he's lawyering up. let's play hardball. >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with this impeachment trial just four days away, the president is lawyering up. today nbc news is reporting the lawyers controversial figuring including class 4.

alan dershowitz is a celebrity attorney who says he'll make a institutional defense of the president and ken starr is the former independent counsel who's investigation of president clinton led to his impeachment. dershowitz of course has a history of defending controversial figures including von buelo o, mike tiyson and jeffrey epstein. his most famous clan of course was o.j. simpson whom he helped to beat a double murder charge in what was called the trial of the century. dershowitz has argued for expansive powers of trump's executive presidency. he said in november that under the constitution, the president has more power than a king. >> the president's far more powerful than the king. the president has the power that kings have never had. he's very, very powerful office and the framers wanted it that way.

>> never mind what you were taught in civics or history classes. for ken starr, the shoe is now on the other foot after prosecute iing the case againste president, he's now defending another. as trump's lawyer, he's likely to oppose witness testimony even though he knows its value. as he said in 1998, there's no substitute for looking a witness in the eye, asking detailed questions, matching the answers against verifiable facts. the record also shows that donald trump did not hold starr in high esteem. >> i think ken starr is a lunatic. i really think that ken starr is a disaster. a long and terrible process. i really think that ken starr was terrible. >> likewise, starr has recently criticized trump saying his tweet against ambassador yovanovitch was unimportant and that sunday land's case -- the

president was not advised by counsel in deciding to do this tweet. extraordinarily poor judgment. the president frequently says i follow my instincts. sometimes, we have to control them. >> we have sondland's understanding, it doesn't look good for the president substantively. this has been one of those bombshell days. >> according to nbc news, trump's legal defense team will spend the weekend preparing their case before they square off against the seven managers named by speaker pelosi this week. rudy giuliani won't be joining trump's legal team, but tells nbc he'll still advise the president in an unofficial capacity. i'm joined by mika, george, paul, former federal prosecutor. you know dershowitz. he's somewhat argue mentive. i think he takes cases just to points of view just to be that.

what do you think he's up to here with this expansive notice of what a president can do? i watched him on ari's program. he basically sayses a president can really put himself in trouble by abusing power because all presidents abuse u power. that was his argument. >> that's wrong as a matter of the constitution, but i think there's two objectives to this. the first is about not calling witnesses. he wants to make the case that even if everything that the articles suggest trump did are true, the facts don't matter. under the constitution, his argument is that it doesn't rise to the kind of high crime or misdemeanor necessary for removal from office. again, if you look at the history, that's just flat out wrong. what trump is accused of doing fall into categories like mall administration, abuse of office. what alexander hamilton and the other framers had in mind. the concern that someone like trump would reach office and the

second thing really quickly is to give republican senators some cover for not voting to remove trump. they can say it's not just trump's own white house counsel and his own poererson lawyers, these two respected legal scholars also believe that the president shouldn't be removed from office. >> let's take a look at what dershowitz said moments ago on this network. >> abuse of power, even if pr e proved is not an impeachable offense. the framers didn't want to give conditions the authority to remove the president because he abuse d his powe. they have to prove treason, bribery, b but other crimes. >> you're making news here b about what you'll argue on the president's behalf. the news you're making as i understand it is that quote abuse of power in your argument, does not constitute as a high crime under the constitution? >> if you wanted to charge him with a crime, that's what they did in the clinton impeachment. they charged him with specific crimes. what they did with nixon.

but they didn't, here, they haven't charged him with specific crimes as part of the articles of impeachment. >> this is an argument that back i think, i don't know why dershowitz is arguing this because i've never heard anybody else arguing this. it's meant to be a political act. abuse of power. taking the presidency and using it in a way it should not be used under the constitution. >> yeah and we've had a number of people not necessarily the president but other lower level officials impeach and removed from office on things that are similar about misusing their power. we have the governor of illinois go to jail for a similar thing. of trying to withhold a a thing of value and trying to get something for it. whether a political favor or money, i think it's something we have an entire public corruption section at the department of justice to go after public officials who abuse their power this way. i think it's very clear that what the president's done here. in using, in withholding aid to try and force another country to

force his political rival is really the kind of abuse of power the framers were warning against. >> george, you wrote really well recently about the bu abuse of power. what dershowitz is saying is that the president can take us to war against switzerland because there's in crime against it. >> well, we did go to war against libya. seven months, probably the longest assassination attempt in world history. and republicans said at the time, dick lugar and others who are hardly fanatical, the danger was the abuse of power standard for peemd that when ever you have the presidency and one congress in another, you could have, come up with a standard and the president is abused power because in some sense, it's in the eye of the beholderer and the beholders will always find an abuse of power. >> back to paul. what about the thee at ricks here. you studied under him, b i

believe. he also outside of the world of law is the world of theatre. and he shares that with trump. there's a reason why he's always on television, dershowitz. he takes these cases like onl where he really made his name. how is he going to change the theatre here? i get the feeling how they just on the ari show, he's going to be all over the place outside that senate chamber makinging the case. >> he's an intellectual heavyweight and is an emeritus professor at harvard. but don't get it twisted. he's a street fighter. a zealous advocate for his clients. he'll be willing to not just make the case of senate, but to get down and dirty on fox and msnbc. so to make the political case as well as the legal case. again, he's long on the merits on the legal case, but it will be interesting to see how he goes over politically. >> i just don't know how they're going to have a case or a trial where they prevent the inflow,

the avalanche of evidence that just keeps coming in. any way, the house of representatives has just released more material from lev parnas including new text messages that show extensive contact between parnas and a staffer to nunes. i want to bring in nbc news national reporter with the news. josh. >> chris, i want to say from the get go that we are just going through these documents. a whole trench that is just come out and is a lot in there. but there's new information in there about this story line we've been following over the last couple of days about robert high, this republican congressional candidate who told lev parnas that he had some type of a surveillance operation on ambassador yovanovitch. earlier today, robert had pointed the finger on twitter at someone else, another trump supporter that he identify anthony decaloway and he copied

and pasted it to lev parnas. we spent part of the day trying to figure out if that was accurate or not and now in these new documents that come out from the house, we can see that they're essentially what happened was somebody using a belgian phone number and a photograph that matches anthony had sent this information about the where abouts of ambassador yovanovitch to robert then he had forwarded screen shots of those messages to lev parnas. so what he was saying earlier today about getting this information second hand from what we can tell from these new documents, appears to be corroborated. there's also a voice mail. basically a what's app audio message that is included from what was turned over by parnas where you hear an accented

voice, it's confirmed, she's in ukraine. we can't tell at this moment who's the voice in that, but it's further evidence that there were a lot of back and forth messages about ambassador yovanovitch's where abouts. whether those details were connect or this was just making stuff up, we have yet to be able to tell that, but as you know, the state department and ukraine's interior minister are now investigating this. >> thank you for that latest r report. this thing keeps going. somebody once said about watergate, i read it on the door in greenwich village, it's india. this just getting more entangled. even to the point we're now the ukrainian government is investigating the use cerve lance over there. >> and look, ukraine is place where there's a tremendous

amount of surveillance so the idea that there are security services for hire out there is entirely possible and clearly, the state department was concerned for her safety and rushed her out of the country, but this is something we really need to get to the bottom of. it's one of these things we hope that the government takes seriously. threats against united states ambassador are threats to the united states. these are people who serve as the representatives of our entire nation abroad. >> this is a strange case because it's like the beginning of watergate rather than the end. you've got all this stuff we're learn iing now, this character robert heidi heidi who was a bar fly at the trump hotel. he apparently went to the expensive bar there. made friends with people. got to know parnas. got to know rudy and they're all working somehow in the interest of pruch. >> these drifters make burglars look -- >> carter paige. >> exactly.

the problem is what we're talking about tonight is another boulder in the revelation, but none of it matters because republicans are willing as the lawyers say to stipulate that everything said about trump is true. it's irrelevant because of the reason that mr. dershowitz said. it's irrelevant because unless you can point to a clear federal crime, it does not matter. >> tha of course paul butler, we have the fact he broke the law with regard to a pounding funds approved by korncongress that doesn't carry a criminal sanction. not a crime, just against the law. >> it does not refer to specific stat choir crimes. those kind of crimes didn't even exist at the time the constitution was written. it's a term of olive the founders to mean corruption. mall administration.

someone attaining the high power of being a president of the united states and using that extraordinary power for their own personal ends. >> so why is dershowitz your former mentor to some extent, why is he out there basically showing off? to be blunt about it, and saying that the constitution doesn't allow for the prosecution of a president, impeachment of a president, unless you have some criminal code he violate d? why is he saying that. >> he was a great law professor. one of the reasons i wanted to be a criminal lawyer. he's a much better criminal lawyer than a constitutional lawyer. he's wrong on the constitution here and again, i think he's using his status in a way that's not appropriate. that's not becoming. he's amer tuss professor, it's dangerous for the nation that he might be effect with republicans. again, he'll use this status to give them cover.

>> what about to the idea of limited government? limited power in the hands of government officials including the president? >> not including the president, especially the president because the growth of power throughout the 20th century is the biggest threat to institution that james madison designed. yes, i'm talking to you, msnbc listeners, the progressives in this country have given us the inflateded presidency and i wonder if they're enjoying it. >> we'll see. i think we enjoyed roosevelt r more. thank you very much. coming up, with opening arguments, the impeachment trial just days away now, coming tuesday, can we expect any senate defectors from the gop that has increasingly become the party of trump? will senators like mitt romney who flirts with with greatness, lisa murkowski's got guts, tow

the line or push for a fair trial? plus, inside the tank with pruch. new excerpts from an upcoming book that tell a meeting at the pentagon with a commander in chief called a room of top military brass dopes and babies. and with just weeks to go until the iowa kcaucuses, three of th five top democratic presidential candidates will find themselves locked in the senate chamber. for the impeachment trial of president trump. what will the final days in iowa look like without senators sa sanders, warren, klobuchar. much more to get to tonight. history's coming upon us. stick with us. ory's coming upons stick with us. ♪ limu emu & doug [ siren ] give me your hand! i can save you... ...lots of money with liberty mutual. we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! [ grunting ]

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senators and their party. being a republican during the trump presidency demands much. he is quick to anger at any republican who strays from absolute loyalty. a lot of attention has been paid to five republican senators seen as potential votes for witnesses in a trial in recent days. including retiring senator lamar alexander of tennessee and cory gardener up for a tough reelection. "the wall street journal" reports that alexander expressed openness to hearing witnesses and is in political war against president trump. his career is pretty much behind him. senator gardener has dodged questions about where he stands. a local station couldn't get a straight answer when they dodged him. >> are you open to new witnesses? >> we have trial.

that's where we are right now. >> you talk about impartiality, is it possible for any senator to be impartial in the trial? >> that's their constitutional duty and the oath we took. >> i know you hosted a fundraiser for president trump. he's promised to campaign for you. how do you plan to maintain that impartially? >> there are people running against trump in the senate. we have a duty to be impartial. >> i charlie, i owe you an apology. i couldn't believe it. you were right. you said the speaker of the house was going to hold on to the articles of impeachment. you were right. you had every time. i'll let you start with tonight. what do you hear about the magic republicans that might break with the pack and give us a real trial? >> i think it's possible.

look, i mean, i'm used to disappointment. here it is lucy with the football, but this is a relatively easier vote than voting to convict. you need four republicans to say we need to hear from the witnesses and think about all the things we have learned since that house vote since nancy pelosi held the impeachment. the emails that we've received. lev parnas coming out. john bolton saying he's willing to testify. the gao report. so i think the pressure on republicans is going to be very, very intense. not to ignore this, plus think about the risk if they obstruct those witnesses and obstruct that evidence if more things come out then their votes become absolutely toxic. >> i was talking about the sense i get with this cornucopia of stuff coming out. it hits us at 6:30 at night. we have to get it into the show like we did about the whole thing with yovanovitch and the surveillance. this thing is growing. it's getting larger and larger. how do you shut it down and go

back to any group and say we got to the truth? >> trump is basically asking them to exonerate him without having any idea really what they're exonerating him of and what's going to pop out later. in some ways, it's just in their interest to get it out there and know what's out there before they take the vote so they don't have to answer for it later. the other thing and you see it with martha mcsally. she had a thuggish outburst at a cnn reporter who asked if he was open to evidence. it's a really pathetic and grotesque display. after all that, she goes on fox news and she still won't answer the question of whether she wants witnesses. it's a hard call for someone like mcsally. think about how much of a harder call it is for susan collins. >> the arizona senator appoint to the office went on the attack when a cnn reporter dared to ask her if they should hear evidence. >> should the senate consider new evidence?

>> you're a liberal hack. i'm not going to talk to you. >> i guess she didn't see the camera. within hours however mcsally running to keep her seat was out there fundraising off that little incident. in an interview with fox she was asked if she regretted the insult to the reporter. >> no, laura, i do not. and i said it again, actually, as i went in. i said you're a liberal hack. they're so biassed. they are so in cahoots with the democrats. they can't stand the president and they run around trying to chase republicans and ask trapping questions. i'm a fighter pilot. i called it like it is. >> but mcsally, the senator, wasn't quite prepared to call it like it is when the host, good for her, laura ingraham flipped the script. >> what about the question, do you want witnesses you can call

me a conservative hack, but do you want witnesses? yes or no? why aren't you telling us? >> because we're going to vote on tuesday to start the trial, and let them present the -- >> how are you going to vote on the motion for witnesses? >> we're going to get to that. i'm not going to tell everybody my votes but -- >> it's an easy question, don't you think, senator? >> what's this? making this chuckle worthy. that's a new thing you do when you have an unpleasant get. you get a giggle and laugh it off. i think laura ingraham nailed her. she wasn't ready for a simple question. do you want to have a vote? do you want to vote for witnesses or not? >> well, yeah. and what you saw there was a display of petulant hackery, and trumpism. this is the cheap play for republicans who don't want to answer the questions and may

feel uncomfortable defending trump's conduct right now. just lash out at the media. this is the low-hanging fruit that somehow that you insult a reporter, by the way, who by all accounts is respected by both sides who is just doing his job asking a straightforward question. and then spiking the football. look, the fact is that martha mcsally is trailing in arizona. mark kelly is raiding more money than she is. i think she looks cheap. i think she looks desperate. i think this is going to backfire on her. i think it also reflects the kind of pressure that's going to be on the senators over the next couple weeks. this is not going to be an easy vote for republicans. >> yeah. you know, michelle, when i read your column, i know how smart you are. i mean, you can't fake it with a column twice a week. you have brain and thoughts and imagination and creativity, and you understand. you ask yourselves the right questions and try to come up with the right answers. that's the process of running a

column. that appointed senator acts like she's never considered the most obvious questions like are you for witnesses? >> well, i think one thing to know about mcsally, she is the only senator who lost her most recent senate election. i mean, as you said, appointed senator. and so she's in a very rough position. she needs to rile up the base. she needs to fundraise. this was also a fundraising ploy, and at the same time, she's in a very purple state that might not take kindly to her participating in the coverup that trump wants. >> it's so great to ask her questions, though. because you always get a reaction. thank you, michelle. great columnist. charlie, again, you were right last time. i'll keep score. up next, president trump reportedly calls military commanders dopes and babies. this is mr. bone spur talking. he said they don't know how to win. he never tried to win. he never had a uniform on except i guess in high school. plus more of that new evidence out tonight from lev parnas trying to get to the fire hydrant of news. it just keeps coming.

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(glass shattering) (frustrated yell) (car horn blast) (yelp) under the leadership of barack obama and hillary clinton the generals have been reduced to rubble. they have been reduced to a point where it's embarrassing for our country. >> i know more about isis than the generals do. believe me. >> they don't know much, because they're not winning, that i can

tell you. >> welcome back to "hardball". that was donald trump talking about the top military leaders. in private his tirade against them went further once he won the presidency calling top generals losers to their faces. that was the word he used. that's according to an upcoming book by washington post reporters. it's called "a very stable genius". the book is out, i believe. a new excerpt released in the washington post describes the president lashing out during a pentagon meeting in the summer of 2017. quote, you're all losers, trump said. you don't know how to win anymore. he added i wouldn't go to war with you people and then referred to them as a bunch of dopes and babies. these are generals he's talking to. i'm joined by ted from california. a former active duty office who serves as a member of the air force reserves.

jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense. congressman, thank you for your service and thank you for coming on tonight. this treatment, this treatment of our top military people, how do you react to it? >> thank you, chris, for your question. donald trump would have more credibility and criticizing our military leaders if he had served in the military, but he didn't. he allegedly had a bone spur of which no credible person could verify. he escaped the draft when many people were risking their lives, and he lacked courage. he didn't even have that to serve. to criticize military leaders is beyond the pale. >> it's the tank, where the top joint chiefs meet to have their most critical discussions, and he uses it for addressing one of all of them. everyone in the room as losers. it seems like -- i hate to make

the head rick connection, but it looks like movies where you see the guy trashing the generals because they're losing the war. it seems like an eight-year-old talking to the grownups. >> so it's really obnoxious. it also shows he doesn't value service. the people in that room do not get paid a lot of money. some of them risk their lives to go fight. and what we have here is a person who is largely ignorant. if you read the excerpt from the book, doesn't know a lot about the world and saying we should be deploying military troops and making a profit. military troops are not mercenaries. we should not make a profit. the military leaders should not have been dressed down and i think the president should apologize to the military leaders. >> someone years ago advised me how to deal with government officials. they said i want to be not too crude, but these are the words. he said people don't do their best work when they're being peed on. >> and the context of this was

as you referenced on the tank where the joint chiefs meet. i've been in that room. the most consequential decisions are made in that room. and here's trump. his own advisers realize he doesn't understand the world or care to understand the world. he shows he's arrogant. he's disrespectful. he's condemning them for their expertise, and third, he's a neo isolationist. he's saying we shouldn't have a military in the world. it's totally inconsistent with national security. >> it's the kind of guy you talk to in a bar. the house released new material tonight from lev parnas including the text messages that show extensive contact between him, parnas, and a staffer to a

ranking republican on the house intelligence committee, nunes. it shows a senior investigator was working to get material about the 2016 election. the old conspiracy. if new evidence includes a slew of new pictures of parnas with the president's son, giuliani, and mike brown. congressman, congressman, what do you make of this? one of your colleagues who sits as ranking republican on the intel committee investigating himself? himself? intel committee investigating himself? no. doesn't matter. he doesn't go after himself even though he's a party to this. >> let me first disclose that the lawyer for devin nunes wrote me a letter threatening he will see me if i don't apologize for saying he conspired with lev parnas. and conspired to undermine our own government. it turns out based on text messages and the record and the amazing interview on the rachel

maddow show that i'm right. i said they can take the letter and shove it. with the additional evidence, it's even more damning, especially for the staff to devin nunes. i think right now devin nunes should not be sitting on the house intelligence committee. he needs to be removed. >> i don't understand legislators have a job. that's their lane that they work in. they vote. they write legislation. they try to figure out what's wrong and try to right it. they're not operational. they don't operate like ollie north got in trouble. he's an adviser to the president. he's running missiles over to iran. i mean, these guys -- why -- you've worked for the government. why would the u.s. congressman

get stuff to come back down the next day and give it to the next wing working as a staffer for the president? >> that's right. his constitutional responsibility under article one is to be an overseer. to conduct oversight and be a check on executive branch power and policy. instead, he's gone to the other side. he's basically decided i'm going to work for trump and help him advance this false narrative about ukraine. i'm going to help him politically so he can win reelection and maybe reward me with more. >> congressman, again thank you for your service and being here tonight. here we are in the very eve of a senate trial for this president. and yet, as we sit here, the news keeps coming through over the transom through the door rushing like a flood. we keep learning more about surveillance of an ambassador in kiev. it looks like she was being harassed or they scared her enough to have her yanked out of the country she was so -- had such reason to be afraid. what is going on here? there's so much information. are we going to get this in a trial or is it going to be kept out of the door? >> right. we absolutely need a full and fair trial in the senate.

it's ridiculous of a question like should we have witnesses not being answered. that should be yes. who heard of a trial without any witnesses and documents. then we should take a step back and understand that donald trump is the first republican president to be impeached. and it's for abusing his power, soliciting foreign interference in our election. no one is above the law. no one should be treated differently because they're president. every trial has witnesses and documents and that's what we should have in the senate. >> thank you both for your expertise. a quick programming note. the authors of trump's presidency next tuesday. this is a great book. by the way, i sell books here. because i like them. this book is fun to read. if you've been following me, this is tuesday they're coming. this book is fun to read. it's candy for people who love to follow politics, even if it's horrible in the nature. still ahead with the caucuses weeks ahead, what will

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with president trump's impeachment trial in session, a number of 2020 democratic hopefuls have been sidelined locked into the senate chamber, you might say. of the 12 democrats running for president, four of them will be out of commission as they assume their duties a jurors in the impeachment trial of president trump. some of the senators were asked if they were worried about being off the trail. >> are you concerned about how this will effect your campaign? >> yeah, i am.

i would rather be in iowa today. there's a caucus there in two and a half weeks. i'd rather be in new hampshire and in nevada and so forth, but i swore a constitutional oath as a united states senator to do my job, and i'm here to do my job. >> it is my constitutional duty, and when i can go campaign in those early states including nevada and south carolina, i will. but when i have to be there, i will. >> the way i think is it's out of my control. i have to be there to fulfill my constitutional responsibility. >> nbc news spoke to a hand full of new hampshire voters about the new reality. >> are you cutting people any slack who can't come out and talk in person? >> very little. you know, if elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, if i don't know enough about them already. >> are you cutting them any slack? >> i think so. i think they're doing the responsibility by being where they need to be in congress. that's a really important thing they're doing down there, too.

>> that's true. the senators' absence from the campaign trail couldn't come at a worse time. a poll from iowa shows how up for grabs that contest really is. that's next. you're watching "hardball". t. you're watching "hardball" 's whye liberty mutual. they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. almost done. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ whatever happens out there you have the hilton app. will the hilton app help us pick the starters? great question, no. but it can help you pick your room from the floor plan. can the hilton app help us score? you know, it's not that kind of thing, but you can score free wi-fi. can it help us win? hey, hey! we're all winners with the hilton

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impeachment trial in the u.s. senate. according to a new des moines register poll, 40% of the iowa voters say they have not made up their minds yet. that's, well, they have made up their minds. nearly have, 45 said they could be persuaded to vote for another candidate. if you put the numbers together, three fifths of iowa democratic caucus goers are up for grabs. it's an astounding thing this. with a neck and neck race, it could be anybody's game. for more i'm joined by lily adams and jamaal simmons. lily, you're fresh off the trail. >> yeah. >> what do you think? four people in their seats in the u.s. chamber. everybody wants to sit in that chamber, but they're stick there. >> yes. if it's two weeks to the caucus, you want to be in iowa talking to caucus goers, recruiting captains.

i was saying i think the hardest thing is they're going to be in washington d.c. and have to be silent. that's the worst thing you can ask for if you're a candidate. i do think iowa caucus goers will watch the proceedings and be wanting the response from the senators each night on your show they will want the response from these senators each night on your show and others. >> we will be grabbing them. >> so they will, you know, get to see them on the tv. >> that's right. >> there's no substitute for seeing them in person. >> we will have good guests next couple of weeks. >> they'll be available. >> they'll be available on ms and we will get our share at 7:00. >> what time, chris? >> yeah, this show. they're not allowed to have gadgets in there, no phones, nothing. they can't sneak calls to their people out, they can't do that, but they will be skyping once they are off, right? >> it is like high school detention. you have to sit there and pay attention to what is happening in class all day. i think it will be tough for a lot of the candidates. the one candidate who may -- the one senator who may not be in as bad a shape as others is bernie

sanders, only because his people are just so fervent and so tough. >> and that's 20% right there. >> and his numbers don't move that much. i'm not sure there's anything he could do that would sway people away from him. the problem is can he sway anybody and bring them toward him. i just don't know. >> i said the other day i think his anti-war position on vietnam and now against iran situation is ideological rallying cry the other candidates don't have right now. let me ask you about how they're going to use this. can they -- the senators' role in the trial as i understand it, you go to jail basically if you talk. it is a real quiet car. >> yeah, yeah. >> so they can't, like, raise interesting questions. in the supreme court you can do that. they can't put up their hand like bernie does. >> they won't be calling on them. roberts isn't going to be calling on each one by one, no. >> like kennedy did in the debate with nixon, very studious. you have to look pensive. that's all they can do, is show some physical connection. >> they'll come out of the

chamber and talk to a camera and give their analysis of what happened. i do think, you know, in a normal year this would be a horrible, horrible thing for candidates, but i do think, look, every democrat in the country, every person in this country will be paying attention to what is going on in this trial, is going to want to know what the candidates have to say. so they are going to be a part of the story going on. i think also for the candidates in iowa able to be there, they have to figure out how to be a part of the story as well that everyone will be paying attention to for the next couple of weeks. >> iowa has one hour or two, it is central time. they can get out of there at 6:00 -- >> 6:00 it is over. >> they have two hours to talk to people in the early evening and get prime at home. if they set up an operation with the camera, especially bernie or elizabeth come out and say i have to tell you what happened in the meeting today. >> people are going to listen. >> and surrogates will matter, too. you have to have a topnotch.

you know, somebody sitting with a big calendar, figuring out who we can slot here and there that will matter in the smaller communities. you have to have somebody present to get the organizing people of having people show up. >> how does it feel to be one of the people not drafted in the service like biden and like buttigieg? i mean they're out there, they get out there walking around saying, how come you're not fighting the war against trump? why are you out here? does it embarrass them a little to be able to skip this trial and be out there campaigning when the others are at work? >> oh, i don't think some. look, a candidates time is so valuable to be right there face-to-face with iowa voters, the population of the democratic caucus is no bigger than 300,000 people, so every last person is going to matter, especially when you are looking at ""the des moines register"" poll. everybody is up there next and neck at the top. again, if you had to put a gun to my head, i would pick to be in iowa. >> i'll put a gun to your head on a bigger issue. what do you think of the former vice president, joe biden, talking about kamala harris as a

possible running mate? >> look, there's no -- no secret i'm a big fan of senator harris. i think she would make a fantastic running mate for anybody. >> do you think she would accept? >> i don't know. you would have to have her on the show to ask. >> jamal, would she accept? >> oh, i don't know either. >> does anybody not accept? >> i don't think you ask if you don't know the person is going to accept. >> exactly. one thing that happened after the kamala harris race is there was a little -- i don't know what the reverse is of buyer's remorse, rejector's remorse. particularly in the african-american community that came through on twitter and other places that said, maybe we were too tough on her, we held her to a standard that was unacceptable. >> is that what you think? >> i think in some ways. >> i kept asking about her problem with people of color, and it was she was a prosecutor, that kind of thing. >> right. but nobody said that about amy klobuchar, nobody is wondering about her prosecutor's record. what happens if she gets on the national ticket? at that point i think there's a

rallying effect around her. people say, forget all about that is correct we have a chance to put this great woman in the white house. let's do it. >> bobby kennedy was a young prosecutor, joe kennedy was a prosecutor. it is not a bad way to bring yourself up. used to be the way you got to be governor of new york. >> now you kind of need a u.s. prosecutor. >> you should be doing this as a living. lilly adams who was there for kamala harris all of the difficult months on the campaign trail. jamal, great to have you on as always. >> thank you. my optimism for chief justice roberts, i may be alone. i don't think he will be a potted plant for three weeks. you are watching "hardball". e w. still looking for a dry skin solution?

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♪ call me an optimist, call me a romantic, but i have high hopes for chief justice john roberts. i have a reservoir about the optimism, he will serve more of a role in the senate impeachment trial than that of a potted plant. i believe he will be a true judge, deciding at one point the trial cannot be considered fair without calling witnesses. i can assume there will be opportunities for him to make that call. it may be in the case of a tie vote, it may be at a point in the presentation of the evidence where it becomes clear that the only way to weigh that evidence is with the fact witnesses as certified to the authenticity of certain documents and certain conversations. when there's an argument and the record shows who can resolve the matter, wouldn't prudence suggest that the fact witness be heard? the chief justice will be forced to decide whether to allow

himself to be part to a procedure that produces a coverup or to push procedures in order to hold a trial and pursue the truth. here is the justice and to the chief justice who can help deliver it, and that's "hardball" for now. stick with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. ♪ tonight on "all in" -- >> i could use some good legal advice. do you have good lawyer? >> president names his legal time. >> i could use good lawyers, right. >> as the pressure for witnesses build. >> everybody was in the loop. >> tonight what we've learned during the pelosi pause. >> i will send them over when i'm ready. >> how that can change the trial. >> he has been impeached. he has been impeached forever. >> then constitutional lawyer on the dershowitz defense of trump. >> it is a game changer. >> plus, exploring the jeffrey epstein connections to the trump legal team. >> find out the people that went to the island. >> and new alarms over who the president's attorney general is

choosing to investigate. >> he became that powerf