they're searched with social security. the younger candidates or the candidates running for the first time including buttigieg and klobuchar, yang, steyer, those are searched along with climate. >> all right. mike allen. thank you. reading axios a.m. in a little bit. sign up for the newsletter at signup @axios.com. that does it for me on this thursday morning. i'm yasmin vossoughian. "morning joe" starts right now. we do have people that work so hard and senators, and make i'm being nice to them because i want their vote. does that make sense? senator marsha blackburn. where's marsha? john bozeman, thank you. mike braun, become a big fixture on television and doing a great job. west virginia, great place.

senator bill cassidy, senator, thank you very much. john cor john cornyn. thank you. your poll numbers are looking good, john. tom continue. where's tom? kevin cramer? thank you, kevin. ted cruz, boy has he been -- where is ted? and he's dying to get back there and ask those questions. >> steve, my friend since the beginning. joni ernst. the tag team with chuck grassry and joni ernst. senator deb fischer. where's lindsey graham? may be having a news conference. senator josh -- where's john hoveman, you've been so great. thank you, john. senator james lankford, a terrific person. kelly loughler. congratulations, kelly. jerry moran, another one, thank you, jerry and another one, james risch and mike rounds, where is mike?

mike, thank you. tim scott. mr. opportunity's own and i think he's over there fighting saying, just read the transcripts. thom tillis, doing pretty well, what i'm understanding and roger wicker. rick scott has been so incredible. the rest of you i don't have to bother with. i'm sorry. you know the way it works in life. right? >> ah. just your totally normal, completely norm's run of the mill between a defendant and a jury in the middle of a trial. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday january 30th, and with us we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, nbc news national security analyst jeremy bash is with us. former chief of staff to the dccc and former director of strategic communications for hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, adrienne ed rod is with us and senior writer at politico and co-author

of "the playbook" jake sherman. an msnbc political contributor and along with willie and me, joe has what i had yesterday. taking a sick day and should be back tomorrow, but willie, we've now just are four dais way from iowa where we'll be at java joe's and new polling shows two candidates in a dead heat, plus the key moments from the impeachment trial yesterday including the defense team's argument that quid pro quo isn't impeachable, even if it happened. but first, willie, the uncertainty on capitol hill ahead of the expected vote tomorrow on whether to call witnesses. >> well we saw some of that yesterday when the president was at that big trade deal signing, and taking a whip count out in public and had them stand and raise their hands. republican sources telling nbc news they expect now republicans do have enough votes to block senate testimony with democrats possibly coming up one vote shy of the four republican votes needed. yesterday two vulnerable

senators up for re-election. cory gardner and martha mcsally said they will vote against calling new witnesses. senator pat toomey of pennsylvania who reportedly proposed trading one republican witness for a democratic witness now says he is "very, very skeptical any new testimony would change this mind." mitt romney, definite yes. wants to see witnesses. susan collins says she will likely vote yes to have witnesses. lisa murkowski privately was with mitch mcconnell refused to share thoughts publicly despite saying tuesday she may want to hear from john bolton. another republican to watch, lamar alexander of tennessee. retiring after this term and a former chief of staff tells nbc news "you cannot predict him." if the senate does vote for no witnesses, we are now told senator mcconnell will immediately call for a final vote meaning the impeachment

proceedings could end tomorrow with a likely acquittal for the president. so jake sherman, watching every one of these votes very closely for a long time. is there a fourth vote out there in play, or does leader mcconnell have this locked up at this point? >> this is about as clear as mud to me at this point, and i will say of all the things i've covered on capitol hill, this is the least obvious what's going to happen. we've not seen a fourth vote. it's very difficult to understand where this fourth vote is going it come from. the thing that has struck me over the last couple of days is, there's fwhbeen no drum beat. we've seen narrative changing stories getting ahoddle j.ld of bolton's book and not seen a jail break of witnesses as we thought we'd see under these circumstances. so the longer mitch mcconnell is able to hold on to his conference, prevent this jail

break when he has been able to do the less likely it is we will see witnesses and the more likely it is he will be able to take this to a final vote on friday what about lamar alexander, jake? the one senator, as i said, he's retiring. he may decide this is the time to make some statement for history. what can we read into his thinking, if we can? >> two things. one, obviously he has the seat of howard baker, who played a critical role to say the least in the last, two impeachments ago of a president. number one. number two, understand about lamar alexander, he's extraordinarily close with mitch mcconnell. very, very close with mitch mcconnell. a longtime ally, lieutenant of his, and what republicans are saying, again, not me saying it, what republicans keep saying is if we vote for witnesses, where is it going to end? once we hear from john bolton are we going to need to hear from ten more people? are we going to remove this president from office? if not, why open this door?

listen, lindsey graham has said time and time again that he anticipates there will be 51 votes to call hunter biden, to call adam schiff, to call the whistle-blower. that's the question people are starting to ask themselves is, do we want to go down this snake pit? sino that's a controversial thing to saand i'me relaying my reporting from the capitol. that's playing into a lot of these senators thinking. >> game this out for us. say the final legal arguments end later tonight and then there's a vote on witnesses. is it possible that by tomorrow night the impeachment trial is over and we've turned the corner on this major question and major moment in history? >> more than possible, i would say likely, because there will be four hours of debate on witnesses, on getting more witnesses and documents that will come to a vote. from there, the senate will vote and likely he will be acquitted. absent some sort of surprise that is so huge and monumental

we're not seeing it at this point. >> yeah. mika, we have mitt romney, sort of been there from the beginning say, yes, i want to see witnesses. >> yeah, mitt. >> susan collins inched that way. lisa murkowski, yes, probably hear from john bolton. jake points out, there may not be that fourth voice that will cross over. >> willie, you might have remembered or seen on the show the other day joe's epic takedown of the republican confederacy of dunces and in a new "washington post" column this morning joe described president trump's impeachment defense team as a confederacy of dunces. indeed yesterday during the q&a portion of the trial, we saw more examples of this. one case in point, deputy counsel pat philbin claimed it is within the president's rights to ask a foreign government for information about a political rival as long as the information is credible.

>> congress has specified specific ways in which foreigners cannot be involved in elections. foreigners can't vote in elections, there are restrictions on foreign contributions to campaigns and things like that. mere information is not something that would violate the campaign finance laws, and if there is credible information, credibility information of wrongdoing by someone who is running for a public office, it's not campaign interference for credible information about wrongdoing to be brought to light. if it's credible information. so i think that the idea that any information that happens to come from overseas is necessarily campaign interference is a mistake. >> democrats were dumbfounded by that argument. >> this body should not accept nor should the american people accept the idea put out by the president's lawyers today that it is perfectly fine,

unimpeachable for a president of the united states to say, hey, russia, or, hey, ukraine, or hey, china, i want your help in my election, because that's the policy of the president. we're calling that policy now. it's the policy of the president to demand foreign interference and withhold money from an ally at war unless they get it. that's what they called policy. i'm sorry. that's what i call corruption. and they can dress it up and in fine legalese, but corruption is still corruption. >> i could not abide the president's counsel saying foreign interference in a sense is okay if it doesn't fall into the classic definition of a campaign contribution, and the whitewash doj investigation somehow makes anything and everything the president's done in terms of soliciting foreign interference legitimate. the president's counsel in a

sense gave a green light for that kind of behavior to continue. i hope and flpray cooler heads will prevail but a dramatic step backwards in terms of protecting the integrity of our election. >> audible gasps when the president's counsel tried to claim that it's proper for anyone running for office in the united states to take information from a foreign country. >> this idea that you would take information from a foreign government seeking to impact an election and then weaponize that or use that because it may be credible is -- i've just never heard anything like that. i think it's absolutely unconscionable and i think we're in new territory. >> ah. jeremy bash, ukrainians died in the middle of this so-called drug deal that was going down at aid was being held up. i have to say that at this

point, what the republican defense was saying is that it is okay to hurt our friends and feed the interests of our enemies. am i correct? >> that's right, mika. that's exactly right. in fact, they're going a step farther and they're saying that going forward it's perfectly okay for this president or any candidate for office to accept foreign support in an american election, and that not only obviously creates a owing relationship, indebted relationship, between a president and a foreign power which is intolerable from the abject of national security bud undermines the american voter, foundational for our democracy. a staep furthep further, they a president can do anything as long as it's not a clear -- of our statute.

give away a nuclear weapon if it's policy. i don't see any american president giving away nuclear secrets to an international -- >> bring in danny cevallos, what a president, they can ask a foreign leader for information against a political opponent doesn't represent the foreign campaign contribution. in other words, nothing wrong with what the president did in that phone call. >> if you look at philbin's words, he describes a situation that could hypothetically be true but that hypothetical does not apply to these facts. he's saying if a foreign country broadcasts out or tweets out this information and a political campaign just receives it passively, can they use it? is that okay? that's the hypothetical that might possibly be acceptable under his fact situation. that's not the facts here and why everybody's in an uproar

about it, because even if that were technically possibly true, it's not this. this is different. this is not mere information. the receipt of mere information may be true in some other situation, but this was not mere information, and this was not passively receiving. this was requesting. this was asking for an announcement of an investigation. these are our facts that don't fit in philbin's theory that might technically be innocent. that's why everyone is flipping out. >> you know, willie, we've been listening to pat philbin and we're going to be hearing from alan dershowitz, his theory of what a president can and cannot do. a president can pretty much do anything if he thinks it's in the national interests, but the sad aspect of this whole spectacle, at least to me watching it, is it's a continual distortion of history. led by mitch mcconnell. i would submit that when history

is indeed written about this particular period of american life and american politics, that mitch mcconnell's role in this distortion will be far larger than donald trump's. and it begins with merit garland, excluding him from the court, not holding hearings. it continues with him having a full body of members of the united states senate. 53 of them, republicans, most of them doing his will, submitting to his will, and not having a trial, a legitimate trial with witnesses for the american people to make up their minds about what indeed happened, and then the distortion and the definition of what a president is able to do. it's just incredible. >> you mentioned alan dershowitz. jeremy alluded to this jaw-dropping argument dershowitz made defending the president say effectively the president can do anything he wants to get re-elected, because he believes it's in the national interests. here's what he said.

>> the argument has been made that the president of the united states only became interested in corruption when he learned that joe biden was running for president. let's assume hypothetically that the president was in a second term. and he said to himself, you know, joe biden's running for president. i really should now get concerned about whether his son is corrupt, because he's not only a candidate, and he's not running against me. i'm finished with my term, but he could be the president of the united states, and if he's the president of the united states, and he has a corrupt son, the fact that he's announced his candidacy is a very good reason for upping the interest in his son. if he wasn't running for president, he's a has-been. he's the former vice president of the united states. okay. big deal. but if he's running for president, that's an enormous, big deal. so the difference the house managers would make is whether the president's in his first term or second term. whether he's running for

re-election or not running for re-election, i think they would have to concede he was not running for re-election this would not be a corrupt motive, a mixed motive but leaning on the side of national interest. if he is running for re-election, suddenly that turns it into an impeachable defense. >> thank you. >> there are three possible motives that a political figure can have. one a motive in the public interest and the israel argument would be in the public interest. the second is in his own political interests and the third which hasn't been mentioned, would be in his own financial interests. i want to focus on the second one for just one moment. every public official that i know believes that his election is in the public interest. and mostly you're right. your election is in the public interest. and if a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the

public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment. we may argue that it's not in the national interests for a particular president to get re-elected, but for it to be impeachable you would have to discern that he or she made a decision solely on the basis of as the house managers put it corrupt motives, and it cannot be a corrupt motive if you have a mixed motive that partially involves the national interest, partially involves electoral and does not involve personal pecuniary interests. >> danny, a lot in there. good luck with that. let me start at the end. i want to repeat this line. "if the president does something that he thinks will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment" raising the question, then, under this logic, by this argument, is there anything the president

could not do? of course he believes it's in the public interest to get himself re-elected. >> right. alan dershowitz is a law professor and appellate lawyer. an effective appellate lawyer and a classic stepping-stone argument. start with the proposition in the public interest tlherefore t can't be corrupt? what law professors get students torturing them to get them thinking hard. now in the circle of public interest. so then as long as the president believes subjectively that his actions are in the public interest, then it's acceptable. and if he believes his campaign, his re-election falls in that bucket of the public interest r err go, this is not abuse of power. the kind of law school presentation that will leave students scratching their heads

and maybe murmuring to themselves, i guess i can see that happening. the problem, it's not an effective argument to a jury, to the public, maybe even to the senators. this fact situation just doesn't work. >> the only thing that alan loves more than the law is the tv camera. that's pretty clear, but jeremy bash, listening to alan describe what a president can do and not get impeached. back to your suggestion giving away nuclear codes to russia if a president declared to himself 2 w it was in the national interest. thing tlix. thi like that, or if he ordered u.s. marshal service to pick up every muslim in the country and get them out of the country. all of that, i guess, decrees it to be in the national interest is okay? >> yeah. or decides to disband the united states army, or if he decides to require all school children to

show up on the white house lawn every morning and sing an anthem to him. i mean, there are infinite number of examples of a president misusing the office of the presidency and violating his oath of office. that endanger national security and undermine our constitution. the framer included in the constitution this one critical check on presidential power. not a vote of no confidence. not a disagreement on policy. it's a statement that when the president misuses his power for his own personal benefit, the fact pattern we have here, impeachment is the proper remedy. and it's extraordinarily rare, it's extraordinarily sacred in the sense that you don't want to take out that weapon on any policy distinction or difference, but this is a case where the president's motive was solely to benefit himself so we don't even have to get to the dershowitz argument about mixed motive. >> yeah. the ultimate message to the american people is get over it. adrienne elrod, as a top-level

campaign strategist, how do you run against this? and who's doing the best job at that? >> well, you know, mika, i really this may not be what a lot of people want to hear. if this is over friday, over in a couple day, democratic candidates just have to move on. the democrats did very well in the 2018 midterm election. historic wins up and down the ballot focussing on kitchen table issues the american people care about. lower health care costs. better education, better jobs. that is how they want to go. move on that. when it comes to some of these senators, mika in very tough re-elections, cory gardner. martha mcsally. susan collins. all eyes will be on them. i guarantee you that the democratic senatorial campaign committee, other outside groups involved and most importantly the democratic challengers to these republican incumbents in tough elections will have a hay day with this. so much that you can throw into

an ad. that is where the real stakes will be. >> i need to talk more about this, because bloomberg's approach could be ultimately quite a smart one or lucky one. still ahead on "morning joe," one of the impeachment prosecutors congressman jason crow joins us. plus we've got the first look at two brand new campaign ads. this morning, one from joe biden and one from mike bloomberg. you'll want to stick around for those. "morning joe" is back in a moment. apps are used everywhere... except work. why is that? is it because people love filling out forms? maybe they like checking with their supervisor to see how much vacation time they have. or sending corporate their expense reports. i'll let you in on a little secret. they don't. by empowering employees to manage their own tasks, paycom frees you to focus on the business of business. to learn more, visit paycom.com

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iowa caucuses are this next monday evening, and i'm really interested to see how this discussion today informs and influences the iowa caucus voters, those democratic caucusgoers. will they be supporting vice president biden at this point.

>> i'm rick scott one of the jurors in the u.s. senate. i'd lyke to thank the democrats for badly botching this impeachment charade and spending so much time in a cover-up for joe biden. the real story here is the corruption joe biden got away with. vice president biden threatened a foreign country and forced them to fire a prosecutor who was investigating a company paying his son. biden got away with it and his son got away with it. >> iowa republican senator joni ernst on sunday. joni, shhhh. don't say it out loud. followed by a new campaign ad by republican rick scott of florida. yesterday the former vice president responded. >> joni comes out and says that, "iowa caucuses are this next monday." excuse me. "iowa caucuses are this next

monday and i'm really interested how this discussion today," meaning discussion an me on the floor senate "how this discussion today informs and influences iowa caucusgoers. will there be supporting vice president biden at this point?" kind of subtle. huh? kind of subtle. >> and now we got a guy, a multi-millionaire with an interesting past. a senator from florida sitting in washington, has decided to start running negative ads against joe biden just days before the iowa caucus. what do you think that's about? look, it's simple. they're smearing me to try to stop me and they know if i'm the nominee i'm going to beat donald trump like a drum. [ cheers and applause ] so, folks -- now all caucusgoers can have a two-for. one, you can not only ruin

donald trump's night if i win the caucus you can ruin joni ernst night at well. >> okay. adrienne elrod i was going to ask how do you run against that stupidity of joni ernst and the other, but joe biden just showed us. first of all -- >> yeah. >> -- it's funny. it's so stupid it's funny, and i love the little chuckle and then bring it right back to trump. i do think one of the challenges of this campaign is that the republican defense on so many levels is so brazenly out there. so brazenly shallow. you know, as joe pointed out this week, it's stupid. they're stupid. we know this. you know this. most people know this. at this point, they're not focused on the law, the constitution or doing anything right. they're trying to get through the dishonest way, and it's almost hard to call it out, because it's so obvious. >> yeah. mika, it's almost -- it's so obvious if you are a campaign strategist or working on a

campaign trying to figure how to hand many this, it's kind of a strange thing to figure out because it's so obvious. >> astounding. >> it's astounding. also keep in mind we talked about many time on this show, over 50% of americans still want donald trump removed, impeached, removed from office. also you have to bear that in mind. it is important i think to do exactly what joe biden did. if you go on the defense all the time, mika, as you know, it's not going to help you. i think joe biden had the perfect tone yesterday at that event in sioux city basically saying i'm not sitting here trying to analyze senator ernst words here. i'm going to read them verbatim and tell you what she said and you be the judge of that. the perfect way to handle a situation like that. >> how about a senator from florida not up for re-election until 2024 sitting in an audio booth like he's cutting a new record putting ads out in iowa with factually challenged

attacks on joe biden. a spade of new polls out there now all over the place showing a clustering of four and say it, too, amy klobuchar up in that group now in double digits in a lot of these polls. what are you seeing, hearing in these numbers? a few of those senators obviously sitting in washington right now who might not mind being released if this trial, impeachment trial does ends friday. spend a couple of days in iowa before the vote. what's your read on this as these numbers are so tight in iowa? >> yeah. certainly a cluster at the top. i would say that senators from the ones i've talked to are very eager to get out the door and back to iowa. able to friday night, there are private airplanes they all, many of them take and can get to to iowa late friday night early saturday morning. the big thing is, a lot of republicans, trump-aligned republicans have said to me is they believe joe biden is underestimating the bite of the burisma attack from the president and from republicans. i think obviously the white

house believes joe biden is a strong candidate and could assemble a coalition should he get passed iowa and new hampshire, south carolina and into the, and he's the nominee. i think that they believe that joe biden doesn't understand the burisma attack, that donald trump is able to go out there and say, this guy's son was making $100,000, whatever it is a month. had no experience. well, joe biden had the portfolio. god, i've heard that 1,000 times on capitol hill this week and i don't think that message will go away, and i don't think in a lot of democrats don't think it's the prevailing narrative on capitol hill that the biden campaign has not tackled this issue head-on. instead, very defensive about it. what i'm really curious to see. if he gets out of monday night into tuesday, the president and his attack dogs are going to chomp at the bit at the burisma issue becoming the narrative they push forth on joe biden. >> hmm. jake sherman, thank you very much. and coming up, a

controversial middle east peace plan. a brexit deadline of tomorrow, and the global implications of the growing coronavirus outbreak. going around the world with richard haass, next on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug

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joining us now president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray." richard haass, thanks for going around the world with us. start with president trump's middle east peace plan. go. >> what the administration has done is working very closely with israel and with the prime minister there, has rolled out a peace plan that in principle would create a palestinian state on roughly 70% or so of the lands that israel has occupied since the six-day war in 1967,

but israel would keep saab r sovereignty over all of jerusalem, palestinians create a capital just on the outskirts most settlements remain, palestinian refugees not able to return. none of this could happen unless the palestinian authority somehow managed to disarm or essentially get rid of hamas in gaza. palestinians have said they'll reject this. they don't see this as the basis of talks. some of the arab governments saying, not so fast. rejection hasn't served you well historically. if you're asking me what's going to happen, ultimately, whoever wins the israeli election in early march, they're going to move to unilaterally begin to put some of this into place and this plan will not be accepted by the plialestinians but this will become, if you look at the maps, something close to it will become the new status quo in the middle east. >> richard, jeremy bash. ask you two questions about that middle east plan.

first, even president obama talked about land swaps. in other words, where jewish communities were living in the west bank, those might be under land given over to palestinians. is this much different? you mentioned, interesting, governmenting like the em raira government and expressed solidarity with palestinians. is something changes in the middle east? >> there are land swaps but the quantity and quality of the land, what the palestinians have to give up and what they would get is very different. it's not at all even. i think the second point you raise is the big point. what this shows is the fact that three arab governments sent ambassadors to the white house ceremony the other day. the saudis have been open-minded in their statement. this suggests the region has moved on. that the big concern in the region is not this, up to a point. much more the threat or challenge posed by iran.

so the palestinians can expect the kind of rallying around effect they've had historically, and i think that's a lot of the logic behind the plan that essentially the region has moved on. to use the old line the israeli foreign minister once said the palestinians never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity. and what they're basically saying is we're going do this with or without you. the palestinians are not getting the sort of backing by the arab world that they used to have. >> richard, brexit arrives tomorrow finally. what does the arrival of brexit do to the european union as a cohesive political economic unit? and what does it do to the european union in terms of now it will be without one of its principle and largest trading partners great britain? >> what we're having essentially now is brexit's going forward. still don't know the terms. almost like the divorce is happening but we don't know the settlement. the goal, december 31st. we don't know what the economic arrangements will be. obviously it's bad for the eu.

contributes to the sense of the loss of momentum and the pendulum swung from brussels and central rules to national rules and brexit is most dramatic but seeing it elsewhere in places like france. a real pushback against the european project. leaves britain weaker and we don't know what the nature of the new relationship, if you will, the postup in, what it's goiit's -- the post-up in. >> go china. the number of coronaviruses in mainland china outnumbered entire number of infections the country saw during the sars outbreak in 2002 and 2003. how concerned should be be in the united states? >> we should be. numbers are way low. i don't know anyone hoon believes these sticks. my guess, thousands more cases and probably more deaths thatten

thatten -- than we know of. a problem for china economically and politically. how the leadership responds. could be a turning point in chinese history if this leadership doesn't get in front of this, not seen as competent and transparent about it. the rest of the world is beginning to see flights canceled, tourism canceled. this will slow the global economy. here, we getter get our act in order. we don't know how fast the vaccine will be ready. a little progress in science, but we better make sure our hospitals, our first responders, essentially we are ready for the possibility of a pandemic. long a nightmare. the warning time. use it to get prepared. >> finally, richard, talk about iran. now we know from the pentagon that 50 u.s. service members diagnosed with tbi. traumatic brain injury after the strike on the base in iraq. the president dismissed those as headaches. there were real injuries in that attack much as the president tried to downplay them.

>> offensive to call them headaches. vfw and other groups pushed back. the iranians weren't at careful as a lot of people thought making sure there weren't attacks. willing to use missiles in a way that could have risked a lot of americans deaths and a lot more escalation. the seconda, the fact we didn't respond we don't really want an con conflict, even they sent more troops to the region it is not in the playbook of this administration to get involved in an escalation in that part of the world. again, it takes two to wind things down. the iranians have not stood down. my biggest message, this problem will return. i don't know where, when or how but the iran problem will return and in the middle east or conceivably elsewhere using terrorism, cyber maybe. we ought to be prepared for that, too. >> a lot of ground covered richard. thank you for that.

that do it every day. talk about the council on foreign elections holding four pivotal elections in four states? >> first university of new hampshire. we've chosen four critical primary states. new hampshire, michigan, texas and florida, and in each one we're going to bring together former senior officials from republican and democratic administrations and the whole idea is to discuss foreign policy issues with students, faculty, people who live in the towns where the universities are to essentially get the voters more ready to ask questions of the candidates and make informed decisions which they vote in these critical primaries. voting for the next commander in chief and give bhawhatever we'r talking about, he or she will inherit a daunting inbox and we want the voters to be ready. >> for sure. still ahead on "morning joe," 2020 candidate mike bloomberg has been taunting the president with a series of attack ads, and his newest one

will get millions of views when it airs during the super bowl this weekend. "have we have an exclusive first look, next on "morning joe." fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely. but allstate helps you. with drivewise. feedback that helps you drive safer. and that can lower your cost now that you know the truth... are you in good hands?

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presidential politics will be part of the super bowl this sunday. the campaigns of michael bloomberg and donald trump have each purchased 60-second ad slots during super bowl liv at a cost of $10 million apiece. according to "usa today" they might be the first duelling political ads to ever air during a national super bowl broadcast. "morning joe" has the exclusive first look at bloomberg's super bowl spot. >> george started playing football when he was 4 years old. he would wake up every saturday

ready for the game. that became our life. he had aspirations about going to the nfl. on a friday morning george was shot. george didn't survive. i just kept saying, you cannot tell me that the child that i gave birth to is no longer here. lives are being lost every day. it is a national crisis. i heard mike bloomberg speak. he's been in this fight for so long, he heard mothers' crying so he started fighting. when i heard michael was stepping into the ring i thought, now we have a dog in the fight. i know mike is not afraid of the gun lobby. they're scared of him, and they should be. mike's fighting for every child, because you have a right to live. no one has a right to take your hopes and dreams. >> i'm mike bloomberg and approve this message. >> i jut want to say a few

things and would love your reaction to the ad. first of all this is one of mike bloomberg's core issues, something he's been fighting for, gun control, gun control reform for years even as mayor of new york city, he put money, had a big plan to put money behind candidates across america who were on the right side of this situation. so i guess the question i have for you is, a. what do you think of the ad, but, b., how does he show that his heart is in this? how does he show that record to people who just have no idea who he is? >> yeah. well, i think first of all this ad is so effective, mika. number one it's not about mike bloomberg, right? it's about a mother who lost her son to gun violence. number one, it's about that. number two, to your point, mika, he has put so much of his personal wealth into fighting for common sense gun legislation since he left the mayor's office and of course when mayor, too, he was working to pass common

sense legislation. he's actually gone out there in america and fought against democrats who are not on the right side of this issue. so there's that. then, of course, the added benefit here is this is an issue that definitely drives shows suburban swing voters. mothers in america scared to death every day to send their kids to school because washington and frankly a lot of states have not done anything on this issue. if you are watching the super bowl and not always watching cable news every day and see this ad, it might be your first introduction to mike bloomberg and what his values are. very effective and you're going to spend $10 million on a super bowl ad and you're mike bloomberg giving your record is tactically smart to dornlg. >> mike, quick? >> the ad is fine. the placement in the super bowl half time strike meese as kind of odd. maybe off tone. i'm referring now to the kind of ads that you see. some of them funny but if it's a

political or semipolitical or commercial ad, talking about the clint eastwood appearance maybe eight years ago, more about the country and the patriot theme. this ad is fine. it's factual, gets the job done in terms of what mike bloomberg stands for, but the oddity of the placement strikes me a little. >> not sure about that, because the audience that's watching -- well, we'll see. we'll be able to gauge reaction for sure after. but as adrienne was saying for a lot of people this is their first introduction to mike bloomberg. i have another one. alex, do we have the dog thing? like, this is mike bloomberg, he's in vermont, and he's meeting a dog. and, well, and some voters, too, so, like, what's this? what's going on here? can anyone explain? he just shook the dog's head and this went crazy on twitter, where everyone was calling it the snapshake. the campaign was nimble. now tweeting, dogs for mike and having fun with it, but i

wonder, what's it going to take willie, for mike bloomberg is get people to know him? obviously he's got a sense of hume you are but they're not seeing him at all in this race. >> yeah. i don't think they're going to vote based on the dog shake. recover from that one quickly. >> i hope not i. was interested watching that ad because the entire rationale for mayor bloomberg's campaign has been he's sort of the anti-trump. the guy trump pretends to be. he is a leader, he is effective. he is competent. he is a ceo. he is a billionaire, or a larger billionaire than president trump is. so i thought he might contrast himself with president trump. this is an issue ad. this is his introduction to a lot of people. i think it is an effective ad on the question of gun safety but i thought maybe he would draw a little bit of a distinction without attacking the president. a lot of people watching the game like president trump. i thought he might draw a little more of a contrast with the president. >> i agree. that's the question. who is he and how does he pair

up against trump? we haven't stheen. seen that. and coming up, no quid pro quo to -- >> the only thing that would make a quid pro quo unlawful is if the quo were in some way illegal. >> we'll discuss that. and the other stunning new arguments from the president's defense team. plus, democrats struggle to find enough republican votes to compel new witness testimony. "morning joe" is coming right back. do you have concerns about mild memory loss related to aging? prevagen is the number one pharmacist-recommended

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i can breathe again! ahhhh i can breathe again! ughh.. vicks sinex, breathe on all right. welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour, it is thursday, january 30th. happy birthday amelia. joe is under the weather but along with willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, nbc news national security analyst jeremy bash, and joining the conversation, senior adviser at moveon.org karine jean-pierre and in des moines, iowa, co-host of showtime's "the circus" john heilemann. john, start with you, since

you're there. we've got joe biden delivering a speech tonight, today, actually. ahead of president trump's rally. both of these taking place in iowa. biden really setting the stage and trump kind of getting in the game there in iowa, and holding a big rally. and then joe biden has an ad out tomorrow. let's take a look at this ad first, and then we'll talk on the other side. >> i remember guys like donald trump growing up as a kid. making fun of me for having a stutter. mocking and physically intimidating other kids. i've been standing up to bullies my whole life, and i'll stand up to this one. i'll be a president who lifts this nation up and brings us together. who understands that everyone, everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> so that was an exclusive first look at the next biden ad and i will tell you, john

heilemann, i think it goes to the heart of matter with this president. so as we have this showdown in iowa today with duelling speeches, i think that ad speaks to the big issue between president trump and joe biden. what's your gut? >> well, i think, mika, it definitely is an ad that is consistent with how joe biden is closing here in iowa. we have had this weird split screen thing going on two weeks with the senators who be running basically stuck in washington and joe biden and pete buttigieg running kind of free in iowa trying to capitalize on the open field they have. biden has been making this argument. really the entirety of his run but particularly in these last days as we've gotten to the closing argument phase here. the biden case for, based on electability, based on the notion he is the best one to take on donald trump and trying to capitalize i think effectively, in fact, on this notion that this whole impeachment drama is really just a big illustration of the fact that donald trump is scared of

joe biden. that's what this is all about. the president was trying to get out from ukraine, help from ukraine to inflict pain on joe biden and also the case, a bunch of conversations that come out of that, that joe biden doesn't love having. so he's dealing with that now for the last year or so. it feels to me like recent lip as the campaign's come down to the wire here in iowa, been kind of a real in-kind contribution to joe biden. given him focus and something important to talk about. giving this speech as an explicit closing argument and we get the president here in the evening, in the first of many ways the president will disrupt the democratic nomination process in the way he's doing it here tonight. get to new hampshire, doing it the night before the new hampshire primary in ten days or so and i think it will go on like this throughout the

democratic battle. see donald trump showing up anywhere where democrats running for president have an election. >> john, of course, the impeachment trial wallpapered across television the last couple of weeks on every single network is also a reminder to voters not just in iowa but across the country high concerned donald trump was about joe biden as a potential opponent in this 2020 race. how much is joe biden using that as an argument out on the campaign trail? look up at that tv, that's all about donald being afraid of me? >> every day. every event. every time he goes out. doing right now three events a day pretty much for this last week. i was with him yesterday in sioux city and the explicit -- taking this issue on head-on. talks about it every day and makes the point, that's what the whole impeachment thing was about. donald trump is afraid of him, thinks he's the toughest opponent he could and have what this entire drama is about and

you played the joni ernst clip. explicitly referred to that yesterday. mika, finally, that thing saying the thing you're supposed to keep inside your mind, not supposed to say it out loud. joni ernst did that and the biden campaign jumped right on that. a big part how he's closing it out in the closing days in iowa. >> and this cluster of polls we have, it tells a similar story. numbers change a little. add amy klobuchar at five up in double digits as well. what's your sense on the ground? stipulate it's up for grabs at this point. you've been there a long time, been to a lot of events, talked to a lot of voters. what's your sense where the energy is now a few days ahead of the vote? >> really interesting, willie. two lanes. progressive, warren, sanders, and moderate, biden, buttigieg and klobuchar. in the moderate lane when the competition is taking place in the center left, it's the most

fundamental kind of paradox or conflict, contrast that you see on the ground here. biden basically is ahead of buttigieg and klobuchar in almost every poll. you point out, a lot of them after kind of a polling drought in december, a ton of polling the last couple weeks and they vary. a consistent thing is that in the moderate lane biden is basically ahead consistently. but it's also true that i've been to a lot of biden and buttigieg events and almost every single one the buttigieg events are better attended, more energetic, have a lot more people at them. in every way, buttigieg is stronger on the ground than the biden campaign is. a lot of biden events are sparsely attended and pretty low energy. there's one explanation for that. which is voters aren't going out to see joe biden because they already know joe biden. he's not new. why go see joe biden? pete buttigieg is new and people want to get a look at him. right? the other potential argument is pete buttigieg just is better organized here than joe biden.

a lot of people believe that. the question is, on caucus night, if it comes to kind of reliable caucusgoers, the people who normally always go, there's no question joe biden's got a lead amongst those people. the unknown is, is pete buttigieg with all this money and organizes strength here, is he going to bring a bunch of new people into the caucus? that's what barack obama did in 2008. if that happens on caucus night next week and it's a huge turnout, it's almost certain that a giant turnout will benefit pete buttigieg and elizabeth warren on the other side more than benefit the guys who seem to be leading and that's joe biden and bernie sanders. >> it's going to be fascinating. and karine, an attempt at over thinking this. i wonder if -- i mean, the trump campaign cannot be so stupid as to give joe biden 24/7 coverage during this impeachment defense that they have been putting out there to show how afraid they are of joe biden?

i have to assume they know they're helping his campaign and propping him up, making him look strong and scary. so then who is it, other than biden, that they don't want to run against? because i can't imagine they would give all this 24/7 coverage to joe biden and prop him up as the guy who could beat trump? >> yeah. here's the thing, mika. we all know donald trump is a very small man. his ego gets in the way of everything with him. i am pretty sure his campaign aides told him, take it down a little bit. let's not give him so much energy but he doesn't listen. i do think what biden is doing today is such a smart move. what he's doing, taking it above the fray from the primary. saying, you know what? i'm going to take donald trump one on one. the number one issue that voters want to hear about is how are you going to beat donald trump? and biden has that opportunity,

because donald trump is lifted him up and coming into iowa, and going to attack biden and biden now doing this counterattack. it takes it away from everyone else, and shows, okay. this is the general election, what it could look like for folks looking for, how do you beat donald trump? so the ad is really smart. the move today by the biden campaign is very smart, and like i said. donald trump is a small, small man. he cannot, cannot help himself. he's scared of joe biden, but he should be scared of others as well. we've seen head-to-heads, the others, that four, that five, the top four and five beat donald trump in head-to-head. especially as this impeachment trial has been going on and on and on, we see that, we see that donald trump is hurting. >> hey, john, all during the summer and fall, elizabeth warren had a plan for everything that you could think of, and it was well laid out and she was electric in her performance and explaining it. what's her plan now for the

falloff in her polling numbers and her position and ranking in this race and for the iowa caucus? >> you know, mike, i think her plan is, in one respect, same as it's always been. the warren campaign, i would say if you talk to the 50 most savvy experienced knowledgeable democratic strategists in this state, in iowa, there's close to unanimity that the warren organization is the best organization in iowa. they -- spectacular field director emily parparcel, a lot obama experience. billed her being extraordinarily good. no one doubts in the fall when people started to take her on directly over medicare for all she's seen a decline in standings and fortunes, but because the race is all of these people humped around in the top, all of these people within the margin of error in that top four and push klobuchar in let's say

five, i don't think it would surprise anybody in iowa if it turned out on caucus night elizabeth warren suddenly turned out and won the caucuses. there's no question she's been a little on a downward slide but got that endorsement of the "des moines register" a big prize for anybody running in this race and they don't always pick the winner but it's something for her to tout and she's been hurt by being stuck in d.c. these last two weeks. know question about that. given all the organizing they've done and all the money they have, again, i wouldn't be shocked if they came in first here. certainly wouldn't be shocked if she came in second. imagine sanders and warren coming in one-two here and then that would be i think a huge surprise to a lot of people but not impossible. >> back to d.c., and some of the curious, i think that's the word we can use, arguments that we heard yesterday from president trump's defense attorneys at the impeachment trial. here is alan dershowitz in

advancing an extensive view of executive power arguing that any action taken by the president to help his own re-election is in the public interest. >> there are three possible motives that a political figure can have. one, a motive in the public interest, and the israel argument would be in the public interest. the second is in his own political interest, and the third, which hasn't been mentioned, would be in his own financial interest. i want to focus on the second one for just one moment. every public official that i know believes that his election is in the public interest. and mostly you're right. your election is in the public interest. and if a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that

results in impeachment. we may argue that it's not in the national interest for a particular president to get re-elected, but for it to be impeachable, would you have to discern that he or she made a decision solely on the basis of as the house managers put it corrupt motives, and it cannot be a corrupt motive if you have a mixed motive that partially involves the national interest, partially involves electoral and does not involve personal pecuniary interests. >> jeremy bash, can you spell out exactly what he's saying and why that might be concerning to those who believe in american values and also our national security? >> my old professor dershowitz has it completely backwards basically saying when a president runs for office if he thinks that it's going to benefit himself, then he can do

it even if it's undermining american national security, even if it violates the oath of office. of course, the impeachment powers is exactly what the framers installed in the constitution to prevent foreign interference. >> what are they doing there? >> exactly. in this case, mika, the facts are that the president knew and asked his personal lawyer to go forward and try to get ukraine involved in an american election. there was no national security, no national interest at stake here. the president knew it. in fact, he undermyroned the national interests by withholding military aid to ukraine who was fighting the russians. mika, one of the most important moments from the questions and answers last night was the question mitt romney posed. effectively, what date did the president know or order the military aid withheld? a version of what did the president know and when did he know it? >> show that moment. here's mitt romney.

>> question from senator romney is for the counsel to the president. on what specific date did president trump first order the hold on security assistance to ukraine, and did he explain the reason at that time? >> i don't think that there is evidence in the record of a specific date, "the" specific date, but there is testimony in the record that individuals at omb and elsewhere were aware of a hold as of july 3rd, and there is evidence in the record of the president's rationales from even earlier than that time. >> hmm. jeremy bash, why is this significant? >> yeah. this is so significant, because it illuminates the point that the president wasn't undertaking a foreign policy decision. he wasn't asking his advisers going through the regular interagency process to try to determine a foreign policy

stance vis-a-vis ukraine. no. conducting a secret effort through rudy giuliani to dig up dirt on his political rival and hold back that aid that congress had already authorized. so there's nothing in the national interest in this fact pattern. >> so, jeremy, i think it's worth revisiting that one line from alan dershowitz that made people stop in their tracks. senator chris murphy said audible gasps from democrats, if the president does something he thinks will get him re-elected in the public interest that cannot be the quid pro quo that results in impeachment. a blank check. the president believes this is good for the country he can do whatever he has to do, whatever he has to do, to make it happen? >> buckle up, willie. not only the public stance by the president's lawyers, but if the president is seeking advice from the lawyers, can't i do this? en route to the election, telling the world what they told him privately is go for it. he can do anything as long as it

helps his re-election. >> lawyers, listen yesterday, worth taking a step back, as we sift through the arguments, have conceded that president trump did what he's accused of doing. they're just saying it's not an impeachable offense. finally arrived there. >> yep. get over it. still ahead on "morning joe" a preview of what to expect from today's q&a in the impeachment trial of donald trump. we heard plenty of arguments in yesterday's session. some of which were straight to the point. others -- not so much. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> he remained on the board -- until -- april -- of -- 2019. that i can get.

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21 past the hour. just four days until the iowa caucuses, and the latest monmouth university poll shows 45% of iowans still have not fully made up their mind on who to vote for. our next guest writes about americans constant search for the perfect candidate in a new piece entitled "why our current politicians leave americans wanting." joining us now, polling director at real clear opinion research and also direct herb of polling at harvard's kennedy schools and founder and ceo of the polling data firm social sphere, and, start with your article. so americans are left wanting. what is it that they want? >> they want to be recognized, mika. this is a poll that was actually conceived a generation ago by

pat goodell. pat was a famous pollster help eade lect j elect jimmy carter. focused in the '80s of a sense of mass alienation between washington, d.c. and the people and he created a smith project poll, tapped, inspired by "mr. smith goes to washington." the poll finds despite the fact he and so many others had been asking these questions, we still find that 80% of americans essentially feel alienated from washington, d.c. looking for someone who could tap into the culture, break it up and inspire, but not just a new generation but all generations into something that makes america stronger and more prosperous. >> the numbers are so interesting. they pull us out of the who's up, who's down and get to the core issue in the country. it really is, if you look at the answer of the poll, for many people in this country about elites versus the rest of us. right? mainstream america versus the rest of us. one of the statements in your

poll. the country is run by alumnus of media pundits, lobbyists and powerful money interest groups for their own gain at the expense of american people. 84% in your poll agreed this isn't really about republican and democrat. it's about elites and the rest of country. >> and that's the issue that transcends partisanship and generation, transcends almost everything. this poll, we had 25 issues we tested. everything you can imagine from climate change to jobs to health care to infrastructure. government ethics and corruption was number one out of 25. i was frankly surprised at that. we had almost majority, 48% rated that a 10 on a 0 to 10 scale. this is here. there are elements clearly that each of the campaigns from democrats to trump are tapping into this, but i think america is still wanting someone who will make this a priority. >> by the way, bernie sanders and donald trump you pointed out both saying this in very different ways but the case they

both made. >> one of the things you can see and feel visually and anecdotally going on in this country is the geographic isolation of large numbers of people from areas filled with scientific jobs, filled with tech jobs. for instance, where you live in massachusetts, if you go 35, 40 miles west, you'll find people who feel excluded from government, excluded from potential, an affluent future for their children. these numbers of your polls do they get at that as an increasing problem in the country? >> absolutely without question. overlaid on that is generation in terms of a younger people, closer to the urban centers and have more access to more opportunities. we clearly see that, but the other thing that's kind of transcending, the rural/urban divide is the fear americans have. that's the story. we had alienation now it turns

to real fear about what the future will bring and what we found was, what other researchers found was, if you were unemployed or if you were younger, the degree to which you have fear about the future is significant. and it's connected to distress, emotional distress and making you physically less well. >> and you know your children are not going to stay where they grew up. >> sadly, no. my daughter wants to be a teacher. you know? how can she afford to be a teacher and live in our community, in the communities around boston? she's in tennessee doing public service, but the idea of the american dream when we asked someone recently up in new hampshire to what i want to do and not have to go to craig list or the internet to find somebody to share an apartment, or see a therapist, others said. >> and 61% said they would join a third party if they had a chance of success.

what is the definition for them of success? >> if it had a viable chance, i think, of winning. they don't want to cast away a vote. this cycle. i will say majority of democrats and republicans say if there was a viable third party, they would be interested. >> got it. >> quick question. i was up in new hampshire. bumped into a fellow, he and his wife doing fairly well although the guy says he hasn't received a legitimate pay raise in his check about ten years per capita. they asked me a question i had no answer for. what do you think middle class means today, he asked. >> i think not debt. not having debt. it would be my quick reaction, which is having enough money to have your kids, help your kids pay for college or have an opportunity to live in the town where they want to live. right? >> you study in all of your polling young people, young voters. we talked off-air about the fear that you touched on with young people especially.

i think a lot of people see that sort of anxiety in their kids and in young people. to what do you attribute that? is it our politics? is it school shootings? is it the fact they have all of these media in front of them that they can consume so much more than we did? what do you find when you do that research? >> it's complicated enough to be a teenager in america or an early age adult. right? between body image and bullying, all those sorts of things. whatty a hear in my focus groups and see with our data, average person, 8 to 12 texts a day regarding current affairs and current events unable to process what's important and what's not important. there is a correlation now between young americans views about the state of the country and the degree to which they have stress and anxiety. many young americans in the hvad poll released anxiety as joy on a given day. i talked to young republicans who talked to me about feeling isolated, imagine being a young

republican, fifth grade classroom, cleeat least in new england. not a lot of other young republicans. they hold they stress because they feel alone. gets back to, i think, improving civics education and making it okay to talk about politics. >> john heilemann has one for you. john? >> hey. >> how ya doing? >> just, ask you really a totally simplistic dumb, dumb question. i'm out here in iowa where i've been a lot over the course of the last month, in the run-up to these caucuses. there are two things that exist sort of side by side. i'm trying to, related directly to the kind of work you're doing. i'm trying to puzzle through and understand. on one side, you know, there's obviously a lot of discontent with the american political system you are talking about in your polling. people upset about the fact things don't work for them women and people are alienated don't way the two parties are serving interests and openness to a third party. all that stuff. on the other side we'll see monday night here in iowa record

turnout for the democratic caucuses. everyone assumes a number bigger than we've ever seen before and when they do all polls of likely democratic caucusgoers, people on the democratic side are incredibly happy with their field. speaking highly of top democrats in the field. all have huge net favorability ratings way more positive than negative. one side discontent. the other side, potentially record turnout and a lot of interesting engagement and enthusiasm with the contest that's playing out. how do you square those two things? >> the reason we see such large numbers of folks engaged, because they see the tangible difference politics can make. we saw that between 2000 and 2002 after 9/11 and in 2016, 2017. democrats and republicans realizing the difference in the two parties and making them passionate it turn out.

it's about the choices at stake today and the idea is that regardless we need to participate because there are differences between the two parties, although they're not perfect. >> thank you so much for being on this morning. great conversation. coming up, senators will resume the question and answer phase of the impeachment trial this afternoon. we're going to be joined by one of the democratic prosecutors. when congressman jason crow joins the conversation on "morning joe." we'll be right back. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker, the best of pressure cooking and air frying now in one pot, and with tendercrisp technology, you can cook foods that are crispy on the outside

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35 past the hour. the number of coronavirus cases in mainland china has now out numbered the entire number of infections that the country saw during the entire sars outbreak in 2002 and 2003 by over 2,000 cases. today china announced over 7,700 cases of the virus have been recorded up from just under 6,000 on wednesday. all but 68 of the infections recorded in mainland china. china also reported 170 people

died from the virus up from 132 on wednesday. officials still believe that the actual number of deaths is much higher than what is being recorded. to date, india and the philippines each recorded their first cases of the virus while tibet also confirmed a case making all of china and its provinces exposed to the outbreak. so far 19 locations outside of china have recorded at least one case of the coronavirus. scientists in china, the u.s. and australia are racing to develop a vaccine for the virus, but experts say they expect it to take a year to be able to do that. other health news, new government numbers show life expectancy for americans increased for the first time in four years from 78.6 to 78.7 in 2018. according to the cdc. researchers cite a drop in

cancer deaths and noticeably, the first decline in deaths from drug overdoses in almost 30 years. there was, however, a slight increase in the suicide rate. something researchers say policymakers should address for americans of almost all ages. coming up, our next guest is the only member of congress who voted against the military authorization that presidents have been using to wage war for the last two decades. today the house will vote on her measure to repeal it. that lawmaker, congresswoman barbara lee is standing by. she joins the conversation next on "morning joe." as a struggling actor,

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bill? karolyn? nope! no, just a couple of rocks. download the my account app to manage your appointments making today's xfinity customer service simple, easy, awesome. i'll pass. september 11th changed the world. our deepest fears now haunt us. yet i am convinced that military action will not prevent further

acts of international terrorism against the united states. this is a very complex and complicated matter. now, this resolution will pass, although we all know that the president can wage a war even without it. however difficult this vote may be, some of us must urge the use of restraint. >> hmm. joining us now congresswoman barbara lee of california. in 2001, three days after the attacks on 9/11 she was the sole member of congress to oppose the authorization of use of military force, which passed 420-1. now working to repeal this blank check and restore congress' constitution oversight to matters of war and peace. the matter gets a vote today in the house and we really appreciate your coming on the show, congresswoman. there's two bills.

one from a representative and the other measure from you. if passed, how will they help strengthen our foreign policy? >> sure, mika. thank very much for having me this morning. when i am trying to do through my amendment today is to repeal the 2002 authorization to use force against iraq. if you remember, that authorization was brought forth because the bush administration told us and misrepresented the intelligence and actually quite frankly lied about weapons of mass destruction and chemical weapons in iraq. we knew there were none, but my amendment then, let me recall this, what i did, we introduced an amendment that said, look, let's allow the weapons inspectors to conduct their job to really verify and/or determine whether or not there are weapons of mass destruction in iraq before we go to war.

well, unfortunately, that amendment only got 72 votes, and many democrats on the iraq resolution voted against it, because we knew that the bush administration had not presented the facts. unfortunately, it passed and here we are today still, again, democratic and republican administrations are using that iraq resolution to justify the use of force in, against iran, against any country that they so desire. we've got to get that off the books. we've got to repeal it and that's what we're trying to do today. >> congresswoman lee, willie geist, great to see you this morning. >> good to be with you. >> astonishing to watch you three days after 9/11 to stand down 0 there on the floor, ground zero literally still in flames and all the passions and have the foresight this might not be used the way it should be used or should have been explicitly used as a response to 9/11.

let me ask you what kind of support of you, the president speaking out, democrats want to make it harder for presidents to defend america. will you get republicans on your side? will you have the votes? >> over the years i have built bipartisan support for this measure to repeal this authorization. actually, last year in the national defense authorization act, we included this with i believe it was 14 republicans who voted for it. over the years we've fought hard to really bring bipartisan support to this. what happened was the national defense authorization act, of course, moved into the senate, and then senator mitch mcconnell and the trump administration took it out. now we know why. because they wanted to use force against soleimani and use force in iraq as relates to iran. this is outrageous. this was an authorization to use force to address saddam hussein and weapons of perceives and at

least thought of weapons of mass destruction in iraq. vo of course, there were none. >> congresswoman, willie just raised it. back to the clip we just saw of you on the floor of the house september 14, 2001. if you can recall and speak to what was the impact it had on you in the ensuing weeks giving the feeling in this country about what happened? did you go through any personal vilification? anything like that? >> quite frankly it was horrible, but i thought more about the families and the victim whose had been tragically killed. actually, my chief of staff, his cousin was a flight attendant on flight 93. so the mourning and grief and anger i felt just like everyone else. what happened was when i voted against this, first of all i'm the daughter of a military officer. my dad served in two wars, he said you cast the right voete. the correct vote.

a blank check overly brought and that authorization has been used over 41 times in 19 countries and in a declassified report by the congressional research service. what happened was, death threats came. there were phone calls, emails. unbelievable hostility towards me, but on the other hand, there was so many in the world who came to my defense and understood that we could not give any president authorization to use force in perpetuity and that set the stage for a perpetual war and wars without end. i have to say even though it was a difficult vote, it was the correct vote. and it really did impact my life, my family in ways that are really unheard of. my alma mater, mills college, they have 60,000 emails, letters and phone call documents of people calling, calling me a traitor. in new york, my opponent, decided to walk in the parade.

i believe it was a veterans day parade carried a sign of me smiling and the world trade towers burning in the background saying, barbara lee hates america. it was awful. but what it taught me was that a lot of people don't really understand that the right to descent, the right to offer a different point of view is central to our democracy. but people really on the other hand understood that we had to have some voices that would really urge the use of restraint. i'm not a passivist. i didn't say let's not do whatever. i just said, let's restrain ourselves. let's understand what's going on. let's be the adults and let's, during this mourning period, let's try to figure out the appropriate response so that we don't set the stage for endless war. >> all right. just given what's going to be playing out on capitol hill today and it is expected that the president will be acquitted,

how does oversight move forward after that? if it all plays out that way, what's the strategy for being able to maintain that oversight power over the president after an acquittal? >> well, first, let me say we need to make sure that the senate votes for witnesses and for documents, because how can you have a fair trial. >> right. >> if, in fact, you don't have the facts? and, you know, i worry about this slippery slope that we're on, and our democracy is quite fragile. this president again going back to the authorization to use military force. i don't believe he understands our believes that this is the democracy. he seems to think this is a dictatorship. so congress has the responsibility of making sure that we insist that we uphold our constitutional responsibilities and make sure that we hold any president, now it's this president, accountable.

and, in fact, we're going to have to keep moving forward. we can't let this moment deter us from our fight to uphold our constitutional responsibilities as members of congress, whether it's around impeachment or whether it's around the use of congress whether it's around impeachment or use of force as we have to authorize as it relates going to war. >> congresswoman barbara lee, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> my pleasure. before you go, some final thoughts. we have a big day ahead of us in iowa. we're four days away from the caucuses, but today, joe biden delivers a speech and tonight donald trump is hold ago rally in iowa. so a lot going on. your thoughts? >> right. i mean, i think, mika, this is going on to be potentially, if joe biden ends up being the democratic nominee, what we're going to see here in the space of about 12 hours in iowa is going to be a preview of what the general election looks like. obviously, there's no guarantee that joe biden will be the

democratic nominee, but seeing him do a very trump-focused speech this morning here on the ground in iowa, seeing the president show up in iowa later tonight to do a rally, that will give a pretty vivid picture to iowa voters of what it would look like if joe biden wins here in the caucuses and goes on to be the party's candidate. i think to have that on such vivid display with the vote coming up for days from now is vital. >> john, you've pretty much been planted on the ground there in iowa, which has been great to see. one of the things that you had mentioned is that it's going to be a historical kind of a historical iowa caucus. >> yeah. >> we've been seeing that in the polls a little bit and also just the last couple of years in the electoral -- what is your guess is the electorate going to look like in iowa on monday?

what do you think that's going to look like? that is the thing that i can't put my finger on. >> well, i think there's a question -- you know this is not a diverse state in toerms of racial balance. the hispanic part of the state is not very large. if you have a very large turnout, you remember barack obama in 2008 had 249,000 people, it was the most that ever caucused by a pretty large measure, by a pretty large number. people assume, as i said, that among pollsters and strategists here, there's broad -- if you look at registration data, there's a broad number. some people think it could be as many as 300,000. i'm not sure if that's right. but if that happens, the question is how many young people come in, how many college kids, who has been spending a lot of time at their universities, particularly sanders and warren who spend a lot of time organizing in

places. that's one way in which the electorate can change with youth. and the other is be bringing independence and republicans, there's no republican caucus this year. so the buttigieg campaign and to some extent the biden campaign and the klobuchar campaign has spent time trying to change the electorate. you bring in a bunch of young people and a bunch of independents. the question as we head towards monday is if the electorate is really large, is that because there's an influx of young progressives which will help warren and sanders or is it because there's an influx of more moderate voters, those independents and republicans disaffected ones. that might help buttigieg and biden by monday. >> john highlymeilman, thank yo much for coming up.

still ahead, the latest in the impeachment push. republicans are barreling towards an acquittal as democrats struggle to get enough votes to compel witness testimony. and after introducing baffling new arguments yesterday, from the president's defense. and before we go to break, a lot happening at know your value.com. some great pieces, care giving versus rearing. we've got five must-know tips for getting hired after a career break. and what if you're going through a divorce? do you ask for leave? that and much morale at knowyourvalue.com. com. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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we have incredible people who work so hard, senators, and maybe i'm just being nice to them because i want they vote. does that make sense? pat roberts, marsh blackman who has been so -- where is marsh blackman? john boseman. mike brawn, he's become a big fixture on television and doing a great job. shelly capital, thank you. west virginia, great place. senator bill cassidy, senator, thank you very much. john cornin, that you cnk you, . senator tom cotton. where is tom? kevin cramer. thank you, kevin. ted cruz, boy, has he been -- boy, oh, boy, he's dying to get back there and ask those questions. joni ernst, that was the tag team with chuck grassley and joni ernst.

lindsey graham, where is lindsey? senator josh holly. where is john hovan? you have been so great. thank you, john. senator james langford, he is a terrific person. kelly loffler. kelly, congratulations, kelly. jerry moran. jerry, thank you, jerry, and another one is james risch. james. and mike rounds, where is mike? mike, thank you. tim scott, mr. opportunity zone and i think he's over there fighting. he said just read the transcripts. tom tillis who is doing pretty well is what i'm understanding and roger wicker. rick scott has been so incredible. the rest of you, you don't have to bother with. you know the way it works in life, right? >> just your totally normal run of the action between a defendant and the jury in the middle of a trial. good morning and welcome to

"morning joe." it is thursday, january 30th. and with us, we have mike barnacle, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense nbc news national security analyst, former chief of staff for hillary clinton 2016, presidential campaign adrian elrod is with us and coauthor of the play book, jake sherman, and along with willie and me, joe has what i had yesterday. he's taking a sick day and should be back tomorrow, but willie, we are now just four days away from iowa where we're going to be at java joe's. and we have new polling that shows who candidates in a dead heat. plus, the key moments from the impeachment trial yesterday including that quid pro quo isn't impeachable even if it

happened. but first, willie, the uncertainty on capitol hill and the vote over whether to call witnesses. >> we saw some of that yesterday. republicans telling nbc news they expect now to have enough votes to block senate testimony with democrats possibly coming up one voe shy of the republican votes needed. senator pat toomey now says he is, quote, very, very skeptical that any new testimony would change his mind. mitt romney, meanwhile, says he wants to see witnesses. susan collins says she will likely vote yet for witnesses.

lisa murkowski refused to share her thoughts publicly despite saying tuesday she may want to hear from john bolton. lamar alexander of tennessee, he has expressed concern over the holdup of military aid. he is retiring after this term and a former chief of staff tells nbc news, quote, you cannot predict him. if the senate does vote for no witnesses, we are now told senator mcconnell will immediately call for a final vote, meaning the impeach. proceedings could end tomorrow with a likely acquittal for the president. so jake sherman, you've been watching every one of these votes very closely for a long time. is there a fourth vote out there in play or does leader mcconnell have this locked up at this point? >> this is about as clear as mud to me at this point. and i will say of all the things that covered on capitol hill, this is the least obvious of what's going to happen. we have not seen a fourth vote. it is very difficult to understand why this fourth vote is going to come from.

the thing that has struck me over the last couple of days is there's been no jail break. we've had a drum beat of what would otherwise be considered, you know, narrative changing stories from the "new york times" getting ahold of john bolton's book and we've not seen this jail break of witnesses that we anticipated we would see under these circumstances. so the longer that mitch mcconnell is able to hold on to his conference, the longer he's able to prevent this jail break, which he has been able to do, the less likely it is we will see witnesses and the more likely it is that he will take this to a final vote on friday. >> what about lamar alexander, jake? that's the one senator, as i said, he's retiring. he may decide this is the time to make some statement for history. what can we read into his thinking, if we can? >> we can read two things. number one, he obviously has the seat of bake whore played a critical role to say the least in the last -- two impeachments ago of a president. that's number one.

number two, we have to understand about lamar alexander if he is extraordinarily close with mitch mcconnell. a long time ally, lieutenant of his. and what republicans keep saying is if we vote for witnesses, where is it going to understand? once we hear from john bolton, are we going to need to hear from ten more people? are we going to remove this president for office? and lindsey graham has said he anticipates there will be 51 votes to call hunter biden, to call adam schiff. that is the question people are starting to ask themselves is do we want to go down this snake pit. and i'm relaying my reporting from the capital. i do think that that is a real dynamic that is playing into a lot of these senators' thinking. >> so, jay, quickly, this came is out for us and let's say the

final legal argument ends later tonight and then there's a vote on witnesses. is it possible that by tomorrow night the impeachment trying trial is over? >> more than possible, i would say likely because there will be four hours of debate on witnesses, on getting more witnesses and documents. that will come to a vote. from there, the senate will vote and likely he will be acquitted after some sort of prize that is huge and monumental that we're not seeing it at this point. >> we have mitt romney there saying i want to see witnesses. susan collins is leaning that way. but as jake points out, there may not be that fourth voice that is going to cross over. >> willie, you might have remembered, you might have seen on the show the oh day joe's epic takedown of the republican confederacy of duces. and in the new washington post

column this morning, joe has described president trump's impeachment defense team as a confederacy of dunces. during the q&a portion of the trial, we saw more examples of this. one case in point, pat philbin claims it is within the president's right to ask a foreign government for information about a political rival as long as the information is credible. >> congress has specified specific ways in which foreigners can't be involved in elections. foreigners can't vote in elections, the foreign contributions to campaign, things like that. mere information is not something that would violate the campaign finance laws. and if there is credible information, credible information of wrongdoing by someone who is running for a public office is not campaign interference for credible information about wrongdoing to be brought to life.

if it's credible information. so i think that the idea that any information that happens to come from overseas is necessarily campaign interference is a mistake. >> democrats were dumbfounded by that argument. >> this body should not accept nor should the american people accept the idea put out by the president's lawyers today that it is perfectly fine, unimpeachable for a president of the united states to say, hey russia, or hey, ukraine, or hey, china, i want your help in my election. because that's the policy of the president. we're calling that policy now. that's the policy of the president to demand foreign interference and hold money from an ally of war unless they get it. that's what they call policy. i'm sorry. that's what i call corruption. and they can dress it up and

final legalese, but corruption is still corruption. >> i could not abide the president's counsel saying foreign interference in a sense is okay if it doesn't fall into the classic definition of a campaign contribution. and the whitewashed doj investigation somehow makes anything and everything the president has done in terms of soliciting foreign interference legitimate. the president's counsel tonight, in a sense, gave a green light for that kind of behavior to continue. i hope and play that cooler heads will preevaluate. i think there was a dramatic step backwards in terms of protecting the integrity of our election. >> there were audible gasps on the president's side when the president's counsel tried to claim that it's proper for anyone running for office on the united states to take information from a foernl country. >> this idea that you would take information from a foreign government seek to go impact an

election and then weapon ooiz th oo that, i have never heard anything like that. i think we're in new territory. >> jeremy bash, the ukrainians died in the middle of this so-called drug deal that was going down while this aid was being held up. i have to say that at this point what the republican defense was saying is that it is okay to hurt our friends and feed the interest of our enemies. am i correct? >> that's right, mika. that's exactly right. and they're going a step farther and they're saying going forward is perfectly for this president or any confidence from office to accept foreign support in an american election.

and that not only creates an indebted relationship between a president and a foreign power, but it undermines the will of the american voters which is foundational to our democracy. just to go one step further, the way the president's legal team argued this is that a president can do anything as long as it's not a clear violation of statute. i could give away the nuclear codes to the russian federation and that's somehow the except of foreign policy. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll break down the stunning arguments put forward by the trump defense team, including allen dershowitz who argued this is okay because his re-election is in the public interest. you're watching "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." corner of your growing business.

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welcome back to "morning joe." here is the president's attorney, allen dershowitz arguing there was no fault in president trump's interest in joe biden and hunt er biden. >> the argument has been made that the president of the united states only became interested in corruption when he learned that joe biden was running for president. let's assume, hypothetically, that the president was in his second term. and he said to himself, you know, joe biden is running for president. i really should now get concerned about whether his son is corrupt. because he's not only a candidate, and he's not running against me, i'm finished with my term, but he could be the president of the united states. and if he's the president of the

united states and he has a corrupt son, the fact that he's announced his candidacy is a very good reason for upping the interest in his son. if he wasn't running for ptd, he's a has been. he's the former vice president of the united states. okay, big deal. but if he's running for president, that's an enormous big deal. so the difference the house managers would make is whether he's running for re-election or not running for re-election. i think they would have to concede that he was not running for re-election, this would not be a corrupt motive or would be a mixed motive leaning on the side of national interests. if he is running for re-election, suddenly that turns it into an impeachable offense. there are three possible motives a political figure can have. one, a motive in the public interest and the argument would be in the public interest.

the second is in his own political interest, and the third, which hasn't been mentioned, would be in his own financial interests. i want to focus on the second one for just one moment. every public official that i know believes that his election is in the public interest. and mostly you're right. your election is in the public interest. if a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment. we may argue that it's not in the national interest for a particular president to get elected, but for it to be impeachable, you would have to discern that he or she made a decision solely on the basis of as the house managers put it, corrupt motives. and it cannot be a corrupt

motive. if you have a mixed motive that partially involves the national interest, partially involves electoral and does not involve personal puciniary interests. >> there's a lot in there. good luck with that. but let me start at the end. i want to repeat this line. quote, if the president does something that he thinks will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment. which raises the question, under this logic, by this arguments, is there anything the president could not do? because of course he believes it's in the public interest to get himself elected. >> that's right. allen dershowitz is an effective lawyer. you start with if it's in the public interest, therefore, it can't be corrupt. now we're in that circle. from there, this is the same thing law professors do to their students to tore ter them and to get them thinking really hard.

now we're in the circle of the public interest. so then as long as the president believes subject i live that his actions are in the public interest, then it's acceptable. and if he believes his campaign, his re-election falls into that public interest, ergo, therefore, this activity is not corrupt, this activity is not an abuse of power. it is the kind of law school presentation that will leave students scratching their heads and maybe murmuring to themselves, yeah, i guess i can see that happening. the problem is it's not an effective argument to the jury or to the public and maybe not even to the senators. because this particular fact situation just doesn't work. >> you know, the only thing that allen loves more than the law is the tv camera. that's pretty clear. but jeremy bash, listening to allen describe what a president can do and not be impeached, i'd like to go back to your suggestion that giving away the

nuclear codes to russia, if a president declares to himself that it was in the national interest, things like that, things like declaring to himself that it would be in their best interest to pick up every -- in this country, all of that, if he decrees it to be in the national interest is okay. >> or if he decides to disband the united states army or if he decides to require all school children to show up on the white house lawn every morning and sing an anthem to him. there are a number of examples of a president misusing the office of the presidency and violating his oath of office. that endangers national security and undermines our constitution. and the framers did include in the constitution this check off powers. it's not a disagreement on policy. it's a statement that when the

president misuses his power for his own personal benefit which is the fact pattern that we have here, impeachment is the proper remedy. it's extraordinarily rare. it's extraordinarily sacred in the sense that you don't want to take out that weapon on any policy distinction or difference, but this is a case with the president's moeven was solely to benefit himself. >> and coming up, joe biden is taking plenty of incoming from republicans, but he says those attacks are a testament to his strength. will iowa voters see it the same way? that's next on "morning joe." e. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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there's only one way this ends. last man standing. and my side super soft?

iowa caucuses are this next monday evening. and i'm really interested to see how this discussion today informs and influences the iowa caucus goers. will they be supporting vice president joe biden at this point. ing vice president joe biden at this point.

>> the real story here is the corruption joe biden got away with. vice president biden threatened a foreign country. a company was paying his son $83,000 a month. biden got away with it and his son god paid. i'm rick scott and i approve this message. >> all right. that was iowa republican senator joni ernst on monday. joni, don't say it out loud, followed by a new campaign ad by republican senator rick scott of florida. yesterday, the former vice president responded. >> joni comes out and says that, quote, iowa caucusers are this next monday. -- excuse me, iowa caucuses are this next monday and i'm really interested how the discussion today, meaning discussion about me on the floor of the senate,

how this discussion today informs and influences iowa caucus goers. will they be supporting vice president biden at this point? kind of subtle, huh? now we have a guy, a multi millionaire, has decided to start running negative ads against joe biden just days before the iowa caucus. what do you think that's about? look, it's simple. they're smearing me to try to stop me and they know if i'm the nominee, i'm going on beat donald trump like a drum. so, folks, now all caucus goers can have a two-fer. one, you can ruin donald trump's night if i win the caucus, you

can ruin joni's night, as well. >> i was going to ask how do you run against that stupidity of joni ernst and the other, but joe biden just showed us. first of all, it's funny. it's so stupid, it's funny. and i love the chuckle and bring it right back to trump. i do think one of the challenges of this campaign is that the republican defense is so brazenly out there. as joe pointed out this week, it's stupid. they're stupid. we know this, you know this, most people know this. at this point, they're not focused on the law, the constitution, or doing anything right. they're trying to get through the dishonest way. it's almost hard to call it out because it's so obvious. >> yeah, mika, it's so obvious that if you are a campaign strategist or if you're working on a campaign and trying to figure out exactly how to handle this, it's kind of a strange thing to figure out. because it is so obvious.

it's astounding. you also have to keep in mind is that over 50% of americans still want donald trump removed, impeached and removed from office. so you also have to bear that in mind. so it is important, i think, to do exactly what joe biden did. if you go on the defense all the time, mika, as you know, it's not going to help you. joe biden had the perfect tone yesterday where he said i'm not going to try to analyze senator ernst's words here. i'm going to read them verbatim and tell you what she said and you can be the judge of that. that is a perfect way to handle a situation like this. coming up, jason crow was one of the prosecutors trying the case against president trump. the colorado democrat joins our conversation next on "morning joe." conversation next on "morn joe. introducing schwab intelligent income.

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senator shaheen asks the house managers. >> oh, no word.this takes 16 hours. the senators note pass like they're back in middle school. senator mcconnell has a question for adam schiff. will you go to the dance with sheila, yes, no, maybe. the whole process makes no sense. if the senators have a question, why don't you let them ask the question. or if chief justice is going to have to read it out, then he should at least have to do an impression of the senator that asks the question. then it makes it fun. this nxz r next question is from senator sanders of vermont. why don't all shoes close with

velcro? it's faster. that would be interesting. >> the white house is demanding former national security adviser john bolton remove classified information from his upcoming book before it's published. in a letter to bolton's lawyer dated january 23rd, a national security council aid wrote in part, the manuscript appears to contain significant amounts of classified information. it also appears that some of this classified information is at the top secret level. the manuscript may not be published or otherwise disclosed without the deletion of this classified information. the letter was received days before the "new york times" first reported on the contents of a manuscript of bolton's book. in response, bolton's lawyer rejected the white house's attempts to sensor and claimed that none of the information included is considered classified. he added that bolton is, quote, prepare to go testify at the impeachment trial and that he

would likely discuss some of the material contained in a chapter of his book on ukraine. bolton's lawyer has yet to hear back from the white house. meanwhile, trump's defense team has painted john bolton as a, quote, disgruntled former employee. the "new york times" points out that the trump administration has added the national security council members reviewed a staff of bolton's book and they briefed the white house counsel on its contents. but you wouldn't know that from listening to trump's lawyers. on the senate floor yesterday. >> no one from inside the white house or outside the white house told us that the publication of the book would not problematic for the president. i think we assumed mr. bolton was disgruntseled. but no one told us anything like that. >> oh, okay. president trump tweeted

yesterday, quote, why didn't john bolton complain about this nonsense a long time ago when he was very publicly terminated? he said not that it matters. joining us now, congressman, where are we when it comes to witnesses and potentially hearing from john bolton, unadulterated, his testimony clearly during this trial? >> good morning. the bottom line is we don't know where we are on the count close to witnesses. we don't really know where we are. we're going to continue to make our case. yesterday was a really

astounding day, frankly, in what we heard coming out of the president's counsel. they're making completely contradictory arguments in the same breath, saying the process wasn't fair, but if we went through a fair process, it would take too long saying we should issue subpoenas but then saying we don't have constitutional authorities to issue subpoenas .mr. dershowitz said an elected official always thinks they're act in the best interest of their constituents or the country and presumptively that means they never are doing anything bad, that they can do anything they want to do because they believe they're doing the right thing. that is a very dangerous hole to go down. >> congressman, it's willie g he geist. he said basically we had 17 witnesses in the house, over a hundred hours of testimony. we've heard all we need to hear.

what is your response to that? >> well, the american people overwhelmingly disagree. 75% of americans, three quarters say they want witnesses and documents. they want a fair trial, they want to see the full picture. they know a cover up when they see one and they know a fair trial when they see one. as we sit here right now, tens of thousands of americans are raising their right hand to be part of a jury on a trial and they're going the hear from witnesses and review documents. why should the president and washington, d.c. be any different? of course the answer is it shouldn't. and they know an unfair process when they see one. >> congressman, mitch mcconnell is reporting this morning that he has the vote to block witnesses. are you holding out hope that

one more republican will switch sides? >> i'm an optimistic person. i think there's always hope. what we're going to do, what the team is going to do is we're going to run through the tape. we're going to continue to push our case very hard. we're going to do what we need to do. we're going to present the facts. we're not going to engage in hyperbole. we're not going to engage in untruths. we're going to stick with the facts, show the american people this can be done the right way, that we're doing it the right way, facts still matter. right still matters. and i think history will judge us fairley. >>. >> congressman, i'd like to take you back to when you were a part of a group that had a clear objective every day. you are now in your first term as a member of the house of representatives and you are now one of the house managers in an historic impeachment trial.

has your experience disappointed you? >> i have a deep love for america. i will continue to fight for it. i have dedicated my life to this country. >> maybe some of our differences might suggest. i still believe that sitting here today regardless of what we've been through the last couple of weeks or last couple of months. but i do believe words matter. words matter and they set a tone that createsdy adviciveness throughout the country and that's why we need leadership that will do the opposite, inspire us and bring us together rather than tear us apart. >> all right.

jason, casey joins us now and she has a question for you. >> congressman, it's good to see you this morning. there is a lot of speculation this morning and our reporting suggests that there is a very real possibility that this vote ends 50-50 with three republicans voting to call witnesses and the rest voting against it. our understanding reported by our pete williams is, of course, that a tie loses. you would not get witnesses under that scenario. some have raised the question about he chief justice john roberts role in that, again, pete williams saying it's extremely unlikely that he would weigh in in that scenario. i'm wondering, are house democrats thinking through that or trying to do something to try and change that realtor do you feel your hands are tied in those circumstances? >> well, our role is to present the case. our role is not to lobby or to try to twist the arms of senators. i don't know whether that is or is not being done by the democratic senators on our side.

we believe in the fair process. we believe in making sure that this is done right and it's not the job of the prosecutors to be lobbying or docking the jurors in this case. our role is well defined here. we have to bring the case. that's what we continue to do. and i think what you're seeing is the american people are responding to what we're doing. they're seeing that we're doing this the right way. they're seeing that we're telling the truth and that's why they're putting pressure on senators from all states to follow our lead. >> congressman, curious about the process, though, when you have the republicans asking lots of questions of the white house counsel and then the democrats asking lots of questions of the impeachment prosecutors. it's really just each side affirming their side, except for mitt romney maybe asking a slightly tough question that they can't answer. you're not really getting sort of into where the discrepancy may be. if you're just hearing both sides take questions from their side.

is there any way to kind of bridge that? >> well, again, i don't think it's our role to kind of have a canned process or to guide questions in any one way. you know, we've taken the hands off approach on that. but you're right, you know, a lot of the questions are just trying to, you know, further one side's arguments over the others. actually, i think one thing that was really disturbing yesterday was the continued pedalling in these consearpiracy theories in russian propaganda. having our national leaders on a very visible national stage provides legitimacy that our own intelligence continues to warn us about is dangerous stuff and i think that needs to stop. >> yeah. congressman, thank you for being on this morning.

>> thank you. >> walter, i want to push this concept of hearing both sides just questioned their side. it doesn't seem constructive and it doesn't seem to reveal anything new. and it just allows one side that might be lying to build on their lies. so that seems a little frustrating to watch. and also really repetitive. if john bolton has something to share, ukrainians died during this delay. if there was corruption, if there was lying, if there was a crime at the highest level of the presidency, why doesn't he hold a new conference and share what he knows? >> i think it will hurt republicans badly if they vote not to hear john bolton. as you say, he clearly has stuff that's very relevant here.

and one reason it will hurt, as you sort of suggested is, he will go on tv afterwards. he's got a book that even if the white house tries to suppress it, it will start leaking out. so you're going to have week after week, drip after drip, of revelations from john bolton who certainly not some liberal, you know, anti-trump person. he's somebody who was, as the title of his book says, in the room where it happened. so i think this is a political mistake, but also a legal and moral and constitutional mistake to say we don't want to hear from this guy when you know you're going to hear from this guy. >> a lot to peel apart on the president's defense yesterday, but let me first take the dershowitz argument that the president is acting in the national interest by trying to get himself re-elected. what do you make of that?

>> i think that's pretty absurd. every policy decision has a political implication and the implication of their you own argument is that essentially anything could be absolved by that permission structure. so it doesn't convince me. it certainly might convince republicans. >> as you point out, that 50/50 draw is a side that goes to the side of the republicans. is there anything that could happen today or is this set in cement now that there will not be witnesses in this trial? >> well, i don't think it's over until it's over. certainly, the twist with the

bolton book right in the middle of this trial is not something that we anticipated. so i don't want to rule out that some sort of bombshell could change the calculus here, but at the same time, i think we all feel as though what we learned from the bolton book was the big question mark in all of this. and that has now been answered and it seems as though it has not been enough to push this over the edge. that the forces pushing republican senators not to buck the white house and the president are so strong that even this, a firsthand account from a conservative who has worked with many of these senators for literally decades who has been a trusted if sometimes controversial figure in that world says i heard the president make a direct quid pro quo with ukraine over his political rivals, if that is not enough to move these people, what could possibly be enough to

move them? and there are still some people who are holding their kadz close who are saying, we want to hear the duration of the question and answer session before we formally make up their minds. but you can feel the tide pushing against them and we have, you know, sort of behind skeptical that this will end in anything but acquittal. and it could be fast. john brass told lester holt yesterday, we have been reporting they were going to move to acquit him as soon as friday night if the witness vote goes their way. >> isn't it true as you talk to senators behind the scenes more than most do, that it was always going to end this way, in other words, there was public hand wringing, we should hear from john bolton and have witnesses. mitch mcconnell said weeks ago we will never vote to convict the president of the united states. he said we're going to acquit this president, work hand in glove with the white house. isn't it true that he and republicans were going to do whatever it took, including blocking testimony from a

firsthand witness like john bolton to protect this president? >> reporter: i don't think the outcome of the impeachment doubt was ever in doubt, willie, you're right. mcconnell said it out loud. the witness question has been legitimately a live question. had there been a group of senators who got themselves together, that is again what i think we would have seen, people like lamar alexander, rob portman, people in the government a long time, said it a thousand times on the show, people do think that what the president did was wrong, for whatever reason, refuse to say it in public. they're perfectly willing to say it in private to each other. but i don't think we ever had a scenario at least not in recent memory where there was -- and i have been putting this we to republicans -- where there was a president with such a hold over the political party in the congress that they were representing. even you think back to clinton when we started this incredibly

partisan type of tribal process, clinton himself acknowledged basically that he was wrong and the democrats were supporting him said well, he was wrong, but it is not impeachable. they're not even saying that in this case. we're not hearing republicans willing to say out loud what this president did was wrong, even though lindsey graham was willing to say it months ago. says so much about this president's hold over the party. >> yeah, to that point, noah rothman, if this plays out the way it is expected to play out, he is acquitted by tomorrow afternoon, what does it mean for the future of the gop? >> means we move on to the general election. briefly on the witness question -- >> no, but the credibility of the gop, come on, you know what i'm talking about. what does this mean? what is the republican party after the president is convicted? do they just carry on, holding the flag for trump? >> yes. they will carry on holding the

flag for trump, put it to voters to adjudicate the question which is what they said all along. there's noise made over the course of the week over how republicans were interested in trading bolton for a hunter biden swap. anyone with foresight has to know how fraught that course is, what would they find. litigating the 2020 election in an unpopular body. if they turn up the sordid appearance of nepotism, republicans can't litigate that. if the adult children of powerful positions having privileged positions is insufficienterably -- there's nothing they can get out of a witness question, moving it to speedy acquit alice what they always wanted to do. >> put your editor's hat on about this question. jason crow mentioned it a few minutes ago, there's a continued

pattern going on of lies told on the floor of the united states senate about joe biden and his involvement in the ukraine. rick scott, former governor of florida, sitting united states senator, cut a 30 second commercial, accusing the former vice president of corruption in the ukraine. there is none. every intelligence agency, every political body in europe and the united states says there's nothing there. what does the media do about the constant flow of clear deceptions if you want to be polite, but lies. do we point them out immediately when they occur on air? what do we do? what's your suggestion? >> obviously you point them out immediately, and senator scott as you said was repellent in terms of saying things that had no factual basis. and this is all part of people rallying around a trumpism, trying to be -- even secretary of state pompeo does things like this, try to out trump trump.

joe scarborough did a great interview with joe biden. i think it probably helps joe biden every now and then to get out there and just talk from his heart because if they had called joe biden in front of the senate, you would have had a pretty compelling piece of testimony from joe biden, there was part of me hoped that would happen. i think it would have really cleared things up. now you've got everything broken into such partisan ways, in the good old days you would have had 20 or so republicans that might have said oh, what he did was wrong, we know what he did was wrong. we don't really want to impeach him, but let's figure out a way to censure him, maybe work with democrats. nowadays you can't find middle ground like that. >> no, you can't. it will be fascinating to watch former vice president joe biden's speech in iowa today. walter, thank you. an update now on a story we

have been following all morning. russia closed its 2600 mile border with china in an effort to block the coronavirus from infecting their country. no cases of coronavirus have been reported in russia so far, but the russian prime minister insisted we have to do everything to protect our people. and one more note. later today the world health organization will meet to decide the severity of the coronavirus, if it should be declared an international public health emergency. we will be watching that. that does it for us. chuck todd, ari melber, chris matthews lead msnbc's special coverage of president trump's impeachment after this final quick break. colonial penn can help.

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today, the white house defending the president's actions. >> it is not campaign interference for credible information about wrongdoing to be brought to light, if it is credible information. >> i was flabbergasted by the president's counsel's remarks. >> that's what they called policy. i'm sorry. that's what i call corruption. >> as senators weigh whether to allow witnesses. >> i may be one of those in favor of calling witnesses, i'm sure there will be others. how many on my i'd of the aisle, i just don't know. >> a decision is about to be made in the impeachment trial