healthier food. >> fantastic. >> a place where food can save us. >> three apples. >> one person at a time. one plate at a time. >> thank you. >> thank you. this is an msnbc special presentation. health care in america. it's a bit like a bad ex. the one who never treated you right but you'll still call in an emergency. even with obamacare, about 30 million americans still don't have health insurance. and many of those who do are struggling to pay for it. did we not do this right? what kind of nation claims to keep its citizens safe with the most powerful military on earth but has no plan for them if they say fall off a horse. steady, girl -- or boy. or you. i'm francesca and i'm not your typical journalist. i've got opinions. and i'm not afraid to share them. this is my journey across

america to ask the nation one simple question -- who are we and what do we want? okay. two questions. neither of which is simple. this is "red, white and who." ? americans say they're more worried about health care today than any other major issue. remember this guy? ten years ago, president obama had a solution. the affordable care act, also known as obamacare, was supposed to help make health insurance more affordable. but have you tried to buy it lately? for some it's still a luxury item. now it's basically on life support. >> we'll appeal every word of obamacare. >> and voters are taking action.

while the partisan debate rages on in washington, i want to understand how the issue of health care is playing out in the lives of everyday americans. so i'm traveling to texas to meet people who can't afford their medical bills. to utah to find out what happens when voters rise up and demand more health insurance. and new york to hear about a plan that would turn the whole system on its head. >> health care coverage for everyone. >> yes. as a human right. not a privilege. >> first up -- i'm in texas. home to barbecue, ted cruz and other things that aren't good for your health like a lack of health insurance. there are more uninsured people here than in any other state in the nation. a whopping 5 million texans don't have health insurance. that's a lot of people.

i'm heading to dayton, an hour north of houston, to visit a family that's been uninsured for generations. this is cody newman. besides being uninsured, he's also a cowboy. yep, they still exist. he raises bulls and runs rodeos. how long have you been here? >> i'm 46, and i've been here all my life. my dad built the place. >> so who is mean and who is nice? >> the bulls, they're mean. >> they look so calm and serene. if you just talk to them nice. >> they're calm back here but once they go out of the chute, they're mean. >> i think you're wrong about them. >> risk-taking is clearly in cody's genes but he's not alone. there are about 30 million americans living on the edge just like him. and i don't mean riding bulls. i mean going without health

insurance. >> what's the most dangerous part about riding a bull, other than everything? >> it's not when you're going to get hurt but how bad you're going to get hurt. >> he recently got into a reck wrangling one of the bulls. >> the bull wouldn't come out. we roped him and he jerked me over backwards. i landed on my head and broke three bones in my wrist. i went straight to the emergency room. >> how much did that bill cost you for that accident? >> as of right now probably about $12,000. >> can i ask you how much you make in a year? >> about $40,000. >> okay. >> that's a pretty good chunk out of my income. >> that's a huge chunk. >> got pay it monthly. a little bit at a time. >> being a cowboy isn't cody's only pre-existing condition. for more than a decade, he was in and out of the e.r. dealing with debilitating pain from

pancreatitis. >> progressing, going to the hospital once, twice a year to every three months. >> what did that do to you financially and to your family? >> i filed bankruptcy. i couldn't keep up with it. >> i'm tapped out. couldn't handle it anymore. >> when he declared bankruptcy, cody had $50,000 of medical debt. still, he chooses to roll the dice and forgo health insurance because paying out of pocket for his insulin costs less per month than the cheapest insurance plan he can buy. >> there's nothing more american than being a cowboy. >> no, it's not. i don't think so. >> would you say that not insuring a cowboy is un-american? >> no, it's just -- i don't know how to answer that. >> the discussions about health care costs in washington can feel hypothetical. but when we talk about the

uninsured, we're talking about real people like cody and his family. after facing financial ruin, cody moved back to the home he grew up in with his parents, mutt and judy. like their son, they've spent most of their lives in the rodeo and uninsured. >> what were your work-arounds for not having health insurance? >> we had lots of home remedies. if you had what we used to call the kroop. >> what would you do? >> vic's vapo rub. my mother would literally eat vic's. she had a sore throat, she'd take it and lick it and eat vic's. >> that's brand loyalty. >> mutt and judy have been relatively healthy most of their lives. but in 2007, judy was diagnosed with a slow-growing form of leukemia, a cancer that attacks blood cells and bone marrow. because she was uninsured, three years went by before she was

able to get treatment. what changed? she turned 65 and qualified for medicare, the government's low-cost health insurance for seniors. now judy manages her leukemia with chemo pills and frequent doctor's visits. >> i can truthfully say when we got on medicare was the best thing that ever happened us to. getting old was the best thing that ever happened to us because judy was stricken with leukemia. they took us because we had medicare, some means of paying them. >> without medicare, would you be dead? >> yes, quick. i couldn't go to the hospital, yeah. >> 60 million americans like judy and mutt rely on medicare. that's probably why it's so expensive. it costs $750 billion in 2018 alone. in the past, republicans have proposed major cuts to the program even though conservative voters like mutt and judy say they don't want anyone touching medicare if it's going to affect them. but what about their son cody.

he's only in his 40s and his medical bills are coming at him faster than a charging bull. which makes me wonder, how do most americans under 65 get health insurance? well more than half get it through their jobs. they're the lucky ones. a lot qualify for medicaid, a government insurance program for the neediest. more on that later. less common, buying insurance on your own like through the obamacare marketplace. ho healthcare.gov or some other form of insurance like through the military. that leaves a good chunk of americans riding life bare back, just one accident or bad diagnosis away from potential medical debt, bankruptcy or worse. these uninsured people often end up in the emergency room because they won't be turned away, even if they can't afford to pay. i want some medical advice on all of this so i'm at a barbecue spot in houston to talk to a

doctor. >> oh, my word. >> and he is not what i expected. >> you have an insurance card. so do i. does that mean that we're made in the shade? we're cool. we can eat this brisket, i can go ride my motorcycle with impunity because we have such great health care nothing can go wrong? >> yes. >> no. >> mark hernandez rode here from austin where he's the chief doctor of a nonprofit that cares for more than 100,000 uninsured patients a year. >> when i think of an e.r., i think, okay, this person is in need of desperate, immediate care. am i right about that? >> you're right in some ways and wrong in others. a lot of people come to the hospital because they don't actually have access to health care anywhere else. the problem is, with people who have chronic illness, it leads them to end up in a state where it's now become an emergency. now if you're poor and without

insurance, a hospital says, we don't get any money back for that. they'll eat some of it. who are they pass it onto? all the patients in that hospital who have insurance. >> so people with insurance are essentially footing the bill for the people who don't have insurance? >> right. >> how would you diagnose our health care system in america? >> the system is not designed, in my opinion, to actually create the outcome that you are coming to the system for, which is, i want to maintain my health. >> what's it designed for? >> to turn money. >> how much money? americans spend $3.6 trillion on health care in 2018. that's $11,000 per person. which is probably why americans are being forced to choose between health care and other basic necessities. like lunch. so what happens when getting care is the difference between life and death? and what does it look like to

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i'm in texas, the most uninsured state in the nation, to talk to people about health care. cody and his family taught me that texans are tough, but there are some things that can't be fixed with vic's vapor rub, or at least shouldn't be. here in houston, even people with insurance are emptying their bank accounts to cover their health care costs. to find out how real that gets, i'm down the road from the la e largest medical complex in the world and one of the best cancer hospitals in the country, m.d. anderson. >> i'm here at south main rv park and the majority of people here are getting treatment at md anderson and other hospitals nearby. they come here from all over the state and the country. this is like a pop-up waiting room.

i'm going to talk to some of the residents and see what they're going through. the campers in this group have uprooted their lives to get the best possible cancer treatment. they have insurance, but their out-of-pocket medical costs are still draining their savings so they stay here because it's way cheaper than a hotel. >> we can't drink alcohol. we can't have sugars so i figured i'd bring a -- you're giving me a face already? what's wrong with kale cucumber and parsley? all right. how often are you all going to and from m.d. anderson? a couple -- you're laughing. >> we live there. >> we live there. >> i mean, sometimes five days a week. sometimes once a week. those days can be one hour or they can be 16 hours. >> right. >> this is larry and his wife

nancy. they met working at a hospital pharmacy and have been married for more than three decades. but since 2018, they've been living in the rv park so nancy can get treatment for blood cancer. >> she was diagnosed in april, and then june 1st, i was diagnosed with prostate cancer. so we've been through this journey together taking care of each other. her cancer is much worse than mine. >> part of my treatment was having a stem cell transplant. i ended up 51 days in the hospital. all these treatments are very, very pricey. and so i want to ask you about insurance. >> affordable care. she's on medicare. >> tell them what the deductible is. >> this year my deductible was $6,000. my max out of pocket was $7,900. and then with cancer, you know, $7900 goes in a heartbeat. >> like their neighbors, terry and bev bryant are texas transplants. terry has already beaten

esophageal cancer once. now that it's back they say if they hadn't sold their home and moved into an rv, they wouldn't be able to pay for the treatment he's getting today. >> what have the bills been like? total, what's the cost? >> i have no idea. i just pay them. i do know that it took all of our resources the first time. >> what do you mean by that? >> a few hundred thousand into it? >> yeah. >> it took all your resources. so savings -- >> savings and 401(k)s and, you know, all of that. most of it is gone. but i'd do it again. he's alive. and we had friends that chose not to come to m.d. and they're all gone. >> and you can't take it with you. that is very true. >> do you think that americans should have to go bankrupt just to get better?

>> absolutely not. >> absolutely not, no. medical services shouldn't be free either. >> oh, no, no. >> and there's a balance. people shouldn't have to go broke, but yet we live in a broken world. >> what are your thoughts on folks who maybe weren't so lucky? >> two of my partners were diagnosed -- all three of us within a couple of months. they died. >> and they're no longer here. yeah. >> did they -- were they not able to afford the care? >> they couldn't afford to come here. >> don't know if they couldn't afford to or chose not to come. it's not just finances because no matter where you're at, the cost of medical is still high. >> i'm hearing so many stories which is that a lot of it is about having someone and/or your own stubbornness to navigate you through this, you know, maze of bureaucracy and bills and trying to advocate for yourself. >> it's also a job. i mean, i retired, but i feel

like i have a job. we've got a $14,000 bill for a stem cell transplant. and i called them up and they said, wait a minute. oh, whoever put your stem cell bill in didn't link your medicare. i hear the keys. he goes, it's gone. but somebody might have just paid it. >> forget about retirement. these people are spending their life savings just for the chance to stay alive. and, remember, they have insurance. in the park's prayer garden i meet up with the resident pastor leon hill to ask how a man of faith makes sense of something so unholy. have you ever prayed for the health care system? >> yes. i believe that if we want to see a change, a difference in it, i believe that you have to pray about some things. >> reporter: pastor hill is uninsured. his wife edna was diagnosed with a serious heart condition in

2018, and he stopped working to take care of her. how long have you been without health insurance? >> i would say probably about a year and a half. yeah. >> do you know if you qualify for medicaid. >> i believe they went off my last year earnings. >> sure. >> and said that i made too much. i'm unemployed. i can't get health insurance, so what am i to do? >> what did you put down that was too much? >> it had to be around about $24,000, $23,000. >> and that's not that much, sir. >> for a year. >> for a year, yeah. >> i asked pastor hill about medicaid because it's health insurance for those who can't afford to buy it. low-income americans, including families with children, pregnant women and the disabled. texas could choose to expand

medicaid so pastor hill and many others would qualify. states can opt to make it available to more people and the federal government covers 90% of the cost. it actually saves states money in the long run but texas lawmakers don't want to pay for more government insurance, even if they only have to pick up 10% of the tab. remember dr. hernandez? he broke it down for me. do you know how many people would have been insured under expanded medicaid in texas? >> if we turned medicaid on today, a million people would immediately get it. more and more republican states are expanding medicaid. >> right. >> and i don't know why they're doing it and why texas hasn't. >> well, one reason might be that texans haven't demanded medicaid expansion from the politicians who represent them. in other red states, voters are pressuring their legislators and it's working. i'm leaving no country for sick

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i'm here in utah, home to unbelievably nice views and unbelievably nice people who in 2018 voted to expand medicaid. but what does that mean exactly? let's recap. we know that medicaid is health care for some of the most vulnerable low-income americans, including families with children, the disabled and pregnant women. under the affordable care act, states can expand medicaid to make it available to even more people. and the federal government would foot most of the bill. seems like a no-brainer, right? but in 17 red states, republican lawmakers said no thanks to more medicaid, including utah. that's until the 2018 midterms when voters went on the offense. in utah and two other red states, citizens collected enough signatures to put medicaid expansion on their ballots. and guess what? it passed in all three. in utah, that means about

150,000 people would newly qualify for medicaid. i'm at the state capitol to meet matt sloniker with the utah health policy project. he's a key organizer who has work forward years to make expansion happen here. >> this is the reddest state in the country if you look at all the elected positions and the makeup of the people and they just voted on a tax increase to help poor people. >> that's dangerous if you're a republican. >> the people's proposition would be in effect now. if it weren't for what the republican legislature did next. >> we passed a ballot initiative to expand medicaid fully, cleanly, pay for it. people's will. how can you argue with that. the legislature didn't like it. i'm paraphrasing a little bit, but the legislature said that's our job. we don't believe in direct democracy. we want to go in there and change this plan. >> let us handle democracy, people. >> yeah. the republican party is not shy about saying this.

they don't believe that government should be involved in providing health care to anyone. >> republican lawmakers ignored the ballot proposition and instead passed their own, more limited version of medicaid expansion. under the republican law, about 60,000 fewer people would qualify for medicaid. and there's a catch. utah still wants the federal government to pay for 90% of its expansion, even though that's only provided to states that expand medicaid fully. so utah needs to ask the trump administration for special permission to get full funding. it's incredible to see this is what happens when citizens take action. that they're struck down and then bludgeoned with bureaucracy that ultimately is going to hurt their cause. i'm meeting up with matt's colleagues courtney and stacey

to understand the politics at play when lawmakers defy the will of the voters who elected them in the first place. you guys must be ecstatic about passing medicaid expansion. >> we were. we were really ecstatic for like, what was it, maybe three hours? like i -- well, i mean -- well it was a few days before we started hearing talk about some things happening within the legislature. >> rumors of small changes at first, and then suddenly, it was talking about completely repealing it. we had a rally against repeal, begging them not to do what they did. >> this is from people who came to the rally? >> sat and filled them out there. >> medicaid saved us when my dad was out of work. please hups be healthy by expanding medicaid, exclamation mark. if that doesn't pull on your heartstrings. i write this as a medicaid recipient and registered

republican. this very act is the very reason all you need to be voted out. this is the people's will and you should not be able to change it. was the ballot measure sort of a revolt from utahans against their own legislators, basically tired of them not acting on medicaid expansion? >> say it was a reaction. >> yeah, i mean, it was done not because they wanted to like spite the legislature. it was done because utahans want this. utahans need this. i mean, people are dying because we don't have this. >> do you think that health care should be a right in america? >> i think people hear in that phrase what they want to. we believe in access and like actual access for everybody. being able to go to the doctor and get the care you need. >> having access to health care is very different than having health care. the way i think of it is, i have access to ryan gosling, but i'm

never getting past security to get to him. >> we're trying to tear down security. >> so what do republican lawmakers here have to say about why they denied an estimated 60,000 people the chance to get medicaid when it's what the v e voters wanted? i'm going back to the capitol to ask a state rep just that. why would you be against medicaid expansion? and later, i'm talking to the man behind the plan to give insurance to every single american. >> guaranteeing health care to every man, woman and child is the right thing to do. gesundheit. [sneezes] i see something else... a star... with three points. you're in a... mercedes. yeah, we wish. wish granted. with four models starting under 37 thousand, there could be a mercedes-benz in your very near future at the spring event. lease the a 220 sedan for just $349 a month

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here in utah, voters were crystal clear. they went to the polls and passed proposition 3 to expand medicaid. but state representatives said, nope, and enacted their own, more limited law that would expand medicaid to about 60,000 fewer people. so what do state politicians have to say about what they did? norm thurston is a health economist and a republican state rep. and he opposed full medicaid expansion. why would you be against full medicaid expansion? >> it moves too many people out of a market-based system into a government system. let me tell you about that government program. we have provider shortages. not everybody on that program can see the doctors they need to see. we also have problems with funding. every year we're up here saying do we have enough money to pay for that. sometimes we have to cut benefits.

>> your citizens passed proposition 3. 53% or more of your district specifically. >> yes. >> yet you don't support that. subverting the will of the people, some would call that anti-democratic. >> i don't like that term. >> would you call it something else? >> here's the issue. we're doing a slow build. we're going to find the most vulnerable populations, people who needed the benefits the most and saying, can we afford that. not only can we afford that today but can we guarantee that we'd be able to afford that forever. when you start putting people on medicaid, this has to be a long-term commitment. >> under obamacare, if you expand medicaid, you get 90% of those costs paid for by the federal government. >> uh-huh. >> utah only has to pay 10% and yet legislators still don't want that. >> people say that's a very small number. 10% is a tiny amount of money until you look at what that does for our budgets. it's 10% added to on an already strained budget. >> even though the people voted for this ballot measure, they want medicaid expansion, they don't really know what they're

talking about? >> no, they understand the concept. what gets lost are these really complicated details which are how do you structure the program? how do you pay for it? there's a lot of stuff in there. >> isn't that your job if they say we want to do this -- >> it's our job to figure it out. >> isn't it your job to say, great, we'll figure out how to pay for this because we live in a democracy and we're doing it. >> i'm supporting things that if it were up to me, i would not support but i'm trying to do my best to implement the will of the voters in my district and get something going. >> get something going or stop it in its tracks? either way, representative thurston is a diehard free marketer who isn't inclined to think that more government insurance is the answer to our health care problems. and the republican party tends to agree. but what do utahans who actually want medicaid think about how it all went down? i'm making a house call to ask a voter who said yes to medicaid expansion. this is chris neilsen. >> hello.

>> luckily, i caught him on a good day, but there have been plenty of bad ones. >> oh, my gosh! oh! >> here's chris in an emergency room back in 2012 passing his very first kidney stone. >> did they say they could give me more morphine. >> it hasn't kicked in yet. >> seven years later, chris is still dealing with kidney stones and hasn't had consistent health insurance to get to the bottom of his chronic issue. right now, chris is uninsured. he lost his insurance when he lost his job for missing too many work days because he was busy passing stones. >> so how many kidney stones have you actually passed? >> it's probably been about a dozen. >> oh, my gosh. >> but i've only caught a couple of them. so i've filtered -- i've filtered -- >> you've filtered your pee? >> yeah. >> you want to see them? >> i have them. >> you got to keep them? >> yeah.

>> there you go. >> well, hey, little fellas. >> one of them is huge. chris can't anticipate when he's going to be feeling okay, like today, or feeling like this. >> gosh! oh! >> he's spending a lot of time just trying to figure out whether he qualifies for medicaid under the republicans' limited expansion. and he has a message for the state lawmakers who haven't made it easy for him to get coverage. >> have some heart. people do benefit from this. and if you think that they don't deserve health care, like there's something missing here. >> so you're saying they need a ct scan of their heart? >> they should get a ct scan of their heart. this is a moral issue. >> i'm not going to lie. i left utah feeling pretty bummed. not just about our health care system, but democracy. then a few months later, something unexpected happened. the trump administration told utah it's not paying for 90% of

its limited expansion unless the state goes all in and expands fully, which is what voters wanted in the first place. that means utahans will eventually get full expansion because it's part of the fallback plan the state built into its law. i'm calling courtney from utah health policy project to get the lowdown. >> they have to fully expand eventually. so we're closer. we're still encouraging our legislature and the governor to expand now and not wait any longer and pay more than we have to. >> where does all this leave utah, and what you guys are paying? >> utah right now is continuing to pay three times as much to cover less people. and the department of health reported that amount to be about $2.5 million extra per month. we are paying millions extra to not give people health care. we really are doing that in utah. >> like an early christmas present on december 23rd, the federal government approved full

medicaid expansion in utah. but with prohibitive work requirements. now i'm going to a state where activists are fighting for more than medicaid. they want health care as a human right. so what are you working on?

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i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ after texas and utah, i've decided to take refuge in a blue state. here in new york, 1 in 3 people is on medicaid and obamacare is booming with enrollment at an all-time high which means the uninsured rate is at its lowest level ever. less than 5%. so why in a city that never sleeps are many up at night worried about their health care? because about a million people in the state are still without insurance and even some who have it say it's not enough.

i'm heading to the northern tip of manhattan where new yorkers are taking to the streets because they're sick of the current health care system. these people want to pass the new york health act. it would guarantee health care for all new yorkers by replacing private insurance in the state with a single public program. the people handing out flyers today are doctors -- >> no more out of network because everybody is -- >> everyone is your network. >> exactly. >> medical students -- >> i don't think the ability to survive or to thrive should be determined by how much money you have in your wallet. >> small business owners -- >> our staff that we've trained and gotten up to speed will sometimes leave because they got a better job with benefits. >> even young new yorkers. can you read me your sign? >> i support the new york health act because so many people are hurt or sick but cannot get better because they don't have insurance. >> under the new york health act, nobody would be uninsured.

all 20 million people in the state would get the same health coverage. and it would be funded in part by a progressive income tax meaning the wealthy pay more. a lot of the demonstrators here actually have health insurance. like this manhattan mother sandra stein whose child is battling a serious disease. >> i believe deeply in reasonable health care as a right. not something reserved for a handful of people who can pay their way out of a broken system. >> eight years ago, sandra and her husband woke up to their almost 3-year-old son having a seizure. he lost the ability to walk and talk and has required around the clock care ever since. >> he had an autoimmune encephalitis. his bad produced an antibody that attacked his brain. this was completely unpredictable. while my son was in the hospital, i was 100% focused on his survival and nothing else. once we got home, it was basically my full-time job to

try to figure out this pile of bills and the collections threats. >> and this was all with insurance. >> all with insurance. and with relatively speaking, very good insurance. look, we lived in acute inpatient rehab facility during the course of this for ten months, right? we were with people who had been in car accidents, who were victims of gun violence, who had a tree branch fall on them randomly. anything could happen to any one of us at any time. and we should organize our health care system as if that were the case. >> instead of, not going to happen to me. >> instead of assuming that just bad things happen. sometimes it's very random and rare and i'm really sorry it happened to you and do a gofundme campaign to get all the things you need. gofundme is not health care. >> sandra's got a point. one-third of gofundme donations are for health care-related

costs. >> universal health care. >> and that doesn't sit well with new york's longest serving lawmaker. >> hi there. universal health care for new york. find out about it. >> state assembly man richard gottfried wrote the new york health act which isn't exactly new. he first proposed it 28 years ago in 1992. >> assemblyman, you've been working on this issue so long that your face is on the flyer. >> yes. >> state senator gustavo rivera is the bill's co-sponsor. >> you can pick a random person in this corner and they'll tell you a horror story about the current health care system in the state of new york and the country. >> we did that. >> there you go. >> if we fight it in public, we win because people know how the system is broken and we're offering a solution to that. >> i have tons of questions for you. >> the new york health act has passed in the state assembly five times. but never in the republican-controlled state senate. now, for the first time in a decade, democrats have the

majority in both houses. so the bill has a real shot at passing. i've been traveling around the country, and i've seen worse states than yours. new york looks pretty good from the outside. why do you need more? >> 95% of new yorkers have some kind of health coverage. but the problem is that millions and millions of new yorkers every year have somebody in the household who goes without needed care because they can't afford it. >> a system that works like that is broken. we're trying to completely erase that. start fresh instead of having just smaller pools of people that are insured. we have the 20 million people sharing costs among everybody. it lowers costs. >> but socialism. >> it's a scary word. medicare, medicaid. all of these things were denounced as socialism. the government would not be running the health care. you'd pick your health care providers. what the new york health program would do is pay the bill.

>> in the conversation that you all are having here in new york, it's like a microcosm of the conversation we're having nationally. if it can happen here in new york, can it happen anywhere? >> it certainly can. most social progress legislatively in this country starts at the state level and eventually goes national. minimum wage, child labor laws. if we do this here, when we do this here, we get it right here, then we provide a model for the rest of the country. we can actually define the way that this battle is fought across the nation. >> unless the nation beats new york to it. i'm going to meet a brooklyn native who wants americans to take their health off the market for good. will the private health insurance industry feel the "bern"? can my side be firm?

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[ whines ] can your internet do that? xfinity xfi can because it's... ...simple, easy, awesome. [ barking ] here in new york city, the people's revolution doesn't stop at health care for all new yorkers. >> people are coming in. they're dying because they don't

have coverage. >> they want to go even bigger. health care for all americans. and they believe the way to get it is through a plan called medicare for all. what is medicare for all? there's no exact definition because it doesn't exist yet but the basic idea of the two proposals in congress is that the government runs one national health care program and everybody is on it. private insurance companies are pretty much put out of business and doctors, hospitals and pharmacists bill uncle sam. co-pays, premiums and deductibles would mostly disappear, but nothing in life is free. the government needs money to pay for all that care which means side effects could include a payroll tax, progressive income tax, tax on the wealthy, and imposing fees on financial institutions and the government may be able to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies and i'm hoping they'll

have fewer commercials that sound like this. to learn more about what medicare for all could look like in america, i'm grabbing a bagel with a new york native who put it on the map. >> senator, hi. >> senator and democratic presidential candidate bernie sanders. >> medicare for all. there are 329 million americans, right? there's a lot of us. let's say it passes. what does it look like? >> you'll get a new card. >> okay. >> probably say medicare for all. probably have your name, maybe your address on it. >> will it have your face on it? >> and then any doctor you want. give the doctor your card. they process it. there is no medical bill. that's about it. pretty simple. >> by eliminating the private health insurance industry is big. and congressional budget office said it would have a huge impact on the economy. now they don't say it's negative or positive, but does that concern you at all? >> no, what concerns me is that half a million people go

bankrupt a year that a lot of the folks i expect that you talked to are living a great anxiety over whether or not they can afford health care. it's always easy to say oh, my god, change is coming. every change has a negative to it. but medicare for all guaranteeing health care to every man, woman and child as a right as it exists in every other major country on earth is positive and is the right thing to do. >> how much does medicare for all cost? how many iraq wars? >> that's a great question. >> like 1 1/2? >> that's a hard apples to orange to make. here's the more important point. people say medicare for all is expensive. but if we maintain the status quo, you don't bring in the cost efficiencies that medicare for all will. there are estimates out there that we'll be spending $50 trillion over the next ten years for health care. so we already are spending far more than any other country per person on health care. >> i know that taxes will go up. can we just do a very mini role

play where i am, let's say the heiress of a very powerful, famous person who likes to golf and tweet a lot. >> are you? >> no. just for the sake of this. >> oh, just for the sake of argument. >> why should i pay more in taxes. let's say more than half of my income in taxes? >> i think it's time that we toild the wealthy in this country that they're not a world unto their own. three people own more wealth than the bottom half of american society. i say that's an outrage. i say to that heiress, you enjoy the benefits of the united states of america. you're a billionaire, you'll pay more in taxes. >> what about people who have retirement funds invested in the private health insurance industry. what happens to them? >> you know, people make investments wherever they want to. they have an option to put their investments in health care or some place else. so people are free to invest their money and make money and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. but i think as we move toward a medicare for all single payer, i

assume many of those will be changing their investment policies. >> let's say that i like my health insurance. i like the logo. i like the billing system. i like that they play careless whisper when i'm on hold with them. >> i've got bad news for you. despite the fact you love your insurance company and you love arguing with them, you'll have to find somebody else to argue with. >> okay. >> because you'll get all the coverage that you need. >> that idea that snomehow it's going okay. >> nobody loves their insurance companies. they love their doctors and maybe the care you got in the hospital. you'll have more choice on the medicare for all because everybody is in it together. you go to any doctor you want. >> we reached out to five of the largest insurance companies. they either reject ourd request -- >> they did? >> i know. >> shocked. >> with the bagel. >> i offered them a bagel and a pickle on the side. they rejected my request or they just didn't respond. why do you think they wouldn't give me an interview?

is it me? >> i didn't want to have to tell you this, but you've asked the question bluntly, rirkts aght, u wanted -- it is your personality. >> i've been "berned," really. i think that's the only way to say it. >> these guys have unlimited amounts of money. they don't want to talk to you. what they will do is take hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and buy politicians and put ads on television telling the american people what a great job they're doing. spending all their money on research and working on alzheimer's and cancer. that's what you do when you have unlimited amounts of money. you don't have to answer hard questions. >> has anything happened in your personal life that's made you so passionate about health care? >> i grew up in a family that did not have a lot of money, period. so a lot of my political views are shaped by the fact that my family lived paycheck to paycheck. health care was one issue. there are many other issues. >> your mother and father died when they were fairly young, when you were fairly young. would that be fire say that has

something to do with what drives you now? >> i think it's one of many factors, yes. >> you don't like to make it personal. >> no, i don't. it's not about me. it's about so many other people who are hurting. some cases dying because they cannot afford the health care which should be a basic american right. it's about everybody in this country having a right to go to a doctor when they need to. >> no matter what you think of medicare for all, it's clear to me that something's got to give. from cody and his medical bills to the rv campers fighting cancer. to sandra and her son. it's not just that health care in america is really complicated or too expensive. it's not working for us because it's profiting off our sickness. and whether you live or die could depend on which state you happen to be born into and whether or not legislators in your state are even listening to voters. change is definitely coming, but everything from the smallest fix to a complete overhaul of the system isn't going to happen without a fight. and so it's easy to get cynical.

but it's important to remember who politicians ultimately work for. us. and i'm natalie morales. and this is "dateline." i'm craig melvin. >> i'm natalie morales. >> and this is "dateline." >> denita was a light in this dark world. that's what she was about. she was just a cup of love. i'm like, "who saw this coming?" >> a beautiful young student gunned down. >> things like that just didn't happen there. >> why? who? who would want to do this? >> i thought i had my man. >> her boyfriend was a police officer. >> if anyone knew how to do this and get away with it, wouldn't it be him? >> then someone told police what he saw. >> he told me he saw a female that was about 5'10".

she pulls off and takes off out of the complex. >> what did she know? >> she said, "i'm in fear of my life." the story starts to unravel. >> a secret tape. >> why are you whispering? >> you know why. because somebody's listening. >> a secret lover. >> he wanted her to come back to him. and she didn't. >> and a secret revealed. >> as we're getting ready to finish up the interview, someone hands me a note. >> who killed denita? >> you've told me some things you'd only admit to your priest, and you can't tell me this last little piece of the puzzle. why? ♪ >> reporter: the darkroom is where a photographer's vision comes to life, allowing others to see the world through their eyes. and with these shots, we can learn a little about the world this young photographer saw. and her sense of exactly when to

snap the shutter. to capture the world in front of her. it's an impressive portfolio belonging to a young woman named denita smith. she began looking through a lens in childhood, and never stopped, as her mother sharon remembers. >> she's always loved the camera. the camera was her friend. the camera was her way of expressing herself. >> reporter: denita was beginning to turn all that talent into a successful trade working as photojournalist on the student newspaper at north carolina central university in durham. >> she would see things that probably the average person wouldn't see. >> reporter: but there was something denita didn't see coming. a blind spot in her seemingly perfect life. something she never anticipated. never imagined. but maybe no one could.

it was january 4th, 2007. a crisp carolina morning. denita had a busy day ahead as classes were about to resume after christmas break. >> denita loved school. and she was planning to go back and get her doctorate and get married and have a family. >> and somewhere along the line, work in this business? >> exactly. >> reporter: in fact, denita had won a "new york times" fellowship. her close friend and classmate edythe kearns. >> denita just always knew what she wanted. she always had a vision and a goal. and she would make a plan and stick to it and take it step by step until she met that goal. >> reporter: denita lived in the campus crossings apartments near the university. around 8:00 a.m., a 911 call came in from another student at

the same complex. >> durham 911, where is your emergency? >> i think this girl just fell down the stairs. she's at the bottom of the stairs, head busted up and blood everywhere. >> okay, is she responding to you at all? >> she's not even moving. do you want me to get her i.d. out of her pocket? >> if you can. >> her name is denita monique smith. >> okay. >> denita monique smith. denita! she ain't moving man. >> reporter: denita seemed to have perhaps lost her balance and fallen down the stairs. police and paramedics rushed to the complex. the college was quickly notified, as was denita's family. >> "miss smith, denita fell. she's unconscious, but they're trying to revive her." he said, "are you coming to durham?" and i'm still trying to wrap my head around, you fell, unconscious, revive. i said, yes, i'm coming. >> reporter: sharon and her two other children lived in charlotte, almost a three-hour drive from durham. >> on my way there i did call jermeir. >> reporter: that was jermeir stroud, denita's fiance, a police officer who worked in

greensboro, much closer to durham. >> and i said, "jermeir, i need you to get to durham now. denita has fell. she's unconscious. they're trying to revive her." so he said, okay. because i knew from greensboro to durham, he would be there before i would. >> could you tell whether he had any idea of this? >> he didn't let on like he was aware. >> reporter: word spread fast that something had happened at the apartment complex. edythe called to check on denita. >> and she wasn't answering. which was, you know, after i call your phone several times as a best friend, you know, somebody's going to call you back. so i was like, that's strange. so my instinct just said call jermeir really quick just to touch bases with him. >> reporter: by now jermeir stroud had left work and was racing to durham. >> i spoke to jermeir. and i'm like, "have you made contact with her?" but i felt like i didn't get a definite answer. it seemed like there was a little bit of confusion. >> what do you mean? >> like when i said, "did you

speak with her," and he didn't really give me a yes or a no. >> he just sound a little rushed like, "edythe, you know, just sit tight. stay calm. i'm sure, you know, we'll get to her." >> reporter: also rushing to get to denita was her mother, sharon smith, who was driving to durham from charlotte. >> you're thinking this is an accident. >> uh-huh. >> but she's going to be okay? >> uh-huh. i thought she was at the hospital. >> reporter: durham police arrived and taped off the scene. >> we found denita at the bottom of the steps, and we were basically -- there was a pretty large police presence at the time. >> reporter: detective shawn pate wasn't sure exactly what he was dealing with, but it was beginning to look a lot more serious than just an accident on the stairs. >> we weren't able to determine what the injuries were. we saw there was blood coming from her head. she had her purse, she had water bottle, lipstick, keys, that kind of thing. all coming down the staircase.

and first thing i'm wondering is, was there a struggle? >> was her wallet there? >> the wallet was there. >> and money in it? >> there must have been because at first we didn't think it was a robbery. >> reporter: edythe, who knew none of this, now rushed to denita's building, where she hoped to find her close friend but instead was greeted by several of the university's professors. >> i was like, "what are you all doing here?" and they were like, "you know, unfortunately, she's not alive." everything in me, you know, just went into shock, of course. i kept saying, you know, i want to see her. i was like, are you sure? maybe it's mistaken identity. i'm like, she's not dead, this can't be. >> reporter: denita monique smith was just 25 years old and engaged to be married. now her fiancé, jermeir stroud, who had also arrived on scene, was given the awful news. how'd jermeir look? >> like a blank expression.

he was calm. and he was like "you know, it's going to be okay." he was like, "calm down." i was like, "my heart is breaking right now." i'm like, "and it's breaking for you, too." because i'm like, this is your future wife. i'm like, who saw this coming? >> reporter: but edythe didn't know the worst of it. her close friend denita hadn't died in a tragic accident. police discovered denita had been murdered, shot at almost point-blank range. >> it's clearly intentional. >> reporter: and shot in the back of the head. >> dead center. >> reporter: this was an execution. >> exactly. >> reporter: meanwhile, denita's mother sharon had arrived from charlotte, still unaware of what had happened. >> where's my baby? and is she all right? >> reporter: now police had to break the horrible news about her oldest daughter. >> and so that's when they explained that denita was found and she had been shot.

and she was dead. and at that point my life just changed completely. >> reporter: nothing prepares you for that, does it? >> uh-uh. because i'm wondering who, why, who would want to do this? why would they want to do this? it just doesn't make sense. coming up -- police hear from a witness who saw something odd and suspicious. >> she says, let me call the police and then pulls off and takes off out of the complex. >> when "dateline" continues. ♪ rob! bill. [ chuckles ] follow me. make your yard the envy of the block this spring at lowe's.

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one shot, a clean hit from behind. the killer was apparently lying in wait on the apartment's second floor landing as denita walked down the stairs from her third floor unit, said durham police detective shawn pate. >> there were four apartments on that landing. i think that someone was there pretending they were knocking on the door or fumbling for keys. >> reporter: so denita probably would have had to walk right past the shooter? >> probably, good morning, how are you, then turn and go down the steps. >> reporter: bang. >> and that's it. >> reporter: denita murdered. executed in broad daylight. it made no sense. her bff edythe says denita simply didn't have any enemies. >> denita was a light in this dark world. she had a beautiful spirit. she was loving. she was kind. she was supportive. she embodied everything that was positive and about supporting people. >> reporter: there was no one

who didn't like her? >> right. she was well respected and well loved. >> reporter: especially by her fiancé, jermeir stroud, who appeared devastated by denita's death. >> jermeir didn't say anything. jermeir cried. we all cried. he didn't really say a whole lot. >> reporter: jermeir and denita had met back in college and became the "it" couple on campus. >> they had been dating for a few years. and you know, before i even met him, denita spoke very highly of him. >> reporter: what'd she say? >> like he's a gentleman, he's intelligent. he's active, involved, well-rounded, he's kind, he respects me. he protects me. he's loving. >> reporter: the perfect guy? >> the perfect guy. the perfect guy. >> reporter: he was apparently even perfect enough for denita's cautious mother, sharon smith, who came to trust that jermeir was the right guy for her precious daughter.

>> i knew what he would be getting, but i didn't know what she would be getting. so i tried to find every reason to not like him. >> reporter: how'd you do? >> i failed, because he was very polite. he was very respectful. i would always tell jermeir, "you take care of my baby. this is precious cargo." and he promised me that he would, that he wouldn't let anything hurt her. i said, okay. >> reporter: now police wanted to talk to jermeir stroud. >> greensboro police have confirmed smith was engaged to officer jermeir stroud. stroud has been an officer with the greensboro police department for four years. >> reporter: the mere fact that he was her fiancé immediately made stroud a person of interest. jermeir insisted he knew nothing about who killed denita. >> jermeir was at home asleep because he had just worked a night shift the day before. >> reporter: so he was off duty? >> he was off duty.

it's not unbelievable. it just makes it harder to rule him out. >> reporter: so there's no proof he was anywhere. >> except for the fact that his phone was at his house on his nightstand plugged in. >> reporter: but by all accounts, jermeir stroud loved denita dearly. it didn't make sense that he would kill the woman to whom he had just proposed. they were planning a big wedding. now after speaking with detectives, jermeir headed back home to greensboro, his life changed forever. and then, two hours after the murder, detectives got a lead. >> durham 911, where is your emergency? >> at campus crossings apartments. >> reporter: they discovered a second 911 call that had come in around the time denita was killed. >> i'm hearing gunshots coming from somewhere around here. >> reporter: the caller was the apartment's maintenance supervisor, who'd been working near denita's unit.

>> when he heard the shot, he'd looked up in that direction and he told me he saw a female that was about 5'10", hair in a ponytail, and had some kind of emblems on her clothing. >> the young lady that stays over here, she heard it too and she's like upset and shaking and stuff like that. >> she was covering her face and she went and got into her truck and started driving away. >> reporter: this woman looked frightened or -- >> he said like she was distraught. she had her hands over her face and moving quickly. >> reporter: like they're horrified by what they've seen. >> correct. >> reporter: so more witness than perpetrator maybe. >> that's exactly what he thought. >> reporter: then, according to the maintenance man, the woman got into a burgundy colored ford explorer which he then followed in his truck. >> he pulls up beside her, so they're kind of looking directly at each other, eyeball to eyeball, and she still has her hands over her face.

and he says, "ma'am, did you hear a shot or something?" and she shakes her head up and down yes. and he says, "where'd it come from?" and she points her head in one direction and he says, "why are you nervous?" and she's like, "you heard the shot." and he says, let me call the police. and then she pulls off and takes off out the complex. >> reporter: what do you make of that? >> that's kind of like make the hair on the back of our neck stand up. >> reporter: so now police called jermeir stroud, who was on his way back home to greensboro, and asked one simple question. >> do you know anyone that drives a burgundy ford suv?" and he said, "oh, my god. i'm turning around now." coming up -- a secret affair. >> they start having a relationship that actually started kind of like friendly but then turned sexual. >> reporter: what, if anything, did it have to do with denita's murder? when "dateline" continues. inues.

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craig melvin here broadcasting from home. i recently came in contact with someone who tested positive for covid-19 so i'm here. but we're going to get through this. in fact, the reality is this is the new reality for lots of folks all over this country. ove. just a few hours after his fiancee's murder, jermeir stroud made the biggest u-turn of his life. he was headed home to greensboro to mourn the loss of denita smith when detectives called him about a break in the case. a woman driving a burgundy suv had been spotted at the crime scene.

did jermeir know her? yes, he said, he did. starting with her name. shannon crawley. and one more thing. like jermeir, she also worked in law enforcement. >> he met shannon back in 2000 when he was in the police academy. shannon was a 911 communicator, and she was one of the people that was in the training session. >> reporter: shannon was 21 then. tall, striking, and single, raising two kids. and this is her family. brother keith junior and her parents anne and keith crawley. >> she was determined to give her kids a good life and a nice home. and a good education. very caring and loving mother. >> and if you ask her, she'd say, i'm just a mom. and that's how she put it, i'm just a mom. >> reporter: now at the durham police department, detectives wanted to know more about shannon's relationship with jermeir stroud, so they interviewed jermeir, who was

cooperative, but guarded. >> he said, yeah, she caught my eye. i mean, she's 5'10", long pretty hair, thin. and we spoke for a short time. that was in 2000. around 2004, they bumped in again through work and he asked her for her number. >> reporter: and at this point he's involved with denita? >> involved with denita. and he actually said that he told shannon in 2000 that he was involved with denita. well, in 2004 they start having a relationship that actually started kind of like friendly but then turned sexual toward the end of 2004. >> reporter: and shannon drives a burgundy suv. >> correct. >> reporter: first detectives had a murder. now, a love triangle. detective pate pressed jermeir for more details about the two women in his life. >> i said, well, have they ever met? and he said, no, they've never met, "but i used to have a

picture of denita in my house on my television, and when shannon would help me move in, she saw the picture." >> reporter: shannon knew about denita? >> shannon knew about denita, but denita had no clue. and everyone i spoke to about denita said if she even suspected, she would have been out of that relationship. she had too much dignity for that. >> reporter: this was an affair jermeir was hiding? >> correct. >> reporter: remember, jermeir lived in greensboro near shannon, but 50 miles away from denita, the woman jermeir was officially involved with at the time. it was a tale of two cities and two women. jermeir and denita were dating, though not yet engaged. and he was also seeing shannon, and that seemed more serious than just a fling. >> reporter: did jermeir disclose to you that he had gotten shannon pregnant? >> he did. >> reporter: and that she had an abortion? >> correct. >> reporter: shannon's mother ann says her daughter had the

abortion because her pregnancy wasn't viable. but she claims that when jermeir found out -- >> he was very upset. he had contacted the doctor to find out if what she said was true about the pregnancy being viable. and the doctor refused to talk to him, and that made him angry. >> reporter: jermeir wanted to keep the baby and -- >> yeah, yeah. >> reporter: -- and raise the baby with shannon? >> with shannon, yeah. >> reporter: doesn't sound to me like their relationship was over. sounds to me like it was going pretty well. >> no. it was over. in fact, he had said to her that if you don't want the baby, you know, i'll take the baby. >> reporter: shannon went through with the abortion. but by this time, jermeir told detectives his relationship with shannon had taken a big turn. >> there was no more sleeping together. going shopping together, that kind of thing. it was more just a voice on the phone. or see you in passing at work. >> reporter: so basically, they broke it off. >> they did. >> reporter: a year before denita was killed? >> a year. >> reporter: now after the

murder, word of jermeir's two-timing spread quickly. denita's mother, sharon. >> i'm angry. i'm mad. because it never should have happened. you were in a serious relationship. you know, why you felt you had to step out, don't understand. you don't hurt the ones you love. >> reporter: the divorce rate in this country would suggest that we hurt the ones we love all the time. >> that's true. but it's kind of bad when you going into the marriage being foul. not saying that it's okay once you're in it. but you would just like to think, you know, you're starting things off right. >> reporter: edythe kearns was barely beginning to process the loss of her close friend and now had to cope with something else she had never imagined. >> i was just sad. and i was hurt. and i was in shock. just disbelief. because i had nothing bad to say about him.

>> reporter: this wasn't jermeir? >> yes, i mean, that's exactly more or less how i felt. it was just like a nightmare, like this wasn't reality. >> reporter: denita had trusted jermeir. the men investigating her death did not. now the man who'd once made denita so happy was in the cross-hairs of a murder investigation that was quickly ramping up. and though jermeir stroud seemed genuinely devastated by denita's death, openly crying throughout his interview with detectives, he wasn't getting much sympathy. >> when i first spoke with him, i thought i had my man. >> reporter: jermeir? >> jermeir. coming up -- what does shannon know? and what is she hiding? >> as we're leaving, getting ready to finish up the interview with her, someone hands me a note. >> "when "dateline" continues. d. aleve is proven stronger and longer on pain than tylenol.

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activated the national guard in three states. new york, california and washington state. trump says large quantities of masks, respirators and face shields will arrive in those states within days. a $2 trillion stimulus bill to address the coronavirus failed in the senate. republicans needed 60 votes to move it forward. democrats say they're dissatisfied with worker protections among other things. now back to "dateline." whoever killed denita smith left very little evidence behind. no fingerprints. no dna. no murder weapon. but during the autopsy, the medical examiner did find one thing, the bullet that killed denita. police now hoped that mangled slug might provide a lead on who pulled the trigger. >> what kind of gun killed denita smith?

>> all we could say is that the bullet itself was in the family of -- it had enough weight to be a .38-caliber round. >> reporter: by now denita's death was big news across durham. >> durham investigators say the shooting was not a random act. >> reporter: assistant district attorney david saacks was keeping a close eye on this now high-profile case. one that he might actually prosecute if a killer was ever caught. >> it was so obvious that it was not a robbery. and so if she was targeted for some reason, there was a very, very, very limited number of people who would target denita for something like this. and jermeir certainly could have been one of them. >> reporter: jermeir stroud, denita smith's fiance. on the day of the murder, stroud had revealed to police his romance with shannon crawley, the woman who owned an suv similar in model and color to the one seen leaving the crime scene with a distraught woman behind the wheel.

>> so, if the maintenance guy doesn't see the burgundy suv, then you never ask jermeir about the burgundy suv. >> exactly. i've -- wouldn't have went to greensboro looking for a suspect when durham has plenty of people here. >> reporter: so the day after the murder, detective pate headed westbound on interstate 40, anxious to speak with shannon crawley, the other woman in jermeir stroud's life. by now, shannon's parents, her father keith and her mother anne, were shocked to hear their daughter was about to be interviewed by police. she was a responsible single mom who lived quietly, raising her children. >> being a young mother, you know, she worked six months straight, 12-hour shifts, to buy a house at 27 years old. that's quite an accomplishment for -- for a single mother. >> it sounds undeniable that all of you were really proud of her. >> oh, yes. >> yeah. >> and thought her life was certainly headed in the right direction. >> absolutely. >> yes. >> reporter: shannon worked in

greensboro as a 911 operator at the emergency call center where she was often in close contact with law enforcement and was by all accounts a model employee. >> her supervisors really liked her. she was dependable. she came to work. she did what she was supposed to do, did it in a professional manner. no complaints really. >> reporter: detective shawn pate also found shannon to be cordial and cooperative as they settled in to discuss where shannon was on the day denita died. >> pretty calm, easygoing, kind of like us sitting here. i'd ask a question. she would give me an answer. >> what'd you ask her? >> first i asked her about jermeir, whatever. and she admitted that she knew him and about the relationship that they had. >> reporter: shannon wasn't shy about corroborating what jermeir had already admitted. they met through work. it got physical. she got pregnant. she had an abortion. and the romantic part of their

relationship ended a year before denita's murder. >> they both agreed that it ended in january of 2006. the relationship was over. they both gave the same date, the same incident and reason that it ended. >> reporter: shannon said she didn't think jermeir was capable of murder and insisted she didn't even know denita smith. then detective pate zeroed in on the last time shannon was in durham, the city where denita was murdered. >> she says she's never been to durham. i ask her about owning a gun. and she tells me that "i've never owned a gun. i can't stand guns. i'm scared of them." i said okay, i can understand that. a lot of people feel that way. >> reporter: and as for where she was on that chilly january morning? >> she told me she was at a doctor's appointment with one of her children. that was easy to check out. her supervisor was on scene. and she did tell her supervisor that she was taking her child to the doctor. >> reporter: shannon's story

seemed to add up. maybe she wasn't the distraught woman the eyewitness saw leaving the scene of denita's murder, 50 miles away from where shannon lived and worked. detective pate was just about out of questions. and then -- >> an interesting thing happened. as we're leaving, getting ready to finish up the interview with her, someone hands me a note. and it's from a supervisor. and it says, "a gentleman, one of her co-workers would like to speak with you before you leave." >> reporter: and what that co-worker had to say would raise serious questions. not just for shannon crawley but also for her former lover, jermeir stroud. coming up -- did someone want shannon dead as well? >> she says, you know, i'm kind of in fear of my life. >> when "dateline" continues. esd in california. my parents' job is to look after them. and it's my job to test the product.

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the denita smith murder investigation had now stretched from durham to greensboro, where detective shawn pate was now talking to shannon crawley's colleague at the 911 call center. he said shannon had been getting a lot of disturbing personal phone calls at work. >> he said jermeir stroud would call up here all the time and want to speak to her. >> reporter: this is going back months now? >> months, months, months. and on one particular occasion she says, you know, i'm kind of

in fear of my life. i'm scared. i don't know what he might do to me. he's shown up at my house. and he has a gun with him at all times. >> reporter: shannon's co-worker was concerned and wanted to help. >> it gets to the point that he offered to sell her a gun, which he did. he named the exact model, and tells me that he gave her bullets to accompany the gun and offered to teach her how to use it. >> reporter: what kind of gun? >> it was a .38-caliber revolver. >> reporter: the same type of gun detectives thought denita's killer might have used. >> you know, wait a minute. i just finished a interview with her five minutes ago and she told me, "i never owned a gun." and in that same interview, i asked her, do you think that jermeir is capable of murder? and she said, "no, not at all" just like that, "no, not at all." but you're telling a co-worker that you're in fear for your life from jermeir. >> reporter: conflicting stories

that cast suspicion on shannon and on jermeir. so that next day detective pate spoke with jermeir stroud once again. he denied ever harassing shannon at work and said there was no reason why she would be afraid of him. but jermeir's answer to one particular question got detective pate's attention. >> i asked him, "do you think that shannon is capable of killing someone?" and he said, "yes." >> reporter: as the investigation continued in durham, police showed shannon crawley's photo to that maintenance man who'd seen a woman driving away from the crime scene on the morning of the murder. and he could not identify shannon as the driver. then they showed him a picture of shannon's burgundy ford explorer. >> he was very positive about the vehicle. he said, "yep, that's the vehicle that i saw." >> reporter: and that wasn't the only thing the witness noticed,

says assistant d.a. david saacks. >> he remembers a patch or some kind of something, you know, on the shirt. >> reporter: a patch like on the uniform shannon wore as a 911 dispatcher. and there was more. investigators discovered shannon clocked in at about 10:00 a.m., some two hours after denita smith had been murdered. more than enough time for the 55-mile drive from durham to her job at the 911 center in greensboro. so police obtained a search warrant for shannon's house. >> and we do find greensboro communication 911 center uniforms. and they are exactly as described by the maintenance supervisor down to the color of the patch and the shape. >> reporter: you find a gun? >> no gun was found. no bullets were found. nothing incriminating other than that. >> reporter: and then came this. shannon had told police she had never been to durham, but her cell phone records clearly

indicated she had been there. not on the day denita was killed. shannon, or at least her phone, had been there the day before. >> she was hitting a tower that placed her no less than 100 feet away from where denita would be found dead the next morning. >> reporter: and you think what's going on there? >> i'm thinking it's recon. >> reporter: shannon showed up a day early to find out exactly which apartment denita lived in? >> you have to know when to be there and where to place yourself, where to stand, without looking suspicious because if you just linger for hours, someone's going to say you don't even live here, what are you doing? >> reporter: police also checked jermeir stroud's cell phone and police radio and found he was nowhere near durham that day before the killing. only shannon. so police impounded her suv. >> we did gunshot residue tests on the car, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, and comes back

there is gunshot residue. >> reporter: and if all that didn't look bad enough, shannon's alibi now started to fall apart. she had told her supervisor and detectives she was taking her child to the doctor at the time of denita's murder. but the pediatrician told police shannon didn't show up that day. >> the story starts to unravel. nothing is adding up. >> reporter: shannon was looking like a prime suspect, but one thing was missing -- motive. then detective pate remembered shannon's account of how she and jermeir had decided that she would have an abortion. and the way she told the story made an impression on pate. >> when shannon said, "jermeir, i'm pregnant, what are we going to do?" he said, "i don't want to have a baby with you." he told me that's how he said it. and she quoted it back to me verbatim. and she said, "i remember those words." >> reporter: not just "i don't

want to have a baby" or "i don't want to have a baby right now." >> "i don't want to have a baby with you." i imagine that sucked just a little bit of her soul out. >> reporter: is that your motivation right there? >> i think that's where the seed was planted. i really do. because that implies that there is someone else that you would like to have a child with. >> reporter: maybe someone like jermeir's fiance, denita smith. detective pate now thought shannon crawley had the means, the opportunity and the motive to commit murder. >> and it got to the point we thought, this is all we're going to get right now. and it's more than enough. >> reporter: well, was it enough? police had no dna, no fingerprints, no murder weapon and no forensics at the crime scene that linked shannon to denita's murder. but detective pate was also thinking about denita's family. >> the family is suffering. let's go ahead and give them a little peace right now. >> reporter: five days after

denita smith's murder, detective pate drove back to greensboro with a warrant to arrest shannon crawley. she and her children were staying at her sister's house when police arrived. >> shannon comes out. they cuff her, and she walks out the door as though she's going to check the mail. >> reporter: pate says shannon did not seem surprised to see him. >> there is no sad look or anything like that. she gets to the end of the driveway. she looks at her family and says, "raise them like they're your own." >> well those are the words of a woman who does not expect to be raising her own children. >> exactly. >> reporter: shannon's family watched their daughter be cuffed and taken away. >> it was more than upsetting. i was angry. i was afraid for her. and knowing in my heart that my daughter could never, ever have done that. >> reporter: shannon was just 28. she'd never been in trouble with the law. now she was being charged with

first-degree murder and could face life in prison. when she arrived at the police station, shannon was again cool and calm and had little to say to say except this to detective pate. >> i didn't do this. but you need to worry about where jermeir was when this happened. >> coming up -- jermeir had said his affair with shannon was over. was it? >> he wanted her to come back to him? >> he wanted her to come back to him. and she didn't. >> when "dateline" continues. ats now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

they called it a "home-going service," the final farewell to 25-year-old denita smith, who had departed this world under the worst of circumstances. just a week earlier, denita's mother, sharon, was starting to plan her daughter's wedding. now she was attending denita's

funeral. >> no parent wants to see their child laying in -- in a casket. and denita's life was -- it was snatched from under her, stolen. >> reporter: it seemed the whole town turned out on that january day in 2007. denita's close friend, edythe kearns, spoke at the funeral. >> the home going was an emotional day. it was definitely some sadness. but we were trying to, you know, be happy and think about her spirit and life legacy and the way that she would want all of us to go on. but at that time, i think it was just too much, and it was overwhelming. >> reporter: denita's fiancé, jermeir stroud, was there as well. >> jermeir was sad, and he was crying. and he appeared -- clearly, he was devastated. and i think reality was starting to sink in and that it hit him that the love of his life was no longer with us. >> reporter: it was of little comfort to denita's family and friends that the woman accused

of killing her was sitting in the durham county jail. shannon crawley had been arrested the day before and charged with first-degree murder. now her family was mourning, too. >> it's devastating, the fear that you have at that point for your child. >> and no one can convince me that my child did that. i know her. >> reporter: shannon's dad, himself a former deputy sheriff, was convinced his daughter was a victim of a shoddy investigation by the durham police, perhaps deliberately so. >> i'm not saying that they framed her. i'm saying that they simply allowed themselves to be led in that direction. and if they had any suspicions that another police officer was involved, they decided not to follow that up. >> you were in law enforcement. >> yes. >> you cover up crimes by other officers? >> no, i never did. >> and what you're suggesting is that durham cops, who didn't even know jermeir, looked away from a murder committed by a guy

who worked for another department in another city? they're risking prison time for this guy they don't even know? >> cops will protect other cops regardless of what department they're in. there are always that few, not many. >> reporter: to the contrary, assistant district attorney david saacks, who was assigned to prosecute, says he was extra careful in building his case against shannon precisely because jermeir was a police officer. >> i needed to make sure that everything was done by the book and we vetted everything as well as we could and delved into everything as deep as we could because he was a cop. >> because if you clear him, you know you're going to get that criticism. >> absolutely. we ended up having to have several different interviews with jermeir. and each time we would get maybe a little something more. and so it took a little while sometimes to pull all that stuff out. >> reporter: investigators say he appeared devastated. jermeir stroud insisted he had

no idea his secret romance might place denita in danger. but detective pate still thought jermeir was not entirely forthcoming. >> jermeir would tell me the truth, but you had to ask it. >> he wasn't volunteering anything? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: they interviewed jermeir both at the greensboro pd and over the phone. and each time a little bit more information would emerge, including what happened after he and shannon ended their romantic relationship. following their breakup, about a year before denita's murder, jermeir said he went on a church retreat. there his pastor encouraged him to apologize to anyone he had wronged. so jermeir called shannon. >> he said i apologize in great detail about everything that he's sorry for. he said, "i was on the phone for 12 hours.

my cell phone went dead. i charged it -- i mean, had it plugged in. and we talked until i fell asleep." 12 hours. >> apologizing. >> sorry for everything. >> interesting that he talked to shannon about it but not denita. >> of course not. she didn't know that there was something he needed to apologize for. >> reporter: but pate believes all that apologizing to shannon may have jump-started something else. >> that's where the relationship kind of picked up again. because there were a lot of feelings that were shared. >> so they start talking again. >> exactly. >> reporter: jermeir insisted he and shannon did not become romantic or sexual again. but clearly there was something. >> he was always there for shannon. if shannon was distraught or wanted to call in the middle of the night, you know, and knew that jermeir was working, she would call him and he would put up with it. >> maybe he didn't want to be the bad guy? >> maybe didn't want to be the bad guy. >> he doesn't see that he's leaving the door open. as long as you keep doing all the things that a boyfriend

would do, then in her mind she still has a chance. >> there's still a shot. >> exactly. i honestly thought hubris made him believe that he could control it. >> reporter: but police say jermeir wasn't able to control the situation with shannon. some three months before denita was murdered, shannon bought this house near where jermeir lived. and when police searched that new home shannon's, they were surprised by what they saw and what they didn't see. >> kids' rooms, beds, everything you expect to be in a nice children's room. mom had a mattress on the floor. there was little to no living room furniture, no dining room set, nothing in the kitchen. >> suggesting what? she was overspending so she could live near jermeir? >> just to be near jermeir. that's the only reason. there was a clear pattern of her placing herself near him at every turn. it seemed kind of stalkerish.

coming up -- >> shannon's brand-new story. >> he said, i'll make it real simple. it could turn the entire case on its head. when "dateline" continues. ues. find your rhythm. your happy place. find your breaking point. then break it. every emergen-c gives you a potent blend of nutrients so you can emerge your best, with emergen-c.

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