"coronavirus: into the red zone." you're about to see an incredible documentary from our partner, sky news, in london. it is comprehensive and it is compelling. sky news special correspondent stewart ramsay shows us the devastating impact of coronavirus on people in the hardest-hit city in the hardest-hit country in the world, bergamot, italy. more than 15,000 deaths so far in italy alone. now there are signs of a possible plateau in new infections. but this fight is far from over. sky news gets amazing access going inside overwhelmed hospital emergency wards and intensive care units. you'll hear the critical warning from those on the front lines. you'll hear what they want the rest of the world to heed. now we take you "into the red zone." >> isolation is the only antidote, and you feel very alone.

there are people everywhere, of course. but when you're in the red zone of infection and you want to stay well, you pray for this. emptiness. this is a journey into the center of the coronavirus epidemic. a journey to see how people cope with an illness you can't beat with medicine. an illness that's changing the entire world. killing people. destroying society, infrastructure, and business. what was normal doesn't

disanymore. what reassured us of human kind's advancement lies empty. as the virus spread west, italy shot above china, becoming the most-infected country in the world. in the wake of this disaster, the monuments to an all-conquering past are now just monuments. the present is all consuming. trying to protect the present is the only thing that matters. this is balanzani hospital in rome. it's the center of the disaster response effort. security is tight. they're prepared to talk to us, but bear in mind, even families aren't allowed in.

the country is dependant on the people who work here. they're planning the strategy for the whole of italy. we stop and meet the health boss who's coordinating the effort. franco lafrani is managing the emergency, trying to make sure the hospital isn't overwhelmed. in the car park, they're building triage tents. they're worried that this outbreak is going to spread even further. the infection rate here is manageable. but we've only been in this country a few hours. and even here there are people who are very sick.

ambulance teams in full protective suits bring the latest casualties for treatment. they pause while a coordinator decides which route they take. direct to the center of the infectious disease ward. the coronavirus cases aren't allowed through corridors the uninfected are using. two of the patients are clearly very ill. a third is much worse, sealed inside a plastic containment chamber. it's our first glimpse of the disease, or rather, a first view of its host who's suffering. the whole country is now in lockdown, but the red zone of infection is in the northern province of lombardi. milan is its capital.

it's a six or seven-hour drive north through the farmland, plains, and mountain ranges. there is traffic, but it's mainly trucks. and they're mainly heading south. police control convoys away from the red zone. lombardy is one of the richest areas of italy. its border with the outside world is the peo river. so we're now in amadi. so the majority -- this is like a hot spot of the coronavirus. concentrated here. milan, the home of style and high fashion, is deserted. this vibrant place is closed now.

the milanese know that just 45 minutes away, the virus is out of control. [ belling tolling ] at this stage, if the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the world is in this provence, then the absolute center of the epidemic is here in the town of bergamo. more people have died here than anywhere else, and they still are, every day. the warnings never stop. they're telling people to stay indoors. this is what a total lockdown looks like. it's quite scary. you don't really get used to it.

it is apocalyptic, and of course here they're calling it the apocalypse. it doesn't feel that life will ever be the same again. here they believe the only way to stop the virus is to shut everything. only essential shops are open. the man tasked with dealing with this crisis, while protecting his family and leading his community, is the mayor, giorgio gori. he imposed the lockdown. he's doing this to save his town, but he's unwittingly designing policies that all of europe are about to follow. >> how are you? >> he doesn't know it, but he's changing history. >> is your message to the outside world, if you like, that you have to lock down?

>> absolutely, yes. absolutely, yes. i have two daughters. they are studying in england. one in taunton, in college, the other in canterbury. she's doing a master. when i saw what the english government was thinking about this problem, i decided to bring them back. because i think that even if we are at center of the epidemic, probably -- they are probably more secure, sure, here than in england. because i don't understand why the government didn't decide for time in time, to protect the citizens. >> he's scared the world isn't listening.

he's trying to get us entry into the town's main hospital. it's not happened before. >> i try because i think that your work would be strong, would be good. >> the authorities said it couldn't happen. but the mayor's trying to get them to change their minds. he told us the world knows about the virus, but they don't know what it looks like when it hits. against the odds and many phone calls later, they agree. he was the first to impose a lockdown, and now he's the man who's letting the world see what this disease looks like. at giovanni hospital in bergamo is absolutely vast. 13,000 people a day pass through its doors. there's every specialist department you can imagine. it's rich.

it's well organized. but it's on its knees. and so are the staff. we're taken inside, past closed cafes and into its cavernous atrium. it's deadly quiet now. there are virtually no visitors anymore, just a few relatives waiting for news. they can't visit their family members, they just have to wait. there is only one focus here, trying to beat the virus. in a corner we set up a clean zone and change into protective clothes. there is a procedure you have to follow to get dressed correctly. but much more importantly, to get undressed safely. we practice this often, but every time you do it for real, you're nervous.

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and they're losing. >> i want to show you a room, a particular room. don't touch anything. >> we're in the middle of the emergency room now. we have down there on the left the shock room for very sick people. there are now four patients intubated. and you see many, many patients in the hallway because we don't have any room available.

there are now 15 patients wide receiver restarted with eight but there was not enough. we go up to 16. because it's a maximum capacity, a full capacity. you see they're all on ventilation with a helmet or with a ventilator. >> the staff are working flat out trying to keep these people from deteriorating further. they're trying to stop them from dying.

sheer numbers succumbing to the coronavirus overwhelming every hospital in italy. it isn't an intensive care unit, it's an machine ward, because the icu is full. people have only just arrived here, and they're in terrible shape. this killer pandemic is virtually out of control. the patients are literally

gasping for air. bla plastic bubbles staff are attempting to communicate through are attempting to equalize pressure in the lungs. it's not like flu. it is severe pneumonia, and it is killing hundreds each day. head of emergency admissions is roberto constantini. he's never seen anything like this before and is warning other countries, especially the united kingd kingdom, they will see it as well. >> people describing it like flu, it's worse than that. >> no, it's definitely not the thing. more pneumonia than flu. because it's a very severe pneumonia. so it's a massive, mass ive for every health system. because we see every day 50 to

60 peeatients who come sufferin from pneumonia and most of them are so severe, they need very high levels of oxygen. and so we have to reorganize our emergency room and our hospital in three levels of intensity. >> this is the main hospital in bergamo in lombardy province. it's one of the most advanced hospitals in europe. it is also the most hard hit of all the hospitals in italy, because the town is the center of the epidemic. this isn't a ward, this is a waiting room. wherever you go, people are on gurneys in corridors, in meeting rooms. they're everywhere. all the medical staff urge other nations to see what's happening and lock their nations down. right now. or face this.

many have friends in the uk health service. many have worked in britain's biggest hospitals. from there, panicked doctors and nurses are ringing italy hourly, desperate for information. >> what we suggest is shut down to stop all outbreak and not come in this kind of situation. but it's very, very difficult to manage. >> can i ask you personally what it's been like? >> i've never felt so stressed in my life. as a physician i'm quite used to intense moments and choices. people are critical and will die without any treatment, and you make the difference. but when you're at this point, you realize that you are not enough. and maybe all the -- we are

doing our best, but maybe is not enough now. >> the problem facing health services across the world is that when the infection curve goes up, it rockets. and all the resources, all the testing, all the supplies, are used up instantly. multiple hospitals, all at once. they're trying to develop a vaccine in the hospital labs. they're making progress. but it is still, in all likelihood, a long way off. >> they are studying -- two studies ongoing for three patients in this moment, okay, at bergamo hospital, okay? >> are 3 seeing any good results? is it too early? will it take a long -- >> it's too early. they are trying because the --

unfortunately we need more time, probably one month, two months, to get some results. >> bergamo wanted us to see this. to show what a catastrophic emergency nobody has experienced before actually looks like. and their message to us and everyone, really, is simple. get ready. >> well, yeah, i reckon this is probably one of the most modern, up-to-date hospitals i've ever seen. and it's utterly overwhelmed. utterly overwhelmed. they just cannot cope with the numbers of people that are needing intensive care treatment. and that's the difference. it's not -- it's using up so many resources. because people can be kept alive in intensive care, but it is so

intensive that it takes up huge amounts of resources, time, and people. and they've never, ever, ever thought they would have to have 60, 70, 80, 90 intensive care beds, plus hundreds of others, plus thousands more who have been sent home, who have coronavirus, but aren't needing this sort of care. if this sort of place can't cope, you know, some countries, britain as well, but some countries, it's just a disaster. a disaster. there's no way around it. >> the vast corridors are usually filled with relatives waiting to visit their loved ones. not anymore. the wards are full, but nobody can visit. the lockdown inside this hospital is as complete as the lockdown outside. to return to the outside world, we must remove our protective clothing for disposal.

it's possible the suits are carrying tiny particles of the virus, even though we've touched nothing and nobody. if putting it on is called donning, taking it off is called doffing. carefully, one must follow the same procedure in the same order every time. each piece of clothing removed is followed by more sanitizing. we don't want to infect ourselves, and we don't want to infect anyone else. you must follow the rules. everyone must follow the rules. there are no exceptions. with the fastest non-drowsy allergy relief and turning a half hearted yes, into an all in yes. allegra. live your life, not your allergies.

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hey, there, i'm joshua johnson at msnbc world headquarters in new york. we'll get back to "coronavirus: into the red zone" soon. prime minister boris johnson is in the hospital with covid-19 because his symptoms are not improving. also the world watched a rare televised address from queen elizabeth. the queen thanked frontline health care professionals and called on her nation to practice self-discipline and take care of one another. the uk has over 47,000 cases of coronavirus. the u.s. surgeon general says this week will be one of the hardest and saddest for americans in this fight against the pandemic, "a pearl harbor and 9/11 moment for our

country." doctors are dealing with 335,000 cases of covid-19. in the new york area the case load is over 122,000 with 4,200 deaths in the state. mayor de blasio warns the city could run out of ventilators by wednesday. the city's hospitals will need up to 1,500 more ventilators to get through the next week. "coronavirus: into the red zone" continues next on msnbc. de. one wash, stains are gone. daughter: slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide.

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trying to keep on top of the disaster that's hit the town of baerergamo falls to the mayor. in his distinct itch red fiat, he's become a distinctive presence on the street. he's doing this on purpose. he's trying to reassure everyone that while they may feel alone during the lockdown, they haven't been forgotten. he's the first mayor in the town's history to be elected to office for two terms in a row.

he's well respected here, and he's leading the response. working with businesses and the community alike, trying to keep everything going. >> so the people, their work, the cashiers, they are really protected. they have a plastic screen. >> these are all new screens, yeah? you're sort of learning as you're going along? >> they said at the beginning, first days, that people need to buy small things, two things. but in a short time, everybody needs to now become -- a big shop, you know, for the family, in order to not come every day.

>> the normal business of running bergamo has been suspended for now. only the mayor and his two closest members of staff work at the town's elegant offices. in bergamo, the only people allowed to gather always keeping apart are coming to the town hall to register the deaths of family members. there was there is a mournful silence everywhere. everyone is in shock, trying to compute what's just happened in a matter of weeks. >> it's important to understand the power of this kind of new enemy. and the fact that nobody has any defense against this. so it could be so dangerous because nobody ever -- there's

not a normal. >> how are communities going to get over this is difficult to predict. everything has changed. and every day there is more bad news for everyone to see. >> all the towns in lombardy have newspapers of their own. as you can imagine, they all have front-page news, 59 dead, 3,000 contagious. the remarkable thing also when you come to the obituary pages. there would usually be one or a half one. that's a double page. here is another double page. and here, another double page as well. a lot of the people are in their 70s and 80s. but there are some who are slightly younger.

certainly the impression you get, it is the much older who are very, very vulnerable indeed. but this is staggering when you think about it, how many pages are put aside for people who have died. towering over bergamo city, once the western most point of the venetian empire. it's borne witness to cass alcoholismic events for centuries. it's now at the heart of another. the virus storm swept through these beautiful ancient streets. this medieval town and its modern city is utterly locked

down. only a few venture out. everyone knows someone who has died or is ill. and everyone is scared.

>> the vast majority of those dying here are in the high-risk elderly group. serena and michaele are both 73. they came out to get some sun for the first time in days. they never leave each other, and they meet no one, and they're still scared. >> everyone is trying not to panic. everyone is trying to act

normal. but it's hard when nothing is normal now. this is the hardest hit when the virus first came. it's the most-hit city in the most-hit province in the most-hit country, italy, in europe. and widely regarded as one of the most dangerous places in the world at the moment because the virus so is virulent here. it isn't eliminately. looks it, but it's full of people, all self-isolating, all following the rules. very few people have come out onto the street. everyone we've spoken to has said this is what the uk should look like already. recent figures have indicated the death and infection rates are slowing. but in reality, you'd never know.

another ambulance passes. it's an absolute constant in the red zone. people are still being picked up all the time. you go past ambulances -- literally, if you stand still, an ambulance will pass you every five minutes, drivers in full hazmat suits. it's quite astounding. in this crisis, the local community is rallying to help the most vulnerable. urged on by the mayor, shop owners are trying to make sure that people who struggle to get out in normal times can at least get basic supplies brought to their homes. volunteers take food and water to the old and the already sick. sergio captaino has been appointed by the mayor as a chief coordinator of the many

charities and community groups doing their best for the most vulnerable in society. one of the problems that's risen because of the lockdown is what to do with the homeless. the priest who runs the hostel they usually stay in is in hospital with covid-19. father ricardo is looking after them while they work on getting new accommodation. what's helping bergamo is the willingness of people to trust the mayor and the council to give them what they need. >> how are people getting on? >> a stronger connection than before this disease. it is very good because we can give the answer immediately to the needs of people. like the food and the medicine. >> sergio meets local business

owner valentino. with trade on hold during the lockdown, he's delivering medicine to those who would simply die if they were infected. valentino lost his uncle to the virus this week. like so many, he wants to help. and like so many, he is broken inside. >> why do you volunteer to do this? why give up your time?

>> this area has a history of sending money and resources to disasters around the world. it's something they're very proud of. but disaster has come to them. and they didn't expect it. their slogan now is, bergamo for bergamo. dealing with this crisis is absolutely relentless. the mayor is working 20 hours a

day and is exhausted. he admits he's obsessed with covid-19 data. contacting the mayors of other towns and building a picture of the actual death rate here. he is convinced the official numbers are an underestimate, because too many deaths aren't being included. >> there isn't any official study on this, only my, you k w know, internal aircraft as they say, you know. >> the number of dead may actually be higher? >> yeah. >> why is that? >> in this moment, only people with hard symptoms are tested in the hospital. if you are with a high temperature in your home, with

cough, you are not detected. the doctor will say you stay at home and take this medicine. and if you breathe quite well, you don't need to be called -- bring -- go to the hospital. so you are not in the statistics. if you die in this condition, you are out of the -- you know, you are not considered died for coronavirus. >> we move to comona hospital, a town near to bergamo. the authorities are overwhelmed here as well. they've agreed that we can go

into their intensive care units. this is where the most sick are hanging on to life. the icu is on the brink of collapse. this is what it looks like when the virus overwhelming, and here in lombardy, it's overwhelming. these patients are critically ill. in all probability, they won't make it. the staff have no cure available to them. they're just trying to keep them alive.

every 13 to 16 hours they turn the patients over to relieve the pressure on the lungs. without doubt, she wouldn't survive without constant attention. the first, perhaps only good news for the team here, is this man. we couldn't approach him. he's still too weak. but he waved. he is recovering. after two weeks he is getting better. patients are highly contagious. where possible, they're observed from a distance. but most of the time that's impossible. nobody takes any risks. they wash and sanitize constantly.

gloves, masks, and protective clothes are regularly changed. in truth, these men and women are exhausted. the system is at breaking point, and they are as well. but they keep going. they aren't the front line in this war, they are the only line. >> we work 12 hours a day. only we are home for a few hours and come back here for the work. because we are here for the

patients. >> the only illnesses being treated in cromona hospital now are linked to the coronavirus, and it's spreading. >> we open the side to intensive care only yesterday and today's really full. >> in one day, it's full. >> in one day. less than one day, yes. >> emanuella is a neurosurgeon normally. now she's working in intensive care. clearly working in this environment and under such enormous pressure is taking its toll on the staff. but in way, what is worse is not only that more often than not they can't save their patients, it's that they also know that they are alone. the families can't see them. everyone here dies alone.

>> these people are alone. the families can't come in. >> this, i think it's one of the most difficult thing to manage also with our consciousness, with our emotions because see here, die people, without anybody, it's very bad. it's -- it's very difficult. >> she asked to send a message to the world. lock down. >> if you can see what happened in another country or another part of your country and wait to do something, i think now it's not more an option. maybe at the beginning we didn't know exactly what would be happen, but now we know what happen. it's -- you don't -- don't -- don't think that it's happening

here and it can't happen everywhere else. >> it will. >> because it will if you don't do anything to stop it. >> they've run out of room at the morgue, but they haven't run out of respect for the dead at the cramona hospital. the next batch of the lost waiting for cremation are laid out in the hospital chapel before collection. their families couldn't say good-bye. they're all in quarantine. in lombardi, they haven't run out of hope but they're struggling with pretty much everything else. all these towns caught in the center of the epidemic are struggling now but are all trying to pull together. trying to make it through. georgi lives in the old city.

we met for the final time. it's his 660th birthday. he's having a quick break. showed me around the historic central casquare. empty now, of course. >> bagamoore was the most westen city of the republic. >> he's haunted by the effects of this invisible enemy he can do so little to stop. across the world, parallels are being drawn with the greatest conflicts that have shaped us all. will any of us, will any nation, will italy ever be quite the same again? >> no. >> do you think things have changed forever? >> nobody of us will be the same. i -- i remember the tales of my father, my mother, concerned that they -- the wartime, they were kids, so, but they gave me

the idea of something that you cannot cancel of your life forever. and i think this more or less the same thing, there are no bones and no blood in the street, fortunately, but i think that the effect is quite similar. >> to war. >> to a war. yeah. a silent war with a lot of dead people and the same need to restart. >> perhaps some good can come of this. seems about the only positive anyone can take. as we chatted, i could sense his growing anguish. i could feel he didn't want to let his guard down. maybe affect people on a small level as well, maybe communities and towns are going to be closer than they were.

okay, guys. >> thank you very much for everything. yeah. in the end he needed time to think alone. ♪ the magnificent cemetery is receiving a new body every single hour. time is strictly allotted for the funerals of loved ones to take place and there's a huge backlog. they break the curfew to pay their last respects. some parts of italy, in particular lombardi, will never be the same again. this virus has changed a key element of what makes the very dna of family in italy tick.

the oldest generation. when the virus storm passes, significant parts of a whole generation will be gone. >> thank you to our partners at sky news london for this compelling journey "into the red zone." i'm ali velshi. good night. we're finally back out in our yard, but so are they. dandelions, lurking crabgrass and weak, thin grass. but scotts turf builder triple action changes everything.

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this sunday, why weren't re wedry. >> this is going to get worse before it gets better for sure. >> the government's sobering coronavirus projection. hundreds of thousands of americans dead under a best-case scenario. >> this will be probably the toughest week between this week and next week. >> cases and deaths soaring fastest in the u.s. as guideslines are ignored. >> i can tell by the curve and as it is today that not every american is following it. >> should there be a national stay-at-home orderer? >> i don't understand why that's not happening. >> health care workers overwhelmed. >> this is too much. i don't know how much longer i can do this. >> states competing with each

other for equipment. >> a madhouse out there. >> bidding on ebay with 50 other states bidding on a ventilator. >> surgeon general jerome adams. prime minister jasepi conte of italy. and author michael lewis. plus the next crisis. what happens when covid-19 hits rural hospitals that lack doctors, beds, and ventilators? and finally, scenes like this. the moments of love, selflessness, and heroism, that are keeping our spirits up in the face of a once in a century challenge. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt. former republican governor of north carolina, pat mccrory. and helin ex coe cooper, pentag correspondent for "the new york times." welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of "meet the pre press" with chuck todd.

>> good sunday morning. the week began with two national reckonings on the coronavirus. the first is where we're headed. as of this morning there are more than 300,000 confirmed cases in the united states and well over 8,000 deaths. the federal government is now acknowledging that in a best-case scenario, somewhere between 100,000 and 240,000 americans are likely to die from this virus. one point of comparison, that's more americans than died fighting in korea and vietnam combined. as you can see, the united states, that's the soaring red line in this graphic here, trails the world in flattening the pandemic's curve. perhaps the single most critical goal of all. which brings us to the second reckoning. the government's performance. like president trump insisting for weeks that the coronavirus was no worse than the flu. like the lack of testing. the big one. starting with the botched cdc test kits. like the government's inadequate stockpile of ventilators, gowns and other personal protective equipment. like the mixed messaging on face masks, the cdc recommending

them, the president refusing to wear one. like disbanding the national security council's pandemic team in 2018. t there are so many more including one we're all responsible for, the failure to follow safety guidelines. remember, those sobering death toll numbers hold only if everyone practices social distancing. and as we learned last week, that isn't happening everywhere. still, the bottom line is the government has been telling us it's been in control of the virus when, in fact, it is the virus which has been in control of us. >> we are afraid for our patients. we are afraid for our families. we are afraid for our lives. >> reporter: in new york and around the country -- >> we're a small rural hospital, we have no ventilators. >> reporter: -- medical advisers, first responders and state officials are pleading with the federal government for more help. >> every state is saying the same thing, i need help, i need assistance. >> reporter: but this week, the trump administration repeatedly sent governors the message, don't look to us first. >> the notion of the federal stockpile was it's supposed to be our stockpile, not supposed

to be states' stockpiles that they then use. >> reporter: by friday the hhs website describing the national stockpile had been altered. from saying it had enough supplies to respond to multiple large-scale emergencies simultaneously, to read iing it role is to supplement state and local supplies as a short-term buffer. >> i don't know if jared knows this, but it's called the united states of america. and the federal government, which has a stockpile, is supposed to be backstopping the states. >> reporter: nine governors are still declining to enact stay-at-home orders. and mr. trump is refusing to direct them to do so. despite recommendations from his own public health officials. >> i just don't understand why we're not doing that. we really should be. >> reporter: the government's advice has changed over time. americans were told not to wear masks. now the cdc is recommending they wear nonsurgical masks or face coverings in public. on friday the president

immediately made it clear he is not going to follow that guidance. >> you can do it, you don't have to do it. i'm choosing not to do it. >> reporter: americans were told only older people or those with compromised immune systems were at risk. in fact, 21% of deaths and nearly half of patients admitted to the icu have been americans under 65 according to early cdc data. americans were told testing was widely available. >> anybody that needs a test gets a test. they're there. >> reporter: even now, there have been just 1.6 million tests conducted nationwide. a fraction of what experts say is needed. in fact, for months the president played down the virus. misrepresenting the facts. >> one person coming in from china and we have it under control. it looks like by april, you know, in theory when if gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. >> reporter: this week he reversed course on his rosy projections while attempting to

claim -- >> 100,000 is -- is, according to modeling, a very low number. models show hundreds of thousands of people are going to die. you know what i want to do? i want to come way under the models. the professionals did the models. i was never involved in a model, but this kind of a model. >> and joining me now is the u.s. surgeon general, vice admiral jerome adams. admiral adams, welcome to "meet the press." and let me start with you're the surgeon general. give us your recommendation on face masks. >> well, it's important for america to understand that originally the cdc, the world health organization, and my office, all recommended against the public wearing face masks because the best available evidence at the time suggested that they were not impactful in preventing you from catching a disease if you were the individual wearer and you were healthy. we always recommended in people have symptoms they wear a face mask to prevent spreading disease to other folks.

here's what changed. we know 25%, some studies even more, of covid-19 is transmitted when you're asymptomatic or presymptomatic. the cdc now recommended people wear cloth face coverings out in public and can't be more than six feet away from each other. here are the important points really quickly, number one, make sure you're not substituting social distancing with face masks because the most important thing is still to stay away from people, make sure if you put on a face mask you don't touch your face and don't -- you wash your hands before you quut lutilize . number three, save the medical masks for the health care workers. excuse me. they need them, they absolutely need them to be able to respond. vy a video out where i made a cloth face mask out of a t-shirt. >> i saw it. yeah. >> and rubber bands. anyone can do this. we all need to do our part to get through this. >> i'm curious, i know you made the warning, saying specifically you don't want people to make a run on clinical or surgical masks. two questions i have on that front. number one, if you are caring

for somebody in the vulnerable age group, should that person be wearing a surgical mask? and second, if there were enough around the country, would that be the recommendation? and is it the only reason we're saying do homemade ones is we just don't have enough masks? >> well, the reason why we're saying make a homemade one is because that's effective in protecting you from me. remember, i'm wearing a mask to protect you, chuck, you're wearing a mask to protect me, that is what you need. we want to make sure we're saving the medical masks for the health care workers and still wouldn't recommend people wear an n-95 even if we have enough. when i am in a hospital, i have to get specially fit to wear an n-95. they're uncomfortable and frequently touch your face. taking care of a loved one who's older or have medical conditions, wash your hands frequently, do everything possible to prevent spreading disease to them and i encourage folks to consider wearing a cloth face covering when you're within six feet of that person so your droplets aren't going to them and you're not potentially spreading disease.

>> the president made it pretty clear he's not going to wear one. would you recommend people wearing one at work? >> that's -- that, again, so here's what you have to know. if you go to the cdc website, it say, number one, this is voluntary, we're asking people to think asbout doing it to protect their neighbors and family. number two, it's not a substitute for social distancing. if you're at work and six feet away from someone, there's a minimal chance you're going to spread disease. if you're in a work environment where you're within six feet, really close to someone, that's definitely something to consider. again, that's what the cdc guidelines actually say. they're based on the science. we always try to evolve our recommendations based on the best available science. >> right. admiral, i know you're not -- you're hesitant to back seat drive other officials and the calls they have to make. i'm very aware of that, but i am curious, if you were advising the nine governors that have not issued stay-at-home orders, what would you advise them to do? >> well, i would advise them to follow our 30 days to slow the spread guidelines.

i ran a state department of health. i've talked to many of these governors. here's what i say to them. here's what i would say to them right now. the next week is going to be our pearl harbor moment. it's going to be our 9/11 moment. it's going to be the hardest moment for many americans in their entire lives and we really need to understand that if we want to flatten the curve and get through to the other side, everyone needs to do their part. 90% of americans are doing their part even in the states where they haven't had a shelter in place. if you can't give us 30 days, governors, give us a week, give us what you can so we don't overwhelm our health care systems over this next week. and then let's reassess at that point. we want everyone to -- >> at a minimum. >> you have to be rosie the riveter, have to do your part. >> at a minimum, you wish every governor would issue at least one week? >> i wish every governor would encourage the people in their states to follow these guidelines for 30 das. that's what i want. i want them to do what they can within their states.

we know from a public health perspecti perspective, i ran a public health department, whether smoking or ownershpioids, there different rules and regulations in different states. just last week which was forever ago in corona time, a governor said it would be declaring war on the states to issue a federal quarantine. governors are rightly protective of their ability to determine what's best for their citizens. we want them to have the science to make the best recommendations. >> director of public health in ohio, she said this on march 13th, and admiral, it has been haunting me ever since. this is what she said, "on the front end of the pandemic you look a little bit like an ala alarmist, a little bit like a chicken little, the sky is falling and on the back end of a pandemic, you didn't do enough." are those words that we should all be living by, you may be his hasn hesitant right now if you're a led leader debating health versus the economy, hindsight you're going to wish you did more?

>> 20 years in public health, i know director acton, those words couldn't be truer. we're always telling people we'd rather prevent disease than treat disease. i tell people we're not going to treat or supply our way out of this problem, no magic bullet or magic cure. good old-fashioned public prevention, everyone coming together, practicing good hygiene, staying at home, doing things to prevent the spread of infectious disease. >> when are we going to have a website like was advertised a couple weeks ago where we can get a test, find out about these anti-bodies? sounds clear, we're never going to opre-open the economy fully until we gps the testing. where are we with testing, sir? >> 1 in 200 americans, where south korea was with their initial testing surge. we're seeing testing ramp up particularly with the abbott rapid test and we know it's never enough tests fast enough. i feel confident within the next two to four weeks we're going to

be where we want to be to do adequate surveillance and understand where the disease is, where it's high and low, and where -- and to have appropriate public health recommendations. what does re-opening look like? we want to make sure we're seeing cases go down for a good one to two weeks in places. we want to make sure we've got testing but want toalth infrastructure so when we identify a positive test, people can then follow up, isolate, follow up on their case contacts and make sure a single case doesn't turn into ten, 100, 1,000 cases. >> do you think by the end of april we'll be in a testing situation where we'll -- we're actually doing surveillance rather than just trying to, you know, play catch-up? >> we are doing surveillance in many many plaplaces. montana, for instance, actually has a higher testing rate than the average for the rest of the country. so we're doing surveillance in many places. we're going to get the antibody testing out there which is going to give us more information. i talked to admiral who's the

head of the testing task force, he said he feels within a month we'll have antibody testing more widely available, again, 100,000 tests being done per day. 50,000 abbott tests coming online. america, testing is becoming more and more available, but it still doesn't replace the fact we want everyone to act as if they have covid-19 right now, protect your neighbor, protect your loved ones. >> very quickly, admiral, the president mused about a one-day reprieve for easter sunday. i understand it from a -- from a, you know, hopeful scenario, would that be a public health mistake? >> the president is always hopeful. he's aspirational. and we're trying to give people the science. the science says right now this palm sunday, and i'm a catholic, i ordinarily would be getting ready for church right now, we need you to stay at home. this is going to be a hard week, gong to test our resolve. it's going to be the hardest week of our lives. i'm confident based on the numbers, washington, california, italy, spain, we can get through this, we will get through this. i know the american people will

do the right thing and stay at home. >> surgeon general jerome adams, thanks very much. stay healthy. stay clean. and i hope people do watch your video on how to make a mask. thanks for coming on. >> watch it, stay home, if you go out, use one of these. thank you, chuck. >> all right. thank you, sir. two governors who've taken very different steps in the face of the coronavirus pandemic. it's governor jay inslee of washington state, the first state to be hit hard. it's asa hutchison of arkansas, wouc one of the few governors who has not issued a stay-at-home order. gentlemen, welcome back to "meet the press" for both of you. governor hutchison, i want to start with you, you heard the surgeon general there, he's pleading, give him a week. he'd prefer if it were all 30 days of this month. your response to the surgeon general. >> great comments by the surgeon general in arkansas. we're doing everything that a surgeon general has outlined. plus more. for example, i applaud the recommendations on the mask.

yesterday we issued guidelines that if you go out, social distance, first of all, but bring a mask with you in case you get in environments you cannot have that six-feet spread. in arkansas we have a targeted approach that is very strict. we've closed bars, restaurants, schools, some of our park lodges. we're emphasizing the social distancing. and we will do more as we need to. let me give you an example why the masks are so important. by the way, we have had success in arkansas comparable to other states, in fact, beating and slowing the spread more than in some states that have actually had a stay-at-home order. you have stay-at-home order, tomorrow 600,000 arkansans will still go to work so it's more important the message, do your social distancing, don't gather in groups of more than ten people and bring a mask with you. i'm gong be folling to followin instruction. if i can't social distance, i'm

gong to have a mask on. we just had last night a breakout in one of our federal prisons here in arkansas that have ten inmates that tested positive and four guards. that's a federal facility, but stay-at-home doesn't help there. >> right. >> you got to have the mask and our state prison is producing masks we can utilize in our state prison environment. those are some of the things we're doing. we'll do more as we need to, listening to our public health officials. >> all right. governor inslee, it -- all week long dr. birx has basically used washington and california as examples of trying to show the country, look, this can work. this social distancing can work. it's hard, but look at what's happened in washington and california. i know you've said you're not out of the woods, but do you believe you have started to flatten this curve? >> yes. the evidence that dr. birx has pointed to repeatedly does demonstrate we have had some success flattening the curve. that has taken place because we acted relatively early.

we had a staged way of moving forward. we're one of the most aggressive stay-at-home stay healthy initiatives in the united states and i think this has -- reason to believe it's been demonstrably successful. and i'm glad we got on it relatively early while the president was saying that this was not a problem, i mean, it was a hoax, we were acting to save the lives of our citizens. in a number of states including california and washington state. it's pleasing to know that if you act aggressively, and if you realize even though you're looking okay today, it can bite you big-time tomorrow. i think that's one of the wisdoms. i think it would be good to have a national stay-at-home order. and the reason is is that even if washington gets on top of this fully, if another state doesn't, it could come back and come across our borders two months from now so this is important to have a national success, but i want to reiterate, we are a long ways from being out of the woods.

we have not got down to anywhere close to where we need to be to declare victory of this horrendous virus. >> what does -- governor inslee, i want to start you on this first. have you started the conversation about what metrics you'll be looking for to start lifting some of these stay-in-place orders? >> yes, but those are just only to begin to think about this because we have been so intent on making sure this is a successful stay-at-home order. so far, it has been. we have had huge compliance in our state. washingtonians are responding to the call. and we're really happy about that. but, yes, we are looking at the metrics. fortunately, we're very fortunate here in washington, we have the university of washington labs. some of the best in the world. they give us the metrics we need. we watch these like daily or hour hourly. we'll look at them on a mix. there isn't one number. there are many numbers we'll look at to see when we can come out of.

i extended it a month. just two days ago. to may 4th. so we're in a very vigorous -- one of the strongest, probably the strongest in the nation -- to may 4th at the moment. we have more work to do. >> governor hutchison, there was -- the ceo of the yuuniversy of arkansas for medical sciences, medical center there, said the state lost an order of 500 ventilators. essential lly got outbid by another state. is -- should you be in that situation? should you be forced to be bidding against -- is this -- is this something the federal government needs to step in and handle? >> well, it's difficult and we have had circumstances that we're trying to collect our ppe, our protective masks, and we've been outbid by another state after we had the order confirmed. so, yes, that has been challenging for us, but we recognize that the federal government has said we're your backstop, you've got to get out there and compete and it literally is a global jungle that we're competing in now. >> do you think that's the way

it should be? >> well -- >> do you think that's the way it should be? look, i know ideologically and philosophically the federal -- where a lot of people believe in federalism, but in a moment like this, should this be the case? states competing? >> no. there needs to be -- like to see a better way, but that's the reality in which we are. we put $75 million to do our procurement. and we'll work through this. the federal government has made it clear they are the backstop and if we need more ventilators, right now, they're going to be going to hotspots, knock and ne california. i've been assured if we get to the vote if we need ventilators in arkansas, they're going to be there. we're not waiting on that. we're going out in the marketpla marketplace, trying to buy ventilato ventilators. whether it should or shouldn't, that is where we are right now. let me come back, if i can, though, and i want to compliment governor inslee. i think we're watching his success. some of the things he's done there. but i would point out that even in the stay-at-home order that's one of the most stringent, as he

points out in washington state, you can still go buy your marijuana. and that's why it's important that we add to that social distancing and the masks that we're advocating, if you can't social distance, and that's why every state, whether we're procuring or whether we are determining what's best in our state to reduce the spread, we have to be able to have some flexibility making those decisions and that's what we're seeing. we're learning from each other. >> well, very quickly, governor hutchison, i want to give governor inslee a chance to respond to that. governor hutchison, anthony fauci has begged basically for a national stay-at-home order. does his -- does his basically begging for this at all have an impact on you to change your mind about this? >> he's just looking at the nation as a whole and as the surgeon general said, this week is critical and we are doing everything that their guidelines say. they mentioned the masks. we're leaning forward even more in that regard.

and so -- >> okay. >> -- we're all pulling together on this. but whenever you look at our state, i think governor fauci, dr. fauci, would be very pleased with the that we are beating some of our other states in reducing the spread and the commitment we have to working every day to accomplish that. >> all right. governor inslee, very quickly, is the relationship with the federal government getting better week by week ? >> look, we've had good conversations with the vice president, the cdc. this is ludicrous we don't have a national effort in this. to say we're a backup -- surgeon general alluded to pearl harbor. could you imagine if franklin delano roosevelt said, i'll be right behind you, connecticut, good luck building those battleships. look, we need a national mobilization of the manufacturing base of the united states as we'd started on december 8th, 1941. we need to nationally mobilize

using the defense procurement -- production act so we can get these companies instead of making cup holders start making visors, start making test kits. we don't have enough test kits by far in my state or anywhere in the united states. so we -- governors, republicans and democrats, have been urging the president to do what he should, which is if he wants to be a wartime president, be a wartime president. show some leadership. mobilize the industrial base in the united states. that's what we need. >> governor jay inslee, democrat from washington state, governor asa hutchison, republican from arkansas. thank you, both, for coming on, sharing your views. going to be a long fight here. good luck to both of you on the front lines there. when we come back, italy was the first european country hit hard by the kz kscoronavirus. i'm going to talk to italy's prime minister about what the united states can expect to see in the coming weeweeks. and as we go to our break, all morning we're going to try to show you some uplifting scenes beginning with

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welcome back. vice president mike pence said it last week, we have become the next italy. the first european country devastated by the coronavirus. on march 4th, italy closed its schools and universities. on march 8th, most of northern italy was placed on lockdown, and one day later, the lockdown was extended to the entire country, something we have not done yet here. did it work? since its number of new cases peaked on march 21st, italy has seen an unsteady but a decline nonetheless of new cases. so what can we in the united states learn from italy's experience? joining me now is italy's prime minister, giuseppe conte. mr. prime minister, welcome to "meet the press." let me simply start by asking how you and your citizens and your own loved ones are handling all this? this has been a very trying time. i know you just lost a bodyguard

to this deadly virus. >> unfortunately, unfortunately, it was terrible news. but let me say one thing first. we are suffering very much. more than 15,000 italian lives lost to their dear ones, to our society, to our nation. it's a devastating pain, and in this difficult times, i can openly say america, president trump, once more proven to be italy's true and loyal friends. i want to thank president trump who made us feel his support and presence. and i'm grateful to american people for this. about what is known today, i can say first of all, since the very beginning of the pandemic, italy has put public health first, and for this reason, we have adopted very strict measures that you mentioned.

>> yep. >> and adjusted them to the evolution of the infection. second, the political choices must be based on scientific evidence. third, it is crucial to implement decisions with full transparency. our liberal democracy are built on the contact we have with our own people, and we owe to them, through transparency in the same way we provide them with safety and security. this is the italian model. >> do you believe given what we have seen, and it looks like you have flattened your curve, do you believe that you have flattened the curve because of these tough measures you have taken? or do your scientific experts believe the virus just might be running its course? >> in this moment i cannot say when the lockdown will stop because we are following the suggestions of our scientists in the scientific community.

but you have to consider that italy has been the first country in europe that, of course, faced this pandemic. our response has not been perfect maybe, but we have acted the best of our knowledge. today, i see that our model is implemented and its validity as we're acknowledged by the w.h.o., and the results so far indicate that we are on the right path. therefore, the most important message to give to our citizens is stay home as much as possible. do not go out. and if you must leave your home, for example, to go to work or to buy food, always respect fellow people. we're asking our people a great sacrifice. i'm aware of it, but it's the only way to defeat the pandemic all together.

the more we respect the rules, the sooner we will get out. >> it sounds like there was a story in "the new york times" today that if with testing that you're hoping in your country that in order to re-open parts of the economy and re-opening parts of the country, that if you might be able to have, okay, if you have the antibody to the virus, you can work. and if you don't, you have to stay home. do you think that is in italy's future? >> we will work for that, but in this moment, we are all in the same battle. we are fighting the same powerful and invisible enemy. we are all on front line. if an outburst occurs, the virus will spread again and our efforts and sacrifice would be in vain. for this reason, it's crucial the cooperation of our democracy

and strategic international cooperation and it's strategic also that all conflicts around the world should stop. italy strongly supports the appeal made by the surgeon general of the united nations for a global cease-fire. it's time for all the parties in conflict stop fighting each other. unite against an enemy which won't make a difference and we've killed them all. >> mr. prime minister, i know these next couple sundays in particular are going to be really difficult to think of these empty churches on palm sunday and on easter, it's going to be difficult. my condolences, again, to you, and stay the fight. keep going. and keep flattening that curve. thanks for coming on. >> thank you very much. if i can say, i'm really proud to serve my amazing country. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. prime minister. when we come back, why wasn't the government ready for

this pandemic? the panel is next. and as we go to break, the reunion between my nbc news correspondent colleague janis mackey frayer and her 6-year-old son in china after being separated for seven weeks. ÷-c(s1 my age-related macular degeneration could lead to vision loss. so today i made a plan with my doctor, which includes preservision... because he said a multi- vitamin alone may not be enough. and it's my vision, my morning walk, my sunday drive, my grandson's beautiful face. only preservision areds2 contains the exact nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. it's how i see my life. because it's my vision... preservision. you should be mad they gave this guy a promotion. you should be mad at forced camaraderie. and you should be mad at tech that makes things worse.

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welcome back. the panel is joining us from their remote locations. we are practicing our social distancing.

nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt. the former republican governor of north carolina, pat mccrory. and helene cooper, pentagon correspondent for "the new york times." all right. i think we can best sum up the argument or debate this morning in particular, which is who's in charge. kasie hunt, i want to play the president on those cdc mask guidelines because in many ways the mixed messaging he sent here sort of sums up this back and forth between the feds and the state. take a listen. >> the cdc is advising the use of nonmedical cloth face covering as an additional voluntary public health measure. so it's voluntary. you don't have to do it. i don't think i'm going to be doing it. i think wearing a face mask as i greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, i don't know. somehow, i don't see it for myself. >> it's worth noting, by the way, the italian prime minister, before he started the interview, before he sat down, he actually was wearing a mask. all of his aides were wearing masks. we thought that was interesting there. kasie hunt, this seems to be

this push and pull here. the governors want the feds to take more control. and the president definitely doesn't want to do that. >> and even asa hutchinson in your conversation there, he's resisted that statewide stay-at-home order, as you pointed out, but he also said in that interview he was going to be wearing a mask and modeling the guidelines. >> right. >> the surgeon general just a minute earlier putting a face mask on on camera. clearly, our public health officials believe that this is a message that they want to send to people in the strongest possible terms. and this is, of course, an evolution. we were initially all told this wasn't necessary unless you were sick, but at this point, what the president is saying, chuck, we're seeing in any polling that's being done, we're seeing it in how people are responding. more people are listening to what this president has to say than have at all yet in his presidency because we are all tuned in trying to figure out how to make our way through this together. and so if he wants americans to

wear masks, he needs to say that very directly, and we all know, especially those of us who are trying to raise children, you have to model the behavior yourself to convince others to follow. >> yes. that's for sure. pat mccrory, as a former governor, as a former mayor, i know you're sympathetic to somebody above your pay grade trying to tell you how to run your state or run your city. i get that. but when is the point as a governor that you actually want the feds in charge? >> well, one thing i have been in the fog of war during hurricanes and tornadoes and winter storms where you're making life and death decisions while balancing the economy and also balancing the turf between not just the federal government and state government but if i think you examine every state, there's turf among the county health directors and the governor. and as you get closer to the people and the elected officials are closer to the people, there can be varying opinions. in the fog of war, you have mixed data. you have mixed communication. and you have evolving opinions

based upon that new data. that's contactually what's happening. the one thing i don't like that's happening is the blame game. you know, the washington governor mentioned pearl harbor. i think after pearl harbor occurred, the worst thing a governor could do is blame franklin roosevelt for pearl harbor. what you need to do is go, what do we need to do now? and be specific. and we all live in our lanes of responsibility, and some of those lanes overlap, and there are gray areas. this is not unusual in a fog of war. >> i'm just curious, though, governor, i want to follow up. i'm obsessed, i put that quote up for the surgeon general, the public health official from ohio, amy acton. are you surprised more politicians aren't erring on the side of caution here? it seems if you're wrong about this, boy, is that a bad way to be wrong. if you're wrong and you've been overly alarmist, well, nobody extra has died. but if you're wrong and you've underplayed, boy, you got a lot

to answer for. >> i had a theme during our crisis and hurricanes was be overprepared and hopefully be underwhelmed. and that i think should be the goal of every leader. there is this tremendous balance that we all have, and one thing about even the stay-at-home policy, i could say it almost discriminates against the blue-collar worker who is watching us do our job from long distance. the blue-collar worker can't stay at home to keep the manufacturing lines open of textile and rubber and cloth that we need in our hospitals right now, the delivery trucks, the grocery stores, the blue-collar worker is going, wait a minute, i don't get to stay at home. >> helene cooper, there's been a lot of chatter about the president ought to appoint, you know, ought to deputize, maybe it's a member of the joint chiefs, a general of maybe, you know, somebody of the status of a jim mattis, somebody like that, to basically become the procurement czar here. >> there has been a lot of that. as you know, at the pentagon, the reason people are saying to

do this, to appoint a general, is the pentagon, they specialize in planning. that's what they do all the time and in a wartime situation. it's just been so fascinating, though, chuck, seeing the american government response to this and just how much we have appeared to lag by a good ten days to two weeks this virus with everything that we're doing. the fact that you have the administration, the white house, finally coming on and saying we should be wearing face masks is something that many, many health officials say should have happened a month ago, and the fact you still don't have the president onboard with that, i think, is hugely significant. i'm not sure which kings and queens he thinks are coming to the white house that he needs to be worried about greeting with a face mask on, but the very idea that president trump is talking about appearance, that it won't look good for him to be seen wearing a face mask at a time when you have thousands upon thousands of americans dying and

so the numbers are looking like they're about to go shockingly higher i think says a lot about leadership in a time of crisis. >> very quickly, kasie hunt, i noticed we have 6.6 unemployment claims this week, and it seems like that number made nancy pelosi and mitch mcconnell suddenly say, oh, we should agree on the next round of spending. this is coming soon, isn't it? >> nancy pelosi earlier this week, chuck, was ready to start talking about infrastructure projects, jobs bills, essentially. the next phase of this. >> yeah. >> it only took 24 to 36 hours for her to suddenly turn around and say, you know what, actually, we are still in the emergency relief phase of this. and i think you are going to see congress try to act as quickly as possible in that vain. >> yeah, and it almost will be like a refill the coffers of what was promised with the first round, which we're still trying to get out, the small business loans, unemployment.

all week long, you're going to see a lot of technical problems on that front. i hope folks are patient on there. i got to leave it there. thank you, guys, for our shortened panel. coming up, author michael lewis on finding creative ways to fight the pandemic. first, the scene at jefferson hospital in philadelphia where health care workers had a message for all of us and they tried to do it with a smile. stick around. ♪ ♪ ♪all strength ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted we can do it♪ ♪all strength ♪no sweat you're clearly someone who takes care of yourself. so when it comes to screening for colon cancer, don't wait. because when caught early, it's more treatable. i'm cologuard. i'm noninvasive and detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages. tell me more. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk.

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welcome back. data download time. so far, coronavirus hot spots have primarily been urban areas like new york city, where there's already an icu bed shortage. but access to those beds is likely to get even more limited as the pandemic spreads inland to more rural areas with older populations. let's take new york city as our baseline. it's home to numerous top-rated hospitals, but there are still over a thousand 60-plus-year-old people for every 1 icu bed. the rest of the country would seem to be doing somewhat better with 1 icu bed for over 900 people. good news perhaps, but that's where the good news ends. check this out. only 47% of all u.s. counties have any icu beds at all. and only 29% of u.s. counties have 10 or more. there are 536 counties in the united states where 30% of the population in those counties is

over the age of 60, and of those, only 23% have any icu beds at all. you see where this is going. in counties we call aging farmlands, the most remote counties in the country, the numbers are even more dire. numbers are even more dire. there are 161 of those remote counties. in all, 161 counties, there are only six icu belds total. up until now, we don't know how covid-19 spreads in very rural environments where vast spaces make social distancing easier or a way of life in most cases but even as most eyes have been on new york city recently the virus has been spreading outside the metropolitan area. this week, there are 2300 counties with at least one case. when we come back, are there ways to fight the coronavirus that we're not yet thinking of? author michael lewis joins us next. is joins us next e. oh, that's a good one.

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welcome back. michael lewis has spent a career chronicling people who find creative ways to identify and solve problems and in his book "the fifth risk" he describes what happened in his view, the trump administration dumped down government too much to function properly. so that the trump administration, is the trump administration prepared to take all of this on during this current crisis. michael lewis joins us now, social distancing from berkeley, california. mr. lewis, welcome to "meet the press." a long time first time as far as

i'm concerned so i'm glad to have you on. >> good to see you, chuck. >> let me just start with the premise of your book, which you were looking at the transition, and i say, and i want to connect some dots here, i'm going to put up a screen grab here of all of the people that have been in charge of the department of homeland security in the trump administration. five different people. two have been senate confirmed. three actings. including the situation here. it feels as if, i know dhs wasn't a part of your book, but that amount, is that the definition of the fifth risk here sometimes, personnel? >> you know, the book, the starting point of the book is if you really have to think about the federal government as this, as a manager, of a portfolio of risks, right and many of them are catastrophic and you don't know what you will have to deal with but you know there are people in there who we're dealing with. and what is interesting, what caught my eye and the reason i wrote the book, we have this process to hand over the government, and it was actually, by law, the obama administration

was required to spend a great deal of time preparing to hand the government over to whoever succeeded. and obama took it really seriously because he realized, because bush had handed the government over so well to him, he thought. and trump, on his side, had built this enterprise of 500 people to roll in to the department of homeland security, the department of agriculture, whatever, and he fired it, the day after the election. so the transition never happened. so there was like this, that is the beginning of this whole story, the beginning of our response to the pandemic, the knowledge of how you dealt with say an ebola outbreak was never transferred to the trump administration. and it's, i think that if you, when people look back and tell the story of this crisis, they will start there. >> there's no doubt they will. look, i want to pivot a little bit, you just did a podcast and you noted, we're going to learn a lot about our society during this pandemic that is probably

going to surface problems we didn't know we needed to solve. what are a few that you're seeing now that you think we need to be keeping an eye on? >> you are talking about like risks we should be terrified of? you know -- >> yes. >> well, look, this in some ways was not, the fifth risk in my mind was the risk that you weren't really, that you weren't really, didn't have top of mind. and i came to the idea because i walked into the department of energy, and got the briefing from the chief risk officer that the trump administration had not bothered to get and i asked what are the top five things you're worried about in the department of energy and he said look, there are a lot of really smart people working on things like preventing a nuclear weppen from not going off and preventing the electric grid from coming under attack, and three, north korea getting a nuclear weapon to

deliver to the west coast. one thing after another. and there were steps being taken to prevent these bad things from happens. and now, the question is, across an administration, that's being run by a person who is largely indifferent to it, to what extent are, is this portfolio of risks, you know, more likely to happen? and the thing that worried me, and the thing that got me interested in writing the book, in the first place, was if something actually happens, i don't know what it is, what's going to happen, but when it happens, they're not going to be prepared to deal with it. and now, we know, now we know it happened. so we're now in the land of the second best solutions because we had someone who neglected the instrument, the tool for dealing with a crisis. >> look, we're going to end up having, something will change in our society based on on this, and one of the things we're learning about who is essential,

and we're finding out the truck drivers are a lot more essential than some of us, the person who stocks the shelves, a lot more essential, and do you see a reckoning on the economic front that sort of rights those wrongs, in time? >> you know, the first thing that might come out of this, is an appreciation of the federal government, of what it does. it is, the basic job is to keep us safe, and if we don't pay attention to how it is run, we will find ourselves in this situation all over again, so i think, i think that's the big thing. i think that's the big thing that comes out of it. >> all right. michael, it looks like i have to leave it there. always wish i had more time with you. i will find a way to get more time with you down the road. thank you. and thank you to all of you watching today. please continue to practice that social distancing. doing everything you can to keep your family and neighbors safe. the sooner we do, it the sooner we will get through this. we'll be back next week, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

good evening, i'm ali developshi, thank you for joining us for this special report, coronavirus into the red zone. you're about to see an incredible documentary from our partner, sky news, in london, it is comprehensive, and it is compelling. sky news special correspondent stuart ramsey shows us the devastating impact of coronavirus on the people of the hardest-hit city in the hardest-hit country in the world in italy. more than 50,000 deaths so far in italy alone. and now there are signs of a possible plateau in new infections. but this fight is far from over. sky news gets amazing access,