good morning, everybody. it is monday, april 20th. we're going to begin over the president's mixed messaging over the stay at home orders. a day after announcing plans to allow governors to reopen their states, protesters called for an immediate end to guidelines tweet and the president tweeting far right protests have formed across several states in recent days. many of them trump supporters.

steven moore, a member of the president's council to reopen the country says he's helping to organize a protest in wisconsin. yesterday, the president seemed to encourage protesters. >> people feel that way, they're allowed to protest. i watched the protests and they were all six feet apart. they were all orderly people. some governors have gone too far. some of the things that happened are maybe not so appropriate. i think in the end it's not going to matter because we're start to go open up our states. >> why is the president trying to undermine the guidance you've been laying out? and that ooze buildihe's been -

out this premise on thursday and he defied it on friday. the tweet seems to imply that he doesn't want to own the responsibility of these necessary shutdowns. >> the american people can be confident that this president wants to reopen the american economy as soon as we can safely and responsible do it. >> and with michigan among several u.s. states where stay at home orders were protested, the governor wittmer yesterday defended the actions. >> michigan right now has the third highest death toll in the country. we are the 10th largest state. this means it is disproportionately hurting our state and that's why we need to take a uniquely aggressive action to protect people.

our actions are working. my stay at home order is one of the nation's more conservative, but the fact of the matter is, it's working. we are seeing the curve start to flatten and that means we're saving lives. >> nearly 6 in 10 americans say the united states is moving too quickly to reopen the country amid the coronavirus. according to a new nbc news "wall street journal" poll, 58% of americans are saying the country is moving too quickly to loosen restrictions to slow the coronavirus outbreak. 32% said it will take too long. as for when the company will reopen, 15% say it will happen in the next few weeks. 45% said the next few months and 26% believe it will be next year. and while some governors are weighing whether to ease social distancing measures, new estimates by harvard university researcher suggesting the united states needs to triple the number of coronavirus tests.

it is currently administering before the country can safely reopen. the covid tracking project shows an average of 146,000 people have been tested each day this month, but according to harvard estimates, the number of daily tests needs to be between 500,000 and 700,000 a day, or at this chart lays outs, right now, there are about 45 tests being done for every 100,000 americans each day to safely reopen by mid-may. there needs to be a minimum of 152 tests administered each day for every 100,000 americans. joining me now, julia manchester. great to see you this morning. president trump, as we saw over the weekend, throwing his support behind protests to force some states to reopen amid the coronavirus pandemic, pitting the people of the state against

their local governments in some respects. as you heard my colleague, chuck todd, say possibly trying to undermine the local leadership there. what is the strategy for the president with this back and forth? >> i think this is very political. the states that president trump seems to be bringing up just happen to be led by democratic governors, michigan, virginia, minnesota. he's targeting those states. asiding from that, president trump throughout his presidency has touted the economy, the stock market gains made under his administration and the economy. now those gains are gone and president trump in a re-election year, he's also a businessman, he wants to get those gains back. so his mind is laser focused on the economy to he's pushing these states where the governors may not be as focused on the economy, they may be focused more on the quarantine measures. he's pushing them to essentially

open up right now. >> let's talk about this poll that i was mentioning earlier, julia, showing a majority of americans around 6 in 10 or so believing the federal government is moving too quickly to reopen the country. how is the white house at this point, from your understanding, preparing to deal with any potential blowback if/when reopening some of the states we start to see a spike again in coronavirus cases? >> so from what we've seen from the white house so far, we've seen that they plan to reopen the economy very slowly, you know, the three phase plan that president trump was talking about. and he said it's essentially up to the governors, that he'll leave it up to them. however, we're seeing so much mixed messaging from the

administration on this issue. last week, president trump was saying, look, it's up to the governors to decide when they want to implement this, we'll take the pressure off of them. but then the next day he's tweeting liberate virginia, liberate michigan, liberate minnesota. that's where the mixed messaging and i think a lot of the confusion comes into play right now. but for now, we know the administration plans to do this very gradually. so maybe sending certain sections of the population back to work incrementally. >> julia, thank you, as always. please stay close. i'm going to talk to you again in just a little bit. so after burning through $350 billion worth of coronavirus aid in just 13 days, congress and the trump administration are close to reaching a deal to add an additional $400 billion worth of

funding to the paycheck protection program. both democrats and republicans are hoping to reach a deal towards the beginning of the week, the senate as early as today. during a phone call just yesterday with the president and republican senators, mitch mcconnell said the only stipulation not agreed upon yet dealt with the coronavirus testing. in a separate phone call, house speaker nancy pelosi said they finished off the four to five outstanding items sources familiar with the call are telling politico. house democrats will hold another phone call this afternoon, as well, but house majority leader steny hoyer alerted others in a memo that they may need to come back to the hill for a vote on the bill as early as 10:00 a.m. on wednesday. the paycheck protection program has faced several speed bumps in getting money to its intended targets, small businesses as well off companies and the wealthy have benefited from this program. one example of this, shake shack

returning $10 million originally collected through ppe after facing widespread criticism. still ahead, we're going to talk about how stay at home on rdz are impacting religious church services and how some states are taking the issue to the courts. plus, some important news out of new york where governor andrew cuomo says the state may finally, finally be past the plateau. we're going to take a look at those numbers, those stories and of course a check on your weather with we come back. th we. . . . my patients

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welcome back, everybody. a federal judge limited schurch services to 10 people. he says churches and other activities appear to have been singled out among essential

services. he says services may continue as long as condegree gants maintain social distancing. laura kelly's stay at home order expires may 3rd. meanwhile, parishioners in kentucky who also argue the stay at home order violates rights has held and the case continues. let's get into a bit of this. joining me now, dan themydanny . some implying a win violates the

judge. break down for us what is actually going on here. >> individual judges do have considerable authority in federal district courts because there are so many federal districts and so many different judges. but if there is a split, singly it works its way up to the circuit courts. if you look at the kansas order, i respectfully disagree with the judge in that case. he points out that it is true, banning congregations more than 10 people does single out churches, but it singles them out to give them more freedom than other groups who might be getting together. in other words, churches can have no more than ten people in church, but they won't count against that number. the priest, the celebrant, the

it litergists, employees, so to speak. but in kentucky, the judge in this case does get the analysis right. these orders are not necessarily targeting religious activities, they're targeting all activities and religious services get swept up in that all category. and as long as the government is imposing restrictions on all people and not just singling out a specific kind of speech or a particular group of people, then a constitutional challenge will probably fail. >> so then there is this part of the case where you have church goers who defied the ban for easter services. what are the issues there? >> the issues there are that they feel they have been threatened with government action .that gives them a likely stand to go bring a case. but, again, a court should look

at whether or not all people are being prohibited or the governor is targeting religious activities. that's the key to a constitutional challenge. >> danny cevallos, thank you for joining us. still ahead, europe hitting a grim mile over the weekend, but country by country, things are starting to reopen there. we're going to get a live report from hard hit spain. align naturally helps to soothe your occasional digestive upsets 24/7. so where you go the pro goes. go with align, the pros in digestive health. for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease, stelara® works differently. studies showed relief and remission, with dosing every 8 weeks. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tb.

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welcome back, everybody. the death toll from the coronavirus in europe has now surpassed 100,000. italy continuing to have the highest european death toll with more than 23,000 as of just yesterday followed by spain, france and the uk. but europe is slowly starting to emerge from this crisis as "the wall street journal" points out. nation by nation, and in some cases, storefront by storefront.

health authorities in the european union are selecting when and where commercial life can actually breathe again. joining me now live from madrid, willem marks for us. it's so great to see you on this monday morning. as i just mentioned, the death toll in europe surpassing 100,000, just incredible to hear that number. but it looks as if spain, where you are, is seen as some new record lows. talk to us about how the country is looking this morning. >> around a fifth of those 100,000 deaths have taken place here. the latest recorded deaths for the last 24 hours period is around 400. that's the lowest number since march 22nd. so some signed of optimism. the street a few stories down from where i'm standing now would normally be absolutely

bustling. but today, this morning, just a few people on the streets. a few dog walkers, a couple of delivery people involved in getting things to people that need them. however, the last few days, we've seen some businesses here reopen. just downstairs is a convenience store that is now open for business. most of them very empty as you might imagine. and the prime minister over the weekend giving a public briefing on the latest development saying they will start to ease restrictions gradually, that they want to put some of their achievements at risk by acting too hastily, but he does say the country is now through the worst of this pandemic. >> willem, as we look to europe as they begin to draw down some of these guidelines, and some of these more stricter measures to stop the spread of the coronavirus, at what point do they suspect they will be in a normal point, a normal way of life? how long do they expect this

whole draw down to take to get things back to normal? >> no government here saying they're going to make those moves very quickly. but at the end of this week, there will be some changes. children will be allowed outside of the home for, really, the first time in around a month to go and play and get some exercise and some fresh air. we've seen those small businesses already. it could be that larger facilities are allowing their workers back in the next couple of weeks. >> all right. nbc's willem marks for us live in spain. great to see you, once again. i want to bring in bill karins who is standing by for us, taking a look at the numbers as he always does along with the weather. bill, here in new york, some good news. it seems as though the governor is now saying we are past the apex and we are now flattening that curve in the state as the

cases do, though, continue to grow across the country. >> yeah. specifically within new york, yasmin, good morning to you, great to see you. the numbers have gone down, but now they're thinking possibly not just the cases in new york, but the number of daily fatalities, too. typically the sunday numbers are a little bit lower. yesterday, we passed 40,000 fatalities in our country. we had a little over 1500. and that fatality rate which last week was 4% is now over 5% in our country. so 1 out of 20 people that have been testing positive ends up being a death or a fatality. it only took from april 11th until today, only about 9 days, to double that number. so as far as the deaths, the worst states, obviously, new york is still high on the list. what was interesting, for the first time in forever, new jersey jumped out of the number

two spot and massachusetts took that. we had severe weather concerns as we went throughout the weekend. yesterday we had 7 tornados. the worst damage appears to be in mississippi. we're almost done with this severe weather threat, but not quite. we have a tornado watch in effect for areas of north florida. so if we get any really bad storms out there early, it will be from the jacksonville area to gainesville and st. augustine. some of the heaviest rain is ending in georgia. we still do have flash flood warnings from columbus through central parts of georgia. there is high water in a few spots. it will improve rapidly throughout the day. if we have any severe storms as we go throughout the rest of the morning, we'll watch out friends in the east coast. we'll talk about the forecast for the rest of the week coming up. coming up, everybody, president trump appears to be at odds with some governors across the country over coronavirus

testing. what it means for the administration's desire to reopen the country next month. plus, the president's re-election campaign says rallies will start up again soon, but experts are voicing a word of caution. we'll be right back. i know that every single time that i suit up, there is a chance that that's the last time. 300 miles an hour, thats where i feel normal. i might be crazy but i'm not stupid. having an annuity tells me that i'm protected. during turbulent times, consider protected lifetime income from an annuity as part of your retirement plan. this can help you cover your essential monthly expenses. learn more at protectedincome.org . i do motivational speakingld. in addition to the substitute teaching. i honestly feel that that's my calling-- to give back to younger people. i think most adults will start realizing that they don't recall things as quickly as they used to or they don't remember things as vividly as they once did.

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or high blood potassium. featuring the emmy award-winning voice remote. access to your favorite apps, including netflix, prime video, youtube and hulu. all without changing passwords and inputs. the most 4k content and movies and shows on any screen. the best entertainment experience all in one place. welcome back, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian. we've got a lot to talk about this half hour with the president saying there would be an increase in the production of

test swabs amid criticism over their lack of availability. during last night's white house briefing, trump said he would invoke the defense production act, but did not exactly say when, as he has done before or provide any details about what company would be producing these swabs. >> it's a swab. it looks innocent, not very complicated. anybody like to see what it looks like? should i open it? does it remind you of something? reminds you of this, right? one is a swab, one is a qtip. we're preparing to increase swab production by over 1 million swabs per month. we will be getting swaps very easily. swabs are easy. ventilators are hard. >> so governors from some of the hardest hit areas in the country yesterday pushed back against the claims that states have the testing supplies and testing

capacity to reopen. >> the president and vice president have been saying over the past few days that the u.s. has enough testing capacity for states to begin opening back up. if you feel your ready to go into phase one. is that the case in virginia? do you have enough tests to do the tests you need to do? >> jake, that's just delusional to be making statements like that. we have been fighting every day for ppe and we have some supplies coming in. we've been fighting for testing. we don't even have enough swabs, believe it or not. >> i think this is probably the number one problem in america and has been from the beginning of this crisis, the lack of testing. i've repeatedly made this argument to the leaders in washington on behalf of the rest of the governors in america. i talk to governors on both sides of the aisle nearly every single day. the administration i think is trying to ramp up testing.

they are doing some things with respect to private labs. but to try to push this off to say that the governors have plenty of testing and they should just get to work on testing, somehow we aren't doing our job, it's absolutely false. >> our big problem today, i could double and maybe even triple testing in ohio overnight if the fda could prioritize companies that are putting a slightly different formula together for the extraction reagent kit. if the fda would do that, we have a shortage worldwide shortage of some of the materials that go into this. so we really need help. anybody in the fda is watching, this would really take our capacity up, chuck, overnight. >> similar to ohio, i think part of the story in michigan is we

have the capacity to double or triple the number of tests that we are doing, but we need some of these supplies. the reagents and the swabs are absolutely essential. you can't process all these tests if you can't take the sample and protective and move forward to -- through testing. so while our capabilities are there, these important supplies are not. >> so amid all this, let's talk 2020 for a moment. the trump campaign says it is still planning to hold its signature rallies leading up to the november election despite the possible coronavirus health risks. the rallies were put on hold back in march amid the growing pandemic. trump's communication director saying this, we're going to get back to those rallies, never fear. the president is certainly that we're going be back out there speaking directly to the american people. that is coming amid warnings from public health experts suggesting that large gathering such as concerts and political rallies should be put on told to

as late as 2021. meanwhile, rnna mcdaniel, a trail woman of the rnc, says the gop is still, quote, full steam ahead for holding its national convention this august. in a phone interview, she said bylaws require candidates to meet in person and until the president is formally nominated, he will not have access to the funds that he raised. a virtual convention is not on the table for us, so no matter what, we will have a physical convention or a physical nominating process. let's get into a bit of this. joining me once again for the hill, julia manchester. julia, good to see you again. let's talk first about the testing capacity. you have the president and some of the nation's governors, as we just heard, very much at odds over the testing capacity. about 50 per 100,000 folks in

this country are getting tested right now. the number needs to be tripled. in the minds of many experts and many medical experts. what does this mean for the administration's plan going forward? >> well, it puts a dent in the administration's plans going forward. testing has been something that the trump administration appears to have struggled with throughout this coronavirus response. so i think they obviously needs to be working more with states, which it appears they're doing, but it appears they aren't necessarily on the same page on the same issue. so going forward, i think you're going to hear more of the governors talking about this and the trump administration will continue to fall under pressure when it comes to testing. that is one thing they have, like i said before, fallen behind and appear to have struggled in some capacity.

>> let's talk 2020. we are just 200 days or so before the election. overall, give me a view of how the coronavirus has impacted both the trump and biden camps. and if, in fact, the ft. begins to start up his rallies once again, is that going to put pressure on the biden camp to follow suit in spite of the fact that the experts are saying not necessarily a good idea? >>i >>ing looking at vice president biden and trump, they campaign differently. vice president biden likes to share those intimate moments that you see him have so often in town halls. but you can tell that he, like many of us, is not used to that. president trump, on the other

hand, likes to have these huge mega rallies to showcase his support and make himself look like a rock star to people watching and tuning in from television. so it's really upended both of their campaign styles. in terms of whether the biden campaign will have pressure to do in-person rallies, if president trump ends up doing that, i think it depends on public health rules at the time. vice president biden has his own public health committee on his campaign and he will be following their guidance, following guidance like dr. anthony fauci. so i think it depends what you're going to be hearing from public health experts. biden has used this campaign to show how he would handle this as president. so i think that would be an indicator of that. >> i think one thing is for sure, though, julia. handshaking and those classic baby holding pictures of the campaigns of yesteryear will not

be happening this year. >> no. >> thank you as always and great to see you this morning. still ahead, we have a lot more. a new signal that new york's social distancing measures are a success as the state appears to be past its peak of coronavirus cases. your first look at "morning joe" is back in a moment.

welcome back, everybody. governor andrew cuomo announcing just yesterday that hospitalizations continue to fall. as he reported the lowest death toll in more than two weeks at just over 500, the state's total now towers at more than 13,000, roughly the same size as an entire town in upstate new york. the downward trend continues to be a big if as long as new

yorkers stick to the guidelines. >> if the data holds and if this trend holds, we are past the high point and all indications at this point are that we are on a decent. whether or not the descent continues depends on what we do. so large scale absent body testing will begin today in new york to determine who is immune to this virus. 3,000 people will be tested in hopes that it will start restarting the workforce. also in florida, governor ron desantis gave the okay to open beaches along the coast. crowds can be seen less than six feet apart on the same day the state reported its highest number of new coronavirus cases. on friday, the health department announced an additional 1400

infections. bringing the state total to 25,269. the total number of fatalities reached is currently at 740. desantis told local leaders friday they were free to reopen beaches as long as social distancing guidelines were enforced. blanket, towels, grills, they're not permitted. surfing and swimming is allowed, but not sun bathing. with that, let's turn to bill karins once again to get a quick check on your forecast and also take a look at those numbers after the weekend. bill. >> yeah. the weekend was interesting. on saturday, we were a little disheartened that we had 30,000 new cases reported across the country. the peak was 34,000. but yet, we came in with 25,000. so you can see where the plateau was. the second week of april was a

down trend. we had a couple of blips up there you can see on the far right. so this will be an interesting week. if we follow the trends, hopefully we'll still continue to see that going down. the growth right now, the lowest it's been in weeks, 4%, with the lowest in the west at 3% and then the south. the fastest growth rate right now is in the midwest at about 35%. so we passed 750,000 cases yesterday. not everyone is past their peak. we had a new peak at the records in ohio, mississippi, iowa and nebraska. that's why state by state, region by region, and in some cases even city by city is going to be -- that's why they had to open things up. you can't just do it nationwide. so yesterday, new cases, new york city still dominates. still amazing, 6,000 new cases are considered a small number compared to what it was. and how about ohio with 1,380 cases.

that's 10% of all their total cases. so that was a big number for the state of ohio state. so as far as your weather goes this week, stormy weather exiting the southeast early today. throughout tuesday, watch out in the northeast. wednesday is quiet on the east coast. but then a new storm comes into texas and oklahoma. that's thursday in the southeast. and friday, it could be a rainy, windy day in areas of the northeast and that will be exiting hopefully by the time we get to the weekend on saturday. many areas of the west this week, by the way, will have gorgeous weather all week long. no more severe weather outbreaks as week long, so that's good. >> that is good news to hear. still ahead, we're going to go live to cnbc for an early look at what is driving the day on wall street. as we go to break today, a public service announcing on hand washing from blue ivy carter, the 8-year-old daughter of jay-z and beyonce. >> hey, y'all. since we're stuck at home, i have this diy experiment that you can do at home, too.

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welcome back, everybody. as many small businesses are continuing to struggle during

the coronavirus crisis, congress is working on a bill to adds additional monies to the program. juliana is joining us live from london. talk to us about what americans could feasibly expect from this new package. >> well, as of yesterday, secretary -- the treasury secretary steven mnuchin said on a call open items are limited to coronavirus testing. but putting that into what we know overall, as of last night, senate democrats and republicans were reportedly nearlying a $470 bill for coronavirus, a small business loan programs. that would include $310 billion into the payment protection program, setting aside another $60 billion for rural and minority groups and potentially more spending for coronavirus testing and to hospitals. now, second mnuchin said the

program will not include the democrats' push for state and local government funding, both democrats and steve mnuchin said they hope an agreement would be reached by the senate this week. so definitely watch this space. anotherspace. another part of the government's move to support the economy has been this $500 billion federal emergency program. democrats are out, warning only the largest mau naunicipalities fully take advantage of the progr program. it seeks to buy short-term debt from cities to push down interest rates, alleviating the financial burden on firms who need to borrow more money. under the rules of the program, only ten cities and 15 counties are large enough to be able to take advantage of the program. as a result, we've seen some senate leaders call on the government to try to rethink the program. another part of the government response to keep an eye on this week. >> so with all of this federal spending, you have federal and corporate debt, which many

predicted would happen, reaching record highs. a lot of folks sounding the alarm on this, about what could feasibly happen mopost pandemic. tell us about this. >> absolutely. this is the other side of the story here. obviously, the government has been critical in terms of trying to support the economy as it tries to weather the storm of coronavirus. the flip side is that governments and corporates are taking out trillions of dollars worth of debt. it is straining many corporations already under a great deal of pressure. economists are warning reliance on so much debt could bite not only the corporate side of the economy but also the government, as well, long after the pandemic passes. this is a risk factor to consider when it comes to all the spending that is being pushed into the economy, to try to cushion the blow of the pandemic. yasmin? >> cnbc's julianna tatelbaum, live from london.

great to see you this monday morning. coming up, axios' one big thing. coming up on "morning joe." >> when question is, mr. trump, mr. president, are you going to save new york city, or are you telling new york city to drop dead? which one is it? >> bill de blasio's pointed question for the president, asking for increased funding to fight the coronavirus. he'll join the conversation ahead. "morning joe" is back in a moment. at papa john's, we want you to know that from our 450-degree oven, to box, to you, it's our policy that your pizza is never touched once it comes out of the oven. and we're taking extra steps, like no contact delivery, to ensure it.

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featuring the emmy award-winning voice remote. access to your favorite apps, including netflix, prime video, youtube and hulu. all without changing passwords and inputs. the most 4k content and movies and shows on any screen. the best entertainment experience all in one place. welcome back, everybody. joining us from washington with a look at axios a.m., political reporter for axios, alexi mccammond. great to see you on this monday morning. talk about axios' one big thing today. >> great to see you. today's one big thing is about amy klobuchar. she's on joe biden's podcast "here's the deal." it is something he started recently in the campaign, as a

way to combat being clocked to the sidelines because of the coronavirus. gretchen whitner, from michigan, joined him. klobuchar and whitmer, you can't talk to strategists without both their names coming up as potential vp candidates or candidates on the short list for vice president for joe biden in 2020. amy klobuchar spent a lot of time during the podcast reintroducie ining herself to b listeners. talking about her family, friends, her life before she was in the senate, and how she loves working with people across the aisle, which we all know is something joe biden prioritizes. it is an interesting moment for senator klobuchar. we know vice president biden is forming a committee to vet these women who are on his short list for vp which, again, includes senator klobuchar, according to the conversations oo s i've bee having. >> who else is on the short list, alexi?

>> we've heard names like elizabeth warren, senator kamala harris, stacey abrams has been out there publicly saying she thinks she'd make a great running mate. biden himself told axios on hbo last year that senator warren would definitely be on his short list of women considered for vp. i think that we can only take the vice president at his word, but the conversation i'm having, those are the names i've heard come up. as well as someone in atlanta, the mayor who doesn't have the same national profile, but her name is come up more and more in talking to people about potential vps. >> we see the president on television every single night because these coronavirus briefings. some reported that basically he sees this as a rally. he sees this as part of the re-election campaign. he's not able to be out and having the major presence amidst the rallies so, instead, he is doing this. how has that impacted the biden

camp amidst all this? he's not able to have rallies himself, although, he is making himself much more available to the media as of late. >> president trump's presence is completely dwarfing biden's, in terms of raw attention. my colleagues at axios pulled numbers from various things, like google searches, tv mentions, tv appearances, the number of people who are tuning in to live streams and free things. we found the numbers don't lie. president trump is getting outsized attention during the coronavirus because of the way he can go on tv every single day and automatically have a national audience. while it is supposed to last an hour, he can go for two hours, as we've seen, and talk about any number of things he wants, while he has a captive audience. joe biden, on the other hand, simply doesn't have that luxury. people have to opt in to his events. you have to literally go to google and type in joe biden's website, or be on the know when

he's going online or doing a tv interview to see what he is doing. president trump's tweets and daily briefings, he's in front of people 24/7, at a time joe biden is struggling to break through. the biden campaign, according to conversatio conversations i've had with folks around the campaign, they have this belief that president trump appeals to one side of the internet, which is addy vdivisi rewards nastiness, and they hope joe biden will appear to the other side of the internet they believe exists, which rewards something like compassion and empathy during a time like this. >> quickly, alexi, in the same vein, as i reported earlier, it seems the trump campaign wants to restart their rallies amidst the 2020 election. is that going to put pressure on the biden camp to also do the same, in spite of the fact that experts and scientists are saying it is not necessarily a good idea? >> i've had this conversation with a lot of folks. you know, i think the one thing

we can assume is certain is that joe biden is not taking any cues from donald trump in any way. yes, there's an idea that i've been thinking about, as well as you, that if donald trump starts doing the campaign rallies again, democrats will be in a tricky position to either set up some sort of counterp-programmig in the form of a rally, or continue things online which, as we talked about, probably won't get the same attention as a traditional trump rally. that said, there are lives at stake. that is something that joe biden talks about over and over again, whether it is personal anecdotes, about people he's met dealing with the coronavirus, or how it is manifesting in families. when you hear president trump talk about it, there's not a lot of the personal anecdotes. it is more about the country's economy reopening. i don't think biden is going to take any cues from trump, but i wouldn't be surprised if trump decided to hold a rally eventually. >> alexi mccammond, thank you. i'll be reading axios am in a litt