just come together, if we just get out there and fight for it. i truly believe we can build a better america. it's going to take all of us but we can. >> senator elizabeth warren, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> we are just getting started. much more with our panel, more candidates and, yes, more of their great aurdiance in new hampshire. good evening from manchester, new hampshire, we just saw the final debate before the 2020 presidential election. we' we've already heard from undecided voters, live in the spin room. but if you're just joining us, after a strong showing by abo

buttigieg in iowa, they came after the south bend mayor. >> i think this going after every single thing that people do because it's popular to say and makes you a cool newcomer, i don't think that's what people want right now. we have a newcomer in the white house and look where it got us. >> we've got a great group of folks to discuss here. my colleague lawrence o'donnell, aleasia menendez. we saw those exchanges on mayor pooetd. i want to play this bit. this is number six on the shoot we have right here. bernie sanders responding to the socialism question, which, chris, you brought up earlier. it's something amy klobuchar brought up as well. this is how sanders talked about it. take a listen. >> president trump thinks this label socialism will work.

at the state of the union he said socialism destroys nations. he's never going it let socialism destroy american health care. and before the super bowl he joked about the honeymoon in moscow. those hits are going to keep coming if you're the nominee. why should democrats not worry? >> because donald trump lies all the time. doesn't matter what donald trump says. it's a sad state of affairs, it really is. he will say terrible things about joe, ugly, disgusting things about elizabeth and anyone else who's up here. but i think, george, at the end of the day, the way we defeat donald trump -- and everybody up here, by the way is united. no matter who wins this darn thing, we're going to stand together and defeat him. >> one, the call for unity, which sanders clearly understands is a imperative

coming from his lips in front of those big stages. he declined to attack joe biden when a surrogate's op-ed was red against him. he's clearly very focussed on that. and second of all his response to the socialism question is basically i don't care what the guy says about me because he's going to say ugly things anyway. >> i've never heard him say this is how i'll respond to that. he just say basically i don't care. if he's the nominee, he'll be the first socialist nominee anyone's ever seen. and so, it's a very difficult thing to predict exactly how that will go. but it's coming at a point in the curve of the understanding of that word that really has never been better. this economy is fill would socialism. it's filled with capitalism. every economy in the world has a mix of capitalism and soelgism and they vary. sweden has more socialism than we do.

sweden has no capitalism. i think everyone in this room knows that. so the word doesn't scare people the way it did in the 1950s, 1960s. and bernie sanders is one of the beneficiaries. and by the way, the guy who made that word less scary by embracing it and saying i personally am not afraid of it. so, the word is living in a different environment and i can't predict how much of a liability that may or may not be. >> i do wonder if it is going to be scary to venezuelans and cubans in fll fll. and to your point about unity, and about sanders understanding how important it was to give that full-throat call for unity, i also wondered if pete buttigieg does end up becoming the nominee, how, then, sandards reconciled the attack he made tonight. which is to say there are two sides. i'm on one, the mayor is on the other.

how he's the nominee and he turns about to support him? >> they do it every time. this state remembers the phrase, voodo economics. the guy who accused his opponents of voodo economics became that guy's vice president. so, there's nothing you can't take back when it gets to the general. >> biden, of course, is in a somewhat tenuous situation in the arc of his campaign. he came in fourth in iowa, polling third or fourth in new hampshire. his campaign says, look, the first two states don't matter that much and not representative of the democratic party. but, in number two, he talked about mayor buttigieg also, because that clearly -- if you look at the tracking poll in new hampshire, it's a one for one trade happening, literally, between joe biden's numbers and pete buttigieg's numbers.

>> why are they too big a risk for democrats? >> well, you know, you know with regard to senator sanders the president wants very much to steak label on every candidate. we're not only going to have to win this time, we have to bring along the united states senate. and bernie's labelled himself, not me a democratic socialist. i think that's the label he's going to run on everyone running with bernie, if he's the nominee and mayor buttigieg is a great guy and a real patriot. he's a mayor of a small city who has done some good things but not demonstrated he has the ability -- and we'll soon find out -- to get a broad support across the spectrum. >> mayor buttigieg briefly cloned himself there in the shot. he didn't really go after him. you could see that the staff is telling him you got toot do it. he's got these things set up. he had something about the

recovery act butt he doesn't really do it. >> i can hear the same thing you hear and i can only imagine. you heard anita hill a smart democratic neoconsultant -- anita dunn, rather. what did i say? >> anita hill. >> she's often on my mind. i think they made a desfrigz cir the first time in months and when joe biden decides to run for president, they did a sunday show. why all the sudden it changed. they've been basically hiding from the tough media questions. they get tough questions from them too. it does -- we ask why does your son got this job over here at x-many millions of dollars? and then he gets the contract for ukraine, people have to be

mindless to say what's going on here? i don't think he should have to ask the ukraine president to investigate it. it's a reasonable question. where there's smoke, people want to know if there's fire. i think the democratic party has to figure out its ideology. in britain we had a liberal party and they were over taken by the socialist party and they became the main challenger to the tories. and a lot of us know that history. a lot of us will be sorting things out, if the democratic party runs a socialist candidate. the democratic party's been the left of the republican party on the issue of mixed capitalism. they push social security, medicare, medicaid, enormously popular programs. obama care has also wished they follow through with it and make the work. i think most americans would be happy to have a public option and have medicare followed through with. i'm on every night.

i'll let the democrats figure this out. i have my own views of the word socialist and i'll be happy to share them with you in prove private. i remember the cold war and i believe if the reds has 1er the cold war, there would have been executions and i would have been one of the ones executed and people would be there cheering. so, i have a problem with people for the other side. i don't know what he means by socialism. one week it's denmark. we're going to be like denmark. i'm like that's harmless. a capitalist program with a lot of good social programs. >> that's what he says and what his agenda calls for, right? >> lelgt's see. let's figure that one out. >> we haven't seen video of him -- >> that's a question of how --

what effect that has. >> what did you think of castro? we all thought he was great at first. i was cheering like mad for him when he first came in and then he became a communist and started shooting everyone of his enemies. >> hold those thoughts on cuban revolution. back to presidential candidate, andrew yang. how you doing, andrew? you had a moment tonight where you sited mlk's support for universal basic income, which aligns with the signature policy proposal. but you were supporting it in -- as an alternative to, say, race conscious forms of redistribution. mlk believed in affirmative action, racially conscious redistribution along with base income.

what do you say to people who say any universal basic income is not enough to address all those historical inequities. >> i would agree with them 100%, chris. we need have a universal basic income, a freedom divdnd and then we need continue to build on top of it. i'm pro-affirmative action. pro tailored policies specifically trying to close the wealth gap that's getting bigger and bigger all the time, unfortunately. >> what was the thing that struck you most tonight in terms of the terrain you got to cover that perhaps you hadn't covered before? >> i think abc folks talked about a lot of things we had talked about before, honestly. but i enjoyed the conversation and appreciate the fact people are honing in on electability. the fact is the number one criteria they have for the nominee is defeating donald trump. and we need someone to appeal to

libertarians, republicans, democrats and progressives. i think that came out loud and clear tonight. >> but do you think you're the most electable candidate in this race? >> according to one study, 18% of college republicans would choose me over the president and 10% of college voters in new hampshire said they would choose me over the president. by the numbers, i am the best person to take on and defeat donald trump because i am drawing many of his supporters as well as independents, libertarians and people all over the political spectrum. >> all right. andrew yang, we got to hit a break. i really appreciate it, sir. i also want to thank my panel of no msnbc all stars. thank you all. we have much more to come here from the granite state. first in the nation. first in the nation. ♪

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[ fast-paced drumming ]

here we have a situation where the world -- one of the most volatile places of the world has become more dangerous and a president, not only punishing a war hero today, with what he did to colonel vindman

and pardoning war criminals in a way that undermines the entire good code and military honor. we deserve a better commander and chief. >> south bend, indiana mayor, pete buttigieg. amy klobuchar had tough words about your experience and said something i want your response to. she said your attacks on the people up there who do have washington experience, was she toads be one of the cool kids, that there was something distancing and condescending about it, that you were belittle work of people actually doing difficult work in washington d.c., sitting through the impeachment trial. >> look, i understand the importance and the difficulty of the work that the senator and uthers are doing in washington. my point is there is frustration with washington as a whole and we're going to need a different mindset to win and in order to govern.

look, we're coming up on a situation where the future president is going to face issues that are fundamentally and profoundly different than anything we're used to, on top of conventional issues of security in our economy. and one thing i'm seeing across it the country, especially in new hampshire, and a desire to make sure we finally turn the page, leave the politics of the past in the past and bring something different to washington. >> there's a sort of consensus, i think, that aon the stage and among the voters, electability being at the front of people's minds. for someone who was two-time mayor of a town, ran state wide and got wall. ed. why should someone think you're more electable than, say, amy klobuchar who's won a number of

races in the midwest. >> the process of proving that is just ntd way. we just had an election and after a year of each candidates trying to tell how each of us will get votes in a presidential election, this is the first chance to actually show it. and we have the support we have because of our approach. but i recognize new hampshire is an independent-thinking state full of folks not going to be told what to do about iowa or anything else. and i know i've got to come out here and earn that support as we go on to tuesday and beyond. >> if you were running for president, or if you don't end up as the nominee for president, you're obviously quite young. you've had a successful career as mayor in south bend. could you win a state-wide race in your home state of indiana? >> depends on the race and depends on the year. look, i don't go looking for offices to run for.

every time i've decided to run for an office, including this one and every time i've decided to not run for an office, it's about a process, looking for what's needed in a particular office, and wondering if i have something unique to offer, sizing that up and lining it up. and what i'm seeing right now is the presidency that require as new approach. i see a situation room that would benefit from a commander in chief who's worn the uniform. i see a party struggling to connect with communities in the so-called rust belt who like the one where i led a turn around in south bend. i believe to win and to govern, what i have to offer is different and what it's going to take. >> you had strong words about the president's pardoning of war criminals tonight. i don't think i'd heard that menti mentioned on the trail before or in the debates even. the president is planning to campaign with some of the men he planned to pardon.

>> it's a gut punch to those who served honorably. not only that, it actually plays into one of the worst things said about those who have served in conflict, which is the idea anybody who's ever been in a conflict zone in uniform is somehow involved in war crimes and harming civilians. military has very clear laws on the difference between being sent into combat, being sent into those situations and committing a war crime. and for the president to throw out military justice is an insult to the military itself. it plays to the idea there's no difference between a war fighter and a war criminal. and folks in the military are not happy about it. >> on the question of health care policy, which people have gone around and around and around on -- there's a critique you've offered and others have offered, medicare for all, as proposed by senator warren and sanders, isn't there not the

votes to pass what you want passed anyway? >> here's the good news. even compared to what president obama had to work with. there's a majority of american whose want to see this happen. a majority among the american people can't seem to get any action among the american senate. and that's why we need presidential leadership ready to engage that leadership and hold that majority together. most americans, even in conservative states think we ought to raise taxes on corporations and wealthy and use that for our infrastructure and health. expecting we do something about gun violence, climate change. and you can only defy your own voters for so long. that's why i think the best use of the blue and white airplane is not to fly it to golf courses with your name on it is to be

what is not only the white house but their own voters refusing to act on these things. here in 2020, compared to even a few years ago, is we have an american majority hungry for action, ready to go. we have a responsibility to make sure even this bad faith senate can't ignore the american people anymore. >> all right. mayor pete buttigieg of south bend, thank you much, sir. >> good to be with you. thank you. >> i want to get some more feedback from the crowd here. get my stick microphone. i'm going to come to you. hi, how are you? >> how are you? >> are you new hampshire vote snr. >> i am. >> are you doundecided? >> i am. they talk about public funding and overturning citizens united and that's the first time i've heard about those structural

changes and we need fix the structure of democracy. >> i did notice joe biden was going after bernie sanders for the impossibility of medicare for all or the political will, which is a legitimate attack. but then he mentioned in passing, we're going it get a constitutional amendment to overturn citizens united. which is good but tough. >> we need politicians willing to lead to fix democracy first and to pledge to do that as the first thing they'll do. >> do you find yourself being tipped in one way or the other tonight? >> i do think amy klobuchar and elizabeth warren did a great job as the two female candidates on the stage but i haven't had a chance to meet all the candidates. and i still want to hear more about their plans. >> come on, want to hear more. you guys are insane up here. >> i am. i have a 10-year-old daughter who's met most of them too. >> next year, next four years

bronx primaries. what did you think of mayor pete's back and forth with me just now? >> um, i am deeply concerned about how much money he's taking from billionaires. and it's a legitimate concern. he does want to fix our democracy and pass policies like hr 1 but i don't know how you do at the in the game we're in. >> the fact he has money from super rich donors, that matters to you? >> it does. >> we're here in manchester, new hampshire where literally everyone in this room has met every candidate 57 times and they're still undecided and we're going it come back with more. ♪ wherever, however, whenever. we'll deliver lunch or dinner right to you.

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because he always has. i'm bernie sanders and i approve this message. the question is who can go toe to toe with mr. trump? who can take down mr. trump because he's the real threat to the country? and let me say you have to have experience to take him down. this is not a question of he's a nice guy who's going to listen. that's why i'm worried about mayor pete. you need to be able to go toe to toe with this guy on the debate stage or we're going to lose. i've heard this debate so many darn times and i love all these people and they're all right. if we win, we can get the right

thing, bernie. i'm with you. if we win, we can get the right thing, pete and -- >> mayor pete. >> here to talk about his night of candidacy, businessman, tom steyer. i notice in the clip we just played you talk about your c concern about experience, visa vee pete buttigieg. why should anyone think you have the experience, given you've never won elected office in your life to be the one who defeats donald trump? >> well, chris, what i'm saying is donald trump is running on the economy. he took out a full-page ad in the manchester union letter which is half was touting how he good isen the economy and how lousy democrats are on the economy. if we can't beat him on that f the candidate can't go to toe

totoe with him and doesn't have the experience and expertise to take him down, he can win. and i spent 30 years building a business. that could not have succeeded if i didn't understand job creation, prosperity and growth. everybody on the democratic side gets economic justice. he doesn't have a clue about economic justice. but he's going to try to make this about jobs and growth. if we can't beat him on that, it's the economy. he can win. and i'm worried pete buttigieg has a couple of years with mckinsey. that does not give you the ability to take down donald trump. he's a liar. when he talks about growth, all the money is going to rich people. when he talks about jobs, you can't live on the jobs. everything he says is baloney. but you got to be able to take him down real time, can't be intimidated and know what you're talking about. so the further he goes is the

further you go is show he's what he's always been a fraud a failure as a businessman and that's what it's going to take. >> there's a few questions tonight about mike bloomberg in the race but not competing in the early states. he spent, i think, $160 million. i think you spent around $100 million in advertising. there's something fundamentally unjust and skewed about having individuals with vast fortunes spending that and beingab able get on the debate stage and it skewed the democratic nominated process. what do you say to that? >> look, chris, this nomination is going to be won or lost based on message. do you have something differential to and important to say to the american people? and can they trust you to represent them and actually do

the things you're promising to do? and so, when i look at mayor bloomberg, he's going to win or lose based on hwhat he has to sy and whether people look at his record. i'm running to break the corporate strangle hold on the government and i have 10 years-plus fighting corporations and never losing to them. i'm the person who said climate is my number one priority. i'm the only person who will stay it and i go at it from the standpoint environmental justice and more than 4.5 million jobs paying every year and i'm the one to take down mr. trump on the economy. i have a message, chris. that is what will make me win or lose and what will make mr. bloomberg win or lose. this is what i've done for over a decade. when i see something wrong, i go after it, full bore, including putting in money to do the most

important things in america. and if that's the worst thing i do, i'll be okay. >> all right, tom steyer, thank you so much for joining us. vice president biden won't be joining us tonight. the man who sits in biden's former senate seat, senator chris coons, democrat from delaware. how are you, senator? have a seat. we're very close here. so, you're sort of campaigning on joe biden's behalf? >> just a little bit. >> i want to ask -- i hate asking people -- there's a troep where you ask the kand dcandida aren't you polling better? and they're like what do you want me to say? but i think part of the vice president's pitch is electability. trump is scared of him, hence the actions for which he was impeached. >> jury duty i finished, yes.

>> and there's proof in the pudding, if voters who get the most exposure in the early states come away thinking i don't know how ready he is to take on trump, that that hurts the case. >> let's see where we are after the first four contests. i think it's important that we sort of reserve judgment. i think what you saw on the stage tonight was joe bideen the fighter. joe biden, who's been knocked down by life several times, hard, always gets up and knows what it means to stand with people who get up and go to work and make a difference in their communities and move forward with their lives despite hard things that have happened to them. and as we go through the next three primaries, we'll move to states more representative, no disrespect, than iowa and new hampshire where he has consistently done better and poled better. once we get through those four and move to super tuesday, i

think we'll have a better position of who is here to bridge real divides in our country and confront democrat on the stage is ready for the fight and ready to win. >> something i've heard from people i've talked to and these are people who like joe biden, who have affection and admiration for him. they say what the president did in terms of ukraine was outrageous and wrong and he deserved to be impeached. but i'm worried there's a thing out there and he's created all this disinformation attached to joe biden. and i worry this is going to have its effect. >> as we heard on the debate stage, i think it was pete who said this first, frankly, donald trump will makeup something to attack whoever is our nominee. he's got slanders, nicknames, lies. i think you remember he famously made up an attack on ted cruz

that his father was involved in the assassination of jfk. it was in new hampshire our party decided we're going to put up john kerry because he's a war hero, against george bush, and they found out a way to attack him for not being a war hero. i would look at who's got the heart and compassion to connect. who do average americans look at and say who knows me? who's got the experience to put us on the world stage as the le leader who can solve climate collectively and solve our big issues globally and has an experience to pick a great running mate and cabinet to go forward. >> final question for you. vice president biden came up in a senate very different from this senate. he was a senator from the time he was 35 -- >> 29 years oelds. >> sorry, 29. and then he serve woud with thet

of old segregationist senators, through the 80s and '90s. there's a critique that he has a model of how the senate works that's dated and he keeps thinking of the times of deal making that doesn't exist anymore. >> clearly that's wrong. because, yes, he chaired the judiciary committee, chaired the foreign relations committee. but he went with barack obama to the white house and he went back up to the hill and fought hammer and tongs for some of the biggest things they got done, whether it was health care or climate change or the recovery act, he knows mitch mcconnell. he knows exactly what mitch mcconnell died shut down barack obama's agenda and he, better than anyone, understands what it's going to take to win and what's posable to get done in the senate yes, he was part of the senate of 30 or 40 years ago. he fought the fights that are literally relevant today. when i hear mayor pete say these are completely new challenges,

no, they're the challenges we face in 2016. and we need someone who understands how to fight and win. he cris cross said in 2018 and campaigned for dozens and dozens of candidates. he will do a better job of helping us win back the senate than anyuct other candidate on ticket. >> we've got another panel as well as michael moore. er panel well as michael moore. discomfort back there? instead of using aloe, or baby wipes, or powders, try the cooling, soothing relief or preparation h, because your derriere deserves expert care. preparation h. get comfortable with it.

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the democratic partee's last presidential nominee, hillary clinton has criticized bernie sanders's record saying nobody likes him, he got nothing done. senator klobuchar, you served with senator sanders in the senate. is he going to be able to get the support? not if you like it, but is he going to be able to get the support he needs from

republicans? >> i like bernie just fine. >> we're not go having to a chance to speak to senator bernie sanders tonight. michael moore, oscar-winning film maker. an honor to have you here. this came up several times in the debate. there is a huge generational divide on the question of the socialism word. and the word is he will be nominated and they'll drop a billion dollars of advertising on his head telling everyone in america they got the socialist and he loves castro and that that will really hurt. what do you think -- how do you respond to that? >> first all of he does love julian castro. that's true. listen, i hope they do do that

because what i'll be and bernie will be reminding people, the last time in this past century, when we had to fight fascism, and all that, it took a democratic socialist, franklin del norroosevelt to defeat that. >> he didn't call himself that. >> and bernie wrote this op-ed saying there should be no law discriminating someone in love with someone of the same gender. this is when bernie's always been ahead of the curve. this particular issue -- the idea of the democratic socialism is simply the first shall be last and the last shall be first. and the rich man will have a harder time getting to heaven than the camel will have getting through the eye of the needle. that was another famous

democratic socialist before the term was invented. the democratic party -- do we want the democratic party and the democrat that's on the ballot, do we want somebody who is going to be of -- essentially a president like fdr or do we want the democratic party of goldman sachs? that's our choice. we don't want goldman sachs. this is the wrong way to go. and playing it safe -- whenever we play it safe, we lose. mondale, dukakis, gore >> mcgovern. >> no, that's not too far. >> i see you cut off the example. >> from the '80s on. no, we lose when we go safe and bland. >> let me ask. >> we win when we take a risk and nominate somebody whose middle name is hussein. when everybody goes oh, my god, i like obama but -- and you

start thinking of who these people are that you're trying to please. it's your conservative brother in law. stop worrying about him. we need to bring out the 100 million americans who do not vote. if we convince just 2 million to come out, we'll have the white house. >> that segways my other question, which is about part of the sanders plan for new voters is get every bey out. the rough out was roughly the same as 2016. the percentage of first-time caucus goers was down. it seems the numbers in iowa don't necessarily bear out the theory. >> i was in iowa two weeks campaigning with bernie. it was very clear to me that the american people are in a malaise. there is a despair across the country. and i saw that.

it wasn't so much who was running this year. it's after three years of donald j. trump, too many people have given up and i don't want them to give up. i don't want them to give up at all and when they hear the thing about socialism, i want them to think the biggest socialist we have is donald trump. he believes in tax breaks for the rich, giving free stuff to corporations. tax breaks for corporations. >> they handed out $30 million in ag robusiness for themselves. >> they love socialism, the people who have the money. they want more money for them selves to spread to redistribute. they believe in redistribution. they like to take our money and give it to other corporations. i'm telling you, it's like -- i want this debate. i want it. so does bernie. you want a fighter. that is bernie.

he will not relent, he will not sellout, he cannot be bought. this debate tonight, i really enjoyed it. i clapped, i think, for each candidate. each candidate said something great. what they said about war and peace, what tom steyer said about race. and amy klobuchar, you've got to love her. >> she had a wonderful night. >> she's also just honest. what you see, that's the real deal. sheesz she's not trying to fake an answer and pander to you. and when she said that to pete buttigieg about you said you were bore woud with the trial, d rather watch cartoons and like a cartoon character, he raised his hand like this. don't do that. but it was really -- saw how -- look, i'm sorry but let's have a round of applause to attack that.

we have, maybe a tie for first. i think bernie won the popular vote. but we had a gay man in the united states of america won a primary, a tied a primary. >> along with bernie sanders. >> this is a great moment. >> thank you very much. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. man, i'm thinking tacos. hey hey! you guys look like foodies. would you like to try our trashy back ribs? oh, that sounds great... everything is locally harvested, farm to dumpster to table. uhhh, what do you... what else do you got? (stammering) w-we have a melon rind stew. comes with a pork and bean reduction. yeah, we're going to just do a lap

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we are back here live in manchester, new hampshire. i've got with me here, brittany cunningham, co-host of pod save the people. dave corn, washington bureau chief at mother jones. we were just speaking before we went on the air that it was, again, i thought it was a very good debate and very substantive. there were the moments where people went at each other that were clearly kind of teed up, but nothing really past that. >> yeah, it felt like a little bit like they sang kumbaya before they came out onstage, which frankly i think a lot of us were pleased to see. >> exactly because they are

trying to appeal to the democratic voter who is super nervous about too much fighting. >> i'm not convinced of that. honestly, i don't get the sense that when people talk about the iowa numbers, people not coming out, bernie got big, big numbers on youth. they beat 2008. but i think there's a lot of democratic voters whose attitude is like, pick somebody. >> yes, totally. let me know when you've got a nominee. >> i'm not so invested in this. i want somebody to run against, and i don't know who. >> in fact, i'll do you one more than that. i think there are people that feel a feeling of dread triggered by the primary. they want to get past it because once the decision's been made, they don't have to make a decision anymore. they don't have to deal with this. they feel like they're being given an exam they don't know the answer to, which is like who is the most electable? i don't frickin' know. why are you asking me? >> you were talking earlier in the hour, and i met people like this in the last couple days. well, who are you considering?

well, warren, buttigieg, steyer, and maybe klobuchar. >> and michelle obama and oprah and all of them. >> it's like what do you want to eat for breakfast? you can have steak, chicken, eggs, cereal, oranges. how do you decide? >> yeah. >> and what we have now is we don't have lanes. people talked about lanes. there's the moderate lane and the progressive lane. when i talk to voters, what they're looking for is outside any lane. they want who they think can win, who they feel connected to, partly in new hampshire, someone who carried their groceries in for them. >> right. >> it could be any of that stuff, and they all are kind of -- kind of acceptable. i don't see anybody hating -- any voters hating these choices. >> i don't know that i would wholeheartedly agree with that. >> what do you hate? >> i'm not saying i hate, but i think there's something really important that we have to make sure is in the conversation because part of the dread that people are feeling is a worry

about whether or not they can actually trust this electoral process, after everything that happened in iowa and the ways in which people were continuously disenfranchised in 2016, in 2018. people are dreading going to the ballot box and all of that effort, all of this conversation, all of these debates being for absolute naught. i'm very, very glad that amy klobuchar mentioned voting rights on this debate stage because frankly it doesn't matter who carries your groceries to the stcar if we dot get that part right. >> i wrote a book about this. i care about it a lot. we don't have, even in the aftermath of this impeachment, which started with the russia scandal and attacking the last election, we still don't have too many of the democrats when they have a high profile debate like tonight talking about what needs to be done to make sure we have a fair election at home and in terms of foreign intervention. >> to be fair, right, people of

color in this country -- we've been talking about this for a very long time. >> we share your pain now. >> we've been talking about this for a very long time, and there is a question. they talked about the fact that somebody shouldn't be able to pay their way onto that stage. but there is one thing that tom steyer and michael bloomberg could pay for with the billions of dollars they have. it's the fines, fees and restitutions that are standing in between a million floridians and the ballot box. that's a choice. >> i don't understand how no one has written that check. >> that's a choice you can make if you're really committed to our democracy. >> bloomberg wouldn't notice it was missing. >> one thing that chris coons said when he was talking to you struck me, which is in 2004, you remember this -- we remember this election quite well. they swift boated a guy who literally had a medal. >> and who was literally nominated precisely on the exact same thinking now of who can go

up against bush in time of war? oh, the war hero. let's nominate the war hero. >> and bush had some very strong weaknesses on that. and it occurred to me tonight that to the extent anybody laid any punches on anybody it was on pete buttigieg, it seemed to me. he was talking about i'm going to get up there and talk to donald trump about, you know, my relationship or our relationship to god and the relationship to service. he had one other element, where he was from. and i think, you know, one of the mistakes that i think democratic voters tend to make, they want to fall in love with somebody. and i think donald trump has a playing court. he has a court, right? and that court is individual bona fides. in terms of a résume, hillary clinton, because she fought on that terrain, he's a horrible person, which i think everybody here would agree. but as soon as you take him onto that court, he has an advantage because he has no shame.

the candidate i think that's going to win is going to come up there with a policy set that is going to ignore what he says personally and is going to move forward. and i think that's what occurred to me when i heard about that swift boating. >> you know, that connects to something that was interesting to me about the state of the union response which happened this week, which is gretchen whitmer got up there and it was just like this very kitchen table kind of laundry list kind of elder care and things like that. at some level, you feel like, no, but did you hear what thatify just dthat guy just did? what are you talking elder care? >> this is the question. >> this is the question. i don't know about the answer. >> can normal beat abnormal? we don't know. hillary couldn't figure out how to do it. if you bring bernie into the equations -- >> it's not normal abnormal, it's policy versus personality. literally can you attack him on

he wants to cut medicaid, or is it just so impossible in the maelstrom of his message that you can't quite -- [ overlapping voices ] >> if you can't cut through the chaos with just policy, you're not going to b able to cut through the chaos because he's going to beat you when it comes to throwing mud as a person. >> i don't believe in trying to join him on the floor where he is. i fully believe in the fact that we can energize people by cutting through that noise and making sure we put up somebody not just with a policy package but with the temperament to be able to stand up next to a bully and speak to us anyway. i think that in particular the two women on the stage tonight did that. [ applause ] >> like chris, i've written and reported on policy forever. but at the end of the day, it's still one person versus another person. that's how it works. >> thank you so much for being

here. that does it for us tonight live in manchester, new hampshire. this was so much fun. we're going to do it again soon. thanks, everybody here. to all our undecided voters, i hope you make up your mind by tuesday. we will be back here live monday at 8:00. good night, everybody. this night, the president is apparently taking his revenge. lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, who testified in the impeachment inquiry into president trump, was test -- excuse me -- was fired from his white house job and marched off the white house grounds today as was, oddly, his twin brother, who is also a national security council official but one who had absolutely nothing to do with the impeachment inquiry. he did apparently commit the crime of being born a few seconds after alexander vindman as his twin brother. apparently that is enough. within hours of colonel vindman and his brother being marched

off the white house grounds, there was word that gordon sondland, the president's appointed ambassador to the eu, was also fired. sondland gave incredibly damaging testimony about the president's behavior during the impeachment inquiry. as of tonight, he has also suddenly been recalled from his post. his lawyer, robert lus kin, confirming to nbc news tonight, that gordon sondland was not just reassigned to some other job inside the government or within the state department. he was summarily fired. and we don't know if this is the full list tonight or if there are more long knives out for people who testified in the impeachment inquiry or are related to that scandal, or literally are familially related to anyone who did so. but despite what feels like a sort of historical parallel to nixon at the height of the watergate impeachment crisis, i think it is not fair to say that this is a modern-day saturday night massacre. the saturday night massacre was

the night in october 1973 when nixon decided to order the firing of the watergate special counsel. the reason we remember that night lo these 40 years later is not just because nixon ordered the firing of archibald cox, the water gate special prosecutor. we call it the saturday night massacre because when nixon ordered the firing of archibald cox out of anger and frustration and rage at the watergate scandal, when he ordered that firing, there were resignations at the justice department from officials who felt that they couldn't in good conscience carry out that order. attorney general elliott richardson resigned rather than carry out nixon's order to fire archibald cox. when he resigned, then the deputy attorney general became the acting head of the justice department. his name was william ruckelsh s ruckelshaus. he too resigned rather than carry out the president's order to fire archibald cox. control of the justice department fell to the number

three, a man named robert bork. only bork was willing to do it, and that's how archibald cox got fired. that's what it took. but those senior officials refusing to go along with what president nixon doing, that's why we remember that night from ba the watergate scandal as the saturday night massacre. that is not what is happening here because there is, as yet, no elliott richardson in this story. there is no bill ruckelshaus. you know, there have been protest resignations in the trump administration, including over the handling of the ukraine scandal. in early october, a 40-year veteran serving at the highest levels of the state department, michael mckinley, resigned his position in part over the pressure that the trump administration was putting on ukraine to try to get that government to help president trump in his re-election bid, but also because of how secretary of state mike pompeo

and the administration more broadly had really thrown to the wolves, totally abandoned career, nonpartisan, professional state department personnel who had been caught up in the impeachment inquiry because of their jobs and who were therefore bearing the wrath of the president and the conservative media and the president's supporters because of it. michael mckinley resigned in early october as the impeachment inquiry was getting under way into the ukraine scandal. mckinley later testified behind closed doors in the investigation, saying, quote, the timing of my resignation was the result of two overriding concerns. what appears to be the utilization of our ambassadors overseas to advance domestic political objectives and the failure in my view of the state department to offer support to foreign service employees caught up in the impeachment inquiry on ukraine. he said, quote, since i began my career in 1982, i have served my country and every president loyally. under current circumstances,

however, i could no longer look the other way as colleagues were denied the professional support and respect that they deserve from us all. and thus michael mckinley resigned in protest of the administration and in protest of the actions of secretary of state mike pompeo, specifically him abandoning state department employees to the wolves as they were caught up in the impeachment investigation and not lifting a finger to protect them as they were targeted and their lives and careers were in some cases basically destroyed by virtue of the fact that as part of their job responsibilities, they had witnessed something relevant to the inquiry, and they had responded and testified truthfully about it when called to do so and subpoenaed to do so. mckinley resigned. and mckinley is not the only one. there have been other protest resignations of high-level trump appointees for various reasons. defense secretary james mattis resigned in december 2018 when he felt that the president made an unconscionable and

irresponsible decision about syria. he was followed out the door soon thereafter by brett mcgurk, who was leading the u.s. effort against isis in iraq and syria at the time. this past november, it was the navy secretary who resigned, richard spencer. he resigned in protest when president trump personally intervened and interfered in the military justice system to mess with some specific criminal cases that he wanted to try to turn to his political advantage. navy secretary richard spencer's resignation statement was rip roaring. he said, quote, the rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries. good order and discipline is what has enabled our victory against foreign tyranny time and time again. the constitution and the uniform code of military justice are shields that set us apart and beacons that protect us all. unfortunately it's become apparent that in this respect, i no longer share the same understanding with the commander in chief who appointed me in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline. i cannot in good conscience obey

an order that i believe violates the sacred oath i took in the presence of my family, my flag, and my faith to support and defend the constitution of the united states. richard spencer resigned as secretary of the navy on november 24th. remarkably today he became the first trump appointee to endorse one of president trump's opponents for the november election. we'll have more on that a little bit later on. but there have been principled, high-level resignations from the trump administration. there have been a few. because we know the president does not like to fire anyone directly, he likes to have other people do that for him, we can surmise based on that past practice that there are probably other people in the chain of command who were called upon today and tonight to start firing the witnesses who testified against president trump in the impeachment inquiry. so far, whoever those people are, they appear to be carrying

out those orders and not resigning in protest. we haven't seen any resignations, at least that we know of. that's notable not only because history is sort of focused intently on our behavior as a country right now, i truly believe, but also because at least within the military, when it comes to the specific case of lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, we have had some very pious assertions from the people who would be in an elliott richardson, bill ruckelshaus kind of role in this firing, that of course they would never let anything like this happen. of course they'd never let anything like what happened tonight -- of course they'd never let that happen. in november when lieutenant colonel vindman emerged as a witness in the impeachment inquiry, you might remember that the army moved in prepared to move his family to a secret location. they developed a secret -- excuse me -- a special security detail for him and his family to keep them safe in the face of an

incredible number of threats against him and his family after he was demonized by not just the white house but by the conservative media and by the president's supporters in congress and around the country. at the time, defense secretary mark esper was asked about colonel vindman during a gaggle with reporters. a reporter from defense one actually posted online the full transcript of the that exchange, and it is worth looking at tonight. tonight of all nights, it is worth getting this reuped in the public record. you should see this. here's the question to defense secretary mark esper. question, alexander vindman is in the news. remember, this is from november. this is the time that alexander vindman is becoming national news. question, alexander vindman is in the news. a lot of service members are going to be wondering is his career toast after testifying and should i take the risk of whistleblowing. what do you tell them as the defense secretary?

answer, the department of defense has protections for whistle-blowers. they are guaranteed in law, and he should not have any fear of retaliation. that is the department's position. question: he meaning vindman? answer: he and any other whistle-blower, all right? question: are you going to reinforce that message periodically? answer: i've already spoken to the secretary of the army about that. question: what was the message to him? answer: no retaliation. that's law. question: there's the law, but there's also ways to screw somebody. answer: there's no retaliation. it's that simple. defense secretary mark esper in november personally guaranteeing that there would be no retaliation against alexander vindman for him testifying in the impeachment inquiry. no retaliation under the law in terms of him being, you know, criminally prosecuted or something, but also no other way to, in the reporter's words, quote, screw him as revenge for

him testifying. and there's the guarantee, right? no, there's no retaliation. it's that simple. he shouldn't have any fear of retaliation. no retaliation. that's the law. so says defense secretary mark esper, november. shortly thereafter the top democrat in the senate, chuck schumer, wrote to defense secretary mark esper asking him in writing for him to confirm that lieutenant colonel vindman would be protected from any retaliation, any revenge for his testimony. schumer wrote to defense secretary mark esper on november 18th, took the defense department almost a full month to write him back. when they did, the letter this time didn't come from defense secretary mark esper. it came from the deputy secretary of defense, a man named david norquist. do you remember grover norquist, the anti-tax, who said he wanted to get government down to the size where he could drown it in a bathtub? grover norquist has a little brother, whose name is david

norquist, who trump named deputy secretary of defense. that's who sent this letter back to senator schumer, when senator schumer inquired as to whether or not the defense department would protect colonel vindman from retaliation. here's what david norquist pledged in writing on pentagon letterhead. quote, dear senator schumer, thank you for your letter to secretary esper regarding recent testimony by lieutenant colonel vindman and laura cooper. i'm replying on secretary he esper's behalf. let me assure you the department will not tolerate any act of retaliation or reprisal against them. we're committed to taking whatever steps are necessary to secure the security of colonel vindman and ms. cooper. we continue to monitor their security situation and will make available any appropriate resources necessary to ensure their safety and that of their families. please know we take our responsibility to protect our people very seriously. i appreciate your continued support of the men and women of the defense department and will keep you apprised of any

developments as appropriate. let me assure you the department will not tolerate any act of retaliation or reprisal against him. we will keep you apprised of any developments as appropriate. no word as to whether or not david norquist, deputy secretary of defense, in fact, kept the senate democratic leader apprised over the last 24 hours when reports first started surfacing that president trump indeed was planning on taking revenge against colonel vindman for his testimony. bloomberg news was first to report late last night that president trump might be seeking to take his revenge, to retaliate against colonel vindman for having been a witness. defense secretary esper was again asked about this matter at a press conference today despite his earlier assurances, his earlier pious guarantee that he wouldn't allow any retaliation against vindman whatsoever, despite him saying that himself in november, and the deputy secretary of defense saying that on his behalf in writing in

december, today defense secretary mark esper was not exactly a profile in courage when he was asked about that matter in light of bloomberg news' report that vindman might be in the president's crosshairs. >> i would refer you to the army for any more detail on that. and as i said, we protect all of our persons, service members from retribution or anything, anything like that. so we've already addressed that in policy and other means. >> we protect all of our service members from retribution or anything -- anything like that. so it was less than four hours later that lieutenant colonel alexander vindman was not only fired from his white house job but marched off the white house grounds as was his brother. what exactly did his brother do who had no role whatsoever in the impeachment inquiry? well, he's alex vindman's brother, and maybe that's enough. >> i'm humbled to come before

you today as one of many who serve in the most distinguished and able military in the world. the army is the only profession i have ever known. for the last 20 years it has been an honor to represent and protect this great country. next month will mark 40 years since my family arrived in the united states as refugees. when my father was 47 years old, he left behind his entire life and the only home he had ever known to start over in the united states so his three sons could have a bettbetter and saf lives. his courageous decision inspired a deep sense of gratitude in my brothers and myself and instilled in us a sense of duty and service. all three of us have served or are currently serving in the military. my little brother sits hundred me here today. our collective military service is a special part of our family's history and story in america. i also recognize that my simple act of appearing here today just

like the courage of my colleagues who have also truthfully testified before this committee would not be tolerated in many places around the world. in russia, my act of expressing concern to the chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal and professional repercussions and offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life. i'm grateful to my father -- for my father's brave act of hope 40 years ago and for the privilege of being an american citizen and public servant where i can live free, free of fear for mine and my family's safety. dad, i'm sitting here today in the u.s. capitol talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the soviet union and come here to the united states of america in search of a better life for our family. do not worry. i will be fine for telling the

truth. thank you again for your consideration. i'll be happy to answer your questions. >> colonel vindman did, in fact, have his life threatened for giving testimony involving the president in the impeachment inquiry. that's why the army prepared at one point to move him and his family to a secret location and provided them ongoing security in the wake of his testimony in the face of threats. well, now as of tonight, he and his brother have both been fired from their white house jobs as active duty military officers in what is clear retaliation for him having testified during the impeachment proceedings. the fate of the witnesses who testified in the impeachment inquiry and other government officials who were involved in it and know what happened is a pretty daunting list at this point in terms of where are they now. kurt volker was the u.s. envoy to ukraine. he resigned right before his impeachment testimony. not only is he out of a job, but the u.s. no longer has an envoy to ukraine at all. they got rid of the whole job.

fiona hill left her job as the top russia official at the national security council just before the scandal burst into view. her successor in that job, tim morrison, who also testified, quit that job at the national security council literally the night before he testified in the impeachment inquiry. energy secretary rick perry quit his job as a cabinet official as soon as the scandal became public. national security adviser john bolton either quit or was fired as national security adviser just as the held up ukraine military aid was released. we still don't know the full story of john bolton in this scandal, but the president is now reportedly trying to block his book from being published. and according to one report, the president is reportedly exploring the possibility of ginning up some sort of criminal prosecution against john bolton. marie yovanovitch, of course, was recalled and fired as u.s. ambassador to ukraine at the height of the scandal and as part of it. during the impeachment trial, she officially retired from government service altogether. the veteran u.s. ambassador who

was sent to replace her at the ukraine embassy, bill taylor, was also suddenly removed from his post in ukraine in the middle of the impeachment investigation. he's now returned to retirement. even jennifer williams, who worked in vice president mike pence's office and testified about his role in the scandal, she's now gone from the white house, departing in the middle of the impeachment trial and suddenly going to work at centcom instead. alexander vindman and his brother, who worked as an ethics lawyer at the national security council, they were both frog marched out of the white house today, followed soon thereafter by eu ambassador gordon sondland, today fired as well. anybody else want to speak up? anybody else want to testify truthfully under oath as to what they saw or what they know? on october 20th, 1973, richard nixon actually did succeed in firing the watergate special

counsel. but the reason we remember that night as the saturday night massacre and not just the night that nixon fired archibald cox is because high-ranking presidential appointees in the chain of command who were told to carry out the president's orders said no. they said they wouldn't do it, and they resigned themselves on principle instead. so instead of one man being killed off that night, one man who was an aggravation to the president, which was an act that nixon knew would create some blowback but nothing he figured he couldn't handle. instead of that, instead of him skipping some little rock across a pond and being willing to withstand the ripples, with those principled resignations of his own appointees who refused to help him do it, nixon ended up setting off a depth charge in that pond, and the country rose up about it in outrage because of the moral example set by his own appointees who would not go along.

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inspired a deep sense of gratitude in my brothers and myself and instilled in us a sense of duty and service. all three of us have served or are currently serving in the military. my little brother sits behind me here today. our collective military service is a special part of our family's history and story in america. i also recognize that my simple act of appearing here today just like the courage of my colleagues, who have also truthfully testified before this committee, would not be tolerated in many places around the world. in russia, my act of expressing concern to the chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal and professional repercussions. >> yeah, in russia it certainly would. after lieutenant colonel vindman was fired and marched off the white house grounds today, his lawyer released a statement that said, today lieutenant colonel alexander vindman was escorted out of the white house where he has dutifully served his country and his president. he does so having spoken

publicly once and only pursuant to a subpoena from the united states congress. there's no question in the mind of any american why this man's job is over. lieutenant colonel vindman was asked to leave for telling the truth. he came into the public eye only when subpoenaed to testify before congress, and he did what the law demanded. in recent months, many entrusted with power in our political system have cowered out of fear. and yet a handful of men and women not endowed with prestige or power but equipped only with a sense of right borne out of years of quiet service to their country, made different choices. they courageously chose to honor their duty with integrity, to trust the truth and to put their faith in country ahead of fear. and they have paid a price. the truth has cost lieutenant colonel alexander vindman his job, his career, and his privacy. he did what any member of our military is charged with doing every day. he followed orders. he obeyed his oith and he served his country even when doing so

was fraught with danger or personal peril. and for that, the most powerful man in the world has decided to exact revenge. in this country, right matters and so does truth. truth is not partisan. if we allow truthful voices to be silenced, if we ignore their warnings, eventually there will be no one left to warn us. congressman seth moulton of massachusetts was serving as a u.s. marine in iraq in the year 2004, which is the same year that colonel vindman was there and the same year that he was awarded the purple heart when he was wounded by an ied in iraq. today congressman molten said of his fellow combat veteran, quote, lieutenant clernl vindman is a patriot and a profile in courage, the opposite of president trump. republicans who claim trump has learned his lesson were so naive. joining us now live is congressman seth moulton, democrat of massachusetts. sir, i thank you for taking time

to join us tonight. >> it's good to be back, rachel. >> let me just get your response. i've seen a little bit of it in terms of what you posted online. i'm not sure this is a surprise. it was telegraphed the last 24 hours. there were a lot of people who said they'd make sure this didn't happen, and it has nevertheless happened tonight. >> you know, you pointed out that donald trump has the most powerful position in the world, but he's not a powerful person. he's a weak person, and he's someone who can't handle the truth. and that's very clear with what he's done throughout his administration. he's trying to create a cult where the only requirement, the only requirement to be part of his administration frankly now part of the republican party is loyalty to donald trump. and the reason why this is dangerous is because it puts lives at risk. the reason why this is dangerous is because it was back in the george w. bush administration when people did not have the courage to question colin powell at the u.n. people did not have the courage

to question george tenet when he came with this supposedly perfect intelligence about weapons of mass destruction in iraq. and as a result, people like lieutenant colonel vindman and i went to iraq. we saw our friends wounded and killed because people weren't willing to find the truth. and if you have an administration where there is no dissent, where there are no conflicting opinions, where there is not any interest in finding the truth, there's only interest in doing what the president wants, then mistakes like iraq will happen again, and americans will lose their lives. that's why the stakes are so high with what's going on tonight. >> let me ask you about the role of the defense department here. defense secretary mark esper previously committed, publicly committed to protecting colonel vindman from any political retaliation. in his name, the deputy defense secretary even put that assurance in writing. what do you make of the defense department being mum tonight

about the firing of colonel vindman, whoever had to carry out these orders from the president to fire him and drag him off the white house grounds tonight. nobody appehas resigned in prot and let it be known. >> when mark esper was appointed secretary of defendant, he came before the house armed services committee and we had a quiet meeting with him. i told him, mr. secretary, you've got big shoes to fill following james mattis. and the most important thing you have to do is you have to be willing to tell the truth. you have to be willing to stand up to this president when you disagree. that's the most important thing that general mattis did. and he assured me -- esper did -- that he would, but he's not doing that tonight. and he had to know what he was getting into. you know, rachel, i have a few friends who served on the nsc. one of them left a great job in the army to come to the white house because he said it was such an honor to be appointed to

work in the white house even under this president, who he had many disagreements with. when he got there, he said that what struck him most is that everybody spent a lot of time talking about when they would resign. it was like the most popular topic of conversation. what is your red line? and two weeks after he was there, he called his father and he said, this feels like germany 1939. >> wow. >> that's what we're dealing with here. and esper knows that. i want to know what his red line is, when he's going to resign, when he's going to stand up for what's right over what's convenient for this president. >> congressman seth moulton of massachusetts, thanks for taking time to be with us this friday night. i really appreciate it, sir. we've got much more ahead of us tonight. do stay with us. big night. the new rx. crafted by lexus. lease the 2020 rx 350 for $419 a month for 36 months.

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there is a document that sat in the u.s. senate throughout the impeachment trial that we, the public, were never allowed to see. it was a piece of testimony submitted by jennifer williams, who worked until this week in vice president mike pence's office. she submitted that testimony because she said it was pertinent to the impeachment investigation and to what the house was asking her about. house impeachment managers agreed that that part of her testimony was pertinent to what they were investigating, but the white house decided to call that bit of her testimony classified. so senators were allowed to look at it, but they could only go

look at it in a secure room and the public couldn't know about it at all. turns out a lot of senators who did go and look at that piece of testimony came out saying, why on earth is this classified? why can't we share this with the public? for example, democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut said, quote, there was absolutely nothing in that document that should have been classified. quote, it was only classified because it was politically hurtful to the president in the middle of the impeachment proceeding. you are not allowed as president of the united states to keep information from the public simply because it's going to hurt you politically. so today senator murphy asked the government accountability office to review whether the trump administration is abusing the classification process, whether they're improperly classifying documents specifically to protect the president and vice president from scrutiny. so we'll see what the gao does with that. he's made a formal request to look at it. but this worry that the white house might be misusing the power of classification to serve

the president's personal interests, this is part of something that is becoming an increasingly apparent pattern right now. for one, it comes alongside increasingly urgent expressions of concern about something that appears to be going on at the national security agency. adam schiff told us this week on this show that as far as he can tell, there's something going wrong at nsa and potentially at the cia as well. in his words, he said there were, quote, bodies of intelligence that the nsa collected about ukraine and the ukraine scandal that his committee requested because they believed it might be pertinent information to the president's impeachment trial. but the nsa withheld that material, he says, on orders from above. the intelligence committees have the right to see anything the intelligence community collects. that is material that the nsa is required to hand over to congress when they request it, but they are withholding it, and

chairman schiff says it's on orders from the white house. that's a very big deal. senate democratic leader chuck schumer last night expressing grave concerns about that in an interview here on this show. the grave concerns and increa increasingly sort of dire warnings about what this might mean in terms of the nsa, i think that's -- i mean they can't tell us what the information is, right? it's classified. in some cases if they can't get it in the first place, they can't even describe what exactly it is other than the general field of stuff that they asked for and had their request turned down. i mean they can't be specific about what it is that's being withheld, but there's this kind of freak-out about the fact that the nsa might be withholding this stuff. and i think that's in part because honestly you talk to people in washington, the nsa is seen as an agency that has not been totally captured by president trump and, you know, recently refurbished over these past three years to instead just promote the president's personal interests instead of doing what they're supposed to do as an agency.

the nsa is still broadly viewed as an agency that is doing what it's supposed to do and not serving the president instead. if that changes, if the nsa, the national security administration of all agencies, becomes that, i mean that's a particularly scary agency to be put to that kind of use. if a president is able to use the powers of the nsa just to serve himself, that's a whole different kind of country. now, that's what's going on with the nsa. i said this is part of an emerging pattern. i am less scared about the powers of the general services administration than i am about the powers of the nsa. but it does still fit the pattern. the general services administration is essentially a landlord for federal properties around the country. so, again, them being used and abused and turned to the president's interest is not quite as scary as the world's largest surveillance system. but, again, it does seem like with the gsa, there's another government agency that's being

remade to serve president trump's personal interest. for example, didn't get a lot of attention this past week because of all the high drama in washington. but the head of the gsa just testified in congress about mr. trump's d.c. hotel. this is the hotel property that is actually owned by the federal government and the president's company leases it and operates it as one of the trump-branded hotels. so the gsa, the federal government, is his landlord, which is awkward because he's the head of the federal government. but now that the trump organization is in the market to sell their lease on that building, they want to sell it for like a half billion dollars. well, the landlord for the building, the actual owner of the building, the gsa, is going to have to approve that sale. so within this past week, lawmakers asked the head of the gsa if she would rule out allowing president trump to sell that hotel lease to a foreign entity since that would clearly violate the constitution's prohibition on the president accepting payments from a foreign government.

the head of the gsa was asked, would you rule out him selling it to a foreign government, right? she would not rule it out. she would not rule out allowing some foreign government somewhere around the world to give the president a half billion dollars. i don't really see it as my role. at the same hearing she said she had no idea how much money the president has taken from foreign governments at his hotel right now. she said she has never asked. so of course she doesn't have that information. so the president turning the powers of the presidency and the powers of the u.s. government to instead benefit himself, to benefit himself politically, to benefit his business, to put money in his own pocket, we are used to the president wanting to do that. that's no longer a threat in the abstract. that's something we document on a day to day basis. that's called the news now. but the agencies of government, whether it's the gsa or the nsa or any of the other agencies who are being sort of implicated in

stopping doing their real work for the american people and instead serving the president, agencies allowing themselves to be used in that way, that is starting to feel like the story of this part of the trump presidency. and importantly the united states secret service putting itself in that role, that is the new scoop from "the washington post's" david fahrenthold, who joins us next. stay with us.

i don't think anybody is surprised anymore to hear that president trump takes lots and lots of days off, and he golfs a lot, and he goes to his own properties all the time. he's spent like a third of his presidency at one of his own for profit or private properties and we know there's public money expended at his own properties whenever he does that. so when "the washington post's" david fahrenthold drop the this scoop today that president trump charges his own secret service agents as much as $650 a night per room when he stays at one of his properties, that he's

charged the secret service $17,000 a month for a cottage on one of his properties, a rate that appears to be at least double the highest comparable rental rate nearby, that the trump administration has lied about these charges, saying publicly that they're actually charging the secret service nothing or almost nothing to stay on their properties when they're in fact charging them what appears to be the rack rate. well, all that reporting, i mean that is quite a scoop. but it's the kind of scoop that isn't necessarily surprising given what we know about how the president likes to butter his own cup at taxpayer expense. here's the part, though, of david fahrenthold's latest scoop that knocks me back a little bit. quote, trump's company says it charges only minimal fees, but secret service records do not show that. the secret service is required to tell congress twice a year about what it spends to protect trump at his properties, but since 2016, it has only filed two of the required six reports according to congressional offices. even in those two reports, the

lines for bedminster and mar-a-lago were blank. donald trump sticking his hand in the public till this way, right? donald trump trying to get taxpayer money for himself this way, monetizing the president, got it. we're kind of used to that by now. trump's company lying about that, got it. it's a day that ends in "y." but the secret service helping cover that up, that feels like something about us, not them. that feels unsettling. for the record, the secret service tells us in a statement tonight that it, quote, balances operational security with judicious allocation of resources. okay. good to know. thank you for the statement. not relevant to this inquiry. but here's the thing. the president's business is not just lying about this. they have tried to turn that lie into a political asset. they have been publicly telling the country that they're saving taxpayers money by charging the secret service nothing or next to nothing to stay at all of these properties.

that is a lie. and frankly i'm not surprised by them lying. but according to this new reporting from david fahrenthold, the secret service is helping them perpetuate that lie, and that's on the secret service. it is one thing for you to be a corrupting influence in politics. it's another thing for you to be a government agency that is allowing yourself to be used for a corrupt purpose and is helping covering it up. joining us now is david fahrenthold, pulitzer prize-winning reporter. his and his colleagues broke this story today. david, thank you for being here. i really appreciate it. >> great to be here. >> so this is -- i basically tweeted your entire story line by line today. i'm just getting more and more upset as i worked through all the paragraphs. i apologize for that. but let me just ask first of all about the reporting process here, how you were able to put the pieces of this puzzle together given the fact that the secret service hasn't been reporting this information in public federal databases. >> well, for me it kind of began last year with doral.

you remember when donald trump said he was going to put the entire g7 summit at doral and put all of that federal money into his own pocket. that fell apart after a few days but it made us realize he's willing to do that. like that doesn't bother him at all. so what's he been doing all along that we haven't noticed. we starting looking around to see what we know about the secret service. they go to his properties all the time. what's he charging them? the only thing we could find was this really cryptic, very trunkated release they had given out that only showed the first six months of 2017. it showed $250,000 in spending in just six months but almost no details. the details they released made it impossible to know whether these were reasonable rates or not. you look at that and go, this is something we ought to know. this is the president's business getting money from the government. how do we know so little? so we started to try to dig in and figure out what those things are and go looking for other information about the same topic. >> then when you asked the secret service about skipping these mandated updates that

they're supposed to file, i guess, twice yearly, explaining the kind of spending they do at these facilities, what was their explanation for why they haven't been filing these mandated reports? this is something they're required to do. >> their explanation was that they basically sometime in 2016, the people that knew about these reports or knew how to do them left, and they basically just forget. as an agency they forgot to do it and didn't remember they weren't doing it until the beginning of 2019 when the government accountability office did a report on mar-a-lago's spending. so since thin they've done a couple but there's still a lot of backlog. as you said, even the ones they've done, the lines for bedminster and mar-a-lago are blank. they tell you how much they spend on eric trump's weekend house, and they say they don't spend a dollar on bet ministdmid mar-a-lago, which is not credible. we haven't figured out from them why they're leaving those lines blank. we still need to figure that out. >> this is obviously both a big picture and sort of a more

focused picture story. big picture, the president appearing to monetize the presidency to put public taxpayer money in his own pocket in a pretty big and as yet unquantifiable way because the records don't exist. it's also about a government agency allowing itself to be used for this purpose and not telling the public what's going on. in terms of oversight of the secret service, are they subject to foia requests? are they subject to congressional oversight in a way that should make them have to answer for what they've done here and also fill in the blanks? >> well, they are subject to foia requests, and that's the little bit that we know has come from foia requests and more specifically people putting in foia requests, being denied and suing the secret service to get records they should have gotten anyway. so the little bit we know about 2017 and the start of 2018 comes from these nonprofit groups suing the secret service to get public records. yes, also they are subject to congressional oversight, and congress has asked for more

detail but they haven't gotten it. we wrote a story about how we were asking for more detail as part of a big bill the secret service wants. >> convenient. congratulations on this reporting you and your colleagues. thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug [ siren ] give me your hand! i can save you...

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i mentioned at the top of the show we got a first today, something we had yet to see before today in this presidency.

former navy secretary richard spencer, who quit his job in protest in november, today he became the first trump political appointee to endorse one of the president's political opponents in the election. he announced his support for former new york city mayor mike bloomberg. secretary spencer explained his logic to nbc's courtney kube. >> when i took this job, i came in as a grown-up. every morning i put my resignation paper in my pocket so i could speak true. to be frank with you, what happened happened. i took my stand. the president took his. it's all over. this decision here is for the good of the country. >> this decision being -- >> to endorse mike bloomberg, yeah. it's for the good of the country. loyalty is to the country, not to a person. >> richard spencer, lifelong republican, not endorsing the incumbent republican president is one thing. but he's the first trump appointee to explicitly endorse somebody from the other party who he wants to beat trump. he resigned from the navy in protest. now this.

former navy secretary richard spencer writing his name in history. more ahead. stay with us.

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a normal week takes a long time to get to a friday. this week took 47 days to get to a friday. but we finally got here. you made it. that does it for us tonight. i will see you again on monday. now it's time for "the last word." ali velshi is in for lawrence tonight. good evening, ali. >> there was an impeachment vote this week. there was a state of the union. there was something else. there is the purge of alexander vindman and his brother, whose only crime it seems is being alexander vindman's brother. and then there's richard spencer saying that he's doing what he's doing for the good of the country. this is several weeks in one. rachel, have a good weekend. >> thank you very much, ali. >> we'll see you monday. ahead the lifelong republican and former trump navy secretary who as rachel justd