i can talk to these friends for another hour but we are out of time. my naings to con nan, andrew, eugene and elise. "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts right now. ♪ ♪ > . [ no audio ] -- start of tonight's democratic debate. for the seven candidates on stage tonight this will be the last debate before south carolina's primary on saturday and the last debate before super tuesday one week from today. which means tonight could be the last stand for some candidates on that stage. some campaigns are signaling they think it could also be the field's last stand to make a

case against the front runner, bernie sanders. in the wake of the bernie sanders decisive nevada win this weekend and amid tightening polls in south carolina nearly every campaign right now is telegraphing some kind of attack on the front runner tonight. after last week's poor performance michael bloomberg's camp is signaling that the former new york city mayor might go nuclear by digging up decades old comments from sanders about women, race and sex. joe biden's team is going after sanders about his plan to pay for medicare for all and is also questioning sanders' past relationship with president obama. pete buttigieg who has been one of the more out spoken critics of sanders is trying to call him out for comments he made on "60 minutes" this weekend that were complimentary of fidel castro. then there's tom steyer's camp, they are signaling he is going to attack sanders on the issue of socialism and that his socialist policies are bad for the country. oh, and then the potential wild card tonight after the news broke a few days ago that intel officials briefed sanders about

russia preferring him to win the democratic nomination, so you have that, too. everyone on stage tonight has to grapple with this, the sanders campaign has survived a literal heart attack by the candidate and he isn't even technically a member of the democratic party, yet he is the front runner on that stage tonight. not any of them. something everybody needs to think about to see if spaghetti on the wall against sanders works. for more i'm joined by five nbc road warriors, i want to start with shaquille brewster, josh lederman, vitali on warren, hillyard on buttigieg. let's go to shaq first. okay. the incoming this time is definitely coming at bernie sanders. last week he was going to share the fire with bloomberg and that was a big benefit to him. tonight he's clearing going to be the focal point. are they ready? >> well, sanders was asked that last night and he said he is absolutely ready. i talked to the campaign and

they said they expect these attacks to come, that they are prepping them for him. they see -- as they see it for many of the other candidates on this field or on that stage it will be one of their final times to take their real shot at senator sanders with this big national audience. senator sanders is ready, being prepared and ready to defend those policies that we always hear from. a good example of what we plan to hear from senator sanders is what you saw last night when he released the list of pay for's. there was nothing new on that list. they talked about medicare for all, college for all, free tuition, but what you saw was it simply put all the pay for's in one document to senator sanders is able to say i detailed it for people to see, it's there on my website and i'm answering these questions. you're getting a hint they're ready for it, preparing for the attacks but we will see what lands on the debate stage. >> what's interesting, shaq, is what you're saying is they are more concerned about the attacks from biden and buttigieg which have been about how to pay for his big plans. are they not worried about the

stuff from the uber past, fidel castro, sandinistas, the weird fictional writings he has made about rape fantasies and things like that. it seems like are they more dismissive of those hits? >> there's a lot there that can come up and we've talked about how much -- for someone who has been on the national stage for so long there's plenty of things that people can come up with. what you heard from his campaign manager it was during an interview on msnbc he said, look, they are not as concerned with that because this is someone who is known for authenticity. he tells it like it is. he tells his own opinion whether or not that hurts him politically. so they're saying that he's going to say if he likes something that fidel castro did with this literacy program he's going to say that despite it hurting him. you look at the other candidates and listen to what the other candidates are saying, they're saying this is exactly the point. these opinions that he has can bring down the rest of the democrats in the party. it will be interesting to see how candidates straddle that

line. they want to attack him, want to draw that contrast but he is not going to back down. this is something he's been believing for a long time and he is going to continue to believe it on that debate stage. >> it's the great strength that they believe they have, the tell it like it is candidate on the democratic side. anyway, shaq brewster starting us off. let's go to team bloomberg, josh lederman is covering the bloomberg campaign. josh, it's the bloomberg campaign today that's telegraphing they want to dig into his personal past rather than essentially the professional past. that's tough to do on a debate stage. >> it is tough to do, chuck, and typically a campaign does not like to signal what exactly their strategy is going to be in a debate, they want to keep their cards close to the vest, but in this case bloomberg campaign officials feel that he is going to be better when he's on offense as opposed to when he's on defense, which is the situation that he was in in the last debate that did not work

out real well for him. they're trying to gear up for him to be in attack mode and part of that is showing people in advance, look, bernie sanders may have been in the senate for a long time but that doesn't mean that his record has gotten the same level of scrutiny that mike bloomberg's has even just in this crash course of vetting over the last few weeks since he became a viable candidate. so today they have been dripping out old comments they found from sanders that are really raising some eyebrows as well as making clear they plan to go hard after parts of his record that have already been litigated such as his record of support from the nra, his past on gun control. >> are you getting a sense, josh, that whatever they do tonight they're going to reinforce with paid television ads tomorrow? >> well, we know they are already spending upwards of half a billion dollars between television and online ads. they haven't used much of that to really go negative on the tv

airwaves and that's really the big question because once they starting to really negative against the person who could very likely be the democratic nominee, there could be some blow back if they're seen as weakening the person who ultimately may be the only chance the democrats have to unseat president donald trump. >> all right. josh lederman in the spin room in charleston. thanks very much. let's move over to mike mamali and the joe biden campaign. this couldn't be a bigger debate than it is tonight for joe biden. there's not a bigger week in his political -- basically his entire political career is on the line in the next seven days. do they have that urgency with them tonight? >> oh, absolutely, chuck. i mean, for joe biden and his campaign the last few weeks have all been about trying to build momentum to raise money to build more momentum to raise more money to keep him going, but this is of course the fire wall state for him and we've heard him now waiver a bit on whether

he sees it as his fire wall but they know that he needs to win and win big here. that's why it's one of the trickiest debates for him to have to prepare for. on the one hand he isn't the national front runner, very clearly that is bernie sanders, they plan to go after sanders as he's been going after him since october on medicare for all but also as you mentioned on his relationship with president obama, but he is still very clearly the front runner in this state so there is a mix of preparing for the incoming that might still come from the other candidates on stage, especially tom steyer and tom steyer who they think they need to try to make sure is put to bed in the way that he was in nevada. the support he had in nevada appears to be soft, they want to make sure that happens tonight and that's why private prisons is something you are going to hear raised gen tonight. >> i was just going to say the only person that's whacked steyer on stage is joe biden about three or four debates ago. i remember being he read the op o on steyer and he laid into him

and steyer was left speechless, did not see it coming. that's got to be part of their strategy tonight, right, is to delegitimize steyer a little bit. >> reporter: that's right, because he's been spending so much money not just on the air but on the ground here and his african-american support numbers are there to show for it. so for joe biden if you want to, you know -- you know you can't compete with bernie sanders in the same way on young african-americans support, but steyer has clearly ate into his support on older african-americans. let's face it, chuck, he needs to not win by four or five points, he needs to win probably with upwards of 40% or more here in terms of his vote share. >> totally agree. >> reporter: if that's the case it's steyer who is his opponent here and no one else on the stage other than that. >> that's an interesting way of putting it. not all wins are created equal the saturday before super tuesday. that is for sure. team biden, thanks very much. >> now the most unknown aspect of tonight's debate is elizabeth warren. the one candidate that has not

telegraphed what she's going to do tonight. ali vitali is covering the warren campaign. they are the wild card for all of us tonight watching. what is elizabeth warren going to do beating up bloomberg was good for her financially but did nothing for her in nevada, sanders is still the candidate they all are chasing. >> reporter: and, look, that was also the question after the last debate. she had a great debate performance in going after michael bloomberg, the campaign still feels like he is the perfect foil for her so i imagine we're only going to see more of that tonight on the stage but the reality is true just like it was last week in nevada, bernie sanders is the front runner. when i asked elizabeth warren after the last debate if it was a missed strategy to go after bloomberg not bernie sanders, she said, no, she felt comfortable with the choice. that leaves the reality tonight she's going to have to at some point contrast with bernie sanders. the thing is they are the same on a lot of policies in terms of the goals that that he want to get to, but in terms of actually getting those policies enacted

they are different on the path that they would take. it's an unexplored avenue on one of the differences between them, even just take medicare for all, elizabeth warren last fall faced a ton of questions how she would pay for t whose taxes would be impacted by it and what her path would be to enact it. bernie sanders hasn't answered many of those questions. he put out sort of a list today of how he would pay for these certain things, perhaps in anticipation of this moment of differentiation coming up, but it's really up to elizabeth warren to elucidate the differences between these two candidates. i know there is a difference between contrast and attack. we have seen her contrast but at a certain point you have to give voters a little bit more than we're different on arcane senate filibuster rules. voters need something to latch on to beyond just process and elizabeth warren has yet to give that to them and she needs to, frankly. >> and it's very tough, very tough to say, no, i know you're hopeful about doing it this big way but i'm going to do it in a smaller way that eventually gets us to the big way. it may be rational but that

doesn't fire up voters. >> exactly. >> ali vitali with team warren, thanks very much. finally let's close out with vaughn hillyard, pete buttigieg, they are excited about getting the endorsement of what they hope is still an influential newspaper in columbia being the columbia state. look, i assume they know that they have -- a lot of people with going to start questioning their ability to keep going if they do not perform well in south carolina. are they appear of that? >> reporter: yeah, and i was talking to a senior campaign official about this and they said they are not blind to the fact that they need to finish into a strong top three in the state in order to make a legitimate claim to staying in this race and that amy klobuchar and elizabeth warren and tom steyer should be the individuals to exit. this is a campaign that continues to maintain that, you know, they had relatively low name recognition to the only coming into the race but still when you are looking at a lot of

these states, they didn't go up on television in super tuesday states until literally today. michael bloomberg has put more than $100 million on to the airwaves in these states. for pete buttigieg they say, look, iowa, new hampshire, and nevada, when you look at the exit polling coming out of those states for voters that said they made their decision in the last several days they turned to the greatest share to pete buttigieg and they believe that they cannot only outperform here in south carolina, chuck, but also moving to those super tuesday states. >> the nevada result, though, to me was a big of a wake-up call, it was the first time they seemed to underperform where their organization always overperformed polls, it didn't happen this time. they didn't really overperform anything. it does feel like he has hit a minority voter wall. >> reporter: yeah, and they laid claim over the last months, i was at an event in allen dale county with him back in december and he suggested that he understood that he had to earn the vote and this campaign hoped

that once people got to know pete buttigieg and what was in his heart that they would turn to him, but when you saw those entrance polls out of evidence da at least our numbers had him 2%, 3% black voters and 10% among latinos. it comes to reality a at what point in pete buttigieg talk about humility as he talked about in north charleston enough. look at four years ago, bernie sanders we should note compared to hillary clinton, hillary clinton walked away with about 84% of support among african-americans in south carolina. that's where the conversation about experience comes in. you can give a good speech and you can say you're listening and you can make campaign stops from alabama to south carolina, but at some point is it a question of, you know, as a former mayor of south bend, indiana, it takes more than a couple months and more than a couple campaign stops. >> that's a great way of looking at it. bernie sanders spent four years now trying to make inroads with african-americans in the south and perhaps he's starting to make some inroads and sometimes

it's going to take that long of a time when you come from a place that doesn't have a lot of african-americans in it. shaq, josh, mike, ali and vaughan. thank you all. up ahead, bernie sanders is now the odds on favorite to be the democratic nominee. some in the party are panicking about it. i will ask dnc chair tom perez how he's dealing with the bernie factor. recall, not long ago ♪ ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ all we needed somebody to lean on ♪ the new xc90 plug-in hybrid electric. xc90. recharged. how we worship, or who we love.

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democrats are grappling with the very real possibility that senator bernie sanders will be their party's eventual nominee. a number of elected nominees have publicly bristled at sanders recently, whether it's over disagreements with his ideology or electability or concern that he could cost the party in key down ballot races. here now tom perez joins me now. he has the unlucky duty of trying to figure out how to keep this party united.

>> always a pleasure to be with you and your viewers. >> let me start with the cost troe comments because bob menendez, this is no conservative democrat, this is no dine know democrat in name only, here is what bob menendez wrote on a twitter thread, i'm thinking of my homestead in new jersey and we've got three new house members, they run in districts that were held by republicans. i don't know how do they trieng glat. how do they not dis affect those prison to defeat president trump but at the same time lure those who they needed to vote with them, to cross over from a purple or red to a blue seat. i think it's a losing proposition. bob menendez was angrier about the comments themselves about fidel castro and this sort of glossing over the totalitarian nature of that regime. what say you, mr. chairman? >> well, listen, chuck, i will let senator sanders and any candidate who speaks up on an issue speak for themselves on

those particular issues. what i will say about this is the democratic party has been very clear if its on significance to authoritarian leaders. this is very personal for me, my family came to this country from the dominican republic, they had to flee a brutal dictator, they got kicked out and i can't look at and nor can dom inn cans look at the resheem and see anything other than than authoritarian leader and era where human rights were not on the table and cubans and venezuelans and people who flew marcos from the philippines and elsewhere see it the same way. i think what's really important from this is to make sure that all the candidates travel, whether it's florida to talk to venezuelan americans or dom inn cans or cubans and listen to those stories because those stories are very similar to my own story. what is abundantly clear are two things, the democratic party has been very clear in standing up to authoritarian regimes and

this president hasn't. why he continues to send love letters to north korea is beyond me, why he continues to be putin's poodle is beyond me. we are less safe because of that. >> look, i saw firsthand the way the cuban government manipulated children in school, they sent bread home with the children after they taught them to be literate. i mean, that is how the authoritarian regime worked to keep kids from thinking of their parents as providers but the government to be their providers. it does tie in. donna shalela said the following, i'm hoping in the future senator sanders will take time to speak to some of my constituents before he decides to i think is the praises of a murderous tyrant like fidel castro. >> well, as i said, chuck, and i speak from my own experience as a dominican whose family was kicked out of the dominican republic because of a brutal dictator, i do think it's

important for every candidate to understand the experiences of people who have come to this country to flee brutal regimes. i know when i talk to venezuelan americans right now or venezuelan immigrants fleeing maduro the democratic party stands very, very strongly against the authoritarian leadership of maduro. and the difference between republicans and democrats is democrats are calling for temporary protected status, democrats like donna shalela and the congresswoman from south florida because we're trying to help people and make sure that those freedoms we enjoy they can enjoy. that's the difference between us and the republicans. >> are you concerned that the fear of sanders at the top of the ticket becomes self-fulfilling, that the more elected democrats complain about it, the more reporters like me ask you about those complaints over time it becomes self-fulfilling? >> well, i look -- i don't look at any one poll but i look at

trend data, chuck, and there was a poll last week i think the same day as the nbc debate and there was a poll a week earlier and what we see is the same thing, all the candidates who are on the debate stage last week are ahead of donald trump in head to head polling. we are organized everywhere. the energy that we have as democrats is palpable and we're fighting for health care, we're fighting to make sure if you have a preexisting condition you can keep your coverage. this is always the most unsettling phase of the process. you know that because you've been around the block a lot and what will happen, as happened in 2008 which was a spirited primary, you know that, is democrats came together, same they think in '92 and we are going to come together regardless of who the nominee s i support wholeheartedly and i will fight with my fiber to make sure whoever wins the nomination wins the presidency. this is about donald trump and defeating donald trump, period. >> do you regret this calendar?

i say it there is only three days between south carolina and super tuesday which seems to favor front runners and self-funders that's not very fair to anybody else. there were eight days in '08 essentially there was more than a week between the last contest and super tuesday. it does seem as if it discourages consolidation among the nonsanders wing and it only reinforces who is ever ahead. >> well, i mean, chuck, there is a lot of things that are unique about every cycle. what's unique about this cycle is that we had 25 people or thereabouts get in the race. we often start with eight candidates, we are down to eight candidates now. after saturday in south carolina and after super tuesday i'm certain that candidates who don't farewell are going to ask some hard questions about their long term viability. i don't think the calendar in and of itself is the issue that is making things unfair for any

one candidate or another and i would also remind everyone -- >> do you wish that california and texas weren't on the first national voting day of the year? i mean, it does seem to take the wind out of the sails of the entire primary calendar. >> well, we don't know that, chuck, because we haven't voted then. we also have oklahoma and arkansas and alabama and other states coming next week. we have allocated a total of 100 delegates, you need 1,991 to win the nomination. we are in mile two or mile three of 26.2 mile marathon. >> next tuesday we go from 3 to 20 in a hurry, mr. chairman. >> well, actually, no, i mean, as of next week 40% will have been allocated. we have another super tuesday coming up in the end of april on the 28th. it's the so-called primary from

rhode island down to maryland where i live and so there are going to be a lot of opportunities between now and then and that's why -- and, you know, i look at south carolina where we are tonight, yes, 10% of the vote in nevada is african-american, but there's really no african-americans at scale in the first two states. so, you know, when african-americans haven't had a full opportunity to weigh in it's hard for me to say that this race is next to over. i just don't agree with that. we have a long way to go. we've got great candidates and whoever wins i'm confident can win in november. >> tom perez, chairman of the dnc. another debate night. should be an interesting one. mr. chairman, thanks for your time. i appreciate it. >> absolutely. up ahead, the front runner under fire, all signs point to bernie sanders being the one feeling the heat tonight, but does spaghetti on the wall a good strategy. we have more on what to expect next. (howling wind)

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we are just days away from south carolina, one week from super tuesday. it's the night of a debate and bernie sanders democratic rifles if they can't hold his momentum in the next week can they stop him at all? joining me now susan paige, lonnie chen and howard fineman. susan, it feels as if it was last week, it felt you could

tell that bernie was actually going to get off the hook because everybody was obsessed with the new guy on stage. you kind of had that feeling, that was my guess going in and it was, you know, other than buttigieg who seemed to be constantly realizing, oh, that's right, bernie is the guy ahead, tonight they are all going to go after bernie. it could -- this could -- they do it strong it could strengthen him. >> sources tell me that some of the candidates are going to bring food on stage to throw at bernie sanders. >> a food fight. >> that kind of food fight. >> sources close. >> and knowledgeable say. >> knowledgeable sources. >> yeah. i mean, what are they going to do? they could throw things at bernie sanders, he will give the response that he customarily gives, he is a very -- here is what people like about bernie sanders, he is completely consistent for the past 30 years on what he thinks about things and you ask him about castro, you ask him about medicare for all he is going to give you the answer that he has given. >> howard, his weakness is his strength. he is going to tell you what he

believes. and what is interesting and this is something that i'm watching it in our polls pretty open-minded about it, there is a group of voters that vacillate between trump and sanders. they don't vacillate between trump and other democrats because sanders they think is a truth teller >> that's right. i remember in 2016 i thought out in iowa and elsewhere there was an overlap in the vin diagram there was overlap. >> and the overlap is real. >> it is real. >> it's not some silly bring, it's real. >> it's because of style and because of attitude towards politics and government in general, especially politics. the people who like both bernie and president trump do so because they like the unvarnished angry attitude towards politics and the consistent willingness to say something that the establishment considers unpopular. so with bernie he's going to take the bait on that, as you say, he's going to be consistent if he's attacked on socialism

and communism and the moscow subway and maduro and chavez and you name it, he will not give up on those points. now, i think they would much rather talk about the pay for's on medicare, which is why they put out that sheet today, but if he's attacked on all that stuff, he is a he not going to give up on it and if they get vapors here in the green room he is going to love it and so will his voters. >> lonnie, you've done debate prep. you're watching it. >> yeah. >> and bloomberg is teledprafg we're going on the weird personal stuff and biden is going -- we're going to go on your relationship with obama. there is a little bit of spaghetti at the wall. who you do you advise, say, mike bloomberg or actually elizabeth warren in a situation like this? >> well, elizabeth warren first of all has been a shil for bernie sanders. i have not seen her attack bernie sanders. >> she's subtly been going after it. >> she's been going after mike

bloomberg harder than after bernie sanders. >> it's her message. >> in terms of debate prep i guess i would say you really need to decide as a candidate what are the two or three things i want to get accomplished an you go hard at those two for three things. each candidate individually has to decide what are my three best points and you have to keep driving and driving and driving. americans will tune in and out of this debate. if you are not repeating that point over and over again it's not landing, it's not coming across. >> there is a point of this it could look desperate, the pile on could look desperate, that's what i'm wondering where he looks like a victim. >> they are desperate. i mean, this is -- this is -- >> it's true. the whole thing is going to be decided in a week if things go the wrong way for somebody. >> super tuesday is next tuesday. >> a week from today. >> they are desperate. they're desperate to break through, to change a dynamic. thanks don't always go in a straight line, maybe something will happen, but if things go in

a straight line -- >> how about tom perez talking up, hey, the primary we have that in april, another super tuesday in april. it is, i think, he is sensitive to the idea that the way super tuesday got put together you can't control it all but you could have controlled the window of when it began. >> what happened there was giant mega states like california and texas got tired of that and they crowded their way into it. >> okay. but all they're doing is -- >> yes. >> they're just handing it to the front runner. >> they're handing it to the front runner, they're shortening the story quite possibly and, see, mike bloomberg thought, great, i have so much money i'm going to -- the only one who can spend over the top money in both texas and california, it was the fact that texas and california were put in there that got the smart guys up -- >> bloomberg said, hey, we can just wallpaper this. but there is still such a thing

as free media, there is such a thing as political momentum and what might get in the way of their calculations if bernie pulls off something down here in south carolina on saturday, then goes into super tuesday, even mike bloomberg can't buy the momentum that bernie will have. >> romney 2012. romney 2012. oh, he's going to struggle in the south because evangelicals -- and, by the way, he did struggle in the south except it was a three-way race in the south and he got to win the mississippi primary. >> yes. >> because santorum and newt split the vote. that's what bloomberg and biden might do for bernie. >> it sounds a lot to me like wait for the wisconsin primary in 2016. >> don't forget the indiana primary after that. >> none of it mattered after that. donald trump was a presumptive nominee. democrats are headed for the same fate unless they wake up and realize. tom perez's answer was we've got

lots of time. >> that has to be his answer. >> i get it. >> in defense of that i get it. >> but still people around him i feel like could be sounding the alarm. >> i think they hope they might be saved by the 15% threshold. that a couple of them make 15% so bernie sanders does not get close to 1991 even if he is ahead and you have some justifiable discussion about what to do then. >> it will be an interesting test. bernie versus the combined bloomberg, buttigieg, biden delegate number after super tuesday what's bigger. >> and it's so amazing how quickly this changes. a few weeks ago the thought was, wow, if bernie breaks out that's great for bloomberg. that's everything bloomberg needs. >> yeah. >> unfortunately for the bloomberg people bernie has overshot the mark here. >> horrible debate. >> and had a horrible debate. >> susan, lonnie and showered stick around, i will speak in another -- you're going to love this one. up next, is a landslide looming as bernie sanders' campaign is being compared to george

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in a few minutes senator mcgovern will come through the door just behind me and take the stage for all that remains in this campaign. the tradition of a concession statement. this is john dancy, nbc news at mcgovern headquarters in sioux falls, south dakota. >> welcome back. that was a piece of nbc's election night coverage from 1972, an election night the democrats do not want to repeat that year after defeating establishment candidates in the democratic primary george mcgovern ran as an unapologetic liberal and lost to richard nixon. that landslide loss is being recalled as some democrats fear their current progressive front runner bernie sanders could end up replaying mcgovern's past. joining me someone who had a front row seat, gary hart,

george mcgovern's campaign manager in '72. he ran for president himself twice, even had to run against george mcgovern in the primaries back in '84. senator gary hart joins me now. good to see you. hope you're doing well. >> my pleasure. thank you. >> let me start with whether there have literally been dueling op-eds about bernie sanders is george mcgovern '72 and others saying, no, no no, there's more that's dissimilar than similar. from your vantage point how many similarities do you see and how many differences? >> i see many more differences. let me do a little comparative biography. george mcgovern ran four times statewide in a conservative state not a liberal state like vermont. he was a decorated world war ii bomber pilot and knew the experience of war and i think

his economics frankly were a lot closer to john kennedy's than they were hubert humphries. in fact, mcgovern got to be described as ultra liberal by democrats and his own party for reasons that are unclear to me and of course richard nixon capitalized on that. >> it's interesting that you put it this way because this has been something that i've wondered about, could fellow democrats essentially make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that bernie sanders will be seen as too out of the mainstream because fellow democrats keep saying he's too out of the mainstream? >> yes, i agree, they shouldn't do that. i'm in that growing camp of democrats who wish they would quit attacking each other and make their own cases in a positive way so that the strongest candidate comes forward with the best chance of defeating donald trump. >> what are some lessons that

the sanders folks could take from you and the mcgovern folks back then of the struggles you had to unite the party and the struggles they're going to have to unite the party? >> well, i'm not sure it's left to me to give anybody directions about running for president, but in any case george mcgovern did not eye peel to people in the party to join behind his candidacy after he won the nomination and actually during the campaign that went all the way to the convention he made every kind of appeal he could to the other candidates, particularly hubert humphrey to not destroy whoever ended up with the nomination, their chance of winning against richard nixon. so it's pretty obvious, i don't think there's any magic here,

that the more democrats party out of power attacks itself and its own candidates the weaker they will be in the fall. >> so how would you be running against bernie sanders right now knowing on one hand he may be a week away from being in the driver's seat of this thing, on the other hand there's still some candidates that think they have a path to this nomination ie joe biden. >> i don't think it's over yet. i'm not -- i probably live far enough away from washington to take the position that it's going to all be wrapped up in the next week or two. a lot of things can happen. i know joe biden very well, i served with him. he is durable. we will see what happens in the next couple of weeks. we may know a lot -- we will know a lot more after super tuesday, but i think the internal destruct ichbs has to

end if we have a hope of winning in the fall. >> let me ask you this, what's your advice to john hickenlooper? >> become more visible. those of us who want him to win out here and very much want to get that senate seat have not seen him campaigning too much, but he may be drowned out by the national contest. i don't know. >> is there a -- you know, what was unique about '72 is that it wasn't the down ballot disaster that some democrats feared. what did you make of that back then? >> what i would make of it now, i know that there's -- the new wave is trepidation about a whole bunch of purple state candidates for state-wide office as well as congressional districts losing if the top of the ticket loses, but as you point out that doesn't necessarily have to happen and i think voters are becoming a lot more discriminating and making

their -- casting their ballots. >> is there a bit of irony that after mcgovern's nomination which the democrats lost they basically changed the rules to prevent another george mcgovern and now the democrats changed the rules in the last four years that have made it easier for a progressive to win again. is this one of those cases where just -- we have just run out of remembering history? >> pretty much. we're doomed to repeat the past if we don't remember it. in '84 i think the basic margin between myself and vice president mondale were the so-called super delegates who were the automatic party officials and elected officials and they had pre pledged themselves to vice president mondale even before i won the new hampshire primary and a lot of primaries after that. >> well, under these rules you would have been the nominee, fair? >> one would hope. >> gary hart, i'm going to leave

it there. long time democrat from colorado. >> okay. >> so many ways that you've helped us explain a little bit of history here. i appreciate it, sir. good to talk to you. >> my pleasure. thank you. >> coming up, the senate's top republican weighs in on which democratic candidate he thinks will be easiest to beat. as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. at liberty butchumal- cut. liberty biberty- cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ that's unnecessarily complicated. make ice. making ice. but you're not because you have e*trade which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence.

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you keep the senate? >> i'm reminded of when the democrats in 1980 were all pulling for ronald reagan to be the nominee because they thought he would be the easiest to beat. i think republicans speculating about which democratic candidate for president would be the easiest to beat is foolish. i think he's being smart there. i don't trust republicans who tell me what's going on in the democratic party or democrats who tell me what's going on in the republican party. >> he doesn't like to be seen as somebody that is surprised. so he's not going to say anything. i think he's genuine there. i think he's not saying throw us into the briar patch. i think he doesn't know and i think it is a wide thing he

said. >> when you look at this, we've done it a bunch of times of it is different than the undecided voter in the trump-biden match. trump-sanders, it goes sanders. sflad is seen as a truth teller. against hillary, trump it was truth teller. but again sanders, it's sanders. >> it probably brings policy alignment a little bit more. if they're both supposed truth tellers, maybe you like the free health care. maybe you like the free college, the free everything else. >> you have the anger of corporate greed. >> all of that will be very popular from a policy perspective. if you wash out the character side. >> you don't have to talk about that, pundits shouldn't tell but voters. you don't have to go all the way

back to 1980. you can go back to 2016. >> wasn't donald trump going to lead to a land slide in senate races for democrats? >> so you don't who know is electable. you find out when you see who people will vote for. >> you find out when you go on the campaign trail. the bernie sanders rallies, there is a tremendous am of energy. >> my question is, at some point, and this is an interesting point. there are some in sanders's world who say, they will come to us. we've got to make some effort here. >> do you know what strikes me is how much they've learned, how much smarter and more sure footed his campaign is this time than in 2016 against hillary clinton. you see it all the time and you see it in the confidence in not paying much attention when he gets attacked like this. you see in it debates where he

mostly doesn't take the bait. >> what do you think we're missing about the electorate? you can say, make you couldn't get trump without clinton. maebl you can't get trump without sanders. but this is a larger story. >> i think whether bernie can capitalize on it, i don't know, i think we're seeing the end of the era of the centrist pro business democrat. >> and the same with the republicans. these people are saying, yeah, i know what bill clinton said in '92. we went with that in '92. we'll be friendly with wall street. we'll all prosper as a result after the fall of communism, et cetera. now it feels like we're at the end of. period. whether bernie is the one to capitalize on it, i don't know. he's waited 50 years to get into position for it. he said the same they know in '72 that he's saying now. >> even in losing, he will move this window. and it is a significant

accomplishment if he pulls it off. >> i think it is not just the death of the pro business democratic party. i think it is the death of parties as we know. they you have the identity of the democratic and republican parties being scrambled and i think that's what this selection about. >> these are two zop by political parties that sanders and trump have done. we'll be right back. jay? charlotte! oh hi. he helped me set up my watch lists. oh, he's terrific. excellent tennis player. bye-bye. i recognize that voice. annie? yeah! she helped me find the right bonds for my income strategy. you're very popular around here. there's a birthday going on. karl! he took care of my 401k rollover. wow, you call a lot. yeah, well it's my money we're talking about here. joining us for karaoke later? ah, i'd love to, but people get really emotional when i sing. help from a team that will exceed your expectations. ♪ doprevagen is the number oneild mempharmacist-recommendeding? memory support brand.

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that's all for tonight. i want to thank all of my guests and thank you for watching. . appreciated. we'll be back with a little post debate. "the beat" starts now. >> good evening. we have a big, big show tonight. debate night for 2020 democrats. we'll get into what is happening and who is an expert. an actual debate guru for president obama. my special guest openly condemning two supreme court justice business name. we have a special accountability fact check on all that tonight. we're going into something really important that gets talked about sometimes less with pete buttigieg's candidacy. why so many people find it historic no matter what happens in this race. we have a lot that i think will be interesting tonight for you. we begin with the facts that matter most in this democratic race. the actual delegate count.