. we're following breaking news out of california, officials are now giving us the latest details on the helicopter crash that kobe bryant and his daughter gianna as well as seven others according to manifest were on board when that helicopter went down on a sunday morning, let's go straight to southern california. >> we have an update. we also have the l.a. county corner chief medical examiner dr. jonathan lucas is here and we hope our spanish outlets will be giving those remarks in es n

espanio espaniol. >> good evening, everyone e. tonight's press update will give you the next steps of this process, this investigation is going to be. and everyone's role. as you can imagine, this is going to be an extensive process. it's going to take not just days but weeks for us to get to recover from this. and as the l.a. county sheriffs department, we are working with our federal partners, ntsb and ncaa to assist, the faa is already on scene. they have provided valuable assistance, they've secured a 5 mile flight restriction for the area of the crash site and also 5,000-foot ceiling over it. so that is a great help in securing the crash site. as you may already heard from

the ntsb, they're already en route to our location to initiate the investigation. we want to thank our partners, the l.a. county fire department for their timely response putting out the fire and securing the area. and right now, it's, as you can imagine, it's a logistical nightmare in a sense, because the crash site, itself, is not easily accessible. however, we are now faced with well wishers and people mourning, who have descended on the area on the residential community and even the crash site, itself. we have to reiterate, it is off limits to everybody, except the first responders and investigators. so, we now have personnel deployed to get people away from there and they cannot access the crash sight. it is in very rough terrain, very dangerous, even in daylight, much less in the middle of the night so we want people to stay away. the location, itself, is in a residential community or

adjacent to a residential community and there are no businesses and we want to have the roads free for first responders and for investigators. if you do not have an identification that establishes you as a local resident, you will not be permitted access to the area. and there are road closures in effect right now. okay. those road closures are going to be, it's going to be las virgenes road between agoura road and las hills road are closed until further notice. additionally the north and southbound exits at loss virgenes road is closed -- las virgenes is closed until further notice. for committee members, there is a location, danza park, if they want to go there to express their condolences and support for our community in this time of tragedy. >> that is the place to go danza

park. i want to thank the coroner's office out here. you will hear from dr. jonathan lucas our chief medical examiner and we have the chp assisting with the road close years. the sheriffs department in addition to the santa monica mountain conserve antipark rangers. it's a very large group of people. they will be deployed throughout the night to secure the area. so we want to encourage people, if you are not a local resident, stay away from the area. so now i want to turn it over to dr. lucas. >> good evening. my name is jonathan lucas. i'm the chief medical examiner for the county of los angeles. first and foremost, i just want to offer our thoughts and condolences with all the families that of those who lost their lives in this tragic incident. today our department had multiple members of our special

operations response team that were on site. our recovery efforts began today, but as the sheriff mentioned, given the terrain and the condition of the site, we expect that this will probably take at least a couple, if not, a few days to complete the recovery. our priority is completing the recovery as quickly as possible, but safely and thoroughly and doing that to make sure our staff, are, like i said safe. our next priority after recovery is identification. and notification of the families. all of which we'll do as soon as we possibly can. i want to give a big thanks to the sheriff and his department, who has been extremely helpful

to our department, to this point. and i know they will be going forward. i also want to emphasize, that we'll be doing our work thoroughly, quickly and with the outmost compassion. so again, we really offer our condolences to the families at this point and i just want to reassure everybody, we're doing everything we can to confirm identificati identifications and give closure to the families involved. thank you. [ speaking spanish ] >> okay. so the sheriff right now is assumably, we assume at this moment now saying that which he said before but in spanish, the sheriff from l.a. county saying earlier that they have a corydon at the moment from the faa a

5-mile flight area, in addition to that the corydon above the crash site, 5,000 feet. again, we are watching the sheriff from l.a. county speaking earlier. he is now giving that in spanish. we will, of course, go back to them shortly if they get into a question and answer period, where they are able to give us more information potentially. then you have also heard from the chief medical examiner, jonathan lucas, dr. jonathan lucas, who only said that they are now on site and are beginning the process of identifying what we believe to be nine individuals who are on the manifest, a list of the passengers on that sikorsky helicopter that went down in the 9:00 a.m. hour in southern california, local time. as i said, this particular update coming from officials in the area, we want to get right back to them if they do now resume into the question and answer period, which they may or may not have. also on site all day covering

this breaking news story, nbc steve patterson and, steve, we weren't sure what they were going to cover at this hour. it's 8:00 local time and what might mean for their processees ongoing although they have 50-plus individuals on the ground there. it is, you can see right now in the dark of night and there is not much they can do. >> reporter: well, but it did answer one of the questions that you and i had, richard, which is are they going to work through the night? and at least at this point it sounds like they are. i mean, the activity. you can hear it. it's everywhere. there is a helicopter circling above. there are multiple trucks going back and forth. the scene as far back as i can see is lit up, not, obviously, all the way up to the hillside. but we have seen activity up there as well. i think one of the big effort take aways from this, too, was sort of the process and the recovery. >> steve, stand by they are not

back to the question and answers as we were promising our viewers. let's you and i listen in. >> reporter: sure. >> the process and fp as the days come, we'll have more information to lead to that. >> are the bodies staying in place? >> oh, no, as we, as quickly as we can, we will be removing individuals from the site president. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> we have made some transport, yes. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> at this point we're transporting them and we will be examining them in the days to come. >> [ inaudible question ] >> the identification is, can be a variety of things. finger prints obviously being the most important, are the quickest thing, but other types of methods we can use that are scientifically based, we will do

that if we need to. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i don't have those details. >> [ inaudible question ] . >> you know there was an issue of visibility and a low ceiling. the actual conditions at the time of impact, that is still yet to be determined. and we'll have that with the ntsb shortly. [ inaudible question ]. >> we had none operating there at the time. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> because of the weather. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> roughly, it's roughly a football field of debris.

>> [ inaudible question ] >> roughly 100 yard in each direction. >> [ inaudible question ] >> we received a 911 call at 0947 hours. that was the first call. then from there all the 911 lines light up at once, so we had a bunch of people call at once. >> [ inaudible question ] >> there were numerous witnesses that either heard or saw something. they were in the vicinity. yes. >> [ inaudible question ] >> well, we want all witnesses to be interviewed at first by the federal investigators. and once they're done, we interview them, then we can identify. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> that will be up to the faa and ntsb.

>> [ inaudible question ] >> i don't really know enough yet about condition at this point to answer that question. but i can tell that you we will use every method available as needed. >> is that it? >> all right. thank you all. >> thank you very much. >> again, some of the officials in southern california right now giving the very latest of what they know and as was set, there are numerous witnesses, there was a low ceiling as was also said and they have made some transport so far. steve patterson still there on the ground for us live and steve, we were talking about what officials might be doing there throughout the night.

will you describe to us what you were seeing and hearing? >> as that press conference was going on, the q&a phase started almost right on queue, there was a giant piece of machinery, the lights are on, it's difficult to see at this point it rolled up the hill. they will work through the night. all indications seem like that's a yes. >> that piece of it look itself like a dozeer rolled up. it looks like it's headed straight for the scene as we speak right now. think again the biggest take aways from that news update were the process, recovery, identification, notification. the fact is, it sound like this is a very treacherous area. it sound like it's very near to a residential area as we have been talking about throughout the day. so, obviously, lucky that it didn't hit any houses or get near to anything that was on the ground. nobody hurt on the ground. but you are talking as just

mentioned about a debris field about 100 yard so an entire football field of debris. that's on an extremely steep incline they have to get back into. so before even federal authorities can get in there for the investigation, this recovery process followed by the identification process, followed by the notification process all in concert has to take place as well. it sounds like it's going to be pretty difficult as all of these agencies now descend and coordinate on this one location, which, by the way, you know, people here, you know, sean lookers, fansings, remain here on scene looking up to all the activity that continues to happen, richard. >> that as they were quite methodical reporting, there steve. the coroner getting on location, potentially working with the team. now saying it'sing a to do a, b, c, not maybe d, e, f. we are also hearing the fbi will

also be involved. is that right, steve? >> reporter: yeah, we have heard rumblings. there were a number of fbi vehicles headed up to the scene as well. not sure of their role in this investigation. obviously, something like this you think faa, by the way, they're on the way, ntsb on the way taking that cross country trip to the scene behind me. local authorities corydoning off this area. the airspace restrictions in place. not sure what the fbi roam is in all this. obviously, all hands on deck to assist in what will be a widespread as heard in the press conference days maybe even weeks, maybe even months long investigation as to what happened in the crash. richard. >> steve patterson nbc news' correspondent oak. thank you so much for the latest from calabasas, california. not too far away from calabasas, i want to show you the scene at lax. those are familiar colors, if

you are an l.a. lakers fan, you can see how those led lights are not oscillateing, now gold, turning to purple and then a mix back and forth, an homage to number 24, to number 8 kobe bryant at the location that we were showing a moment ago, cal bas sass, california, where a helicopter, his helicopter appears went down and the death of kobe bryant, his daughter gianna and we believe to be seven more. joining us now to talk more about his legacy, nbc news correspondent stephanie stanton from los angeles. hey, stephanie. >> reporter: hi, richard. you know, the entire city of los angeles in mourning really the entire world in mourning. news of the death of kobe bryant sent shock waves across the world. and you know condolences have been pouring in all day long, from current lakers players, former teammates of kobe bryant, celebrities, the president, even former president obama offering

his condolences. you know kobe bryant was only 41-years-old. he was with the lakers 21 years. he led the team to five nba championships. he was also an oscar winner. just a cultural icon. but in his personal life, kobe was also a dedicated family man, a husband and a father to four daughter. he married his wife vanessa in 2001. the couple had those four girls of course, one died in the crash along with him, 13-year-old gianna now, back in 2017, the lakers held a halftime ceremony against the golden state warriors retiring his number 8 and number 24 jerseys. during his speech, kobe had a very special message for his daughters. take a listen. >> were and lastly, our daughters, natalia, diameant, biaka, and lastly our daughters,

you know, i hope that tonight is not, you know, you guys know that if you do the work, you work hard enough, dreams come true. you know that, we all know that. but hopefully when you get home tonight, it is the understanding that those times when you get up early and you work hard, those times when you stay up late and you work hard, those times when you don't feel like working, you are too tired, you don't want to push yourself but you do it anyway. >> that is actually the dream. that's the dream. it's not the destination. it's the journey. and if you guys can understand that, what you see happen, you won't accomplish your dreams. your dreams won't come true, something greater will. if you guys can understand that, then i'm doing my job as a father. >> and that speech, vanessa gave birth to a fourth daughter, baby

capri, she was born this past june and, of course, just such a poignant moment to see that and to think now that you know here you have vanessa with just three daughters remaining, of course, the loss of her husband, the loss of gianna, it's just such a tragic, tragic situation all across the board and you know as we have been seeing all day long, fans are in mourning. we're seeing fans here in los angeles gathering at several locations throughout the city. fans gathering at staples center, to remember him. of course, the grammys is going on there right now. we are seeing a lot of remembrances from the celebrities on the red carpet, at the grammys, at the awards show, itself. we have fans who are going to the crash site and of course authorities are advising against that. we also have fans who are going to mamba sports academy. so you just have people really just wanting to do whatever they can to remember kobe bryant, his

life, and his legacy and, you know right now my heart goes out to vanessa and his remaining daughters. they've got a tough and emotional road ahead. richard, we'll send it back to you. >> so as we know here, stephanie, kobe bryant was in his helicopter. he used a helicopter quite frequently to shuttle around the southland and if are you from the area or been there before, getting from one place to another, a helicopter as he has commonly done throughout the years, it's so important to be able to do the things. he had a packed schedule, even in retirement, certainly, maybe more in retirement. as a part of that he moved into a space well before his retirement of being very well known in pop culture. right? we know about the oscar he won. we understand that which he did in business. here's a little bit talking about what he did relevant to pop culture. kobe bryant, during "tonight" show appearance last year. let's take a listen.

>> the important thing you know in this story is, it's a story of self acceptance. we all have fares. we all have anxieties, things in nature. we can't ignore 'em. when you ignore 'em, you fester, they have control over you. these young men have to learn through magic is tore to have the courage to face those fears and be better basketball players. so that's the journey. >> that's right. good for you. >> stephanie and that's who he was. right. when we listen to his interview here, he became a -- he moved into a different chapter of his life. you can hear from the crowd, he certainly was loved. in the southland, what did he mane to local fans? >> reporter: you know, he meant so much to local fans here. i mean, think about it. he joined the team. he was 18. a teenager. he spent his entire career with the lakers. he will ed the team again to five nba championships. he was just -- he was los

angeles. he inspired so many people, so many young people, so many aspiring players and you know it's just so tragic because he was only 41-years-old when he retired. he retired on top. he was still at the top of his game. people have talked about his condition, his health. i mean, he's in peak performance for an athlete still, still he was right up until his death. so that's what makes it so tragic is he's led this storybook life. he was ready to give back even more than he already had. you know it's such a shame when you think about how much more he had left to give and how much more he had left to contribute and also to watch his daughters grow up. i mean, so sad, richard, when you think about it, baby capri is less than a year old. >> right. >> she'll never really know her father. >> stephanie, thank you for your reporting on this breaking story. and as we have just finished covering the very latest, we

continue to work overnight to find out how kobe bryant's helicopter went down. the death of kobe bryant, it's been an unfortunate sunday, a sad sunday. we will, of course, stay on top of this story. for now, though, we will join in progress trump on trial with my colleague chris hayes.

. tonight on the eve of the president's lawyers first full day of defense arguments, we have yet more evidence that directly undercuts donald trump's offense in the impeachment trial. it comes from jop bolton who is one of the central foreign policy figures in the administration until his abunt departure in september last year. here's the lead from the "new york times," i quote, president trump told his national security adviser in august that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to ukraine until officials there

helped with investigations into democrats including the bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript, former adviser john r. bolton. >> that is obviously an enormous, enormous single biggest piece of evidence since the president's call notes released. the news is based open a draft which according to "times" has been reviewed by multiple source, it has not been reviewed by npc news, jonathan schmidt broke the story, i've read this story several times, each sentence is criticaler than the last. what have you learned. >> reporter: well, the big question is what did bolton know? what would he testify to if he was suspend and had to answer questions before congress. bolton had said he was willing to testify. but we never knew what he had, what was behind that door. and what this story does is it

gives us a peek at some of that stuff. he's coming out with a book later this year. he for, the powerball lish it had to give it to the white house to review it for classified information. >> that happened several weeks ago. >> that gave the white house an idea of what he may say and look as we seen before that and certainly since that into the more heightened version since that, the white house does not want him to testify. they do not want him to be playing this out publicly and as we see tonight, it has pushed democrats even further to call for what they have been saying all along for him to testify, but it remains to be seen whether that will have impact on these republicans which have fallen into line throughout the impeachment trial. >> in terms of the concept of the manuscript as you were able to ascertain, bolton apparently -- pressed the president a dozen times i believe is the line with

pompeo, that was about releasing that aid and has a one on one, recounts a one on one meeting with trump in which trump tells him he doesn't want to release the aid until ukraine does the investigations, essentially? >>. >> reporter: correct. that's an august meeting that bolton recounts in which he's talking to trump about the aid. it's one of these attempts that bolton made to try and engage the president on the issue. as you pointed out, this was something that pompeo and esper were working on as well and it's in that conversation in august of last year that the president says that he wants to continue the freeze until he sees whether the ukrainians are cooperating with these investigations related to the clinton and the bidens. and, obviously, that, the tie between the aid and the investigations and the fruits of them or the announce. s of them, all these different things they sort of get moved into mumbo jumbo is the central

question of impeachment. should the president be removed for those conversations and those efforts? >> yes, we should say one of the chief defenses has been with the exception i guess of gordon sondland, that none of the testimony is coming directly from people with direct contact with the president. here we're saying john bolton has written a book in which he says the president told him i don't want to release the aid until they do the investigations, this manuscript is in the hands of the white house for security review. i want to read you a statement, several weeks ago, the ambassador sent a hard copy of the draft manuscript to the white house for pre publication review by the national security council. the ambassador has not passed that man yuscript to anyone els for review. what do you make of that statement? >> bolton's lawyer put out a letter he sent to the white

house on december 30th. that was a letter that accompanied the manuscript that was saying to the white house, look, we don't think there is classified information in here. but we know the typical protocols we have to provide it to you so you can look lou it an examine it. and we hope that you go through and do that in a timely manner. now, that was on december 30th. so that gives you an idea of when the white house learned about these contents and you know when they had a better sense. >> wow. >> of what he was going to testify to. >> michael schmidt, incredible reporting. this is going no, we'll see what it does tomorrow, this certainly has landed with a bang this evening. that understand so much. >> reporter: thank you for having me. coming up, presidential candidate elizabeth warren responds to thick brack story and what it means to the impeachment trial next. zblempblths l next zblempblth thousands of women with metastatic breast cancer,

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so we learn tonight,

national security adviser john bolton told him he would not release the money to ukraine unless they manufactured dirt, in september, john bolton came out and said he is willing to testify. senate republicans have already voted once not to call him for testimony. they will have another chance to vote on calling john bolton and other witnesses after initial arguments wrap up likely this week. this news comes the day after the president's lawyers brief their defense ahead of arguments tomorrow. one of the as far as deciding the president's fate, senator elizabeth warren she is also running for the president on weekends when she can get away from senate chambers. she joins us from iowa, where yesterday she won the coveted ep doorsment of the des moines register. how are you doing tonight? >> i'm doing great tonight.

>> what do you make of this news? it's bizarre in many ways. i'm not sure what john bolton is up to, frankly, the question in terms of your body which is whether to call witnesses tore this trial. what does this news do to the trial that you are certainly currently sitting as a juror in? >> so look, we start out saying this is a trial. the constitution says it is the senate that tries an impeachment case. and that means witnesses and documents. do you know anybody that thinks you do trials without witnesses? if you have some to produce? and the republicans were all saying, no, no, no so then on saturday, they kind of put out their basic argument. man now does bolton really put it to the republicans. because a big part of their argument was, hey, this is all hearsay and supposition and people speculating. there's nobody who really has any direct evidence that the president was doing a quid pro

quo saying i will only release the aid if we can get ukraine to dig up dirt on some of my, on my political rival. well, now we know. john bolton says, he wants people to look at him. because he's waving his hand pretty aggressively from yes. >> saying i have that information. so, how are you going to play this one, republicans? you can't say nobody has direct evidence while there is somebody out there saying i have the direct evidence. sounds to me like we're going to have a witness. >> i mean, i imagine, do i understand this correctly, after there's two more stages to get to under the organizing resolution of mitch mcconnell before he would have a vote before there could be witnesses, which is the president's lawyers make their arguments. >> that i have 24 total hours and used up two, then there is 16 hours of questions and then a vote. is that how this works? >> that's exactly right.

then after everyone has spent all of those hours talking about the case and putting forward the evidence that was produced in the house, then only then will there actually be a vote on whether or not to produce the witnesses? in other words, once the trial has pretty much been argued and they hope it is over, then they will address the question of whether or not there ought to be witnesses. this is -- this is not what a trial is about. look, for people wherever you are on the political spectrum, what the constitution requires is a trial in the senate. and that means fair trial in the senate and that means you bring in the evidence. if any president, not just trump, but any president can say, hey, i'm just drawing a circle here and nobody gets to go and testify and no documents are produced, what does it mean then to have accountability for a president? however would a senate be able to have an impeachment trial?

so, you know, this is the constitution that they're starting to pull apart here. >> youer in iowa tonight. you got the des moines iowa endorsement. >> yes, i did from it's a very big deal in the iowa primary. you have been using this phrase, unfurled a version in the last debate, you talked about you and amy klobuchar never losing an election, you have been using this phrase women win. i wonder whether you feel the data, your campaign, what you feel from voters says that there is some group of voters out there who like you but who are worried essentially that there is a kind of like gender tax that female candidates pay. >> that they, you know, there is a lot of pa try arcy and sexism in america. it hurts candidates, are you trying to reassure people that are thinking that way? >> well, people are asking the question. so if they're asking the question and i think the right thing to do is let's just

address it head on. let's not try to do it kind of around the fringes. let's not try to do it through proxy. let's just take it straight on and look at the data. the world changed when donald trump got elected. this is not 2016. when donald trump got elected, what's happened since then? is that women candidates have outperformed men candidates in competitive races. and look at 2018. we took back the house. we took back state houses around the country. state legislathe laiegislatures women candidate and women who said i am in this fight all the way. women who came in, helped make this happen. now, don't get me wrong, lots of good men in it, too, but lots of women who gave this list. so look at the data. you know, look, i'm the only person who is running, who has beaten an incumbent republican any time in the last 30 years.

and we've got a lot of evidence, women can make this happen, so, women win. let's keep that in mind. let's level that playing field. now, let's talk about some of the issues. how we get people excited. how we get them out there. how we pull our party together and how we pull in some republicans. that's how it is we're going to win. >> i want to ask that question. you said how to pull our party together, do you worry? look i think some team e people make too much out of the natural conflict in a primary. it's an election. that's what conflict is about. do you worry about that? is that something in the back of your mind like the divisions here or the things that are happening between different candidates or different camps will make it harder to unify? >> look. what i care about is we got to win. we got to beat donald trump. i'm just going to be flat about this. whoever our democratic nominee, i'm all in, i'm going to help make this happen. but the best way for us to win

is we got to pull our party together. if you know how we best do that? let's not have the same old arguments we've had for a long time. let's look at what's really broken in this country. we've got an america right now that works great for rich folks. it works great for giant corporations. it works great for lobbyists. it works great for big drug companies and big oil companies that want to drill everywhere, it's working grit for them. it's just not working for the rest of america. we need to draw the sharp contrast with donald trump. he is running the most corrupt administration in history. what i want to do is i want to get there and make that fight over corruption. i want to show how it is that we as democrats are going to be in this fight and we are willing to take on the corruption head on. that's something our whole party can get behind. wealth tax, our whole party,

expanding social security, our whole party, let's do it. >> you will be on flight through a corruption trial tomorrow morning. so i'll let you go. >> are you exactly right, though, do keep in mind. we got this ambassador right at the heart of this he paid a million dollars to donald trump's inauguration campaign. it's corruption. we need to call it out. that's how i'm going to beat donald trump. >> senator elizabeth warren, democratic candidate for president, thanks for making some time tonight. >> you bet. good to see. >> you coming up, the trump defense team is set to bring their first full days of arguments tomorrow, how these new allegations changed the landscape of the impeachment trial after this. ged the landscape of the impeachment trial after this [alarm beeping]

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. to talk more about the resumption of the impeachment trial tomorrow, i am joined by the former acting solicit or general in the obama administration and the author of impeach, the case against donald trump and co-author of the book "to end a presidency, the power of impeachment." the subject of this interview has changed quite a bit in the last 24 hours, thanks to this "new york times" story. i want to get your reactions to it. it seems to me, the most significant piece of everyday since the call notes were released, neil, what do you think about the import of this bolton manuscript? >> it's hugely devastating for the president. so article 1 of the impeachment against president trump is abuse of power. and the allegation is that he tried to cheat in the 2020

election and pressure the ukrainian government to get dirt on joe biden and the bolton revelations today, if true, and, of course, we haven't seen the book, if true, corroborate all of that story and say that trump did pressure trump did pressure ukrainians and withheld the aid in order to get dirt on biden. the second allegation is the second article of impeachment is obstruction of congress. and again, here now we have the president, it looks like people in the white house knew these were bolton views an yet they went on television as recently as yesterday denying that the there was anyone with any firsthand nong that corrobora corroborateed this ukrainian account. and coming on top of the lev parnas revelations. this isn't even the last one in the last three days. i think the trajectory is incredibly bad for the president. his story has fallen apart. >> professor, what do you think? >> i certainly agree with that.

the president's story has fallen apart. there is an avalanche of news. i'm sure there will be more. and adam schiff made the point that america deserves a fair trial, she's worth it, now we know exactly what that means. a fair trial requires that all of this new evidence be vetted at the senate itself, not simply in books that are come out after the trial is over. and one more basic point. the real significance of all that news is that it puts even more pressure on the bizarre argument that i think we're going to hear tomorrow from some of the president's lawyers that even if everything that is charged in these articles of impeachment is true, that is, even if it is true that the president solicited help from a foreign power, pressured that power, withheld $400 million of

federally appropriated money to leverage that power in order to give him dirt on his opponents. even if all that is true, it isn't impeachable, and you have to really listen hard to that crazy argument, because it may take the form that it says well, abuse of power isn't impeachable, because it's such a vague, open-ended phrase. but what you have to do is look under the book cover and see what abuse of power is really being charged here. what's being charged is not just abstract abuse of power, not just abstract obstruction of congress, but a series of concrete actions, and if these lawyers tell us that even if the president did all of that, it's just fine, he can't be impeached for it, then that sends a terrible signal to every future president. it says every future president can use the power of his office in order to get reelected. that's a disaster for a

democracy. >> neil, i keep wondering. i mean, lawrence talked about the pressure this puts on both the republicans for witnesses and also the pressure on that argument. right? that once the facts have been essentially conceded. the thing is what is john bolton doing here? this is not a legal question, but is there any way -- it seems insane to be in a situation where i guess if we don't get enough votes in the senate, well, we'll wait until the book comes out and see if the president did what he's accused of. >> yeah. no. i think that bolton is really trying to signal he wants to testify. he said that, and now the leaks from the book really underscore why i think he has to testify. there is no serious real argument on the other side. and so i expect the senators at this point to want witnesses, and even if they don't, as i'll argue in tomorrow's new york times the chief justice can easily subpoena the folks on his own and it can't even be overrule bid the republicans and

the senate. and this is a chief justice who believes very much in fairness, understands what a trial is. he's never seen a trial without witnesses. nobody has in america. and so i think that there are multiple avenues now for witnesses to come forward which is obviously the true and right thing to do as professor tribe just said. >> professor, it also seems untenable as a political matter. maybe not. i mean, i think they all think they should hang together, they should surely hang separately, but to keep getting evidence spoolging out. it's going to come out. adam schiff keeps saying this, it's going to come out one way or the other. do you want to be part of the coverup? >> i'm afraid some of the republicans are actually in a position where they would rather have it come out after. >> yes. >> because if it comes out before, they're going to have a hell of a time justifying voting to acquit, and i do agree with neil that the chief justice can play a crucial role here. whether it's true that the senate can't overrule him is a

difficult question. certainly if the president tries to gag john bolton and tries to invoke a phony rif ledprivilege doesn't apply, there isn't going to be a beeline to the district court down the street, because the chief justice of the united states is sitting behind them is sitting behind them and can make a ruling. they're going to be under a lot of pressure to pay attention to somebody like the chief justice of the united states. so i think the whole landscape is dramatically different right now, and we really are going to have an extraordinary week ahead of us. >> briefly, neil, do you think you'll see the white house lawyers tomorrow lean on the so what if he did argument? >> i think they will. i think there's little credence to that argument. it falls apart. we can't have presidents trying

to cheat in elections, particularly with the help of foreign governments and giving the foreign government blackmail over the president. it's insane. i expect we'll hear it tomorrow along with a rush to try to get this thing over with because these lawyers are so afraid new information will come out. they're trying to rush this thing through to stop. >> the clock is ticking in the background. bolton is going to be outside the white house with a bull horn before the week is over. thank you both. i appreciate it. that does it for me. we have more coverage live on msnbc coming up next, stick around. f blowers. you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. and you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. make ice. making ice. but you're not mad because you have e*trade which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence.

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