with -- about 17 states that are in our more rural areas, specifically around our indigenous people and tribal nations. it was a very reassuring call. we are testing across the country. we do have about 63% of states that have less than 10% positive, despite significant testing. and within the indigenous peoples and tribal nations, they're seeing the same thing we're seeing across the nation. increase issues among those with comorbidities and those with elderlies and issues in nursing homes. many states are still capable of doing full contact tracing, so they've been doing contact tracing from nursing home outbreaks and other outbreaks. it really gives us clear impression of no matter what we do in the future, we need to ensure that nursing homes have

sentinel surveillance. what i do mean by that? that we're actively testing in nursing homes the residents and workers at all times. that's how we saw this at the beginning. that's what we saw in washington state and what we're seeing in many of the states that have very low case attack rates. the other thing i want to leave you with, we simply know how desperate and difficult the situation has been in new york over the last few weeks. we've been telling and talking about how this would be the week that would be most difficult because of the large proportion of cases that are coming from the new york metro area. what's been encouraging to us, those early states outside of washington and california, which still have extraordinarily low attack rates because of their level of mitigation, all of the new areas that are having new increase in cases, we talked about them yesterday, washington and baltimore and the

philadelphia metro area. that includes camden, wilmington and the counties around philadelphia. we're seeing that the case numbers, what we'll get to as far as attack rates. we talked about 7 in 1,000 in new york that are being measured. these are coming in, even with their progress in the 1 per 2 per thousand range. showing when you start mitigation early, it has a very different impact. all of this data is coming together, the testing rates, the zero positivity, the age groups who really needs hospitalization, icu, the innovative pieces coming from -- we heard a great report from louisiana this morning on the phone call where they talked about a minimum now of 40% of people coming off of ventilators alive and leaving the hospital. this is very encouraging to us. it really shows amazing progress

clinically in each of these hospitals and there are real lessons of what we're sharing across hospitals. but really shows us that the original outbreaks were very large. but the newer ones that we talk about in washington and philadelphia and baltimore, it looks like their attack rates and attack rates in denver and some of these other states that we have been talking about are much lower than new york and new jersey. this gives us hope about understanding how to integrate this informational together. not dealing with a model, but the real live cases occurring and understanding how to move forward together to really have a different future. so thank you very much. >> thank you very much, mr. vice president. so just reflecting about what we've been doing over the last few days. remember last weekend, when we made the forecast that this would be a bad week. as i mentioned yesterday and the

day before, it is in the sense of deaths a bad week. in fact, every day there seems to be a record of number of deaths compared to the day before. in fact, new york today had, again, another record of i think the city itself was about 820 plus deaths. but, what we were predicting with the increase and the real adherence to the physical separation, the guidelines that the vice president talks about, the physical separation. at the same time as we're seeing the increase in deaths, we're seeing a rather dramatic decrease in the need for hospitalizations. yesterday was something like 200 hospitalizations. it's been as high as 1400 at any given time. so that is going in the right direction. i say that, and i always remind myself when i say that, that means that what we are doing is working. and therefore, we need to continue to do it. i know i sound like a broken

record. that's good. i want to sound like a broken record. let's just keep doing it. i get questions a lot. dr. birx and i, about these numbers, the projections from 100,000 to 200,000, now down to 60,000. that's a sign when, as i keep saying, you take the data you have and you reinsert it into the model, the model modifies. the data is real, model is hypothesis. so that's what i think we're seeing. the other thing that is just broad, general good news from a scientific stand point, there are a lot of candidate potential therapeutics that are going into clinical trials now that we're sponsoring at the nih. the kinds of clinical trials that will give us the answer, are they safe, are they effective? and just what is the capability of using them under what circumstances. as treatment, in early disease,

late disease? so as the time goes by and we have the public health measures to contain this, we're doing a lot from a scientific stand point so when we do get to next year, next fall, next winter, hopefully we'll have something that we can offer in addition to the very important public health measures. so i'll be happy to answer questions later. >> mr. secretary? >> mr. vice president, thank you. >> good evening. we have been listening to the white house coronavirus briefing. i'm ari melber anchoring our special coverage. we'll give you several updates here. we played part of the briefing. we cut out of it to fact check a claim by the president. we went back into it and now we are out of it. the president argued that there is better testing now, that it's not necessary to start reopening the country yet. but we could be getting there soon. health officials, though, are expressing a type of cautious

optimism. they say the mitigation efforts are reducing the projected death toll. although we have seen some very, very tough numbers this week. that was to some degree expected. dr. anthony fauci said "what we are doing is working." that is his medical view of flattening the curve. here are the facts. over 450,000 americans infected by the coronavirus. a death toll that tops 16,456 cases. i want to go right to our special guest tonigs tonight. thank you all. doctor, something we tangled with earlier was the issue of testing. the president making a claim that our experts said was misleading at best about the state of the united states' testing. then in hearing from dr. birx, just reading off the new numbers, talking about 118,000 tests now a day. an improvement. walk us through your factual

analysis. >> yes. so just by straight up data and facts, we are in fact testing a lot more, which is what we have been asking for for a long, long time. we're still not where we need to be, though. but we are testing a lot more in terms of numbers. i want to point out a key phrase that dr. fauci said, which was the data is real, the model is hypothetical. so yeah, we're projecting now about 60,000 deaths, which is still astronomically high, but initial projections were up to 200,000. but when you put in the data, which is based in real time, based on what we're doing, the physical distancing, it seems to be working. and so, again, to emphasize what he said, the result -- that means we need to keep on doing what we're doing. we cannot let up right now. >> congresswoman bass, take a listen to the president here when asked about the nationwide testing system and whether that would actually be the best thing to get the country on track for

reopening. here is what he said. >> how can the administration discuss the possibility of reopening the country when the administration does not have an adequate nationwide testing system for this virus? don't you need a nationwide testing system for the virus before you reopen -- >> we have right now the best testing system in the world. >> don't you need that to make sure people are safe to go back to work? >> we want to have it, and we're going to see if we have it. do you need it? no. is it a nice thing to do? yes. we're talking 325 million people. and that's not going to happen, as you can imagine. >> congresswoman? >> well, i mean, i think we are all familiar with the president making thinging up. so to say we have a great testing system when everybody knows we don't. the disparity in rates we have seen out of the major cities of the african-american population

is just an example of that. i think that fauci's comment that what we are doing is working, and we need to keep doing it, i think was very clear. we know that what the president wants to do, because he's very worried about the economy, because he's very worried about his re-election, he wants us back at work. and i think that the message that is being sent to him is that would be a disaster if we were to do that. we need much more testing, and in my opinion, to address the disproportionate number of african-americans, we need concentrated and focused testing where we see the death rates being so high. >> yeah, you bring that up, congresswoman. we were covering that earlier today. mayor de blasio spotlighting these numbers, that african-american and la teatino for -- minorities in new york are twice as likely to die from this

virus. what do we do to try to address that in the middle of this larger crisis? >> well, we have to address the crisis at hand. i think it is completely unacceptable to say that because, you know, african-americans and latinos have all of these underlying issues, that then there's nothing that could be done now. i worked in the medical field at the beginning of the aids crisis. i remember this. i've seen this before. obviously this is different because it's much more widespread. but you need to pay attention to populations. right now, the only thing we know is anecdotal information about the death rate. we need the cdc to, number one, collect the information, but also to disseminate it. we need to make sure that african-americans, when they go to the hospital, they get early treatment. i can answer chubsolutely guesst happens is people are sent home, they get sick, and then they go back and need a ventilator. so there's a lot of education that needs to be done.

but i think it is very, very important that we not say that there's just all these other issues, and we can't solve it right now. >> ben, you have done a lot of work in the policy process, national security, how the white house should function. but also in communication, in writing, and how you talk about and express the ideas here that the country needles to move forward. with that in mind, i want to touch on something that everyone knows is controversial. holding these daily briefings where doctors and experts can provide updates that are useful, but with a president who is documented to be the biggest liar in the history of the white house. i don't say that to be mean, it's just what he is. and so ben, listen to "the wall street journal"'s editorial page, famously pro-tumrump, makg waves, by saying the last three weeks, president trump seems to have concluded they could be a

showcase for him, urging him to change course saying the public will judge him by the results, not by how well he said he did. pretty strong indictment from a pro-trump wing of that paper. >> well, absolutely. and there are a couple of things to measure here, which is how useful is the briefing itself? and is it just a vehicle for him to provide at times disinformation? and the danger here is that disinformation can harm people, because when he's down played this virus in the past, it's contributed to people not taking the social distancing seriously. what i think needs to happen here, you look at the briefing today, dr. fauci is giving useful information and what he's underscoring is that people need to stay home. they need to do what's working. president trump is always trying to put the best light on this. we're sitting here talking just days before easter. it was only a couple of weeks ago he was saying people should be in churches by easter.

so clearly what i think should happen is that he should get out of the way. if there are going to be daily briefings, let them be done by expert whols can give the american people the information they need to be safe rather than have them be in this political theater that is mainly about president trump trying to cast himself in the best possible light. and in doing so, sometimes providing not just lying, but dangerous disinformation that can put people at risk. >> yeah. dr. roy, to that very point, given what you do, which is try to both treat people but make sure they have the medical facts to make the right decisions with whatever challenge they face, the president just completely contradicts himself within his own briefings. take a look. >> we're going to put a hold on money spent to the w.h.o., we're going to put a very powerful hold on it. i'm not saying we're going to do it, but we're going to look at it.

we're going to investigate it and look at it. i think a lot of the media has been very fair. i think people are pulling together. i wish we had a fair media in this country, and we really don't. i don't believe you need 40,000 or 30,000 ventilators. >> you said repeatedly that you think some of the equipment that governors are requesting they don't need. you said new york -- >> i never said that. >> you said it on sean hannity's fox news. >> when you look at this, doctor, do you think there needs to be a public health warning for the president's part of the briefings? >> ari, i've told you this before, as a physician, as a medical professional, our agenda is just one, it's the health and safety of the public. i'm not going to get into politics. i will say that when a president speaks -- says things that are incorrect, lives are at stake. i'll give you a specific example. i told you this before, i received calls and text in real

time every day from my medical professionals. one of my colleagues in alabama right now, a physician, said that she's in her parent's house. they had some contractors over, but and she just asked them, can you wear masks? and can you try to maintain distance? and they walked out. they refused to wear masks and walked out and said this is just a hoax. we're not going to work under these conditions. these same people may very well get infected and my other medical colleagues in alabama are going to have to take care of them. this is a realtime problem. misinformation is harmful to people who are listening to him. >> congresswoman, i wanted to bring you in. but i wanted to bring you in and ask you, this is the part that is so striking. we are here in the middle of the trump era, heading into what is defined general action between him and vice president biden and your party. it would seem after years of back and forth about how much it is true that there is problems

with the press and there are some, or it is true that there are problems with the elite and the establishment, and there are some. but the notion that you should dismiss news, facts and science seems to be giving way in this trump era to a really tragic and sad reminder to everyone why you need facts. i mean, we're looking at for medical experts and scientists, and yes, journalists, take me out of it, i'll say "new york times," washington post, "the new england journal of medicine," we need these facts to get through this. >> i think that we have gone through 3 1/2 years of listening to lies, just made-up information every day. but now because we're in the middle of this pandemic, it shows the consequences of that type of behavior that we have grown accustomed to. you have another network that promotes cures that are nonexistent. convincing people that this is really not that bad, and as a

matter of fact, we're on the road to recovery, actually having people on the air saying they were cured by this medication that the president just a few minutes ago said that they're ordering massive amounts, and it hasn't even been proven. so this now hits everyone. the danger and the threat of his lies hits everyone. and i understand the doctor can't be political. but you know what? this is all about politics. and it just shows that this presidency, if we were to face another four years, the impact that it's had on our democracy and now on the health of americans is just incomprehensible. >> ben? >> i think there's so many things that are striking about the approach from president trump. as someone who's been there before and thought about what a role the president is in a crisis like this, one of the striking things to me is the complete lack of empathy --

you look at the role of the president versus the experts. the president is there to empathize with the american people, to make sure they're getting the right information, to make them feel like they can get through this together. and at the same time, the president is there to amplify the experts who provide life-saving information. president trump gets this backwards. he sees this as only a vehicle to get through the next political cycle. what does he need to do to have the best possible 24 hours? who does he need to attack and blame? if it's disinformation that can get him through that, he will do that. if it's lies, he will do that. and it is incredibly dangerous. it's also the question of, what is he not doing? that's such a focus on these briefings and performance. is he coordinating with foreign leaders? is he working with the w.h.o. instead of scapegoating it for his own failure to take this seriously? is he working with other governments, including frankly china, that we have to work with, to get through not just a global pandemic, or is he call

thing the china virus? we are seeing in very real time the consequence of having a president who is dishonest, and sees everything through the prism of his own complete call interest, and not the job that he's supposed to do, which is to serve the interest of all of the american people. >> ari, can i just say something? because ben rhodes was there when the obama administration faced a potential pandemic with ebola and he saw the way the president stood up and mobilized the entire world. the w.h.o. had predicted a million people were going to die of ebola. now, one person is too many, but 11 folks died, and it never became a problem in the united states. they were able to contain it. they were able to respond. so he knows the difference. >> all fair points and really appreciate our experts hanging with us and walking us through it. thanks to each of you. coming up, new york reporting its highest single day

death toll yet from this virus, as they may be getting past the peak. leaders wrestling with what normalcy might look like, and we have a governor with us when we come back. >> it's been a crazy week. the call volume is 6500 or better. last night it was 6900 again. there's been a lot of people dying. i'm getting phone calls from crews that are doing four, five, s cardiac arrests, people dying. in nearly 100 years serving the military community, we've seen you go through tough times and every time, you've shown us, you're much tougher your heart, courage and commitment has always inspired us and now it's no different so, we're here with financial strength, stability and experience you can depend on and the online tools you need because you have always set the highest standard and reaching that standard is what we're made for

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there are some glimmers of hope, particularly when you look at the situation in new york where the number of hospitalizations, requirements for intensive care and intubation, over the last few days have actually stabilize and started to come down. the mitigation, the physical separation that we have initiated is starting to have a real effect now. >> is that the flattening of the curve that everybody so famously talks about? in new york, are we seeing the flattening of the curve in this first initial hot spot? >> you know, i don't want to jump the gun on that, savannah. but i think that is the case. >> dr. fauci expressing his hope the curve may be flattening. we're seeing new york, new jersey, and connecticut facing a lot of problems, over 220,000 cases, over 9,000 deaths. the number of virus related

deaths in new york was the highest it's been. academic researchers say that the deaths will start to decrease after today. new jersey reporting 196 deaths today, a drop from yesterday. researchers say the deaths will peak on april 12th. that would just be three days away. connecticut also in this region, reporting 45 new deaths today, less than the high two days ago. the same group of researchers project the peak there won't come until the 22nd, two weeks away. i'm joined now by governor ned lamont of connecticut. thanks for making the time. how do all those projections relate to what you're seeing? >> ari, i think the key metric is hospitalization. we wanted to make sure our hospitals were not overwhelmed and really over the last week, hospitalizations are going down. fairfield county, which is southern connecticut, part of

that new york metro area, we had one fewer persons hospitalized today than a day ago. so that is not a trend, but it gives indications that we may be on the backside of this over a period of time. but what i worry about now, restaurant and bar owners are beginning to sing "happy days are here again" and we're going to have to work hard to keep social distancing in place for the near term any way. >> one other stat we were mentioning is in new york, which is the same neighborhood as you. if new york were a country, it would have the most coronavirus cases and deaths anywhere except the united states, which it's a part of, which gives us a sense of the massive scale. some of that is because these are very dense population areas, millions of people on a tiny island. then there's the pushback to how long the precautions are needed. take a listen to the president's own attorney general on fox news. >> i think we have to be very

careful to make sure this is -- that the draconian measures being adopted are fully justified and there are not alternative ways of protecting people. i think, you know, when this period of time, at the end of april expires, i think we have to allow people to adapt more than we have, and not just tell people to go home and hide under the bed, but allow them to use other ways, social distancing and other means, to protect themselves. >> your response? >> my response is i think i'm going to listen to dr. fauci and the health care experts and not the lawyers in terms of how fast we can get our economy moving again. >> you know, governor, that hurts my feelings when you say you don't want to listen to lawyers. >> to some extent. >> go ahead. >> i was just going to say that

states like connecticut and new york, we have the dense metropolitan areas where the hospitals are close to getting overwhelmed. and you have the rural areas where they have not been infected as much yet. so even in our small state, i have a tale of two cities, so to speak, to try to get that balance going forward is complicated. >> you mentioned listening more to the doctors. i think that listens to sense. let's take another listen to a different point made by dr. fauci. >> the antibody tests are developed. there are several out there. they don't tell you whether they are infected, they tell you whether you have been infected. and the answer to that is important. it is likely that we need to prove it, but once you've been infected and you have an antibody profile, that you are very likely protected against subsequent challenge for the same virus, which means you may

have a cohort of people who are actually protected, who have more of a chance of getting back into the normality of society. >> so as a governor on the front lines, are you starting to work on what that might look like? do you see a world where in the future, in your state, you're looking at opening up areas or devising policies around who has had it and beat it, herd immunity, or as dr. fauci just mentioned, people who may have that profile? >> absolutely. we're thinking about the antibody test, rolling that out, strategizing for folks in critical defense industries. see which of those folks have developed the antibodies, who is immune to the covid virus. that's how we'll get people back to the workforce safely. we'll try to roll that out

statewide. >> all very important points. governor lamont, thank you so much. >> ari, nice to be with you again. >> great to have you. meanwhile, the other story we've been covering, over 6.5 million americans now jobless. are we headed towards something that can't be turned around? >> we're already living paycheck to paycheck, already behind in bills. >> there's a lot of uncertainty on what we're going to be doing as far as how we'll make it through. (burke) at farmers insurance, we've seen almost everything that can happen to your home...or car.

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to understand what your wealth is really for. welcome back. there are staggering new figures out "today" showing this ongoing economic fallout. over 6 million americans jobless, bringing the total number to 16 million in three weeks. the surge has overwhelmed up

employment offices, many people having trouble filing their claims. >> i called the line hundreds of times. only gotten busy signal or disconnected. >> my wife and i are constantly calling from two different lines, pretty much all day. hoping to get someone on the phone. >> an administration official told nbc news that the president wants to unveil another task force to focus on the economy, as well as what happens when the country tries to reopen. tonight, the president was asked what he would say to all these people tonight in america unemployed and worried about the xi bouncing back? >> i think what's going to happen is we're going to have a big bounce rather than a small bounce. but we will be back and i think honestly, i think our country is going to be back from an economic stand point, again, you can never replace the people that were lost, and to their families certainly you can never do a thing like that.

but we will have succeeded in many ways, hopefully keeping the number way below our minimum numbers, and also from an economic stand point. >> trump's economy complicates the argument that he should be re-elected. you have joe biden clinching at least the presumptive status of democratic nominee with joe biden in the lead there and b bernie sanders and dropping out. we are joined by eugene robinson, who has been riding along with us, sometimes before and after these briefings. appreciate your time, sir. you heard the president -- >> good to be here. >> glad to have you. you heard the president make the argument, it's bad now, we could bounce back. eagle eyed viewers and listeners will think there's an echo there of big shawn, who always talks about bouncing back. but this is a hard one to bounce back from any time soon, eugene. the pain, the wreckage, something we have discussed today. these numbers are so severe,

they are so much worse than anything we've seen in the past few decades, and just as we don't know when the curve will flatten, we don't know that this new 6 million is the worst yet either. >> right. i mean, first and foremost, we talk about the tragic human toll that this virus has taken. then when you look at the economic toll, it's so huge. it's hard to get your arms around it. nearly 17 million people filing for unemployment. that's a portion of those who were actually unemployed. there are estimates that unemployment has shot up in the real world to 13% or more. those are great depression kinds of figures. and while you have -- at some point, you do come back.

[ audio difficulties ] yes, we do a good enough job if the government does a good enough job supporting small businesses and individuals through this awful period when they have no income. a lot of people should be able to try to resume where they're left off. but it won't be all small businesses that survive. it won't be all americans that get their jobs back. and when is the question that nobody can answer, because we don't know when it will be safe to say, okay, everybody, go back to the way it was. and the way it's going to be probably will not be a way it was, at least until there is a fullproof vaccine for this virus, and that won't be for another 18 months or so. >> and yeah, we're just looking at some of the file footage, some of the photographs, some of

the different reported evidence how this is playing out, people in lines, people trying to find ways to get unemployment when the websites aren't working. and then, of course, some are trying to social distance. it's a challenge. we have also seen reporting out today about the demand for food assistance, food banks, rivalling anything we have seen, even in the last great recession. one outlet saying it was not double or triple, but over five times the demand. while they were giving out the food, eugene, they were also contracting with extra security to try to lower tensions, because of the desperation. do you think that the congress has met this moment enough yet, and the president has sort of led -- i feel silly asking the question, because most people would say obviously not. but walk us through what it means to lead a nation dealing

with this level of economic pain. >> well, we have not met the moment, the federal government has not met the moment, i think that's clear. the longer this goes on, the worse it will get. and, you know, look, $2 trillion plus another $4 trillion, that sounds like a lot of money. but that's not nearly what's going to be needed. we do need another immediate tranche of money, big money going to workers, to individuals that may be passed through the companies to ensure that they can keep their jobs, they stay at least on the payrolls until these companies can start up again. much like the arrangement that

the airline employees managed to get in, and the airline assistance keep their jobs. you know, there are other businesses, there needs to be something like that. and look, this is just the time when you don't hold back. there should be -- the leadership, there should be a plan. we haven't heard a plan yet for getting through the period and how we could conceivably come out of this period. hopefully someone is working on one, but we haven't heard it yet. >> all fair points, gene robinson, our thanks to you joining us tonight on more than one topic. we're going to fit in a break. then we turn to something we haven't talked about today. it's so important, how are prison facilities dealing with the surge in coronavirus cases

and the risk that poses to obviously the people inside, as well as the people who work there and the affected communities? we have a special guest, the author of "orange is the new black" when we return. >> surprisingly, places like brooklyn, queens, places like washington heights where i was born and raised where i now work, are disproportionately affected. probably the communities most affected are the incarcerated and the homeless. om this commer? did any of you hear the "bundle your home and auto" part? -i like that, just not when it comes out of her mouth. -yeah, as a mother, i wouldn't want my kids to see that. -good mom. -to see -- wait. i'm sorry. what? -don't kids see enough violence as it is? -i've seen violence. -maybe we turn the word "bundle" into a character, like mr. bundles. -top o' the bundle to you. [ laughter ] bundle, bundle, bundle. -my kids would love that. -yeah.

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the coronavirus is a problem everywhere. it is a problem not only in our free communities, but also behind bars in the prisons and jails that are all over the united states. cook county jail in chicago is the nation's large known source of coronavirus infections with over 350 cases. rikers island in new york where many people have not been convicted of a crime but awaiting trial. it saw its first inmate die from the virus. 287 inmates have tested positive just at that facility alone. many zbogovernors are expeditin the release of many categories of inmates. many say this is a much larger problem, that includes piper carman, the best selling author of "orange is the new black." she spent 13 months in a correctional facility and had an article in "the washington post" noting prisoners are

uncontrollable super spreaders. her work is known to so many people from her book. thanks for joining me. >> of course, ari. great to be here with you. >> so what is it that people need to know about this as a public health issue first, regardless of how they may feel about inmate population? second, as a humanitarian issue, because people behind bars still have full human rights. >> so people need to know all american prisons and jails are vastly overcrowded and that social distancing in all of the practices that we have adopted nationwide to try to fight this pandemic are impossible behind bars. so as an example, you know, i taught as a men's meeting in security prison in marion, ohio, which was the first prison to have an outbreak. that prison was built for 1400 prisoners and currently hold s

2600 men. so that's how overcrowded most prisons are. that makes it impossible to slow the spread. so people may be indifferent to the conditions that the people who work and the people who are incarcerated there, you know, are enduring. but what they need to know, there's no way to keep those hot spots behind the walls of a prison or jail. cook county jail is a great example. prisons and jails are connected to more than 1300 cases across the country. and those cases are not all behind bars. those are also staff, as you mentioned a number of correctional officers have tragically died. and their families and as we know, this pandemic spreads really quickly. it's highly contagious. and the presence of an outbreak behind bars threatens the outside community. the only way to combat those outbreaks is to reduce the populations in those prisons and jails. so we've seen that happen in

many municipalities. so some county or city jails have done a good job of reducing their populations swiftly. there wasn't hard to do, because there were a lot of people there for very low disdemeanors or eligible for bail. some places have done a good job of getting those folks out of confinement and flattening the curve. some prisons have not done a good job at all. you know, we have seen much more trouble in the state prison systems in terms of getting governors to do what they need to do to protect public health. >> i want to play in that vein something from an ohio prison, which i know you know about, we taught there, we're going to hear a prisoner describing some of these conditions and challenges right now. >> somebody in here tested positive for covid-19.

so this is what they gave us. like all the necessary precautions are out the window. a few dudes in here right now who got phifers who they're not of here. hygiene, tooth paste, soap, all of that is about to be non-exist tabl tant and they don't have a way to get us more. >> what should be done about this? >> so that footage is from where i used to teach in ohio and so this is a men's medium security prison. it happens to be the prison that holds the largest number of elderly prisoners in the state of ohio. it is way over capacity. built for 1400 men holding about 2600. i can tell you, you know, i had a lot of guys in my class there. i'm thinking about my students. i'm thinking specifically about, you know, some of my students i know are very close to release,

so a couple of guys who have been incarcerated for, let's say, eight or nine years but they are within a year of their release. they are more than ready to go home and so there are a lot of people in state prisons who are close to their release dates who should be released now, you know, i would say the safe release plan in order to reduce that population and the other group of people in state prisons who must be fast tracked for release are those elderly prisoners and critically ill prisoners and again, mary ann correctional institution, the bad outbreak in ohio is a federal prison holds more elderly prisoners than any other prison in the state of ohio. and this is a problem across the country where the number of elderly prisoners across the country has grown by 300% over the last 15 years. so there's a significant

percentage of prisoners in all american prisons who are among the people who are most at risk and there are also the lowest safety risk. elderly prisoners have extremely low rates. sending them home as an act of mercy is not a threat to public safety but not sending them home is a threat to public health. >> it goes to the balancing that we do and whether any of that needs to be rebalanced. lord knows americans are rebalancing their daily lives, policy, economy, losing jobs, what you have i think emp evhasd in your work there are trade offs in the prison system already that are very questionable when you talk about what is the value to society of keeping someone incarcerated so they die in there depending on the offense and does any of that need to be rebalanced? these are profound questions i appreciate you raising.

piper? one more thought? did you have one more thing? >> we seen governors like governor cuomo, newsom do lots of smart and important and swift things to protect the people in their state but where all three of those governors are falling short is around this question of public health and public safety that comes to the state prisons, so tragically, in ohio, you know yesterday they reported their first death of a correctional officer and that -- >> yeah, we have that. >> that is officer dawson and -- >> yeah, john dawson. >> i saw him every day when i would leave the prison. he was close to retirement and he was a good guy. he was a nice man, and that was an avoidable death and -- >> absolutely. >> many of these deaths aren't going to be avoidable. >> piper again -- >> moral responsibility -- >> we're only on a slight delay. i have to fit in a break but

glad to get your additional point and mr. dawson deceased because of a lot of these threats. we'll fit in a break and we'll be right back.

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many rural communities are remote but that doesn't make them immune to the coronavirus. ali reporting from west virginia. >> reporter: in west virginia fighting coronavirus is coming up against the business of keeping hospital doors open. concerns here are eless about preparation and more about the cash flow needed to keep hospitals open. empty hospitals means millions lost as elective hospitals are postponed. >> keep people out of the hospitals except those who need to be in the hospitals. >> reporter: that ensures beds are available and non-infected patients aren't exposed. there is a downside, that's money these hospitals need to survive. >> it's dried up revenue significantly in our hospitals, some to the point of a 30% drop in layoffs have occurred. people are furloughed.

others have gone in reduction in force. >> reporter: on one hand, you want to hear hospitals are at 50%. they're ready if there is an influx of coronavirus cases. on the other hand, it's a matter of can you stay in business to handle the coronavirus? a challenge for a state that's used sparse health care systems. they have 68 hospitals ex medical centers for 1.8 million west virginians. two hospitals have closed in the last six months alone. >> with a vulnerable population. >> reporter: nearly half the state's adult population is at serious risk of illness if infected with covid-19 making it the most at risk in the u.s. >> if they start having this large outbreak and then coming to our smaller community hospitals, that could be a very bad situation because those hospitals could be overwhelmed pretty quickly. >> reporter: it's a prime target but the state's rural nature means social distancing is in someways built in. >> that continues to be either

our achilles heel or something that's really good for us. >> reporter: another thing that could be good is the $100 billion coming to hospitals from the cares act. >> we have hospitals losing half a million to a million dollars a day just in lost revenue and so this money from the cares act would be very helpful. >> reporter: helpful but by senator mansion's estimation, not enough. >> we put all the money towards the financial crisis coming afterwards and it needs to have the attention but if you don't put the attention to the front line, if you can't keep hospitals especially in rural west virginia, rural america, then we've got no way to take care of our citizens. >> we wanted to show you that reporting there as a final word. "all in" starts now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we are now several weeks int