unknowns. >> you can sign up for the newsletter at signup.axios.com. >> that does it for us for this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. all of us together, this is a moment for each of us to see and believe the best in every one of us. to look out for our neighbor. to understand the fear and stress that so many are feeling. to care for the elderly. elderly couple down the street. to thank the health care worker, the doctors, the nurses, the pharmacists. the grocery store cashier and the people restocking the shellsshell shelves. to believe in one another. because i assure you whether we do that, when we see the best in each us, we lift this nation up and we'll get through this together. that's how we've always done it. >> joe biden addressing voters

via live stream last night which was another great night for his campaign. >> boy, you know, he really, mika, we've said before, we said over the last couple super tuesdays, the democratic party shouldn't push bernie sanders out until he's ready to go. but i've got to say, it's going to be next to impossible for bernie sanders to catch up with joe biden with the states ahead, they're joe biden states. we're in the middle of a national pandemic. bernie sanders is needed in the senate to frame a lot of bills that are going to respond to this crisis right now from the is no doubt that's where he could do his most positive wor,. in the united states senate right now helping to shape these bills to represent the values and the beliefs that he's had his entire career. not on a campaign trail, this race is all but over. >> three states voted yesterday, florida, illinois, and arizona

and biden walked away with decisive victories in all of them. in florida, yesterday's biggest delegate prize, biden leads by 39 points in the illinois, biden is up by 23 points. and in arizona, biden wins 42.4% of the vote leading sanders by a little over 12 points. >> interestingly, mika, despite coronavirus fears and warnings, voters turnout in yesterday's primary, get this, this is unbelieve abu unbelievable, surpassed the number of voters in the same primaries in 2016. >> biden has passed the halfway mark to the 1,991 delegates needed to secure the democratic nomination. according to nbc news delegate count, the former vice president leads sanders by 315 delegates. 1,132 to 817. as former campaign manager to president obama's campaign, he

put it bind is for all intents and purposes, the democratic nominee. but, we in stark times when a key primary night is almost an afterthought as there are no confirmed cases of the coronavirus in all 50 states. the reported u.s. death toll from the virus has now passed 100 as the number of confirmed cases soared to more than 6,200. with new reports coming in by the hour. the number of known cases in new york city jumped from 100 yesterday to more than 900 cases. now there is confusion over whether the country's most populated city is considering a shelter in place order. after mayor bill de blasio said it is being considered. governor andrew cuomo's office pout a statement saying, quote, any blanket quarantine or shelter in place policy would require state action. and as the governor has said, there is no consideration of

that for any locality at this time. here's how the mayor responded to that last night. >> this is moving very fast. we should all be very concerned about how we find a way to slow down the trajectory of this virus. the idea of shelter in place has to be considered now. it has to be done between in our case the city and state working together, respecting the state's role. but what i was trying to say to new yorkers, this is the reality we're facing now, get ready for the possibility because it's not so distant an idea at this point. even a week ago i would have said no, that's impossible. but not anymore. >> wow. and other states are also tight hei tightenning restrictions. south carolina has directed restaurants to stop dine-in-services. florida has closed schools until at least april, canceled in-person college campuses for the rest of the semester. bars and nightclubs, limited beach gatherings to no more than ten people, and has mandated

restaurants can be no more than half full. the governor of kansas says schools will be closed for the rest of the school year, while california says it will likely do the same. amazon, meanwhile, says it will stop accepting some items in its warehouses and will focus only on necessities, meaning, fewer electronics and more home goods. let's bring in the editor and chief of the atlantic magazine jeffrey goldberg. the atlantic has been doing some great reporting on the pandemic. jeffrey, good to have you on this morning. >> thank you. >> we're at a point where this is in all 50 states. one of the biggest stories is testing, and you hear a bit of a shift among some experts or members of the administration, let less focussed on testing and more on mobilization. but we're still confused as to whether or not testing is ever going to get to the point where it is across the board so we know exactly where we stand. what is the atlantic looking at? >> well, the atlantic is looking

at -- we've been looking at from the very beginning that these testing questions we were among the first to ask the question why is no one being tested? the interesting question, and i don't know if there's a definitive answer to this, there's dispute, obviously, inside the government about this, is testing is useful now, but the virus is here and so this mobilization that people talk about, the flattening the curve by social isolation, by quarantining, by shelter in place has become the more salient or more desperate topic. but on the other hand, if you listen to the scientists, and we should be listening to the scientists, they say testing is the only way to understand where pockets are -- where pockets of the disease are breaking out, are growing rapidly and that would allow governments to target specific regions, specific cities and isolate them. that's what we've come to. but, again, the testing is just part of a laggered, slow federal

government response. i shouldn't say government, because state and local governments have been doing much more than the federal government until this week. >> jeffrey, what i don't understand is why, first of all, i'll never understand why we said no to the world health organization tests. i don't understand why states still couldn't, why the federal government still couldn't reach out and get some of those tests for our worst affected areas. you look at what's happening on the west coast, what happened in seattle, san francisco, what's happening now in new york city. it's not like there was a buy by date on those world health organization tests. and it appears our government keeps fumbling around on these tests. i heard somebody last night suggest, oh, well we're past the stage of testing. no, we're not past the stage of testing. there are 250 -- 275 million americans who don't know whether they have coronavirus or not.

there are entire communities that need to be mapped out. we need to know where the virus is and where it is not. so i don't understand, and maybe do you have a better answer for cens us? why don't we get them, if we can't get them, if our government can't tro pro deuce a produce and help us do basic mapping on how to bend that curve? >> i can't answer that question about the trump administration and its responses to this. i mean, we've talked on this show for a month now about a slow response, a stutter-step response. you know, one thought i've had about this, and i think this tracks with previous behavior by this administration, there is a kind of kals trance to engage

with organizations with cross border cooperation. and the idea that we would have to rely on the world health organization, a u.n.-type understandin organization to do this is ethama to some people. but this was not taken extremely serious, as we know, by the president. now he said i guess just yesterday that he always knew it was a pandemic. he didn't know it was a pandemic, as my colleague points out in the atlantic. i mean, there's a long record going back a month, month and a half of him downplaying, mocking, diverting rather than actually grappling with this. so, you know, when the histories of this period are written, we're going to find out the decision points all along the way where people in the government said, you know what? we're not going to respond to what the world health organization is telling us. we're not going to respond to

this. we're not going to respond to that. but this is -- and we are at the atlantic we're trying to do this live history. but it's fast shifting. >> it is fast shifting. let's bring in right now nbc news kelly o'donnell. she was at the press conference yesterday in the white house. kelly, we're asking, of course, questions about these tests. they continue. the white house tried to answer some of the questions about the tests but bottom line, why didn't we get the world health organization tests? i understand that they said, oh, they don't reach our standards. well, they certainly reached the south korea's standards and helped them bend that curve. why can't we get some of those to supplement our lack of test something why can't individual states do the same thing? >> part of what we're all learning, joe, are some of the bureaucratic steps that are involved in this. we've asked in a couple of these briefings about the world health organization test, and the most fulsome answer we had so far came yesterday. the president stepped aside from

the lectern and let two of the experts on the frontline of this, admiral jarreau in charge of testing, and their answer to this is that the world hith organization provide and early stage test that had not met fda approval for quality and it was different methodology and they said flat out there wasn't a ready test offered to the united states that was turned down. now, we have to do more work on this to find out some of the distinctions there, and they are saying that there was never a time that they were given something that was ready for use in the field that they turned down. so we'll have to continue to ask those questions and point that out. and when you talk about it -- >> well, kelly, that's fascinating because obviously it was good enough for south korea. it was good enough for these other countries, singapore who tested. >> it was ready for them. >> well, as you know, the united states does not -- the united states on pharmaceuticals and on testing does not allow for what

other nations do just as a matter of course. i mean, you know that from your time in office, the whole issue of different pricing for over the counter drugs as well as prescription drugs. so, that's their answer. i don't -- i can only tell you what they told us. >> i understand that. >> yes. and i'm certainly not a scientist. >> i understand it's just bizarre that they would think that in the middle of a pandemic. and of course that's not for you to answer. i understand that completely. we'll discuss that around the table. let me ask the next question, then. when is every american going -- that needs to get tested, when are they going to be able to get tested? because we were promised that several weeks ago. it hasn't happened. what does the white house say, every american that wants to be tested can be tested? >> and we don't have a clear answer on that. and we've been asking that. >> why is that? what's their excuse for not being able to answer that basic question?

>> again, what they're telling us is that the different levels of approval that are releasing these tests have happened as recently as friday. so today's wednesday. and that the private laboratories that have now been given the go ahead are doing their testing. there's testing that they say exists that was before this new wave and about 2 million tests, they say, will be made available with the caveat, of course, that they're saying not every american who wishes a test for screening purposes could have one. it's about symptoms and a doctor saying that you need the test. one of the other lags is this notion of a website to help funnel people who can answer questions about what their symptoms are and can be directed to locations that will have drive through testing. we don't have that yet. testing, joe, is certainly one of the prime questions we're asking each day because it is of such high concern and it does help to shape where we understand the illness is in order to try to also get compliance from americans on

whether it is a stay at home policy, a limit your contact, don't go to restaurants, all the things we've been hearing. and one of the questions has been, can we trust the information we're getting? some of that is are they being truthful? some of it is the bureaucracy that in any crisis has its hiccups. and in some cases we're talking about new partnerships, new technology, new tests and tools at a time of shortages where you have the vice president asking construction firms to donate masks and you have different manufacturers saying we're ready to plus up on production if we get a specific order. so there's a lot of struggle for those of us who are trying to hold the administration to account as well as to give them a venue to talk about what message they have to the american people. and this is difficult stuff to weed through each day. >> no doubt about it, kelly. but you do an incredible job. thank you so much for being with us this morning. it's really been helpful. we appreciate it.

jeffrey, so you heard kelly's reporting from the white house. we've seen the press conferences every afternoon. the logic is absolutely extraordinary. well, the w.h.o. test doesn't reach our standards. that's like saying somebody in europe who builds a rocket ship that flies to mars doesn't meet our standards so we're going to build our own rocket ship which keeps blowing up on the launchpad. and we're still not going to ask for those tests. it's -- and we still aren't getting answers on when every american that wants to be tested can be tested. that's what this administration promised us several weeks ago. and, again, i'm not bringing this up to be a pain, i'm bringing this up because, you know, that's how we map in our community, that's how you map in your community, that's how every american community maps on where this virus is, where it is not, who has it, who doesn't have it. right now we're whistling in the

dark. we're shutting down the american economy. we're telling people to go home, which is all we can do because we're in the dark now because this administration won't get tests to doctors. >> right. well, we all know or we all suspect that there are more people around us who are infected than we know about. and we obviously we worry about ourselves and our families. but, you know, listening to you talk to kelly, i realized that there is something -- an even bigger issue underlying this, because this is one specific issue, the testing is a hugely important issue, but it's one in a basket of five or six or seven different national challenges at the moment. the underlying issue here is trust. we don't -- when the white house at this point says something, we don't necessarily believe it. and that is -- that's an undergirding problem. and, you know, if you spend

three years frittering away your credibility, you know, we've talked about this before, this is the first external crisis of serious note that the trump administration has faced. many of the crises before this were self-inflicted in a kind of way. you spend so much time frittering away credibility of the executive. then when you need to come out and say here are the challenges, here are the things we need to do, here are the things where we're not good yet but this is where we're getting better, but we in our profession and the typical american citizen look and say i don't know. i just don't know who to trust here. and that -- that's its own kind of infection and that's a terrible thing. >> well, you know, mika, it just doesn't make any sense to me. i've started to hear this argument seep into sort of the ether which is we're past of the test phase.

don't worry about the test phase, let's move on to the mitigation, let's move on to -- no. that's like me hiring a builder saying i need you to build me a house and the builder goes, okay, well great, i'll do that. i realize he doesn't know how to build the foundation. but then he's telling me he's going to start building the chimney. i don't want to see the chimney, i don't -- i don't want to see the entertainment room play out, i want you to build my foundation. that's where we are right now. we've got people in san francisco that are supposed to be locked down. they don't know where the virus is. new york city's trying to figure out whether to lockdown all of new york city, whether to close the bars, whether to close the restaurants. i would say in an abundance of caution, if you don't know who has the coronavirus because you don't have the testing, you're faced with this choice of locking things down because we don't have the testing. >> it's ridiculous. >> it is costing small businesses, mid-size businesses,

large businesses hundreds of billions of dollars because they're just having to guess. and they're having to make weissly the most extreme decision, which is we've got to keep everybody separated if the you have the tests, then you can make smarter, more focused decisions that don't wreck the lives of small business owners across america. >> it's very clear that the testing is a massive fail. anthony fauci said it every step of the way and we're still in a big fail. willie geist, my worry is as we still try to deal with the testing and get testing to different pockets of the punt th country that might need it to understand where they are, but my worry is the next big miss is going to be mobilization of hospitals that are separate from ers and other hospitals so these people can be treated without infecting other people. >> and that's the concern of doctors in any city you look at. i have a bunch of doctors in new york city reaching out to me

saying we're already feeling this and we're in the early stages. it's going to get bad. they're going to need more beds. they're mobilizing medical corps, people who can come out and help out. doctors are being redeployed from their specialties to work in emergency rooms. they're bracing for the worse in the cities across america. meanwhile, on the economic side, the white house announced yesterday it is pitching a $1 trillion package to combat the economic impact of the coronavirus outbreak. 250 billion of which would be use toward direct payments to americans. treasury secretary steve mnuchin announced the effort after speaking with senate republicans in the closed door gop lunch, secretary mnuchin warned if congress does not act to pass the stimulus package, the unemployment rate could skyrocket to as high as 20%. the white house said if congress acts quickly, checks could go out to americans directly by late april, though that rapid timing still could leave millions of workers scrambling

to make rent and other payments due at the beginning of the month. it's unclear exactly who would be eligible at this point for those payments. let's bring in nbc news senior business correspondent, nbc anchor stephanie ruhle. good to see you. >> good morning. >> you have steve mnuchin talking about the potential for 20% unemployment. we have this idea of direct payment, something the president said he would be open to, get the money to the people quickly. and then there's this larger idea of bail out entire industries as they suffer through this. >> that's what we heard from the president and steve mnuchin yesterday, saying whether you're a company or an individual, this wasn't your fault, we're here to backstop you. where we're going to see push! those corporate bailouts. remember when it happened in 2008? what it did do when banks or auto companies, bailed out, it didn't trickle down to workers. if you think about one of the biggest shareholders in the airline, it's berkshire hathaway, warren buffett. if there are going to be bailouts, we need to take a

closer look at should there be strings attached? the airline industry spent 96% of their free cash flow. that means the money they could have as a cushion on buybacks. that's when the company buys their share backs, that's great for the executives, the shareholders, it boosts things up. so unless you are going to have some sort of bailout where all employees can benefit or if it's for the hotel industry where just yesterday marriott furloughed tens of thousands of workers, if you are going to bail these industries out, will there be some strings attached where we know workers aren't going to lose their jobs or those who stay are going to get compensated in the same way that the executives will? >> we've heard some prominent rich people, to use the term, speak out against corporate b buybacks. mark cuban said if we're doing these bailouts, we have to put in a condition that says you cannot do stock buybacks. this has to go to the workers. it's not to get your cruise ship back and running to make the

executives rich, it's to protect the workers who work on the cruise ships. >> it can't be financial engineering. but cruise ships are the perfect example. they pay almost no corporate tax. royal caribbean, they're domiciled in liberia. norwegian -- i mean, liberia, panama, bermuda. these companies aren't even paying huge amount of corporate tax like most american companies are. it is the people down the line who are sufrfering the most. yesterday restaurant ceos were meeting with president trump. you didn't see any independent restaurants. steve mnuchin was saying maybe we'll have drive throughs, use the apps. do you know any mom and pop restaurants that have a drive through or an app? i'm pretty sure joe knows about fish house in the panhandle that can't do that. if we're going to talk about individual briss ausinesses i a people, you have to help them. just a corporate bailout, that's

not going to serve what it's intended to do. >> stephanie, as you know, it is those independent owners, it is those small businesses that, you know, maybe they have a month's reserve in cash to carry them over. they're the ones who are going to need help the most. >> maybe. >> and i had somebody call any yesterday from the industry say, you know the airline industry, this was early in the morning. you understand the airline industry that's going to get bailed out, they get tens of billions of dollars from the trump tax cuts and they, you know, spent the overwhelming majority of the money went right back into stock buybacks. it wasn't to help their workers if the wasn't to expand their businesses. it wasn't all the things we heard. so they've already got this massive multibillion dollars bailout which they all used to help themselves and buyback stock and here we are a year

later. i understand. i need the airlines to be operating too. but it's absolutely ridiculous that these people that got this multibillion dollars windfall before and didn't help workers at all are now in line to get another 50 billion or so. >> joe, we also have to take a close look at what businesses we need. we obviously don't want to see millions of americans lose their jobs, but the airline industry one could say this is an essential industry for us. but our other businesses in travel and leisure and cruises, do we need these businesses? if we don't need them, do they deserve a corporate bailout? or should the government be looking at all of those americans how we can support them? you're going to see millions of people in the retail industry possibly suffer, and that's a really bad thing. but we knew before this happened that the american law was dying. so should the government step in and help these big retailers where maybe the future is they shouldn't exist in the same form that they are right now?

>> well, and the cruise lines of course avoid u.s. taxes. as you were saying before, r. l let me ask you a question about testing. jeffrey goldberg was talking about we don't like getting foo pharmaceuticals and medical devices from overseas. i wanted to ask you about testing and can you explain why our government had an opportunity to get world health organization tests and passed on it? can you explain why? and i just had somebody in a government that is working in d.c. just text me and said, it takes six to seven days in washington, d.c. to get testing. in other parts of the world it takes one to two days. and this is an embarrassment even for people in the white house. what -- what business obstacles are there for us getting world

health organization tests or getting other tests from across the globe? >> it's about will. the fact that we've chosen not to do this is what makes no sense. just last night the former head of the cdc was on msnbc talking about because we haven't-enough widespread testing, that's why we are now at this place where we have city after city possibly state facing lockdowns. if we had had that testing, which we chose not to. when the world health organization said we're ready to send these tests to 50 countries and the united states says no thanks, we're going to look back in history from a crisis and risk management standpoint because that is what the top levels of federal government do, they risk manage. and we're going to say, why on earth did this happen? we could joke and say look at all of things the president has said over the last six weeks and find how his stories don't line up. but that's history. now we have to say, what are we actually doing? and if where we are is shutdowns across the board, joe, that is going to be economically

crippling and we need to figure out from the bottom up, not the top down how we're going to help the most amount of people. >> willie, i'm sorry, you know the reason we're shutting down, willie, is because we don't have the testing. >> that's right. >> we don't know who's sick. we don't know who's not sick. if the white house says let's move on from the testing or we're not getting clear answers on the testing, you have governors, senators, mayors who are making decisions to shut down their cities and cripple their economies because the administration still is not delivering testing. >> yeah. the tests are the bottom line and have been from the beginning. if you don't know how many people have this you don't know how to manage it. what you're seeing now is preventative, it's containment. shut down a city just in case everyone has it. you have to assume, as we heard last night, that you are carrying this infection. it's outrageous and it's a scanned that will scandal that we can look into over the course of the history. but i want to ask you about that $1,000 payments to every american that the president

appeared to support yesterday. get one of those out the door, cover your rent this month. what we know, steph, is that this could go on for months and months and months and months. so what do you do after that first $1,000 check which obviously is helpful to so many people? >> that's the same issue we hear over and over in the last week where people say why don't they shut the stock market down? why don't we create a national holiday? i get that. we did that after september 11th. that was a technical issue. we knew that tons of necessary equipment was damaged and they could say here's a finite amount of time we need to get things secure and we'll be okay. this, as much as the president wants to say this is going to be like a "v." we're going to face this health crisis and then we're going to pop right back up, that's not the case. we don't know how long it's going to last. there's one other thing to think about with the recession we're sliding into, people could change their behavior. let's say you and i every friday night love to go to the movies and our favorite restaurant. if we can't do that for three

months, by the end of that three months you may have become a great cook and i may now love netflix. it doesn't mean we're going to slide back into that old lifestyle. to say we're going to come back we may not necessarily. so those $1,000 checks could turn into a whole lot more quickly. >> great insights as always. thanks, steph. mika. coming up on "morning joe," we're breaking through partisan politics to get a full picture of the coronavirus outbreak. two governors, one democrat, one republican, join our conversation. michigan's gretchen whitmer and larry hogan. plus, two former cabinet secretaries, one under barack obama and the other under donald trump on homeland security. jeh johnson from the veteran affairs department, david shulkin. "morning joe" is back in a moment. shulkin. "morning joe" is back in a moment. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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♪ ♪ shulkin we have it totally under control. one person coming in from china

and we have it under control. it's going to be just fine. we're going to be pretty soon at only five people. and we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. so we've had very good luck. it's going to disappear. one day it's like a miracle. disappear. no, i'm not concerned at all. no, i'm not. we've done a good job. so it could be right in that period of time where it, i say, washes through. other people don't like that term. but it washes through. >> some people did note that your tone seemed more somber yesterday. you talked about that august timeline. did you see a projection? some people thought perhaps that 2 million potential that i could die maybe prompted part of that. was there a shift in tone? >> i didn't think -- i mean i have seen that where people actually liked it. but i didn't feel different. i've always known this is a -- this is a real -- this is a pandemic. i've felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic, all you had to do was look at

other countries. i think now it's in almost 120 countries all over the world. no, i've always viewed it as very serious. there was no difference yesterday from days before. i feel the tone is similar, but some people said it wasn't. >> so even if for some reason he did know about this, it begs the questions why didn't he order the federal government to do more sooner? especially on testing. as "the new york times" notes, the mayor of seattle wanted mass tents from the federal government to rapidly build shelters to how's people in quarantine. by the way, every scientist we've spoken to on this show and doctor says that is a really important, good idea. and it's not happening. the state of new york pleaded for help from the army corps of engineers to quickly build hospitals. oregon's governor repeatedly pressed the department of health and human services for hundreds of thousands of respirators, gowns and gloves, face shields,

goggles, anything. hospital ships remain at port. the department of veterans affairs legally designated as the backup health care system in national emergencies awaits requests for help. the national disaster medical system, a collection of emergency doctors and nurses, ready to be deployed by the department of health and human services is also still waiting for orders. per the times, even after trump committed to supporting states on tuesday, the arm corps of engineers says it still has not received direction from the administration. and even the defense department, home to over 1 million active duty troops and a civilian and military infrastructure that has made planning for national merges almost an art form has yet to be deployed to its fully capabilities. joe, the bottom line here is there are things that can be done to mitigate disaster. >> right. >> to mitigate hundreds of people infecting thousands of people in our health care

system. >> right. >> no triggers have been pulled. >> right. and, you know, it's great that they're having the press conferences every day. it's great that they're -- they're doing what they think they should do to update americans every day on our response, but we have such a long way to go. i agree with stephanie, okay, if we don't want to talk about what's been done in the past, let's talk about what's happening right now. >> he needs to do that and not rewrite history in these press conferences in the is not about him, for once and for all, for once and for all this president needs to face the facts. and i don't know who can get through to him, but this is not about him. >> well, so what this is about is we've got over 300 million americans that don't know whether they have coronavirus or not, do not know how the pandemic is going to impact them

or their communities, and we are, as one of -- an ambassador who's an ally to the united states told me, you all are flying blind. you don't know what's going on. and, jeffrey, i think that's still the grave concern. we still really haven't gotten a straight answer. and i will go back to the foundational question about the testing. our scientists don't know how to map this out, mathematicians don't know how to map this out, and you have, again, all of these agencies that are waiting to be deployed but yet you look at the department of homeland security, for instance, and it's been gutted over the past three and a half years because remarkably large number of positions have not been filled. >> right. well, you know, look, a couple of points here. the first is that if the president thought it was a pandemic before we were using the word pandemic, we would not be here right now talking this

way and looking at the problem that we have right now, period. end of story. i mean, if the president of the united states had take then seriously and understood what it meant to be a pandemic, three, two weeks ago, we wouldn't be here. you know, this is -- and here this is -- this is why history is important, because you'd like a president, you'd like a chief executive to study past disease spreads, ebola, h1n1, sars, right? you'd like the president to study the inadequate government response to natural disasters like katrina. and so talking about and holding him responsible for this is very important. but here this is the basic question that you would like a president of the united states to wake up every morning and ask, how many people are sick? how many people are being tested today? right? i mean, that's a question that could have been asked a month ago. even, even if he hadn't believed, as he now says, that it was a pandemic, it's the most

basic question of all. what are our tests showing us? where is the spread somewhat governors, what mayors destroy to work with today? where do i surge supplies to? how do i -- how do i use the full force of the u.s. government? and, yes, your point is actually right on -- right on point, you know, it's harder to move the vast apparatus of federal government when so many jobs are empty. but, again, that's just another aspect of a governance problem that we have right now. and so holding that accountable and not letting him get away with saying, oh, i always knew it was a pandemic, that's part of journalism and that's part of how we stop this from happening the next time. >> so, willie, here's where we are right now. it is a pandemic. the president knows it's a pandemic. all the president's men, all the president's women know it's a pandemic, so the questions that we need to ask this morning are what -- what's going to be done today? what's going to be done so you,

willie, can actually if your family or someone you know and love thinks they may have the coronavirus, how can you get that in less than six or seven days? if somebody that i know or somebody watching out there has a mother or father or a grandmother or a grandfather who may have the coronavirus, or worse yet, not worse yet, but just as dangerous, if somebody in their teens or 20s may have the coronavirus and we want to make sure they do not infect people where contact kills, how do we find that out? and then beyond that, how do we start actually using the power of the federal government to do all of those things that it's not doing? that's why -- listen, we're going to debate what the president knew and when he knew it this fall in the election. right now, i can't say this

strongly enough. we still have a chance to bend the curve. we still have a chance to avoid the fate of italy. so every day is a brand-new day and a brand-new opportunity to get this right. i mean, we made a lot of mistakes and, yes, americans are paying for those mistakes. but how do we avoid the grave tragedy? how do we avoid the italy model, willie? and that's what i think this white house, i mean, needs to do a better job just assuring americans that they get it and they're going to deploy the full power of the federal government. and if they need to get tests from the world health organization so scientists can map this and we can keep our families safe, then, damn it, do it today. >> maybe the biggest question that will be asked among the many questions as we have time to look back on this in a few months and over the course of history, how will this country, the united states of america as rich and developed and innovative as it is, not be able to rush out tests or have the

tests to be ready for this to begin with? and the answer will be somewhere within the federal government. the president of the united states now having to lean on the private sector, these public/private partnerships are good because they move things along. why weren't those established earlier? why didn't we have the tests so we can at least know where we? we don't even know where we are. most doctors will tell you the number of cases that we put up on the screen every day that we report to you is not remotely reflective of how many of cases there actually are in this country or your state or your city. it's exponentially larger. that's why you see hospitals across this country bracing for a surge in patients. a new study by harvard paints a potentially grim picture of beds overrun well past their capacity. even in a best case scenario with 20% of coronavirus cases spread out over 18 months, the study estimates hospital beds would be about 95% full in some areas. that number includesal rea alre

occupied beds if additional ones are not added. if the reeferry rate is shorter, they'll be inundated with figures as high as 200% over capacity limits. new york governor andrew cuomo has called on president trump to enlist the army corps of engineers to step in, sbou fbutr a spokesperson says they have not been assigned a mission. the pentagon said it will give 5 million ventilators and 200 respirators for response. vice president mike pence has called on construction workers now to donate masks to hospitals as reports surface that staff are being forced to reuse dwindling supplies. let's bring in the director of the climate and health program at columbia's university mailman school of public health, professor jeffrey sheaman. he forecasts the growth and spread of infectious disease

cases. he was recently quoted in "the new york times" saying, if we have 3,500 confirmed cases of coronavirus in the u.s., you might be looking at 35,000 in reality. professor, good morning. good to have you with us. so talk about that number that you laid out in the "new york times" piece. i think that opened a lot of people's eyes in terms of how much exponentially greater this infection rate really is. where do you see it right now and where do you see the gap between what's reported and what's real? >> i think it's around the factor of ten. i think for every confirmed case we have you can say that we probably have about ten times as many unconfirmed cases in the united states. we did our study that we did recently was for china where we built a mathematical model and combined it with data and movement data, infection data. and we were able to then estimate that only one in seven people in china was actually being documented. and the rest of them are most likely people who get the

disease but they only experience mild symptoms. it's what you and i normally have during the winter when we get a cold, take some cold medicine, some ibuprofen but you go about our day. you go to work, shopping, the movies, restaurants, and in doing that, you're actually spreading these viruses, these common respiratory viruses around the community. unfortunately, this pandemic virus has the right combination of stealth transmission where there are a lot of undocumented mild infections who are still contagious and can spread the virus. and that's why it moves so quickly from place to place. and at the same time, it has this age group of people, it's got a fat tail where there are certain people who are have critical complications associated with the infection and there's a high mortality rate. it's got a lethal complication that makes. most difficult and dangerous virus that we've dealt with since 1918. >> professor, you study these

things for a living and this kind of health and environmental question. can you help answer why the tests have taken so long to get out? i know there's logistics and bureaucracy there that aren't what you study. but just as someone who knows how this usually might work, why don't we have the tests we need at this point? >> well, i think you guys are been talking about a lot of the points and i think you can speak better to it than i have because i haven't been following the governance and the policy put in place as closely as you have. but clearly some needs have been dropped. the cdc needed to get some of this out faster. i work with colleagues in the cdc all the time and i know they're doing their best. but the idea that we needed to have clear and consistent messaging about how grave and difficult this virus was a month ago, if not six or eight weeks ago is really would have been paramount. and we need to have more of these tests distributed. i would say that honestly the u.s. is not the only country in this circumstance. it's variable from country to country, but there are other countries that are also not

testing at the rate that we need to in order to document this infection, know where it is and have a better sense of just how many cases there are and how much this wave of growth is going to overwhelm our hospital systems. >> as you said, this virus thrives or people mingling and meeting each other. you said we need to keep people apart. i'll ask you a question we put to other experts over the last couple of days. do you believe there should, at this point, be a national quarantine? in other words, everybody just stays home until further notice? >> that might actually be very effective. but obviously that's going to have enormous economic, psychological, and emotional consequences. because we don't know the end game of this. you know, typically when you resort to social distancing, isolation, and quarantine, school closures, things of that nature, you're trying to buy time. you're often trying to buy time so you can develop a vaccine. as anthony fauci has said, this is going to take some time to develop a coronavirus vaccine. we're not as adept at it as we are for influenza. back in 2009 it was a little

over five months from the identification of the virus to the rollout of a clinically tested fda approved vaccine that was effective. for this coronavirus, we don't have that template. it's a very different virus and we don't know how successful we'll be in our endeavors. so we're looking at maybe a year, year and a half as some of the experts are quoting to you. so how long can we maintain this? how do we go about restricti contact? we need to flatten the curve and as everybody's been seeing, we don't see our hospitals overrun. the problem with hospitals overrun is not nearmerely that deteriorates patient care for those with the infection, it has these effects downstream because you're no longer able to give the patients services that you need for everybody else. routine services, childbirths, vaccines, chemotherapy,

emergency services for accidents, all of those get scrapped many some essence. they're not as available and the quality of care erodes for everyone. so it's incredibly important that we don't see our hospital systems overwhelmed the way they have been in italy and china earlier as well. >> that's already happening. some doctors in those specialties are being used to move into the emergency room. jeffrey, appreciate you being here this morning. thank you. mika. all right. so, i mean, just in terms of the botched testing, joe, that's happened. it's true. let's move forward, let's figure it out. there are questions moving forward, though, as how to get mass testing more quickly. but i hope i'm wrong. i'd love to be wrong. it's march 18th, today. this is almost four months into the crisis when it first began. no call for military hospitals. we're looking at italy, which is overrun and making horrific decisions in their hospitals. and then we've got this cluster. there's no understanding that if

you -- like you just heard this expert talking about, bringing people into ers and infecting the health care workers. there's no call for military hospitals almost four months into this. is this going to be the next crisis? let's bring in "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell who's been looking at all of this. >> dave, that's what we're concerned about. we're concerned about, of course, our last guest. we kept talking about the dangers of hospitals being overrun and the impact that would have. let me ask you, i've had some people suggest that perhaps we use abandoned college dorms where nobody's if, the colleges now, maybe some of those dorms for makeshift hospital beds. but i want to ask you about something. what about all these outpatient surgery centers, whether it's for elective surgery or other types of surgery that have the

medical devices, that have, perhaps, the ris pe perhaps the respirators off-site from hospitals. why can't we figure out a way to connect those dots and if the hospitals begin to be overrun, start using those outpatient surgery centers? >> joe, that is a great idea. and let me explain why. and the idea of dorms housing people, that's great, but not as a hospital or not as a triage station. there are 5,800 ambulatory surgery centers in the united states. and just two days ago president trump told governors that they should really do things themselves. they need to get out there and find the space, the personnel, and the equipment to manage this surge capacity that's needed. ambulatory surgery centers right now, right today are up and

functioning. it's already been recommends that to unload the hospitals that ambulatory surgery centers start doing elective urgent surgery, things that can't wait until the lull, the hoped-for lull in this pandemic this summer. there are a lot of things that need to be done now that can't wait. space, personnel, and equipment. the surgery centers can provide the space, they have the beds, they have the personnel. you have to keep health care workers healthy for every health care worker that gets sick with coronavirus, they're going to go -- some of them will go in the hospital and take up space and they'll be pulled out of the pool of people available to provide care. so we have to keep space availability up by unloading hospitals to surgery centers. we have to protect people and think about the equipment. every ambulatory surgery center has about fivant anesthesia

machines which are respirators or ventilators. 5 times 5,800 is the overflow. >> that makes a lot of sense. >> do we have enough ventilators? do we know about in terms of supplies, dr. dave, that there's enough supplies to go around this country if the numbers keep going as they appear to be going? >> mika, no. it has already been stated that because we are a few weeks behind, the world capacity supply of ventilators. has been taken up by other countries. you can't go out today and buy a ventilator easily. other countries have already bought them. so we're second in line here. so not that surgery centers, ambulatory surgery centers is the only answer, but it clearly is an answer early on. later on ambulatory surgery centers can serve as triage stations. they can be coopted or commtake

over. it's part of the emergency response programs that have been on the books for years. >> you know, it's not that wide of a proposals because they already have what's needed to perform operations there. they have ventilators and many cases mris, they have the things that are needed. it's up to the federal government and the state government, it's up to the local gafr government to start connecting the dots and see where those outpatient centers are. and you add to your capacity, it's a great idea. thank you so much for being with us. and still ahead on "morning joe." >> mr. president. >> yes, please. >> the last administration said that they had tested a million people at that point. you've been -- >> well ask them how they did with the swine flu. it was a disaster. >> but you've been in -- >> they had a very big failure

with swine flu. very big failure. >> president trump has been talking a lot about the swine flu and how barack obama handled it. but a new analysis in the "washington post" says that comparison isn't as useful as the president thinks and we'll talk about that coming up on "morning joe." talk about that coming up on "morning joe." unpredictable crohn's symptoms following you? for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease, stelara® works differently. studies showed relief and remission, with dosing every 8 weeks.

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we're getting rid of this virus, that's what we're doing. that's the best thing we can do. for the markets and everything, it's a simple solution. we want to get rid of it. we want to do have very -- as few deaths as possible. this is a horrible thing. you look at what's going on with italy, we don't want to be in a position like that. but a much larger because we're a much larger country, we don't want to be there. and i think we've done really well. think we've done well. i think the states have done well. we're all working together. the best thing question do is get rid of the virus. once that's gone, it's going to pop back like nobody's ever seen before. that's my opinion. but i think it will pop back

like nobody's ever seen before. >> president trump on what will bring the economy back. the white house announced yesterday it is pitching a $1 trillion economic package to combat the economic impact of the coronavirus outbreak. 250 billion of which would be used for direct payment to americans. treasury secretary steve mnuchin announced the effort after speaking with senate republicans. in that closed door gop senate lunch mnuchin warned if congress does not act to pass the stimulus package, the unemployment rate could skyrocket to as high as 20%. there are now confirmed cases of the coronavirus in all 50 states. the reported u.s. death toll from the virus has now passed 100 as the number of confirmed cases soored cases soared to 6,200. the number of new cases in new york city jumped from 100 just

yesterday to more than 900. now there's confusion over whether the country's most populated city is considering a shelter-in-place order. after mayor bill de blasio said it is being considered, governor andrew cuomo's office put out a statement saying, quote, any blanket quarantine or shelter in place policy would require state action as the governor has said. there is no consideration of that for any locality at this time. european leaders are also scrambling to contain the virus' spread and they have agreed to seal off their borders and ban noun essential frazztravel streg from portugal to finland for 30 days in an effort to combat the spread of the coronavirus. the european union, home to more than 400 million is now the epicenter of the pandemic as france imposed some of its harshest measures to impose a lockdown on the country,

deploying 100,000 police officers, setting up checkpoints, and requiring residents who go outside to show a form of declaring on their honor their reason for leaving their home. in italy, the death toll has surged to over 2,500. the worst-hit country in europe forcing the country to rush 10,000 student doctors into service. scrapping their final exams to help their nation's health system cope. spain, where cases surged to over 11,000 announced that it was nationalizing its private hospitals as res dlenidents the faced lockdown. and iran has temporarily released about 85,000 prisoners who had tested negative for the virus. so with joe, willie and me we have the editor and chief of the atlantic magazine jeffrey goldberg. also with us, msnbc political analyst and former chairman of

the national committee michael steele. and national correspondent for the "washington post," philip bump. good to have you on this hour. >> willie, we were talking of course last hour about all the crises that we're facing, the failure when it comes to testing. and really more importantly than that, not being able to get a straight angs aboswer about whe are in the test process right now. why we can't use world health organization tests. i don't want to hear about the standards and american standards because we failed colossally in our first effort. and vae using w.h.o. tests were able to chart out everything. you look at the systemic failures from top to bottom and i hope our government is moving quickly on this. there's a great article "the new yorker" that talks about our failures. they talk about, for instance, and the fact that part of our problem with our hospitals already running out of masks and gloves is the fact that 90% of those are made where?

china. >> yeah. >> hospital beds, under a moderate scenario, "the new yorker" reports that studies show that up to 40, 50% of hospitals will be overrun in a moderate scenario. you can talk about ventilators, of course we don't have the ventilators that are required. it's been one failure after another. and i think wouldn't all americans want to know, republicans, independents, democrats alike, is that our white house, our administration, our congress understands this is war and they need to put all of the government on war footing at once. and it seems like we're still only halfway into this fight. >> it does. and we're counting, as you mentioned the chinese masks, the generosity of the chinese billionaire jack mott to donate masks and test kits in part so we can protect ourselves. joe, i talked to doctors in new

york city who have been, by the way, waving the flag about this for weeks and weeks and weeks before certainly the white house was, but even before the media was, that this was coming down the pike and that people needed to take it seriously. those same doctors i'm talking to now talk about being on a war footing are being pulled out of their specialties. if they're a surgeon, they're being asked to come in and now work in the er because of the rush that they're expecting. it's all hands on deck. many of those nurses and doctors are being furloughed if they're believed to have been exposed to the coronavirus, so they're sidelined. new york city mayor de blasio talked about calling up the medical reserve corps. did you know there was such a thing as the medical reserve corps. 9,000 health care professionals go going to be asked to come out and work. i think a lot of people have put themselves on a war footing. the question is why hadn't we been there since january? on january 22nd when the president said it's going to be just fine, we have it totally under control, if he had this

information from experts, if the federal government knew this was, in fact, a form of war, why weren't we treating it this way from the very beginning? >> yeah. i understand. jeffrey, general, let's talk about now. let's talk about the list of things that the "new york times" talked about this morning that still aren't being implemented. it doesn't seem that we're using the federal government to its full capacity to do what we can to avert the worst case scenario. >> right. one of the interesting ideas that's been floated actually for a couple of weeks but has not been implemented is this idea that you set up military hospitals, tented hospitals next to civilian hospitals because the military, obviously, their doctors are very experienced in treating trauma. and so what you do is you take all the regular emergency room services that in ordinary times the civilian hospital would deal with, you move that to the military hospital, which could

be in the parking lot of the regular hospital, that frees up the emergency room to deal with coronavirus. there are a number of things that the government can do and probably should have done and has not done. the president has extraordinary powers, any president has extraordinary powers to order u.s. manufacturers to make certain products that are requirements for national security. this is obviously a manifestation of a national security problem. that hasn't been done. again, we go back to something you were just talking about, this starts at the top, it starts woman attitude, it starts with a belief that this is under control or maybe not a belief, but an argument, a pr argument that this is all under control, don't worry about it. it's one case, it's five cases. if that's the message that's coming from the very top, then you're not going to go to war footing. and if we had gone to war footing two, three, four weeks ago, we'd be in a different place right now. >> i mean, but there's still no declaration from the top.

there's no levers being pulled. no triggers to mobilize hospitals, to try to figure out how to get more supplies. there's absolutely no leadership. and if the president, joe, knew about this weeks ago, then he knowingly undercut our ability to respond. we have to move forward in a uniform way. it's true, his tone was completely different the other day. it has changed. but i think more is needed. >> well, more is needed and, again, like i've said, we can talk about what was said over the last four weeks. >> i get it. >> til hell freezes over. that's not going to save senior citizens across the country. we can talk about all the mistakes that were made, let's put together all the video clips. trust me, we're all going to see it this fall when there's an election campaign. i'm sure everybody's going to put it out there. and, of course, it's the record. it should be out there. the question is, what's being done today? we need answers on testing.

we need answers on how we're going to use excess capacity. how the federal government is going to help state governments coordinate with this idea dr. dave was talking about. how we use these outpatient clinics. there's a lot of things that have to be done right now. okay. guess what? we didn't see the japanese coming at pearl harbor, fine. guess what? the fleet, it's like it sunk. it's on fire and it's sinking in pearl harbor. i got it. so what do we do now? we're at war. and our federal government needs to engage. and i do think, jeffrey, this is going to be a big part of the conversation as we move forward. let's talk just a minute about politics and what happened last night, because we had yet another super tuesday last night and as the atlantic wrote last night, we're seeing the end of the democratic primary. this is all but over have it is not joe biden is going to be the

nominee? >> it was probably over anyway. this was a normal time, no pandemic, it still would probably be over. think there's an even greater notion or greater feeling on the part of democrats and all americans that, okay, let's just -- let's just get clarity on one thing because we don't have clarity on a whole bunch of stuff that's much more important. and so i think the pressure on bernie sanders to drop out will be even greater than it would in ordinary times. and if this was an ordinary time, the pressure would still be great because those numbers were quite something. i mean, i'm not going to discuss florida. you're the expert on florida politics. but that was crushing what happened to bernie sanders in florida. >> it was unbelievable. >> and we could talk about why, but -- but across the board there is a -- there's a semi plausible very, very narrow path for fwornds stay alive, but it's really only semi plausible. and nothing indicates that this

would curve back in his direction. so people, i think, in the party are going to be putting tremendous pressure on bernie sanders to say, let's call it. joe biden is the nominee, let's focus on coronavirus, let's focus on the american response, let's get the party unified and ready to deal with the president who, as you note, is very, very susceptible to the argument that he did not get the country ready for a war. and that's where i think had the emphasis is going to be today. >> so, michael steele, you obviously ran a political party. are we not at the stage now where you have one candidate that won every county in florida, won every county in mississippi, won every county missouri, won every county in michigan, has been rolling up huge numbers of votes every week, huge numbers of delegates every week. is it not time in this, as we keep saying, time of war, a time

of pandemic, is this not time for bernie sanders to do his work in the united states senate, shape these bills that are going to determine how americans live or die over the next several months and pay attention there instead of on a lost cause chasing joe biden and keeping this race going when, really, joe biden and the democratic party should line up behind the nominee? and he is going to be the nominee. and stop this at once and move forward. >> joe, i think with any other democratic candidate, what you've just described would be their thinking. and they would rationalize their campaign in the terms that you've just laid out, particularly in the face of this pandemic. but this is not, i don't believe, the thinking of bernie sanders. i think to jeffrey's point and

others that he's looking at this and sees that now sliver of an opportunity. he knows that as more states defer their primaries to later in the spring, perhaps, that he still has a path to fight on. i don't necessarily think that that's the best or the smartest approach at this stage. i think the democrats at large, the chairmanship on doun down a and up the chain would say let's get this thing to joe biden, let's start the general campaign now, and then we can have this discussion more precisely to your point, joe, over how the nation is handling coronavirus. >> but what's the pathway forward? he has been routed three weeks in a row. >> i know. >> all across the country. there is no -- i would not say this if there were any path forward for bernie sanders. there's simply not. >> well, i agree, the numbers --

the numbers aren't there. but remember what happened in 2016. it was all but over. but what did bernie sanders do? he took his time getting out of the race. he could have -- he could have exited that race much earlier against hillary clinton, but he didn't. he waited until the last possible moment to do so. i suspect that will be the narrative again this time. there is no other reason that i see him changing that approach. i don't agree with it, i don't think it's best for the party in terms of what the party could take advantage of politically right now. but i don't have any indication from bernie sanders that he's looking to step out of this race at this point. now, he may surprise all of us and next week make that announcement. but show me where you see the evidence of his making a decision that the race is over for him. >> all right. the president tweeting just about a minute ago that he's having a news conference today to discuss very important news

from the fda and he says concerning the chinese virus. the senate still needs to pass the coronavirus relief bill already advanced by the house which would include provisions for free coronavirus testing, secure paid emergency leave, enhance strength and food security initiatives and increase federal medicaid funding to states. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell said the sbirl gent. >> a number of my members think there were considerable shortcomings in the house bill. my thing is gag and vote for it anyway even if it has shortcomings. >> but rand paul did not get that passage. he delayed the bill's passage by pushing a vote on what is known to be a doomed amendment. his proposed amendment would require a social security number for purposes of the child tax credit and to provide the president the authority to

transfer funds as necessary and to terminate united states military operations and reconstruction activities in afghanistan. senator paul was also the only no vote on the $8.3 billion coronavirus spending bill that the senate passed earlier this month. >> what is going on? >> so, willie, rand paul is holding up a bill to bring relief to americans in the midst of economic collapse, at least on wall street, which will obviously follow to main street. i think mnuchin disagreed with most of what he's been saying ever aught past month or so, but is he right. unemployment could face 20% and rand paul is putting in a poison pill amendment to actually get in the way of helping americans with -- with demand that we cease operations in afghanistan? i mean, have that debate another day. but don't purposely try to kill

a bill to try too help the truly disadvantaged. >> it's an evergreen statement, joe, rand paul is holding up a bill. that's what he does. he did it with the health care for 9/11 workers. he always seems to make a point near the end of the process here. but this is something that even leader mcconnell, i know he's been criticized for going away over the weekend, but when the senate took up the bill yesterday, he said let's gag and go, let's get in voted on and money out to the people to stimulate the economy. his colleague in the state of the economy rand paul is holding up this bill on matters that have nothing to do with what's happening in front of the country right now. let's turn to philip bump, he's a national correspondent for the "washington post." he's joining us from home on skype. phil, you're looking at this comparison between h1n1, which the president keeps going back to to blame and point backwards at president obama and what's happening right now with coronavirus. the president was asked by our kristen welker, i think it was just on friday at a news briefing about that and he said,

yeah, they messed up h1n1, go look at the numbers. you did look at the numbers had the how did the early stages of h1n1 under president obama in 2009 early in his first term compare to the early stages here of coronavirus? >> the important thing to remember when you hear the president talk about h1n1 is that what he's doing is he's comparing an after the fact estimate of the total scope of the effects of the virus to what we're seeing now with coronavirus. and what everyone should understand by no,w is the numbes we are seeing, the 6,000 plus cases of coronavirus aren't actually all of the cases of coronavirus that exist in the country. they're merely the ones that have been record and measured, the tests that have come back positive. at the same time, 2009 when this thin thing emerged in california of 2009, the governor was dotting same thing, trying to count how many cases they were experiencing. when you compare where we were in the count then to where we are in the count now, it's

remarkable how closely the two lines move together. there was an exponential growth that looked about the same for both of these illnesses, as you can see there. the big difference, though, the number of deaths from coronavirus, the number of recorded deaths attributed to coronavirus is far, far, far higher as it is right now than it was then for h1n1. >> you put it in these terms in the piece, the president is noting his score after one hole significantly lower than what arnold palmer shot after the 1960s masters. it's early in this pro verse not fe fair comparison there. more broadly, philip, as you cover this story, the president sort of his progress over the last two months where a couple days ago it looked like it dawned on him anyway just how serious this was after weeks and weeks and months and months of denying how serious it was, where are they inside the white house in terms of accepting the gravity of this situation? i know there are members of congress who are leaning on

president trump and saying, hey, this is blown out of proportion, the media's overreacting, they're out to get you. when was the turn for the president in terms of your reporting? >> it really seems to have been over the course of the past few days. we saw this dramatic shift, even from sunday to monday in the way that donald trump spoke about the coronavirus. we saw it on friday, for example, he announces this national emergency. it immediately shifted how the conservative media was respond together virus. and think it's important to note, you know, as joe said earlier, there's been a lot of looking backward and what donald trump said. that he is spending any time at all right now encouraging people to stay home to try to limit the spread of the virus, that is critically important. even as he goes on these asides and attacks governors, it's important that the president and government is moving forward with this consistent message of stay home, let's contain this thing, spend the next two weeks restricting your movements and so on and so forth. that shift is very recent. we saw the treasury secretary outline grim numbers and donald

trump himself this could last till july or august which may be a conseshtive estimate. but that change may have also stemmed from this report that came out that looked at what the possible scope of this virus could be in very, very bleak terms. that and probably some lobbying internally seems to have shifted the position of the white house. >> all right. "the washington post" philip bump on skype. we appreciate it. still ahead this morning, the coronavirus say different kind of enemy for homeland security and our nation's veterans. jeh johnson and david shulkin join us with their views on fighting this pandemic. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker, the best of pressure cooking and air frying now in one pot, and with tendercrisp technology, you can cook foods that are crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside. the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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as concerns of potentially overloaded hospitals continue to

rise, many have called in the veterans affairs health system to step in with resources. among the va's missions including care, treatment, and testing for the veterans, the fourth mission is to absorb nonveteran civilian or military patients in the event that hospitals overflow in an emergency. but "the washington post" notes that that objective, which was described on the va's website vanished last friday. >> why did it vanish? by the way there is not making sense. >> it's not. you don't want to be overflowing into the va which is strapped in itself. >> i saw -- i forget who it was, i think it might have been sean hannity asking somebody about ventilators, are we going to have enough ventilators. >> no one answers. >> the answer was well the best way to not need ventilators is to not get the kriers. we virus. it's a stupid answer.

it's the same answer the surgeon general gave savannah guthrie earlier this morning. these are not answers for senior citizens from florida to arizona, from new york to washington state whose very lives are on the line. these are not adequate answers. and for the surgeon general, mika, among in to this crisis, two months into this crisis not answering a question about ventilators and instead saying, well, you know what? just don't get this pandemic. like it's that easy to will yourself not to get the pandemic shows that there air lot of people in the federal government that remain clueless, that don't have the answers we need. >> all indications are we don't have enough is the answer. in reference to the va's congressionally backed fourth mission were removed as we were discussing and replaced with information that does not reference the original statement. a spokesperson for the va claims the mission is still intact, but

that hospitals are not yet stretched to need the va's help. meanwhile, the va states it has administered over 322 covid-19 tests since the outbreak began. just by way of comparison, the nba has tested at least 62 players for the disease within just a few weeks. joining us now, former secretary of veterans affairs under president trump, dr. david shulkin and former secretary of homeland security under president obama, jeh johnson. >> so, doctor, how can we best use, if you were in a position to use all of the resources that you had at your fingertips at the va, what would you be doing right now to help avert this coming crash that so many experts are predicting will come to our hospitals? >> joe, the va is the largest health care system in the country. it employs more doctors and

nurses than any other system and there needs to be a close coordination of federal resources with our local governments and our private sector hospitals. and we need to be thinking about our resources in a shared way. we're going to be asked to respond to a health emergency unlike anything that any of us have ever seen. and there needs to be a very integrated system of care. i think the biggest challenge we're going to have is staffing shortages. the va itself already has 49,000 vak kanssys vacancies. but we know from past pandemics about 35% to 40% of staff themselves won't be able to work because they themselves may be sick or taking care of people that they're responsible for at home. so we need to coordinate our staff, our equipment, our physical space to begin to start addressing this. every day that we don't have that coordinating planning is a missed opportunity. >> secretary johnson, you ran

homeland security under president obama, not going to ask you to play armchair quarterback, but just as a constructive question, what would you be doing right now if you were back in that chair? what would you be asking for? >> well, willie, this is -- this generation's 9/11, without a doubt. i don't know everything that goes in the situation room know or headquarters at dhs know right now. i'd be concerned about asking the following things. one, we're seeing new cases every day here in the united states. is that because of the actual spread of the virus or is it because testing is becoming more prevalent or a combination both? i agree with what was said earlier by joe and others, we cannot talk ourselves into believing that testing is not important. you need testing to know who has the virus but you also need testing to sow you can track the virus in various different communities and know where we need to surge resources. the goals have to be flattening the curve, as we say.

and in addition to that, encouraging the public to engage in social isolation, best practices, best practices in terms of hygiene. when you're in the chair, first reactions when you're dealing way lethal virus, the spread of a lethal virus are not always the best reactions. we can have an overreaction. for example, i have some real concerns about the implementation and enforceability of a shelter in place order by the government in a city as large as this one, new york, as large and as complex a population as this one. >> which the mayor, by the way, in the city yesterday said get ready, this is coming within 48 hours, perhaps. >> correct. and in a population like new york, as diverse and has dynamic as it is, by the time you think through all the exceptions you would need to impose to a shelter in place order to keep this city running, the exceptions would absorb the rule and you'd quickly become

consumed by the complexity of it all. first reaction is not the best. in a situation like the one we have now, this is a national crisis. you need both political leadership as well as social engagement, social commitment, and public sacrifice. the public itself through its own good behavior can make the huge difference here in slowing the spread of the virus and keeping us all safe. >> do you think there comes a moment because some public health experts have said this where we look at those scenes of crowds on the beaches and people in bars and everything else and you say, well, we can't trust everyone to abide by these guidelines we've put out, so at some point do what san francisco did, shut the city down or perhaps what new york city's going to do. do you think there comes a moment where there's the national quarantine becomes necessary? >> i think at the national level in washington we have to fight the urge to try to come up with some one size fits all solution. i think this has to be state by

state, community by community depending upon the nature of the demographics, the population, the workforce. but at the federal level, question do certain things to encourage certain behavior. i think dr. shulkin is correct, we ought to be looking at the va. we ought to be looking at each state's national guard. i would not federalize it, i'd leave them under state control but put them in title 32 status where the federal government pays for national guard support. but this has to be a community-by community, state-by-state solution engaging in social isolation and best practices without a doubt. >> jeffrey goldberg in washington, jump in here. >> doctor shulkin, just to stay on -- to stay on a theme that secretary johnson was talking about, if you had five minutes with donald trump right now, and i realize that that's a fraught idea, but if you had five minutes with him right now, would you advocate for a shelter

in place order either for a partial order across america or an all 50-state order? how do you feel about shelter in place? >> yeah, my concern is, is that seeing a doubling of cases now every four days we are unfortunately beginning to follow the epidemiologic curve of italy rather than south korea. so i think that we do need to consider getting more aggressive. i think a shelter in place needs to be very geographically determined, but we cannot afford to sit idly by and watch ourselves turn into italy. we have far fewer hospital beds than italy. our hospital leaders right now in the private sector are doing an incredible job of preparing, but we are going to see staff shortages, equipment shortages. and if we want to save people's lives, we are going to have to get more aggressive. i don't want to see us be a few days behind all these. i think we have to be looking

forward. we see what's happened in the european countries and we can't afford to stay on this same curve that we've seen over there. >> michael steele. >> secretary johnson, following on that point, how are you assessing not just the surge that we're clearly sort of girding for right now, but also what can be done in the private sector in the effort to get tests? companies may have the ability to go out and purchase these tests that they can then bring into the community. is there any thinking about that as we sit here and wait for the government get its act together in terms of getting these test kits, are there other ways in which people can access these tests globally? >> well, without a doubt the pharmaceutical industry, the medical industry, the medical profession can and i'm sure is mobilizing to get test kits out

in the communities more prevalent. we need to streamline any federal regulations, any resistance to getting this out there, to getting this done. if i were in the chair right now, i'd be saying to our team at the department of homeland security, 230,000 people, okay, guys, you don't need more time, you need a deadline. when can we get this done and what are the resources you need to get this done so we can release this in the private sector? and here's your deadline, i'm announcing it publicly in ten minutes. and that's how you get bureaucracies to act, you give them a deadline and you make it public. and so i hope that at the national level that the stage, they got a slow start, is fully mobilized. and looking at this in the correct way, the stephen miller mindset, which is if you have a problem in our borders, you regulate our borders no longer works because the virus is here and the virus is growing.

>> secretary shulkin, we've talked about using va facilities to get civilian patients in there. let's not forget about the veterans themselves. mika just reported there's been 322 tests of va patients. 322. the va serves 9 million veterans, about half of which, as you know, are over the age of 65 and the most vulnerable populations. how do we make sure our veterans are being looked after? >> well, i couldn't agree more. my top priority and concern was the safety of our veterans. we have 20 million veterans while 9 million get their care through the va health care system, we have a lot more out there. >> right. >> we actually have 350,000 world war ii veterans thankfully still with us. so this is a very vulnerable population. we clearly need to be more tested, do more testing. we need to make sure that our veterans have access to the right health care. and that may mean getting more access to telehealth facilities

rather than bringing them into our va hospitals. and the va has a big infrastructure for telehealth. so continuing to focus and make sure that our veterans are getting tested, make sure that they are getting the care that they need, making sure when they need that care that these facilities are properly staffed and that there is coordination between the private sector and the federal government is going to be extremely important to ensure the safety of our veterans. >> former secretaries david shulkin and jeh johnson, thank you both for being on the show this morning. >> thanks, guys. and coming up, not that long ago republican governor larry hogan took a hard look at running for president against donald trump. he ultimately passed on it, but still has plenty of thoughts about the current administration. governor hogan joins us to talk politics and pandemics ahead on "morning joe." tics and pandemi "morning joe." - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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when i was young, a long time ago, i felt that i was invulnerable, the way i think

many of us feel we're invulnerable. and when we're asking the young people to help us with this mitigation strategy by staying out of the bars, staying out of restaurants, really trying to distance yourself, don't get the attitude, well, i'm young, i'm invulnerable. in some respects you're less vulnerable than i am. however, what you might inadvertently do, and i know you don't want to do that, you don't want to put your loved ones at risk, particularly the ones who are elderly and the ones who have compromised conditions. we can't do this without the young people cooperating. please cooperate with us. >> dr. anthony fauci with that plea to young people to cooperate with the new restrictions put in place to curb the spread of the coronavirus. it's advice that the son of comedy legend mel brooks is taking to heart. >> hi, i'm max brooks.

i'm 47 years old. this is my dad, mel brooks. hi, dad. he's 93. if i get the coronavirus, i'll probably be okay. but if i give it to him, he could give it to carl ryaner who could give it to dick van dike and before i know, it i've wiped out a whole generation of comedic legends. when it comes to coronavirus, i have to think about who i can infect. and so should you. so practice social distancing. avoid crowds, wash your hands, keep six feet away from people. and if you've got the option to stay home, just stay home. do your part, don't be a spreader. right, dad? >> go home. >> i'm going. >> go. >> love you. >> that's nice. that's actually good. a lot of people are asking how long is this going to last? it's hard. i get it. >> we don't know. >> the sobering answer is this could last more than a year.

according to "the new york times," a federal government plan to combat the coronavirus warned policymakers last week that a pandemic will last 18 months or longer and could include multiple waves resulting in widespread shortages that would strain consumers and the nation's health care system. the plan warns shortages of products may occur impacting health care, emergency services, and other elements of critical infrastructure. this includes potentially critical shortages of diagnostics, medical supplies including personal protective equipment, and pharmaceuticals and staffing in some locations. new york governor andrew cuomo at a press conference warned that the number of coronavirus cases in the state might not peak for more than a month. >> the expected peak is around 45 days.

that can be plus or minus depending on what we do. the -- they are expecting as many as 55,000 to 110,000 hospital beds will be needed at that point. >> "politico" reports that new york city has asked the state to use manhattan's javits convention center as a medical research facility. joining us now, governor gretchen whitmer. thank you very much for being back on the show. a big night in politics last night, we'll try to get to it. first of recall what does michigan need right now from the federal government that it's not get zblg getting? >> we need assistance with personal protection equipment, a clear and swift direction from the federal government that has a national strategy. and we need resources. so i'm glad to see the supplemental moving, but every one of us is strapped to even

process the few kits that we have. so we need help from the feds on all of these fronts. >> let's talk about testing. obviously we've heard that for some time south korea has been testing at least 10,000 people a day. what about michigan? how many people are being tested today in michigan right now? >> so we early on, you know, i declared a state of emergency as soon as coronavirus was present. but before that even happened, i opened up our state emergency operations center because we knee it was a matter of time, not a question of if, despite what some rhetoric was, we knew we'd have to get prepared. we've set up i state lab. we've been able to process over 100 tests a day, but that's a pittance compared to what the need is and how many people need to be tested what the we need is additional resources the we've got some private labs that are getting setup and that's helpful. but from the fwral governmeeder we need the kits and chemicals to process those tests.

>> it's willie geist. have you explored other avenues to expedite getting these testing kits into your state rather than waiting for the federal government which has been obviously very slow and we've talked about that quite a bit today. what other ways are there for a state like yours to get testing kits? can you go to private companies in can you look overseas? have you explored other options? >> we are. we're in the process of doing a lot of outreach. you know, i read an article that the u.s. didn't work with the world health organization when they were some availability there and other countries have done it. i'm not sure why, but i'm exploring can michigan pursue that? we're working with our, you know, private industry in michigan to start to manufacture medical gowns and equipment because we're not getting them from the feds and we think that we can meet some of that need. but we are -- have to explore all of these avenues because we haven't been able to get the help out of the feds that we need. so i think the frustration that governors on both sides of the

aisle across our country have had is the slow ramp up at the national level has really undermined our ability to meet that need at the states. we're forging ahead, we're being aggressive, we're doing it whic. ultimately, it would be most helpful if we had the kind of national strategy that i think this crisis needs. >> you said a minute ago that you are looking at going directly to the w.h.o. as a state individually. is that something that's possible? what's the response to that? >> i don't know if it's possible, that's the point. we're pulling out all of the stops to make sure that if there is an avenue for us to ramp up as a state, we are going to pursue it. the people of michigan need to see results here. they need to know that they are protected. we also need to make sure that all of us are telling the public how important this community mitigation strategy is. as governor cuomo and governors

across the country are being aggressive, it's important the people of our country take this seriously. live up to each of our responsibilities to be a part of mitigating the community spread. we want to shorten the amount of time this impact our economy. if we want to make sure we mitigate how many people lose their lives, we have to observe the cdc recommendations and abide by the orders that we are issuing across the country. >> thank you very much. we want to play for you now what we just heard from the u.s. surgeon general on "today" moments ago. take a look. >> are you confident we have enoughs rep s rrespirators and ventilators? >> great question. when you look at modelling, again, you have a curve that looks like italy and like south korea. the best way to not run out of

vest la ventilators is to drive down demand. we are leaning into the next 15 days. we have a national strategic stockpile. we are working with public and private partnerships. that's on the supply side. if our curve goes the way of italy, and there's ever chance we could run out of devices. that's why it's important to lean into the mitigation efforts now, drive down demand, flatten the curve. >> some suggested invoking the defense production act to ramp up production of ventilators and respirators in this equipment to make sure. maybe we will never get there. wouldn't we rather be prepared now? >> everything is on the table. the president and vice-president have been in contact with industry trying to ramp up that production. right now, as surgeon general, my job is to talk to the american people and what the american people can do is really drive down that demand by staying at home, washing your hands, social distancing.

>> joe, i think to translate, i mean, everyone is trying to get information clearly, he is trying to do his job as well. it seems as if where we stand right now, tell me if you hear differently, there's not enough supplies, there's no national mobilization for military hospitals or separate places to isolate people who are dieing from the coronavirus. we're on par with italy. we're not prepared. what the government is trying to do is get the american people to step up and try and stop it. i'm feeling a shelter in place coming to major cities. >> there are a lot of things that are happening right now. the first is that we really don't know exactly what the federal government is doing. i'm grateful the white house is holding press conferences every day. but there are a lot of questions that are still throughout that need to be answered. we need to know if they are

going to begin mobilizing the federal government to its full impact. again, the problem here is you really don't knowco-ord co-order nay -- coordinating things. jared kushner has been put in charge. there's reports the president is not sure whether he wants to keep moving in that direction or not. i'm hoping he is reading these articles and seeing all these areas where the federal government is not using its full power. one other thing, willie, i understand the idea of driving down demand. that is good and it's sensible. it's just the best way that we help the environment is we conserve. that's the one thing we all can do. one thing we can all do here is to socially distance and be wise. our problem is that we are

muddying through this in darkness. don't know exactly who to stay away from, what exactly how to advise our parents, grandparents and others, because we don't have the testing. we need universal testing. we are starting to hear from experts again, let's just look past that. we don't need universal testing. in south korea, if you want a test, you get a test. that's one of the reasons why south korea remains the best example of how this crisis should have been handled. if the surgeon general wants us to drive down supply, we need to be able to map where this pandemic is and where it is not. we can make better choices me c medically and economically based on that. >> test, test, test, that has to

be. we need to drive down demand. i understand the point he is making. this isn't a product we can stop buying. ideally, driving down demand means people stop getting sick, therefore you don't need respirators. people are sick and more people are going to get sick. we need respirators. how do we get them? in italy, they have 3d printers cranking out respirators to meet the demand. every doctor, every hospital here in the united states, we are going to need more respirators. let's hope we drive down the demand, that we don't need these. anybody working in an american hospital would tell you we are going to need them. >> yeah. the disconnect for me in listening to that interview is this. the defense production act allows the president to order american companies to manufacture, in this case respirators, ventilators. the manufacturers say they have the capacity to go much faster.

why not do it? simply, why not do it? obviously, keep the message going. stay at home, wash your hands, social distancing, all the rest. why not do it? that's what i'm not following right now. >> we have much more on this ahead as americans are already feeling the financial pinch from coronavirus. >> follow up quickly with what jeffrey said. i think it was maybe -- maybe it was david brinkley had a book called "washington goes to war" about world war ii. paul kennedy the great historian has a book about the engineers who won the war. not the generals but the engineers who won world war ii. that's what we need right now. we need the president, we need this administration, we need congress to unleash those people

who can win this war and use all the power they have that they're not using right now. as jeffrey said, we have the capacity to do much more. that's what we need to do. >> we will be back in two minutes with much more on "morning joe." but now quickbooks helps me get paid, manage cash flow, and run payroll. and now i'm back on top... with koala kai. (vo) save over 40 hours a month with intuit quickbooks. the best of pressure cooking and air frying now in one pot, and with tendercrisp technology, you can cook foods that are crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside. the ninja foodi pressure cooker, the pressure cooker that crisps.

this is a moment for each of us to see and believe the best in every one of us. to look out for our neighbor. to understand the fear and stress that so many are feeling to care for the elderly. the elderly couple down the street. to thank the health care worker, the doctors, the nurses, the pharmacists, the grocery store cashier and people restocking shelves, to believe in one another. because i assure you, when we do that, when we see the best in each of us, we lift this nation up and we'll get through this together. that's how we have always done it.

>> joe biden addressing voters via live stream last night, another great night for his campaign. >> you know, he really -- we have said before, we said over the last couple super tuesdays, the democratic party shouldn't push bernie sanders out until he is ready to go. but i have to say, it's going to be flechlt next to impossible f sanders to catch up. the states ahead, they are joe biden states. we're in the middle of a national pandemic. bernie sanders is needed in the senate to frame a lot of bills that are going to respond to this crisis right now. there is no doubt, that's where he could do his most positive work. and the united states senate helping to shape these bills to represent the values and the beliefs that he has had his entire career. not on a campaign trail. this race is all but over. >> three states voted yesterday,

florida, illinois and arizona. biden walked away with decisive victories in all of them. in florida yesterday's biggest delegate prize, biden leads sanders by 35 points. in illinois, biden is up by 23 points. in arizona, biden wins 42.4% of the vote, leading sanders by a little over 12 points. >> interestingly, despite coronavirus fears and warnings, voters turn out in yesterday's primary, this is unbelievable, surpass the number of votes in the same primaries in 2016. >> biden has passed the halfway mark to the 1,991 delegates needed to secure the democratic nomination. according to nbc news delegate count, the former vice-president leads by 315 delegates, 1,132 to 817. as former campaign manager to

president obama's campaign, david pluff put it, biden is for all intents and purposes the democratic nominee. but we are in stark times when a key primary night is almost an after thought as there are now confirmed cases of the coronavirus in all 50 states. the reported u.s. death toll from the virus has passed 100 as the number of confirmed cases soared to more than 6,200 with new reports coming in by the hour. the number of known cases in new york city alone jumped to 100 just yesterday to more than 900 cases. >> my gosh. >> there is confusion over whether the country's most populated city is considering a shelter in place order. mayor bill de blasio said it is being considered. governor andrew cuomo's office put out a statement saying any blanket quarantine or shelter in place policy would require state

action. as the governor has said, there is no consideration of that for any locality at this time. here is how the mayor responded to that last night. >> this is moving very fast. we should all be very concerned about lou we find a way to slow down the trajectory of this virus. the idea of shelter in place has to be considered now. it has to be done between the city and state working together, respecting the state's role. what i was trying to say to new yorkers is this is the reality. get ready for the possibility because it's not so distant an idea at this point. even a week ago i would have said that's impossible. not anymore. >> south carolina is limiting gatherings of 50 people or more and has directed restaurants to st stop dine-in services. florida has canceled colleges,

shu shuttered bars and restaurants. the governor of kansas says schools will be closed for the rest of the school year. california says it will likely do the same. amazon says it will stop accepting some items in its warehouses and will focus only on necessities, meaning fewer electronics and more home goods. let's bring in the editor and chief at "the atlantic." you have been doing great reporting on the pandemic. jeffrey, good to have you on this morning. >> thank you. >> we're at a point where this is in all 50 states. one of the biggest stories is testing. you hear a bit of a shift among some experts or members of the administration, less focus on testing and now focus more on mobilization. we're still confused as to whether or not testing is ever going to get to the point where it's across the board so we know exactly where we stand.

what is "the atlantic" looking at? >> we have been looking at from the beginning the testing questions. we were among the first to sort of ask the question, why is no one being tested? the interesting question -- i don't know if there's a definite answer. testing is useful now. the virus is here. this mobilization that people talk about, the flattening the curve by social isolation, by quarantining, by shelter in place, has become the more salient or more desperate topic. on the other hand, if you listen to the scientists, and we should be, they say testing is the only way to understand where pockets are -- pockets of the disease are breaking out or growing rapidly. that would allow governments to target specific regions, cities, and isolate them. that's what we have come to.

again, the testing is part of a lagered, slow federal government response. i shouldn't say government, because state and local governments have been doing much more than the federal government until this week. >> jeffrey, what i don't understand is why -- first of all, i will never understand why we said no to the world health organization tests. i don't understand why states still couldn't -- the federal government still couldn't reach out and get some of those tests for our worse affected areas. look at what's happening on the west coast, in seattle, san francisco, what's happening now in new york city. it's not like there was a buy by date on the world health organization dates. it appears our government keeps fumbling around on these tests. i heard somebody last night subject we are past the stage of testing. no, we're not past the stage of testing. there are 250, 275 million

americans who don't know whether they have coronavirus -- the coronavirus or not. there are entire communities that need to be mapped out. we need to know where the virus is and where it is not. i don't understand. maybe you have a better answer for us. why haven't we gotten the world health organization kits? why don't we still get them if we can't get them if our government can't produce and help us do basic mapping of how to bend that curve? >> i can't answer that question about the trump administration and its responses to this. we have talked on this show for a month now about a slow response, a stutter step response. one thought i've had about this -- i think this tracks with previous behavior by this administration. there is a kind of recalcitrance to engage with international

organizations, with the idea of cross border cooperation. and the idea that we would have to rely on world health organization, a u.n. type organization, to do this is anathema to some people. until this week, this was not taken extremely seriously, as we know about the president. now he said i guess just yesterday that he always knew it was a pandemic. he didn't know it was a pandemic. as my colleague said, there's a long record going back a month, month and a half of him downplaying, mocking, diverting rather than actually grappling with this. you know, when histories of this period are written, we're going to find out the decision points all along the way where people in the government said, you know what, we're not going to respond

to what the world health organization is telling us, we're not going to respond to this or that. and we are trying to do live history. but it's fast shifting. >> we have seen the press conferences. the logic is extraordinary. the w.h.o. test doesn't reach our standards. that's like saying somebody in europe who builds a rocket ship to mars doesn't meet our standards. we will build our own that blows up on the launch pad and we're not going to ask for those tests. we still aren't getting answers on when every american that wants to be tested can be tested. that's what this administration promised several weeks ago. again, i'm not bringing this up to be a pain. i'm bringing this up because that's how we map in our community, that's how you map in your community, that's how every american community maps on where

this virus is, where it is not, who has it, who doesn't have it. right now we're whistling in the dark. we're shutting down the american economy. we're telling people to go home. which is all we can do because we're in the dark now because this administration won't get tests to doctors. >> right. we all know or we all suspect that there are more people around us who are infected than we know about. obviously, we worry about ourselves and our families. you know, i realize there's something -- a bigger issue underlying this. this is one specific issue, testing is a hugely important issue, but it's one in a basket of five or six or seven different national challenges at the moment. the underlying issue here is trust. we don't -- when the white house at this point says something, we don't necessarily believe it.

that's an undergirding problem. you know, if you spend three years frittering away your credibility -- we talked about this before. this is the first external crisis of serious note that the trump administration has faced. many of the crises before this were self-inflicted in a kind of way. you spend so much time frittering away credibility of the executive, then when you need to come out and say, look, here are the challenges, here are the things we need to do, here are the things we're not good but here is where we are getting better, you know, we in our profession and the typical american citizen look and say, i don't know, i just don't know who to trust here. that's its own kind of infection. that's a terrible thing. >> still ahead, the fight against coronavirus. on the state level. in washington. and on the economic front.

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meanwhile, on the economic side of this, the white house announced yesterday, it is pitching a $1 trillion economic package to combat the economic impact of the coronavirus outbreak. $250 billion of which would be used for direct payments to americans. treasury secretary mnuchin announced the effort after speaking with senate republicans. he warned if congress does not act to pass the stimulus package, the unemployment rate could sky drocket to 20%. if congress acts quickly, checks could go out to americans directly by late april. that rapid timing still could

leave millions of workers scrambling to make rent and other payments due at the beginning of the month. it's unclear exactly who would be eligible at this point for those payments. let's bring in msnbc anchor stefanie rule. you have steve mnuchin talking about 20% unemployment, we have the idea of direct payment, something the president would be open to, get money to the people quickly. there's this larger idea of bailing out entire industries as they suffer through this. >> that's what we heard from the president and steve mnuchin yesterday saying whether you are a company or individual, this isn't your fault. we will see pushback is those corporate bailouts. remember when it happened in 2008? when banks or auto companies were bailed out, it didn't trickle down to workers. if you think about one of the biggest shareholders of the airline industry, it's warren

buff buffet, berkshire hathaway. the airline industry spent 96% of their free cash flow, the money they could have as a cushion, on buybacks. buyback is whether the company buys their share back, that's great for the sha shareholders. if it's for the hotel industry, yesterday marriott furloughed tens of thousands of workers. if you bail these industries out, will there be strings attached where workers aren't going to lose jobs or those who stay will get compensated in the same way the executives will. >> you have heard prominent rich people speak out against corporate buybacks. mark cuban was saying, if we do bailouts and maybe it's the right thing, we have to put in a condition that says you cannot do stock buyback. this has to go to the workers. the point isn't to get your

cruise ships running to make the executives rich. it's to protect workers who work on the cruise ship. >> it can't just be financial engineering. crew ships are the perfect example. they pay almost no corporate tax. royal caribbean, they are in liberia. n panama. bermuda. these companies aren't paying huge amounts of corporate tax like most u.s. companies are. this cannot be another exercise in financial engineering. it's the people down the line who are suffering the most. yesterday, restaurant ceos were meeting with president trump. you didn't see any independent restaurants. mnuchin said maybe we will have drive-thru. do you know mom and pop restaurants that have a drive-thru or app? if we're going to talk about individual businesses and people, you have to help them. a corporate bailout, that's not

going to serve what it's intended to do. >> stefanie, it's those independent owners, those small businesses, that maybe they have a month's reserve in cash to carry them over. they're the ones who will need help. >> maybe. >> and somebody called me yesterday from the industry saying, you know, the airline industry, this was early in the morning, you understand the airline industry that's going to get bailed out, they get tens of billions of dollars from the trump tax cuts and they spent -- the overwhelming majority of the money went right back into stock buybacks. it wasn't to help their workers. it wasn't to expand their businesses. it wasn't all the things we heard. they have got this massive multi-billion dollar bailout, which they all used to help themselves and buyback strike.

he i understand. i need the airlines to be operating, too. but it's absolutely ridiculous that these people that got this multi-billion dollar windfall before and didn't help workers are in line to get another $50 billion or so. >> the airline industry, one could say, this is an essential industry. but are our businesses -- do we need these businesses? if we don't need them, do they deserve a corporate bailout in should the government be looking at all of those americans, how we can support them? you will see millions of people in the retail industry possibly suffer. that's a bad thing. we knew before this happened that the american mall was dieing. should the government step in and help these big retailers when maybe the future is they

shouldn't exist in the same form they are right now. >> thank you very much. we will see you at the top of the hour. coming up on "morning joe" maryland saw its biggest spike yet in cases, up 22 in one day. governor larry hogan is fighting back. he joins us next on "morning joe." [sfx: car passing by, kids laughing,] [sfx: bikes passing,] [sfx: fire truck siren, ambient sounds] onstar, we see them. okay. mother and child in vehicle. mother is unable to exit the vehicle. injuries are unknown. thank you, onstar. my son, is he okay? your son's fine. thank you.

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welcome back. joining us, the governor of maryland, larry hogan. governor, a lot to talk about about what's going on in maryland. let's start with the accessibility and availability of testing. i know there's local reports of johns hopkins doctors trying to develop their own tests. does maryland have enough tests? >> i don't think there's any state in america that has enough tests. we're all working as hard as we can to change that situation. it's really going to take both the federal government and all of the states to be acting along with the private sector. we were one of the first states to be approved to do our own tests.

johns hopkins are ramping up. we are working with private labs. this is one of the many issues that we're dealing with is ramping up private tests. testing is one part of the situation. we have an emergency coronavirus response team made up of some of the smartest doctors in the world from johns hopkins and university of maryland medical system and some of our top hospitals that we're working now on surge plans and ramping up to add 6,000 hospital beds and figure out how we will deal with our social distancing efforts, trying to flatten out that curve. we're also -- i ordered them to try to come up with a plan to ramp up 6,000 additional hospital betd beds, open close hospitals, transitioning hospitals, working with private and state hospitals. we called up 2,200 members of the national guard, including medical people and so we're looking to -- for the federal government to help with those

things. we're acting on our own and acting with our private sector partners. it's going to take every one of us working together. we don't have time to wait. >> yes. governor tell me, how are you balancing the needs of the people in your state regarding their health care versus obviously their economic needs, their economic concerns? you are quarantines put in place in san francisco. they are debating it in new york city right now. what are you thinking for baltimore? what are you thinking about the rest of the state? >> i think we were maybe the first state or one of the first states to declare a state of emergency 15 days ago. we have been taking unprecedented steps almost every single day. we were the first to close our schools in the state last thursday. we took major steps to -- for social distancing, closing bars and restaurants and nightclubs and every other facility out there. that's really absolutely necessary. it's inconvenient and it's scary

and it's disrupting people's lives. but it's absolutely critical to save hundreds of thousands of lives. we understand fully that in addition to that immediate need of saving people's lives 57bd p and protecting the health and welfare, it's goes to cause tremendous economic harm. we're trying to address those issues as well. we passed emergency legislature to deal with unemployment and providing money for assisting smaller businesses. we're happy that the congress seems to be acting in a bipartisan way, which is an unusual thing for washington. trying to deal with economic problems. that's the next wave. we have to do both at the same time. we're looking at first saving people's lives. second, how are we going to deal with the fallout economically? >> governor hogan, it's willie. you are the chair of the

national governors association. you speak for a lot of governors who are doing a great job at a state level trying to contain this and mitigate it. if you had an audience with president trump, if you had an audience with the coronavirus task force, which you may well as you speak here this morning, what would you say to them? what does every state need on this morning on this day? >> here is the good news. we have had -- i'm the chairman of the governors in the country. we have had three meetings with the vice-president, one with the president where we had a conference call. i was in the situation room twice. the rest of the governors were on a conference call. we have been talking on a regular basis and communicating well. we have told them exactly what we need. it seems to be changing every day. we have another call today with all the governors and nga later this afternoon. we will have over 50 governors, including some of the territories talking once again. we have been pushing a lot of issues. it's about getting ppe, personal

protective equipment. it's about testing. it's about getting -- every state is dealing with this. we need help from the federal government. each governor is -- we're on the front lines of this. each state is in a different situation. we're all in this together. i know there's been some criticism back and forth. i'm not here to finger point about who didn't do what yesterday. i want to focus on what we can get done today. that's really what we're trying to do. we're trying to put aside the republican/democrat, the white house this, the congress that. every one of us, we're all americans. we have to put aside that stuff and just get this job done. we, frankly, don't have time to wait. >> that's why i asked the question, because as you said, it's different every morning. i understand your needs. what about the hospitals? we heard from governors hospitals sounding the alarm about not only what's coming but what's already here. what are you hearing from those as you said world class hospitals in the state of maryland about what they need

this morning? >> yeah. maryland, we're not only the home of johns hopkins and university of maryland, n.i.h. and fda, we have smart folks. the needs are looking at if we don't flatten this curve out, the overwhelming, catastrophic demands on the health care system. we have done things like not only are we ramping up -- this is in consultation and working collaboratively with the private sector hospitals, with our health department and with our national guard and everybody else we can find. we're ramping up 6,000 beds. we activated licensed professionals, we have 800 of them now signed up to go into action. we called up national guard folks with medical capabilities. we're not going to have enough doctors and nurses. some are getting infected and sick or being quarantined. we're not going to have enough hospital beds, enough personal protective equipment, we don't have enough tests.

everyone is drinking from a fire hose and doing everything we can. it changes, as you know, as you are covering this, it changes not day to day or hour by hour but almost minute by minute. the pace of this is staggering. >> yeah. governor, the former lieutenant governor of your state, michael steele has a question. michael? >> governor, first off, as a citizen and resident, wasn't i thank you for the effort. it has been amazing how it has come together. i want to expand beyond the state of maryland in light of everything that you have said. on a regional basis, how is that coordination between maryland, virginia and the district of columbia with the governor and mayor, number one? number two, is there any thought to a shelter in place moment that you are considering as governor or that is being considered in the region to act

in a concerted way to get ahead of this virus in light of everything that you have done on the surge front, on the testing side? >> thank you, michael. we are working well together with the folks in the region. after we took action to close all the bars and restaurants, not too long after that, four or five hours later, the mayor of the district of columbia did the same thing in d.c. yesterday the governor took aggressive steps. we are all talking on a regular basis. we made suggestions about what to do with the washington metro system and relatively quickly a couple of hours later they agreed. we took steps yesterday to limit service to cut down to just the most important people. we're not spreading the virus more on some of our transit systems. we're working together like the governors association, the regional guys are working

together. i'm on the phone constantly with the folks in our region, people across the country. they were on many of our discussions with the governors and vice-president, they will be on the call with us later today. as far as the shelter in place, that's the next wave. there's really smart people in our maryland emergency management agency and our coronavirus response team that are discussing every possible eventuali eventuality. that's not something that right today we're looking at. right now we look at everything we can do to keep people in their homes, social distancing and ramping up our capacity to deal with this crisis from every direction. >> governor, we have a few seconds left. would you support the president mobilizing the military on a national scale to build military hospitals and do other things to combat the coronavirus? >> i think if the president or his team feel that there are missions that they can do, then i certainly would support it. like i said, we have already

called up 2,200 members of our maryland national guard. we're using the military. we have been. we had 400 activated last week. we activated more. i'm not sure how fast they can build military hospitals. like i said, we're opening closed hospitals, putting up tents for triage areas and we could use the help of the national military. >> larry hogan, thank you. >> it's going to take everybody. >> thank you. americans are feeling the financial impact from the outbreak. over the past 48 hours, state unemployment websites crashed. in kentucky, oregon and new york. a number of states have seen an uptick in the overall total of unemployment applications. in connecticut, 8,000 people applied for unemployment over the weekend. an eightfold increase over the norm. 15,000 people applied in new jersey on monday alone.

over 45,000 people applied for unemployment in ohio in the past week. up next, we will speak with a senator who says the senate needs to pass the second aid package right away and then turn immediately to a third one. the labor leader on what the warnings of 20% unemployment would mean for the country. we'll be right back. - [spokeswoman] meet the ninja foodi pressure cooker,

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the u.s. economy begins to feel the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. the trump administration is gearing up to propose a stimulus package of potentially more than $1 trillion. let's bring in dominic chu. unemployment numbers are scary. >> they are scary. it's something the treasury secretary kind of mentioned in

comments of around 20%. the curious part about this, the reason why we are following it so closely is because these are details that are coming in so fluidly. normally, the markets would have a better sense about how a trajectory is going. it seems as though the playing field gets changed or shifted, the rules have to change or shift every single maybe hour sometimes. for a lot of traders and investors, they don't know exactly what the overall theme is going to be if these efforts are going to work. what they know is with the continued uncertainty and the continued uncertainty around the trajectory of this virus and the economic impact, not just here in the united states but around the world as well, the trend has been to the down side. everybody who has been watching the market knows it. until that reverses, until there are more knowns about the infection rate, mortality rate, what the impact of the economy will be, the trend will continue

to be to the down side. that's what you are seeing today. >> you can can you explain some me? you will have a big down day. then the next day for some reason it seep seems irrationa me, you will have a big up day the next day, when there's no evidence that we know where the bottom is going to be. then we have a larger collapse. then a big up. like yesterday, stocks shot up for absolutely no good, logical reason. this is what i said the first time that this happened. i don't know anything about markets, but i'm not sure anyone would have bought stocks. the rolling shutdowns are beginning in the u.s. i think i wrote that a week or two ago when the markets kept collapsing. why do we have small rallies every other day only to have investors' money wiped out by a

collapse the following day? >> you bring up some very excellent points. these are points that investors a and traders are grappling with. there are certain mechanical factors in the market that lead to buy or sell certain things at certain times. there are also, i guess -- the best way to describe it is you are fighting a large variable here. that's human nature. the reason why i say that, it doesn't soft or touchy feely, but there are in many cases -- there's a term in the world of economics called animal spirit. at some point people tend to get motivated by some base need. that's to say, maybe fear or greed. if there are folks who believe things are going to get better. things will get better. we always emerge as a stronger country, a stronger nation, stronger everything. is there a sense that people are trying to time the bottom right now? things have gotten so darn cheap

from where they were. record highs two months ago. when a company that you say is a good company falls by 20%, 30%, sometimes 40%, it's like going to a sale after christmas day for everybody trying to clear out inventory. if you get the right price, that could be a wealth creator. these wild swings you are seeing are not just because there's so much fear out there but because there are in many ways -- i don't want to put this in the wrong context. there are folks who believe this will get better. it will get better. do you buy now because things have gotten so cheap? timing the market has been a very, very tough proposition. the interesting part is whether or not there are people throughout who feel as though the long-term viability of the stock market is still there a year from now, two, three, five years from now and whether or not these are the things you want to buy in. >> thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you skyping in. be well.

the problem is that we have -- again, i think i wrote that a week or so ago. there's still uncertainty. we don't know where the bottom is. we don't know how many people are sick. we still don't have tests. we don't know what happens if the hospitals are going to crash because we don't have this information. we don't know if unemployment as the treasury secretary said is 20%, 25%, does it go up to 30%? we have answers to none of these questions. for people going into the markets, thinking we have reached the bottom and that now is the time to buy and make money, it's irrational. it's really stupid. they keep doing it and keep losing money the next day. >> you talked about all the things we don't know. it's a long list. what we do know is the number of cases doubles every four days. that's on par with italy.

that's what we do know. we haven't seen this level of concern about the american work force since the great recession. joining us now, democratic senator jeff merkley of oregon and the president of the afl\cio, richard trumka. thank for joining us. >> senator, we will be with you in one second. i want to ask you, richard, what do you think about the idea -- we all need to fly on airlines. i get that. what do you think about the fact that these airlines spent the billions of dollars that they got from the trump tax cuts and didn't spend a dime on employees, didn't spend a dime on a rainy day fund, a dime on expanding the business. instead, they spent the overwhelming majority on stock buyback. now they come back asking for $50 billion more. >> that was outrageous. we're going to protect against that. we have several needs right now,

workers do. you are looking at a crisis. the first need, joe, is we have to have a contagious disease workplace standard so that every employer out there is protecting its employees. the second thing we need, we have a crisis of personal protective equipment right now. we have nurses cutting up gowns to make masks for themselves. the third thing we need, this is in order of importance, is paid sick days and then unemployment insurance and then health care and then make sure those bailouts are used to keep people on the job so there's no layoffs, no wage cuts and no benefit cuts. they don't try to use it to bust unions with. the idea is to keep them on the job. the first emergency is protecting those front line workers. we need somebody in the federal government right now, joe, that you can call, a governor can call or a health care facility can call and say, we need personal protective equipment, send it to us.

cut through the bureaucracy. there's a crisis right now. >> senator, how do we do that? as we move beyond it -- i was talking about a new yorker article earlier that said one of the problems with the that said one of the problems with the protective equipment is we get 90%, 95% of it from china. i would say that would be a problem if we goff 90%, 95% of it from nova scotia. how do we put ourselves in a position where we're think vulnerable. secondly how do we protect front line workers now and make sure all the money that washington is spending is protecting workers when they're at work and out of work. >> richard makes a great point. we've had calls that we need help right flow. i call up the head of the national strategic reserve and say what happened to the order

that oregon put in on march 3rd. march 12th they couldn't even find it. then had to call back up and say -- and so have you shipped? where is that truck? where is that pallet that got lost along the way? going back to your earlier discussion about the tests on february 5th w.h.o. had ship 250,000 tests? where was the leadership saying right now we need to put american industry to work making equipment, making these tests? we can do it -- if the rest of the world can do it, we can do it. the fact is that leadership was completely missing. now wee being caught way best hind, and as the surges, our workers on the front lines do not have the protection they need. >> senator, go ahead, richard. >> a decision was made early on

in this administration. the obama administration had a contagious workplace disease standard that was going to be issued by osha. when this administration came in, they swapped it, got rid of it. it would have required employers to have a plan, to educate their employees, and have the protection equipment on hand. so it would have been there, but they made the decision to do away with that. in addition to that, we have fewer osha inspectors on the job now than we've ever had in our history. we have fewer health specialists on hand than we've ever had in our history, so worker health and safety was put in the secondary round. joe, they spend $24 million on immigration enforcement and $2 billion protecting workers' health and safety. 12 to 1 difference. that's outrageous form. >> one of the reasons or workers

are on the crisis. >> and health care workers on the front line. senator, i know you've been in contact with your state health system, facing similar challenges. the president mobilized the military. he knows he has this at the dispos disposal, do you support the mobilization of military to set up hospitals across the country. >> if that's the fastest way to do it, then yes. we've gotten calls from colleges with empty dorm rooms. would these be useful? we have proposals of state-run operations, but we need a national plan. in the absence of the national plan, governors are being left on their own. what should we be do? how do we re-create what china did with the massive wuhan test hospital they set up within

within week? we have to be prepared. once we're overwhelmed, it's a question of who gets a ventilator? that's not a question we ever want to have to answer. >> snorp merkley, it's willie geist, you pushed through and the president i'm more than $8 billion in relief, but that's to cover what's happening right now. on the economic side you guys are debating a bit how much and what to give out to the american public, for example, the $1,000 check to go out to every american. is it fair to say just from the outside looking in, you have mitch mcconnell saying let's move quickly that democrats and republicans are working together on this, and something may move quickly on this next phase of economic relief? >> the word "quickly" i'm not

comfortable using. >> relatively. >> the house completed its work on the second factor, which was sick leave and unemployment et insurance and food and free tests. they completed that days ago. we don't even have the bill on the floor of the senate. mcconnell keeps saying we'll get to it. there's urgency here. the third package ear talking about is in the debate format. republicans are saying how do we affect wall street? democrats are saying we did that in the last crisis, and we found the workers never got taken care of. let's build this from the bottom up, from the families up, from the small business up. that's the way we can make a real difference for the quality of life of people and recover quickly. all right. senator jeff merkley, and richard trumka, thank you both for being on the show.

>> thanks so much. >> we really appreciate. we'll continue to cover this developing story. it seems to change every hour. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after a quick break. e e coverage after a quick break cooking and air frying now in one pot, and with tendercrisp technology, you can cook foods that are crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside. the ninja foodi pressure cooker, the pressure cooker that crisps.

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system, with millions of americans suddenly facing the prospect of no paycheck and possibly no job at at all. the number of cases that rose in part because of the widespread testing over 6200 cases have been reported. the death toll has soared past 100, it's now at 113. more and more industries are basically being forced to shut down. in nevada, the governor ordered all non-essential business to say close up, including all casinos. in some places employees are getting paid leave, but many small business versus no choice but to let people go entirely. unemployment claims have spiked all over this nation, threatening to crash computer systems in new york and oregon. in the state of kentucky they processed four times as many claims in one days ago than typically in one week. all of this is adding tohe