our thanks to my fellow moderators, to the candidates and of course all of you, the audience here and at home. the nevada caucuses are this saturday with the south carolina primary one week later and the big prize, super tuesday on march third. we'll follow it all for you. i'm lester hold. good night. so begins our coverage. brian williams in new york. two ways of looking at what transpired on that stage. six people fighting for themselves. six people who over the course of two hours sometimes savaged each other and at some point someone on that stage is going to have to run against the incumbent president. sometimes at the end of what we just saw throwing in the old bromide is greater than what divides us. that dunts doesn't accurately

depict what we just saw. that's not what we saw n. form current host of deadline white house, 4:00 p.m. eastern time unless there's something i don't know, clare mccaskill. former democratic senator from missouri. jason johnson, politics editor, professor at morgan state. lawrence o'donnell, host of "the last word" 10:00 p.m. eastern weeknights on this networks in the spin room in las vegas. chris matthews at the big board, of course, steve kornacki. nicole? >> i think a lot -- i had the job for a long time of running into the spin room and explaining why my candidate won. it's a dubious craft. tonight more than ever. i think almost all these candidates have make a claim to having an important night in terms of what they're trying to achieve. i think if you were waiting for biden to be as focussed and in command as he was tonight, you finally got it. if you wanted pete buttigieg to show a national audience why he

won iowa, you got it. if you are one of the millions of people who has sort of thrust bernie sanders to the top of the national polls, you saw what you love about bernie sanders. if you love amy klobuchar, you saw her defend herself and fight, and if you're an elizabeth warren fan who wondered why she dipped in the polls, i think you saw all the fight come back in here. i think what was hanging over this was the introduction of michael bloomberg in the race. michael bloomberg's campaign doesn't really rely on the debates but he has to go through them to get beyond them. i think people will have analysis about bloomberg, everything from he's disqualified to he sort of stood apart and it may not matter. i think what we learned in 2016 is what we say and think matters a whole lot less than what it felt like in the room and what the democratic primary voters in nevada think about what they saw on the stage. >> we along with you witnessed a moment, let's call it between biden and bernie on stage.

last time this happened on a debate stage, the host network did, indeed, have audio of both participants. we are reracking to see if we can tell what was just said. claire mccaskill, your interpretation? of the free form evening we just witnessed. >> it was a little bit like a presidential version of "survivor". there was a lot of punches. and counter punches. you can tell they -- the stakes have been ratcheted up. there are candidates that were on that stage tonight that know they won't be around in 30 days. >> maybe ten. >> maybe ten. maybe after super tuesday. so tonight was a big, big night, and it showed. i thought elizabeth warren came out swinging, and landed some significant punches on michael bloomberg. i don't mean literally, obviously, but figuratively. she was certainly lived up to

her moniker of fighter tonight. i thought she had a strong debate performance. i thought mayor pete did very well tonight, and i thought joe biden had one of his better debates. this has not been his moment, these debates. i do think that i was disappointed that we didn't have any discussion about the rule of law being systemically dismantled in our country. that's what is on my mind. i think it's on a lot of people's mind, and the circular firing squad, there's a danger. there wasn't enough pivoting to talk about the real problem, donald trump. and will we get through this? yes. will the democrats still unify? i believe we will, but this kind of debate makes it tougher. >> i'm glad you raised the rule of law. we're sitting in a moment where this is the eve of the roger stone sentence. and there's a lot of speculation in washington on the right and on the left that donald trump is contemplating and aware of his power to pardon.

so i am -- i share your dismay and i found it disconcerting that in a moment where trump is to punish the civil servants to testified in the impeachment, again, freeing felons. >> for corrupt people. mr. i hate corruption. >> i'm surprised it didn't come up. >> the big new name was going to be michael bloomberg. this was probably the most expensive night in vegas i've ever seen. he lost everything. he's spent $320 million. he had the opportunity to stand on page and appear to be an equal, and he looked bored. he looked disenchanted. he stumbled over obvious questions that anybody would have anticipated about sexual harassment and stop and frisk. i thought it was a bad night for him. he's probably doubling the salaries of his staff that are going into the spin room. i wouldn't want to defend him after the night he had.

as far as unity, the most critical question tonight was when the moderator asked if someone has the delegates but doesn't hit the threshold, does that make them the nominee? everybody said no but bernie sanders. i think these candidates are going to continue fighting forward. they're not necessarily going to fall in line because bernie is in the lead. i think this is going to a long and hopefully productive campaign. >> we know how the candidates roll and their friends and family. in settings like this. that's diana taylor next to michael bloomberg who has been a partner of his for many years. he mentioned her though not by name just yesterday. lawrence o'donnell, and then we're going to swing down to chris matthews. lawrence, i'm tempted to ask who is going to tell them they have to run against donald trump in a few months. >> they're going to get there. and there was some running against donald trump tonight, but obviously there was a lot of

running against michael bloomberg. and michael bloomberg did have some strong moments. but he had -- he suffered the worst blows on that stage. the nondisclosure agreement round that elizabeth warren opened up on him and the women and others in his company with nda settlements, joe biden and elizabeth warren double teaming michael bloomberg saying release them right now on tv from their obligation not to disclose, and michael bloomberg absolutely wasn't ready for that at all. on the other hand, and by the way, on the bernie sanders thing about he thinks the person with the most delegates even if it isn't enough to lock up the nomination should get the nomination, that is exactly opposite of the bernie sanders' position of four years ago. when someone else he believed was going to go into that convention with the most delegates. that's always a position of convenience and always has been. the most fascinating thing that happened on the stage our

viewers at msnbc got to see during a commercial break in a box on the screen, and that was after elizabeth warren just flattened michael bloomberg a number of of times, michael bloomberg and elizabeth warren spent the entire commercial break in very cordial conversation with each other that was real. they weren't doing that stiff thing of turning away from each other. they were exchanging ideas. if there's audio of anything, that would be really fascinating to hear. and i'm sure they will give us their version of what that conversation was, because it was -- it had absolutely nothing to do with everything else you saw on tv during the actual debate. >> chris matthews, i want to remind everybody how it started off. what lawrence is referencing between elizabeth warren and michael bloomberg. we'll go down to chris after that. >> i'd like to talk about who we're running against. a billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse faced lesbians.

and no, i'm not talking about donald trump. i'm talking about mayor bloomberg. >> so that's how they got underway tonight. they brought hay makers for the first round. chris matthews, you're at the venue watching along with us. >> right. >> in las vegas. what did you make of it? >> well, i never saw anything like it. it was the roman coliseum. it was boxing in the 1950s. you wait for the other guy to get a cut over their eye, and then you keep punching the cut over their eye over and over and over again. that's what they did to bloomberg. that's what elizabeth warren did to michael bloomberg. she knew his weakness was the nda, and she kept punching the spot, and it kept bleeding and bleeding. he had no way to stop it. he didn't have a cut man. he should have had somebody before tonight, this is what they're going to hit you on and keep hitting you until you answer release the women or something. i think that's what it was about tonight.

what we saw is also elizabeth warren who was really doing the punching. she came back tonight, i think she's fought herself back into third place, maybe better, make second out here. i think she's probably disappointed she wasn't tougher in new hampshire. everybody said that she wasn't the fighter. she was the fighter tonight. i believe she hit every other single candidate. i don't know if she made her way to biden. if not, it's because she didn't think it was worth it. she hit every other candidate really hard. he has to get her position back in the top tier. i thought buttigieg would not lay up on klobuchar. he wouldn't lay up on the fact she didn't know the president of mexico. he kept punching her wound over and over again. it was the boxing match in which nobody pulled back and said enough. and nobody clenched. everybody kept fighting. i'll tell you i think trump probably likes the look of it. i'm not sure he right. on first few it looks awful and bloody. circular firing squad. but maybe what we saw was a lot

of passion. and maybe that passion is going to get through. but there's only one candidate who believes he's going to have the most delegates going into milwaukee, and we know who it was. the guy that said that person should be the winner. everybody else said i will not have the most delegates. they all made it official. they were not going to give the win to the person with the most delegates. that was so telling tonight. today it was an acknowledgment that bernie is the winner, not the winner, the winner so far in this whole fight. and he may be the winner all the way. i think they think so. >> i've been told despite the fact that both men were wearing their microphones, we don't have audio of the moment we referenced at the top of our coverage here. >> and in all fairness, we shouldn't. it's the commercial break. they were having a conversation. >> it was after the debate, yeah. >> i'm glad the audio doesn't exist, but we can ask them about it. it's quite a striking image of the two of them after this incredible one on one battle that was going on.

>> katy tur watched at something of a viewing party with some voters out there in las vegas. katy? >> brian, this is the first majority/minority state, the first state where a large block of minority voters will get to have their say. i watched with voto latino. a number of voters voting for the first time including mollette. you came in undecided. watching the debate did something change your mind? >> um, for the most part watching this debate, i just really kept my mind open to what all the candidates were saying, but for now i'm undecided and still deciding on which candidate holds any values. >> do you have a candidate you're leaning toward? >> not necessarily right now. i'm still looking around. still listening to everyone's points and values. so to make sure they have -- >> you have a few days to make a decision. will you make one before saturday? >> hopefully i will, yeah. whichever candidate holds any values. >> mollette, thank you. i have a couple other voters. this is not their first time

voting. this is natalie and tasha. you're in your mid to late 20s. you came in knowing who you liked. >> i voted for bernie sanders. i believe in his policies. medicare for all. his stances on climate issues. and then also just the morals and virtues of his campaign. >> there was a moment where pete buttigieg and amy klobuchar kind of got into it at the end of the debate, and there was a big reaction from the crowd here. both of them are coming into this state with some momentum. but not a lot of minority support. would you consider supporting them? would you change your mind going forward? >> no, i think i've been strong in my choice. or at least my top two choices. i've caucused previously for a candidate, and i don't think that pete or amy had the strength going forward in this debate. >> many people say they changed their mind during debates when

they watch them. was your mind swayed at all by what you saw tonight? >> i think if you've watched the last few debates, a lot of the same narrative has been spoken throughout the debates so no, i don't think that anything has been said to change my mind. >> thank you both very much. guys, a lot of them came in liking bernie sanders. a majority of people i've talked to said bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, number two. the young people at least in here have mostly made up their minds. >> all right. katy tur in las vegas. with us live, post debate coverage is former vice president joe biden of delaware. mr. vice president, first off how did you think tonight went and second, talk about this as a showing for the party. things like debating whether or not there should be billionaires in the united states. >> well, i think what it did was showed a little bit about whether or not michael bloomberg was really a democrat. i mean, the basic values he has. he's a good guy, but the basic

values are basically republican. it also exposed the fact that these ads he's running and he and obama were such good buddies, he didn't support obama. he didn't support the affordable care act. he didn't support the vast majority of what we tended to do including on wall street. so i think this idea, this all the ads, hundreds of millions of dollars of ads about he and barack are not accurate. and i think what it did is also pointed out that with regard to health care, there's an overwhelming need to do something that's rational and bernie still hasn't answered the question. how much is it going to cost? who's going to pay for it? he talks about the savings. in vermont they passed the affordable -- medicare for all. it doubled the income tax of the state. it put a 14% tax on withholding tax. and they got rid of it. the idea that this can be done

quickly is simply not true. simply not true. and with regard to immigration, the fact is that bernie did vote against the bill in 2007. had it passed, it would have already -- there would already be six million undocumented citizens. he said it's because it was viewed as slavery. teddy kennedy voted for that bill. barack obama voted for that bill. hillary clinton voted for that bill. i voted for that bill. the idea that we voted for slavery is bizarre. six million people would already be citizens. and my last point i want to make is that there's a lot coming out now that we knew before. and pointing out that bernie's desire to primary barack in 2012, barack should be primaried in 2012. this idea that this is a unity democratic party was simply not

the case. and so there's a lot that people are beginning to learn and last point i'll make, brian is that i've been in the lead for the vast majority of the time, understandably, the target has been on my back. i've been vetted 60 days from wednesday. i'm not complaining. never complain, never explain. i've been vetted and i'm still in good shape, and what now is going to happen is bernie is going to get vetted the way he never has been before. you saw mike getting vetted in a way that he never thought he was going to have happen. so i just think there's a lot tonight that came out that warranted coming out. >> let's shift the focus ahead to south carolina. how are you going to do there? is there any other place but first for you there? and who gets the clyburn endorsement? >> i think i get the clyburn endorsement. we'll soon find out. i think we're going to see i do very well there. and whether i have to be number one or that remains to be seen.

we go right into super tuesday. i have more african american support than anybody running on any spectrum of the democratic party. because they know my heart and where i've been and who i am. i feel very good about it. and so we move into states where the polling data shows and msnbc's polling data shows that i am likely to be able to be the winner. we're going to be able to win in -- i think i can help candidates win for the senate in north carolina, in arizona, clearly in pennsylvania and in michigan and in states we have to win. i'm ahead of trump by eight points in these states and i can't imagine all those front line folks who went in for that -- in purple districts, i went into 24 states, campaigned for 65 candidates. we wont 41 seats. the vast majority of those people have asked me to -- they've come and endorsed me. they want me on the ticket. i'm feeling good about where

this goes from here. >> final question, mr. vice president. i'm sitting here with nicole wallace who asked a version of this question when you were last on her broadcast and perhaps it's symmetry. the two of us covered the live impeachment hearings out of this studio where we heard your name invoked sometimes several times per minute. of course, in politics you don't get rewarded for those kinds of mentions. and as a consumer, as a viewer, i feel like i know how much your son was paid on the board of burisma. i don't know. i feel like he might have worked for chinese or romanian companies. i don't know. that's what the president and forces loyal to donald trump have said about your son hunter. you chose not to engage. we don't know the biden family story from joe biden. so respectfully, mr. vice president, are you cool with that decision?

are you okay that your story was taken by other forces outside your family? >> the answer is i am as you say cool with it, because you guys know for a fact that what they told and said about me are flat lies. you won't even run the ads that trump has put forward. and the millions of dollars, over i don't know how many, 12 million, $15 million in negative ads. every single person on his, every single person who testified under oath that worked for this administration said i did my job well. i did it -- what the person policy was. the european policy. imf. not a single person said i did anything other than what was honorable. period. period, period. and i'll be darned if i'm going to play the president's game which he's an expert at which is to decide that what you're going to do is you're going to take the eye off of what he did and try to focus on something that has nothing to do with whether he did his job. the republicans in the senate

acknowledged, acknowledged what he did, acknowledged how they went after me unfairly. acknowledged how they lied about me and in fact, what happened? they, in fact, acquitted him and now he has free reign. i'm going to beat this man like a drum. i'm telling you. i can hardly wait to debate him. i want to debate him about corruption. talk about corruption. this is the most corrupt president we've ever had in american history. i can hardly wait, brian. i'm not going to play his game. i'm not going to get into the idea of whether or not i have to defend anything. what he did was impeachable. he got impeached. he should have been convicted. they acknowledged he should have been. that he committed the crimes that he, in fact, they said he did but they said it wasn't enough to impeach him. this is outrageous. >> mr. vice president, it's nicole again. the answer you just gave, why didn't that have a home for you or anybody else on that stage tonight? as you know, i'm sure, tomorrow morning roger stone will be sentenced.

reporters have tried to ask the president if he's considering a pardon for him. you gave an eloquent sort of articulation of how the president has abused his office, about the danger of the rule of law. why wasn't that a feature in tonight's debate? >> because we ended up answering the questions that were asked, nicole. it's awful hard to get off the focus of what you're being asked to do. and the question here was as i said to michael bloomberg when we were walking off, i said welcome to the party. now that you've sent the dollars making the case that you're the democratic and you've done all these things, now you're going to be scrutiny. same with bernie. bernie, the idea that ted kennedy, barack obama voted for slavery as he said, that because we voted for the immigration bill, 6 million people would be citizens right now. mothers, fathers, moms, dads, uncles, aunts.

it's about time to start to figure out all the garbage that is not being said that's truthful. it's about being straightforward. i'm going to have plenty of time to talk, and i talk on your programs and others. this president has weaponized the justice department. he has no social redeeming value or sense of constitutional propriety. not at all. as i said before, this guy is more george wallace than george washington. watch, he's not only going to go after stone. he's going to forgive everybody out there that, in fact, he thinks stayed with him and lied and/or -- lied to the united states congress or lied to the attorneys general's office. >> mr. vice president, thank you for taking our questions tonight as we say to all the candidates, safe travels ahead. >> thank you, man. appreciate it. thank you. >> minnesota democratic senator amy klobuchar standing by patiently, i might add with

chris matthews. chris. >> thank you so much, brian. senator, what a night. >> chris, i would say so. >> the roman coliseum out there. >> that's why i brought up the boxing match on saturday. yes. >> good point. >> they were going after about michael bloomberg, but for some reason pete buttigieg went after a person to his left, you. why? why is he pounding you? >> that is quite obvious, chris. we are surging. and did much better than anyone could have ever believed. and i think pete decided he's going to try to go after me. that's fine. but i actually wish he would have been accurate when he did it. but i will deal with it. >> he went after your committee assignments and said you should have known the name of the foreign leader and if you didn't, then you said are you calling me dumb? >> well -- >> that was pretty personal. >> i thought what he did was personal. i think everyone on that stage either on the stage or after said to me they'd all forgotten names of leaders.

and it was one error, and he decided to make that the centerpiece of his attack. i think we should be talking about policy and winning. if you want to talk about winning, look at mayor buttigieg. he tried to run state-wide in indiana. got beat by over 20 points by someone who joe donnelly then the next election went onto beat himself, a democrat went onto beat him. and i think that matters? >> is he out of his league? >> i don't think we should be putting someone in charge of the democratic ticket -- >> he's out of his league. >> that has not won state-wide. and i also think as i said, he has a bunch of talking points. i know that. but the truth is i have been in the arena. i passed over 100 bills. i have a record of leading and getting things done, and i think that matters to the people of nevada. it matters to the people of this country. >> he always has an excellent essay answer for a question. you said today that was recitation. that's a pretty strong charge. what are you saying is recitation? memorized words that don't have

an experiential context, they don't come from experience. >> i'm saying this is my background. i come from the heart, and you know, when you come from the heart and you've done the work, not everything is going to be perfect. but i think it matters to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the people in this country, and that's something that i bring up there, and i think you can feel it when i talk about people that not a lot of others have. >> you know, your argument has been really affected me, i worked in politics as a staffer. i know how it works. it's about getting things across the aisle and getting things passed. getting the votes otherwise nothing happens. i know how it works. but tonight senator warren waved her hand every single time, got a lot of time tonight. a lot of time. on the attack. always on the attack. and i think it worked. so this kind of environment seems to be encouraging the kind of gladiator politics.

that your honor you're running against. >> that's what bothered me about the night. she had a good night, in doubt. the people of the country are watching. people are starting to tune in that maybe stayed home in 2016. >> what did they see? >> they see everyone fighting with each other and they don't see the leadership that we need to take on donald trump. to do that, as i said, you bring in a fired up democratic base, and they are fired up. if you want to pass gun safety legislation? great. then you also have to bring in independents and moderate republicans. it bothered me it got that personal as people were trying to get every piece of the pie. i hope people listen to me to get a piece of the bigger picture. that's now they one in nevada. not my favorite night for the democratic party. >> thank you. amy klobuchar, thank you. back to you. >> senator, thanks. chris matthews, thanks. i happen to know mayor pete who by consensus at least in this studio had a good outing tonight. mayor pete is standing by. our first break in our post

debate coverage. we're right back with him after this. >> i have an idea. >> stop sexism on the internet. we could nominate a woman for candidate for president of the united states. i think that might go a long way if we showed our stuff as a party. hi guys. this is the chevy silverado with the world's first invisible trailer. invisible trailer? and it's not the trailer right next to us? this guy? you don't believe me? hop in. good lookin' pickup, i will say that. oh wow. silverado offers an optional technology package with up to 15 different views - including one enhanced view that makes your trailer appear invisible. wow. - that's pretty sweet. - that's cool. oooohh! that's awesome. where'd the trailer go? i love it. it's magic. hthousands of optionss nationwide from national insurance companies.

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>> if you're going to run based on your record of voting in washington, you have to own the votes, especially when it comes to immigration. you voted to confirm the head of customs and borders under trump, one of the architects. of the family separation policy. you voted to make english the national language. do you know the message it sends? >> i wish everyone was as perfect as you, pete. >> nice to see everybody getting along. the former mayor of south bend, indiana, pete buttigieg is standing by with chris matthews in las vegas. >> thank you, brian. when you watch this as i have. when you watch it with a little distance, you can sort of see who has a political strategy. it seemed like warren was trying to get into the top tier by hitting you because she can't get bernie's votes so she went after the moderates, you. she didn't go after bernie. she went after you and amy and bloomberg.

>> i was mostly just focussed on getting our message out. >> didn't you note the politics going on tonight? you went after klobuchar because you're about even? >> i thought it was important for us to debate the washington record. >> why did you pick her? >> we were obviously all exchanging some views about -- >> just because she's next to you you went after her? >> i thought it was important for her to be prepared to defend the votes she's taken in washington, especially when it's backing trump judges and other trump appointees. conservative votes of immigration. issues that affect people in a place like nevada. i thought it was important to demonstrate why the world that some of the pundits think we're headed to where the only two voices are mayor bloomberg and senator sanders is not good for our ability to win. i think that was demonstrated. >> that's my favorite part of what you said. what i like, you're going to get credit for this. you're a democrat, and neither of those guys are. what does it mean that the

oldest political party in the world started by jefferson, on through jackson and fdr and everybody and obama. that party is being rivalled for, the two surging candidates are not part of the party and made choices not to become democrats. >> to me it says we need to get it together. i thought we ought to nominate a democrat. one is a republican mayor. one is independent. i believe in the values of the democratic party. it's why i'm running as a democrat. of course, i'm proud of the work we've done to reach out to independents and even to see some republicans cross over and support our effort because they see why we cannot go on with four more years of donald trump. i'm also unashamed about ensuring that we carry the banner forward for a party that through my lifetime has stood for those values that matter so much. and in the case of mayor bloomberg, i think we saw how

much daylight there is between him and democratic values. >> are you surprised in the polling and by really the rhetoric tonight how the democratic party seems to be tilting left? more than it has in the past? >> here's the thing, i actually see a strong majority in the democratic party as well as among the american people for us to make the kinds of changes that i've been talking about. whether it's bedrock democratic ideas like raising the minimum wage or making sure we deliver the health care. it's democrats skeptical of kicking people off their private plans. i think that's why saturday sanders found himself cross wised with the culinary worker's union. they've been there for us in recent years. i think the center of gravity is for those who want big things to happen and want us to be unified. we can't get one without the other. we'll never get anything done unless we build unity. also as a country we're not going to make it unless we can galvanize the american majority.

>> how do you cut through bernie's argument. which has been so effective with millennials and young people. it's a choice between revolution. he likes that word, revolution, big changes, transformational changes, health care, energy independence. education. it has to be grand and huge. we don't need a filibuster. we'll do all that stuff. he says if you're not for that, push everything else out of the way, you're a nobody. you're not going to do anything. he says that by implication. >> saying that my plan was the status quo when it's anything but. and it's just this polarized vision of the world. a lot of other elements to it that senator sanders doesn't see. >> before you were here, it was considered left. >> but that's the thing. that might not have been possible four years ago but now there's an american majority ready to do it. it's why we've got a responsibility to energize and unify, not polarize ready to take actions that are bold and progressive.

for senator sanders to say it's not enough unless you go further, if you're not for that revolution, you must be for the status quo, that's a picture most americans don't see where we fit. >> let's talk about culture and moral leadership. if somebody told me pete buttigieg people had gone after the culinary union people by name attacking women, giving them home addresses away so they could be terrorized at home, i would say that didn't happen. bernie's people and he convey anger. really, i'm not saying ferocious, but heated anger. all the time. watching him on the stage tonight, waving his arms. there's a fervency that would make some people think that's the way we behave. >> one of the questions tonight was if he's considered why it is that his campaign in particular seems to motivate people to treat other people that way? because this is not just about policy. it's about leadership. and leadership is about what you draw out of people.

any one of us might have somebody do something bad in our name, but this is different. this is a pattern. and at a moment when we've got to turn the page on a toxic political culture in washington and across the country -- >> is this behavior part of that, the toxic behavior? >> i consider the behavior of those supporters to be toxic, and i think he needs to provide a better answer on why he thinks that's such a common and consistent thread among people who seem to be motivated to do these things by him and his campaign. >> i thought his comment that 99% people on twitter are nice common people. i this is a percentage on the other side. thank you, mr. mayor. >> our thanks. >> lawrence o'donnell, you've been watching carefully and i've been watching you. >> one of the funny things about pete is he will claim his health care legislation is much more practical and it's much more likely to pass. this is all being discussed in a fantasy world in which mitch mcconnell is not the majority leader of the united states senate.

there is no plan right now to make mitch mcconnell not the majority leader of the united states senate. there are hopes and targets and there's a possibility it can happen, maybe, but there's absolutely no way on earth you're going to get up to, say, 57 democrats or 60 democrats that it would take to do any of these things. so the difference between pete buttigieg's health care proposal and bernie sanders' proposal is they are equally unrealistic about the possibility of actually becoming law. and not one sentence of health care legislation that was discussed tonight has a chance of becoming law if mitch mcconnell is still the majority leader of the senate, or if the democrats have less than, say, 57 or so democrats. >> what could can they have been discussing with that same amount of time? >> foreign policy. which was not discussed at all. it's entirely within the president's realm. defense policy. china. the word china didn't come up in this debate. so there's plenty of presidential territory to discuss. and these debates inevitably

spend a half hour on health care legislation. not one sentence of which has a realist possibility of passing. i heard buttigieg's strategy. he says he's going to fly in to kentucky to have kentuckians convince mitch mcconnell to do it. he's going to do that after losing kentucky by 20 points to donald trump. it's pure fantasy world. this whole section of it. >> i have to say, though, pete buttigieg is remarkable for this reason. he went to iowa. he took advantage of the fact that many of his opponents were stuck in washington, sitting as jurors in the impeachment trial. and he put what is his training, whether it's military, whether it's his time in the private sector, to use organizing and coming out with a victory. i mean, pete buttigieg won the iowa caucuses. he approaches the debates in a similar way. it is -- everyone comes in with a strategy. i had the privilege of preparing

a former president and senator in debates. none of them have gone down in the great debaters hall of fame. i know how hard it is. this is not a dis on anybody else. but pete buttigieg had a singular ability to converse. he didn't just go after amy klobuchar. i thought he was to amy klobuchar what elizabeth warren was to michael bloomberg. i thought he decimated on her own record in terms of substance. he's likable. she'll be fine. she has a lot of appeal. in terms of evaluating the candidates in terms of what the task was tonight, he had a strategy and executed it and he does very well. he seems to gain the most ground where he can be the person with the discipline and the wherewithal to execute his own strategy. i think he's the most disciplined candidate. >> i want to remind the viewers some of what you're talking about here. here is warren versus bloomberg early on.

>> so mr. mayor, are you willing to release all of those women from those nondisclosure agreements so we can hear their side of the story? >> we have a very few nondisclosure agreements. >> how many is that? >> let me finish. >> how many is that? >> none of them accuse me of doing anything other than maybe they didn't like a joke i told. >> we are not going to beat donald trump with a man who has who knows how many nondisclosure agreements, and the drip, drip, drip of stories of women saying they have been harassed. >> massachusetts senator elizabeth warren standing by live with chris matthews in las vegas. chris. >> senator, you went into this debate tonight with a plan, and you executed it devastatingly. you hit them with that comment he made, apparently, about a horse faced lesbian. it was so graphic and so personal. tell me why you started the debate with that point of view. that attack line. >> because i think it's

important for people to know exactly what michael bloomberg has said and done. you know, he wants to smooth over it all and say oh, but i treated some women nicely. and that just doesn't cut it. it is important to know who this guy is because understand this. this guy is a threat not because he gets out and shakes hands with people and people think he has really great ideas. he's a threat because he's already dropped $400 million in this campaign. and understand this. after his performance tonight, i have no doubt he is about to drop tonight another $100 million in this campaign. >> why does this lead to more spending? >> in order to try to erase america's memory of what happened on that debate stage. >> but that's -- that moment with you and him, whoever is right or wrong, although you were on the offensive that hit him on the facts, fair enough, of vulnerability. that's going to be replayed in every affiliate around the country. that's going to be around tonight on the late news and on our networks and other networks

for days if not weeks. >> i hope that is the case. >> i think you did score there. my question is is that a disqualifying fact? do you think he should not be considered by democratic voters? >> yes. i think it is disqualifying. how can we say we want to trade our arrogant billionaire for your arrogant billionaire? especially when this is a man who has treated women so badly. you know, can we please keep in mind how important women have finally -- we have been acknowledged to be important in electing our candidates? you just can't lead with the guy who has this kind of history. >> i'm a student of political strategy. i think i see it when i see it. tell me if i'm wrong. i think you went into the debate realizing you have to reveal more of your game, more of the fighter than the unifier. you used the word a number of times. and clearly you were targeting not bernie who seems to have a

phalanx around his vote. hard to penetrate it on the far left. you said i made a mistake. i try to be something like bernie. you went after the mainstream, buttigieg, klobuchar, biden, bloomberg. you went after the whole array of sort of so-called moderate democrats knowing that's the soft underbelly where you can get more votes. go up in the rankings by going after those people. what you tried before was to poach bernie votes. i think that was your strategy tonight. was it? >> you are much more strategic than i am around this. you really are. >> you know what you're doing. >> look, i think this is the question now, electability. because democrats want to beat donald trump. so we need a nominee who can get elected. what's it going to take? we need a nominee with unshakable values and has a record of getting things done.

somebody who will fight for them. >> suppose senator sanders gets 37, 40 % of the delegates and we're heading into milwaukee and somebody else has, maybe you, 30. you're in the low 30s, he's in the high 30s, or somebody else. how do you deny him the nomination in the second ballot? without his people rebelling and leaving the party. >> look, chris, i think that this will play out. we've only heard from 2% of the electorate. >> play out tonight. that means denying the one with the most delegates with the most votes on the first ballot. >> let's hear from more people before we declare how this is going to go. i think the fundamental question everyone is starting to take a look at is who can actually get elected in november. >> but you answered the question from chuck todd. you answered the question that said it shouldn't go to the person with the most delegates. it should go to the second ballot if necessary. it should have a process that works its way. in other words, someone else can win.

>> we need to pick a nominee who can beat donald trump. somebody who is talking to all parts of the party. >> i am with you on that. >> good to see you, chris. >> center left coalition with some republicans or you don't win. >> that's what i love best about my wealth tax and anti-corruption and increasing social security. these are all things everybody can get behind. all the democrats and republicans. >> and if you ever make $50 million for personal wealth, you'll be glad to pay. >> i'll be glad to pay my two cents. >> i think she won tonight, and i don't give these trophies away to everybody. >> thank you. we're going to take another break. when we come back, we'll be joined by a former white house press secretary. here's a hint. in the last democratic administration. colonial penn can help.

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if you want to issue a real

apology, then the apology has to start with the intent of the plan as it was put together, and the willful ignorance day by day by day of admitting what was happening even as people protested in your own street. you need a different apology here, mr. mayor. >> one of the warmer moments between candidates tonight, and joining our conversation here in new york is robert gibbs, former white house press secretary under president obama. welcome back. it's good to see you again. i don't mean to laugh. as a loyal democrat, i ask you why isn't the title of tonight american carnage? >> well, i think these are moments in an election that have to happen. they have to happen inside of the party. there has to be a process that tests and pushes and pulls the candidates. i mean, mayor bloomberg found out tonight it isn't just about running ads. you have to go out and answer questions. it's a process that makes the

candidate a better candidate to run in november. i watched a lot of barack obama debates, particularly early. he was not a good debater. he got better because the candidates on that stage made him a better debater. and that is what this process will do. sometimes it's painful to watch. but it's -- it has to happen in order to birth an eventual nominee. >> was the sub head message to bloomberg tonight we don't think you should make so much money? we're happy to take that money as a party? and by the way, get off the stage? >> well, it was -- from the get go, a rude greeting for mayor bloomberg. i will say it is also hard to watch candidates when they start this process late. right? pick your analogy. they're batting against mid season pitching without any spring training. they jump on the treadmill already going ten miles per

hour. and there's no warmup. i think you saw it. you could tell the demeanor. he didn't even know how to get into questions other than to try to defend himself until maybe the last half of the debate. i think obviously not a great night for him. the question obviously will be will more people see his ads tomorrow than watch the debate tonight? the answer may well be the right one. i will say i think -- i think certain candidates knew the clock is ticking. they've got to make their own momentum. they only have a couple of chances between now and super tuesday when the party will pick up a third of the delegates. i thought one of the most interesting answers tonight was the one that chuck asked. would you support the candidate in milwaukee with only a plurality of delegates? bernie sanders said yes and five other candidates said no because all six of those candidates know that bernie sanders is on that trajectory. and i don't think anything

changed that trajectory tonight in a way that impacts bernie long-term. pete tried to do it by hitting both bloomberg and sanders simultaneously. a lot of the candidates were focussed on bloomberg. if they do that too much, the polls will close in california in two weeks or less and they'll see bernie with a lead that's ultimately unsurmountable, something they can't catch. >> clare and jason, who does that worry? >> i think if you step back from it, bernie support is solid. but it's around 25%. it means there's 75% of the democrats that aren't for bernie. that's not the way we want to go into an election this year. so you have to hope that there's some coalescing and the thing that's bad about this point in the campaigns is that it's very hard to do that gut check moment where you got to get out. and some of these candidates are

going to have to get out. either voluntarily or they're going to just the money is going to dry up. maybe not for nevada and not for south carolina and maybe they stick around until super tuesday, but robert and i were talking earlier. after super tuesday, it's about a third of the delegates that have been awarded. if there is a thinning of the crowd, because you've got four candidates competing with the same pool of votes. versus bernie, in fact, now you have five. elizabeth is going after the votes too. you have bernie with his group, and then you've got the other five candidates going after the rest. if there's only two of them, then all of a sudden this gets much more competitive. >> that's exactly what the 2016 republican primary resulted in. i mean, and i'm not saying anything about these people having any policies in common. i'm not even making the conduct or behavior their campaign analogy. i'm saying structurally you've got one polarizing figure with a

fervent base. marco rubio, chris christie and ted cruz, split up everybody else for way too long for anybody to catch can him. >> this is why we have contested conventions. i want to see a contested convention. it will be the one test that we actually need for bernie sanders. for all the noise that he's making, i want to see -- someone started asking him about that. bloomberg talked about it. how his staff behaves. how his supporters behave. how they're treated the working families party. i want to see bernie sanders and his great and wonderful revolution go into a contested convention and try to wrangle those people when he needs to get a 44-year-old super delegate from central illinois to go to his side. i want to see him have to sit in a room with elizabeth warren who called a liar on the national stage and say will you release your delegates? that will prove whether or not

the revolution works. he needs a contested convention. if he can't do that, the democrats should have another candidate. >> you picked a cruel way to make a living. steve kornacki is standing by. we don't know the results of iowa. we have three waves coming in today. out of nevada. national chairman couldn't say whether we're going to know the results of nevada on the same day. what's going to happen on saturday in nevada? >> there's a question of what's going to happen in nevada. one thing to keep in mind is a lot has already happened in nevada. this is turnout in 2016 for the caucuses. about 84,000. about 117,000 in 2008. the state democratic party in nevada tells us already through early voting which they have not had in the past, about 75,000 people have already voted in the nevada caucuses. more will show up saturday. we do know that nevada is a heavy and i mean heavy early voting state. two out of three votes in the 2018 elections in nevada.

the general election were cast early. if that is what happens here, then we talk so much about what happened on the debate stage tonight. could it affect warren on saturday or sanders? it may not effect anybody on saturday because so many of the votes have already been cast in nevada. and of course, michael bloomberg, we're talking about the effect on him. he isn't contesting iowa. where bloomberg is contesting things, you've been talking about suturer tuesday. over 1300 delegates up for grabs. if bloomberg takes a hit in a debate, let me give you a sense of what's happening in the super tuesday states. bloomberg's focussed on them while we're focussed on nevada and south carolina. this is television ad spending right now in virginia, for example. 99.966% of all political ads on the air in virginia right now are for michael bloomberg. dropping $4 million. donald trump's reelection

campaign is dropping $1400 right now. every other democrat, zero. this is playing out in super tuesday state after super tuesday state. bloomberg having the run of the place. what is it getting him? here was the poll this week out of virginia. it has bloomberg in a tie in virginia with bernie sanders. joe biden just behind him. a couple other super tuesday states we're getting numbers of out of. north carolina, there's bloomberg tied with bernie sanders. arkansas, there's bloomberg actually ahead by a point. these are places where he's hitting the air waves hard and nobody else is. oklahoma, bloomberg up six over sanders. and then you mention the big delegate haul in california. this is a state where the bloomberg spending has not moved the needle as much. sanders with a strong advantage there. if that holds, something like that, sanders you're talking about the ability to get ahead with delegates. this is something his campaign is counting on. big number out of california. >> steve kornacki, our thanks as we come up at the top of yet another hour.

and good morning. officially from our nbc news head quarters in new york as we come across the top of the hour. we continue our coverage of the nbc news, msnbc debate we've we continue our coverage of the nbc news, msnbc debate we've been watching from las vegas. there were several what we like to call heated exchanges throughout the evening including some between bloomberg and bernie sanders. >> we cannot continue seeing a situation where in the last three years billionaires in this country saw $850 well billion increase in their wealth. the average american saw less than a 1 % increase in his or her income. that's wrong. >> mayor bloomberg, should you exist? >> i can't speak for all billionaires.

all i know is i've been lucky, made a lot of money and i'm giving it away to make this country better and a good chunk goes to the democratic party. >> maybe your workers played a role. i want workers to be able to sit on corporate boards as well so they can be some way over what happens in their lives. >> would you support what sanders is supporting? >> absolutely not. i can't think of a ways that would make it easier for donald trump to get reelected than listening to this conversation. this is ridiculous. we're not going to throw out capitalism. we tried that. other countries tried that. it was called communism, and it just didn't work. >> i believe in democratic socialism for working people, not billionaires. health care for all, educational opportunity for all. >> senator, thank you. >> mayor bloomberg, would you --

the question was about socialism. >> what a wonderful country we have. the best known socialist in the country happens to be a millionaire with three houses. what did i miss here? >> well, you missed that i work in washington, house one. >> that's the first problem. >> living in burlington, house two. >> that's good. >> and i do have a summer camp. forgive me for that. where's your home? which tax haven do you have your home? >> new york city, thank you very much, and i pay all my taxes. >> again, these are members of the same team. it's good to see everybody getting along as they did tonight in las vegas. with us here in new york as we enter our second hour of coverage, amy stoddard, johnson johnson, david plouffe, and joy reed, host of a.m. joy weekends 10:00 a.m. on this network. in the spin room, chris matthews. and in austin texas, professor at the lbj school at public affairs of the university of texas and at the big board, steve kornacki.

a lot of folks to get to. luckily there's time. ab, i was watching you watch the coverage. what did you make of that? >> well, i thought it was a great night for bernie sanders. i thought it was a great night for donald trump. i thought it was a terrible night for the democrats. and i don't think bloomberg's bad night is going to matter given the amount of money he's spending on the ground. given the fact that a lot of voters who are going to matter later are not really watching debates. they have a presence of facebook, and on the ground, anecdotely, i cannot believe what i'm hearing about the money he's spending in all the right places with food and other things, meetings, not just those digital ads on social media. so i think he will still be in

very strong stead throughout the very consequential month of march. tonight was the night to knock down bernie and the democrats didn't do it. buttigieg tried but not effectively enough. >> it's going to argue capitalism didn't have a great outing. >> apparently, but bernie is still a millionaire. this is the thing. you can't take out bernie sanders. you're not supposed to. he's running for president. he's running for the nomination. there's a lot of people who like him. he has every right to be there and i think it's unrealistic and silly if democrats operate in the space of we have to take him out. what was shown tonight is some of his weaknesses in communicating his message which we've seen before. his inability to do anything other than gaslight america about some of the behavior of his own supporters when it comes to unions to don't fall in line with what he wants.

and bloomberg, it's not just that he did poorly. he's spending a ton of money. he has 26 offices he opened in texas. he's probably going to win in north carolina and southern states. he had a chance tonight to add personal charisma and enthusiasm above and beyond spending money. that he did not do. there was nothing charming or enthusiastic about michael bloomberg. i don't think he gained any support he's not going to have to keep paying for. >> david plouffe, same question. >> there isn't about figure skating judges or diving rates. this is how it connects to votes you need to get now. and so the truth is bernie sanders is on a trajectory to be the democratic nominee. is question chuck todd asked, he was the only one that sayed the pledged delegate winner, well,

he's probably going to be that person or it looks like now. everybody else said no. i heard you earlier like the notion that the democratic party is going to have party insiders overturn the will of the voters, i just don't think it's going to happen. so the clock is ticking. and so i think the question is the california poll that steve showed, we've still got two weeks. most of the people who are going to participate in nevada have already voted. the question is who can get into the mid 20s to high 20s or can two people? if not, sanders is going to exit march almost 70% of the delegates are going to be done by the end of march with a big lead. i think -- i agree with ab. nobody laid a glove on sanders really. one of the reasons he's a good debater is he never changes. he's consistent. elizabeth warren has a very strong debate. we'll know soon what it means from a vote standpoint. and i think mayor pete shows some strategic i think sense of i've got a problem. for me to become the main alternative to sanders, i have to take some vote from klobuchar. i've got to go after bloomberg. so that was interesting. i think he was the most strategic, but at the end of the day, this election is accelerating and happening before our very eyes. so right now -- with bloomberg, i think that's the question. does the money overcome? i wasn't surprised by the performance. he hasn't debated in ten years. he's rusty as i'll get out, and he hops out there, and again, he's never loved this part of politics.

he kind of endures it. and you can see that tonight. but there's another debate next week. he better improve the performance. even with all that money. bloomberg has done a great job of going from zero to 15. that means nothing. can he go from 15 to 30? he's not going to get there with debate performances like that. >> joy reed, i've been watching you across the counter. who is going to challenge bernie? >> well, you know, i actually think this was the worst debate that bernie sanders has had in the sense that he's never really taken incoming. i think the other candidates have been afraid to attack him before both because it stirs his supporters against you, and i think a lot of people want to hold his supporters in abeyance in case they need them at the convention. they want to bring the supporters back in.

people have really, not really gone after him in the previous debates. this time he faced the first real challenges on things that in the journalism world we talk about a lot. support is a real issue. i'm surprised nobody brought up the fact that some of the issues are on his staff. they're people that are -- we just saw his national press secretary go out on television and say that it's birtherism to ask about his health records. this is not just sort of an anonymous supporters doing it. it's a thing. i think that he had the first time he was really challenged as to will the message that he has resonate on a stage with donald trump, the person who i think presented the strongest alternative to that was elizabeth warren. warren went in with a singular mission. get bloomberg. she finally had the kind of billionaire right out of kind of the textbook of elizabeth warren's mission in life. right next to her. and she went after him over and over and over again. exposed his weakness. and took the theoretical bloomberg that a lot of us have been hearing about from older black voters, black women who said i can consider him and made him real. my daughter who is 24 who was a bernie sanders supporter in 2016 who is now a warren supporter

texted me. what elizabeth warren needs to break away from bernie sanders is a meme. she needed a meme. she got a meme tonight. people were distributing ether, for people who like hip hop, she laid out michael bloomberg. that will be a meme, and for people who haven't been paying that much attention to her, they're going to pay attention to her after tonight. >> professor, in what world, bernie sanders had a heart attack in october. he talked about it for him rather forthrightly tonight. is it because of the era we're in, because of the president we have who made it an unscheduled trip out to the army medical center on a random saturday morning and that's pretty much all we heard about it that gives a bernie sanders cover and there is seemingly very little outrage that he is not going to share his health records? >> well, part of it, brian j is the number of folks who are in their mid to late 70s who are running. in a sense, it's normalized the fact that you have such older folks who are vying for the presidency which in theory could

extend out eight years. i think in the warped world, that's normal. the other part of it, and i think where we get that hanging onto bernie, is the brand he built in 2016. we know when somebody has already grasped onto a positive vision of someone, they share positive affect with that brand, be it a car or a brand of food, in this case, a political candidate, that other information that might detract from that brand is going to be ignored. so in the case of age and really having to take the matter of age seriously, be it with bernie sanders, be it with joe biden, be it with michael bloomberg, folks who are in that camp are going to discard it.

i think that is the power with the bernie supporters. their brand is so deep. they are going to deflect away any information that's contradictory. >> chris matthews has been watching and listening to our conversation. chris, the question to you is who is going to be the challenger to bernie from that field you witnessed tonight? >> well, brian, i think the search goes on for the great moderate hero. i don't see the person tonight. i think it's tough to see it in bloomberg tonight. a great political leader. i didn't see it tonight. maybe it's there somewhere. democrats fall in love. i don't think as nixon once said to pat buchanan, if you're hear about a stop x movement, bet on

x. it's hard to go negative. four or five candidates, one with 30 plus to 30 plus guys could eventually win. i thought it was interesting all six of the candidates, i think david plouffe said they all agreed. they all agreed that bernie is the leader and will be the leader if something doesn't stop him. and they need to go for somebody. i'm beginning to think over the past week or so, it's probably elizabeth warren. they have to find somebody who can coalesce the party's left flank and also the center left flank. she could do it. the interesting thing she did tonight, she did not go after bernie votes tonight. that's a phalanx around him. what she did was different than the past. she went after the moderates. she went after buttigieg and amy and biden and she went after bloomberg. potential support there. she knows that for her to catch bernie she has to move into the middle and grab the middle. i said it to her -- she didn't deny it. her strategy now is to become

the leading moderate alternative to bernie. that's interesting. because for so many months she ran as a left best friend. that didn't work. now she's trying a different direction. it will be fascinating if you can change strategy that dramatically and win. i think she may be the one person who can do it. >> chris matthews, thank you. a question to ab before we run to a break. the rap on the democrats often is they're trying to punish success. they're trying to punish economic largesse. bloomberg had a moment where he's like what, what's happening here? what's going -- of course he made as much money as he could. was his implication. what slice of the democratic electorate and viewership will that appeal to? >> it was very interesting, because it got a really good response from the crowd. >> in the room, it did. >> yes. they sort of affirmed him mocking this conversation. i think that train has left the station for the majority of the country. it's a very pure far left wing of the democratic party argument to sit on this campaign finance issue bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are on. i think democrats just want to win.

that's why it was a strong moment for bloomberg in an otherwise sad debate. i think what david is articulating is this is kind of too late. nevada is really important in terms of tonight's attack on bernie. tonight was the night to do it. next week could be too late. they did not go after him. the moderators questioned him on his medical records and transparency. the other candidates didn't. they did not bring up the fact that he has a spokesman out smearing bloomberg making up fake heart attacks. they did not say this is an existential election in which we're letting a socialist lead our party while trump le f law. there's plenty of recent examples from today, last several hours and the previous two weeks since he was acquitted. no one had their pants on fire. no one declared this an emergency. i think nevada is really critical, and if bernie is allowed to win it, i think they'll find they're in more trouble than they thought.

>> when we come back, we'll talk about some of the fault lines in the democratic party where they translate to numbers. our numbers guy will have that when we come back. >> we release reports from two leading vermont cardiologists who discard my situation and by the way, who said bernie sanders is more than able to deal with the stress and the vigor of being president of the united states. hey, follow me around the campaign trail three, four, five events a day. see how you're doing compared to me. >> i'm actually less concerned about the lack of transparency on sanders' personal health than i am about the lack of transparency about how to pay for his health care plans. sog wherever you are - even on the bus. download now and get your first stock on us. robinhood.

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pages. i can't go to turbo tax. >> the turbo tax moment from michael bloomberg on stage tonight. steve kornacki, your role is to lift up our conversation by talking about the fault lines in this party vis-a-vis what it is we just witnessed over two hours of live television time. >> it's interesting, brian. there are a couple of major fault lines we've been following as the race has developed where we have seen some movement in the last couple of days. i want to show you that and what it could mean going forward. nationally this was the npr news hour poll this week nationally sanders in the lead by double digits. bloomberg moving up. one of the fault lines we've been talking about is age. this has been significant all campaign. if you go under 45 years old and

then 45 plus, it's like two different universes in the democratic party. here you see sanders after the new hampshire win. he's been cleaning up under 45 the entire campaign, but now his support there, you can see it's moved to over 50% in this poll. this is like half the party on one side, half the party on the other side. and sanders with under 45. 54%. the other world, 45 plus, look at this. when i say we've seen some change, it's right here. these two. bloomberg, biden. sanders a distant third with 13%. all campaign the flip side of sanders' success under 45 has been biden's dominance over 45. not anymore. that's where bloomberg has made his gain in this thing. 27%. you've seen significant movement. that's a key ingredient for bloomberg. another one, race. look at the difference between white democrats and black democrats. among white democrats a double digit advantage for sanders. bloomberg getting traction. older white voters in particular. and you see everybody else. look at black voters. for a year we've been saying joe biden cleaning up among the black vote.

look at this. 31, 28. biden leads. this is as close as i've seen it in a national poll. 31% for biden among black voters. 28 for sanders. and you see the only other candidate in double digits, michael bloomberg with 16%. you see sanders has climbed a little bit with black voters. bloomberg has come from zero to 16. and all of it came from biden who was running sometimes over 50% with black voters. we're starting to get nevada, south carolina beyond, states with significant black populations. one out of four votes cast across all the democratic parties will end up coming from black voters. this is significant. the final significant number is and their ability to potentially

build larger band wagons, to expand their coalitions, how much good will do they have to tap into potentially among democrats? that's what this question gets at. this is the favorable unfavorable score among democrats for all these accounts. i think this is noteworthy. bernie sanders, we talk about him as a factional candidate. somebody with a clear group of supporters who maybe is different from the rest of the party. but he has a stronger favorable score than any other democratic candidate and by the way, look at the bottom of this list. it's michael bloomberg at least right now with the lowest score there. only plus 14. >> steve, thanks. let's go around the horn, including our guest in texas. joy reed, what do you make of that. >> there's a clear generation of divide among younger white and voters of color who really very much -- i mean, for a lot of them you were too successful. barack obama is the floor.

for them the idea that we're going to follow donald trump whose fundamentally changing the country for much worse, that the idea to fix that is to go to sort of a moderate, sort of a mushy moderate candidate is unacceptable to a lot of young voters. they're saying flip the tables. they don't feel they have a future in this country and be able to be a michael bloomberg. because they feel they're completely locked out. we underestimate the rage and the anger that working class people of all races, younger people feel about income inequality and the extreme distance between a michael bloomberg and them. even a bernie sanders and them. they don't even think they're ever going to get there. they really do not want to have a john kerry or a hillary clinton style candidate. they're not going to accept it. then you have older voters who just see donald trump as an existential threat to their kids. they say he has to go. they almost don't care who it is. just get him out. and these two generations are not having the same conversation about this election at all. one candidate has to be able to unite the generations, and i don't know who can do it. i do think warren has the

biggest claim on it because she sort of speaks to the bernie wing and moderate wing. i don't see anybody else who can do it. >> before we continue in new york, let's head out to texas. professor watching at ut austin, hook them horns. you spend a lot of time studying what joy just said. generational and economically. >> the numbers we saw earlier that steve brought up show that very stark divide by age, but what is really important that we don't forget is that generation difference in terms of turnout. so even though we see the stated preferences of younger votes, say the 18 to 29 or the 29 to 45, let's keep in mind that they vote at much lower rates historically. in 2016 of 18 to 29-year-olds, we had a turnout of 46% compare

that to the turnout for 65 plus voters. that's 71%. so we have to contextualize our numbers when we're looking at generation divides. in statistics, we need to weight the older folks heavier. that being said, even though historically younger folks don't turn out at the same rates, we saw something interesting in 2018. in 2018 we did see an increase of about 50%, i would say, among youth across the nation and turning out and getting mobilized and getting activated and wanting to come out and vote for democratic candidates. i'm cautiously optimistic, brian. but at the same time i'm not going to throw out all the data we've seen for decades in terms of those voting patterns. so don't count the moderate lane, the ones who have lower numbers with those younger folks, because we have to always look at who is turning out at the end of the day. >> you couldn't see it in new

york but everyone was nodding. no one nodded more than your fellow professor jason. you were nodding a lot. >> give than we studied in grad school together. >> i didn't know that. >> she was the smart one. i was copying off of you. yeah. not only is this true, but also you have to look at the overall numbers. the overall numbers still show that in head to headlineups, it's joe biden or michael bloomberg that end up beating trump. i think a lot of these issues we see, bernie sanders has improved with black voters. he's at 28%. that's an improvement. joe biden has fallen with those voters. but all this says to me all of this is in flux. two weeks ago michael bloomberg was at 22%. now he's done to 15. i think that a lot of people are desperate, and joy and i have talked about this. especially with minority voters, especially with african american voters, they're desperate to just see trump out of office. i think there's a difference between who people like, two people support, and who they think can win.

when we start getting into questions of who we think can win, you'll see changes in dynamics. i don't think anyone tonight, and this is i think always important. i don't think anybody tonight convinced me they could win. michael bloomberg told me he had a lot of money to throw at the problem. joe biden said i'm the guy you might have liked last year. i don't think bernie sanders proved he can win or mayor pete. i don't think amy klobuchar can't even name the president of a neighboring country. i doubt she can win. that's going to be another question that comes into play. and i think in particular when you talk about turnout, yes, bernie sanders does get latinos. they're spread out. but the african american vote base, who has spent the amount of time that's going to be needed to get that group to come out and vote enthusiastically? the only group black seem to be enthusiastic about is joe biden but he's disappointing everyone. another break in the coverage. when we come back, amy stoddard and david plouffe among the voices talk about the guy we haven't talked about a lot tonight. we saw him arriving live where? in las vegas. that would be the president of the united states.

>> i'm the only one here i think that's ever started a business. is that fair? okay.

we have not been talking enough about donald trump. and what -- let's talk about donald trump. because he signed that tax bill that helped the wealthy and he went down to mar-a-lago and said to all his friends, you just got

a lot richer. that is exhibit a, and i can tell you the hard working people in nevada were not in that room. >> we are back. let's talk about donald trump, then, amy stoddard. take the senator's hint. >> again, i think that the best moment that michael bloomberg had was his first moment when he said i made a lot of money and i'm giving a lot of money to the democratic party and i'm giving it to beat donald trump. people were excited. they want to get rid of donald trump, and the last two weeks have been among the most horrifying of the entire trump presidency. there was more than enough for the candidates to work for. and klobuchar finished with in the closing remarks the drive to replace donald trump. i just don't think the candidates spent enough time on it.

i don't think they articulated why the last ten days have been a dramatic ill trump administration of the threat of a second trump term. if he's doing it now and facing reelection -- i think that's something they need to keep in mind for the next debate which is just days away. >> david plouffe, the problem with the debates is you have these media questioners. you can't just say what you want to say. so much has been made of this process being about purity testing. isn't that on us? we get to drive these conversations in the questions. we have honed down as teams of moderators. you're going to get what you're going to get. >> it's bounded, but you know, you need to say what you want to say. any good candidate and team knows two or three things they want to say regardless of the question. you're bounded a little bit. i would say having been through the debates before, they're trying to win the nomination.

the people who will decide this election, swing voters in the general election are not watching this debate. they're not watching this program. so let's not say we missed opportunities to hit trump, because the people in the general election aren't paying attention. i do think that -- i actually think sanders has the cleanest electability message. he says it's going to take a lot more turnout. i can do that. i have my questions about that. i think they all could have been crisper on that. to raise the stakes. and if this gets down to a two or three-person race, i think you'll see more christmas there aimed at sanders. whether it's right now or at a convention, there's not a lot of evidence that the polling that suggests all the other democrats beat trump by ten and he loses by ten. it's relatively close. if that were to change, i think it would undermine his case dramatically. but it hasn't yet. >> and that's the thing. i think that will be the real challenge. but i was saying before, it's not so much that you would get to contested convention and it's overruling the will.

let's say you get to a contested convention because i think bernie sanders is going to be the being leader. i think everybody on stage admitted it's going to be him. but let's say he gets there with 14 00 and the polls in august when we're at the convention are showing trump 49, sanders 47. then you've got a real challenge on your hands, because your delegate leader is not looking like the guy who can win the presidential election. all of this is speculative, but these are the kinds of things that are making everybody on the stage say we're nervous and i'm not going to give up my delegates. i don't know what this guy is going to look like. this was the same argument bernie had against hillary clinton. >> the bernie sanders is at 1500 and the next closer is 700, i don't think there's any way he's not going to be the nominee. if somebody else emerged as the alternative and is able to get within 100, you might have a

debate. it has to happen now. we're not sitting in a conference room with a white board saying like, if in two weeks tonight brian when you're on this stage, someone has not emerged as someone who in the rest of march after -- so basically somebody has to survive super tuesday in my view. so when you've got michigan and missouri and washington and ohio and arizona and florida and wisconsin, big states producing delegates, they're able to not just be the second place person but win some of these states. >> and the question is how do you do that and do you have enough money? the one thing is the debates can help you fundraise to get through super tuesday. you have to get through california, texas, all the other states. it's expensive. tonight did anyone increase their fundraising numbers? did somebody create a moment that helps make the case why they should get more money? you're going to price out a lot of these guys won't make it through super tuesday because they're going to be out of cash. so the question becomes can -- sanders is the one who never has that problem. because he has a self-regenerating money machine that will never stop. none of his people are going to

walk away and they're going to keep giving him money. and i think it's too late. if we're starting to talk about at a brokered convention, sanders goes in with the most delegates and doesn't get the nomination, that's civil war in the democratic party. that's not how you beat donald trump. >> no one quarreled with your triage of bloomberg's performance tonight. is there a way his answers could get better fast? like, does he need a new -- i designed a computer no one else thought of and i made a lot of money as a result? >> he probably shouldn't say i'm a microsoft buy like pete buttigieg. that wasn't the way to go, but i'm surprised as the former mayor of new york he didn't say i'm the mayor of new york city. donald trump just penalized my whole state and tried to strong

arm on us on his insane immigration views. whatever you think of me personally, and whatever you think of the things i've said, i've apologized for them, but that's worse. the southern district of new york, my state, is being attacked by the president of the united states. whatever you think of me, i can give all the philanthropy in the world, you don't want that man to be your president. i'm not running to be the most popular democrat. i can never be more popular than any of the people on their stage. they have been democrats longer than i have, but i have the ability to beat donald trump. i don't know why he didn't switch every answer to that. because that pivot is a lot better than saying the ndas were consensual. >> that's why i asked joy reed that question. >> another break for us. when we come back, we'll talk about -- a lot of things got by tonight, bernie sanders' answer on climate change among them. (sensei) when i started cobra kai,

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the scientists are telling us that if we don't act incredibly boldly within the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done not just in nevada, not just to vermont and massachusetts but to the entire world. joe said it right. this is an existential threat. you know what that means chuck? that means we're fighting for the future of this planet. >> we are back, and to amy stoddard, a quick quonbo existential threat on environment. one thing everything on that stage agreed on tonight. >> i think the bernie supporters like the fact that he's a radical and proposing $90

trillion in programs we can't pass. i think the rest of the audience members want a president who will address the climate crisis, period, and have not been on any websites comparing the plans. that's why it was pete's best moment when he said the pivot point is 2020. if we don't elect someone to stop donald trump and enact this change, it's going to be too late for the planet. again, as you might have noticed, brian, i'm focussed on the electability argument. and so that was the opportunity that was well-taken by pete buttigieg. but those audience members and the voters in nevada and next week in south carolina are not comparing plans, and when armageddon happens according to each website. i'm sure it makes the bernie people happy, but i don't think anyone is listening. they want a democratic president who is going to get back in the paris climate accord and proceed accordingly with addressing a crisis. >> speaking of the voters who were, after all, in the key

audience tonight, joshua johnson is back with us. if you know his voice, that means you're an npr listener. but he's ours now, and importantly tonight, he set out some -- i guess bait -- to get comments from members of the audience about what they saw tonight. >> bait sounds sneaky. >> i know. well, yeah, that's true. we use it for lobster, and that's not fair. >> exactly. i just asked people if they would share their thoughts about the debate? electability, i saw with regards to pete buttigieg, joe biden, amy klobuchar and elizabeth warren. not a lot on the bernie sanders, but the sanders supporters were numerous. here are three of the comments that stood out to me. these are not necessarily representative examples. three that stood out. patty in nevada east of reno, patty wrote i will caucus for pete. i applaud pete's intelligence tt

his views. i especially like the fact that his health care plan allows for keeping private insurance while also covering those in need. several commenters had something to say about a number of the candidates. wendy in las vegas tweeted elizabeth warren is on fire. she's strong and aggressive. glad i voted for her in early voting. biden looks good too. pete is doing well. bloomberg will probably take his money and go home. too bad he runs great ads. we heard from a number of people in super tuesday states. quite a few commenters in virginia.

some in southern california. one in texas that got a lot of likes in facebook. pete's attacks on a amy have soured me a little bit on him. bloomberg was on the defensive all night. i think biden, bernie, pete and amy all had good moments but hey, any of these folks on stage will get my vote in november. that's a no-brainer. also worth noting, quite a few people commented bloomberg is totally off their list after tonight. and a lot of people were very unhappy with the tone of the debate. some people blame the candidates for letting it degenerate to yelling and screaming. to keep it real, some people blamed us for not doing a more aggressive job of moderating. one voter in virginia, a super tuesday state said she went in undecided. she remains undecided and called the debate in her words, discouraging at best. >> david plouffe, i want to show you the front page of tomorrow's new york daily news. your picture newspaper. bloom goes the dynamite, about the former mayor's performance. and david, ab made the point that the vote in nevada is still on the move. it is still a fluid thing, and let's not let them entirely off the hook. let's remember the national

party chairman said today, we may or may not do results on the actual day of the vote. they're going to do of these three rounds of data just like iowa. so this could be another interesting weekend. and sooner or later, there may be questions about this party's ability to hold elections. >> well, caucuses. >> caucuses. >> we talked about this as it relates to iowa. i understand the motivation. i think the original sin behind what happened in iowa is the three sets of data. caucuses are not primaries. if you want a primary, have a primary. that's probably where we're headed in future cycles. you know, my guess is -- my hope is what they were doing was a little cya. they expect to be able to get results out. but they want to sort of underpromise and over deliver. and because so much vote came in early, that gives them a head start. obviously in some of the counting which is great. i think that new york daily news headline it shows joy reed was talking about this. who is going to be able to raise

money coming out of this? elizabeth warren will. that's a lifeline. michael bloomberg is not an incumbent president. but every incumbent president, and i was part of one of those disasters, loses a debate. they've been astride the world for a long time. they haven't been challenged directly. they probably don't like to put the practice in. bloomberg has not debated in years. i think this was probably rough for him. even if he put the time, that's no substitute for live fire. the question is between now and tuesday, he only has seven days. if he has two bad debates in a owe, maybe he doesn't lose what he's got now, but it's not even a bronze medal. it's a half billion dollars for a few delegates. >> >> and tonight was layups. open net. grab your metaphor. they were easy pivots he could have made. >> warren came out hot. right? and so i think anybody struggles

with that. but the tax question. the nda question. he should have been prepared. he seemed like he got stronger as the debate went on. maybe it's because he didn't have the arrow pointed directly at him. that will be the question. he can't have two eggs in a row. >> steve kornacki, we know you're going to be busy on saturday. i think what people struggle with getting their heads around is when was the last time you walked into vote and you were asked not just your first choice, giver us two more. what would your second and third choices be? >> they've been doing that. they don't call them ballots for the caucuses. they call them preference cards. that's what this early voting has been in nevada. you go to the early voting sites. they hand you a preference card and you write down first choice, second choice, third choice, fourth choice. one of the reasons why saturday there's suspense on whether we will see results on saturday, what david was talking about, there is now this now mandate in effect for 2020. never had it before in the democratic caucuses. a mandate to provide three sets

of results. the first choice, the reallocated preference. what happens when in your local precinct the local candidate doesn't get 15%. they realign. you want that total reported out and then you want the delegate total. you want all three of those that put out there. what happened in iowa, what really slowed things down and i think really made it a mess in iowa. there was a lot of attention paid to that app, and that was certainly part of it. the other problem was they had to show the math. they had never in 50 years been asked to show the math. and they were finding out the numbers weren't adding up in a lot of cases. no guarantee that won't happen in nevada. >> professor, i note you're still listening to us in texas which happens to be about five of the most fascinating states

all within one boundary. >> yes. >> super tuesday is coming. and you also have students who are curious as to why there are caucuses. why not just walk in as novel a concept as this is, and place a vote for your preferred candidate? >> right. and also think about the context in which caucuses came about. it was a very different time in our country. first of all on terms of the makeup, the diversity of our country. i'm thinking of iowa here. and also the size of our country. we have grown exponentially. and so all of these complicating factors that caucuses bring, just muck things up when we are looking at the population numbers that we have now. in theory some folks could make the case that it's very good for an engaged democracy. for deliberative democracy.

i believe caucuses suppress one's voice because you may feel the peer pressure of saying that's my boss over there, and they really support this one candidate. are they going to think differently of me if i'm voting for this other person? i personally don't think they're very democratic, but others could argue otherwise. all of that being said, we're at a different point in time. we need to streamline the voting process. let's look at what's been happening with our voting process in the last two election cycles where we're seeing meddling by foreign governments. we need to make things simpler and more secure. caucuses don't allow that. they overcomplicate things and frankly, being in texas, i wish my vote were heard earlier on. because the order of things matter in life. the fact that iowa goes first and then new hampshire, and then nevada weights things. why is it that us in texas can't have an equal say in who is going forward.

personally i'm for having a general primary day. i know many will disagree, but let's sort things out in one swoop and not spend so much time going back and forth. ultimately that hurts the party. it weakens it when they're going up against the candidate in the general election. >> a lot to react to there, jason. there's a reason why i asked our guests what if it were a secret ballot before the u.s. senate? and that was a game-changer with their answer. >> yeah. good chance the president wouldn't be here. one of the things we talked about in political science, anyone who has worked on a campaign is that literally the order of names on a ballot can sometimes change whether you're elected. if this system had started with nevada and then south carolina, we don't know where mayor pete and amy klobuchar would be. it would probably with bernie and biden. this order question which castro talked about is also a very real and legitimate one. this is a larger structural issue. the democrats can't afford another screwup in nevada the way we had in iowa. you seen mean girls where the principal is like i'm going to hold you here all night, and can i only hold them until 4:00? that's what we have on saturday. for weeks we've been hearing we're not having the same mistakes in nevada.

and now we're hearing well, we may not really have everything ready on saturday night. this is a problem. the democratic party has to look competent. they have to look like they can manage these things. they have to make it look like the agents in the activists and the organizers on the ground, the effort they're putting in is going to be calculated. if it can't do that, that diminishes turnout and enthusiasm which are going to need to be competitive in the fall. >> and ab, you joke at your own expense, having spent a lot love your life in and around politics that you're often the wasn't on the various broadcasts we do arguing about electability. in this case, on the part of the democrats. >> yeah.t driving the majority of the voters in the democratic party. and as i said, it's the most unifying issue. well, it was until bernie

sanders prominence as a potential soon to be nominee, delegate leader because of the argument of medicare for all. donald trump has no health care argument. his biggest liability for the republicans and donald trump. their health care plan as a medicare nominee for all. if the democrats nominate someone with a ridiculous plan, and can be characterized as leading us into venezuela, breaking the economy and ruining our health care system, then donald trump has a health care plan. so none -- these are all points i expected people to be making tonight in this very important moment. because i believe that nevada counts despite the early voting. i don't think this electability issue is being made enough. >> i can only offer you thirty-seconds? >> i think bernie sanders' supporters think he is the most electable and he has a lot of them. i think if this race narrows in march, and that's what i think is the battlefield. and it gets down to maybe two

candidates, i think the electability issue will get more pronounced. it has to. i'm not ready to say bernie sanders can't win. i think donald trump could lose to any of these people. there's no doubt that medicare ups the degree of difficulty. i was surprised that people like mayor pete went at it. biden went at it. but i think people haven't been as crisp as they need to. if they believe bernie sanders is a liability because of that, they really have to have one of those moments. maybe not quite the elizabeth warren bloomberg moment, but the moment that turns into a meme. we haven't had that yet. people are hinting around at it. and debates are about precision. you have to land your lines perfectly with the right cadence and understand what kind of video clip are we trying to create? i don't think they've done that yet on the electability. >> joshua, the control room asked me to tell you we owe you. we have to go to a break. >> well, i'll say briefly based on the comments i got, who knows exactly what electability means, whether it's being pugnacious or having a great platform or being

a unifier. the comments tonight were all over the place. >> our thanks to all our guests who were with us all the way, and our coverage continues right after this.

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get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again! mr. bloomberg had policies in new york city of stop and frisk which went after african-american and latino people in an outrageous way. >> i would like to talk about who we're running against, a billionaire that calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesbians, and no i'm not talking about donald trump, i'm talking about mayor bloomberg. >> i welcomed mayor bloomberg to the stage. i thought he shouldn't be hiding behind his tv ads. >> he has stop and frisk, throwing close to 5 million young black men up against a wall. >> we shouldn't have to choose between one candidate who wants to burn this party