6.6 million more people filed for unemployment benefits this week, and american businesses say they're not done laying off yet. 1.7 million coronavirus cases worldwide, and it's still barely touched some of the least prepared nations. and 3595% of americans are unde stay a the hot home orders, ordy of them simply cannot afford.

"velshi" starts now. welcome back, i'm ali velshi. it has been five months since the novel coronavirus, which causes covid-19 was first transmitted to humans, and since then more than 102,000 people have died of the disease. new york is now the covid capital of the world. the state itself has more confirmed cases of the disease than any other country reporting positive test results. the death toll in new york now stands at 7,844. here's how several er residents at new york city's st. barnabas hospital described the situation. >> i've into -- intubated more patients in the last week and a half than six months before this all started. we're seeing the worst of the worse. we're seeing the 20-year-olds, the 30-year-olds j it looks like a war zone. >> our emergency department has turned into an icu. essentially the hospital is turning into an icu. what normally goes into like a

small area of the hospital comparatively to the rest of the hospital is now essentially the entire hospital. >> joining me now live from new york city's billie jean king national tennis center, cory coffin. the center you're at normally hosts the u.s. open, it's now set up as a field hospital. you spent some time at another surreal scene, a field hospital in central park. take us inside the operation that you're at now. >> reporter: yeah, here today is the first official day that they will be accepting covid positive patients, ali. this 100,000 square foot facility as you mentioned normally hosts some of the greatest athletes in the world, and now it is here to save lives in the midst of this global pandemic. listen, this is so badly needed in this community. the timing could not have come any sooner. elmhurst hospital, of course as you know is one of the hardest hit here in queens. so patients will be coming in here as an overflow site, and

there will be 20 icu beds, and by the time all of this is finished and fully set up, 475 beds will be on site here. first five patients came in last night, ali, and one thing we do know as well as along with these beds that are here inside this site, the arthur ashe stadium will, as far as we know, continue to operate as normal. we do not know of any beds actually going inside the arthur ashe stadium, ali. >> cory, thank you for your reporting, reporting live from new york city's billie jean king national tennis center. the federal reserve has drastically increased its efforts to save the american economy yesterday announcing $2.3 trillion in programs aimed at businesses. this is entirely separate from the $2.2 trillion stimulus package. this comes as the weekly job numbers continue to paint a dire picture. 6.6 million new americans filed for unemployment insurance last week. that was on top of similar

record numbers the previous week, and about half those numbers in the week before. so in the last three weeks in total, take a look at that, nearly 17 million americans have filed for unemployment claims. here's how attorney general william barr describes the situation. >> i think we have to be very careful to make sure this is -- you know, that the draconian measures that are being adopted are fully justified and there are not alternative ways of protecting people. and i think, you know, when this period of time, at the end of april expires, i think we have to allow people to adapt more than we have and not just tell people to go home and hide under the bed. we will have a weaker health care system if we go into a deep depression. so just measured in lives, the cure cannot be worse than the disease. >> been hearing that line for a while, the cure cannot be worse than the disease. so don't tell people to go home and hide under their beds. people staying at home are not

hiding under their beds. they are doing their part to prevent the destruction of this disease to america and the world. joining me now is distinguished senior fellow at dmo, she's a former managing director at goldman sachs and former senior managing director at bear stern, she's also the author of the book "all the presidents bankers," how central bankers rigged world. also with me, the director of the center for infectious disease research and policy at the university of minnesota. he's the author of "deadliest enemy, our war against killer germs." his latest piece in the "new york times" is it's too late to avoid disaster but there are still things we can do. let me just start with you, because you are a proponent, as many public health officials are of the fact that at some juncture and maybe starting now we do have to think about how we get back -- how we get our economy back. obviously it is important for people to work. obviously a society doesn't function with everybody at home.

but you are concerned that the way the administration and attorney general barr and vice president pence and all of them put it creates a false dichotomy. either we stay home and stay safe or we go back to work, and are the truth lies somewhere in the middle. >> thank you, ari, in fact, i think the big challenge we have right now is the fact that we're going to be living with this for many, many months. this is not an event that's just about over with. we can expect at least 16 or 18 more months. what we have to figure out is how to stay in the middle lane. not go off in the ditch on the side of we do nothing and everyone has a serious problem, health care systems drop out of functionality or we on the other hand can't just lockdown, and so what we need to really do is come one that plan in the middle. is some of us are trying to dwom tha develop that, and it's not what we're doing now. >> you heard my conversation with sarah nelson a few minutes

ago, of that $2.2 trillion, very shrill of th little of that money is to protect workers through their wages. some of it goes to unemployment, and some of it goes to these $1,200 checks. fundamentally your concern is the same concern you and i discussed ten years ago in the last financial crisis, and that is this -- these things by their nature, legislation of this sort by its nature gets influenced by those at the top of the economic ladder? >> yeah, that's absolutely right. the fiscal stimulus package that had come out, yes, it does have money available for sba loans for small businesses. it does have a greater unemployment insurance cushion and all of that, but fundamentally, even the 500 billion of it and as sarah mentioned, part of that was fought for as it can relate to air lie airlines to keep protections for the actual workers for those airlines but a lot of it gets spun through the federal reserve into a faster amount of loans that go out through the banks to those corporations as well as a

number of other federal reserve facilities as we had during the last financial crisis that are multiple trillions of dollars available to the top levels of the economy, to wall street banks, to corporations and so forth. just by the very nature of how they're constructed and what's available. >> michael, what is your view? i'm going to have a bigger conversation on this later in the show, but what's your view as to what a normal conversation about returning america to business should look like? because right now we've got a schizophrenic view of this. sometimes we talk about tomorrow was supposed to be the day we were all supposed to open for business. then it got extended to may. now the president's talking about the cure being worse than the cause. what would solve this problem? we're not getting sort of a nationally coordinated conversation about this. >> well, first of all, we just have to understand the conditions on the ground. what i mean by that is we are in

one battle right now. if you take a look at 1918 and what happened with that pandemic, and i think that there are a lot of similarities here, that first spring wave was actually low relative to what happened later, and it wasn't happening everywhere. just like we're seeing right now, and then the fall wave came, and it was many, many times worse, so imagine new york city three, four, five times larger in terms of what it is right now. and that's what we're not preparing for. we're going to go through a series of quiet periods where we can do more. we can be more relaxed. we can have people in the work force, and we're going to have periods where we're going to have to go back to shutdowns. we need to look at how do we bring our younger population back into the work force. they're the ones who are the least likely to have serious disease or die, and how can they basically be part of that work force if they get infected and recover, that's better in the sense that it stops more transmission in the general population, if you have more immune rods in the virus reaction. we've got to have that kind of a

plan. right now all we're doing is fighting this battle. that's all we're thinking about and we're not thinking long-term. think of a work force that's in a quiet time and a work force that's going to be in times that could be much worse than we're seeing right now, and we're not doing that. >> we are going to have, obviously, a phase 4 with $2.2 trillion package was a phase 3. we're going to have a phase 4. what should it look like to consider the real peril that american workers face? >> so let's just have a stimulus package that doesn't float straight to the top of corporate balance sheets and straight to being leveraged by the fed. therefore we need to take the kernel of the last one that was related to payroll, to direct injections for people to not having them have to go through all these red tapes and hoops and calling and getting hung up on and all sorts of things in order to even get small business loans, that things are actually more available to real people, to hospitals, to individuals on the ground whether they've accessed credit before or

whether they haven't, which is a problem right now, and some of them even getting it or even knowing about it, and actually fundamentally helping the foundation of the economy rather than simply- and one of the components of the last stimulus package was $290 trillion of tax breaks to the larger corporations if later on down the line they keep certain employees. well, they can decide that the tax break is worth more than the employees, so that doesn't create more strings attached to that kind of money. it would be cool to have a fiscal stimulus package that does not go from the top down but only goes from the foundation up as well as to hospitals, medical professionals and so forth who have been so drastically hurt in this particular crisis and don't have the cushion and don't have it from much of the last fiscal stimulus package. the really important thing is didn't get attached to the last package, most of 2008 financial bailouts and packages and fed facilities is much more transparency at the end of the day as to where any of the money

goes from the stuff that's already out there from the top. we didn't do it in the last package, how it gets to where it goes and whether it really at the end of the day helps employees, helps workers, helps the foundation of the economy the way it is intended or should be intended to do. >> thank you to both of you. distinguished senior fellow author of the book all the president's bankers, the hidden alliance that drives american power and collusion, how central bankers rigged the world, and director for the center of infectious disease research and policy at the university of minnesota. he's autothor of deadliest enemy, our war against killer germs. coming up next, i'm going to talk to a nurse who refused to let a patient take her last breath alone. it's a burden many have taken on. through it all, many health care workers are still finding hope. >> despite how challenging my night will be, we hear good things every day.

today before i was leaving the house one of my colleagues had texted and she just texted a number. she texted a number and said this is the number of patients whose lives we have been saving over just the past day. if we're gonna save the world, we need to unite all the trolls.

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well, we're doomed. the world premiere is now in your home. a smooth jazz troll? i don't care for smooth jazz. and right now the sickest patients for covid-19 have a 50% survival rate. that means that in our hospital, which has an average age of 64 in the icu that 50% of the people that i meet are going to die. >> the new normal, as this virus upends our way of living, we've been forced to change the way we do things, the way we work. the way we shop, the way we monitor our health, the way we socialize, but the most overwhelming change is the way

we say good-bye. families are now feeling helpless. they face a new struggle of not physically being able to be with loved ones in their final moments. the best option now, we've seen this digital good-byes over face time or phone calls, a connection that nurses around the world are helping to make. joining me now is ann call, she's a registered nurse at ocean medical center in brick, new jersey. ann was the last comfort for a covid-19 patient during her final moments. ann, it's difficult for me to have this conversation with you, and i wasn't even there. you were with a patient, who was older, who had a do not resuscitate order. her family knew she was going to pass. they weren't able to be with her. this wasn't even your patient. this was a colleague's patient who was new at the job. take me through what happened. >> hi, first of all, yeah, so i went in with megan, who was the primary nurse, and we set her up

to get some comforting medication so she would be comfortable, and i just couldn't leave her. i couldn't leave megan, and i couldn't leave the patient. i really believe that people shouldn't die alone. my dad died alone, and i will never know if he was suffering or if he was scared, so i just felt that i needed to stay with her. it was -- it was a tough moment. >> you -- you said something interesting to our producers. you said she wasn't alert, but i tend to think people are more aware than they think. so you did the things that so many people do for their loved ones in their last moments. you cleaned her mouth. you fixed her hair, you did the things that people would do, that people's family would do,

that their loved ones would do. >> i would like to think so. she did -- when we first went in there, she did say her mouth was dry. she just kept saying dry, dry, i got a wet rag and i cleaned out her mouth. i fixed up her hair, you know, caressed her hair, her face. i held her hand. i put my hand on her heart and i just told her she wasn't alone, that she was loved, that it was okay to rest and close her eyes and just be comfortable. so we stayed with her probably for a good hour just talking to her. if i could sing, i would have sang, but that wouldn't have been a good thing, but she's -- yeah, i'm hoping she heard me. i believe she did. >> you're a professional, and you've been at this for 27 years. this is your first coronavirus

patient who has died, but you know, we know that you're professionals and we count on you, but this is sort of a moment. lipi roy, dr. lipi roy in the last hour was telling about the stresses on doctors and nurses and hospital workers and health care workers and home health aides. that can't be anything but personal for you despite the fact that this is your profession? >> yeah, it's different than anything i've ever experienced in my career. i've done a lot of things throughout my career. it's hard to walk in and see your co-workers and your peers crying and struggling and, you know, not only are they dealing with the stresses of their job but exposing, you know, taking the risk of exposing their families. it's hard to watch. it really is hard to watch because we're a family in our hospital. we have a great group of people, so i struggle with going in to

work and watching my co-workers feel this pain. >> ann, thank you for what you are doing. thank you for what nurses across this country are doing to help us get through this. we have always appreciated you. i hope the world appreciates what nurses do now in our moment of need. ann calls is a registered nurse at ocean medical center in brick, new jersey. thank you. stay safe. all right, millions of unemployed americans are living in uncertain times right now with money as one of their biggest concerns. suze orman, personal finance expert is with us next. she's going to help us sort through the best financial practices for you and your family. i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need!

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a staggering 6.6 million americans filed for unemployment claims, insurance claims this week. the government has passed a relief bill giving americans a stimulus check. for many that one-time payment

is not going to be enough. plus, portions of the population may receive no stimulus at all like parents who care for children over 17 years of age. nbc's josh lederman spoke with one woman who claims her adult son with disabilities as a dependent. let's listen. >> the money will still be tremendously helpful, you know, i still buy all his clothes, you know. i still, you know, buy him toys. >> many americans are left to wonder how they're going to feed their families or pay their bills. data from the federal reserve shows that nearly 40% of americans would be unable to pay $400 of an unexpected expense in cash. that same data also shows that at least 12% of americans would not be able to pay the $400 expense at all. others would take out payday loans, bank loans, charge it to credit cards or dip into retirement, but are those options good ideas to get through the pandemic? with me now, personal finance expert and author of the ultimate retirement guide for

50-plus, winning strategies to make your money last a lifetime, and the host of the podcast "women and money" suze orman who's also written about 50 other books. i don't know how many books this is you've written, and i'm sorry that the only time you and i get to talk these days, my old friend is in times of disaster. last time it was when the hurricane hit the bahamas. you and i spent a lot of time talking during the last recession, and one thing that you always told people to do is try to have more than what most financial advisers tell you to have as savings. several months available to you, but the truth is so many americans don't, so this $1,200 check that a lot of people will get is not going to sustain them certainly for months if they remain unemployed. >> you know, ali, what's so very sad is that so many people are waiting for this $1,200, and when you have nothing, $1,200 can seem like a fortune, but ali, most of them aren't going to see it for possibly, four,

five, or six months, so they're counting on something that in my opinion for many aren't even going to come. unemployment is almost impossible to get for many people depending on your state regulations, and even though you've applied for unemployment doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to get it, so we are really in a situation where the people who need the money the most in my opinion still aren't going to have it, so we have a personal financial crisis if you're asking me like none that we've ever seen before, ali, even when we went through this in 2008, this is nowhere near as bad. that was nowhere near as bad as it is right now. >> let me take some questions from my viewers. that's what people associate you with. i've got one where it says an issue concerning credit reports, credit bureaus is what the sba, the small business administration is checking credit reports for these stimulus loans, and it's causing

credit stores to drop. my credit has been checked twice by the sba, and my score has dropped twice. my friend's credit actually dropped 33 points. why aren't the credit bureaus helping consumers out with this. here's what i got from experian. your credit score is decreased because a lender has requested a copy of your credit report for a business loan. >> this is one of the great t f travestie travesties. two companies should be helping us more than ever. the credit card companies should be lowering the interest rates down to 0%, number one, and number two, all the credit bureaus should absolutely not be decreasing any credit scores whatsoever from the time this started, but they are. so at a time when people don't have the money to pay their bills, they need more credit is the exact time that these credit bureaus are dinging our credit scores, which makes it almost impossible for us then to get more credit on credit cards, to get a good interest rate, to do the things that we need.

now, with that said for the person who just wrote in, 30 points is not a big ding on a credit score. if your credit score goes from 780 to 750, who cares. you still will probably get it, but if all of a sudden it's taking you down from 700 all the way into the 500s, you're not going to get the loans that you want, so 30 points is not something that you should be really freaked out about, ali, really. >> i got a question from mary. i retired in january 2019. i'm still maintaining my tiaa account with my university. i made good gains in the last 14 months, even though i wasn't adding any money to my account since i'm retired. last month was bad. u lost 30%. i don't need these funds right now. i have enough to get by. what are my options? should i do nothing and hope for the best? two, reallocate, or three what other options do i have? >> yeah, you should do nothing

and hope for the best. you have time on your side, and that is key. if you had said to me, you know, i'm retired. i need the money right now. i need it for x, y, and z, i would say, okay, every time the market spikes up, sell, because the truth of the matter is money that you need within one or two years is not money that belongs in the stock market. it never has been and never will be. but you said that you don't need this money for a number of years. i have absolute faith that within three, four, five years, whatever it is, these markets will absolutely return. we're also not down 35% anymore. at this point, you know, the nasdaq is only down about 10% from its high. we're down, you know, only about 20%. we've had a nice little jump back up, so i would just stick it out as long as you're in good quality stocks, mutual funds, or etfs. >> yes, this last week has been one of the best weeks in many, many, many years in the stock market. you're still up over five years

by a lot, and over ten years by a lot. i've got one for you, suze i'm 71 years old, i'm going to be receiving my pension from a large international company, honeywell, should i choose a lump sum or monthly distribution? is it risky fore hits these companies are taking? it's a great question. >> it is a great question. the problem is that for many of you when you get a lump sum of money and you roll it over to an ira rollover, you really don't know what to invest it in, and then you leave yourself vulnerable as well for many financial people to tell you do this, do that, you get all confused and then you make mistakes with it. i personally like a guaranteed income. i like a pension in most cases over rolling it over to an ira rollover, and as long as you check with the pension guarantee association that your pension isn't going to be so large it is covered, because they cover it

up to a specific amount. so i actually would opt for a pension over an ira rollover. >> one thing from the last financial crisis you and i talked a lot about was the fact that sheila bear was running the federal deposit insurance corporation. they doubled the amount of money that you were insured for, and no one lost any money that was deposited in a bank. it was the most orderly thing about the last financial crisis. a bank would close on a friday night, and on monday morning it would reopen by whatever bank acquired it, and nobody lost money, but now we're talking about unemployment rates that have exceeded the last recession, some are talking about unemployment rates that will exceed the last depression, 24%. should people be worried about institutional money, money in 401(k)s, money in iras, money in their bank accounts, money in money market accounts? >> i have to tell you, i don't think i would be at this point in time. the banks were so much stronger right now this time, ali, than

they were in 2008 when this last happened. we had a financial crisis. here we had a health crisis that leads in or led in to a financial crisis. i think the 250,000 will absolutely hold with the fdic. i think the worst thing you can do is take out large sums of money, which many people are doing, taking it home thinking that you absolutely are insured for that money, and most people don't understand that your home insurance will only insure up to $500, and that's it. so if the house burns down, you're robbed, it's gone. so if anything, just be very, very careful here. i would not be doing a run on the banks at this point. >> you didn't give me permission to tell this story. when i was in the bahamas, and there was a man who needed to get off an island, you offered to send an airplane to evacuate them. that is the kind of person you are. thank you for helping my viewers. let's stay in close touch again, my friend. we did it last time, and we'll do it again, and we'll help

everybody get through this. >> thanks, ali, i'm always here for you and everybody, by the way. >> you are. personal finance expert suze orman, if you haven't read her books, then you've been under a rock, but you should get them, the author of the ultimate retirement guide for 50 plus, winning strategies to make your money last a lifetime. she's host of the podcast women and money. she's written many good books and they don't repeat themselves. what does a post-coronavirus world look like, and how do we get there? our medical experts say we cannot do it without testing, vaccines and deep sanitizing. we're going to have that discussion next. you're watching "velshi" on msnbc. (burke) at farmers insurance, we've seen almost everything

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should americans have to decide between staying healthy and going back to work? >> look, i think we're going to do both. we're going to go back to work, and we're going to stay healthy, and staying healthy is also a proportion. if you look at what we're doing,

we're looking at a date, we hope we're going to be able to fulfill a certain date, but we're not doing anything until we know that this country is going to be healthy. >> by the way, if you listen to the president every day, that tune changes every day. it's easier said than done, and it's a complicated equation. most medical experts believe a safe return to the workplace is going to include three major contributing factors starting with testing to determine who has tested positive for covid-19 along with tests to determine who has coronavirus antibodies in their system. second, prevention of future spread through contact tracing and follow-up. prevention would also include the vigilant use of masks, gloves, social distancing, plastic barriers at stores and uv lighting which kills the virus in public spaces. the third is medication and the possible use of nonspecific vaccines that happen to work on covid-19. joining us to discuss the path forward are two of the foremost experts in the field.

a professor of global health and social medicine at harvard medical school, dr. irwin redlener is the director of the national center for disaster preparedness, a public health analyst for msnbc. these are two of the gentlemen i turn to a lot to have discussions about where we go next in this. you've got different ideas. they're not in conflict with each other, but they're different ideas. s salman you believe as the president does that it is impractical for us all to be in our homes for an extended period of time. at some point, it will be practical if we do the right things to start to get people back into the work force. we've got to be very careful about how that's done. tell us what you think. >> i think you hit the nail on the head, and i'm really glad you're dealing with this topic because you know, we have to be guided by the science, and i think we're stymied by the fact that we actually don't know how much kricoronavirus is out ther. one of the if if ifirst things

figure out how much is there. you could do that by testing, you could test everybody or something similar to what the gallop people does. you sample a cluster of people, and you look at that cluster and say this is how much disease we have out there. if you find a lot of people have antibodies that may be protected, that makes it easier to get people back to work. if you find that they don't, it makes it a bit harder. you need two other things in place with that. one is, you have to make public spaces safe. you've mentioned personal protective equipment, people could wear that, workers could wear that. you could also include uvc lighting, it's a spectrum of lighting that's upper airway. it's been used for 60, 70 years in hospitals, prisons, and other places, and it's in the upper room, and so it doesn't really cause damage to people, but it kills viruss and bacteria in the air and then if you did targeted testing at certain workplaces you can make sure people working there are safe and the people

that come in who have masks on are not transmitting the virus. and then the third thing is as you alluded to, you'd need some sort of preventative therapy or a vaccine, and we don't have either right now. people are working on it, but there are nonspecific vaccines. you know, my colleague megan murray is doing a trial looking at bcg vaccine, which is a tb vaccine that goes into 100 million kids every year. it kind of boosts your immune system and protects you from lung disease and other things. it could be that a nonspecific vaccine might help. to jump back to the uv light for a second, my colleague who's been doing this for 40 years has actually mapped out what would be needed for a walmart or a home depot or a target, and it's very, very doable to make some of these places safer. >> irwin, what's your take on it? >> well, my take is unfortunately there's a lot of unknowns here including let's start with the issue of the antibodies, and you know, the

igg and the igm, two different types of antibodies. it's not yet certain that we're going to have efficient testing that will tell you that, yes, you have antibodies but the specific antibodies needed to fight the coronavirus. there's work that needed to be done. the other thing is with uv lighting and other things there's still some question at least in my mind because a big study came out of china a couple of days ago that said things like humidity, temperature, and uv lighting may not haactually protective. and i do think that we still are going to have to wait to see what happens with the vaccine, which is a long time from now. by the way, your interview with suze orman was very important. it's not like there's a bucket of just economic problems and then there's a bucket of public health issues. the economic problems have phenomenal impact on the mental health, the stability, and the ability of people to tolerate whatever long period of isolation we're going to have to still experience, so they really

go together. and the other thing is i think in general and i think salman was saying this, but we're going to need new rules for the workplace. people are not just going to go back to their offices without some very specific rules about if you're sick, even mildly, you need to go home. don't come to work. number two, you need to maintain social separation even in the workplace if it's open. and number three, it's really important that we have the ability to do not only testing periodically, but rapidly, reliably, and in a way that could be repeated on people. i don't think a single testing, for example, that says you have -- you have immune cal or you have evidence that you've had the infection, that is not going to be a lifelong protection necessarily. we don't have any idea really how long immunity is going to work. so until we get the vaccine, we may be having to test people

very regularly. >> thanks to both of you for your guidance. i actually feel better listening to the two of you because you have at least ways of thinking about this scientifically that lead us to the other side of these dark days. professor of global health and social medicine at harvard medical school, dr. irwin redlen redlener, director of the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia university, thanks to both of you. it is a holy weekend for christians and jews around the world, and we're hoping that you're able to find faith in a time like this when so many are finding it hard to have faith in our government. this is my body of proof. proof i can fight moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. proof i can fight psoriatic arthritis... ...with humira. proof of less joint pain... ...and clearer skin in psa. humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections.

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we have breaking news rigno. new york city mayor has just announced that public schools in new york will remain closed through the rest of the year. he said public schools will not reopen in new york for the rest of the year calling it a painful

decision, but he said it is the right thing to do. as we know, new york has seen a slight reduction in the number of patients admitted to icu yesterday. just 17 patients were introduced to icu yesterday it's too early to say whether new york has peaked but it has started to look like there are fewer admissions, fewer deaths per day and fewer infections per day, but still the new york, new jersey area is central to the covid-19 outbreak. philadelphia is now feeling an increased effect with the federal government calling it a renewed area of concern. but new york schools will not reopen for the remind ore of the year. a few weeks back donald trump declared himself a wartime

president. this week in the "new york times," we have s not with one we need. few-his actions display the need for the wartime commander in chief who is confront ago viral version of world war ii. joining me now is jon meachham. refleks on the last words of jesus christ from the cross and let ae start with this. i know you study a lot of things from music to presidential history to rely downaigion and a holy weekend for christians and jews and for many people who are lapsed in their religion it's taken on a new meaning because people need guidance and they need leadership and we have certainly found it lacking at

our national level. >> we have and faith is about trying to find some order amid chaos in many ways. it's trying to find meaning in life, explain its origins, help understand its course, shape its destiny. that's one definition of faith through the ages no matter what you believe. whether you believe in the god of abraham or a god only known to you, whatever that is, that's the instinct and we want to have faith not only in some order beyond time but we want to have faith in the leadership and the institutions that shape our lives within time and one thing that links all of this is that -- and this is an old phrase from the greeks, character is destiny and destiny in greek can be translated as fate. so the character can be fate. not only for all of us but for the person at the very top and what we've seen is a president

who is relentlessly narcissistic and defensive and less than candid and those are characteristics that are exactly the wrong ones we need for a moment that requires a coherent candid national response to something that we haven't experienced in over a hundred years. >> jon, this weekend there will be services. today there will be services, not held in synagogues but that will be virtual. there will be church services today and tomorrow. there have been many instances in history where religion has taken that place, where there have been absences in leadership or protests of leadership. i think of poland, quebec, places where religious organization and religious leaders have taken the lead. >> look, religion itself means to tie together.

i'm doing a little bit of ed meteorolo etymology, but to tie back together, it's supposed to tie us together. religion and it does so in almost all the world religions because of a fundamental message of love one another as you love yourself and there's nothing more radical than that, is there? we live in a state of nature. we're in a fallen world. i mean, who wants to love someone else as much as you love yourself? it's a revolutionary call but historically speaking and this is a sectarian point, his store c -- his story speaks. they were in the streets of the

american south over a half century aeg not because of gandhi. they were there because of the sermon on the mount and if we can reengage with that message, we have to do it in small group, family groups, ourselves, but that's the way religion began and so at this point that's how we have to carry on. >> you've got gandhi, abraham and mohammed into a segment on msnbc. jon is a professor at vanderbilt university, author of several books including "the hope of glory." that is all for me for now. i will be back on at 7:00 p.m. eastern. a.m. joy beginning right after this break. wayfair has way more ways to renovate your home, from inspiration to installation. like way more vanities perfect for you. nice. way more unique fixtures and tiles.

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