welcome to "kasie dc." the country isn't back up as at least 16 million people face unemployment. we'll dig into new reporting the actions of the white house made the wait longer and the health impacts worse. plus, with signs of optimism in new york, i'm going to top to talk medical experts about the testing going on as we speak to try to get life for some back to normal. but first, president trump now hopes to see the nation's economy reopened on may 1st. after initially circling today on the calendar, easter sunday.

>> i would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by easter. easter is a very special day for me and i see it sort of in that timeline that i'm thinking about and i say wouldn't it be great to have all of the churches full? i think easter sunday and you'll have packed churches all over our country. i think it would be a beautiful time and it's just about the timeline that i think is right. >> today images poured in from across the country of what easter looked like in the age of social distancing. and clearly, they are nothing like president trump hoped they would be. and now as the president eyes another benchmark, 19 days away, "the washington post" reports one of the biggest obstacles to the virus response is trump himself. advisors spent significant time to manage the president and his whims from successfully dissuading him from seeking to reopen the country at easter to

tempering his impulse to push unproven drugs as miracle elixirs and we have a window how we arrived at this point with millions out of work and a half a million testing positive in the u.s. alone. "the new york times" reports quote, by the last week of february, it was clear to the administration's public health team that schools and businesses and hot spots would have to close. but in the turbulence of the trump white house, it took three more weeks to persuade the president that failure to act quickly to control the spread of the virus would have dire consequences. here is dr. anthony fauci responding to that report this morning. >> we look at it from a pure health standpoint, we make a recommendation. often the recommendation is taken sometimes it's not. but we -- it is what it is. we are where we are right now. i mean, obviously, you could logically say that if you had a process that was on going and you started mitigation early you

could have saved lives. nobody is going to d g ting to . if we had right from the very beginning shut everything down it may have been different. there was a lot of push back about shutting things down back then. >> obviously. and with that i'd like to welcome in my panel. we have politics editor for "the daily beast" sam stein and an msnbc contributor core rekareem. sam stein, let me start with you. you were tweeting some this afternoon what we heard there from dr. anthony fauci that under scored the point of the six by line piece this morning which is that there was resistance inside the white house to taking action earlier to fight this and we are now worse off because of it. >> yeah, i mean, the common

tension throughout the past couple months has been the public safety measures on one hand and the political expedient on the other. trump has one eye on the economy and his election. that's influenced a number of his decisions. chief among them the decision not to push for an essential shutdown when public health experts were for it. we're still obviously behind the eight ball in certain areas but when we look back at this, that's the critical decision that was made which was the president ultimately decided that he didn't want to have the economic wreckage that came with shutting down the country. an interesting development that just happened is trump right before we went on air was tweeting something that called fauci's statement to jake tapper fake news and included a hashtag called fire fauci which leads me

to believe that he is -- continues to be skeptical that the public health experts are telling the truth and secondarily have his political best interest at heart. this could really forshadow a few crazy and interesting developments until the weeks ahead. >> that is something i think a lot of us are not necessarily ready to grapple with. if you look at polling about who americans trust to deal with this crisis, it is overwhelmingly public health officials and dr. fauci specifically. i mean, there was another story from the times out this afternoon about even regular americans sitting watching these briefings asking where is dr. fauci? shannon petty piece, let's dig into what is going on tonight. let's take a look back where he was when these dire warnings were coming out. this was late february and the public health team behind the scenes we now know from this

reporting that's been laid out in the times and earlier in the washington post was pushing to try and take these actions. here are a couple of the things that president trump said first on february the 26th and then on february the 27th. let's watch and then we'll talk about it. >> we're, you know, we're at that very low level and we want to keep it that way. so we're at the low level. as they get better, we take them off the list so that we're going to be pretty soon at only five people and we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. we have done an incredible job. we're going to continue. it's going to disappear. one day it's like a miracle, it will disappear and from our shores, it could get worse before it gets better, it could maybe go away. we'll see what happens. nobody really knows. >> so of course, shannon, we do know that we have ended up in a much different place and we do know that the president has lately been listening to those

public health experts or at least he did in terms of the reality as we're sitting here on easter sunday and not back at work. what does your reporting tell you about the president's head space right now and who is winning this argument between the economic and public health officials? >> well, there is a major push in the white house to get things up and running by may 1st to some extent. maybe not the flick on a light switch and everything comes back with a big bang as the president has talked about a few times now but a reopening certain parts of the economy folks inside the white house are talking about if there are certain areas that haven't been affected very much, if there are certain types of businesses that could come online, if there's targeted testing that could be done to get certain people back to work. so those are things actively being discussed at the white house right now. as you have pointed out, there

has constantly throughout this process been almost like a devil and angle on the president's shoulder whispering in his ear and everybody can decide who is the devil and who is the angle but you have one side urging the president about the economic consequences to this and how white spread those are and the other side talking about the public health consequences. you played a couple clips from february and people are talking about jan. i remember the first week of march when the president was at mar-a-lago, staffers that weekend and the first weekend of march scrambling to almost carry out an intervention when the president got back from mar-a-lago to drive home to him, how urgent this was and how some action had to be taken. we're talking about in march and that weekend, the president, i was there covering him. he spent the weekend golfing and vie the vice president was meeting with cruise line executives and the president's biggest concern then what would happen to the

cruise passengers brought back into the u.s.? this has been a continued theme, push and pull and it's going on now in the white house but i can say, yes, there are active conversations to try and figure out a solution. it's not just the president frustrated with the economy but 10 million plus people out of a job right now, too. so we'll definitely be getting guidance this week further on that. >> yeah, i know. we absolutely need to make sure we don't lose sight of that reality, although, i do think the public health experts we heard from this morning are saying look, we still have to put at the end of the day people's health and safety above all else. kareem john pierre, vice president biden wrote an op ed in the "new york times" pretty straightforward, not a lot of flame throwing in line with his overall campaign message of attempts to return to normalcy but he makes some statements here. you know, first, we have to get the number of cases down and

there needs to be wide spread and prompt testing and third, make sure the hospitals and health care systems are ready for flairups of the disease. do you see evidence? those are not politicapolitical. those are basics. every expert says these are the sole laugss s to solution to get the country back to work. is the government focused on these and the president? that testing piece sticks out in particular as an area where we keep hearing you can get a test but the evidence simply isn't there. >> look, kasie, trump failed at every level of this crisis when it comes to preparedness, he failed there. when it comes to response, he failed there, and wanting to open up the country by may 1st is incredibly dangerous and deadly and that is against every nearly every expert out there who have said it is not time. we need to put people's health ahead of the economy. and when you talk about, you know, opening up the country and look at countries who are like

south korea is opening up their country but there is one thing they have that we haven't done very well, which is testing. and that is really our original sin if you think about how this has gone by the last several months is the testing. we keep getting haunted again over that one thing that we just haven't gotten right and it's because of the president of the united states and the thing about this, too, he was warned in january. he was warned in february by his own policy advisors and he ignored it. we're at tens of thousands of people in this country alone who are dead and if you think about opening up this country after may 1st, there are parts of this country who will not reach their peak until after may 1st. you had the mayor of d.c. who was on this morning and said they're not going to reach their peak in d.c. until june. that is a long ways away so

look, we have to focus on public health right now. we cannot -- i understand the economy. i get that. but we have to be making sure people are healthy and people are safe before we can go down that road. >> all right. shannon petty piece thank you for your time tonight. we'll have much more conversation coming up. still to come, the new york city 9/11 system -- excuse me, 911 subpoena g 1 system gets a y 15 seconds and the stream is taking the toll. if we hope to emerge from this moment, the answer may lie in labs like this one in los angeles where this weekend they are doing critical anti body testing. we'll talk to a doctor at the center of the study about how their research could help return american life to something resembling normal. (burke) at farmers insurance, we've seen almost everything that can happen to your home...or car.

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wide spread anti body testing may be a key factor in the effort to return the american way of life to something resembling normal. scientists are rapidly trying to refine a blood test that determines whether someone has ever been infected with the coronavirus. in los angeles, 1,000 people were tested for those antibodies over the last two days. thanks to a study conducted by usc and los angeles county. joining me now is dr. paul simon, the chief science officer for the los angeles county department for public health

leading the l.a. county team working on that project. dr. simon, thank you so much for being here tonight. i know there are so many americans who are waiting on every development in the research that you and others across this country are doing in this critically important work. we explain where we stand from your research in terms of can we actually identify these antibodies? is it reasonable to think this is something that could be widely available soon and can people who felt they had the coronavirus, can they feel confident going out into the public they can't get reinfected? >> well, let me first start with our study. as the earlier speakers mentioned, we're actually operating in the dark right now. we have very limited information based only on those who have tested positive for covid-19 with the pcr test. most of those folks quite ill.

the anti body test will give us a full scope of the epidemic in los angeles county and across the country because it measures whether someone has ever been infected with the virus. so it's an extremely important tool for us in public health but to your question, i think for individuals, as well, i think it provides useful information. it will allow someone to know whether they have been infected in the past, whether they do have anti body based on what we know about other infections, we think they will have some protection from that anti body. there is a lot of research underway now, though, to fully understand how strong that protection will be and how long lasting that protection will be. >> i think a lot of people are probably worried in terms of their ability to have faith that these tests will not only be rolled out widely but will actually work. we know that it was bottleneck the test for coronavirus here in

the u.s. was bottlenecked inside the cdc. how is it working in the development of these anti body tests? is it something now you feel confident that you'll be able to roll out if you have the opportunity? how involved is the government or not in what you guys are doing? >> so i feel comfortable we'll be able to roll out the tests as far as surveillance purposes. whether it will be able to be rolled out on a scale to allow millions of americans to be tested remains to be seen. there are many tests coming to the marketplace right now. i think our big concern is a variable quality. there is not a lot of oversight as these tests get rolled out. we're very concerned that there may be false positives and false negatives and when you're dealing with an infection that despite it's severity remains limited to probably a relatively small percentage of the population, even a small rate of inaccuracy in terms of false

positives can very much misled individuals. we don't want people to be tested, have a positive result and then believe they're protected but in fact, because it was a false positive turn out that they're not protected. that could be catastrophic. >> what can you share about the study you've been doing? are you getting a sense the spread is more wide spread? >> we look at it and make sure we fully understand it. many more persons have the infection is apparent based on the standard diagnostic covid test. in los angeles 9,000 have been reported with it. i think it will show many more thousands will have had it but i don't want to give specifics until we look at the data more

carefully. >> and very quickly, doctor, do you think we'll find once we have a wide spread anti body testing there were problems with the covid-19 tests? i know anecdotally a lot of people i've spoken to who maybe they live in the same family and two people are sick, one gets a positive test, one gets a negative test. it doesn't make sense to anyone. i think there is concern about the accuracy of those tests. will your anti body screen be able to give us a window into that? >> unfortunately, no test is perfect. there are concerns about the anti body tests and like wise concerns about the pcr test. i think the pcr test potentially is very accurate but the specimen needs to be carefully collected. i think when we do see false negatives, it's often because the swab wasn't inserted deeply enough to get an appropriate specimen to test for the virus. so i think overall in the pca test is pretty good but no test is perfect. >> all right.

well, we are certainly really appreciative of the work that you and your colleagues are doing. we have so much riding on it. dr. paul simon, thank you for spending time to explain what you guys are doing. new york is approaching a grim milestone. the state is now approaching 10,000 coronavirus related deaths after its deadliest week of the pan dedemic so far as em ev -- ems and fire department are struggling to keep up with 700 employees testing positive themselves and with close to a quarter of the work force out sick, front line workers are averaging more than 5500 ambulance requests a day and a new 911 call every 15 seconds. joining me now is president of local 2507 uniformed emts, paramedics and fire inspectors. thank you for being with us tonight, sir. i want to start by first of all, expressing our deep appreciation

for down and everyoyou and ever represent on the front lines of this crisis. all of america is thinking of you right now and so first, i just want to ask you, how are you holding up? how are the people you represent holding up as we enter what seems to be the perhaps fourth, fifth week of this intense crisis in new york? >> hi, good evening. thank you for having us on. we're holding up. our people are holding the line. they are extremely exhausted not just physically but mentally. they're constantly seeing death in front of their eyes on a regular basis the call volume as you mentioned is skyrocketing. we approached at some times over the 7,000 mark. what is really noticeable is that how we went from averaging 70 cardiac arrests a day to 400

a day basically a lot of people we're witnessing dying at their homes, which is dramatitraumati see on a regular basis. >> yeah, how would you say people are? we can imagine it but to go to these situations day in and out and go home to your family and be worried you will infect them. how are you and those you work with holding up trying to manage that every single day? >> i'm sorry. >> did i lose you, sir? >> so we have -- can you hear me? i'm sorry. >> i can hear you, go ahead. >> i'm sorry.

it's extremely traumatizing. our members are talking to each other. we have counseling support. i can tell you when this is over, our people are going to need some serious counsel. they are used to seeing one, two people a day that go into cardiac arrest. now they are seeing five, six, sometimes seven and if they work double shifts, we had a scenario where one individual encountered 14 cardiac arrests in one shift. so we know when this is going to be over, there is going to be some after effects and we'll have to address them. >> i absolutely and we just again want to say thank you so much to all of the front line workers that you are representing. thank you very much for being with us tonight. when we return with the president on tv every day addressing the nation, is the biden campaign ready for the

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even though bernie sanders suspended his presidential campaign, states are still voting. late last night nbc news projected apparent nominee joe biden the winner of the alaska primary scheduled to be held bun week earlier but concerns over coronavirus pushed the party to accept mail in votes exclusively and as biden turns his attention to the november election, there is reporting of a claim of sexual assault from joe biden when he served in the u.s. senate in the '90s and his campaign is calling it untrue. mike and ali join us live. make, let me sta mike, let me start with you and we start with a broad lens and narrow in on the reporting. it been quite a week for joe biden. i want to take a moment to digest that with bernie sanders deciding to step back, a much different sort of landscape for him than the one hillary clinton

faced in 2016, but he also has a number of challenges ahead of him including this president who is on tv day in and day out as well as what you guys have been working on. this allegation. can you walk us through where the campaign stands right now, what their thinking of in terms of how this will unfold in the coming months? >> well, kasie, this is not the campaign that joe biden thought he'd be running at this stage. it is interesting to note that joe biden can now lay claim to being the apparent democratic nominee at an earlier state than anybody since john kerry in 2004. we'll remember barack obama in 2008 and then hillary clinton in 2016 it took until june or even later in the case of hillary clinton for them to really have that moment where they were in the minds of democrats widely seen as the nominee but now of course, joe biden is campaigning from his basement in wilmington.

i'm coming to you from my apartment in washington. this is a different setup. the challengers are the same for joe biden. he has to work hard to unite the democratic party behind him. we've seen him attempt to do that this week by embracing policy propels that were at least a nudge towards the party dealing with a form of free college tuition and relieving student debt. he also has to choose a running mate, of course. that will be something that we talk a lot more about in the coming weeks as biden is set to announce his formal vetting committee, the team that will help him go through that process. we're also not seeing money raised in the same way it usually is. the biden campaign has been working to try to get him out into different forms, different venues via the technology we're all using at the same time but clearly, there is a lot of learning process still underway in that regard. >> ali, let me go to you and

this story you and mike have been reporting out. you and nbc news spoke with tara reid on multiple occasions. what did you learn from her and how is the biden campaign handling this in this moment? >> yeah, kasie, tara reid is a staff assistance in joe biden's office from 1992 until mid 1993. during that too maime she says was actually ha lsexually haras then senator. in april of 2019 reid came forward saying she had been inappropriately touched by biden at the time she was one of several women that came forward with similar allegations and you'll remember, biden who he himself calls himself a tactile politician, he said this he would be more mindful of personal space at the time. then last month reid came forward with a sexual assault allegation in a pod cast

interview she said that she had been sexual assaulted by then senator biden in a quarter of the capitol hill complex in the spring of 1993 when she brought him a gym bag and nbc news has spoken with reid multiple times since she made the allegations. we've spoken with five people with whom reid says she told varying degrees of detail about this story over time. three of them on the record deny knowing or remembering those conversations with her but two of her friends tell me that they remember her telling her -- telling them about these incidents. one at the time, another says that reid told her in the mid 2000s. and look, biden's campaign for their part is staying the alleged assault quote absolutely did not happen. reading a little more of a statement we have from kate bedding field they say he if i werefirmly believes women have a right to be heard and respectfully. what is clear about this claim,

they say, it is untrue. kasie, the most action reid took is going and filing a police report here in d.c. with d.c. metro police. she did that on thursday night. she said it was for an assault that happened sometime in the spring of 1993 but i would point out that those claims are obviously past the time that they can be prosecuted. the statute of limitations is up on that and it also is illegal to falsify police reports. that's what we know at this point. >> it's important we under score the current sitting president faced multiple accusations he denies. thank you both for your reporting tonight. sam stein and kareem john pierre are with me. opinion writing for "the washington post" and msnbc contributor. sam stein on the broad can frost of t -- contrast it's stunning bernie sanders would drop out and hardly a blip on the

newscast. the stakes so high they have so fund mentally changed the 2020 campaign. if you were the biden team how do you grapple with this? on one hand it seems as though perhaps your message of competence sells much, much better. on the other hand, this is a president and we initially saw a bump in his numbers as people look to their leader in a crisis, he now seems to be readjusting and obvious ll lly grappling with historic unemployment. if you're the biden campaign, how do you look at what happens the next couple of weeks? >> well, obviously, we're in unprecedented times politically. the closest parallel i can think of was the close of 2008 campaign when the stock market was collapsing. another parallel may be when hurricane sandy hit in the close of the 2012 campaign. if you remember, kasie, during that race mitt romney was sidelined for weeks on end forced to do these weird publicity events that showed

that he clearly was not able to do the actual act of governance that barack obama was doing on the national stage and then governor chris christie. that hampered mitt romney's campaign. i don't think that was a perfect parallel until now biden is putting out daily i guess you can call them public appearances, broadcasts from his basement to show that he is a president in waiting but the oxygen is about trump and performance he has is determined for the election ahead and on the other hand, biden has to deal with bernie sanders and the people supporting him and may feel disaffected now. it's a weird situation and not sure there is a playbook to get through this and see how it plays off kind of. >> yeah, jonathan, let's pick up on that point sam is making which is the need for joe biden to unify the democratic party it

feels strange to be having that conversation but it is going to be a significant come upon innocent of what democrats need to do in the coming months how do they need to readjust their strategy considering the pandemic? is the playbook here? >> sam said there is no playbook. that is correct. i don't remember a time when a president, there was a presidential election in circumstances like this and so the biden campaign like the trump campaign has to figure out how to reach voters especially the biden campaign because unlike the president he does not have the bully pulpit of the white house to command attention so i think what the vice president is going to have to do is to figure outweig ways to ge himself out there and get the message so american people know

he's there and he has plans and ideas how to move the country, not just forward but to pull the country through the disaster we've been living through the last month. the vice president has been doing the best he can with the cards he has. the of ed of the "new york times" and town halls and anything he possibly can to make sure people know he's there. i think it will be easier for him to command attention and campaign in the ways we're used to with campaigns running. >> in terms of trying to figure out how to knit the split in the party, though, is it possible what we're seeing going on may make that easier simply because

it seems like we're teurning towards policies out of necessity as we grapple with the pandemic. >> yeah, we're in the middle of a crisis and really thinking about health care right now, really thinking about medicare for all. booer really thinking about what is this country need to do moving forward when you think about the people who are dying and getting sick and don't have health care because they have lost their jobs or just never had it and so that is -- those are the things that are really kind of rising up if you will during this campaign, this presidential campaign. look, bernie sanders ran an impressive campaign and inspired a lot of people, millions of people and i think joe biden took a really good first step this week with medicare and student loan debt and how he's moved a little bit more closer to where bernie sanders is and we have to think a lot of other

people are going to come out and vote because of donald trump. but there are some folks who are going to -- not coming and probably stay at home part of that bernie collision. so that's the folks that biden really needs to figure out how to bring over. we are going to need a collision to win in november and as far as the playbook like sam and jonathan just said, there is none so it's not just unprecedented by unpredictable. we don't know how people will vote in november so what i would say is do a little more. go do some blitzing on non-pra digs l media. do some town halls with experts on the economic side and the public health side. do town halls, press conference virtually clearly with the democratic governors and i think the most important thing that happened this week for biden is the two most popular, the two most really effective campaigners are now off the sideline and that is barack obama and michelle ocbama and

those two, you know, are great to have in this moment. >> it's a very good point and will be interesting to see how they do get back out on the campaign trail, especially under these circumstances and vote by mail is definitely something i think we'll tuck aboalk about o show in the weeks to come. thank you for your time. a number of experts say the only way out of this health crisis is extensive testing. we're still a long way away from that. alexis joins me next. what does it mean to be a good neighbor? it means being there for each other. that's why state farm is announcing the good neighbor relief program we know our customers are driving less, which means fewer accidents. so state farm is returning $2 billion dollars to auto policyholders for the period ending may 31st. and we'll continue making real time decisions to best serve you - our customers. because now, more than ever, being a good neighbor means everything. like a good neighbor, state farm is there.

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we still haven't been able to test 1% of the population. we're still only testing those with the most severe symptoms. we're in april. it seems as if this testing problem has been over two months now and we're still looking for invasion here. what went wrong? why are we so -- other countries are testing at a higher rate. >> there is going to be plenty of time to look back on this and i think that's going to be really important. >> that was chuck todd pressing the fda commissioner dr. steven haun on the level of coronavirus testing in the united states. the president also tweeting tonight urging governors to get their testing perfected adding quote there are no excuses. president also said the u.s. is to testing more than any country but as chuck pointed out, less than 1% of the country has been

tested. 2.7 million people. per capita, the u.s. ranks behind 18 other countries with a population of 5 million or more. joining me is senior editor for "the atlantic" and a tracking project alexis. thank you for being here tonight, sir. can we start here with a reality check. what is the state of play with our testing? where we where we need to be? are we doing the right things or not? >> we're extremely behind. we're testing 140,000 people a day in april. we're way, way behind. we got started late and it really matters when you test, not just how many people and at the same time there is critical shortages of supplies, swabs and things that go into the testing process, which is sort of constraining our testing capacity. so we saw a big ramp up through march and in april we saw them plateau and haven't really been able to push past 150,000 tests

a day. the u.s. is a huge country and we need a lot more than 150,000 tests a day to safely open up the economy again. >> that was what i was going to ask. what rate do we need to look and say all right, it's safe to go back to work? >> some of the plans have been saying 20 million tests a day. so we're not even on the order of magnitude. those will be other kinds of test. right now we're using rt pcr tests that are quite complicated and unlikely we'll be able to scale those tests to 22 million a day so there will be other kinds. the truth of the matter is it's going to be months before we have this going in a way that plans that are currently on offer contemplated and we knene to get real with the reality. the president said it's on the governors. we cannot do this on a state by state basis. absolutely, no chance of like

defeating this virus going state by state by state. we need a real actual federal response that isn't just shipments that are already going to states like this response and this country has been abomble from the beginning. it continues and the states are doing the best they can but if there is one thing we know, this virus does not respect political boundaries in this way and we're not going to be able to win going state by state and yet, that's exactly what we're doing. >> so if you could write the plan and execute it, what is the perfect world for the federal government to actually un -- you know, unveil, rollout testing on this scale? exa what exactly would you have the president and his administration do to fix the problem? >> a clear and transparent strategy. the state needs to know what is going on.

that's the way the system works. probably not the best but the way our system works. you need massive change in the supply chain and massive increases in the supply mater l materials needed to do this and true cooperation between the federal government and increases in the materials necessary to do this testing. you need true cooperation between the federal government and the states. if you are a state right now what's happening is trust is eroded because of the way the trump administration has been taking supplies away from states that they don't understand, pitting against each other. we have things covered quite extensively. so what you really need you need a national program the states are bought in on and people transparentally know who is getting testing supplies, why, how, et cetera. we need to make more of it here in the u.s. . >> we are hoping that the white house is actually underscoring, listening to this i know there are many health experts at the table who are advocating such

thing, the question, of course, whether our leaders are listening. we are hoping to get americans back to work, this is what it will take. alexis madrigal, thank you for your reporting. we appreciate it. as the number of cases and deaths in the united states continue to rise, the virus is disproportionately impacting minority communities. in new york, hispanics make up 29% of the population. but 34% of those who have died. blacks are two% of the population and represent 28% of city deaths. in houston, texas, african-americans make up 23% of the population but account for over half of the deaths. and in louisiana, african-americans are 33% of the population, but a staggering 70% of the totality -- that faultys. jonathan, let me start with you. i think this is exposing the inequality that we knew existed in our healthcare system, but it

is highlighting it in a way that is incredibly difficult to grapple with. what, in your view, should we be trying to address this to make sure these communities are getting what they need in the middle of this pandemic? >> make it him possible for anyone to turn away. we have known this for a very long time. it's been right in front of our faces. but there have been situations that make it impossible for us to walk away. now we are in the middle of a global pandemic, where half the country or even more is up to date a stay-at-home order and we are seeing that an overwhelming majority of the people who are dieing from this are black and brown, particularly african-americans. and so it's not that they're dying from this pandemic at higher rates, it's that the underlying conditions that make them susceptible to die from

covid-19 have been with them since before covid-19 and coronavirus started laying waste to our country and to people around the world. i think what is required is not just a short-term how are we going to fix this problem right now? we need to step back and take a look at the structural issues here. the structural racism here in order to really grapple with the problem that we are looking at. this is -- what we're seeing by having so many african-americans die from this pandemic is actually something that's laying on top of a very strong foundation and i'm not using that in a positive light. it's a negative foundation. if people without access to healthcare. people without access to healthy foods or clean air or neighborhoods where their children are safe from all sorts of dangers. these are sorts of things that

you know we're going to have to discuss in this presidential campaign. it is not just about getting america, reopening america for an economic purpose or getting people back to work and out of their homes because the economy is crashing. we have to have a serious real conversation about not just how we address pandemics in the future, but how do we make it possible for the american people to survive these things no matter what it is? it is not -- it is unconscionable that in 2020 we have our nation falling on its knees over something that it shaw coming and also the 350epe who have been living under something accessible, if we with deal with healthcare how to deal with jobs and things all coming to light as a result of this, i think it would be a good thing for us to do. >> and kareem, to jonathan's

excellently-made point, this is also going to be about making sure that we rebuild communities half-we are able to bring people back to work in a way that it's also equitable. i read a searing piece in the washington post today about a grocery store owner in the lower 9th ward in new orleans, he says he feels like his grocery store turned into a food pantry. he noted that while the recovery might show up on bourbon street when people feel more comfortable. he remembers what it was like after katrina. it taken, it has never really come back. so how do we make sure if we get to the point we are able to start our economic recovery, this isn't another wave of the statistics that we just put up on the screen? >> yes, so casey, as johnson was saying, look, racial disparity in our healthcare system has always been there. when bad things, awful things happen in this country, it is the black community, the brown community that suffers the worst

and it is not a surprise to those communities and what have you here with covid-19 is that it has exposed this really ugly nasty truth. but before we can even deal with healthcare, the healthcare system and the racial disparities like you were kind of laying out there, we have to deal with the economic inequality. we have to deal with racism inequality. that's how we even move forward and how do we build these communities, how do we build a real issue? we can't have that conversation. that's the danger here. because there is real fundamental foundational issues here that have started almost from the original sin of this country. when you think about slavery. when you think about jim crowe, what has happened over the years in this decade, that led us to this moment. we have to thank you about

economic inequality and race inequality before we can even, even more forward on how to fix this. >> all right. kareem, jonathan i really appreciate having you. when we return, the first checks go out to millions of people this week. senator richard blumenthal joins me to talk about the next wave of relief for americans and american businesses. but first, inside the american hospitals being overrun with patients needing treatment for coronavirus. daisy d.c. back after this. -- kasie d.c. back after this. the world premiere of "trolls world tour"... what? -what? oooo!!!

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welcome back to kasie d.c. it was one week ago since the surgeon general jerome adams predicted this moment. >> next week will be our pearl har more moment, our 9/11 moment, it will be the hardest moment for many americans in their entire lives. >> and this has been a tough week. more than 10,000 americans have died since the surgeon general's warning. tonight there is reason to believe the sacrifices of so many are paying off, new york, new jersey, pennsylvania, some of the hardest-hit states are seeing signs that their curves are, indeed, flattening. and here's another warning we heard a week ago from a very

emergency physician in the bronx at st. barnabas hospital in the bronx. >> well, what can i say? it's the end of the shift. saturday, april 4th. just a horrendous, horrendous shift. we have right now i think 20, 21 on ventilators running here in this emergency department. in the hospital we have less than 90 ventilators running. and we only have a few left to spare. a lot of people are still requiring high concentrations of oxygen. it doesn't seem like it's slowing down, although, we've had a little -- i don't want to use the few words, but a little low right now. which is good because we are able to catch up and get patients upstates to the icu. let's hope we reach that plateau at some point soon or we flatten the curve.

i'm hopeful. >> and joining me now is the president of the medical board at st. barnabas in new york. ernest patti. and dr. steve corwin and emergency physician at brighams and instructor at the medical school dr. jeremy faust. let me start with you, doctor, because that video i think really resonates, really, it's so hard to watch and really i think underscores the xhalgs that you all are facing every day. can you just talk to us about the beeping, the noise, that was overwhelming there. what does that show or demonstrate about the level of things that were going on in that yard behind you and can you tell us whether or not this week, is there reason for the little bit of hope and optimism that we seem to be feeling that we could be actually getting our heads around this? >> sure. first let me say thank you for

having me, kate. i appreciate it. what the first thing you notice when you walk into the emergency department during a period like this is the shear volume of noise and that's due to all of the ventilators and other machines that are supporting life of our patients who are afflicted with covid-19 there in the emergency department. they're all operating at full, max capacity. they all have alarms. they all have beepers. and that was the first thing that hit me when i walked in to you know my shift was just that sheer volume of noise and it was something that you know hits u. then you are also wearing this ppe and it's very hard to communicate with each other because you have to raise your voice up and yell almost to get through to your colleagues who may only be a foot or two away from you. >> dr. faust, can you kind of take us through -- i know you have been looking at and focusing on making sure that the public does, in fact, still

understand the severity of this, i think it's true it's getting through to people. we still hear questions why is it so much worse than the flu? obviously, these pictures are showing people. but for people in new york told hey stay home who have yet to see the paic in their communities, what itself the message that you want them to be hearing right now? >> what i want people to be hearing right now is that the numbers are being revised do unfor the moment and that's a sign that some of the things that we're advocating for is working. not that we are overreacting. it's also very important to tell everybody the truth about what's happening, also to put 245 into context. i do that every day as an er doctor. i try to tell my patients and what it means to move forward. what i'm worried about is we're having this mindset of oh, we can stop now, kind of like if you had a tumor shrinking after one round of chemotherapy, you don't stop. you have to keep hitting that however and over. that's what i want people to know is we're just beginning to

see that the strategies are working. now is the time to say, keep at it. >> and dr. corewynn, are you seeing the evidence in your hospital system that this initial effort is working? and what would you say to our leaders about what the next steps should be in. >> well, we're seeing some flattening. there is no question about that. but i would agree with what was just said. nobody should be ready to bite the ball right now. i don't want anytown, hamlet or county to go through what new york is going through. you have to remember, if you are hospitalized with this condition, you have a 15% chance of dying. let's put that in perspective, our most cardiac cases at most have a 10% chance of dying. if you are on the icu on a ventilators, you have a 40% chance of dying. this is a lethal disease and although it might not have

affected other part of the country the way it's affected new york city, god forbid it should happen that way. we don't want it happening. the flattening of the curve reflects, let's not fight the bullet. let's continue to do social distancing. let's put our pedal to the metal. >> dr. patti, you lost a colleague to covid-19, somebody that works with your own family, you have a very personal relationship and story to tell, not just in the er, but from a personal perspective as well, what would you say to policy-makers who are now trying to strike this balance of when to reopen and how to re-open the economy with making sure we don't see more cities that are facing outbreaks like new york's? >> i have to, yes, that was $ronald verier who passed very unfortunately. i would have to say i agree. we have to be -- this is the

time for increased vigilance. we can't back off now. people cannot say, okay, it's flattening, we can go out and get in large gatherings and resume our formal lives. this is soup were important we have to stay vigilant and on top of this and the policy-makers need to understand that. i understand that the economy needs to get restarted and things need to get back in motion. but viruss are very tricky and they're very adept at changing and mutating and we do not want to have a resurgence of this infection because we let our guard down and we got lacks and a-- lax and allowed tour regulations to relax. >> dr. corwin, a lot of things people are hoping for as they watch the news, nervous and upset about all of this every day, the hope for a treatment and, of course, eventually for a vaccine. the president of the united states has touted repeatedly

hydroxychloraquine as a possible treatment for this. we know the studies don't back this up. the president has said you got nothing to lose if you try this. what is your assessment of what he has had to say about the use of this drug in this context? >> well, we just don't know. we need -- we need real clinical trials to determine what works at what stage of the disease does it work? can it do more harm than good? look, hydroxychloraquine is not a placebo. it can have negative side effects. we also don't know if are you giving it in this circumstance whether it can make somebody worse. i am very circumspect that 23 have a image it bug et now. i'm hope -- bullet now. i'm hope swrek a vaccine him you are looking at 20-21 what we are at the point to talk about vaccines and medications where we can show that it actually works. so i'd be very, very circumspect

about touting a cure at this point. >> and dr. faust, quickly, before we wrap up here, one potentially under covered element of the crises unfolding in our hospitals is a shortage of medication. can you explain your concerns about that? >> yes, this is possibly the next thing coming down the pipeline. we should have been ahead of testing and ppe ventilator capacity. now is not the time. let's get ahead of this, medications that intubate patients, sedation medications and pain medications are running low. so even if we have everything that i need to save a life at the front line, i can't do it if the medications run out and at the rate we're going through them, it's a very real concern. there are things that we can do to address that now, to find the bottleneck in the pipeline so that we actually for the first time in this crisis are ahead of a problem instead of trying to play catch-up.

>> casey. >> yes, please. >> i couldn't agree more. we're short on fentanyl on paralytic agents, because we have so many patients that are ventilated. we are running short of dialysis solutions, so many require dialysis who have this disease. so the doctor is exactly correct. this has got to be an all hands on deck in terms of the drug supply as we move forward so i apologize for interrupting, but that's a critical point. >> thanks for jumping in there. >> i agree. >> i will put this to the policy-makers we are about to speak to. to see where that stands, thank you all both for being here and also for the incredibly difficult work you are doing on all of our behalf. thank you. joining me is democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. senator, it's great to see you on the program. i hope your family is healthy and well. i am hoping that you can update us on what is the latest that

you are hearing about -- let's start with the help that you guy versus already tried to send to americans. we are hearing these checks are supposed to be coming out this week. so far we haven't heard many of the people who have gotten them, the loan program, also several small business owners in my own life who have applied who are desperate, because they feel they can't make rent. they still haven't gotten that money in their accounts yet. when are people going to see the relief you guys are trying to sends their way? >> that is a great question, kasie. thank you for this program and thank you for having me and i hope you and your family and all your listeners are well too on this easter holiday and passover. the point is that the rollout of this program has been fraught with slowness and snafus. we were promised that checks would be in the maim or deposited by now and those payments still for most, the vast majority of americans have

not been made and small businesses have already just about exhausted in terms of the applications the $350 billion for the paycheck protection program and hospitals are just receiving origining to receive the 130 billion that is necessary for them to continue operatingrobustly. and there is a lot of work to be done. the point about the shortage of medicine is the next looming crisis for this healthcare system that is already deeply challenged. but this shortage of critical medicine fentanyl, for example, has been around for a long time. i first embraced it when i became a senior ten years ago. it is a sign that the pharmaceutical drug industry is

not working in terms of the supply chain we are seeing now. lit have huge deep ramifications in this panden dmicpandemic. >> let me pick up something you said about the small lending program, the funding is nearly exhausted. republicans moved this week to try and add more money to that fund by a unanimous consent. democrats went down to the senate floor and said no why not give that money to the small businesses right now? >> well, in fact, not only that money, but actually twice as much as $250 billion ought to be designated. we contend it's about $500 billion that will ultimately be necessary. but more than the small business paycheck protection program is the need on the part of those hospitals. because i have talked to just about all the hospitals in our state of connecticut and they

have seen plummeting revenues because they're doing, many through elected -- states seeing declining contributions because their majors contributors have seen losses on the market and increased pay load. they are really deeply, deeply in need of more than the $130 billion. we also want aid to go to state and local government. you've heard governors who are taking the lead. they have been so forthright and courageous saying that they need $500 become that's compared to just the $150 billion that congress provided in covid-number 3. we're not saying no in this program. but do more. >> so when are you going to do more? i mean there is no end in sight for this. we have heard april 20th as a possible return date. nobody seems to think that is realistic. when is congress going to send more aid? >> there is a real possibility of serious negotiations this week involving senator mcconnell

the majority leader as well as chuck schumer who have been reallysteadfast and eager to replenish that small business account and also meet the hospital and the state and local needs and i think even before the next package, a fourth package this week we could well see serious and productive notion negotiations. >> all right. we will, of course, be keeping an eye on that and on the phone since we are no longer seeing each other on the halls of capitol hill. senator richard blumenthal stay well with the doctors in your home state, connecticut. we do want to get to breaking news out of the southeast. we are watching lines of severe storms and tornadoes in mississippi, there are at least six dead so far in morris and jefferson counties. first responders are still out working in tyler town mississippi where five homes are flattened according to 9 learn dispatcher. look at this footage out of upon

row, alabama. are you see fallout from the storm. we have video of dark funnel clouds in jasper, alabama. it will be a very long night in the south. sorry to be the bearer of bad news. we have much more to come, the story of jon meacham joins me to put this moment of american history into context. later a disastrous paradox in america. empty she was in grocery stores as farms are forced to destroy tens of millions of pounds of fresh food that they can't sell. kasie d.c. is back after this. (mom) were you planning on mowing the lawn today? [thunder] (son) no. (burke) seen it. covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. so get a quote at farmers-dot-com. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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coronavirus projections continue to shift and most are moving in a more positive direction. at least for the moment. according to a leading model from the university of washington, the projected number of deaths by late summer has decreased by tens of thousands, but there are also some grim numbers to take into account. four weeks ago today there were 67 coronavirus deaths reported in the united states. today that number stands at more than 21,000. joining me now the president of the global virome study and dean of medical medicine doctor, it's great to have you. let me start with you mr. carroll, dr. carrol, you,

the projections that we're looking at, right, this is such a critical piece of how americans are understanding it and our policy-makers are making decisions. they are getting better, it seems. what would you say to people who are looking at these projections about whether or not this means that we can move towards trying to go back to work towards trying to reopen the economy? how quickly could these projections change if we do that too quickly? >> great. well, thank you. well, first off, these projections are promising. but we also have to understand that the idea of beginning to reduce the kind of very serious restrictions we have on physical ber actions between people. they need to -- intik interactions between people, they need to stay in place until we can bring a much higher level of diagnostic capability to be able to track and follow the

virus. and so as we go forward and we begin thinking about relaxing many of the restrictions, the federal government has to do a much better job in ensuring adequate supplies of diagnostics. the 150,000 diagnostics per day we're currently operating at are at least an order of magnitude lower than what needs to be available if we are able to make sure that as we begin reducing these restrictions, when an outbreak begins to occur and they will occur in different parts of the country, we have to be able to identify them quickly. we have to be able to follow the outbreaks. we have to be able to control them and put them out. we cannot do that without diagnostics. right now we are woefully short of adequate supplies. >> i think this is probably a part of dr. cortez what's behind some of these scenarios you have been putting out on twitter in

terms of what american life might look like this summer. i mean, take us through based on what we know about where we stand on testing and contact tracing and all the rest about what you think our summers will look like this year. >> right. so, i agree we everything dr. carroll said. and the situation is as follows, the following, we now are at the -- around the peak in the united states, although it differs in different parts of the country. but being at the peak means with we are still at about the halfway point in terms of significant numbers of people dying on a daily basis so you have that projection up there that shows a plateau. but, in fact, if you look at the graph of the daily deaths, it goes up very sharply and it starts to go down. it really starts to decline significantly through the month of may. so, if we're involved in making that decision in washington what i would say, look, give it a few more weeks. but what it really declines to

bottom out around may, then that will also buy the states more time to get ready for all of the diagnostic testing that's going to be needed both the anti-body tests, the point of care tests and also doing some of what we cao surveillance, which allows to you identify parts of the country where you are seeing fever pop up. i think right now, it's a little too soon to lift all of that social distancing. i think another few weeks can make a big difference for the country. then we will see what happens as we move later into the fall or next year, whether the virus as some have been saying may come back if periodic waves for the next couple of years. >> yeah. dr. carroll, how much do you trust the data that we do have right now about this? there has been some reporting in the "new york times" that feel are using different ways to count deaths from the disease

that the toll could, in fact, be a lot higher than we know? how much does that relate to decisions to what to do next? >> it matters quite a lot. first off, we are clearly under reporting the number of deaths. that's largely an inadequate supplies of diagnostics. but to be able to control this disease, you need to know where it is. if you don't have diagnostics, you are really fighting this disease blind and you know, in april, this is really inexcusable and as there is serious discussion going on now about the accelerating, the control measures that are out there. it would be grossly irresponsible if we do that continuing to be blind. if we don't know where the virus is, we don't know who's infected, then our ability to control its spread is grossly compromised. and the key to this are the various diagnostic tests that

peter was just talking about. and this is where we have been hampered over the last three months, really the lack of the federal government taking charge and really assuming this as a national crisis requiring national coordinated action. as we move forward, the federal government needs to begin assuming the responsibility it should have assumed four months ago. and put in play not just a national strategy for how we begin to run down the severe measures that are out there, but how do we make sure that every community in this country has had" supplies of diagnostics, so that we understand where the problem is, where we need to act, and how we can do it. >> this certainly has a very long way to go. thank you both very much. i am sure we will be talking to you in the weeks ahead. thank you. just ahead, the story of jon meacham is going to help put

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a number of people have said it. but i feel it actually. i'm a wartime president. it's a war. a different kind of a war than we've ever had. >> quote history will honor this man for many thing, however wide the disagreement of many of his countrymen with some of his

policies and his actions. it will honor him above all else because he had the vision to see clearly the supreme crisis of our time and the courage to meet that crisis boldly. so wrote the "new york times" 75 years ago today on the death of president franklin delano roosevelt. the paper continues, quote, it is a hard and stunning proceed to move the genius and the inspiration of his leadership in this decisive moment of the wart. joining me now is presidential historian and msnbc contributor jon meacham. it is always great to see you, sir. let's just start with that contrast you heard the president of the united states now and then how the "new york times" describes the passing of fdr, what does it tell you about the differences between these moments in our history? >> well, it's 75 years ago today, late afternoon, as the word came that fdr had died at warm springs. and that night, the editorial

you just read was written, another part of it said, men will thank god on their knees 100 years from now that franklin roosevelt was where he was when the crisis came and it often people accused folks like me of nostalgia of looking back through rose colored glasses. that was on that day, that deadline, philip graham, once described journalism as the first rough draft of history. that is born out. it is virtually impossible to imagine that we will in anyway have those kind of accolades about the president, the incumbent president either in real time or in ret fro spec. it's not for any partisan reason. it's just the pacts. the facts of the matter are and the "new york times" brilliantly reported on it today, the facts are, he was slo eto'o respond. he dislikes reality that doesn't

comport with his pre-existing narcissistic view of himself and of his role in the country so there is a kind of willful suspension of belief in the efficacy of facts. that could be sort of an interesting intellectual point if people weren't dying. i think we're at the beginning of understanding what the wages of that will be politically and culturally. really beginning a couple weeks ago heading into november. >> when we think about how the history books are going to write the story of this time, i think it's impossible not to pleeven that the decision that were made that the "time's" outline you mentioned and dr. fauci were talking about will be a critical piece of how we understand unfolded, i'm curious, we know

other presidents, certainly barack obama, george w. bush as well, they made a decision towards history and legacy. we know this president thinks about his cable news chyrons and the headlines in the paper the next day, how do you think he grapples? do you see any signs of him grappling with the history that is being written right now? >> it's one of the great questions. i am flummoxed. po per pitchually number moc-- perpetually flummoxed. why is it the president doesn't think what people will say to him in the fullness of the time as opposed to the chyron of the moment. there is this great thing in 1965 when the montgomery march was brutally broken up by alabama state troopers and sheriffs deputies and lyndon

johnson has george wallace. the governor of alabama come to the ofg office. he was put on the couch, he sat over him and leaned over. and he said, george, think about in 1988, have you 25 years from now, do you want people to say, george wallace he hated or george wallace he be it? and actually that helped that moment, because wallace did care this guy, the president's incumbent does not. and my own vie and i think people have said this to him privately, is use the vanity card. right? let's sue leave aside that it's -- let's just leave aside it's right. if i said one thing to the president, it would be if you look back as you say at recent history and in the fullness of time, you see that the president's we remember warmly are the presidents who surprise their base, who bring their base from point a to point b?

nixon and china, right? what's the central thing you quote about george w. bush now is less about the ground zero moment and more about when he went to the mosque that week and said he deplored hatred towards muslim. johnson was so right. he was from a segregated state. that cast a longer shadow and you benefit. so it's a two-fer. but he has had almost no interest in that. and i think that's one of the puzzles of the age. >> no, it's a very good point and i think in our incredibly divided time, it's both demoralizing and also stunning that we are all kind of united in this common experience we are going through in a pandemic. certainly a nation celebrating

holidays, passover and easter in ways none of us could have imagined and how this president will be remembered based on the digs he's already made and ones still to come. thank you as always for your long view of american ristory, stay safe and well. when we continue, a remarkable paradox, food going to waste in empty fields and empty she was in grocery fields, as one of the food producers smithfield plants is shutting down a pregnant while more than 80 workers tested positive for the coronavirus. and sam's donuts forced to close permanently after 55 years. former secretary tom vilsack talks to me next about america's struggle to put food on our tables. two day shipping on thousands of items. even the big stuff. and doing everything it takes

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truck drivers are all working around the clock to keep the american supply chain intact. now some farmers find themselves dumping out thousands of gallons of milk and destroying and plowing over a ton of perfectly good produce because they are unable to sell more than half of their crop with restaurants and businesses closed. tom vilsack was also agriculture secretary with the obama administration. it's great to have you on the program, mr. secretary. i'm hoping we can simply start by explaining to people what is going on here? where do these farms feel they have to do this? why are they in this position when a lot of people are struggling to find milk or eggs on the she was at their local store? >> well, there are a couple reasons, first and foremost, essentially the food service operation in this country has been shut down. fast food restaurants, restaurants generally have been shut down. the school meal program is shut down in part because schools are

no longer opened for lunch for kid. that is a significant strupgs to the supply -- disruption to the supply chain. in reality, we haven't been able to reconfigure are utilized by those in need. that's why it will be important for the department of agriculture to use its resources, purchasing power to buy up those commodities, get it into a system that gets it into a food bank so it can get on people's tables. the second issue at the grocery stores i think assumes there would be a disruption in the supply chain and maybe found it difficult to think that, in fact, there would be product available. in reality, there is a lot of product available, it's making sure they don't artificially put limitations on what people can buy in the grocery store? yeah. it did occur to me watching this, it seems like the only person or entity, not person

that could solve this problem would be the next. what kind of powers currently exist for the government to use and if they do have the power to buy these crops to keep the farmers afloat, do they have the infrastructure to move the crop somewhere or is that piece of the puzzle still missing? . >> well, they clearly do because of the law passed by congress a week or so ago. they have the capacity now from a financial standpoint, but the reality is they have to make a determination of what commodities to purchase. then they have to determine are they going to store those commodities or distribute them? if they distribute them, are they going to distribute them to food banks capable of receiving them. it may well be food banks get rid of a lot of milk but don't have the refridge racing capacity to hand am high volume of milk. so we have a mismatch between the need and the folks that are able to respond to the need. one of the things the usda needs to think about are creative ways

to maybe change the dynamic a little bit. change the modem. maybe it's about telling a dairy processing facility to pull a truck up to a food bank and essentially allow that refrigerated truck to be the refrigeration or that milk supply and figure out a way to bottle it and distribute it to people in need. or maybe they can work with the food service industry to convert those empty currently unoccupied food service operations into a feeding site thereby using the produce, using the products the federal government can purchase. finally they need to look for ways in which they can compensate the farmers for the damages they are currently suffering. no fault through the farmer. this virus obviously is a terrible thing and we are obviously dealing with it in a variety of ways. many diss are being helped out. so, hopefully, there is a way in which the federal government can provide direct assistance to the farmers who have been hurt the most by this terrible, terrible

situation. >> yeah, quickly, i was going to ask you about just that for your home state of iowa, where this is such an important piece of the economy. what are farmers going through right now? do they have the help they need? and what are they asking the government for in. >> well, they're asking, i think specifically they have obviously been hurt in iowa by the trade issues. they have been hurt by the decisions made by the administration on ethanol and the epa's decision to essentially favor the oil companies. so they have been hurt in a couple of different ways. now they've got the virus. they've got plants, processing plants shut down or work force reduced because of the virus. there is obviously angst and concern. the federal government can provide direct resources, can purchase surplus products, can figure out creative ways to use resources to redirect product that would otherwise be dumped or destroyed into a food bank. so there are a lot of ways in

which the federal government can provide assistance. but the reality is that today many of these departments of government aren't adequately serviced and staffed. they have a lot of empty positions that haven't been filled for some time. and now, they have the other consequences of not being able to work collaboratively together in the same building in the same room to talk about ways in which they can deal with this issue. so eighth tough challenge. -- so it's a tough challenge, no doubt about it. the federal government is in the best position to provide help on the food side of the impact of this virus. hopefully the fda will be creative, innovative. hopefully they will be flexible so people can create a number of different feeding sites. >> all right. tom vilsack, thank you so much for your expertise this evening. here's hoping they are going to be creative and get it to people who need at this time most. >> thank you. by one measure the cook county in chicago is the largest known source of the largest

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nine inmates have died. six of those deaths happened at the federal facility in oakdale, louisiana. chicago's cook county jail has become the largest known hot spot of coronavirus infections. according to data compiled by "the new york times." joining me now senior counsel at the brennan center for justice and former commissioner at the new york city department of corrections martin horn. lauren, let me start with you. thank you both for being here. lauren, what is at stake here inside these prisons where you have people who simply don't have the capability to do what the rest of us are doing in social distancing, who obviously do not have the choice to leave, and who are facing incredibly difficult circumstances as the virus makes its way via prison workers inside the walls. >> you are absolutely right.

all of us living in the community are told to wash our hands for 20 seconds, disinfect, practice social distancing by standing six feet or more apart n. our jails and prisons incarcerated individuals sleep double bunked, triple bunks, sharing toilets and sinks. an inspection by the mississippi health department last summer found that one of the state's largest prisons had dozens of broken or missing sinks, broken toilets and bathrooms with no soap. so this is a public health crisis behind bars. there are over 1,300 confirmed coronavirus cases tied to prisons and jails across the u.s. cook county is the nation's largest known source of covid-19 infections in new york city where i live, in new york city, the department of corrections reports at least 287

incarcerated individuals who tested positive. 440 employees who tested positive. this is certainly a public health crisis behind bars and this is because we have more people in our prisons and jails than any other country on our planet. our conditions of confinement are lacking with 2.1 million people behind bars, we're going to see more and more people infected in our jails and prisons. >> martin, what are the public policy tools we should be using right now to try to address this? we've seen some pushes to let nonviolent offenders out of our prisons and jails, for example. what, in your view, are the humane things to be doing right now? >> well, there's no question but that we have to thin out the population in our prisons and jails. social distancing is difficult

if not impossible. the state and federal governments have failed over time to invest in the necessary infrastructure and preventive maintenance. the facilities are old. they are difficult to maintain. so having fewer inmates certainly would help but at the end of the day there are always going to be some people who will have to be in prison and for those people we have an obligation to ensure we have very robust medical services available and that we ensure they have the opportunity themselves to keep themselves clean, living quarters clean, to have as much distance between them as possible. >> just to follow up on that, reading about shortages of

protective equipment across the country. should inmates be given masks or other gear, mr. horn? >> i think the inmates should be given whatever is appropriate for the public and under the circumstances. if we're supposed to be wearing masks, they should be wearing masks. if they should have access to things they need to sanitize their living quarters, they have to be given that. whatever we require, they require. let's not forget about the health care staff who work in the prisons and jails. we know the situation in the hospita hospitals, in our metropolitan areas. you can imagine the ppe in jails is even more dire. >> sir, i'm so sorry to have to cut you off but we are up against a clock tonight and i am sorry we do have to close down this very important conversation. thank you both so much for being on tonight.

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