, a syndicate that exists only to advance itself. steven adds the party no longer has a quote organized coherent purpose. and ends by saying president trump, quote, looked at the

party, saw it's fault lines and saw itself of accumulated white grievance and anger. he joins me now and currently advising a super pac advising william wells presidential campaign. your indictment of trump, your indictment of the republican party under donald trump, is it your contention that donald trump emerged and moved the republican party into a new and dark place, or did trump merely reveal and expose something that had been there for a while? >> i'm afraid that donald trump exposed parts of the party that a lot of us ignored for too long. there's always been a tension within the conservative party since post-world war ii. there was a mccarthy and there was an eisenhower. and the party came back. you know, i worked for both

campaigns for governor bush, and we really believed we were aspiring to something that was a conservative -- compassionate conservatism, that could bring people together. we got up to over 40% of the hispanic vote in 2004, won the popular vote for the first time since 1998. so there was this vision, and we certainly weren't perfect. we played too much of a dark side, i think, but we were aspiring to something that could make us proud and feel better. and donald trump i think appeal tuesday the worst of us all and manipulates that. >> so what happened in your party? you were the chief strategist for mitt romney, he ran in 2012, fell short against barack obama. when that campaign ended the rnc put out they called it the autopsy, their diagnosis of what was wrong. they said we've got to move to the middle on immigration, these social issues, it's the only way. and donald trump is a living breathing rebuke of that

autopsy, ran for president, didn't have a single elected official in the republican party, endorsement until he started winning states. how did he get control of this party? >> well, he won the nomination and he won the presidency. i think that when donald trump came out for a muslim ban back in february of 2016, which is really nothing more than a religious chest in the united states. how do you know if someone is muslim or not, you have to ask what their religion is. the party stepped forward and is said look wae can't stop donald trump from running but this party doesn't stand for this. we're a constitutional party. we don't believe in a religious test. ultimately parties in our system have to perform a certain circuit breaker function. and the party never threw the circuit breaker. governor romney now senator romney certainly did, but there's i think a tremendous lack of courage. part of the thinking was and i

would talk to people who would say, look, if we the establishment come out and put our thumb on the scale and when trump loses, we're going to get the blame. it's not because he had terrible ideas, not because he was racist and not because all this alt-right stuff. we just have to let him use, start over. and i would always ask him what if he wins. >> is part of this recipe, though, you're saying the establishment -- did the establishment are there valid reasons from the standpoint of the republican base that they gave up on the establishment? were there any legitimate grievances and trump standing up to them and doing something good here, was that part of the recipe at all? >> what is the establishment but whoever it is that wins. you're not the establishment if

you lose. that stuff is the reality of it. really parties are just a voluntary collection of people that are drawn together by ideas and a sense of purpose. you have to believe in some sort of aspirational purposes. to me it's not just the party has abandoned its root of character counts, personal responsibility, strong arm russia, deficit matters, we're now against all those things. words can change the world. when a president says it's so powerful, it can bring down the berlin wall. and now we say, look, words don't matter. it's just trump, it's just the president. we've denigrated everything we said we believed in, and i think it's a terrible bargain. what people forget about is it's not just that he takes your soul but never delivers what you want. so what do we have now?

we have these record deficits, unbelievable. mexico hasn't paid for a wall. barack obama was much tougher on immigration and more effective on immigration than donald trump is. what country is it around the world in which america is considered stronger? i think there can only be two possibly, russia and israel, and that's it. we have our allies literally laughing at us. and it's -- it's not a good thing. i mean, i feel like the republican party in a way it's like somebody is smoking two packs a day and they're arguing that smoking's healthy because they haven't died yet. i don't think it really works that way. >> we have just a short time -- i wanted to ask you about this because all these things that have been written and talked about these last few years where trump's rise came from in the republican party and i've got to ask you in 2012 your candidate mitt romney he sought trump's endorsement, received it. take a look here what happened back then.

>> it's my honor, real honor and privilege to endorse mitt romney. governor romney, go out and get them. you can do it. >> i want to say thank you to donald trump for his endorsement. it means a great deal to me to have the endorsement of mr. trump and people across this country who care about the future of america. >> i just got to ask you this was after years of the birther campaign trump had been waging saying obama wasn't even born in this country. was that a meet that legitimized trump to republicans? i don't think donald trump was legitimized because he endorsed mitt romney. you're running for president, people tend to accept those endorsements. that was before the nevada primary. he actually got a pretty good reputation in nevada as a business owner. we did it. looking back was it mistake, sure. i think it was a mistake.

but when someone endorses me doesn't mean i endorse them, and donald trump wanted to play a much larger role in that campaign. he wanted to leave traveling with mitt romney, he wanted to speak at the convention and campaign in the fall. probably shouldn't have done it. >> stuart stevens, thank you for joining us. really appreciate it. thank you. and up next trump's foreign policy misclal calculations are coming back potentially his critics say to haunt america. you're watching "hardball." caitics say to haunt ameri you're watching "hardball. hi, i'm jonathan, a manager here

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iran is a country that now because of all the sanctions and other things is a much different country than when i came here. when i came here they were all over the place causing terror, causing problems. they're not doing that right now. and i think they respect the united states rights now much more than they ever have. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump last june on the threat posed by iran. now trump begins the new year facing a pair of international crises. sky high-tensions with iran and a potentially escalating threat from north korea. iranian backed militias have pulled back after storming the u.s. embassy in baghdad earlier this week. but defense secretary mark esper warned that iran could be planning additional attacks. and despite the president's june 2018 proclamation that, quote, there is no longer a nuclear threat from north korea on new

year's day dictator kim jong-un warned of a, quote, new strategic weapon in the near future hinting at a quote to long-range missile tests. the recent flare ups underscore, quote neither seems to fear him precisely the critique he leveled at barack obama back in the days mr. trump declared america's toughest national security challenges would be solved as soon as a president the world respected was in office. for more i'm joined by christopher hill, former ambassador to iraq and south korea, and who served on the national security counsel during both the obama and bush administrations. 'd ambassador, let me start with you. the situation in baghdad, you know the area very well. we played what the president sort of public line on iran has been of late, preceding this what do umake of the decision by iran, these iranian backed militias to go ahead and try to pull off something like this and the response from the united states so far, is it going to

deter anymore attack ss? >> first of all, i think it's important to understand there's no question there's iranian support for the shea militia groups, but these are pretty hard-edged people in the first place. these are people vice president cheney promised us would all just be throwing rose petals on our troops, and in fact this has been very difficult with these groups. i myself and they tried to blow up my car. these are tough minded people. so i understand the point to kind of lay this all at the doorstep of the iranians, and certainly they need to take some blame for this, but this is far more complex issue than the president seems to understand. so whether they are going to come back for more in the future, it's hard to say. i have no problem with going after people who come after our people, in this case actually killing a contractor, but i think we're going to have to get

a lot smarter in how we do this. i'm not sure if f-16 attacks are the way to do this and killing scores of people. so i think there needs to be a lot more thoughtfulness, if you will, to go forward and i'm not sure this president is known for that. >> in a series of tweets on tuesday president trump praised the u.s. forces for their response warning, quote, iran will be fully responsible for lives lost or damage incurred at any of our facilities. they will pay a very big price. this is not a warning, it is a threat. trump again touted the military response at a new year's eve gala at his mar-a-lago resort. >> well, i think it's been handled very well. the marines came in, we had some great warriors come in and do a fantastic job, and it's in great shape. as you know this will not be a benghazi. benghazi should never have happened. this will never, ever be a benghazi. >> the president went onto say he did not want war with iran, but he did warn any armed

conflict, quote, wouldn't last long. kelly the ambassador points to the complexity of the situation here. what should a response look like? >> i think what we're seeing is that the president of the united states is deeply conflicted. on the one hand he wants to be perceived as tough, and he wants to use his words and actions to deter the iranians. on the other hand, he's deeply afraid of getting embroiled in a deeper war in the middle east, so i think that dichotomy is playing out and unfortunately our adversaries see that as conflict within trump, and i think they're playing into that space and taking advantage of it. i think, of course, we should take defensive actions were necessary to defend our personnel and our troops, but we should definitely avoid the kind of rhetoric and public discussion of some of the things we're doing in part because it puts the iraqi government in a terrible political position as it tries to actually restore some calm. my recommendation would be for the trump administration to dial

down some of the bra vavado in current context. >> the president was asked if he has a message for kim jong-un. >> i have a good relationship. he likes me, we get along. but he did sign a contract, he did sign an agreement talking about denuclearization, and was signed number one sentence, denuclearization. that was done in singapore and i think he's a man of his word. >> ambassador, what do you make of that, i think he's a man of his word? we've got this new posture coming out of north korea. that's the president's public response. do you see strategic wisdom in approaching it that way at all? >> no, the problem is first of all i think it was an okay idea for the president to lead us to the resumpian of the process but then he has to say to north koreans, okay, i want your people to work with my people,

and then he needs to anoint his own staff and say when you talk to these people it's like talking to me. so he's got to make it very clear that these people really kountd, and then he needs to setup some bench marks. in fact, we went to singapore and what it turned out to be they had a very vague statement, extremely vague. i mean the north koreans really did not commit to denuclearization. they had a kind of concept of the end of days when the lions lie down with the lambs we'll have denuclearization. there was nothing of any specifics there. they didn't follow up. it was very clear the north koreans were not prepared to go forward, and then we went into several months hiatus when they basically decided they would only talk to a negotiator whose name was donald trump. they wouldn't talk to anyone else. and i think they tried something in hanoi. i thought it was kind of interesting, actually, but as usual the north koreans were a little vague about it. and that was decommissioning the main nuclear facility.

and the president has this kind of view he can get this all done in one step, and he said we're not interested in that. and after just a few hours whether he was worried about michael cohen's testimony that day in the congress, hard to say. but after just a few hours he walked out and we haven't seen any progress since then. >> ambassador christopher hill, kelly, thank you both for being with us. and up next going to head over to the big board. we've got money, money, money. new fund-raising numbers coming out from the crowded democratic field. what does it tell us about their positioning almost exactly one month before iowa? you're watching "hardball." ly oe month before ia?ow you're watching "hardball. the good news? our comfort lasts all day. the bad news? so does his energy. depend® fit-flex underwear offers your best comfort and protection guaranteed. because, perfect or not, life's better when you're in it. be there with depend®. green things and brown just eat the food. i'm allergic to all things green. [audible sigh] ♪

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all right, welcome back to "hardball." 32 days to go now, just one day before the one month count down begins until the iowa caucuses and when iowa comes they come pretty fast after that, too.

before long we're going to know the democratic nominee, who's going to go up against donald trump and what goes into figuring who the democratic nominee is going to be. well, there's obviously the voters themselves and also money. we're starting to find out how much money these candidates are going to have for this final sprint. this is fourth quarter, it last three months of the year, 2019, we're into 2020 right now. we're starting to get the official tallies for what these campaigns raised. the front runners nationally, bernie sanders took in nearly $35 million in the last three months of 2019. he's going to have money in the homestretch of this democratic race. pete buttigieg, nearly $25 million, second most prolific fund-raiser and biden back at nearly $23 million and warren her campaign said there's going to be at least $17 million and we'll get the official number soon. if you're just looking at these numbers you might say sanders is running laps around the field, but voters i should say in the

polls don't necessarily line up in this. biden might be in third place but he continues to lead nationally. sanders almost 10 points behind him. all that money buttigieg has raised, still only 8% nationally and we'll see about warren. other candidates we're keeping an eye on here, we don't know what the numbers will be for cory booker, for amy klobuchar and a big number, 16.5 million, but the question there has certainly attracted a large online following. we'll see what happens there. and the candidates who wouldn't taking the money inasmuch as they're spending the money, as much as the money is going out, billionaires who have already spent -- bloomberg, $120 million. steyer, $83 million. this is money they've spent so far. those numbers are going to get much bigger in the next month or

so. that's gotten him 2% in the national polls. we'll see as they pileup tens of millions of more on top of that and of course bloomberg with that unconventional strategy is not contesting new hampshire, nevada, south carolina, he's waiting until super tuesday. a few more numbers to come in the next few days. big numbers for bernie sanders, but biden does lead in the polls. money isn't everything in politics, even though sometimes you might get that impression. while bernie sanders fund-raising numbers show he has some staying power, one candidate says he realizes 2020 is not his time for president. that's up next. you're watching "hardball." r pr. that's up next you're watching "hardball. let's be honest, every insurance company

says they can save you dollars. which makes it hard to believe, especially coming from a talking lizard. cheerio! esurance is built to save you dollars. and when they save dollars, you save dollars. so get a quote. when insurance is affordable, it's surprisingly painless. when insurance is affordable, if you listen to the political it sounds like we have a failed society. but nothing could be further from the truth. americans are compassionate and hardworking. we aren't failing. our politicians are failing. that's why i'm running for president. to end the corporate takeover of the government. and give more power to the american people. that's how we'll win healthcare, fair wages, and clean air and water as a right. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. i have moderate to severe pnow, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free ♪

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i'm so proud of the campaign we've run together. stood up for the most vulnerable people and given a voice to those who are often forgotten. but with only a month until the iowa caucuses and given the circumstances of this campaign season i have determined that it simply isn't our time. so today it's with a heavy heart and with profound gratitude that i will suspend my campaign for president. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was former hud secretary julian castro announcing his decision to withdraw from the democratic race for president. while the field is narrowing there are actually still 14 official candidates who are out

there in this race. and the campaigns are back in full swing after the holidays. we just said this, the iowa caucus is 32 days from today. former vice president joe biden got a boost today gaining the endorsement of iowa freshman and i'm joined now by a political reporter for axios and national political reporter for bloomberg news. thanks to both of you for being with us. we mentioned there are 14 still out there technically on the democratic side. of course it seems one tof lessons here from castro's campaign is if you can't get on that debate stage, if you can't get in front of 10, 15 million viewers for these debates, it's tough to continue and have a plausible chance for winning. >> i think that is right, and that is conventional wisdom. though julian castro's campaign sort of defied that scenario when we saw he got more online donations in the last two debates that he wasn't even on the stage for compare today the previous two debates he was on the stage for.

he had this really interesting dynamic happening where even though he wasn't on the national stage he was doing these town halls in atlanta talking about issues relating to black and brown communities when other candidates maybe were not talking about that. the other interesting example of this dynamic is someone like senator cory booker who also hasn't been making the debate stage as of late. so he's someone i'm looking for. >> we mentioned again and some of the candidates may be stepping up their efforts a bit. in an interview published late this afternoon, bernie sanders went after joe biden. he told "the washington post" robert costa, quote, bidens record and ties to the establishment make him ill-suited to defeat trump in november. quote, it's just a lot of baggage joe takes into a campaign. he brings into this campaign a record so weak it just cannot create the kind of excitement and energy that is going to be

needed to defeat trump. we have been looking at this democratic race for a long time now, and there was a brief moment with kamala harris in the first debate, there was a brief moment with hulgen castro trying to go after biden in one of the debates, but largely these candidates have not attacked joe biden. it seems notable sanders is doing this. >> it looks like the gloves are coming off, steve. bernie sanders is attacking joe biden right where he's perceived to be the strongest, on electability. it's not news voting for the iraq war and supporting nafta, but now he's waving that into an overarching critique which is that joe biden cannot win the election and goes to most of what the polls say as the biden campaign will point out many times over which is biden is doing the best in these head to head match ups in key states. they have a fork in the road now. do they try to win the election

the conventional way they had done in elections previously successfully and unsuccessfully by persuading moderate voters or do they do it the bernie sanders way who says essentially they need to rip up the play book and mobilize a brand new progressive coalition, inspire new voters to join and get involved who don't think the democratic party of joe biden is really looking out for them. so this is huge question and i think this will be a fundamental divide and debate going ahead to iowa. >> can i add something to that? >> go ahead. >> something that's fascinating or struck me in that interview sanders did with "the post" and you pulled out this, when he says joe biden is too closely tied to the political establishment and that's sort of the million dollar question, donald trump ran as an anti-establishment candidate to his success in 2016. he's obviously been a sitting president for four years and he's running his re-election campaign, so it's a little harder to argue he's not part of the establishment, but i think

he's going to try to use the impeachment against him in the house as a way to show he's still the outsider these establishment politicians are after, and that's one potential vulnerability for biden that the trump re-elect campaign can come after him for to paint him as this elite character versus donald trump who they will say is the anti-establishment hero of the right. >> we put those fund-raising numbers up. sanders is going to have the numbers to make a push for this thing. his poll numbers i think a lot of people myself included were wondering if that was going to be it for the campaign, and he's in second place nationally here. there's a theory here that sanders is just a win in iowa away from making an awful lot of dominos fall. you win in iowa, rolling in new hampshire and you take it out to nevada and suddenly bernie sanders is 3-0 on his way to the nomination. what do you make of that theory out there?

we'll start with you. i've learned in broadcasting 101 to say who you're asking the question to and somehow i forgot. >> i think that's an interesting strategy and it's clearly something a lot of campaigns have been looking towards. success in iowa will beget more success in other states. bernie sanders has been climbing in the polls but sanders has been either tied or beating biden in iowa polls specifically, so it's interesting to see what he'll try to do to make his electability who maybe want someone more moderate or willing to work with republicans. >> 15 seconds. >> steve, bernie sanders is clearly a formidable contender. he should not be written off. but this money shows even if he doesn't win the nomination, he'sane a very good position to stay in the race, influence the

direction of the party platform, influence the positions of the eeventualual nominees, so he can play at the very least a king maker role even if he isn't the nominee. it's a very different landscape. >> very true. thank you both for being with us. and up next, new polling in some key states shows good news for joe biden. general election states here. you're watching "hardball." general election states here you're watching "hardball. to treat her frequent heartburn, marie could only imagine enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice. now no fruit is forbidden. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

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well, we've talked here about the lack of state polling in the democratic race. we have a ton of national polls but we don't have a lot of iowa, new hampshire, nevada and south carolina. the key early states that are going to go a long way in determining who wins the democratic nomination. but we did get another kind of state poll this week, two polls from potentially key states in the general election. start with florida, no need to tell you how big florida can be in presidential elections. trump won it narrowly in 2016, and if democrats can flip it this year that'll go a long way but check this out a new poll in florida shows elizabeth warren down 9 to trump, sanders down 5, buttigieg down 4, but biden is actually up by 2. that's the best of any democrat in florida. and that's a story we keep seeing in polls like this. mason dixon also checked in on virginia. donald trump lost virginia by 6 points in 2016. the expectation is it's going to

be just as blue, maybe even more blue in 2020, but mason dixon finds sanders down 6 in virginia, warren down 2, buttigieg down 2, biden up by 4, the only democrat k leading in this poll. it's an outlier. maybe the other polls will find all the democrats doing better in virginia, maybe better in florida, too. it's not the only time we've found joe biden doing notably better with trump than any other democrats. it's been a pattern for months now. things can certainly change in politics but i wonder what effect this has on democratic voters in all those key early primary states. polls show they are much more concerned than usual about electability, about finding someone, anyone who can beat donald trump. and surely they see what we all see, poll after poll showing joe biden fairing better than any of his rivals against trump. it is unquestionably biden's

biggest strength right now, the sense among democrats he's got the best chance of taking on trump. the candidates are going to spend it frantically pleading their case. every poll that looks like these two is probably the best closing message he's got. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> it was a perfect call. >> damning new evidence about the president's orders in the ukraine scheme. >> get over it. >> tonight what we're learning from newly unredacted pentagon e-mails, why democrats are calling for more impeachment evidence and witnesses. and will republicans plow ahead with the cover-up? plus -- >> this will never, ever be a again gauzy. >> what we know about what happened at the u.s. embassy in iraq and why the president's policies are being blamed. then as another candidate leaves the race new fund-raising numbers that show wild