welcome back, i'm ali velshi, there are now more than 100,000 cases of covid-19 in the united states. that's the highest number in the world. at least 1,605 people have died. new york state itself has 519 fatalities and 44,635 cases of its own. at least 18 states are under stay at home orders. late yesterday, president trump signed a massive $2.2 trillion relief bill called the cares act meant to help struggling individuals, families and businesses of all sizes get through at least the immediate future of what's to come. the legislation includes unprecedented dreirect paymentso most americans. house speaker nancy pelosi addressed the situation last night in an exclusive interview with msnbc's rachel maddow. >> it's not a surprise to

anyone, but congress will exercise its oversight, and we will have our panel of house -- appointed by the house in realtime to make sure we know where those funds are being expended. but let me just say that the president's statement is indicative of the difference between democrats and republicans when it came to this bill. the bill was jujitsu. we just took their bill and turned it around, so they signed it in the white house as if they had some real prove nance as to what was in the bill. >> that legislation was signed just over 24 hours after the weekly jobless numbers revealed that 3.3 million americans filed for unemployment, quadrupling the previous weekly record. trump has also invoked the defense production act to compel general motors to make much needed ventilators. joining me now in baltimore, dr. lena wen, she's a visiting professor at george washington school of public health and formerly baltimore's health

commissioner. she's got two new pieces out in "the washington post." one called it's a scary time to be pregnant but i'm still so grateful, and in time magazine, we're always behind on coronavirus, we need to start planning ahead to beat it. in new york joining me senior financial reporter for nbc news investigations unit, gretchen morganson. she's the co-author of the best selling book "reckless endangerment, how outsized ambition, greed, and corruption created the worst financial crisis of our time." interestingly, both of you with completely different specialties are experts on what we're facing right now. lena, you and i have been talking for weeks. i didn't know you were pregnant, and i have to say that while there's no evidence that coronavirus has a particular risk to women who are pregnant, it's got to be scary thinking about that, right? that you're around people all the time. you're going to need medical treatment. you're going to likely need to be in a hospital setting at some point unless you're not, but that's got to be something that

pregnant women across this country are worrying about right now. >> absolutely, i mean, pregnancy is already a time that's filled with uncertainty and life changes and then you add on top of that being pregnant in the middle of a pandemic, and i think it just is another thing that we have to keep in mind that health care continues. people still are seeking treatment for their heart attacks and strokes and diabetes, and other medical issues, and that doesn't stop in the middle of a pandemic. and health care is already an unlimited resource and it's becoming an increasingly scarce resource for all the patients who need care for covid-19, too. >> what are you worried the most about with respect to medical care? i've been speaking to so many health professionals. some of them are concerned about the lack of personal protective gear, others are worried about the lack of ability to treat patients if equipment like ventilators are tnot around. still others are worried about maxing out on capacity so people

who are pregnant or have heart attacks or who otherwise need hospital services don't get them. what are you most concerned about? >> i think these are all part of the same problem, which is just that we're so under prepared, and i don't think any of us could have imagined the situation that we would be in now where we are blocking the equipment, something as basic as masks and gowns, which i can't believe we're still talking about. we recognize the problem. we should have fixed it by now. the fact that health care workers can't protect themselves, how are they going to be able to treat patients? we want health care workers to be worried about the patient, not about whether they can secure the mask for their own use. and i think it's part of the same problem of worrying about bed space, worrying about ventilators, worrying about icus. we really should have all of that, we should have prepared for that months ago when we saw this happening in china. now moving forward, though, we need to anticipate. we need to understand that the numbers that we are seeing, the number of cases that we're

seeing on only reflects what happened a couple of weeks ago when people got infected. we actually don't know the true numbers as they stand now because of lack of testing, and we need to be actively preparing for what's next and not just preparing for what happened in the past. >> yeah. gretchen you and i work in the same place, but i don't think you and i have been on tv together since the last recession, and you're something of o'an expean expert on it. when i walk outside of my home where i'm broadcasting from in manhattan, i am devastated by the number of businesses that are closed. i live in a part of manhattan where there are still small family-owned businesses not a ton of them o'because they're disappearing across the country, but they are there and they are closed and that is what i worry the most about. not only are these american businesses that is the heart of the american spirit, but they employ people and those employees are out of work now.

>> absolutely, ali, you hit it on the head. american small businesses are the bedrock of our economy. they employ 57 million people across the country, and even in good times, they have trouble meeting their cash flows, so over 3/4 of small businesses fail because they don't have adequate cash flows. they need the money that is this package yesterday, actually last week, and so what i'm concerned about is how this money, it's $349 billion in guaranteed loans to go to small businesses, how is that going to get to them? it is going to go through bapgs a -- banks and banks are not the most quick conduit for money in these cases, and i'm just concerned that we are going to have massive, massive unemployment because they're not going to be able to get the funds soon enough. >> yeah, i'm worried about that

too. lena, i spoke last night to the head of the ems, the new york fire department ems union. they hit a record on thursday, the busiest day they've ever had. by the way, this is including 9/11, and on thursday, and then on friday they hit another record, there were more than 7,911 calls in new york. there were at one point there were 700 people on hold for calling 911. they've asked people if you're not having literally a heart attack or medical emergency that requires you to be moved to the hospital, don't call 911, call 311 or call your doctor. this gentleman said we'll be there, we'll come and get you, but we're out of personal protective equipment. we do not have the resources to do this, and the rest of the country should be looking at new york as a warning of what could come your way. >> yeah, i'm afraid that we are close to a collapse of some of our critical systems, and i don't think we planned for this. i mean, what happens if we have a collapse of our 911 system because too many paramedics and

emts and police officers are out because of illness or exposure. what happens if that occurs? i also think that we should be looking at new york exactly as was said yesterday, as an example of what could happen to the rest of the country because of the rest of the country is not that far behind. i mean, we look at what's going on in new york now with all these people who can't even get into hospitals and not only, again, for coronavirus, but also for their other medical emergencies, too. and we know that there are other hot spots in michigan, in louisiana, that are not far behind, and the rest of the country, because of lack of testing, could well be next. so we really need to ramp up production of all this equipment that we're talking about, the personal protective equipment, the beds, the ventilators. we need to be doing that now. actually, we should have been doing that weeks ago, but we need to look forward. we need to get that now because health care workers and patients need to know what exactly is being produced, and when is that going to get to them on the

front lines. >> and gretchen, i'm just looking at some charts of stock market performance over the last couple of years. i remind myself and while markets are down about 20% so far this year, and nobody needs me reminding them of that because they know what their 401(k)s look like, over the course of ten years since around the great recession, they're up over 120%. what's your sense of when we will start to see stability, not a return yet because that's a big hole to climb out of, but do you think that this bill that we've passed starts to bring stability back to this market? >> it might. it might, but ali, i think what you have to remember is what you see in the stock market is not what you're seeing across corporate america. we are coming into this very destructive recession at a moment where corporate debt is at record highs, and so what this means is you don't see this in the s&p 500, but what you are

having are many, many companies, mid-sized, small sized companies that have really taken on massive amounts of debt because we had a zero or low interest rate environment. debt was free and easy, they are now in a position where they're going to have to repay that debt or service that debt in the midst of one of the worst recessions ever. so we are going to see bankruptcies. we are going to see collapses of these businesses. you don't see that yet in the s&p 500 because that is the biggest companies in that index. it does not account for smaller and mid-sized companies which have a huge role in the economy. so i would say i'm certainly not ready to say it's all over because we are going to see massive numbers of delinquencies and defaults. >> i am rereading a lot of the important books of the last recession including yours,

reckless endangerment, how outsized ambition, greed, and corruption created the worst financial crisis of our time. thank you to both of you. you should be reading lena wen's articles on a regular basis. she's a professor at george washington university school of public health and gretchen is our senior financial reporter for nbc news's investigation units. thank you to both of you. since when are human lives worth less than the economy, why the not dying for wall street hashtag is trending. that's next on velshi. thousands of women with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread to other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women or for men with hr+/her2- metastatic breast cancer, as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole, and shrank tumors in over half of patients.

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what did the senate majority fight for, one of the largest corporate bailouts with as few strings as possible in american history? shameful, the greed of that fight is wrong, for crumbs for our families and the option that we have is to either let them suffer with nothing or to allow this greed and billions of dollars, which will be leveraged into trillions of dollars to contribute to the largest income inequality gap in our future. >> democrats are raising the alarm after president trump released a statement that he would not abide to certain oversight provisions for the $500 billion in loans for corporations included in the latest coronavirus relief bill. this is reminding those of the financial crisis of 2008 where the government spent more than half a trillion dollars to bail

out struggling banks under the troubled asset relief program known as tarp. in the decades since then, we've learned what worked then and what didn't and why strict treasury oversight is needed for these big relief bilts. here with me now is a former inspector general for the troubled asset relief program during the 2008 bailout, and jennifer rubin, columnist for "the washington post" and msnbc political contributor. welcome to both of you. neil, you will know that i had invited you on my show prior to this change in the bill in which they have decided to name a special inspector general for this -- for the money that's going to corporations, which is, in my opinion, a remarkably good development. so a, i want you to tell me what that means. let our viewers know what that means. more importantly last night president trump basically said that some of these rules about the money that goes to corporations he's going to take as advisory, not as something that has to be followed.

so your thoughts on that as well? >> sure, thank you, and thanks for having me on, but yes, what they did in this bill, what the democrats in congress insisted upon was the inclusion of a special inspector general, my old job on the tarp program, and when they did so, they just took the language out of the -- what was called the emergency economic stabilization act of 2008, the bill that created tarp and created my old office, the office of the special inspector general, and they kind of took the language untouched from that bill and put it into this bill to create a new special inspector general. and that job is twofold. one, it's a law enforcement agency. think of like a mini fbi for these programs that treasury is about to roll out, you know, with full law enforcement authority, but the other part, again, same job that i had was a transparency component to do reports, to analyze the programs, look for vulnerabilities to fraud where they're inefficient, where they're not fulfilling their policy goals and report to congress the and american

people. that is one of the most important if not the most important aspect of oversight is someone within the federal government to be watching, making sure the policies are being followed and to make recommendations to fix it. and look, sometimes those reports are negative, but the one thing that we always had because the language in the bill was the ability to tell congress the unvarnished story. and so that was preserved in this bill, but unlike president bush who signed the last ballot and president obama who administered over it, president trump has said that this language, the exact same language isn't right. it isn't binding on him, and that is very, very concerning. >> yeah, his language here is that i do not understand and my administration will not treat this provision as permitting the special inspector general to issue reports to the congress without the presidential supervision. jennifer rubin, i remind people every now and then, you are a lawyer by training. there's another part of this bill that calls for

congressional oversight of these things, and the president wrote this, he said this, accordingly, my administration will treat this provision as hort toir and not mandatory. putting aside the fact none of us have never heard president trump use the term hortit oory means you're not forced to. we're not just giving money without oversight. that's not meant to be a recommendation to the president, it's meant to be a directive for taxpayer money that is being spent. >> yeah, it's pretty amazing given the fact that there was such bad feelings about giving this amount of money to congress. if you remember in the initial incarnation, this bill did not have a lot of requirements, for example, it didn't have a prohibiti prohibition, didn't have a requirement to keep people employed. so the democrats, as nancy

pelosi said, they actually made it more worker friendly, but the notion that the president's going to disregard this language and do whatever he wants and give money to his friends or giver money give money to favorite industries. i think that, first of all, is legally obnoxious and really uncalled for, and secondly i think it's politically disastro disastrous. you saw when senator burr of north carolina was accused of using his inside information to benefit himself during the coronavirus. the reaction was so swift, the sentiment is so negative about those who are perceived as the rich, the powerful benefitting that i think the backlash will be tremendous. and in an election year, you can bet that the democrats are going to exploit that. you can bet nancy pelosi is going to make a big deal about it and joe biden's going to make a big deal about it, too. >> neil, there are rules in the $500 billion that goes to companies including the fact

that you can't use it for executive compensation, you cannot use it for stock buybacks, which a lot of these airlines have been doing over the last years, you've got to use it for employee compensation and payroll. what are the things that can go wrong? the rules are there. why do you need congressional oversight and a special inspector general? what should we all be on alert for in terms of potential trouble. >> a lot of those rules are waivable by the treasure by secretary himself under the terms of the bill, including in certain circumstances on buybacks. that sort of goes to the heart of this. so much discretion in this bill is given to the treasury department, federal reserve, to the government. so much discretion. they are literally going to be picking winners and losers deciding who gets money and who doesn't get money as they roll out the rules and the policies and actually making the decision-making process begins on who gets relief and who does

not, and that is when transparency is the most important because it is the -- you know, it was a long time ago that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and here if you think of corruption as the disease, that sunlight is going to make sure that policymakers make their decisions down the middle, without favor to, you know, the companies that have the best political connections or play golf with the right person or have the most powerful lobbyists, that oversight is what helps chekeep everyone hon, if you take away the ability to provide that sunlight, to explain to congress when they're being obstructed or to marylaod those reports, that's when that virus of corruption, which can be as pernicious as corona itself in a ballot of this size and scope and this much discretion, i think that's why it's so concerning. >> a former special inspector general for the troubled asset relief program, tarp, and a

partn partner at jenner and block. jennifer rubin is a columnist for "the washington post" and an msnbc political contributor. president trump has approved michigan's disaster declaration. this is going to make federal funding available for crisis counseling for individuals in all areas of the state. the move comes after a tense week between trump and michigan's governor gretchen whitmer. trump says he instructed the vice president not to call whitmer or governor jay inslee of washington because they don't appreciate him. while coronavirus is a killer, america is surely to ultimately get it under control, but for the world's most vulnerable populations, this is actually a fight for their existence. that's next. you're watching "velshi" on msnbc. neuriva has clinically proven ingredients that fuel 5 indicators of brain performance. memory, focus, accuracy, learning, and concentration. try neuriva for 30 days and see the difference.

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numbers of those infected with the coronavirus keep rising as hospitals around the world don't have the capacity to care

for the sick. few countries have been able to contain the virus as many like the united states are considered to have acted too late. now in an effort to contain its spread, countries around the world are putting in place travel bans and mandatory quarantines shutting down cities. the latest nation to do so is the united kingdom, which like the united states was initially slow to react to the pandemic. for most nations, the virus has not reached its peak. the peak is when there are fewer cases day after day than there were in the prior days. we have more every day, countries like iran, italy and spain have continued to see those numbers of infection and death climb, but there are some nations that have been able to so-called flatten the curve, to control outbreaks and keep their citizens healthy, those places are singapore, south korea, and hong kong, which modeled appropriate actions through immediate mass testing, social distancing and using protective gear. with me now to discuss whose models around the world we can emulate and what populations are

most at risk, the ceo of the international rescue committee and the former british foreign secretary as well as dr. irwin redlenner, director for the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia and an msnbc public health analystanal. they are both familiar with vulnerable populations, refugee populations. in fact, david, we are still finding that the most robust developed health care systems in the world are having difficulty controlling this from an emergency response and a medical care and a containment perspective, and this infection has not yet hit the most vulnerable populations in the world in a meaningful way. >> you're absolutely right, ali, we're living at a time when there are 70 million refugees and displaced people from war around the world. we're living at a time when there are 140 million children living in high intensity battle zones, so there's a humanitarian

crisis where there aren't the public health systems, there aren't the hospitals, and that means that these populations are especially vulnerable when the crisis hits. and my big point at the moment is that the places where the international rescue committee works, 18 african countries, five countries in the middle east, bangladesh, afghanistan, and pakistan in south asia, these countries haven't yet been ravaged by the disease, and there's a precious gift of time that we are desperate to use to make sure that some preventative measures, the basic hand washing, the basic testing, the basic isolation areas are put in place before this runs rampant in a population that can ill afford it. i would say we're facing a double crisis, yes, a health crisis in advanced industrialized countries, but also an international leadership crisis to make sure that the most vulnerable in the world don't suffer all over again. >> and irwin, you know, the world knows you now because

you're on tv every single day. i know you for a different reason, you and i used to talk about the impact of crises on children, whether or not children are uniquely susceptible to this disease, and it seems like they're not in most cases. we are seeing instances of young people contracting coronavirus, this is just the stress, just the tension around the world of children locked in without their parents or as david says in refugee situations or in poor countries, that's a crisis, separate crisis unto itself? >> it certainly is, and that children are always more vulnerable for some reason that we don't clearly understand yet, children have more or less been spared. there's been a couple of reports out of china that have indicated that there are already children being affected. there's been a couple of deaths in china of children, one 10-month-old and a 14-year-old, both of them had pre-existing conditions. on the other hand, we also are seeing more and more and we don't have all the data yet of

just younger people getting sick, very sick. we have lots of health care workers now who are quite sick. there's several in new york city who are hospitalized in icus on ventilators and so on, but the point is that right now i think the children that are in these conflict zones around the world, there's nobody more familiar with what's happening, what's going to be happening than david milibrand, i think what we're doing is a situation where he's outlined what needs to be done. i think what most of us fear is it won't actually get done. children are already in great danger. the millions of children who are refugees who are isolated in places where there's no medical care, i wrote an op-ed in "the washington post" about a month ago, almost a month exactly, exactly a month ago that said -- i was looking at the increasing conflict in the war zones of northern syria, and i postulate, you know, what happens if they on top of everything else have a major outbreak of covid-19.

there's almost no reason why it wouldn't. meanwhile, their hospital and health care system has been meticulously destroyed, sometimes a hospital is directly targeted by the fighting forces. 53 hospitals, in fact, have been lost in syria. this is going to be replicated all over receivevery single one those places where the international rescue committee is working. so i think we're in for another wave of horror that we have no idea how that's going to play out yet with children and younger people. but yes, they're going to be vulnerable, even if their parents are affected, we could see, you know, a massive number of pandemic orphans coming down the road here. >> it's march 28th, february 28th president trump said like a miracle this is going to disappear. in the united kingdom, boris johnson was not one month ago even less than that taking this seriously, talking about how proud he was about how he was

shaking everybody's hand. i'm not sure, i mean, at least we've got pictures up of boris johnson's briefing. at least he is responded by two health experts. it doesn't happen to be the self-congratulatory thing we have going on in the united states, but are we actually smart enough to get ahead of this in other countries? there has not been a coordinated international response to this of any meaningful sort, and the countries and the people and the refugees that are now vulnerable, will they benefit from the stupidity of the world in the last month? >> well, you're making a very important point, ali. the denialism, the refusal to face the facts that i'm afraid we've seen both in the autocratic world in china at the beginning of the virus, but also in the democratic world over the the last two months, the highest price is going to be paid obviously by the vulnerable in our own populations, but also by the most vulnerable and in the greater form by the most vulnerable around the world. there are really three parts to the international corporation

equation that are being missed at the moment. the first part is around health and public health. it's about sharing of data, but also above all combined efforts on the production of the critical kits, masks, the ventilators, the general medical kit that's needed. secondly, economic cooperation. we know from the 2008, financial crisis, i watched the way the uk prime minister and president bush and then president obama rallied an international effort and created the g20 in 2009. and thirdly, there's the global political effort because the efforts at peace keeping and peacemaking that have been so feeble over the last five or ten years need to be redoubled because if the wars continue, if the bombing of hospitals that dr. redlenner has rightly highlighted, if that continues, then this will be a mass killer of people who are not just innocent but actually could be saved from this disease. >> thank you to both of you, david mili band is ceo of the

international rescue committee, dr. irwin redlenner is the director of the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia and an msnbc public health analyst. we're grateful to both of you for your expertise and guidance. hospitals are gasping for breathing room, ventilators are in high demand, and to put it simply, there just aren't enough to go around. >> i feel incredibly sad because so many patients die without having someone by their side. we have strict visitor requirements, so so often a patient will be on their death bed dying alone. to soothe and moisturize a dry mouth. plus, it freshens breath. biotène. immediate and long lasting dry mouth symptom relief. you can't claim that because it's inanimate! people ask me what sort of person should become a celebrity accountant. and, i tell them, "nobody should."

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shape your future. start here. complete the census at 2020census.gov. this afternoon i invoked the defense production act to compel general motors to spefperform a prioritize federal contracts for ventilators. ventilators are a big deal, and we've delivered thousands of them and oftentimes you don't need ventilators very much. hospitals don't have very many, and now we're turning out that we have to produce large numbers. >> the president officially invoking the defense production act after expressing reluctance over using his power. on wednesday trump planned to announce a deal with general motors and ventec life systems for 80,000 ventilators, but the $1 billion price tag reportedly gave his administration second

thoughts. as the president is now promising 100,000 ventilators by july, some remain concerned that even that isn't going to be enough. several disability rights groups are filing civil complaints in alabama and washington claiming that the state's ventilator rationing plans would discriminate against the disabled and put them at imminent risk amid the coronavirus pandemic. while medical professionals worry about contracting and spreading the virus to patients, the health care solutions distributor henry shine has produced covid-19 antibody rapid tests to help prevent that by helping to identify workers who had the virus, failed to show symptoms and are now immune. joining me now is the ceo of that company, stanbe bergman. thank you for being here. there have been a number of people who have been debating the idea of donald trump saying america has to get to work by easter. he's sort of walking that back a little bit, but the thinking is that the people who can go to work sooner than others are those that contracted coronavirus were either symptomatic or asymptomatic and

may have developed some immunity. so the idea that people can test for that immunity is what your test is offering, right? >> yes, good morning, ali. the area of testing for the coronavirus is a little bit complex. first of all, it's not as simple as a pregnancy test. you're either pregnant or you're not. the way the testing really works and, again, i'm not a physician, but this is the way i understand it from the physicians is there are three kinds of tests in broad categories. there's the molecular, which is the best at the early stage of the infection. of course, it has some -- it can be used later on as well. and then you have the antigen test, which is useful in the short-term to medium term after somebody has contracted the virus, but the test that we will be bringing to market shortly

and will be available hopefully next week is the antibody test. it's a blood test. it's a pinprick test, no machine is needed. 15 minutes availability, and should be available in relatively large quantities from us and perhaps others in the near future. this test will enable the health care practitioner together with patient history with other testing to determine whether the patient is free from the coronavirus, has in fact, been infected, and can be used to determine whether the patient can, in fact, return to the work force. >> and can this, stan, be deployed in numbers that are big enough to allow policymakers to make decisions to say, okay, on a date certain, those of you who have tested to have antibodies cannot be in quarantine, not with be in self-isolation and return to

work? >> ali, thatst wh's what we exp. we expect to have hundreds of thousands of these tests and then millions of tests. not only from the manufacturer that henry schein has a relationship with, we also expect to have several manufacturers we work with and expect in the not too distant future to have hundreds of thousands of millions of these tests of course there are no guarantees, but we are comfortable we have plans in place that result in millions of these tests being made available. these are the rapid tests that test the antibody tests that make clinical decisions on the condition of the patient on whether the patient will be able to go back to work. >> when you and i met two decades ago, henry schein was in

the business of the dental supplies, and now you've expanded. every hospital, every doctor knows or deals with henry schein, where are we in the supply world? you probably have the closest view of where the shortages are and what the supply chain looks like for gloves, for masks, for ventilators, for respirators, n95 respirators. give me your 20,000 foot view of where we are. >> we are today the largest provider of products in what's called office space health care practitioners, that's dentists and physicians in their private practice or a hospital that may own ultimate care sites that provide medical services. and in this context, we are, of course, active in what's called ppe. that's the preventative products. so the area that we have been most focused on has been masks. unfortunately, it was a perfect

storm. the virus started out in china in the early part of this year, and as china moved into the chinese new year, factories were shut down for people to go on vacation, and then the virus hit in a major way in china at the same time factory production was scheduled to come on board and could not. it was delayed because the factories could not actively engage again too quickly after the chinese new year because of the concern of the virus spreading. so we have had a shortage of masks. the area that henry schein focuses on is the surgical mask, and i think the availability of surgical masks will start to ease in the next period of time. of course, it's not going to satisfy all the needs, so we will still have rationing. the biggest challenge, ali, and i hope that your viewers

understand this, surgical masks and the n95s should be used by health care professionals. unfortunately, a lot of the consumers bought these products and that took a lot of production -- capacity out of availability to health care professionals. so we need to ensure that these masks go to people on the front line that are taking care of patients. >> stan bergman is a ceo at henry schein, thank you as always for helping me out and helping our audience understand this. that uneasy discomfort that you're feeling, that we're all feeling, that i'm feeling, it's actually grief, and if we can acknowledge that, maybe we can manage it better. our next guest is going to tell us how. ng your vision to life and save in more ways than one.

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that uncertainty is harder when separation is keeping you from the ones who can comfort you the most. as each day goes by the hope starts to fade as your emotions change. anger, disappointment, confusion, sad rns and all of it is okay because we're human. it's okay to be human in this moment. we are actually grieving the normalcy of our lives. that's not my opinion. that's according to an expert who explained to the harvard business review this is quote the loss of normalcy. the fear of economic toll. the loss of connection. we are grieving collectively. we are not used to this kind of collective grief in the air, end quote. we will survive this. but we're going to need some help. joining me now is david kesler. he's the founder of the website grief.com. he's the author of "finding meaning, the sixth stage of grief." david, thank you for doing this. >> thank you.

>> it's an important conversation. there are people who have called and told me they're feeling anxiety and my response is you should. this is what anxiety was built for. this was what fear was built for. we are given these emotions to deal with the challenges in our life and to some degree that is what grief is for too, right? that's how we emotionally confront things like this where normalcy is challenged. >> exactly. you know, grief is change. and it's a change we didn't want. and this is a change we didn't want. we're used to turning on our tvs and seeing images of sporting games and entertainment. we're not used to seeing hospitals and people dying and not seeing our friends. we have so many losses around us. it's important we name it as grief. >> what can people do when they're feeling this grief? are there actual things that people can do rather than just

acknowledge it? >> absolutely. first of all, when we ak septz -- accept it that's where we can find our power and we can take action. we have to know the same way we used to talk about -- do you remember before 9/11 what airports looked like? we're going to be saying do you remember what the world looked like before the pandemic? so in this moment we have to recognize what's in our control, that we're okay, that we can get through this and not let our mind show us all the worst scenarios. have it show us the worst one, yes, people could die and also the best ones, we will get through this, and we have to allow both images to balance one another and not go to those worst scenarios. >> you had described what you associate -- go ahead, david. >> i was going to say, the other thing that's never happened in our history, whether it's aids

or war or anything, 9/11, we have never not been allowed to bury our dead. we have never not been allowed to be with them when they died. this is unprecedented in grief. one of the things set up because people have been so displaced, there was a woman whose husband died two weeks ago, not with this, not related. she was sitting at home alone not able to get to their grief group. we've set up a daily grief group so that in this isolation they can process and be with others. >> can you tell us where they can find that grief group? >> they can find information at grief.come and they can find it at facebook.com/david groups/david kes ler. >> describe the heaviness, that

that is a common sense that people are dealing with. it feels like there's weight on you. >> absolutely. we have this heaviness. people will say i was going to bed and i started to cry. i mean, i've been with people who have said i haven't cried in ten years. since this funeral i was at or they wake up or they just don't nose why things feel so off and they feel so sad. that sadness is grief. it is loss. and it is okay to feel this because so much has gone. and the truth is, if you feel the feeling then you can just go to the next feeling and keep moving. we -- you know, we become a society that has judgment on our feelings. we feel a feeling and think we're wrong for feeling it. this is normal. and this is normal for this abnormal world we are all finding ourselves in. >> we're a world of populated with people who like to be in control of things and now we are not in control of any of it.

and that's a big loss. author and grief expert, my gratitude to you for this. all right. let's turn to a story we can all use right now. new yorkers across the city took two minutes yesterday evening to clap for health workers and first responders. that's just one image. this happened all over new york. news of the tribute spread over social media under the hashtag we clap because we care. atlanta held a similar moment of thanks with people cheering from their homes. it's following a trend seeing across the world. united kingdom, iran, citizens lean out windows and stand on balconies and show appreciation for the people working to save their lives and to keep their

cities going. >> next, two leading members of congress from the latest coronavirus hot spots. wait... i want a bucket of chicken... i want... ♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. but when allergies attack,f any the excitement fades. allegra helps you say yes with the fastest non-drowsy allergy relief and turning a half hearted yes,

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