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good evening and thank you for joining us for our extended coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. i'm ali velshi. we now have more than 140,000 coronavirus cases here in the united states. more than 2400 americans have now died. the president spoke earlier tonight in the rose garden and admitted when we all suspected, that the country is not going to be up and running by easter. instead he extended guidelines for social distancing to at least april the 30th, and after dr. anthony fauci said the united states could see 100,000 to 200,000 deaths as a result of covid-19, the president cited an estimate that said if the federal government had done nothing, 2.2 million people could have died. he then said if 100,000 --

200,000 americans die, it would mean that the federal government did a good job. >> when i heard the number today -- first time i've heard that number, because i've been asking the same question that people have been asked -- i felt even better about what we did last week with the $2.2 trillion because you're talking about a potential of up to 2.2 million, it could be higher than that. you're talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people from this. and so if we could hold that down as we're saying to 100,000, that's a horrible number. maybe even less. but to 100,000. we have between 100,000 and 200,000. we all together have done a very good job. >> that's just a lie from the president of the united states. it is not possible that he just heard that number today. that number was published by imperial college in mid-march

where it said that in absence of action, could lead to 2.2 million deaths in america. it's a number that has been cited by dr. birx. so it's not possible that the president heard it for the first time today. he also said that there were people -- he said we had a lot of people saying we shouldn't do anything, just ride it, ride it like a cowboy. there was nobody of a right mind saying we shouldn't do anything about coronavirus except donald trump who up till a month ago yesterday was saying it's going to go away. he said we have 15 cases. they're going to go to zero. he said we've got it under control. so that is the kind of nonsense, the kind of lies that the president does when he has these press conferences. now, there are a number of people, a number of you who rightfully feel that they don't want to hear these lies, that it's dangerous to people to hear them. while there is some good debate to be had as to whether or not we should be covering these things, i do want to give you a bit of the mechanics about how they do get covered. it's not just us and a camera and donald trump. but as you saw today, it was in the rose garden. sometimes it's inside the briefing room. today it was outside and there

are reporters there. one of those reporters was yamiche alcindor. you have seen her a lot on our air. she's the white house correspondent for pbs news hour. she's an msnbc political contributor. yamiche, i just have to say because i know you well. i know that you have zero interest in being part of the story. you are a reporter there throwget tthroo get the story from other people. it's an important piece of the story to explain why we have those reporters there and why they do what they do. so i want to play for our viewers an exchange you had with the president about his claim that new york doesn't need the 30,000 ventilators that governor andrew cuomo has called for. let's listen together. >> you said repeatedly that you think that some of the equipment that governors are requesting, they don't actually need. you said new york might need -- might not need 30,000 -- you said it on sean you, why don't act, why don't you act in a little more positive? it's always trying to get you,

get you, get you. that's why nobody trusts the media any more. >> how is that going to impact -- >> excuse me, that's why you used to work for the times, and now you work for somebody else. be nice. don't be threatening. don't be threatening. be nice. >> when journalists get up -- and you're a journalist, a fine journalists get up and ask questions that are so threatening -- >> i was quoting you directly from your interview with sean hannity. >> take a look at my interview. what i want to do is if there is something wrong, we have to get to the bottom of it. when i hear face masks go from 10,000 to 300,000 and they constantly need more, and the biggest man in the business is like, shocked -- he knows all about the virus, by the way. he's not surprised by that. he knows all about it. he shouldn't be surprised. he should say, well, that's standard because this is really a tough disease. this is really a tough virus to handle. okay, please, go ahead. >> mr. president, my second question -- my second question is --

>> thank you very much. >> mr. president, my second question -- >> please, please, that's enough. >> mr. president -- >> that's enough. that's not fair to your other reporters. >> all right. and there you see you had to give up your mic to somebody. yamiche, this is not new for you. it's not the first time the president has come at you. >> it's not, and i think today was an underscoring of the fact the president was really upset by the fact he had to backtrack on some of the misleading claims he's been making. as you said a month ago, he was telling people the cases were going to go away and disappear and now we're not going to be able to get back up and running until maybe june. so he's been telling people, the country, churches should be packed by easter sunday and today he had to admit -- had to extend the guidelines to april 30th. my question is he's been saying repeatedly that governors don't need the medical equipment they're requesting, specifically saying new york doesn't need 30 to 40,000 ventilators. of course, the president lashed

out, not to people that watched me. stay forward, stay focused, be steady and do the job you were there to do. for me it's a journalist, to hold presidents accountable and that's what i did today. >> so, there was more to the story. that's the ironic part. you tried to get a second question in. as an economic journalist your question was one after my own heart. the president didn't let you do that. so then jeremy diamond got a question. he's a cnn white house reporter. he took the mic and he gave it to you. let me just -- let me show -- i think we have that. we can show our viewers. >> new york is a bigger deal, but it's going to go also, but i have a feeling that a lot of the -- >> all right. i don't have that particular one, but that's what happened. jeremy gave you the mic so you could ask your second question. did that go better than the first round? >> it went a bit better than the first round which was the first

time the president lashed out at me and said i was trying to hold him accountable by quoting his words back to him. i had to say thank you to jeremy of cnn for giving me the opportunity to ask my second question. we know now that covering president trump sometimes is like a team sport. we have to have each other's back in the press corps and jeremy had my back. i appreciate that. my second question, what do you make of the idea the president has been saying over and over again that the economic impact of this, more people might die because of the economic impact than because of the virus itself. which health professionals are telling you that? i asked dr. fauci if he could weigh in. the president didn't directly answer me. he started repeating there would be a lot of mental health issues with the coronavirus, but he didn't say, yeah, health caro fish care officials are telling me if they can't go back to work because they have the virus. there is no evidence the president saying in that regard is true. >> yamiche, thank you for doing

what you do, as always. yamiche alcindor is the pbs hour white house journalist. new york city and new orleans are hit hard, but there are other areas of the country that are projecting dire statistics including the state of colorado. i want to ask my control room if they've got that map of the country and the places that have been hit hard. the office of colorado's governor released data this weakest mating that each person in colorado -- there, take a look at that. that's the map of the country. obviously that northeast corner, you can see new york is very heavily hit. you can see florida in the south, detroit, chicago, seattle, los angeles, southern california, new orleans. but start looking around middle of the country and start looking at colorado. colorado -- the disease is spreading for each person to as many as four people. joining me now is the colorado governor. he is standing by. jared, governor, thank you for being with us. this is, of course, a major

concern, right? we know that infectious diseases hit the cities first. they hit the places that have the biggest ports, the biggest airports, the largest number of people coming and going. but, in fact, the slow roll of this virus is headed towards other places and colorado, colorado gives us sort of a real sense of the fact that it's different from the major centers that this virus has hit so far. >> the world health organization has declared this a pandemic. i don't think there is anyplace on the globe you can go to escape it. we have visitors from all over the world that come to our high country, our world class ski resorts like vail and aspen. with them they brought the virus. we have many residents in the denver metro area that spend the weekend and brought those down. we have over 2300 confirm cases in colorado, like in many places, because of lack of testing, we estimate there are many thousand more diagnosed and have covid-19 in colorado as well. >> so, i want to do something.

the president talked about how he never heard about this imperial study that said the 2.2 million people would die if they did nothing. it's been around since since the middle of march. you have done something similar in colorado. you estimated deaths by june 1st without social distancing. according to that there could be 33,200 deaths if you go to 40% social distancing, it reduces it to 26,000, 50%. reduces it to 19,000. even at 60% social distancing, you're still predicting you could have more than 11,500 deaths by june 1st in colorado. i guess your point here is to tell people to take this seriously. >> it is. it also shows why, for instance, closing the bars and restaurants for in-house visits wasn't enough. you could get to about 50% social distancing through that, as you saw in the projections from our state epidemiologists. we still lost tens of thousands of lives. we and probably the rest of the country really need to be in

that 70 to 80% distancing range which is why you see states like ours and many others making sure people aren't going in to work unless they're absolutely part of that critical work force that keeps the state and the country going. >> as you get to 70, 80%, you really are talking about everybody home who doesn't have to be home to keep society functioning. >> and it's individual decisions to simply go out less. it's stay at home. so that simply means if you normally go out three or four times a day, get it down to one or two. just go out less. of course, walk through your neighborhood, walk your dog. you're allow today do that. do it less. only go out if you need to. when you are going out to the store, for instance, to pick something up, do i need to go twice a week or can i go once a week? these are the kind of individual responsibility questions that will determine the trajectory of this virus, not just here in colorado, but in the united states and the world. people really need to do everything they can to stay at home. and when they do go out, stay with their small group of who

they live with, your family, your house mates, and try not to interact with others, keeping them at distances of 6 to 8 feet at all times. >> the president said that had nothing been done there would be 2.2 million deaths in the united states. when he was asked who said nothing should be done, we had a lot of of people saying we shouldn't do anything, ride it like a cowboy. have you had anybody telling you do that's correct let it burn itself out? >> the 2.2 million would track the worst case scenario in colorado. if we did nothing, we would be talking tens of thousands, 30,000, 40,000 lives. thankfully we're not doing nothing. the nation is doing something. most states are doing something. so we hope to reduce that and make sure that we're able to gear up. we're just going through our plans and already have the army corps of engineers on the ground building additional hospital space, expanding our capacity to serve people. because we know that while some people lose their lives tragically with covid-19, many

can be saved of the one in ten or so that need medical support to help them make it through it. >> governor, we are with you in this. we hope you the greatest success. we want all of those estimates to be wrong, but we can't allow us to hope that they are wrong. governor jared pullis of colorado. we'll talk again, sir. we just received a statement from joe biden, presidential candidate, former president of the united states. it reads, in part, in the face of his failure to ensure -- talking about donald trump -- to ensure we are able to produce and distribute desperately needed equipment, the president stood in front of the american people and suggested that health care workers were not being honest about the current supply of masks. i have repeatedly called on president trump, who has been far too slow to use the defense production act to use that law as powers to expedite personal equipment including masks. the president has the power and responsibility to end the shortage of masks instead of making it happen. he's blaming and accusing the doctors and nurses and health care workers and hospitals.

joe biden goes on to say, i'm issuing this challenge to donald trump in order to avoid an escalation of the public health crisis we are facing, he must use the defense production act within the next 48 hours to direct the production and distribution of respirator masks, gloves, protective face shields and gowns to fill every supply request made by a governor to the federal government. he should do the same with respect to ventilators. he may think the risk is having too many. that would be a wonderful problem to have. that's, in part, the statement that joe biden has just sent us in response to what's happened today. i want to talk more about the issues facing our states as well as what the president has said tonight. joining me is dr. vin gupta, pulmonologist at the washington school of medicine and expert on global health policy and msnbc medical contributor. also joined by my old friend dr. irwin redletter, disaster preparedness and msnbc health policy analyst.

irwin, i want to start with you. it's sort of flabbergasting the way this went today. we showed our audience the part with yamiche. that's insignificant. we as journalists are meant to take this kind of nonsense. but the idea that the president took this imperial study that had come out in march, suggested he's never heard of it before and had he not done anything 2.2 million americans would die and that he was being told by people to do nothing and to just ride it cowboy, ride it like a cowboy. irwin, this is nonsensical, but it cost people their lives when the president comes up with stuff like this. >> yeah, so it's hard to know what to react to. just to get to the accusation that the governors are somehow misleading the country about what's needed, it's the president's department of health and human services that up until two weeks ago was saying that the country is going to need 3 billion, with a b, face masks to -- for the duration of this pandemic. there is so much wrong with what the president said and the

implications. listen, i'm very glad about the announcement that abbott has created a rapid test that's going to be very important. but we are so far behind, ali. we should have had this ability to do mass testing months ago. we are so far behind the 8-ball in terms of having the supplies we need for our hospitals, and that we've literally put the lives on the line of millions of health care workers. from doctors and nurses to the aides, people that work in the icus and so on. so it's really breathtaking. i don't know what the plan was in terms of having dr. fauci come out and say that we're probably going to have 100,000 to 200,000. that's not even the maximum number that has been estimated. in fact, the department of health and human services over a year ago did a study, did a practice run predicting a major pandemic, and virtually everything they said a long time ago was done in this

administration and they're acting as if they never heard of such a thing. it's hard to know where to begin to really understand the depth of misinformation and self aggrandizing the white house is doing. whatever it is, i think for the moment, forget the by gones and let's move forward and try to get as much done as possible. but one other thing i should say is that anybody that thinks that we're going to be out of this by the end of april needs to have a second look at what the data is telling us. it's not going to happen. and i don't think the president should be putting out even dates like that. many people think we're talking three, four, five months of trying to endure as much of a national policy of sheltering in place as we possibly can. >> vin gupta, you and i had a very, very helpful talk the other day about ventilators and the detail that goes into them. the president continues to resist the defense production act in getting these made. i understand they're complicated.

he keeps saying they're more complicated than cars. that's not true. a car is 30,000 parts on average, sourced from around the world. a ventilator has 15 parts. we turn things around to make things. what's the problem here? let's put ventilators aside for a second. you're welcome to answer that, but masks, gloves, other protective equipment, we can be using a national effort to manufacture the amount of those kinds of things that we need right now, can we not? >> ali, i'm going to be re-stating what i've been stating over and over again as dr. redletter has done multiple times as well, which is we are way behind. we are far behind on the 8-ball here. even though, you know, we're projecting out that this is going to be a peak outbreak in the middle of april. there isn't enough ppe for physicians, for nurses, respiratory therapists and icus

to sustain us all to april. capacity is going to be exceeded. ventilator shortages are going to come to the fore. to answer your question, of course we should have the defense production act already revved up, already producing these materials in anticipation of a worsening outbreak. i will say going back to ventilators, you know, we're having real conversations across the country. hospital leaders are having real conversations about rationing ventilators. these are actually happening. but then any time you hear the white house press breaief, it makes us feel we are overreacting. these are happening. plans being put into place, rationing access to ventilators is happening right now in the united states. let's wrestle with that. "the new york times" has done a lot of reporting on splitting ventilator usage amongst multiple patients. hey, by the way, as a pulmonologist, we aren't trained either medically or emotionally frankly, to manage two patients,

much less four on one ventilator. i can say this two nights ago. patients require individual care on a ventilator. they require maximum support. but it's unique to the individual. these realities need to be wrestled with instead of completely glossed over. >> vin, just tell me, what's the most urgent need here? because you're right, you put your finger on this. the president gives the impression that everybody who says we need more ventilators is overreacting to the need. he said we've got them. we don't want to send them all to one place because what happens if there's a surge somewhere else. he's vacillating between, we have enough, we're trying to manage where they go versus we don't have enough, but we don't need that many. >> we don't need the cadillac ventilator. we don't need the $40,000 ventilator that the president is referring to. and he's right, these are sophisticated machines. we can make use with -- as a former military officer, we have a ventilator called the 734

ventilator. it's a battery powered ventilator. it can sustain a patient on a battery. that takes a month. we can get 30,000 ventilators up and running like that in states that need it. that's what we need. we just need to get by. increase the national stockpile. worry about the bigger items down the road. let's get portable ventilators, the technology exists. ramp up the production like that. that's the lowest-hanging fruit here. >> thanks to both of you, dr. vin gupta and dr. irwin redletter. is msnbc contributors, both are doctors. when we continue bobby scott joins me. we're going to take a deeper look at the economy, one of president obama's top economic advisors and the credit unions. we'll be back after this. hot! hot!

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>> good morning to you. i'm craig melvin here. i'm reporting where a lot of you are. i came into contact with someone with covid-19. i'm here, but we're going to get enthuse this. the reality is this is the new reality for lots of folks all over this country. >> when we came on the air this time last week, it was not at

all clear that congress would pass a massive stimulus to keep the american economy afloat. and then they did. the $2 trillion package includes about $350 billion for small businesses, but to many lawmakers that's just a down payment on massive infusions of cash that are going to be needed this summer. join being me now is education labor committee chair bobby scott. congressman, thank you for being with us. look, this is one of those situations where business -- we learned this with the government shutdown, right? the average american doesn't have that much money extra sitting around for contingency. it would be terrific if they had six months or nine months like the finance books tell you. it's not the reality of life, and not for small business either. they don't have contingency spu funding for months and months of closure. tell us where you think we need to be and how we're going to get there? >> we've done a lot already. we gave assistance to state and local governments, ers small

businesses, big businesses, housing. as chair of education committee, i'm delighted to see we did something for k through 12 and colleges. they are suffering. they have no revenue coming in. they're trying to keep up their faculty and everything else. but the main benefit of the legislation is the money we send directly to families, $3,400 for a family of four. and a significant increase in unemployment compensation. one of the things that was pointed out some might actually make more on unemployment compensation with the $600 a week than they were working, that's a problem not of the bill. that's a problem of the federal minimum wage which hasn't gone up in a decade. we need to increase the minimum wage. but there is unfortunately a lack of urgency that's going on, and i think some of your guests have pointed out how difficult a situation we're in. there is an old adage, if you

don't change directions you're going to end up where you're headed. a week ago we had 200, now we have 2000. next ten days from now 20,000, ten days from that, 200,000. by the end of next month, what are we going to be, in the millions. we have to change directions and we have to take it seriously. when we try to put a happy face on stuff, people don't take it seriously. liberty university brought the students back. they're not taking it seriously. >> that's a major issue. one of the things that you've been contending with and that a lot of people want to contend with is because we are putting so much money into solving this necessary -- the problem we have to solve, there are a lot of people saying, why don't we change where the car is headed with respect to wage, with respect to paid leave, with respect to insurance companies -- insurance coverage for health care? there are a lot of people saying this might be the moment to actually make some directional change in the way prosperity is dealt with in america because this is laying bare the degree

to which people hang onto their prosperity by a thread. >> well, there's a lot we can do long range, but we are in a crisis now. several things we need to do, we need to establish osha regulations for people who are exposed to infectious disease. there has been an osha regulation floating around, potential regulation floating around for a decade. it's ready to go. all we have to do is promulgate it. and this administration won't move on it. you've got health care workers without an enforceable osha regulations. you've got first responders, we have tsa agents, people exposed to infectious disease that need protection. we need to expand the family and medical leave. by the time the bill left the -- by the time we enacted the bill, the family part of family leave was eliminated. we provided free vaccines and

free testing, but we need make sure that people get free treatment. if you get the disease and end up in the hospital, you talk about these ventilators, people are going to be surprised how big those bills are going to be. for those that get hit with that, the average family is going to be bankrupt unless we provide significant support for that. as chair of education and labor committee, i'm interested in making sure we support our education. we're trying to teach children that aren't coming to school. that's obviously a challenge, particularly for special ed students. student loans is a problem. that was a problem before this occurred. it's even more of a problem now as people are losing their paychecks. >> congressman, thanks for joining me. congressman bobby scott. joining me now is austin goolsbee, an economist and professor of economics at the university of chicago. he was also economic advisor to president obama. austin, you and i when we talk, we typically talk about the economy and we will do that

today. but i have to say you're a guy who worked in the white house and i think there are a lot of americans who are just stunned day after day by the fact that this is a white house in crisis. you worked at a white house in crisis, by the way, when we had the economic crisis. and the fact that people like yamiche and the rest of us have to constantly fact check and prove and disprove what's being said. to the congressman's point, when you paint a happy face on things, a lot of people don't take it seriously. this thing is moving across the country including to where you are in chicago. >> 100%. we are having a real outbreak and there is a fear that chicago, new orleans, detroit, a number of other large cities are going to be experiencing exactly what new york city is experiencing now. and you remember when we talked in the financial crisis that paul volker, may he rest in peace, his advice always was, when a crisis comes, the only asset you have is your credibility. and every day we've got the

president getting up saying falsehoods sometimes, and others outrageous insinuations and accusations. in the press conference, how are we not making more of the fact that he basically accused medical workers of stealing masks and other protective equipment and selling it? and he was saying that should be investigated. it was outrageous and insane. >> but it was a lucid insinuation. >> we need to stop that. >> he didn't, he didn't provide any guidance, any evidence. he just sort of said, you should look into this. you should look into it. this idea that someone is doing -- i've got information, i'm not going to give it to you. he has authority, someone stealing masks and re-selling them. bill barr said if anyone is gouging this and taking advantage of this, we'll come for you. that's the kind of nonsensical stuff that misdirects people. he should be giving proper

guidance about what's happening now. >> yes, 100%. it matters not just for people's health and thousands of people are going to die. it also matters for the economy. unless we get a handle on the spread of this virus, the economy cannot come back. all the stimulus in the world will not work if we cannot get a handle on the spread of this virus. and we have to have -- look, we need the president to succeed here. we can't -- this is beyond just a political game. we need the president to step up and grow into the job and start telling us factual information that is practical, that people can use. not encouraging people to do things that are going to spread the disease more, and not making up things so that now some people are going to start suspecting their medical providers of stealing medical equipment. i mean, it's crazy. >> austin, let's talk about the $2 trillion stimulus bill, some of the highlights of it.

$1200 which will go to most adults, $500 per child, unemployment insurance expanded $600 a week to sort of, you know, max out or double what people get on unemployment for four months. $100 billion for hospitals, $150 billion for state and local governments, 350 billion for small businesses, $500 billion for corporations. and as we learned from the last time around, we got some conditions on these things about it not going to buy back, stock buy backs and executive compensation. do you think this looks right for what we were able to achieve? >> mostly, look, i am especially like the stuff that's going to go to individuals and to small businesses. if they can get it out the door to prevent what we hope to be a short-term problem from morphing into a long-term solvency issue. as you start drifting into that $500 billion for big business, i got a little bit of qualms in there. there's 200 plus billion of

additional corporate tax cuts. we gave, for example, substantial tax incentives for restaurants and retailers to expand their physical facilities. okay, is that really what we should be doing right now? should we not have directed large amounts of the money to the expanding the test capacity and the production of tests that we could make hundreds of millions of tests instead of hundreds of thousands of tests? i think we're going to have a chance to come back and look at this. but as i used to say about the rescues during the financial crisis, if you're running into a burning hotel and you're throwing kids out the windows down into the pools to save their lives, that's not the moment to judge it like it's an olympic diving contest. look, there are certain -- >> right. >> -- quibbles you can have with unemployment insurance using

that as a vehicle. we're trying to get the money out as rapidly as possible in a way people can keep food on the table and not go bankrupt. and so i think on that front, the first order is good. >> austin, the president floated something and i want to just ask you about this. last year in the tax changes, people stopped being able to deduct certain food and entertainment expenses. usually you could deduct 50% of your food and entertainment expenses. the president talked about undoing that, making it allowed to be deductible again so companies, once we open up again, will encourage their employees to eat at restaurants. sounds interesting in that it sounds like it would benefit some of his own businesses and the president's corporate friends. does that make sense for small mom and pop restaurants that have been put out of business, the idea that you create a deduction out of people who can, for business purposes, use their food and facilities for entertainment and eating? >> look, help to the restaurant

sector could benefit. and we hope that the 300 plus billion dollars of small business assistance and forgivable loans that we put in the bill, hopefully a lot that of will go to restaurants. i totally fail to see -- this is kind of what i'm saying of the big corporate tax cuts. i just don't see that that trickle down is what's -- is in the cards right now. >> right. >> if you say -- we want to give tax cuts to people like donald trump before he was president so that they will go out to eat at restaurants more frequently? this to me is really approaching bonkers. and the fact that each time the president's asked, what should we do? how should we design a system to keep the economy from going into freefall, the first place he goes are to his businesses. he was calling for casinos to get a bailout.

really, casinos at a time like this, casinos would need a bailout? it doesn't make sense to me. and i wish that -- and i think there are people in the white house who are thinking harder about it. we're getting into the, what i call the trump policy protocol, which is let's not spend more time analyzing donald trump's policy ideas than he spent coming up with them. >> right. >> and we're already at the end of this sentence past that. >> you're right. he also wants cruise companies to get a piece of the bailout. there are no cruise companies headquartered in america. they are headquartered in panama, bermuda. they are ships are flagged in those places and lie beer i can't. he thinks they should reflag them so they can get a piece of the action as well. austin, thank you for joining us. coming up, the pandemic play book. i'm going to hear from a justice official who pushed for pandemic rules and was overruled by the white house. an assistant director frustrated

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well, the president and his administration were down playing the threat of coronavirus in january, u.s. intelligence agencies were sounding the alarms. despite their ominous warnings, president trump failed to take action that would have mitigated the spread of the virus in the united states. politico is reporting the administration opted not to use a pandemic play book created by the national security council after the ebola outbreak. it's a manual that lays out a

step-by-step plan to ensure proper government response during the next crisis. joining me now, frank figliuzzi, national security analyst, and katrina mulligan, former director of preparedness and response at the justice department. katrina, you tweeted out that that play book, of which i just spoke, that play book sat on my office shelf when i was a director of preparedness and resources in department of justice. in 2018 i joined pay group of civil service experts for emergency preparedness to push for a national level exercise on pandemic response and we were overruled by the white house. why, katrina? why would they overrule you on something like that? pandemic preparedness isn't actually the kind of thing that donald trump thinks that the fake news lame stream media is trying to target him on, so why wouldn't you have been able to go ahead with that? >> well, one of the reasons was because the outgoing obama administration, as has been reported previously, had a

senior level pandemic exercise as part of the transition process. and because some people in the white house felt, you know, we already did that, we already have explored the pandemic response, we don't really need to do anything more. and now it's interesting to hear the president saying, you know, nobody could have conceived of this. nobody could have thought this was going to happen because, in fact, the outgoing administration handed him an actual play book of exactly this type of thing happening and exactly what to do to respond to it effectively. he just hasn't used that playbook. >> and, frank, look, when you look at intelligence failures in the past, it is a combination of a failure of imagination and a failure to look at the intelligence that's actually there. again today we saw an example of donald trump saying for the first time i heard this number, 2.2 million people would have been killed if i didn't take action, that's an absolute lie. we know it's a provable lie. we know dr. birx, deborah birx who has been advising him, has

this information. it's a study that was published in "the new york times" in the middle of march. this is the same situation. he had intelligence that told him this was going to be a concern, frank. i had guests on my show in january and i have no intelligence telling me that this was going to be a concern. he chose to avoid this. >> yeah, those of us who served in the intelligence community knew that this day would eventually come. the day when the president's disdain for and ignorance of intelligence reporting would actually be at our own peril. personally, ali, i thought that might be in the form of ignoring an imminent terrorist attack or imminent cyberattack. it turns out it's even worse than that, a potential death toll and impact on all of us, because we know from clear reporting that as early as january he was getting intelligence agency reporting that there was a big problem coming out of china, and that it had actionable intelligence that needed to be acted on. he's chosen to ignore it and this is par for the course. he's chosen to ignore

intelligence community reporting that the saudi crown prince was involved in the murder of journalist from washington post. he's chosen to ignore that vladimir putin was to blame for the hacking and the interruption of our and messing with our presidential campaign in 2016. he's ignoring intelligence that north korea continues to develop a nuclear program. and now it's impacting all of us and he had a pandemic playbook on the shelf. it was pandemic for dummies. he's refused to pull that off the shelf and we're all suffering from it. >> katrina, ebola wasn't that long ago and it was highly contagious. i would say we executed quite well around ebola. there was a way of -- there were protocols around ebola patients and how to deal with things. was the playbook -- we use that term in the industry. it really was directions. >> absolutely it was directions. it was lessons learned, it was best practices. i mean, it basically laid out

almost exactly what you would have expected in terms of the order, the sequencing and the importance of certain decisions that have had to be made during this pandemic. and, you know, one of the things that the table-top exercise that did take place found was that we are not prepared for a pandemic response. the federal government needed to build more muscle memory. it needed to work out kinks that were well and clearly identified, which is why i and along with several other of my colleagues in the preparedness and response community pushed for a national level exercise on pandemics and we were unfortunately overruled by the white house. >> frank, is there any lesson learned now? because i definitely don't want a playbook for the next bad thing comes out of happening the way we've handled this. >> first, lesson number one, pay attention to your intelligence agencies and experts when they

tell you something bad is coming your way. number two, let's build our national stockpile up for the next one, but let's also understand that in the midst of all this intelligence reporting, the president sent almost 8 tons of medical supplies to china to help them. again, ignoring now frank, you're familiar from seeing him on-air, but catch him in a smithsonian docuseries with damian lewis. as the coronavirus pandemic continues to put people out of work, the help millions are going to need to help make ends meet. a number of banks and firms are starting to toughen their approval standards for new loans to consumers and small businesses. that means many people could find it hard to get credit just when they most need it. joining me to talk more about this is jim nussel, ceo of the

credit union national association, former director of the office of management and budget under president george w. bush, a former iowa congressman. jim, let's talk about this for a second. this is a harder time than 2008, 2009 was with respect to getting loans because there a lot of people who work in the gig economy, a part-time economy, as freelancers. the same thing happened. loan standards got higher. so when people most need money, they might be facing an environment in which they can least get it. >> yeah, and it's interesting because what we've done is we've done a survey of our credit unions across the country. got a little over 5,000 credit unions that are working as cooperative financial institutions. checking accounts, savings accounts, auto loans, home mortgages. they do these kinds of small dollar loans as well. and 93% of our credit unions have already made a change and an adjustment and are making

changes and modifications to their loan products and to their already established loans with credit union members. we've got 100 million credit union members across the country and they're already working out making modifications, and we have a number of those same credit unions that are already creatively looking at new ways to extend credit during this tough time, when you just had 3.3 million americans file for jobless benefits. so credit unions are stepping up. we kind of think of ourselves as the financial first responders during challenges like this. >> professor at uc irvine law school, author of two books that focus on banking and inequality, mersa, the goal is to not come through this crisis more unequal from a financial perspective and economic perspective than going into it. fair to say we went into this

crisis in america more unequal than we've ever been before? >> absolutely. and usually when there's a crisis like this, it hits the people at the bottom who are the most vulnerable the hardest. there's this old adage, when wall street gets a cold, harlem gets pneumonia. you can see the case in this scenario as well. a lot of people who are salaried, who have vacation homes, who have the income and the wealth to be able to self-quarantine, are going to do so. there's a lot of people, i mean, this is 40% to 50% of the population, who need their wage for food and shelter. and these are the people who are going to be hit the worst and hardest. small businesses, they're employers a lot of times, those businesses are also going to be hit. any time you have a recession, a depression, people recover differently. you still have 80% of the population that hasn't recovered from the last recession. and this is going to hit them even harder than the last one.

>> just before the coronavirus struck, 8 of 10 americans were living paycheck to paycheck. they had a paycheck, they had a job. now they're not quite so sure they've got a job, and there's a lot of that uncertainty that's permeating the entire economy. >> yeah, and look, mersa, one of the things that the certain governors and the federal government have said, a moratorium on evictions, on mortgage procedures on penalties for people who do that. but there are big banks in this country who took a lot of money from taxpayers last time around and they're all much more profitable than they were. have we learned from 2008 that the trick here is to figure out how to keep all those people going that jim is talking about? how to keep people who were just under the line going so that they don't fall further and we don't have a yet bigger problem with long-term unemployment,

long-term homelessness, long-term working poor? >> no, actually, i don't think we have a way -- we don't have the tools and the structure to actually do bottom-up support. what we have is federal reserve monetary policy and even fiscal stimulus. a lot of that is premised on banks being an intermediary and having the credit come down. credit unions sometimes do that, small banks do that. bigger banks, a lot of times those funds and the stimulus stays up in their balance sheets and doesn't ever trickle-down. we know trickle-down economics ever works but i don't think trickle-down monetary policy ever works and those are the buttons we keep pushing. it's not to say we shouldn't help repo markets and commercial paper, those are essential because we don't want them to lock up. stimulus checks, $1,200, how do you get that money to someone who's unbanked, doesn't have a bank in their town? how do you get them a physical check that's going to come in six to eight weeks, they have to

go to a check casher and pay 10% of that check to be able to use it? i don't think we have a structure that even understands. >> we actually do, though. >> i promise i am going to spend the next week -- i'm on at 3:00 every day, i'm going to spend the next week explaining to people, on the edges, people who are not banked, who didn't file a tax return in 2018 in 2019, whose banking information is not up to date, whose address is not up to date with the government, how to get that check. because if you do it right, you could get it within three weeks. as you point out, three weeks plus the two weeks we've been through too is long for some americans. thanks to both of you. we'll continue this discussion, jim and mersa. that does it for me tonight. coverage picks up tomorrow morning starting with "morning joe first look." join me every day, 3:00 p.m. eastern, monday to friday on msnbc. have yourself a safe evening. i should get a quote. do it. only pay for what you need.

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this sunday, overworked, overrun, overwhelmed. >> unprecedented situation. the country in a desperate fight against the coronavirus. >> in a war with very limited resources. >> a new york city hospital described as apocalyptic. >> all the patients in this room, all the people you see, they all have covid. >> more hot spots developing, from los angeles -- >> what we see in new york city, it's coming here. >> to louisiana. >> all that you have to do to save lives is stay home. >> plus the economy shuts down. >> this could create a much bigger problem tha