♪ we have a full icu. we have every patient in here on a ventilator. everybody has coronavirus. some people also have heart attacks at the same time. this happens and it make things even harder.

>> patient flowing into the emergency room day after day, hour after hour. it's mass casualty incident that just won't stop. >> i said the firpent the firsts of my night intubating and chest tubes. >> some are turning around and that incredibly reassuring. >> we begin tonight's show once again what life is like for the medical staff of the front lines of this fight. we i think it's important for you to see it every day. i'm chuck todd continuing on msnbc breaking news coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. we are starting with today's white house briefing at the white house. could be different. it's a rose garden setup right now. we expect the president to announce a second task force he says will be focused on reopening the economy. i'm curious to see who the members of that task force are to challenge every level of government right now is trying to wrap its arms around. how do you safely reopen parts

of the economy amid a global pandemic without a vaccine or reliable tests? as if that challenge isn't daunting enough, in addition to managing the virus, officials also have to manage the president. right now, he appears to be angry and defensively playing loose with the facts as he looks toward november. the briefing yesterday, president trump falsely claimed he has the absolute and, quote, total power to reopen states. a complete reversal from his own recent insistence that the states were the ones responsible for shutting things down. in a new interview with the associated press the nation's top infectious disease expert dr. anthony fauci said how unprepared we would be to open the country. he told the a.p. this yet. quote. a vaccine still may be a year to a year and a half away.

that is a lot of no unknowns, folks! a conference call yesterday with governors, the white house coronavirus task force coordinator dr. deborah birx reportedly said we should have one 3 million tests these past three weeks just in state labs but the actual number of in those state labs was just 200,000. why is that? a lot of it has to do with supplies. colorado governor gavin newsome announced their framework to e social distancing to measures and said it's too early to talk about a time line because their public health infrastructure is not where it needs to be. translation? testing. it's a case all over the country. we surpassed 25,000 confirmed deaths and more than 600,000 confirmed cases and new york city revised death count to include an additional 3700 people presumed to have die from the virus which means the city has passed 10,000 deaths and

some of these are folks never got to a hospital, dead on arrival, things like that. here we are with no rway to answer the basic questions who hat virus, who might have some level of immunity from getting it again. oh, by the way, where is the virus today? that's what we don't know. we always seem to know where it's been but not where it's going. bottom line we wait for today's briefing at the white house. federal, state, local lords find themselves navigating two unpredictable forces. one is the virus and the other is the president. joining me now is one of the east coast governors joining forces to coordinate coronavirus reopen plans is governor phil murphy. he joins me now. governor murphy, let me ask this question this way -- can you imagine you'd be doing this if you had a partner in the federal government that you were more comfortable relying on? >> good to be with you, chuck. listen. i think it's and/both to be honest with you.

i don't think it's you either go a regional path or you only go when the president says it's okay to go. i think you've got to find common ground between both of those realities. we are the densest state in america. we sit in the densest neighborhood in america. we shut our states down in harmony. it makes sense, particularly as you rightfully point out in your introduction, there is a lot of health care infrastructure that we need before we can have the confidence to reopen, particularly around testing and contact tracing. so that seems to me to be a reality that we live with. an equal reality there is no replacing a robust federal government role. there just isn't. and we need both. we need both a strong neighborhood and we need a strong federal government playing that existential role over the federal government can play. >> you're not known as a preliminary bomb thrower so i'm curious. if the president says i want to

reopen the country and the economy on may 1st and i need you, governor murphy, to reopen. too much of our industry goes through new jersey. i need you to reopen. what would you tell him you needed before you're willing to reopen? >> by the way, the president knows new jersey well. this is one of the state -- >> yes, he does. >> he knows particularly well and personally. i'd say, first and foremost, chuck first of all, in our state and i think our region, we need to have cracked the back of the curve. we need to be coming down very rapidly towards very little, if any, incremental infections. i'd say as a general ask for what we would need, we would need the large-scale rapid testing in place that we don't have now. we just need that and i think we all agree with that. we need to know -- you know, once you eliminate community back in the back door and the

only way that can't happen is if you've got reliable large-scale testing that you can get results on quickly, and then have a contact tracing quarantine plan you can follow-up just as quickly. it seems to me you can't have the confidence to reopen without that kind of infrastructure. >> you know, governor, it's not lost in me that in your backyard where i think johnson & johnson headquarters are in your backyard you probably have some of the brilliant scientists in the world working on this stuff, yet, for all we know the best antibody test may be invented in and around the princeton area. why is it we cannot scale up this testing issue? is it swabs? how much of it is material? and how much of it is actual physical people? >> i think it's all of the above, chuck, honest. i think the good news feels like is feels like innovation is

bursting at the edges and please, god, some of that hits and hits quickly. a lot of good work, for instance, going on on at our state university rutgers. i think it's both physical material that we are light on as a nation. it's the personal protective equipment that somebody needs to have on them to protect them as they are taking the test. and it's health care workers. you know? we are a constant struggle. we have expanded testing as dramically as any american state and, yet, we are not remotely near a universal testing reality. we have constant struggle between health care workers we can put toward testing and those that we need to put forward clearly toward increasingly the past number of weeks toward health care. so i think it's a combination of all of the above, frankly. >> look. i have not met an elected leader that is setting a deadline. the public has to understand what is realistic.

what is realistic in the next three months for residents of new jersey? >> i think, chuck, the reality is the next few weeks of the balance of april, perhaps spilling into early may, we are going to be at the high pitch of the war that we are in. i think may, right now, based on what we can see -- and this completely relies on adherence to continued social distancing. so i'm screaming out to folks in jersey, i know it's frustrating, i know it's taking a lopping time, please stay home. because it's working. and if we -- then we sort of have a may which is not as high-pitched in the fight as april, but it's still sort of a challenging month. i personally think in the warmer weather, we could begin to find our footing. assuming, again, we have got the health care infrastructure especially broad-scale testing that we need to give us that confidence. so i think this is, you know, a june or july, much better reality if we keep doing our

part especially staying at home right now. >> that sort of the way i try to tell my kids. if we do our part now, maybe you can touch the ocean in july and if we do our part maybe football season starts on time but we have to our part now. thank you, governor, for sharing your views and your information on what is happening in new jersey. much appreciate it. stay safe and healthy. we continue to wait for the coronavirus task force briefing, my colleague peterson alexander and moderator of washington week joining me is bob. peter, i'll start with you. what is the reopening task force look like and why is it separate from the current task force? a good question. we are about to find out it seems like more what the task force will look like but appears to be a fluid situation. the president i'm told by senior administration officials in the briefing that will take place

tonight will introduce some nform the reopening the country council. there was reports that ivanka trump and jared kushner would be on it and the president said they wouldn't be on it. he said it would be business leaders and doctors. i think they want this will focus more on the economic efforts going toward including names like larry cud low and steve mnuchin than dr. birx dr. fauci. this is the challenge the president faces right now. he says he wants it to happen soon. easter was aspirational, and now may 1st is the date the president wants to hit. it's not clear what the public officials are advising him if that is a possibility. >> robert costa, we are used to a lot of people around this president try to slowly guide him to something more realistic. but they know they have to let

him scratch and itch. he clearly wants to do something on may 1st. what is the realistic itch that people around him know that he's got a scratch and they want to try to let him do they think will be the less harmful to the situation at hand? >> i've been reporting this all day with my colleagues at "the post." it's clear they all believe that president trump is gunning for may 1st. the question what does may 1st look like in their view? they are talking about reopening the country in phases and feel like they may have some political cover by certain states. you look at governor greg abbott of texas, for example. announced last friday, without much fan fare, he is signing an executive order this week with guidelines about how he is planning to reopen texas. so the thought is if president trump doesn't feel like he is isolated, out on a limb, and some of his aides and business friends will feel a little more comfortable but it's interesting to watch this task force today, based on my reporting, a lot of ceos don't want to be a part of it because of liability reasons.

this fthings happen, resurgence of the virus they don't want to be to the task force saying we were with the president on that decision may 1st or whatever the date is. >> peter alexander, i know both governors kate brown and gavin newsome today laid out plans without a date. you know, can president trump be satisfied with laying out the plans to reopen the government in phases and just say we don't know what date this plan starts? maybe it starts may 1st? maybe it's may 15th. maybe june 1st. this is the plan we are going to use but we don't know what date we get to start the plan. >> you make a good point. one of the things i've tried to drill down with the president in these briefings. what exactly is the sort of standard for you to say you're comfortable reopening the government? we heard that in simple terms from gavin newsome in california today. you have these governors on the east coast and the northeast

specifically. the wes nt coast now making they're plans. president trump said it's coming but not doing this. the briefing we witnessed yesterday is focused on the politics of this as he is about the public health. he really appears enjoyed in some form this feud as andrew cuomo said earlier today, the president seems to be spoiling for a fight after yesterday. he claimed he had total authority to sort of dictate, declare when those states that he said he was going to leave to them, when to shut down and now he is claiming he has the sole power to reopen them. i was speaking with one of his former officials earlier today about the tweet he posted where he described, he referred to mutiny on the bounty, that movie e good old-fashioned mutiny every now and then is exciting and invigorating thing to watch. i asked this former official, you know, why he would talk in those terms, almost describing this as a game when there are more than 23,000 americans dead,

more than -- approaching 600,000 americans who have been sickened by this illness? this official described it as an unnecessary foot foul. but perhaps the president put it best when he was here yesterday and said, i don't mind controversy. i think controversy is a good thing. he almost views every day as its own war. he later back pedals as he did later today saying, no, no, no, i don't believe in partisanship and rely on the governors to do the right thing. unnecessary distraction to say it's lacking any constitutional claim of basis. >> bob, you know, the other thing i'm curious about here with the president is he didn't like the social distancing orders, then his poll numbers went up. suddenly, he was comfortable. now his poll numbers are going down and now he is looking to pick fights. it feels like that isn't a coincidence that this is, you know, donald trump sort of a political day trader at times, right? he is always worried about a short-term fix. what can i do to solve today's problem?

how much of that is this? he looks at his flagging poll numbers suddenly and says this isn't working, i better pivot? >> part of the refrain in the white house among my top sources he can't resist doing these briefings every day two hours. doesn't have the opportunity to do a political rally. so it's scratching the itch for that. it's also trying to have his grievances out in the open with members of the press. his frustration with his poll numbers. even though when he sees the poll numbers about his performance he is not going to stop doing the briefings because he figures he has no other outlet and a source of a confidant i was talking to today. you see the white house trying to get him a little more constrained on the data but as we all see he is going to war with the gomvernors and saying e has total authority. the problem some republicans have told me that many of these governors, democrats and republicans, whether it's gavin newsome in california and larry hogan in maryland, they have credibility and going to war

with them is not like picking a fight in the brady briefing room. you're picking a fight with somebody who has political capital. >> it's not members of congress. look at easier to beat up on congress than individual governors as well. peter alexander and robert costa, thank you both. sorry we had to figure out how much time to manage the president when managing the pandemic is hard enough. that tells you how just shocking at times some of this behavior is in the middle of what we are all dealing with. the white house coronavirus task force briefing is set to begin any moment now. when it does, we will wribring to you live and. ahead, test questions. so many experts have questions about the virus and the test themselves. we are digging into the known unknowns next! ext! won't be a new thing. and it won't be their first experience with social distancing.

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as we said, looking for the future and looking toward reopening means looking at one thing -- testing, testing, and

more testing. it's not just about testing sick patients for the coronavirus burbut all we are to do right now but testing others for antibodies and its potential immunity. questions the experts don't know the answers to. here is what dr. fauci told the associated press today. quote. joining me now is infectious decease specialist dr. amesh. this is what is frustrating, doctor, me for a lot of us the last couple of weeks which is that there is a lot of

conversations about a lot of other aspects of this pandemic but the task force, itself, almost seems to have punted the testing issue. is there any possible way of opening up the country without having a better understanding of this virus via a test, via either an antibody test or the ability to scale up diagnostic testing? >> i don't think it's possible to do anything safely without having the ability to test individuals who are sick, individuals for exposure, to be able to actually have situational awareness of where this virus is, where it isn't, where you are in your epidemic curve. when you think about contact tracing and being able to isolate cases when we get to a point where that is possible, after the country has been open, you really have to have testing in a way that we do for for example with hiv test you can get them in the comfort of your own home. we are not quite there yet with testing but it has to be a crucial piece of really complex puzzle as we try to get back to a new normal.

>> what makes the antibody testing so much harder to find a reliable test than the diagnostic test? >> the antibody test relies on your immune system's reaction to the virus. everybody reacts a little bit differently. we are seeing data from china so some people who were infected and pretty sick but no way to measure it. if you have an antibody level above this number, you're protected. if it's below that number, you might not be protected. you have to work that out and we do this for measles, for example, but it hasn't been worked out for coronavirus. it's very different than just figuring out is that nettthe gec material. >> there is concerns maybe it's a lab error, a lot of things we

need to learn but the basic report was this -- people they thought were clear to this virus seemed to, quote/unquote, get reinfected. now there is lots of theories on what that could be. what do you take away from that potential finding? >> it's important to know why they were tested again. that is a key thing. were they getting symptoms again and getting tested? one thing. or were they tested to see if they cleared the virus? we know people may toggle on and off negative and positive with this virus. certain thresholds will call it a positive and certain are negative. it may be on that borderline you have that issue. the other thing is that just by detecting the virus in someone's nose or nasal secretions doesn't mean it's infectious virus. it could be prior in fact, that hasn't cleared. a lot of questions and i don't think this means there is reinfections. we see reinfections with other coronavirus but they occur months after the first episode of this. i'm really looking at those a

little bit suspicious eye. >> okay. now what about the issue of asymptomatic people? meaning if you're asymptomatic, sort of the first time you got it, is there concern that you maybe you didn't -- maybe you didn't get a more vicious version of it? what do we have to learn to know for sure an asymptomatic person during the first time isn't becoming symptomatic or become infected in a shorter period of time? >> this comes back to the antibody test. we have to study those people and look at their antibodies and actually try to test their antibodies maybe in a test tube or a lab setting to see do those antibodies neutralize the virus and are they protective and what level of antibodies do they have and is it babove what we predic is protective? we have to figure this out before we roll out antibody testing everywhere and accessible evidence from it but these are scientific answers that can be answered and we have answered them for other

infectious diseases. >> look. you paint a picture on anybody's antibody testing this is not a panacea. it seems diagnostic testing matters more than anybody's testing. is that fair to say? >> i think antibody will supplement what we do with running diagnostic testing and hospital tracing and hospital capacity. it's going to be basically a complex group of different factors that influence how easily we can open up certain activities. antibody testing is going to be useful but it has to be done properly and we have to have fidelity. there has somebody some fidelity and some assurance what we are getting is a real result from those tests. until we get to that standardization step it's going to be hard to actually say how we are going to use these and i do think this is going to be one of the bigger priorities is trying to really disentangle all of the issues with antibody testing, so we have a solid result we can rely on. >> dr. amesh, thank you for your expertise trying to bring some clarity to this.

i think we are all wanting some definitive answers and what you're basically saying is we don't have them yet and we have to get them. thank you, sir. ahead, the serious threat coronavirus poses to our food supply change. the danger for people who produce our food and to those who are already struggling to feed their families. who are already struggling to feed their families.

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for me, the greatest benefit over the years has been that prevagen seems to help me recall things and also think more clearly. and i enthusiastically recommend prevagen. it has helped me an awful lot. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. welcome back. 438 workers at a pork plant in

south dakota have now tested positive for coronavirus. that's right. 438 workers in one plant. causing smithfield foods, one of the largest pork production companies in the country and one of its largest pork production plants in the country to close that plant indefinitely. a statement from the plant highlighted the possible effect sick workers might have on our food supply chain. quote. well, nbc news correspondent blaine alexander is covering the worker safety at food processing plant plant and supply chain concern. not just in south dakota but in mississippi and alabama. >> the latest thing we have

learned about this the cdc is sending a team there to the smithfield plant you talked about in south dakota to assess the situation. what was to diaper to cause it to close its doors? that comes on the heels of that ominous warning you talked about from the smithfield ceo that essentially this is a ripple effect he fears is only going to grow larger. so, chuck, you know, it's not just that plant there in south dakota. in colorado, we have seen a plant that jbs plant there had to close its doors until at least april 24th after more than 50 people came down with covid-19. right here in georgia, a tyson foods poultry processing plan south of atlanta had to close over the week temporarily because four employees died of covid-19. that tyson plant is one we have been reporting on better part of a week. tyson says they have made improvements but the union says that they are not enough. we talked to workers who describe standing shoulder-to-shoulder on the line, talking about the fact that they are concerned they are risking their lives. what the union is calling for is for them to slow down the line,

give employees a chance to distance. it will slow down productivity but the alternative is more people getting sick or some workers just being too scared to come to work, chuck. the final thing that i want to highlight is that in our talking to people who work in those plants and our reporting, we found two issues. one, that employees, of course, cannot afford to mace a paycheck. so many working for low wages and scared to call out. the other aspect, so many employees who hold these people are undocumented workers. in talking to a group which is a hiss advocacy group say so many workers don't have sick benefits and they are hesitant to raise the flag when it comes to their concerns about covid. >> i'm glad you addressed that portion of it, too. an excellent report there, blaine, on the entire issue. if people saw were reporting previously, the photos that you

got of the supposed extra plastic flaps in between folks on the line doesn't look like it does nearly what it would take to create some socially distancing on that fronted. joining me is president of the rockefeller foundation. he is a chief stcientist for united states department of agriculture in the obama administration. rashaw joins mie now. good to socially distance and see you. let me start one thing to make clear. the meat is fine. the meat is not contaminated. no concern about the virus that way. but walk us through, raj, what folks should expect now that our food supply chain has been disrupted like this? >> thank you for having me and thank you guys for doing great

reporting on this issue. the reality is, you're right. the food supply is safe. this is not a food safety issue. this is, however, a dire worker safety issue and the loss of life is, of course, tragic and sad but the food supply system is concentrated. farm workers and food process workers are essential workers and they need certain protections to be able to work safely. right now, most americans who don't have symptoms, as the segment you just did, simply can't get access to a test and unless we have widespread access to diagnostic testing, plus protective equipment, plus different worker safety procedures inside these facilities and across, you know, industrial processes all across america, we are not going to have a safe and secure food supply and we will not have an economy that is up and running again. we are losing $300 to $400

billion a month because of the shutdown of the u.s. economy and it's tragic for america's working families. >> what does this mean at the grocery store? it sounds like suddenly people are going to -- i guess here is my concern, raj. are these reports going to lead people to start, like, a run on meat for people that can afford to do that? they will freeze it. the people that can't afford to do that, they are out of luck and they are the folks that can't find toilet paper and can't get rice because maybe they live paycheck-to-paycheck and don't have the ability to bulk or don't have the room to store. >> that's right. that train left the station as you know. so that compounds the fragility of our food supply. think of it this way. there are 11 million kids who live in insecure households and 1 in 56 go hungry and 30 million depend on the school lunch program to get their main source of nutrition through the day. and those public programs, school feeding and the

supplemental nutrition program are major conduits of excess supply from food producers to consumers who need them. right now, alongside empty store shelves, we are seeing a lot of dumping and a lot of waste in the food system and those who are happening side-by-side simply because our normal programs of getting food to people in schools is not happening. the schools are not open. 30 million kids are not getting regular access to their nutrition. their families are not getting the supplemental access they would get through that effort, which is why the rockefeller foundation is working with companies and a lot of our longstanding food security partners in america to bring together public and private partners to try to solve that problem. but we need a major effort to make sure these programs reach vulnerable people in america because both the supply and the consumer side of american food system is very, very fragile.

>> all right. so let's go back to the basics here. if you could design this system for the next six months, this food supply issue, does it mean so is it fewer shifts? obviously, it's fewer people inside the plant at any one time. what does that mean for the consumer, you know, hey, get used to it. if you loved your boneless skinless chicken thighs, you're not getting that. what is it that is the real impact some how is it that you'd redesign a system the next six months to limit the amount of the virus spread amongst those workers? >> yeah. so the first thing you have to do is a serious back-to-work workers safety effort that is grounded in socially distancing that is not happening. what is mass excess to tests and sometimes perhaps daily for asymptomatic workers. that hasn't been prove scientifically yet, but we need to leapfrog in a testing

strategy for this country for all of our essential workers, including food service workers, because that is the only way they can go to work and know that they are safe and that folks standing next to them are safe. and appropriate protective equipment and procedures. that is step number one. step number two has to be reinvigorating our systems programs that reaches tens of millions of americans. we should be building partnerships, rockefeller is, with partners like united way and some of the delivery companies to say, let's figure out how to get school meals instead of having them at school, let's get them delivered to kids in their homes, let's use that as a conduit to get to parents and families and let's relax some of the usda regulations to allow for the kind of creative solutions we need if we are going to keep america both fed and sustained through this period of a crisis. that the is the second most important thing we should do. >> former head of the usad,

dr.raj, that ufor your perspective and views on this. stay safe' healthy out there. >> thank you, sir. we are awaiting the white house coronavirus task force briefing. it's now set approximately 5:45. once it begins, we will go to the rose garden live. before they're on medicare. come on in. you're turning 65 soon? yep. and you're retiring at 67? that's the plan! well, you've come to the right place. it's also a great time to learn about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. here's why... medicare part b doesn't pay for everything. only about 80% of your medical costs. this part is up to you... yeah, everyone's a little surprised to learn that one. a medicare supplement plan helps pay for some of what medicare doesn't. that could help cut down on those out-of-your-pocket

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welcome back. we are still awaiting the start of that white house briefing in which we expect president trump will announce on some of the folks he plans on calling on for advice on how to reopen the country's economy. we me now is jason furman who is chair of the white house council of economic advisers under president obama and now a professor at harvard. he is joining me now. all right, jason, so if you were, if this were a different administration you might be tasked with bringing an economic task force. what would you -- what would you want to see on this -- who are

the types of people you'd like to see on a task force on reopening the country? and do you understand why there would be two different task forces? >> i actually don't understand why there are two different task forces. the main people i'd want to see on it are health people, epidemiologists, public health. i'd love to see economists. i think having some experience and understanding of the business sector, certainly matters as well. this will be one of the most important economic choices that we are making insofar as the choice the white house is making is going to effect what a lot of states ultimately choose to do. >> look. let's set this debate aside on what the president wants to do on may 1. we know in some ways, governors will have more say. the virus has a lot more say on this than anything else. how would you go about reopening an economy in this way?

let's assume, at some point, we have enough testing that the ceo or the head of any company can feel comfortable enough letting his employees back, his or her employees back into a room. how would you do it? is it sector-by-sector? is it half measures? how would you go about doing this? >> right. in some sense this is a do-over because we will start this with about the same cases that we had, you know, a month, a month and a half ago -- more than a month ago. and this time we will try to do it right. obviously, the testing and contact tracing is important. it's going to have to be industry-by-industry. even if the government doesn't do it that way, that is what people are going to do. they will not be rushing back into movie theaters, even necessarily into restaurants. it has to be place-by-place. we have to learn as we go. we are going to learn from european countries and watch what they are doing. we got valuable intelligence by

seeing what italy was doing early on in terms of what we needed to do with a lockdown. so we need to watch them. we need to watch other states and we need to be prepared two steps forward and one step back, two steps forward, one step back. this is going to be a process. this is not turning on a switch. >> what is your best -- what is urm best advi your best advice on how to keep money flowing into people's bank accounts to pay the rent and keep the lights on and keep that part of the economy going without making people feel so desperate as if they have to work at all costs? what do you find to be the most efficient way? is it through the unemployment system we already have or is it keeping the direct payments going? how do you envision seeing the next six months on that front? >> yeah. i'm a belt and suspenders person. a lot of these programs by themselves leave some people

out! have some imperfection so i'd rather overcover than under cover. the unemployment insurance is essential to that. extra $600 a week, you know, there have been problems signing up and it doesn't cover health care. it's important to extend it to cobra and gives a lot of workers on working nonsafe situation by protecting them. i think the checks are an extra measure of security. what will be important is making sure that we are extending those measures and continuing them as long as therapy needed. one of our experiences in the financial crisis last time was some of the extraordinary measures i think ended too soon. i don't want to see that repeated this time. we need to stay with it as long as we need to. >> it's photocofunny. i was going to ask what is one of the lessons from the rescue in '08 and '09 and it sounds like you think the biggest one is you can't shovel out too much

money. you can be inefficient about it' pay a political price for that and perhaps a fiscal price, but it sounds like you think error on the side of shoveling out too much money, not too little? >> yeah. i think two lessons. one is the big. error on the side of too much money. that at its max was 3% of gdp in 2010, the fiscal response. this was 9 or 10% of gdp, three times larger and i think that makes perfect sense. the second is make sure you don't end it too soon. people got tired of the measures in 2009. we took a lot of them away when the unemployment rate was still above 8%. i don't want to see us doing that this time. i think the best would be for congress to put in automatic triggers, so longs the unemployment rate stays elevated, we will continue to have expanded unemployment insurance, people will continue to get their checks.

>> you have this standoff going on between congress right now and i think it's one of those that politically i don't think anybody should have the stomach for, but perhaps leaders may have this back and forth. what concerns you the most about that stalemate? >> the cares act came together really quickly. i don't think you and i, chuck, have seen something that big come together that quickly. this one is taking longer, partly, because some of the fights they could have had in the cares act have been delayed to this one. i think far and away the most important issue for this one is aid to state and local governments. they are getting slammed. some of their covid related costs were reimbursed in the cares act, although not all of them. the bigger issue if had you a big hit to your budget how are you paying teachers in september when our students return to school? how are you going to pay for police?

a huge package for states and localities. i think it's really urgent and delaying as they are putting together their budgets is a real problem. >> jason furman, a former chair of the economic of the economic advisers now at harvard university and practicing your sense of social distancing there. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thanks for having me. >> with me now i have white house correspondent kristen welker and nbc news business correspondent stephanie ruhle with me. stephanie, i want to start with you because i know you have had your ear to the ground on the industry side of things. is the president going to have any high profile members of industry publicly? this seems to be one of the issues they're running into. >> well, i can tell you definitive who isn't, mary barra of gm.

i just interviewed her about an hour ago. while she is pleased to announce that gm and ventec are now ready to produce to ship out ventilators, she is not joining the president's economic task force. but here's what's interesting. on friday in the president's press conference, he made it sound like we were going to see this blue ribbon smathering of democrats, republicans, ceos, but everybody wants to get in and open the country back up. and in the list of names that we got is basically a bunch of people that currently work for him. they didn't need to announce an economic task force. they could have said let's have a meeting request at 3:00. we all already work here. and from all the people i spoke to -- >> well, it's a cabinet. stephanie, let me pause you there. i saw that list and thought why doesn't he just announce a cabinet meeting? >> pretty much. they could do it at jared and ivanka's house. they're both on the team and they live together. in all sincerity, all weekend

long i made the rounds, going back to the well of the people sitting on the manufacturing, the ceo councils at the beginning of this administration. and the thing is this. steve mnuchin is right when he said last night 150 ceos are calling in to the white house. no doubt, i'm sure they are, because the way the oversight is structured, steve mnuchin is running it. he has $500 billion of relief money to give out that you bet your bottom dollar all those ceos are calling steve mnuchin, kissing the ring and weighing in, telling what they want done. surely you see ceos calling the white house every day. but do you really think they're going to look to stand with the president and take on that risk? remember, they ran for the hills after charlottesville when they were sitting on those ceo and management advisory boards to t the. they did not want to be taking angry calls from their employees, customers and reporters. they're facing a disastrous situation no matter what

industry they're in unless they're cvs, walmart, amazon or a pharmaceutical company. they've got loads of risk. and they know the president is talking a very big game about wanting to reopen the country, and they want to also. but i tell you, mary barra said it to me an hour ago. i said the president wants to reopen the country. if he does, you're going to go full bore if you get the green light? she said no, she is going to do what they did when they shut down, lean on the health experts. that's all the business people have done. >> kristen welker, i got to think, it's interesting, it was only three weeks ago that the president did an event that had the ceos of walmart, target. it was an impressive group of executives. he announced this high level website that was going to make it so easy to find testing sites and go to target and walmart were going to be offering up their parking lots to create this amazing drive-through testing an rpparatapparatus.

obviously we know that went nowhere. one would assume a lot of other ceos saw those ceos on that dais and thought i don't want to be involved with something the federal government can't deliver. >> there is no doubt about that, chuck. and init does cut both way, because there are also concerns about potential conflicts of interest. we know that white house lawyers were working throughout the weekend to determine what those potential conflicts of interest right be when it comes to bringing the private sector into this task force that is going to be focussed on reopening the economy, chuck. so there are all sorts of challenges in terms of president trump bringing in ceos. but i am told that that's the goal, that that's part of what he is going to announce today, and that it is going to cut across broad sectors. so we'll have to see how that actually plays out. i think you hit at one of the key questions that i will be looking for in this news conference, which is how is this

task force going to work in concert with the first one that vice president pence has been heading up? how are the two going to work together without undercutting each other and without there essentially being more bureaucratic red tape. i can tell you based on some of my conversations over the weekend there is some concern about that moving forward. it is clear, though, that president trump is determined to try to meet this may 1st guideline, despite the fact you already have top medical officials cautioning it might not be realistic, including dr. anthony fauci. it will be interesting what president trump has to say about that. but there does seem to be broad agreement. and jason furman touched on this that if and when the economy does start to reopen, that it will be done in phases. it's not going to be done all at one time. the big bang that president trump was previewing, we'll try to hear what some of the specifics were today. but chuck, i bet there are still

a number of things that haven't been hammered out yet. >> stephanie ruhle -- very quick. go ahead. >> i would just say those ceos know they're going to be under a huge amount of scrutiny from the media if they decide to join this task force. and we'll be looking very closely at what kind of government support they got. think about when the president had that ceo council. who was the point person? it was steve schwartzmann from blackstone. what industry has gotten completely hooked up in this rescue? it's the private equity industry. and let me just say for one second why. after the financial crisis when they put freshl regulation, in the government said hold on, banks can't take this big risk and get bailed out. risk is moving out of the banks. where did it get moved to? the private equity funds. now they're getting hooked up on the downside. they don't want the media talking about that 24/7. so as close as they may be to

president, jared kushner and steve mnuchin, they don't want to be up there next to the president because i promise, we'll all have our notepads out. >> well, look, and stephanie, i wanted to bring up not that previous ceo tests were from '17, but what just happened three weeks ago. could the president get all those ceos back at an even virtual briefing at this point given what has taken place so far? >> yes. listen. of course he can. they're not going to say -- especially the ones who were there, you're not going to see the ceos of target and walmart after they signed on and stood next to him, they have a really difficult line to walk. he is the president of the united states, and all of these businesses are either in crisis or in need of regulatory rollbacks. so they've already said they're going play ball with the president. but remember that very meeting. it was a friday. the president loved it. he signed a stock chart because you saw the stock market go up

right after that. remember, he said sunday night two days later there would be a national website that everyone would use that google was power, and you would know exactly where the testing center was. have you seen it? because i haven't. and i can't imagine that sundar pichai is going to want to -- he didn't stand next to the president on that day. and i can't imagine he wants to stand there today. because kristen welker, if she is in the rose garden, she is going to be asking. >> so kristen welker, this does feel as if we've been in the same situation before when the president wanted to reopen for easter, and he was getting there, and basically an entire week of his advisers gently steering him clear. is this a case where ceos not signing up publicly in some ways are steering him to the go listen to your science advisers because it's the only thing we're going to listen to? >> well, the ceos and the governors as well who president trump has said he is going to work in concert with to try to

make this reopening happening. i think there are similarity, a lot of parallels, chuck, and then there are differences. remember when president trump said he wanted to reopen the economy by easter, it was almost a day later that vice president pence came out and said that that was aspirational. you're not seeing the same type of pushback, and i am told that they trying to lay the groundwork, unlike when president trump said he wanted to reopen the economy easter. that wasn't happening several weeks ago. so that's the big difference in this case. and yet, chuck, the fact remains that you still have top medical officials cautioning him that it might be unrealistic. the big unresolved question is will president trump listen to his medical advisers. he's been asked that repeatedly in these news conference, and his answer is interesting. he says yes, of course i'm going listen to them, but there are two sides to the argument. and he almost preparing and

bracing the country for the possibility that they may advise him against reopening parts of the economy and he may decide to do so anyway. but, of course, i think it's too soon to know, because we have to see what happens several weeks from now when we get closer to that may 1 deadline. but the president characterized this as the biggest decision he is going to make as president. and, chuck, he is not wrong about that, because, of course. >> no, he is not wrong. >> against the backdrop of his reelection campaign. >> and stephanie, i think there real is an ideological disagreement here. i do think you have a lot of what identical small c conservatives, not in a partisan way, but more of, well, this is the price of doing business, or this is the price, that there is a philosophical debate that is real that the president is on the receiving end