good morning. it's saturday, march 21st. i'm ali velshi. a growing chorus of world cleer leaders are making the obvious clear. multiple states issued measures never before seen in an attempt to stop the spread of covid-19. california and illinois have gone as far as to order citizens

to stay at home unless absolutely necessary. the governor of california warned half of the state's population. 25.5 million people could contract the disease. there is a coronavirus task force pressor set for noon eastern time today. yesterday's was a disaster with the president contradicted twice by anthony fauci and attacking a reporter who asked him simply who he can say to comfort an anxious nation. last night, we learned a staffer for vice president pence tested positive for covid-19. in the united states, there are now 19,144 confirmed cases and 247 deaths. one of the deaths is hit close to home. our nbc news and 30 rock colleague larry edgeworth. the guy you wanted by your side no matter where you were. larry died thursday after a week being diagnosed with covid-19.

he leaves behind a wife and two sons. worldwi worldwide, 275,000 confirmed cases. in europe, middle east and here in the united states, there's no doubt the world we knew just a couple of weeks ago has now change td forever. what is the new one going to look like? that's a question we're investigating in depth throughout the hour. joining me now is assistant professor at new york langone center dr. natalie azar. correspondent kimberly at k doctoatkins. staff writer at the new yorker sheila. she is the author of the book "black edge." inside information and quest to bring down the most wanted man

on wall street. welcome to all of you. thank you for joining us. natalie, let me start with you. where in your evaluation, because there is so much information that has been coming in over the last 24 hours. where are we in the infection and the fight against it? >> well, ali, it is almost impossible to answer. the scope is astonishing. i had a conversation that we were scrambling to report old first case and here we are where we are. things are moving at rapid fire pace at my institution with changi changing guidelines with limited and reuse of personal equipment. capacity has changed in 24 hours where we are no longer doing outpatient services anymore starting at the end of the week hospitalized patients. the demand for testing and for

personal protective equipment has far outpaced the supply in spite of the reassurance. it isn't going anywhere that i can see. >> kimberly, yesterday at the coronavirus task force pressor where the president was, he was contradicted twice by dr. anthony fauci about things he said. he got into a little bit of a match with peter alexander for something unprovoked. he told pbs when she said when every american who needs to be tested gets to be tested. she said there are reports of people not being tested. he said i haven't heard those. clearly we know from our reporting there are many americans who want to be tested who can't be tested and the administration is saying otherwise. >> yes, we hear from journalists

who hear from citizens about how they can't get access to testing. even in states like washington, which was the first hot spot here in the united states. testing is still not available for everyone. we hear it from public officials. state officials, governors, local folks, first responders that testing is not available. it shows the citidisconnect wite message the president wants to put forward that everything is under control and a strong federal response ahead of the virus. that doesn't seem to be the case. we see increasingly problems that are happening on the ground and people who don't have information and don't know the right information. that is in part because as you said when the president stands up in front of the nation during a press conference, he is contradicting the facts being given by his own administration including dr. fauci. >> one of the points of

contradiction, dr. natalie, was the idea of chloroquine and hydroxyohloroquine. these are drugs used to treat maliyama l laymal laymalar laymalaria. donald trump said there is a medicine on the market to help with covid-19. >> right. so the back story here is in relationship to the medicines chloroquine and hydroxyohloroquine. particularly the latter which has been available for certainly as an anti-malaria. this is a disease modifying drug for lupus patients. patients with lupus who discontinue plaquenil are at

increased risk for flare. and we know that hydroxyohloroquine can inhibit the virus into the cell and appears to demonstrate the ability to replicate the virus. it would be an effective treatment. there is clinical data from china and france that can it impact the course of the disease. it is currently or should say university of minnesota is enrolling a clinical trial to use in individuals and health care workers who are exposed for a five-day course. this led to the really national crisis in terms of hydroxyohloroquine availability because people rushing out to be prescribed the medicine. at the risk of, you know, limiting the availability to patients whose disease and lives depend on it. there's been as far as i can see, novartis has pledged to

donate millions of tablets and manufacturers have done the same. the problem to your point was that the president, i think, falsely first stated it was fda approved for it. it is not. it is repurposed indication. not fda to treat coronavirus. as dr. fauci made clear that we would assume it could be effective. we would need to do the clinical trials to establish that before widespread use for the indication. >> kimberly, let's talk about what is going on in washington. they are trying to come together on a stimulus bill. i'm speaking to a number of lawmakers in the next hour to figure out where we are. you written an article about what massachusetts wants and doesn't want. it may be representative of what people around the country want and don't want. we have an economy that is closing in on us right now with 1 in 5 americans under lockdown right now. they are not buying and not

going out. restaurants are closing. caves are closing. lots of businesses are closing. what is it that your reporting indicates that people want and don't want out of washington right now? >> of course, members of the massachusetts delegation, all democrats, including leadership in both the house and the senate want to make clear they want this package to focus on people getting relief to americans. that being the centerpiece of it and not focused only on giving big breaks to corporations and companies. shoring up companies and industry is important, too. they don't want it to be at the expense of people. they are listening to the constituents afraid how they pay student loans. they want student loan debt cancellation. larger amounts of money given to citizens. republicans suggested $1,200 per

american and $500 per child. joe kennedy wants $4,000 for every american. there is a difference there in terms of how far unemployment benefits apply. they want it applied to part-time workers as well. the gig economy folks. uber drivers and other things that may not qualify for unemployment. they want them covered, too. they want the broadest possible protection for americans to weather this at the same time they want companies to be held responsible. they don't want, for example, companies to get relief and use it to buy back their own stock. that's part of the negotiation that continues to go on. today, there was a deadline, but lawmakers on both sides of the aisle on capitol hill are continuing to work through the day to get that bill agreed to. >> it's one thing about buying your own stock. companies buying their own stock and laying off workers or not

allowing workers to take paid time off or not giving them pay if the restaurant or cafe closes. we will discuss that with sheila when she comes in. you talked about congressman kennedy. he will join me at 9:30. natalie, one last thing. there is reporting that digestive issues may be an early sign of contracted the infection. what do we know about this? >> yeah, initially when the first 138 patients were studied out of wuhan a couple of weeks ago when the journal reported on this, they commented a small percentage presented with gi symptoms which was a concern. they were not immediately identified as covid-19 patients and not in isolation. this is out of the wuhan cohort. patients who presented with gi symptoms made the minority. less than 5%.

patients presenting with gi symptoms and respiratory symptoms approached 50%. again, not to be ignored. the most common symptom was a decreased appetite followed by diarrh diarrhea. they found patients with gi symptoms and respiratory symptoms did the worst. i think the message to the american public is if you have a gi illness, i would not immediately assume this was, but the gi symptoms preceded the respiratory symptoms. follow for the development of those. >> it gets complicated, natalie, with so pain experience the stress and anxiety they are experiencing, people get shortness of breath and people get gi symptoms because they are anxious about everything and you have to determine if it is a symptom of the infection. as you and i have been talking about, it is hard for us not medically trained. dr. azar and kimberly, thank

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this week started the new reality from big things from multiple deaths across the country to smaller things like the first time in my career that i'm doing a show from my home. everything's going to be different now. when we come through this, things will have changed drastically. the different doesn't have to be bad. every health crisis and economic down turn left imprint on society and the generation that lived through it. how this defines us is within our control. we can take the moment to change the policies that failed us. america is the richest nation on

earth. this morning, 37.5 million americans, many children, will struggle to feed themselves. 30 million americans lack health insurance. this morning, half million americans woke up in homeless shelters or on the streets. this happens every single day in the richest country in the world. when it comes to changing big policies, the response is that it costs too much or it's too hard to do. how will you pay for it, we ask? we all know, even the privileged among us like me, that our capitalism is broken. it does mean we have to fix it. we will have to spend a lot of money and do some things that are really hard to do. so why not do it right? why not be the first generation that fixes wealth disparity and income inequality and universal health care and poverty and racial economic inequality and

under funded debt and underpaid teachers and nurses who may save your life in the coming weeks? by the way, how about the climate? during the crisis, we have put about $500 million a day into propping up financial markets. not one new cent on economic inequality and justice. these are not expenses. they are investments into the future. there's no question we are in a moment of darkness. in the darkness, let's discover the capacity for positive change. we'll get through this stronger in our faith and reliance upon one another. rugged american individualism may be replaced by the realization that we are our brothers and sisters' keepers. let's be sure when history looks back on this moment and rights that we changed, it remembers we took this once in a lifetime chance to make our world a more just society.

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there's new and deeply troubling reporting from the washington post that said the trump administration knew in add vafrns an aggressive approach needed to combat the coronavirus. they were issuing classified warnings in january and february while the president downplayed the threat. officials tell the post, trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of people in the government were. they could not get him to doing anything about it. the system was blinking red. many former obama administration officials responded to that report like my next guest who tweeted, when the president refuses to read his intelligence report, lots of people die. that's reality. this is not a reality tv show.

to those who enabled him, you have blood on your hands. joining me now is arne duncan. he served as the secretary of education from 2009 to 2015. arne, thank you for joining us. let me ask you about this. there were lots of reports over the last three years that the president doesn't like to digest and read these intelligence reports. this could be him ignoring it. if you recall, two weeks ago, he said in response to passengers on the cruise ship off the west coast, i don't want them coming in. it will double our numbers for something that's not our fault. there are two forces at play. a president that does not take his intelligence briefings seriously and a president trying to downplay the effects of coronavirus since the beginning. i don't know which one this is and which reason makes it worse. >> it is honestly makes me furious. it is mind boggling to me. i remember the size of the briefing books that president obama had to take home every night and study.

i remember the size of my briefing books were not as large as his. these are serious jobs. you have to study and you have to do your homework and be prepared. you cannot rely on your gut or hunch or whatever. the fact, as you said accurat y accurately, he is for political reasons trying to downplay the numbers and the fact he is wildly unprepared. not prepared to handle anything of this magnatude is devastating. >> and there was intelligence which could have avoid the 9/11. we now started to learn from the lessons. we have the homeland security department. in this particular case, this does not seem to be a failure of intelligence or information or failure to project. in 2017, the outgoing obama

administration briefed the incoming administration about the potential of the pandemic. it was worked out and thought about and the administration was caught flat footed. >> you have to focus and pay attention and you have to care and be competent. you have to have empathy. unfortunately far too many of the traits are utterly lacking with the current president. in good times, you can get by. in tough times, it is scary. in times like this, a once in a century pandemic, the consequences are beyond devastating. >> secretary duncan, you were the school superintendent in chicago for more than seven years. we're facing a couple of problems with public schools e right now. students are not in school. home schooled by parents with no preparation or ability to do that. they are working online with teachers who are well meaning. and the other issue is the

students who get one or two meals at school per day. how do we think about public school and feeding the children in. >> for the lack of leadership at the federal level and state and local legvel, i have seen a number of leadership. a number of food providers providing meals around the country. i did a call with 12 superintendents of school systems. these are public servants thoughtful and creative. they are thinking about a couple of different things concurrently. first, schools now have become food distribution centers and giving out food at schools and food along bus lines. children are not hungry now. what happens when unemployment goes up? they are doing all they can to make sure children and siblings and parents are fed and doing that in record numbers. the numbers are growing every single day. secondly, some schools closed are now becoming child care

providing locations. so that first responders can have a safe place for their children to go when the doctors as nurses and firefighters and folks working in grocery stores have a safe place for their children. a combination of high tech and low tech solutions to help students learn. you have school systems giving out devices to everybody. you have school systems along bus routes dropping off packets of homework and bpicking them u. people are working hard. teachers and principals to stay connected to students. my wife and i have two children at home. the home-schooling thing is real. we will work through it together. we are learning together. we will build on successes. things that are not working will stop. it is devastating to be out of school, but we have to be out of school now. i would not be surprised if all of the schools across the country close in the upcoming week. this is about more than education. we are trying to protect communities and trying to save lives. that's what school systems and

schools are doing now. i could not be more proud of what i'm seeing at the ground level. >> secretary, this is a combination of crisis and tragedy. the tragedy of the people who have died and who will die, but a crisis because it is spreading. we have to figure out what we call flatten the curve of infection so we don't overwhelm our health systems. many presidents get tried by these things. this current president is getting low grades from a lot of people. what do you think your old friend barack obama is thinking? >> again, i will say i know the size ofan hours every night he spent studying that book. i can tell you that every meeting we had he came fully briefed and fully prepared asking probing questions. this is not about left or right. this is not about politics or republican versus democrat. this is about do you have empathy and are you competent?

unfortunately the answers to those two right now are a resounding no. it means more people than should will die and that is heartbreaking. absolutely heartbreaking. >> arne duncan, thank you. former education secretary. managing partner at emmerson collective. he was the school superintendent in chicago for more than seven years. new normal. ordering residents to stay at home. what is that doing to local businesses? small mom and pops across the country. this is velshi on msnbc. n msnbc. and save in more ways than one. for small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less,

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across the country, cities are shutting down with the closing of bars, restaurants and stores as well as broader dries. the economy has already taken a hit with thousands filing for unemployment. in an effort to mitigate the effects, congress is negotiating with the treasury secretary and u.s. administration hoping to find the solution. nbc's josh letterman has the update. josh. >> reporter: ali, senators meeting again this morning in the rush to try to get electi legislation for millions of americans struggling. mitch mcconnell set a deadline for the deal to be reached so congress could work on it over

the weekend setting up a vote on monday. senators left the capitol without having reached a deal. still being several sticking points with republicans and democrats. they are back at it today trying to hammer out those issues. we don't know if they will resolve it in time to keep that deadline and schedule of setting up a vote on monday. we do know they are working through some really key issues. chief among them, cash payments to americans that we have been talking about. the initial proposal from republicans created a situation where if you didn't make a lot of money, someone who is on social security or disability might not have a lot of income you pay taxes on, you would have gotten a small amount. roughly $600. senators wanted to add more money to that part as well as add tens of millions into the uninsurance part of the program. ali. >> josh lederman, thank you. we will follow it.

josh is the political correspondent. with me now are the three people at the top of the fields explaining the inadequacies of the financial system, but critical of the work before and after the 2008 crisis. sheila baehr was instrumental if protecting bank deposits while 370 banks failed. sarah bloom. she focused on consumer protections and worked to protect the people from maryland from the bank failures and scams and foreclosures. and staff writer at the new yorker sheila kulhatkab. thank you for joining us.

sheila, let me start with you. the instinct right now as we hear all of the numbers about the infection and how it goes around is we have one meter to watch. that meter is the stock exchange. particularly the dow. it has become although it should a n't be, it is the proxy and fear that we are all fixating on. as josh said, we are looking for a fix. a fast, expensive fix to get the economy back on track. there are lots of americans saying lots of things are broken. if we can find half a trillion dollars a day, can we do something else? can we do something that will deal with the broken capitalism and inequality and college debt and health care? what is your thought on this? >> well, yeah. i think the priorities have not been in the right place. we are pumping trillions of

dollars in the financial system and some of that is commercial paper to get financing to businesses hit by this. we are not focusing on layoffs and particularly small businesses are primary job creators. the system is set up to pump money in big banks. that's what we're doing now. stock market is not the economy. i don't think that is where we should focus. the stock market will eventually come back. we need to get cash to small businesses to prevent layoffs. that can be done through a 13-3 facility that i think the fed could set up. the wall street journal suggests they do this. t they need to get the money out the door. the haggling in congress. in 2008 and 2009, we did bailouts. i held my nose and agreed to things i didn't like.

i came to the table and argued my position. we had to get the money out the door. congress needs to remember how to compromise to get this program in place. especially small business rel f relief. the cash payments to individuals is a good idea. >> sarah, it is the piece of this we all feel. doesn't matter where you live. streets are empty and restaurants are closed. here in new york, restaurants can deliver or you can pick up. i had phone calls from my neighborhood raunestaurants and hours. these are people who don't have a lot of cash flow. they are trying to keep it going. what can the grown ups in the room, central bank and united states and federal reserve, what kind of things can they do get directly to some of the people who are trying to keep the economy and employees going that doesn't feel like it is going

necessarily through the big banks and through high finance, but getting right to main street? >> right. there needs to be a lot more support. we need to turn on a lot of different spigots here to focus on households and small businesses. households are facing not just unemployment, but facing reduced hours and facing massive cut backs. they are going to because this public health emergency is forcing everybody to stay home. that's as it should be. that is what is necessary in terms of getting us back to health. in order to actually deal in the interim while we are all kwaun attorn quarantined at home and kbecono is flat, people have to pay their bills. bills continue. people have rent to pay. they have the mortgage. they have food to put on the table. utilities. their data. their data lines and phone lines. all of this will cost money.

and they will need direct cash. this is tied intimately to providing something more to small businesses. as sheila said, they need a lot more liquidity. the fed can do some of it, but the fed facility is focused on the large institutions and on the plumbing that undergirds the market. that is fine. that all needs to get done. we need more. we need it to come from the fiscal side. we are going to need direct assistance to small businesses. something in the order of very cheap, maybe free loans of a long duration that will keep businesses liquid. they need to stay liquid so they don't end up having to fire people and then we have a -- a real hard time being able to bounce back. that's what we should also be focused on right now. how long will it take us to bounce back? if we are cutting hours and

shuttering businesses, it will be very hard to turn the corner on this and what could be a short-term downturn could end up being something like a great recession. we really need to get ahead of the layoffs in this way. >> sheila bair, you were on top of this at the fdic. there were so many banks that closed and the way they closed as orderly. closed on friday afternoon after markets closed. your group announced they would close and people could go to the atm to get money. on monday, another bank took them over and you could do your banking on the other end of this thing. there's so much panic and anxiety right now. people telling me they are now taking cash out. keeping cash in their home. they are worried about what this looks like. give me a sense of the health of the financial sector and what people should be worried about. >> yeah, i think so far we had

pockets of that, but overall, a lot of deposits. a lot of people are pulling out of the stock market and money funds and pulling out of assets that are viewed as risky and putting money in sure deposits. i think the liquidity of the banking system is fine. i think the longer-term issue is how this could turn into a terrible recession if not depression. how the losses will flow back. small banks are on the frontline of lending. they could use help in terms of small business borrowers getting liquidity to them. i agree with fiscal stimulus. the treasury should absorb losses on the 13-3 facility. if you wait so long fortre ther treasury to set it up, you could get liquidity. that is what they are doing in

england and in germany. we could do it here as well. >> sarah, what is the best way for people -- the difference in 2008 and 2009 and now is the number of people who completely earn an income in a non traditional way. not working for a company. freelancers or uber drivers or delivery people or service providers. they don't have the normal ability to get loans that a small business can. how do we deal with them? is that just the direct cash payment to them? is there any other way to allow them the money they need to pay their rent and pay their mortgage and pay car loans and student loans? >> right. i think we are going to need to expand the view of how people work today. it can't just be people who are getting hourly pay and have had an unemployment event. what we have to do is we have to

expand our unemployment insurance mechanism. it has to go beyond people who have lost their jobs entirely. we have to expand it to include people whose hours have been cut back and we have to include also people who are 1099 and schedule c kind of contractors that you talked about. the people in the so-called gig economy. we need to use the existing mechanism which i would argue the unemployment insurance mechanism and expand it to include all workers because that is really going to be the only way that we're going to be able to have a full-fledged recovery here. if we only focusing on a small segment of people who are working, we're not going to get really everybody engaged in this in a way that will bring about a real bounce back. >> this is such an important discussion. i'm pleased you joined us. sarah and sheila.

sheila is here with us in the show. we are having technical problems. she will join us in the show. last night, lawmakers could not agree on a bill to rescue the economy from the coronavirus. we will talk about that and more next. l talk about that and more next ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) once-weekly ozempic® is helping many people with type 2 diabetes like james lower their blood sugar. a majority of adults who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. here's your a1c. oh! my a1c is under 7! (announcer) and you may lose weight. adults who took ozempic® lost on average up to 12 pounds. i lost almost 12 pounds! oh! (announcer) for those also with known heart disease,

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there are at least 300 cases of covid-19 in the state of texas and five deaths according to our ongoing nbc news count. joining me ranking member and former chairman of the ways and means committee, congressman brady of texas. thank you for joining me. how are you and your family and what's the latest from your district? >> i'm doing well. we're back home in texas. working with our small businesses, our families, our

manufacturers, to tackle this crisis. certainly there are obstacles in our local health care providers. i'm proud how texas is handling this. certainly from our state and local level they are partnering in a very strong way. look, this is a big challenge and i actually think -- i've been spending an awful lot of time working with the senate and the white house on this third economic package. i think the points that we all agree on, which is look let's first keep people at work, if we can. secondly take care of them if they are laid off or hours are reduced. thirdly make sure there's a job for them to come back to. that's why the focus in this economic package is yes direct help to families. they need it right now. they are in very tough times. let's get that the home. an awful lot of immediate help in financing for small businesses because that's where a lot of my workers work. and then make being sure there are a lot of workers at airlines and hotels and restaurants and

all this. let's make sure those businesses have the financing, the lending to get them through this crisis. at the end of the day, look i feel pretty strongly we came in here with the strongest economy on the planet. good position. huge challenge for us. i do believe we'll be able to help people ride this out and then rebound strongly. i think that's the goal of both parties. >> yeah. congressman, you and i, i enjoyed our conversations, we didn't tend to he agree on much. you're always here for a spirited conversation. you could agree this is a moment where you and your republican colleagues and democrats have to tell their democratic colleagues this is not a moment for ideology, this is a moment to deal with an unprecedented crisis. this is worse than 2008 and 2009. despite the economy is sound fundamentally going into it, it won't be in a month or two. >> it won't be. this will be a big challenge.

i agree. democrats and republicans came together very quickly in very decisively in both the first and second coronavirus aid package. i believe we'll do the same thing on third thing. we may not agree on every element but if you look at the package as a whole, giving direct rebates to families who need it, immediate lending and in some cases forgiveness for small businesses who keep their workers on the payroll and then finance, lend the heck out whatever it needs to keep those businesses afloat over these next weeks or months. i think that element is what both parties are to concussion on right now and i think it's a good thing. >> congressman, there are a number of industries that need bail outs right now. boeing will need one. airlines will need one. casino industry is asking for one. hotels are asking for them. a lot of them. there are also companies that are taking cash right now and buying their stock back while they lay people off or don't

allow them paid leave, even though they are shutting down the stores. do you think that's right? >> so, can you identify a company that aggressively is doing stock buy backs right now? >> well, starbucks is one of them until they came under criticism for doing at any time other day and they say they wouldn't. there's at least three or four more who have said they are going to undertake stock buy backs which companies like to do. i don't know if that's the right thing for them to be doing right now. >> i think that's one of these -- you said it best. let's not focus on ideology. that's one of them. we disagree about that. let's get businesses riding out this big challenge. i'm not in favor of bail outs. i am in favor, though, of helping small businesses keep their workers while we ride this out. i am supportive of lending the heck out of, using the federal reserve and congress' tools to help businesses get the capital, to stay in business because at

the end of the day we can do everything in the world, but if people don't have a job to go back to, they are hurt. and that's who we need be focused on. >> are you in favor of -- i mean, will we have to bail out auto companies, boeing, boeing is the biggest exporter in america. they do want a bailout. president said we're talking about help. what your saying? you say we can give them loans. look the auto industry bail outs were loans, t.a.r.p. were loans. american public ultimately did well out of them but didn't like the idea. >> yeah. i think this is a different dynamic. you know, n knows coronavirus is using crowds of healthy people to attack the elderly and the vulnerable. it's hard. in the past we pulled together in these crises. now we do that by pulling apart, distancing ourselves. it's a hard transition for many people. people are accepting that,

making those change. look, they are not blaming anything but this virus for what we have. but they want to pull together to find solutions. i'm pretty confident at the end of the day i may not like everything that's in this package. i'm sure you won't either. but can we apply in this moment of triage what we need. >> you commented -- look, united, there's a big employer in your state. they are saying if they don't get a bail out they are going to have to lay people off. that's a reality of a lot of companies. what do you say to companies like that? >> yes. so united is very important in our region. continental was headquartered here. we were pretty proud of that airline. what they have talked to me about is give me loans we need. they came in with pretty strong cap position as did southwest. american had challenges in the airline industry. came in a cash position. they are trying to hold on as

much as they can. they are giving me lending. i think they asked for a deferral on many of the excise taxes. whether you're a small business or big business there's not much revenue coming in. everything we can do at the state and federal level to keep dollars from going out especially over these next weeks or months, that's crucial making sure there's jobs for people to come back to. >> congressman, thanks for your time. our thoughts to you, your family, and the members of your district as you struggle with this. congressman kevin brady is the cranking member of the ways and means committee, republican congressman from texas. u.s. air force veteran claims she's been repeatedly denied a coronavirus test from her local va despite experiencing symptoms. she joins us at the top of the hour. th chantix you can keep smoking at first

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