country, to do that sort of reduction? >> yes, i think if parole, parole is a state-run organization, done on the state level but city sentences or pre-trial on felonies, that's done at the local level with d.a.'s office and judges. >> i hope doch.a.s and judges listening. >> thank you very much for listening. rachel maddow is next. happy to have you with us. our set may look a little different tonight. i may look a little different. we're trying out a remote studio option to see how it works. we're going to have some of our guests tonight joining us by skype. we're just trying 0 ut a whole bunch of different things to see what works, while we try to make this broadcast as resilient and as permanent and as safe as

possible for everybody involved in producing it, including our crew of all different types, our staff, our guests, everyone. so if anything looks or sounds a little hinky, as we try out some new stuff, a, forgive me and please be patient, we will work it out, we are in this for the long haul and so we have to try to innovate. you are in this for the long haul as well. we all are. so let's jump right in. in italy, they have crossed a new threshold today. the number of people who died in italy from the coronavirus over the last 24 hours hit an all-time high. 475 deaths reported in the last 24 hours. that's the highest one-day death toll in any country, including china, since the start of the pandemic. 475 deaths in one day. italy has reported more than 300 deaths per day in each of the last four days. that itself is a terrible new standard.

china, when they were in the worst of it, they only once reported more than 200 deaths in a day. again, italy is at more than 300 deaths a day for four straight days and today, 475. the situation in italy remains the worse in the northern part of that country, particularly in the wealthy region of lombardi, which has now become basically the warning to the world of what will happen in countries all over the globe if they don't take serious steps to bring down the rate of infection as dramatically as possible and as quickly as possible. but it's worth knowing that the reason it's going so violently terribly wrong in italy, with more deaths per day than we have seen anywhere else, including china now, the reason it is going so badly wrong in italy is not because of something that is inherently wrong with italy and their health care system. quite the contrary. in 2017, the world health organization did a report on the health care system in italy, and

they were critical of some stuff, they wanted them to, you know, up their spending on some stuff, and realign their priorities in some ways, but honestly, by and large, the w.h.o. reports the italian health system was pretty good. here's part of that report. performance of the italian health system, quote, the relatively low mortality rates in italy suggest that the italian health care system is effective in dealing with life-threatening conditions. amenable mortality rates trended downward over the last decade. italy has a strong acute care sector. that's italy as a whole. northern italy itself is even better. northern italy, the richest part of italy, not some backwater, when it comes to advanced medicine, or advanced anything. i mean that's where they make the most expensive yachts in the world. that's literally where they make ferraris. and there are big modern hospitals there, full of lots of fully-qualified doctors and world-class equipment. and there, that place, is where

they're now losing more than 300 people a day. 475 deaths in the last 24 hours. chico harlen wrote this for the "washington post," and the last line, it will put your heart in your throat, quote, even as lockdown measures have gradually slowed the number of new cases, the country's death toll has exploded, more than twin ling in t , tripling in the span of a week, exponentially in the way that mirrors the growth total cases earlier this month, as people lose battles with the disease after several weeks. today the government of the hardest hit lombardi region said that medical facilities there will soon be unable to help the sick. quote we will soon be unable to give a response to those who fall ill. we will be unable to give a response. what he means there is that the hospitals in that region in italy are about to be unable to

treat people. as hundreds of people are dying every day. the hospitals are at the point of collapse. and that note there about the deaths in italy, now, mirroring the rise in new cases there, earlier this month, that's really the whole ball game. if there is a relationship between two numbers or two things or two trends that you have to understand, in order to know why all of the epidemiologists and health people are so freaked out right now, as well as the political leaders who get it, it is the different between these two number, the new cases followed three weeks later by the intensive care demand. mark lipsix explained in a piece about what our options are as a country, an epidemiologist who runs the center for

immunological dynamics at harvard university and he said today, memorable for all of us, he said, quote, intensive care demand lags new infections by about three weeks because it takes that long for a newly-infected person to get critically ill. and again, not everybody who gets infected will become critically ill, but the people who need critical care will start showing up in icus about three weeks after they became infected. so if this is the past month, in italy, showing the rise, rise, rise, of infections in italy, we will add in a three-week lag time and that's where you see the rise, rise, rise, in hospitalizations. a slice of those same new infections from three weeks ago are the people who are now critically ill and needing to be treated in hospital. and that is why their hospitals are collapsing. the steep rise in infections fortells by about three weeks, the collapse in their hospitals happening today.

that region's governor again saying that we will no longer be able to treat people in hospitals. that is the terrible news. that is why you keep hearing people talk about italy like it is the boogieman in this story. that is why new york officials in particular are sounding the alarm about the mirror between new york cases and italy, about how the steep rise in cases in new york now foretells a crush in hospitals here coming very, very soon, just as we have seen it play out in realtime in northern italy. there's some good news though from italy, as well today. and it is smaller scale good news but i will take good news where i can get it, the town in northern italy that recorded the first death from coronavirus is a town immediately called vo, that's one i can remember, vo, the name of the town, and my pronunciation is terrible, but there are about 3300 people in that town of vo, where they have the first deaths.

and they did a study, the local university, and they decided that what they were going to do in that town is that they were going to tests every single resident of the town. 3300 people. they tested everybody. they got 90 positive tests. including at least half a dozen people who were completely asymptomatic and would never have been otherwise identified had they not done this experiment in which they tested everyone regardless of symptoms. but they tested everybody, everybody who tested positive, they isolated them, and then after the period of isolation, they tested the whole town again. anybody newly positive again, isolated, well, after having done that, after having done universal testing and universal isolation of all positive cases, they have now gone days with no new cases in that town. and you don't want to extrapolate globally from one experiment in one town. but as a matter of principle,

mass testing does find asymptomatic people who are positive and therefore still infectious. and once you identify positive people, isolation can work, to stop people who are positive from giving it to anyone else. and if those are the principles which which you can extrapolate from that experiment, that at least gives you a way to plan for moving ahead. if only we could get a test for the virus in this country, maybe we could start to think about the implications of that for our big country, and the thousands of cases we've got here now. as our numbers really skyrocket. new york city had 814 cases as of yesterday. as of today, the number is 1,871. that is way more than doubling in a day in new york city. new york state has enough cases, that if new york state were a country, there would be only ten other countries on earth with more known cases.

in the united states, the worries about testing, and our hospital capacity, and how well we're taking care of our health workers, who after all, will be the people who run the hospitals, and take care of the sick, they are really screaming now as the american case numbers take off. tom bossert, is one of the people who is supposed to coordinate the national response to a pandemic for our federal government before he and his colleagues were all fired by the trump administration and the trump administration then just never hired anybody else to take that job, here is tom bossert's take on what we need to be doing now as of today, and what in two weeks we will wish we had spent today working on. >> we're like italy, and every reason to believe our numbers will grow along that line, we could see 2,500 dead in two weeks time, and we could see over 100,000 cases, and those are planning assumptions, not predictions, but if that's the case, in two weeks, i'll look back on today and said i wish i

had done three things, and they would be personal protective equipment, personal protective equipment, and personal protective equipment. because these doctors that we just saw interviewed, if they're absent, they can't take care of us and they can't use those ventilators so that's my fear today and i think that's where we should be focused. >> we're going to look back on this day two weeks from now and what we wish we would have focused on is three things, personal protective equipment, personal protective equipment, personal protective equipment. tom bossert, one of the officials who would have been in charge of coordinating this response for the u.s. federal government had, the trump administration not fired all of the pandemic response teams from the federal government two years ago. this is from "the wall street journal" today, quote, administrate eves at renton, administrators at the renton washington headquarter, the providence health system, are in conference room, assembling makeshift face shields from vinyl elastic and two-sided tape, because supplies are drying up. providence, a system of 51

hospitals across seven states has less than a week's supply of face shields and medical masks at its seattle area hospitals. literally, that's how we're dealing with this, in this country. in one of the places that had the earliest experience with large numbers of cases. at the hospital, they are making face masks themselves. like the hr people and the accountants and the managers at the hospital are all sitting in conference rooms with stuff they got at hobby stores and hardware stores, mcgyver face masks for the doctors and nurses to use to protect themselves in their hospital. that's our level of preparedness as a country. even though we got advanced notice that countries who had it worst than us than before us, so we can see how it is going to go, that's how we're coping. in massachusetts hospitals they're rationing testing of coronavirus for today, not only because of a shortage of tests

but because in massachusetts, they even have a shortage of the big swabs, the tq-tip type things to collect the samples. they don't have those either. in kirkland washington, part of the way the virus spread to nine different nursing homes there was this chain reaction that led to 129 new cases in 11 days, they've done an epidemiological study of how it happened, and how it spread to those nine nursing homes and part of what happened is staff spread it from facility to facility in part because they had a lack of access to personal protective equipment. because we haven't prioritized that. even for staff who are working in cases, in places where there are known clusters, and with patients who are known to have been exposed. so things are moving very fast now. obviously. the response, obviously, is

nowhere near the size of the task. the first member of congress to test positive for the virus is mario diaz ballart, florida congressman and the first to be testing positive and if his name is familiar, he is the brother of our beloved colleague jose, who you know from msnbc and telemundo. in the last hour, a second member of congress, ben mcadams from utah, has announced he too has tested positive for the virus. the federal government announced today that they will deploy hospital ship, u.s. navy hospital ships to try to provide hospital overflow capacity, one in new york, and one in some undetermined location on the west coast, while that seems good, it should be noted that that will take a number of weeks to get up and running. and all major u.s. automakers announced the shutdown of their plants, in the u.s., and canada, and mexico today, there's been

some nonspecific murmurs from the administration that u.s. manufacturing facilities, including potentially auto facilities might be repursed , repurposed to start building ventilators for intensive care units, and that seems more kind of aspirational or brain storming at the moment but you may have seen headlines about that today as the administration tries to advance that concept at least. tonight ford motor put out a statement confirming they have had preliminary discussions with the federal government about the possibility of producing ventilators and other equipment. palm springs, california, today, adopted a shelter in place order that's like the one that is in effect now for seven million people in the san francisco bay area but so far those shelter in place orders are just in california. the u.s. canada border is closed for nonessential travel in both directions now. the economy's crash continues unabated with another 1300 point

loss in the dow today even as the federal government unveiled new proposals for big stimulus spending to try to shore things up. we will get expert advice on those proposals coming up later this hour. delta airlines announced today that they're cutting 70% of their flights. the nation's airports announced today that without their own bailout, they may start defaulting on the bonds that were sold to pay for their construction. the largest shopping mall operator in the country announced that it is shutting all of its properties nationwide, after a four state consortium of new york, new jersey, connecticut, ordered retail shopping places shut, including amusement parks and bowling alice. even as there is more and more focus of what states are pioneering new ideas, about what they can do to shut down and slow the spread of the virus, it's also worth noting, we spend all of this time saying california is trying, this the bay is trying this, this city is trying this, schools are shut

down here, we've been talking about the places where new stuff is being tried, where new strictures are being announced, look at it from the other side, though, too it is worth noting that there are a bunch of states in this country that aren't doing much at all. we checked with the national governor's, so which is tracking state by state responses and i was shocked to find that there are seven states as of right now where there are no mandated bans on gatherings of any size, there are no state mandates ordering restaurants or bars or any businesses to close, and there's no state mandate for school closures. none of those things. and idaho, mississippi, missouri, oklahoma, tennessee, texas, wyoming. no state mandated school closures. no state-mandated limits on large gatherings. no state mandates on the operations of businesses like bars and restaurants. now, in some of these cases, there are, you know, recommendations, nonbinding recommendations, urgings, strong

feelings, expressed by leaders, and within these states, some schools and some businesses have followed their own lead, or followed those urging the nonbinding recommendations, you know, local school districts, having to make those calls themselves, but in all seven of those states, no statewide rules. because sure, why not, make it up yourself. see how it goes. now, no reason to panic, right? no reason to hustle. let's see how this plays out. joining us now is donald mckneel, a veteran science and health reporter at "the new york times," covered aide, ebola, swine flu and bird flu for the times and mr. mcneil did some of the pioneering reporting on the pandemic at the very inception and a bit of a voice in the wilderness from those early days warning how bad this would get and how quickly. mr. mcneil, thank you for coming back and i appreciate your time. i will ask you that i ask every

time, have i said anything since the show started that is wrong or wrong-headed and sometimes those in the media are sometimes said to put the emphasis in the wrong place. >> no, everything you said is correct. i'm shocked at those states that are doing nothing. there is just, i mean they're asking for it. when donald trump uses the expression, you know, the virus is going to wash through the country, and he does it with this hand motion like washing through like a gentle breeze, that is a very common expression of epidemiologists, the virus will wash through the population, and they mean it will wash through the population like a tidal wave, with no immunity, that's what we're facing, it is not some gentle breeze going through the country, it's a tidal wave, and they're doing nothing to hide behind a barrier to protect themselves. >> the surgeon general is now admitting something that you have been saying for a while,

which is we're now on a point, on our own epidemiological curve where you can basically see our future by looking at the time line of where italy was about ten days or two weeks ago. if that is where we're heading, with the death rates spiking, now, in italy, with the lombardi government, the governor saying we are about to not be able to offer care in hospitals anymore, if that's where we are, what priorities should we derive from that, what are the single, what are the most important things our medical system should be doing right now, to prepare for that happening to us within two weeks? >> okay, i will predict that we, since we are going down the path of italy and much bigger country than italy, that we will surpass italy in the number of dead in a few weeks because we are following the italian model, not the asian model.

i don't united states why we're looking at a small town like vo in italy, when that same situation, when you have to test and isolate as many people as possible, was a lesson learned in cities all over asia months ago. and we have been paying very little attention to what they're doing. i talked before about doing fever checks at every building, and doing testing as much as possible. and how you do the safe testing, but on hospital preparation, there is, we're doing things like ending elective surgery at hospitals, which is great, that is step number one, fine, but in china, and in other places, they segregated the hospitals, they said, okay, you three hospitals are going to be designated to do nothing but covid-19 patients, and the others are going to handle the heart attacks and the babies that need to be born and the car crashes and everything else, because we don't want the coronavirus patients infecting the regular emergency patients.

if they couldn't do that, they would create separate wings in the hospital. it was basically known as the dirty wing and the clean wing. the wing of the hospital had nothing but coronavirus patients, and the other side had nothing but other emergency patients. and the two staffs never crossed the zone. it was assumed that like those nursing home employees, they would carry the virus from one side to the other. inside those hospitals, inside those hospitals, they would build walls in the wings with windows in them so that a ward became an isolation ward and you went into it basically like you do into an ebola treatment center with a gray area where you put on your personal protective gear, under the eyes of the nurse to see you do it perfectly and go through the ward in one direction only and come out at the other end when you finished with the patients and then take off your gear under the eyes of a nurse. that's what they've been doing with ebola wards with chlorine

showers and you have to take it off carefully because it can contaminate you. the other thing they did all over asia, is for the mild case, the mild to moderate cases, in other words, people who did not need to be hospitalized, they didn't go home. they went into isolation centers. they went into, you know, we have all sorts of empty buildings around now. madison square garden is empty. the barclay's center is empty. school gymnasiums all over the city. those become sort of miniature hospitals for the people who are infected, but don't need to be put into a hospital. because that way, they don't infect their own families. it's, it's 80%, 75 to 80% of the clusters there, were spread within families and it's important to stop that. and these were, you know, they were bed, oxygen tents, basic care, but that's how you brought people through and in there for two or three weeks and most recovered and were able to go home and they were survivors and they were able to donate blood to help other people survive.

they were able to walk the streets. they're okay. they've recovered. and they're thrilled. we're not planning that here as far as i can tell. >> my guest is donald mcneil, science and health reporter with "the new york times," who has incredible international experience with these things. i would like to ask you to stay with us a bit longer in part because i want to ask you about the piece which was posted with "the new york times" which offers some of the first hopeful signs i've seen about a potential out of the box surveillance tool to get a handle how big this is and where clusters are arising. if you don't mind sticking us with, we'll be right back with donald mcneil from "the new york times." stay with us. nald mcneil from "k times. stay with us all your life, you've been told, "business first, fun later." but why not live your dream, now? ♪ the mercedes-benz spring event is here with four models starting under $37,000. you gotta ask yourself,

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we may not have a lot of coronavirus testing in this country, but we do have a lot of people all over the country who are realizing that they have fevers. fever is one of the most consistent symptoms for the onset of coronavirus.

this company called kinsa health, that makes thermometer, and what makes the company different, and what makes their product different, is that their temperatures connect to an app on the smartphone and if you connect to the thermometer and load it into the app and you connect to the app, that reading is saved for you so you can track your temperature over time on the app and then uploaded and sent to the hospital. you can set to do that when you use the thermometer. the company in turn tracks that data. and they map that data. and that has made the company uncannily good in the past at predicting upticks in the flu around the country. for the last few years, kinsa says interactive maps have accurately predicted the spread of flu around the united states about two weeks before the centers for disease control's own surveillance tool. so the cdc maps flu outbreaks as they happen every year.

this app that tells you where people in the country have fevers turns out to be even better at it than the cdc. the smart thermometer appears to be useful for spotting fevers and in this case, it may be very useful for spotting more than just the ordinary flu. there's brand new reporting on this just outed on it from donald mcneil at "the new york times" and it's fascinating. according to the report, kinsa health is already tracking the coronavirus in realtime. something that had been impossible given the lack of testing for the disease. literally the interactive maps from this company, from these thermometers that they have sold all over the country, are providing data about where coronavirus case clusters may be emerging. this reporting tonight is a big deal. and this technology could make a difference in identifying new epicenters of the coronavirus as they start to pop up all around the country. the story broke tonight, we had

donald mcneil booked to talk on the show tonight, while i got that news, i was looking at my own, one of these thermometers, because i own one, i have been using it about, to be honest, five times a day, to take my temperature, as i have been trying out various work environments and dispersing our staff around the country, to try and get this show produced as much as possible. back with the reporter who broke the story tonight, mr. mcneil, science and health reporter at "the new york times," donald, thank you very much for sticking with us. first, let me ask you if i hit the high points there and aspect aspect, accurately summarized what is so enticing or useful about this technology. >> yes, you have explained it incredibly well for somebody who has never seen it before, and i think the company owes you a finder's fee. i'm kidding. but yes, i mean i've been watching this company for about two and a half years now, since the guy who started it came to

visit me at "the times" and he shed me the notion of hey, and he showed me the notion of hey, i have these thermometers scattered across the country in stores and handed out to school children in health education programs and two million data points and they can produce maps where fevers are popping up all over the country that same morning as people get up to take their temperature and their kid's temperatures and they know what the flu is, by the algorithm if it is a high temperature for three days in a row, we assume that's flu, rather than a regular cold. so now, they've taken this data, and working with a professor at oregon state, they've mapped the, basically the complete history, the typical range of flu in every zip code in the country, for years past. they know the high and the low of the range. and so they know once the season starts and they're tracking it, where you might expect flu to be

in brooklyn at this point now, mid-march, as the flu season is winding up. and literally, in my neighborhood in brooklyn, they showed me, look, there are many, many more fevers being reported from brooklyn than we would have predicted with our flu-month-old. and we don't know what those fevers are, but the obvious explanation is, those might be the coronavirus. and sure enough, just last week, they were seeing a big spike of extra fevers, if you want to call them, they basically subtract the flu data out and what is left looks like the coronavirus data. they saw that in florida. florida was not reporting a lot of covid-19 cases. and now it is. now it's an epicenter. they predicted it several days in advance. so what's great about that, is you know where to bring your testing kits and personnel and where to look for the virus if you can use these tools instead of blindly testing people in every walmart parking lot in the country because the worried are

coming in, in a panic, causing traffic jams. >> obviously, for all of these things, more data is always better, but with the kind of sample size that they've got and in your report, you say about a million of the thermometers in use around the country, does that give you an accurate sample size for national surveillance? i guess it gives you a place to start, if there isn't any other form of widespread testing or monitoring going on that could direct public testing methods by any other means. >> well, a million data points is a lot more than the cdc has, and it set going weekly reports from doctor's offices and emergency rooms and things like that. these things have started selling at the rate of 10,000 a day. so they're running into production problems. but they're getting a whole heck of a lot more data as a result of it. and you know, this means their algorithm is just going to get better at predicting this virus. and unfortunately the cdc has

basically ignored them for three years when they came to them and say hey we got something, and we think we got something and cdc grabs your intellect ual property, they want the rights to the data to publish it, and this is a mistake. i talked to an expert today who said why is a private company running a foot race against the cdc? and possibly beating it, when they ought to be cooperating and we could use this to predict, they were very excited, the person i talked to, said this is 21st century, you know, data gathering, and we're stuck with a mid 20th century very labor intensive system where, you know, a nurse at every doctor's office in the country writes down a report and sends it to the cdc at the end of the week. this is realtime. the minute you take your child's temperature, they have the data. >> fascinating. donald mcneil, a reporter for "the new york times," i really appreciate you taking the time to talk us to tonight. i know you're in the middle of all of your own work.

it is a public service for you to talk to us about these emerging stories. thank you. much more ahead. breaking news out of china, since we've been on the air, for the first time since the coronavirus virus began, china tomorrow, so the time zone difference, china will report no new local infections for the first day, for the first time, since this crisis started, they will have no new local infections for the first time, which is a point of hope for every country in the world, who is still on the upswing, most especially us. swick with us. stay with us. stay with us ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the windtay with ♪ tay with us. ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ all we needed somebody to lean on ♪ ♪ ♪

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we are all about to find out what it feels like when the american economy grinds to a lalt. plenty of americans are already experiencing it. this week, today, this was the end of a "the wall street journal" report this afternoon on the wave of job losses sweeping across the country right now, when jenny johnson

referred word a week ago that her hours at a seattle staffing firm were cut in half, she focused on the positive, more time to focus on her son and fiance and then her husband to be a prep cook and dish washer saw all of his shifts evaporate, they are worried about food and paying the electricity bill. she is feeling terrified. on tuesday, she is laid off entirely. multiply that story by a thousand, by a million, by many million, and new data today already shows thousands of americans being laid off because of the coronavirus pandemic. those who explicitly do not include the job cuts at bars and restaurants forced to shut down across the country, there are nearly three million waiters and waitresses alone, in america, there are as many jobs in food service in america as there are in manufacturing. and manufacturing is shutting down, too.

ford, gm, and fiat chrysler shuttering u.s. factories at least through the end of this month. unemployment claims have skyrocketed so fast this week, it's straining the computer networks of state unemployment systems. the state of kentucky, for example, they usually process 2,000 unemployment claims a week, and they got 9,000 unplacemeu unemployment claims yesterday alone. the stock market continued its collapse today. now we're in this pattern where it does swing wildly around every once in a while, but thousand plus point drops in the dow are a day that ends in "y" now and there appears to be consensus across the political world, the pandemic has a the potential for a recession but the great economic collapse like the great depression. is it possible to avert it? is there anything we can do as a

society to stop that from happening? the senate got around to approving and the president is looking at free paid insurance for coronavirus testing and the paid sick leave applies to only about 20% of american workers. thanks. now to the white house and congressional republicans, they reportedly working on a trillion dollar measure that may send a couple of $1,000 checks directly to many americans, and that would also infuse cash into businesses large and small, to try to keep them alive, to try to keep them afloat, to try to keep workers paid. are those the kind of measures that we need? are they enough? how do we know? and what's the smartest way to go about deciding whether or not we have confidence? that's true. and i have just the person to ask. here with us next. stay with us. on to ask. here with us next. stay with us unt on is boost high protein. and now, introducing new boost women...

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about the economy tonight, you might have a new single issue soul mate in washington, d.c. >> i've been a few of these. i was here at 9/11. i was here during the financial crisis in 8:00. i was here during the fiscal situation. we occasionally have these great crises, and when they occur, we're able to rise above our normal partisanship, and many times, our normal positions. because these are not ordinary times. this is not an ordinary situation. and so it requires extraordinary measures. >> extraordinary times mean extraordinary measures. details are still being hammered out but the ideas for a new stimulus include two rounds of checks sent directly to individual americans, loans to small businesses, $50 billion just for the airline industry, more than a trillion total.

are there right and wrong ways to do this sort of thing? what more will need to be done if this is done? will this stimulus of this amount be enough to stave off what is being described as an imminent economic collapse? joining us now is jared bernstein, the former top economic adviser to vice president biden and he is good at explaining things to us who are not economists. great to see you. thanks for making time for us tonight. >> of course. my pleasure. >> if they are willing to spend this kind of money, if this is the situation we're talking about, and if you could design what the federal government was going to do, the necessary thing to do, with the amount of money that large -- >> well, great place to start is to think precisely about the type of folks that are most vulnerable to the type of economic shock we're seeing unfold in realtime, and in the segment before our discussion

here, you talked about exactly that type of person. someone who is facing a cut in their hours, or a layoff, who doesn't have paid leave, who almost certainly has almost no savings to fall back if this person and their family misses a paycheck for a week or two, they're facing fundamental problems meeting their basic needs for food and rent and they could be facing both hunger and eviction. and so we have to design measures that target those folks and get out the door very quickly. now, i'm very glad to finally see some of the urgency that many of us have been talking about for awhile now, reflected in congress. you heard that from mitch mcconnell, there is still yet a dollar to go out the door with economic stimulus so therefore they're behind the curve i'm

describing. >> what do you think the government is capable of with speed? it's not unprecedented to literally send people money away or another to immediately stimulate the economy and stem off a collapse? we did something like this in 2008 in the middle of the financial collapse there, too. i remember it taking months. they're talking about trying to get the first of these payments out in a couple of weeks. does that seem feasible to you? >> i think it might be on the edge of feasible. you're right. it took three months last time in 2008. i think the check or tax rebate was passed in february and it got out in may. i've never seen anything like this get out in two weeks and i should say that the folks who are saying that don't have the credibility track record need i tell you that leaves one with a lot of confidence and in fact, while i think there are positive attributes to their plan, a number of us have been arguing that precisely these type of checks, targeted low and middle income people are the probably one of the best first ways out

of the door to help folks who are soon going to be without paychecks or already in that situation. it could take longer than a few weeks but i'm quite certain we can do it in less than three months. something that was missing, though, from the package discussed today, this $1 trillion package is significantly strengthen the unemployment insurance system. there is a bit of that in the bill that the senate passed but it was really quite marginal. it essential that we stand up our state level unemployment insurance system so they can meet what is an on slot of layoffs in the coming weeks. >> what do you say to people who wonder where a trillion dollars comes from? we have fights in washington all the time ideologically driven fights and priorities fights about amounts of money that are many orders of magnitude smaller than this. what do you say to people who look at something like this and say where will they throw a

trillion dollars to do something on this with zero notice and why couldn't have had the money for other things? >> it's an easy question to answer. one thing that is kind of working in our favor now is because of the flight to safety meaning that is investors got out of the stocks, they get into bonds, and that lowers the interest rates that the government has to pay on the borrowing it does. interest rates are extremely low but here is the thing, rachel, i have a feeling you and i discussed this maybe going on over a decade now, the right time to ask the question where are you going to get the trillions is when you're contemplating a deeply wasteful tax cut that isn't necessary to help the economy get out of a recession. what we're talking about now is what economists tell spending in order to meet the shock, this negative economic shock that is

caused by the economic impact of the virus. that kind of deficit spending is not just legitimate but it's essential. now, what makes life difficult sometimes when you're in this fiscal condition is if you've already spent your sort of fiscal outlet with wasteful tax cuts, but the point is that the treasury markets, the borrowing markets are saying you have all the fiscal space you need to do what it takes so we should not hesitate at all. what messes up your fiscal account in the long term is not temporary measures to offset a recession, it's permanent tax cuts. >> jared bernstein, fellow at the center for budget and policies and former economic advisor to vice president biden. thank you for your time and helping us understand this. stay well. >> we got one more bit of news to get to tonight. we'll be right back, stay with us. ght. we'll be right back, stay with us

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ohio was supposed to hold the democratic presidential primary with three other states, ohio did not. they postponed their election on orders of the state health officer just hours before the polls were due to open. in the three states that did vote last night, vice president joe biden won by really big margin margins. in florida he won all 67 in route to a 40-point victory. in illinois, which was the state where senator sanders actually kept it close to hillary clinton in 2016, biden beat sanders by 23 points and arizona biden also won by a double digit margin. he won by 12. going forward, democratic primary contests have been postponed in five states to come preschoumably more will be adde. interestingly alabama postponed their primary run off for senate. they postponed that until july. that's of national interest because that's the race where

attorney general jeff sessions is trying to get his senate seat back but in the democratic presidential primary with biden doubling his delegate lead last night, there's reasons to believe the democratic primary may be coming to an end anyway functionally if not formally. it would come to an end formally if senator bernie sanders decided to end his campaign. as of this morning, the sanders campaign pulled all of it digital ads off facebook. they haven't reserved any tved as ads beyond this week. quote, while our campaign won the battle of ideas, we're losing the battle over electability to joe biden. instead of ending with donate here button, linked to the coronavirus plan. tonight, "the washington post" reports that staffers to both candidates have been in touch regularly to discuss the public health crisis that's gripping the country, disclosing talks that could form the basis of a broader agreement on policies and might me