our seniors, other than me. other than me. nobody wants to take care of me. other than me, we're taking care of our seniors. >> president trump complaining twice yesterday he is not receiving enough special care. >> nobody is taking care of him. >> yesterday was a doozy. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." >> it was a doozy. >> crazy. >> what does he mean? he has thousands of people, his entire life. >> he's talking about the media, who he hates but can't stay away from, can't quit. it's thursday -- >> by the way, willie, we're going to slow down a tad. >> yeah, okay. we have a lot to get to. good thing we have three hours. >> it is. >> so much happened. sometimes, you know, that cat light, he wants you to focus on one thing. >> yeah. >> there was so much to focus on yesterday. >> lot of cat lasers going on the walls for the media. >> incredible statements by dr. bright about why he was fired. >> i would have, i think,

preferred to spend your time during the press conference the way i did. mika was downstairs. we heard the droning. i went upstairs. >> it was grotesque. >> i turned on rolling stones, very loud. i had to make sure it was loud enough. mika will put on every tv in the house. >> smart play. >> i went through exile, my favorite cuts from while, main street, let it bleed. >> that was good. >> got some of my '90s favorite hits, right here, right now. >> the '90s. >> ended up with u2, all that you can't leave behind. >> good. >> i have to say, at the end of the one and a half, two hours, i was in a better mood. >> you're right. >> than mika. >> it's true. >> because i have the twitter, i knew everything he said in five minutes instead of having it wash up -- >> having to endure it. >> -- like sludge for two hours.

>> i feel bad for the people, willie, who stand around him. >> i recommend watching it that way. you can get the important stuff from the doctors later. pick out the facts the doctors are presenting. that's a great night. i've been thinking a lot about the stones since that performance they did on saturday night at the global citizen. >> that was it. >> always been a fan. when they came together on zoom to play "you can't always get what you want," i've been in every album, too. i can't believe you just -- i might go "let it bleed," one, and "exile," two. i know "exile" is viewed as perhaps the best album by the stones. you pinpointed both of the best right there. >> i compartmentalize. everybody wants us to talk about this. we can't talk about baseball, so we'll talk about this for a second. the beatles compartmentalize from '62 to '70. i always sort of put the stones in the box of '64 to '72. after, you know, "exile," and "sticky fingers."

man, i will tell you where i ended with the stones last night. "some girls" from '78. >> "some girls." >> as i was listening to it, i was thinking, okay, now, you'd expect the eagles to write the album that define d decadent la in 1975 with "hotel california." who would have guessed these guys from britain would have written, really, the album and produced and recorded the album in '78 that really encapsulated a decaying new york city the way they did. from "miss you" to "shattered," extraordinary. much, much better to listen to than, of course, the president's press conference. >> i mean, think about that longevity. you're talking now about, what, 60 years? they were preparing for a tour again this summer at 76/77 years old.

when they popped up saturday night at the global citizen, mick sounded great. keith is over in the corner in his voodoo lounge, doing whatever he is doing. charlie is banging on his record cases because he doesn't have the drums. they're so good. they hold up. every time you go see them, you cross your fingers and say, "i hope they still have it." man, do they. the stone, they'll always have it. >> they didn't let you down. >> i've been used to grading down for my rock heros. >> yeah. >> i was walking through the house, and i heard mick's voice come in. i called up tomek memek mika an that a recording?" she's like, "no, it's live." i've been listening to it since then. unbelievable. >> we have a lot to get to. that was fun for a moment. with joe, willie, and me, we have white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan lemire. >> it is a coincidence. he got out all of his perry como and lawrence last night, as

well, following my lead. >> lemire, you were good on instagram live yesterday with joe. also with us, capitol hill correspondent and host of "kasie d.c." on msnbc on sunday nights -- love the show -- kasie hunt is with us. it was another day of incredibly mixed messaging from the trump administration. the tension at the briefing was obvious and painful to watch. as the president tried to downplay the concerns of a second wave of the coronavirus in the fall. president trump made several claims during yesterday's press briefing that were immediately refuted by doctors around him. he tried to coax them several times into saying the virus may not return. in another instant, the president claimed the "washington post" misquoted the cdc director at the beginning. he forced the cdc direct eor to get up on stage and refute himself, even though he couldn't. it was incredible.

you have to think about the screaming and the arguing that must have happened during the day leading up to that moment, with the president ordering the head of the cdc to try and change what he said to the "washington post," even though he believes what he said to the "washington post" was true. >> to give bad medical advice. >> it was incredible. >> this is how it played out. watch this. >> dr. robert redfield was totally misquoted in the media on a statement about the fall season and the virus. totally misquoted. >> you were accurately quoted, correct? >> i'm accurately quoted in the "washington post." >> what dr. redfield clearly was asking for, like we ask for every american, to follow the guidelines. he's saying, "please add to the guidelines getting your flu shot and making sure you're protected." >> there is a chance covid will not come back. >> we don't know. >> if it comes back, it is a confined area that we put out. >> well, the great thing is, we'll be able to find it earlier

this time. >> it might not come back at all. it may not come back at all. he's talking about a worst-case scenario, where you have a big flu, and you have some corona. it is all possible. it is also possible that it doesn't come back at all. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i am convinced of that. there will be coronavirus in the fall. >> whoa, whoa, whoa. >> i mean, just unbelievable. i cannot wrap my arms around the fact that you have networks that screwed up months ago, saying this was going to be a hoax. then they screwed up, like, pushing false drugs. now, they're screwing up, saying this might magically go away. you have a president who said, "this is going to magically go away. we only have 15 people. it's down to zero." willie, when do these people learn? donald trump's gut was this is magically going to go away in

february. this is magically going to go away. we have 15 cases. it can go down to zero. april, it'll magically go away. we're going to have, probably by the end of next week, more people dead from covid-19 than died in the entire vietnam tragedy. in the entire vietnam war, more americans dead from covid-19. this thing he said would magically go away in april. then we have the president magically say, "this drug, i know nothing about this drug. but my gut just tells me." like his gut told him it'd magically go away, "my gut tells me this drug is going to do greatme great." it killed vets. find out it's not working. he actually fired somebody because they wouldn't promote it -- >> we'll get to that. >> he wouldn't promote it in the way fauci said from the beginning, we have to do clinical trials. he had a gut feeling. he was wrong.

his gut feeling now is that it's not going to come back in the fall. when, in fact, as we've said here for some time, as i tweeted yesterday, even before i knew what was going to be happening in the press conference yesterday, the flu pandemic of 1918 was actually stronger in the fall. i think we said that yesterday on this show. it was stronger in the fall. like, the real tragedy came over three months in the fall and the winter because it came when it was flu season. that's what everybody has been warning about for months. i had a guy that doesn't even know about medicine warning me about this mo ttwo months ago. zeke emmanuel saying, "hey, it'll be worse in the fall, joe." he said that back in, like, february. this is not breaking news. how could the president not learn from his mistakes and

still ignore his doctors, when every medical person will tell you, the pandemic could be the worst, the worst during flu season. why am i getting so riled up? because the president wasn't prepared before, right? the president was told in january by everybody -- >> botched it. >> -- in his administration that this was coming. even navarro warned him, 500,000 people could die. the president ignored it. he didn't prepare. 50,000 people are dead now because of it, right? he didn't prepare. there should have been a lot less people dead. most scientists will tell you, i'm sure, when this is all over, that if we had prepared better, if the chinese had not lied through their teeth, those two things taken together would have saved a lot of lives. but here's my deal, okay? this is not looking backwards. this is looking forward. we have to prepare for the fall. i've got children i want to go to school in the fall. >> not going to happen.

>> i've got mika's mother. i want her to be able to resume a normal life in the fall. >> kids in the college. not happening. >> i want the white house to prepare for the fall. they can't do it if donald trump is still acting like this is february, where he says it's 15 people and going to magically go away. this is another tragedy. this is another disaster, just like the news work that never learns. they never learn! 50,000 americans dead. i know it's early in the morning. i'm sorry. believe it or not, i was asleep just 15 minutes ago. >> yes, he was. >> this is jolting, willie. 50,000 -- i was. i was asleep 15 minutes ago. 0 to 60, my friends. >> i'm up for two hours. >> 50,000 people dead. they were making these miscalculations a month ago. they're still doing it.

when will they ever learn? when will they ever learn? >> by the way, dr. fauci has been saying this, not just in secret to the president, out loud in public and interviews for months, that this is going to come back in the fall. it was something that those of us who were just learning, most of us in the country, about infectious disease at this scale, didn't realize. yes, he said it likely will come back in the fall. what you had yesterday was the director of the cdc quoted accurately in the "washington post" saying, "the winter is going to be bad, too. we'll have the combination of coronavirus and the flu." president puts out a tweet yesterday morning and says that the cdc director was terribly misquoted by cnn, he said. it was actually the "washington post." he'll be putting out a statement. director redfield, dr. redfield, did put out a statement yesterday at the hearing with the -- at the briefing with the president standing at his side, saying, "i was quoted accurately by the "washington post."" there you have it. >> he retweeted it. >> jonathan lemire -- he

retweeted it, right. extraordinary, jonathan lemire, the clip we played, showing the journey of the president trying to coax in public, in front of television cameras, his own doctors into coming to his gut feeling or his wishful thinking, let's put it that way, that this will not come back in the fall. doctor after doctor after doctor, three of them on that stage yesterday in the white house briefing room said, "no, no." dr. birx said, "we don't know." dr. redfield said, "i was quoted accura accurately, saying the winter is going to be bad." dr. fauci came out and said, "no, mr. president. no, american public. this will be back in the fall, and it is critical we prepare now." >> exactly right. every medical expert on that stage yesterday broke with the president. some more subtly than others. this is not a secret. this is not news. this virus will be back in the fall. that's what everyone has been preparing for. that's what they've been warning the public about for weeks and

months. the point dr. fauci was trying to make is that it is not a question of whether the virus will be back. it is a question of how we prepare for it. will we have, you know, better methods in place? will we have better treatments for those that catch covid-19? there won't be a vaccine, but there could be ways to mitigate the spread. it'll be here. and the point the cdc director made the day before in the "washington post," which then cnn and others did coverage of, as the president saw, was the idea that when it is combined with the flu season -- and last year's was particularly bad -- it is going to put a further strain on the medical resources of this country. yes, in many ways, things could be much more worse this fall, and the president simply didn't want to hear it. according to our reporting, he was in a seethe all day yesterday after the report. it flies in the face of this relentlessly rosy picture he is trying to paint, particularly in the last few weeks, as he is trying to get the economy going again and encouraging states to start slowly reopening.

now, he did have some words yesterday where he urged the georgia governor to slow down in some measures, to not, perhaps, have the tattoo parlors and hair salons open. but he wants the economy to get going. this is not a surprise either. by doing what he did yesterday, publicly contradicting the health experts, not only is that politically perilous, a precarious prediction to make, you know, for a president who is going to be facing voters again in the fall, voters who are going to see whether or not the virus comes back. more than that, it could be -- it is irresponsible and could be giving americans a false sense of security, that they can resume their normal lives this fall and not get sick, when the virus could be back and back with a vengeance. >> see, we have a series of polls that show americans are on to the president. what concerns me is when he does what he does yesterday, that further rattles the markets, that further rattles small business owners, who understand he is lying.

he is just making things up. they're sitting there going, "my god, i've got to have a president that is going to be responsible." >> who knows what he is doing. >> who will let the scientists and the doctors and the experts move this country forward, take care of the health crisis so i can get back to work. so i can reopen my small business. mika, here's the deal, we've got a series of polls that are now confirming exactly what we all were saying last week. that is, the president's press conferences are hurting him. the president darting around left and right, hurting him. the president, on april 13th, s saying, "i have total authority." april 15th, "never mind, you guys have the total authority." april 17th, going, "liberate, open your states." yesterday, april 22nd, saying, "don't open your states. georgia, you're doing it the wrong way." it freaks the governors out. it freaks the markets out. it freaks ceos out. and, mika, let's go through these polls, it's freaking the

voters out. they've stopped listening, donald. your two-hour press conference, it's called the law of diminishing returns. i read "sports illustrated" in the back of my econ 101 class at the university of alabama, but i did learn about the law of diminishing returns. you should look it up. your two-hour press conferences are now not only beyond that curve of diminishing returns, you're damaging yourself and making it less likely that people are going to be able to get to work earlier. you need to stop. i've said it for weeks. look at these poll numbers. you'll see i'm right, again. >> it's not just his credibility, he is causing pain. for people who know someone who is suffering, or know someone on the front lines, or aren't working, they're hurting. there are people who are hurting, who are extremely emotional right now. to see a leader refuting himself in real time about whether or not it is going to come back in the fall, about whether or not

this is real or if it is going to go away. it is unbelievable. for people who need information and are desperate on the way forward, they're getting nothing. >> except for "liberate these states," americans aren't listening. donald, they know those are fringe protests. >> so the federal government's stay at home guidelines expire next week. an overwhelming majority of americans support the coronavirus protections already in place, according to the latest "associated press" poll. p 76% of americans say they support closing bars and restaurants. people are scared. 68% favor postponing non-essential medical care. 80% support americans st s stayt home, except for essential errands. 82% favor limiting gatherings to ten or fewer people. >> those are republicans. those are democrats. those are independents. if you go to the cross tabs of

these polls, you'll see republicans and democrats are just about at the same place on these issues. there is no red state america or p blue state america when it comes to the pandemic. there is just a united states of america who says, "why don't we listen to the doctors and scientists instead of politicians who are darting about left and right on stage"? >> talking to their own doctors. 61% say the steps taken by the government to prevent coronavirus infections in their area are about right. 12% say they go too far. over half of americans say it will not be safe to lift restrictions in the next few weeks. they're reading the science here. a majority of florida voters say that the state should not loosen social distancing rules. according to a new quinnipiac university poll, 72% of florida voters oppose loosening social

distancing restrictions by the end of april. that includes 75% of florida voters over 65 years old. joe, they're scared. >> listen, willie, these numbers are so stark. 80% of americans support the stay at home guidelines right now. 80%, eight in ten. we haven't seen polls like that since after 9/11. 80%. 87% of americans believe what the government is doing right now, as far as the stay at home orders, are either just about right or actually not strong enough. 87%, almost nine in ten. 72% of floridians want the stay at home orders and guidelines to stay in place. and think that, actually, getting back at the beginning of may is too soon. so, again, you know, people can take what they want from all of

that. i have said, i think if social distancing is allowed, people should be able to walk on beaches, through public parks. people should be able to walk through public spaces. >> yes. >> actually, i may be a little more out there than i think most americans. but the overwhelming majority of americans believe that we need to stay locked down, at least into may. >> yeah. we've been talking about this, joe, as a partisan pandemic. i think the term that jon meacham coined. i think it's true from the president's point of view, from leadership's point of view, but it is actually not, according to the country. there's no red. there's no blue here. you talked about the cross tabs. let me break this out, the ap poll. i think it is fascinating. among democrats, you might expect this, 95% of democrats believe the restrictions are about right or don't go too far. you might think that makes sense to you. how about republicans? 78% of republicans believe the

restrictions are about right or don't go far enough. 78% of republicans, when you put the two groups together. this is not, kasie hunt, about republicans running to the side of president trump. i think it's a case of the president misreading the country. we know he watches television. >> willie -- >> he probably saw some protests on cable news, where people were waving his flag. it turns out, those were tiny protests, astroturf protests, put up by one family or a few guys who posted to facebook and rallied people in the cities. it's not the country. i'm not just talking about democrats who don't like donald trump. it is not republicans. again, 78% of republicans say these restrictions are about right or don't go far enough. >> reporter: this is why, willie, to joe's point, what the president is doing in the briefing room every day is he is essentially using the same strategy that he has tried to use throughout the course of his

presidency, insist on his own version of reality. we are now seeing that, instead of having a group of americans that are willing to believe that and follow that, no matter what, in the face of whatever other set of information is coming at them from a different place, instead of looking at that through a partisan lens, they're looking at it through the lens that the doctors, the experts, the head of the cdc, dr. birx, dr. fauci, the way they're putting it to them. if you dig into the trust numbers in the polls, that's increasingly obvious, as well. people are saying they don't trust president trump on this. they do trust the experts on this. this is why this is such an overwhelming, you know, crisis for this president heading into the fall. >> absolutely. yes, yes, donald trump, your people may not be watching "morning joe" and getting a different point of view, but they're talking to their doctors. they're looking around them. they're reading about this

because they're scared. everywhere they look refutes what you say. that's a very difficult position for a president trying to navigate politically, when he should be navigating scientisticly and woscientistic scientifically and working on saving american lives. it's not his number one priority if you look at the way he lays out what he wants to message to the american people. he wants to message his brand. he wants to message his so-called strength. he wants to rebrand what has happened in the beginning of this pandemic, and try to make it look like he was prepared. he is worried about his optics, and everyone can see it. it's completely obvious. >> i have to say, yesterday, willie, from the highlights i saw after listening to the stones, he seemed more panicked. it's like -- >> you can -- yeah. >> -- he's completely losing control. i mean, i know he's seen all the numbers. we'll get to the numbers from

the states. you know, losing, really losing support among senior citizens. really losing support in michigan. really losing support in wisconsin. really losing support in pennsylvania. losing support in florida. losing support in these swing states. again, i said it yesterday, i said it the day before, we've been saying it for weeks, i don't understand why he is not understood that senior citizens are not going to buy the snake oil. senior sit scitizens are going talk to doctors they've been with for 20, 30, 40 years. they'll go, "doc, i hear on tv this drug is working." the doc will sary, "hold off on that." "doc, can it magically go away?" "no." "they're having a protest.

is this a scam?" the doctor, "no." you have some of your friends and loved ones susceptible to this that can end up dead. i'll show you the numbers. we've known this for weeks. we've said this for weeks. the president still opportunity get it. his numbers are collapsing because he still doesn't get it. >> one thing he can do, we know, is read a poll. he's reading polls, and we'll talk about them, that show in battleground states, he's sliding because he's losing support among the people you're talking about. among baby boomers. he can read a poll, too, like the one we showed today. we know he watches from time to time. maybe he saw the ap numbers, that he can't write this off as democrats not liking donald trump. 78%, 78% of republicans, many of them, obviously, trump supporters, are taking this seriously, and believe they ought to stay at home. they don't believe the states should be liberated. we haven't talked about governor

l lamb of georgia. the president doing an aboutface, after telling the states to -- if you're looking at the president for leadership, what do you do? kemp, excuse me. you'll end up under the bus at the end of the day. >> he did lay down like a lamb for the president. he was a sucker. >> listen, this is crazy. >> he made a sucker bet. he listened to donald trump. he should have never done it. >> donald trump left him hanging. >> again, and we've been saying this, too, listen, just listen to us, okay? we know how this ends for you. >> it's a hot stove. >> if you listen to donald trump. >> it's a hot stove. >> governors, he is looking to blame you. he doesn't want to be blamed. he goes, "i'm mussolini." then he goes, "i'm not mussolini. you're in complete charge. open it up." then he said, "liberate." then he said, "listen to the doctors." then he totally, totally, he

gets kemp, lifts him up -- >> throws him on the hot stove. >> throws him up the truck, asks the truck to back up, runs over him again, politically leaves this guy in the middle of the road. guess what? he should have seen it coming. all the governors should see it coming. donald trump is freaked out right now. he is concerned about his own re-election. he is looking at you, governors, to throw you under the bus. why don't you do this? do the right thing. >> talk to your mayors. >> talk to your mayors, citizens. see what the people are saying. >> scientists. >> listen to doctors. listen to nurses. heck, listen to your own doctor. listen to your own personal doctor. talk to them. you can't listen to the president anymore. he's freaked out. he's running around in circles right now. he's trying to pin the blame on you. he's tried china. my god, we could all blame

china. trying to blame w.h.o. can blame w.h.o. for some of the mistakes they made, which are some of the same the president made. they both said they loved china and trusted china. "thank you, president xi," donald trump said in january. >> transparency. >> no, they're not. because the president told us how great china was early on, saying how transparent china was being. because he said it was one person from china and it'd go away. because we were drumming it up and medical doctors were creating a hoax out of all of this, he is now desperately trying to blame it on you. whether you're a republican or a democrat, he doesn't care. take care of yourself. take care of your family. take care of your constituents. listen to them. listen to doctors. okay? listen to the medical experts. proceed safely. all right? >> joe, while i go to break -- >> okay.

>> -- do you need to listen to the stones, or are you okay? >> no. but when we come back, we got jonathan lemire, kasie hunt. >> yeah. steve rattner is going to show up. >> tv's own willie geist. >> oh, my lord. >> we'll go through the swing state polls that show donald trump needs to find a new tornad tactic. as i've been advising from the beginning, listen to your doctors, follow your doctors. this is a medical crisis, not an economic crisis. the economic crisis goes away when the medical crisis goes away. >> focus on saving lives. >> focus on saving lives. everything else will take care of itself. ahead, a navy veteran and ex-cia case officer, who also happens to be rising member of congress. elaine luria. and abigail spanberger. their efforts to counter the pandemic. plus, steve rattner often walks us through the finer details of his charts. this one speaks for itself.

we'll dig into the retail shutdown next on "morning joe." because they're here working day in, day out at&t is here providing support with advanced services for first responders

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♪ a new job list claims report will be released later this morning with another anticipated wave of americans filing for unemployment benefits. joining us now, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. >> wait, wait. before we get into this, i just -- the false choices that are being presented by people, that you either have to be, for senior citizens, dying, or you have to, like -- and for the economy, or you have to be for people being healthy. i mean, it's a false choice. it's a false choice. but there are people out there that are talking to the 10% still on the radio shows, still on their tv shows, who are

suggesting that we have to make a choice between the health of americans and the health of our economy. you know, there's some of us who actually give a damn about both. there's some of us that are scared about both. >> we want a real fix. >> some of us that fear this recklessness in the trump white house is going to deepen the economic crisis. it is going to take it longer to come back. the president has been dawdling for months. there is no doubt if he had started working earlier, listened to his experts earlier, if an early january, when he was warned by the hhs, the cdc, the intel communities, when it showed up in presidential briefings in early january, if he had listened to the secretary of hhs on january the 18th in a phone call, instead of bitching about flavored vaping not being

on the market, we'd be further along. why are americans so concerned? he still hasn't gotten it. we're coming to the end of april, and this president is still, like, in the year of magical thinking, for a quote, "this is his year of magical thinking." he said this would magically go away. willie, it was magically going to go away. then this hydroxychloroquine was magically going to cure things. i don't know. i think it's my gut. we find out in the va it kills people. then he's saying it is not going to come back in the fall. this not only puts americans' health at risk, it also puts millions and millions of jobs at risk. pause th because this economic crisis will not be solved until americans feel like they can go

out and work. you know what? i'm so sick and tired. i'm so sick and tired of seeing multi-millionaires getting on tv, saying, "you know what? we need to reopen the economy. workers need to go back to work." good luck getting them back to work. good luck getting them back to the office. i know one guy who is a friend. i can't say his name. he makes like $25 million a year. this guy won't shut up about, "we really need to get the people back to their job." you get them to go back to work. when they've got a son with asthma. when they've got a daughter who is diabetic. they're not going to do it. so we need real leadership to take care of the health care crisis. the economic crisis, taking care of that, will follow, willie. god bless america, why can't he figure that out? >> one big example of what

you're talking about right there was yesterday, the mayor of las vegas made a public plea in an interview to reopen the casinos. let the world flood back into las vegas. the union that represents a lot of the workers last night said, "are you out of your mind? we're not sending workers back into blackjack tables, restaurants, and all those jobs when you have people flying in from around the world." i wanted to add in, as you talk about the false choice, congressman doug collins, republican who represents atlanta suburbs. >> yeah. >> one of the president's biggest defenders during impeachment. had that choice put to him in an interview a few minutes ago. he said, "no. we shouldn't go back. my con surgeon certacern is we soon." it's not a partisan issue. doug collins couldn't have been a bigger defender of the president of the united states during impeachment and throughout his administration. on this issue, he has constituents in the suburbs of atlanta saying, "we don't want to go back to work. we're not ready if we're all going to get sick again and start the clock again on this

entire process." >> yeah. >> steve rattner, you've got new charts, putting the deep economic impact of the coronavirus into perspective. lay it out for us. >> first of all, joe, of course, is exactly right when he talks about the fact that, had we been better prepared, moving to get the testing out there, contact tracing out there, we may be able to reopen the economy sooner. the disconnect, if you will, between what you, i, and many of the on the show believe about reopening the country, versus what you're hearing from your wealthy friends, is the fact that these wealthy friends are looking over the abyss and seeing what's going on in the economy. if you take a look, for example, at retail sales, the chart you showed just before the break, it's literally gone off a cliff. football traffic, and this is measured by people going into stores, dropped 98% over the past month. you have stores closed right and

left. you have bankruptcies beginning. neiman marcus, which you mentioned. jcpenney is headed for bankruptcy. macy's has its hands full. many malls and stores are simply never going to reopen because people are not in the stores and are not buying and, perhaps, will start buying differently when they come -- if and when they come back to work. retail in america, which was already challenged by online buying, amazon, places like that, is literally now a death to stores and will be a hard time coming back. another thing to see how far the economy has fallen, the air traffic. look at the size of this downturn. almost 65% drop in airline passenger traffic. that is the dotted line at the bottom. then look above. you see the last two recessions. the red line being what happened after 9/11, which was pretty tough for airline traffic, as well. you can see it barely shows a

dip compared to what's happening now. then you can look at the financial crisis just above in green. what's also interesting to see, if you look over the right, and we don't have too many projections like this, the international air travel association doesn't see air traffic coming back to anything like normal until the end of the year. even then, 10% below normal. also compared to other recessions, where it's come back much more quickly. the point is, even without a second wave, even before you start talking about horrible possibilities like that, we are looking at a very, very slow recovery for things like air travel, which are esensusential the economy. right now, money isn't the issue, but you mentioned yesterday on the show the impact on the budget deficit. let's take a look at what we're talking about there. what we're talking about is a deficit that, with the new package about to be passed, i think today, by congress, we will be looking at a $3.8

trillion, that's trillion with a "t," deficit in the current fiscal year. it is four times what we thought we were going to have before all this hit. as you can also see, though drop off again as the emergency spending works its way through the system. but we're still looking at deficits of close to $1.5 trillion, as far as the eye can see. let me put this into a context that a business person or not can relate to. it means that for every dollar washington collects in taxes at the moment, it is spending $2 on all the programs, including the emergency rescue programs. >> steve, you and i differ on some political issues. i've always been a small government conservativconservat. we've, for years, been worried about deficits. for years, we've been worried about the debt. you were part of fix the debt, part of an organization that

talked about it. it's got tten to a point now whe donald trump was spending money recklessly, along with the republicans in washington before. we were going to have a $1 trillion deficit. a national debt over 22%, 23%. i mean, can you even start to get your arms around the impact of all of this? by the way, i'm worried about my children getting back to work. i'm worried about my cousins. i'm worried about my dear friends in pensacola, florida, and my relatives in georgia. i want them to be okay. that's my first concern. i'm also so concerned about people getti inting back to wor. we have to get this economy going because this debt bomb is going to explode in our face. can you even begin to grasp, can economists begin to grasp the impact of this deficit spending? i understand we had to do it. just because you have to amputate a leg in a surgery

doesn't mean there's not going to be a massive impact from that necessary surgery. can you even begin to lay out for us the dangers of these deficits and the national debt spiring up to 25, 26, $27 trillion? >> the dangers are huge. first of all, to an earlier point, donald trump inherited a deficit of less than $500 billion. he then, by his tax cuts and by spending increases that he and congress agreed to, they actually doubled that. we went into this crisis about as badly prepared as you could possibly be for a crisis, with a deficit that was already going to be $1 trillion. now, headed for close to $4 trillion. so that is a bis asis for this problem. look, it'll add to our national debt. we all knew our national debt was headed to 100% the size of our economy.

it'll head there even faster than we thought, and reach it even faster than we thought. the consequence of that is that we are going to have to do things in the future that are going to be painful, in terms of eventually, hopefully, getting spending under control. if not, or in addition to that, raising taxes, including potentially on the middle class. eventually, this is going to have to be dealt with. it is going to come at a high cost to the americans who are then in the working world, paying their taxes. it is going to come at a high cost to people receiving government benefits, because they have to be addressed sooner or later. yes, we are doing, and should do, what we have to do right now to attack this virus. nobody should kid themselves that this is going to come at a huge cost to the economy going forward, to economic growth, to the taxes people pay, and to the services they receive. >> yeah. steve rattner, thank you so much. >> oh, boy. >> sobering bit of news. >> thanks, steve. >> we greatly appreciate your

input. willie, as we end this block, i want to say, i was talking about the rich people that are tweeting and getting on radio and tv saying, "oh, workers need to flood back into work." we're all blessed. all of us here are blessed on this show. you and i, mainly because of our winnings at the dog track, but all of us are blessed. >> long bet, yeah. >> we always go long, right? paul revere. i got a dog right here, name is paul revere. i'll sing the rest of the song later. i worry about my friends in pensacola. i worry about my older kids. >> yeah. >> what's -- i worry about their friends. i worry about mika's daughters. what's the world going to look like? what is the economy going to look like? i worry about my cousins in georgia and my cousins across the state of florida, friends in

mississippi. this is going to be bad, and we need leadership. we need to get this economy started. we just got to get it started safely. >> yeah. that's why no one is pretending this is an easy decision for any of the governors, any business owner, for the president of the united states. of course it's not easy. i have people in my family fighting for their small businesses, trying not to lay off these people who work with them and for them, who have been their family for so long. i hear from friends like you do all over the country, who are desperately trying to get that ppp check so they can survive two more months and maybe get through this. this is very real. no one is discounting that pain. what the dock tors are telling s is if you go back too soon, the pain will be two-fold or worse. if you flood people into vegas, restaurants, more people will get sick. we'll be right back where we started or in a worse position than when we started. we hear and feel, believe me, firsthand, a lot of the pain that's happening with the

economy. absolutely, we are blessed. we don't discount that it a all. but you can't do it too soon. that's not me saying that. that's the doctors saying it. >> absolutely. up next, we're going to show you the polls from key battleground states that show joe biden ahead of the president overall. and among senior citizens. that and much more ahead. >> we want to get kasie hunt and jonathan lemire's take on that when we return on "morning joe." every financial plan needs a cfp® professional -- confident financial plans, calming financial plans, complete financial plans. they're all possible with a cfp® professional. find yours at letsmakeaplan.org.

they're all possible with a cfp® professional. some people say that's ridiculous. age is just an illusion. how you show up for the world, that's what's real. what's your idea? i put it out there with a godaddy website. joe biden has an 8-point lead over the president in the battleground states of michigan and pennsylvania, and a 4-point lead in florida. among pennsylvania voters, biden leads president trump 50% to this42% in a fox news poll. up 7 points among pennsylvania's baby boomers. in michigan, biden is up 8 points overall against trump. 49% to 41%. including up by 18 points among baby boomers in that state. and in a new quinnipiac poll of florida voters, biden leads president trump 46% to 42%.

that includes a 10-point lead over trump with voters 65 and older. kasie hunt, you know, a lot of voters who are looking at this situation seriously, which is most at this point, they can see there's clarity with biden. they may not agree with everything he's saying, and a lot of the biden ads say that. you may not agree with everything he says, but you know where he stands. you know he is a good man. you can point to the fact that, le early on, biden made a clear and stark warning about this in a piece in "usa today." he's got a real track record as it pertains to this pandemic. >> he actually did that in january, the end of january. kasie, he said, things are going to get worse. you had the president three weeks later saying this is going to magically go away. it's a hoax. the press is hyping it up. obviously, you know, the president may think he can kill people on fifth avenue, and his supporters won't care.

they do care though if he does things that threaten their lives and the lives of their loved ones. >> reporter: joe, we have talked about that so many times. the president seemed, basically, bullet proof with the people that were supporting him the most. but this crisis is something that has drawn literally every american into the political deba debate. even those who were sick of it, a good chunk of the middle of the country who tuned it out, they are engaged. they are watching every single day. what do we all need more than anything right now? we need a competent, functional government. that's at the federal government, the state level, at the local level. everybody needs the government to function. what is the argument that joe biden has been making all the way along? he has been saying, "i will return to a more normal, more functional time." that has been the message he has been sending to voters this entire time, in a very

consistent way. before this crisis, when you had people on the left and on the right as the most engaged groups in this country, you know, that message, maybe it didn't excite the left. maybe there were prodepressigre who thought it was milk, toast, and bland. but when the entire country is engaged in this conversation, and literally has their lives at stake, in the competence of our government -- and we have walked through all the ways in which our government has failed us over the course of the last four or so months that this has been going on -- suddenly, joe biden starts to look a lot better. those poll numbers are baring that out. >> yeah. i mean, again, you look at the quotes. you match up what joe biden and his people were saying with what donald trump was saying throughout february. >> steady, not steady. >> forget that, the like him,

not like him. how about the right and wrong? >> that, too. >> end of january, he said the president needs to listen to his doctors and scientists. the end of january, he said, "this is going to get worse before it gets better." donald trump spent all february saying this was magically going to go away in april. >> stop right there. more than 45,000 people have died. more than 45,000 people that we know of. >> again, the president, time and again, said, "it's one person. it's 11 people. it's 15 people. soon it'll be down to zero." here's the thing, jonathan lemire. the president found out, he saw the study that said up to 2.2 million people would die if we relied on herd immunity. got serious, supposedly. got serious. but then he darted back. what i don't understand is this has been obvious. like, my professor pierceson at

the university of florida said, "you should have seen it coming, joe, like a freight train out of the mist." donald trump should have seen it. hook at the numb look at the numbers in the swing states. he won because older white dudes broke his way in pennsylvania, in michigan, in wisconsin. he's losing now. of course, in pennsylvania, by 8 points. he's losing in michigan. he's losing, you know, badly in michigan, by 8 points. you look at the senior breakdown. he's losing in florida. you look at the senior breakdown. by the way, who could have ever guessed there were senior citizens in florida? who ever saw that coming? like, jonathan, i know i asked you this yesterday on instagram live. i've asked you this on the show again. please, help me understand. why doesn't donald trump understand this most basic

political reality? >> because, joe, he always asserts his own version of reality. he did as a private citizen, as a candidate, and as a president. he believes through sheer force of will he can change the narrative, and that he believes his voters, his loyal base, will stay with him. we're seeing with this crisis for the first time, that's slimming away. his campaign is nervous about baby boomers, older americans defecting from the president, particularly in the battleground states. joe biden is polling better among older americans than hillary clinton did four years ago. there is concern. the trump campaign, people i talk to aren't ready to write-off michigan, but already put michigan in a category that will be very difficult for him to keep this time around, particularly in the wake of this feud with the governor there. if he loses michigan, he has to hold one of pennsylvania or wisconsin. he'd have to hold both if joe biden is take able to pluck awa

arizona. it is another place with older americans where biden is trending well. florida is the ball game for the president. if he loses florida, he virtually has no path to victory. up next, how to avoid a pandemic patriot act. david ignatius joins us with his new, must-read column in the "washington post." plus, you might have heard us say it a few hundred times. without more tests, america cannot reopen. to make matters work, dr. zeke emanuel says we are testing the wrong people. great. he joins us next on "morn joing joe." we're back in two minutes. weverg you can be certain of. the men and women of the united states postal service. we're here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. every day, all across america, we deliver for you.

and we always will. if we weren't able to stream anything, i think they'd be lost. she's listening to music. he's watching the news. (vo) verizon is giving you more entertainment, like apple music, disney+, and youtube tv. unlimited plans start at $35. shop online. only at verizon. - veterans, in times of crisis, you've served our country. if you're a vet and you're experiencing any symptoms of the coronavirus, please contact your local va hospital. protecting your health is our greatest duty.

it's going to disappear. one day, it's like a miracle, it'll disappear. from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. could maybe go away. we'll see what happens. nobody knows. >> for today, the global death rate at 3.4%. a report that the olympics could be delayed.

your reaction to that? >> well, i think the 3.4% is really a false number. now, this is just my hunch, but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this -- because a lot of people will have this, and it's very mild. they'll get better very rapidly. they don't even see a doctor. they don't even call a doctor. it will go away. just stay calm. it will go away. you know it is a great malaria drug. it's worked unbelievably. it is a powerful drug on malaria. there are signs that it works on this, and very strong signs. you have to go through your medical people. get the approval. but i've seen things that i sort of like. what do i know? i'm not a doctor. i'm not a doctor, but i have common sense. i would say that you keep away until this thing is gone. it is going to be gone at some point. it is going to be gone-gone. i would say you keep away, and you do the social distancing

until such time as you know it's gone. we'll know when that time is. >> it's going to be gone-gone. it's going to be gone-gone. >> he talks about instincts, it is going to go away. common sense, his hunch. just got a hunch, it's going to go away magically. very mild. >> he's not a doctor. >> but he plays one on tv. some people don't even see a doctor, willie. it's what he says. he said in february, february 22nd, while in davos, "it's just one person. we're not worried about it. no problem." later says, "one person from china. then it'll go away." then, "it's 11 people. it'll be down to none. it's 15 people. it'll go away magically in april." all these hunches. willie, i know people were, as t.j. reminded me, eating their fruit loops when the show began. may have been a little loud. i apologize for that. >> you were a little hyped. >> i hope they didn't spit out their fruit loops.

>> i'm get ago lot of texts. >> in my defense, i was asleep 15 minutes before that. >> i know that. >> the thing is, willie, what's so maddening is, he's done this before. we're coming up on 50,000 deaths in america, when he promised americans a couple months ago that it was going to magically go away. there was going to be 15 people. pretty soon, it was going to be zero. he keeps making the same mistakes. certain people on tv keep making the same mistakes. >> parrot him. >> they keep lying to their viewings. donald trump keeps lying to the american people. now, most of them are on to him. i'm really concerned about that 10%, that1 11%, 12%. >> thank you for saying that. >> they're still listening to him, still believing him instead of doctors and nurses and scientists. instead of the, quote, experts, which i have such contempt for.

actually, those experts know how to save your life. they've been spending their entire life, like your doctor, trying to figure out how to save your entire life. so, yeah, i'm very concerned. he's back on this whole, "my gut, my hunch, my this, my that, my instincts are telling me it's not coming back in the fall." i pray to god it doesn't come back in the fall for my own family, for my son, for my daughter. >> that'd be great. >> for my children. for my loved ones. for mika's children. for mika's loved ones. for those in our family that have pre-existing conditions. this would be a very dangerous thing. but we don't know that. we have to prepare for what the doctors are telling us. donald trump is, once again, back in a trying to bully doctors into a position that will kill a lo t f

americans. >> that clip we played at the end of that long string, it started back in january, moved through february and march, of him hopeful, wishful that it would go away magically. the last clip was from yesterday. the one where he said, "it is going to be gone-gone," that was two days ago. he hasn't evolved much on this. as you say, on the stage yesterday, he was trying to persuade medical doctors to support his wishful thinking. he was trying to say to dr. fauci and to dr. birx, to dr. redfield, to say, "hey, this is going to go away in the fall, right? we're not going to see this in the fall." to a man and a woman, they said, "no, it'll be back in the fall." dr. fauci said it most definitively and clearly. there is a difference of projecting hope to the country, and optimism, which is the job of a president. we all agree, of any president. and misleading the public about what's to come and how difficult this is going to be, and how vigilant they have to be to get to that point. let's take a look at the exchange with donald trump, the president of the united states, and his doctors yesterday,

talking about whether or not coronavirus will flare up again in the fall. >> dr. robert redfield was totally misquoted in the media on a statement about the fall season and the virus. totally misquoted. >> you were accurately quoted, correct? >> i'm accurately quoted in the "washington post." >> what dr. redfield clearly was asking for, just like we ask for every american, to follow the guidelines. he's saying, "please add to that guidelines getting your flu shot and making sure you're protected." >> there is a good chance to covid will not come back. >> we don't know. >> if covid comes back, it is in a very small, confined area we put out. >> the great thing is, we will be able to find it earlier this time. >> it might not come back at all, jeff. it might not come back at all. he's talking about a worst-case scenario, where you have a big flu and some corona. it is also possible it doesn't come back at all. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i am convinced of that.

there will be coronavirus in the fall. >> it's just an extraordinary series of comments. you don't see it very often, joe, where, with the president standing a few feet away, they clearlycitly refute what he said a few moments ago. >> incredible. >> it's as if the president were saying, "the earth could be flat. you know, the earth could be flat. there is a possibility, actually, that the earth is flat. it looks flat, doesn't it?" let's bring in zeke emanuel here. zeke, i hope you don't mind me telling people about tfr conversations we've had with your brother and you. i remember ari, you, and me talking at the end of february. i've got to say, your brother, he gets so many things wrong, but i remember him calling me in the middle of the night, flying back from europe, when the stock

market was at 29,000, saying, "we're heading into a recession." i was like, "come on." i remember at the end of february, you telling me that you were concerned. end of february. i want everybody to stop for a second. a couple of months ago, on the phone with zeke emanuel, ari is on the phone, too, and zeke, you said at the end of february, "what we really need to be concerned about, if you look at the 1918 pandemic, yes, it was bad in the spring. it was worse in the fall. we've got to ramp up now, not just for what's about to hit us. we've got to ramp up for what may be even worse in the fall." you said that in february. the president yesterday denying it. yesterday, that it could even come back in the fall. tell me, tell me, just tell me, tell me anything that will make

me feel a little better this morning. >> first of all, i do want to confirm your memory. i do want to say, my brother, ari, who is not a doctor, who is a hollywood agent, really called coronavirus 100% correctly. >> 100%. >> every situation. >> he actually did. >> i hate to admit it. >> he was on the phone with you and i, and he said, "we need a national lockdown" in early march. he said, "that's the only way to make sure we can get it. we need to test and understand this." i will say, one of the things that i do thing is positive is, outside of the briefing room, we do seem to have a national consensus about how we have to proceed, the kind of levels of testing we need, the kind of approach we need going forward, and which parts. what we really need is to execute on that. so you have the american enterprise institute, a conservative organization. you have the center for american

progress, of what i'm a part, a liberal organization. the rockefeller foundation. you have harvard. you have a number of other groups, all coalescing on the kind of approach we need if we want to get the economy started. we want to begin moving forward, we need a testing regime. we need a contact tracing regime. we need to protect our elderly who are in nursing homes more, and people who have co-morbidities. i think we've had the time to get the plan out there. i have to say, i'm still, you know -- we talked about this endlessly -- but still worried about the testing situation. we don't have enough tests. the government seems to be comfortable at 130,000 tests a day. almost every expert, the minimum is somewhere in the 500,000 a day. i called for 2 million tests a day going up. the rockefeller foundation says, you know, "we have to get to 30 million a week," which is about 4 million a day. not immediately, but over the next few months.

certainly preparing ourselves for the fall. there's a path. i think we're co lealescing aro a set of plans, whether you're conservative or liberal. the issue is not to execute against those plans. there are various proposals, how to do that. i know that the president, you know -- you have to have a lot of different groups. one testing. one contact tracing. it doesn't seem to be coming together at the federal level. i will say, i've listened to andrew cuomo. he has, you know -- he certainly has a plan. his plan seems to cohere with other plans. he sees the linkage between you need transportation and schooling if you want the economy to open up. those things are interlinked. the good news, joe, is i think there are people who really understood this and have a solution. >> well, you've given me some good news. you talk about andrew cuomo.

we could talk about republican mike dewine in ohio, who is just really showing superb leadership. >> larry hogan in maryland. >> amazing. >> larry hogan in maryland has shown great leadership. we could talk about gavin newsom in california, who has really done an incredible job. >> yup. >> mayor of san francisco. >> whitmer in michigan. >> absolutely. >> go down the list. david ignatius, i asked the good doctor to gi ve me a prescriptin of good news. he actually gave me probably the best news out there right now, and it's this: for the first time since september 1 11th, we have a national consensus. regardless of what nonsense people are saying on talk radio, regardless of what nonsense some tv stations are spewing out still, regardless of what the president of the united states is saying, republicans and

independents and democrats alike have an actual consensus on where we need to go. you look at the ap polls, the pew polls, the state polls. overwhelming majority of americans, in most cases up to 70% of americans believe that the stay at home orders make sense. we don't need to rush back until workers are ready to go back to work without the fear of being infected. we haven't seen a national consensus like this on a big issue like this since 9/11. >> joe, like you, i was encouraged by dr. emanuel's comments, except for one, which is the key point he made at the end, which is, we have an understanding of the mechanicians that would help us to combat this pandemic,

gradually get us back to work, but we have to execute on those plans. the execute part is what has become very difficult for this country. that's what i've been struggling to think about in some of my columns. how do we create mechanisms that make it easier for doctors, hospitals, scientists around the country, to help coalesce action and have some kind of centralized point, where all their information, their expertise can be brought together? it doesn't look like that's going to be the federal government under this administration. that's what worries me. that makes it hard to execute. maybe there's a possibility of using the national academy of sciences as an alternative clearinghouse or fiduciary for information. curious what dr. emanuel thinks about that. the execute part is not easy. without the execute, you won't get to where we all want to be in the fall and the next year. >> i want to bring in dr. dave

campbell, "morning joe" chief medical correspondent. let's actually back into this with the second question first, dr. dave. what was dr. redfield saying about the fall? what are the top scientists saying about the fall? >> you know, i think what i'm not hearing, i didn't hear from dr. redfield. dr. fauci says we'll have this in the fall. dr. redfield is talking about the flu season in the fall overlapping with coronavirus. i'm not hearing anybody say that this is going away in the summer. because if we look at where we are now, we're going to be in may. the fall is going to be here very soon. we still have outbreaks. we still have areas that are showing increasing numbers. i don't see -- and i'm not an epidemiologist -- i don't see this going away in the summer. if it comes back in the fall even worse, that doesn't mean it went away. to your question, dr. redfield

is talking about the overlap in concern we have when the seasonal flu kicks in in the fall, combined with whatever the coronavirus pandemic does in the fall. he and dr. birx and everyone is encouraging the entire country to get a flu shot when the flu shot becomes available, which will be before the flu season. that's what he's talking about. >> all right. dr. dave, stand by. dr. zeke eemanuel, you're makin the point of testing and testing the wrong people. what do you mean by that? >> well, look, about 50% -- somewhere between 25% and 50% of the people who get coronavirus are asymptomatic. they don't know they have it. it was one thing the president was right on. that's a big threat if you're trying to control this disease. you have people who could unwittingly, without knowledge, without anything, be spreading this. if you want to control

coronavirus, there are many groups you really need to test. two groups stand out. one is first responders, front line health care workers, grocery workers, pharmacy workers, people who are interacting with lots of poem o people out there. they need to be tested regularly. the second group is we have to find the asymptomatic people with a fair amount of contacts who could unwittingly be spreading the virus. that, i think, is a very important shift. the cdc in one month last issued an order about who to test in mar march. they have not revised it. then they said, test people with serious symptoms. that's good if what you're trying to do is treat them and get them the right care in the hospital. all important. we do have to test those people. if you want to control the spread, you want to limit the number of people who get this infection and die from this infection, you have to get to the asymptomatic people. that is a different testing regime and requires a lot more

tests. let me remind dave, the president, and everyone viewing this. when the 1918 flu span dpandemi is the 1918/1919. you can see the effect on mortality all the way through 2023 and 2024. this was not a one and done kind of situation that the president keeps suggesting. it keeps coming back and back. i described it as a roller coaster. describe it as waves. this is what has tony fauci and deborah birx worried. you know, i think, like tony said very definitively, it is inevitable, it'll be back here in the fall. remember, we're now already -- and we've only been at this two months -- we're already at flu-level deaths for the year. that's got -- that has to have you really worried if you're trying to create policy. >> well -- >> absolutely. >> -- mika, we're at flu-level

deaths despite the fact we shut down the country for a month or so. we're still at flu-level deaths. >> i mean, if you look at the piece jonathan lemire posted yesterday on the "ap" and the video inside this hospital in the yonkers, new york, area, one doctor declaring six people dead in one shift. it's a war zone in many major hospitals in these hot spots. for them, they're in the thick of it. this is not something that's in the rear-view mirror, not even close. dr. dave, you were looking at some of the research in los angeles county that contends a number of people who have been infected with coronavirus is 40 times higher than the number with confirmed positive tests. why is this important? >> dr. emanuel had hit the nail on the head as it regards to what's happening now in california and la county, santa clara county area. finding asymptomatic carriers,

asymptomatic people who didn't know they were sick is important. it's part of surveillance testing. it is what dr. emanuel correctly says helps us find those who are with underlying health condit n conditio conditions, those most at risk. they've done two studies across california with more coming across the united states. using antibody testing to find out what's the prevalence of people who have or have been infected in anary a area, and to it with antibody testing. there's concerns about the accuracy of the antibody testing. now that there are two studies out, both of which show at least 40 times increased rate of the true infection rate, we should all realize that the coronavirus has spread far beyond what we thought it had done just even a week or two ago. >> dr. dave campbell, thank you

very, very much. willie? we've heard time and again that coronavirus will persist until there is a vaccine. a vaccine that could be a year or 18 months away. for more, let's bring in nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard is in london and spoke to the ceo of one of the four companies in human trials for a coronavirus vaccine, and who volunteer for the trial. these companies are moving very, very quickly to try to find this vaccine, aren't they? >> reporter: they are moving extraordinarily quickly. so as we've all been talking about over the last several weeks, there are three legs to this stool that will get us out of this. there is the testing component we were talking about now, so that we know what we're dealing with. how many people in our society have the coronavirus or have had it. so we can figure out how to manage our social systems. then there is the medical treatment, how to make sure that the symptoms aren't as severe. hopefully not as many people end up in the hospitals.

and then, ultimately, the holy grail, which is a vaccine. there are already about 70 different trials around the world. a handful of them already in clinical trials, which means they are already testing this on human beings. they're about to start one of those clinical trials on humans here in the uk today, at oxford university. there are currently two in the united states. one of them is being run by a company called innovio. they're under way. what they're doing is a unique approach. they're injecting into volunteers a dna code, a piece of the coronavirus code. specifically the code for the spike. by now, we all know what the coronavirus looks like. it is a ball with little spikes on it. they're putting the code for one of the spikes into people, with the idea that the code will replicate in the body, then the body will recognize that spike,

woe won't like it, and will produce antibodies to fight against it. i spoke with both the ceo of the company, dr. kim, and i spoke to one of the volunteers, a man named mike. medical staff there asked us not to use his last name for his privacy concerns. mike, so far, is feeling very well. he's a lab engineer at the facility. one of the people -- a maintenance engineer who helps keep the lights on, keeps the facility running. he wanted to do his part after a friend of his died, he believes, from covid-19. let's hear two clips, which i believe you have lined up. one from mike. the other from the ceo. did it burn? did it hurt? what was it like? >> it felt like any other shot. flu shot or whatever, i don't know. i haven't had any side effects. i haven't -- thought my arm might be, you know, swollen or bruised or something.

no, nothing whatsoever. >> reporter: you felt no discomfort or pain at all? >> none at all. i went through the list of side effects, and i kind of stopped reading. i don't -- i didn't want to scare myself. i thought, "let me just see how i feel. see what comes naturally." like i say, so far, absolutely nothing. >> reporter: what exactly are you injecting into someone's arm? >> we have honed in on the spike protein of the coronavirus. which is the most outer layer of the virus protein. that allows them to dock into the patient's cells. it's actually an entry point, an anchor that the virus uses to get in. it is a great target for our immune cells to go out there, antibodies and t-cells. what we're injecting to the patient is a dna sequence for

the full length spike protein. we inject that genetic code into the patient's cells, and they safely and effectively manufacture a whole host of this spike protein. that presence, those presence of spike protein really jump starts the immune system, recognizing it and being ready to pounce when the actual virus enters the body. >> all right. very, very hopeful news there. you can see more of richard's reporting tonight on nbc nightly news. richard engel, thank you so much. let's turn right now, mika, to battleground state polls. >> joe biden has an 8-point lead over the president in the battleground states of michigan and pennsylvania. a 4-point lead in florida. among pennsylvania voters, biden leads president trump in a fox news poll, up 7 points among pennsylvania's baby boomers.

in michigan, biden is up 8 points overall against trump. 49% to 41%, including up by 18 points among baby boomers in that state. in a new quinnipiac poll of florida voters, biden leads president trump 46% to 42%. that includes a 10-point lead over trump with voters 65 and older. you're seeing a real trend here. >> you are. david ignatius, yes, it's early. as i've always said, you look at trend lines. the president's trend line, since this pandemic, has been very bad in the swing states, especially among senior citizen voters. look at his performance yesterday, where he's once again going back to his magical thinking, talking about how this may magically not come back in the fall, when everybody says it probably will. fauci says it will definitely come back. you just see that the president

is caught in a space that, for some reason, he can't get out of. he can't just follow his medical doctors' wisdom and advice. if he had done that starting in early january, we'd be at a far different place right now. >> joe, watching him last night at his daily press conference, you saw a man who was, i thought, caught between his political duress -- he desperately hopes to keep his base and others motivated -- and reality, as presented by these doctors. trump, for all these months, has been fighting against the medical opinion that surrounds him. i think in the beginning, a country that was frightened by this pandemic, wanted leadership. there was a slight bump upward for president trump. but we've seen that air go out of that balloon. these people who are worried, frightened, needing guidance,

especially older people, now are beginning, as the numbers show, to turn away from him. i think that's fascinating. people who wanted -- they didn't want hope. they didn't want reassurance. briefly, they found it from president trump, but that seems to be over. biden has many weaknesses as a candidate, but the one thing that he's always had is this kind of "i'm just joe biden quality." he's reassuring. he's a picture of a sane man. i think in this nervous, frightened country, when the election and campaign will be held, that quality is going to serve him pretty well. >> yeah, he is a regular guy. he actually listens to doctors. he takes doctors' advice. he takes scientists' advice. that's why he was saying the end of january that things are going to get worse instead of better. actually asked donald trump to please listen to his doctors and scientists and let them talk. david, i want to talk to you about something i talked about with richard haass a couple days

ago. this isn't talking about the next five months, not talking about the 2020 election. let's talk about what happens on the world stage over the next 25 years. obviously, china and the united states is going to share that global stage over the next 25 years, much like the soviet union and the united states did after world war ii through the end of the 1980s, early '90s. yet, the chinese showed alarming -- an alarming lack of transparency in november and december. they are responsible for crippling the global economy. they are responsible for the spread of this pandemic. they would not cooperate with american doctors and american scientists in november and december. that was compounded here at home by donald trump trusting them and saying how great xi was in january. then we get the alarming news

yesterday that china was actually spreading misinformation, russia style, in the united states, trying to create a panic on the -- among americans about an imminent, harsh lockdown. my question is -- and, by the way, that is confirm eed by the intel agencies conservatives are quoting now, who they hated when we were talk about russiing abo intel. experts are saying, as you know, china was spreading this misinformation, to try to panic americans. i just got to say, as a guy who knows we have to share the world stage with china, and that the world will be a better place if the united states and china can figure out how to co-exist on that global stage together, i just have to ask, what the hell is china thinking?

after letting loose this virus on the planet, creating a global recession, probably depression, changing the course of history, and now spreading misinformation in the united states of america. i mean, what the hell are they thinking, and what should our response be? >> so, joe, china is an authoritarian police state, in effect, run by a single party. they're doing what authoritarian countries do. they lockdown information at home, and they try to manipulate it abroad. russia does that. china is learning to do it and now does it very aggressively. the answer to your question of what we in the west should do about it, i think, is pretty clear. the origins of this terrible pandemic, the origins of covid-19, are still unclear.

we know that it arose in wuhan, but the initial chinese account of how that happened, it may have passed by people eating contaminated bats in a seafood market in wuhan, that theory now is pretty shaky. there are a lot of alternative theories that are out there. i've been spending the last week look at a number of them. the truth is that we don't know the answer. what we should be demanding of china is that they conduct the kind of open, international ly respected investigation that will provide clear answers. the world needs to know what happened. not to affix blame, so much as to design vaccines correctly. to understand how better to deal with future outbreaks. so i think this ought to be number one on people's list of demands for china. it's not a blame game, but it is

just a clear statement. you have an obligation to investigate how this began. you need to take international scientists into your investigation. i think that's a way that, rather than conducting propaganda campaigns against each other, we could have some cohere coherent, common effort, that the world really would need. in the long run, this is in china's interest as much as the united states. if they think they can keep manipulating information, lying, suppressing, putting out false propaganda, i just don't think it's going to work. >> i say this same thing on a much bigger scale. for the chinese government and president xi, as with donald trump on a domestic scale, china can't keep lying. they can't keep trying to hide the truth. they have to show transparency. as with donald trump, if china doesn't want to do it for our

sake, they should do it for their sake. already, we're having reports that europe, there's a growing fissure between europe and china because the lies continue out of china. for china's own best interest, they need to come forward and start telling the truth. let doctors go in. let us know how this began. we can all work together to make sure there's not another pandemic that, not only cripples the world economy but, yes, cripples china's economy, as well. this police state nonsense does not work against a pandemic anymore than political ideology in the united states. blind political ideology works against a pandemic here. >> david ignatius, thank you so much for being on this morning. we really, really appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," to hear george packard ti

tell it, quote, we are living in a failed state. he has a new piece in the "atlantic" that says the coronavirus didn't break america. it revealed what was already broken. that conversation is next on "morning joe." wow. as we go to break, a bit more of president trump's muddled position on the economy, after calling to, quote, liberate several states and praising georgia republican governor kemp's decision to reopen non-essential businesses. including bowling alleys and massage parlors. president trump, yesterday, outwardly completely reversed course and disagreed with the plan he was pushing. here is that whiplash. >> mr. president, what do you say to the conservatives like georgia is opening up barbershops and bowling alleys. >> so he's a very capable man. he knows what he's doing. he's done a very good job as governor, georgia. i told the governor of georgia, brian kemp, that i disagree

strongly with his decision to open certain facilities which are in violation of the phase one guidelines. there will be parties again soon, and family gatherings. there will be parades and sporting events and concerts. to help our communities when they come back together, respond to the 2020 census now. spend a few minutes online today to impact the next 10 years of healthcare, infrastructure and education. go to 2020census.gov and respond today

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you said by fourth of july, you expect people to be on the national mall and having a celebration like last year. >> hope so. >> with what the doctors are saying, coronavirus will be out there, not as bad as now, but circulating, will it be safe to have that many people on the mall? >> we'll probably have 25% of what we had last year. last year, as you know, was maxed out. magnificent picture of dr. mart martin luther king i saw. i saw a magnificent picture of our event last year. both of them were maxed out. it was beautiful to see. beautiful. very similar. this year, most likely, will be standing 6 feet apart. we'll have to do that in a very interesting way. maybe we'll even do it greater.

we'll leave a little extra distance. if we do that, we'd certainly do that. i don't see maybe the purpose if we can't do that. we have to have people sh thousand -- we had tens of thousands of people last year. it was incredible. most of you were there. it was, toen an extent, an air show. we had air force one flying over. ideally, it'd be wonderful if we could have it as it was last year. but, eventually, we will have that. >> that's president trump at yesterday's white house briefing, saying he, again, will hold a fourth of july event on the national mall, comparing last year's turnout to martin luther king jr.'s legendary "i have a dream" speech on the mall in 1963, saying this year, they may have to amend the rules and have people stand 6 feet apart after his rally. joining us, professor, and staff writer for the atlantic, george

packard. george has a new piece, "we are living in a failed state, the coronavirus didn't break america but revealed what was already broken." he writes this, when the coronavirus came here, it exploited underlying conditions ruthlessly. chronic ills, a corrupt political class, a heartless economy, a divided and distracted public had gone untreated for years. good morning to you both. george, i'll start with you right there in that piece. a lot of people have pointed out that this has shined a light on the fundamental goodness on the american people. no question it has. we've seen that among regular people and the heros working in our hospitals and on the front lines. but it has also shined a light on our vulnerabilities. >> yeah. i've been heartened by the

sacrifice by people around the country. there seems to be a consensus stronger than some of the partisan divisions we have known for years, that science should be our guide in this. but i can never forget those weeks in march, and they really are continuing now in april, when we looked to our national government for guidance, for instructions, for basic information. it wasn't there. it reminded me, we're not a textbook failed state. i've reported from a few failed states, and that's not us. the police are functioning. when you call 911, an ambulance will come. but our national government was in chaos and dissembling and deceiving us and was unable to provide information or help when we desperately needed it. it reminded me a little bit of what it is like for citizens to find, that when they look to their national leaders in a

crisis, they find that no one is there. they have to make decisions on their own, without that guidance. >> george, as you know and have reported on, there have been many failures of government over the last generation. you can go through the intelligence failures leading up to 9/11. the financial crisis of 2008. we can add katrina in there, as well. this is not a new problem in the united states. is there something unique about this particular problem and the way this government has handled it? >> if you use the health metaphor, our body is much weaker today than it was 9/11 and weaker than 2008 during the financial crisis and the beginning of the great recession. we're now more polarized, more divided. our government has been demoralized by constant attack from within and without. it's been defunded.

our economy, in some ways, is more unequal now than at any time in the last 40 years, when inequality has been a growing problem. all those symptoms made us an easy target for coronavirus to really wreak havoc in our society. i think what's different now is the virus is more personal, more intimate, and also more broad scale than either the recession or 9/11. our repons sponse is weaker bec for years, we've allowed these ills to go untreated. now, with leadership in washington back, almost seems at times to be collaborating with the virus. i compared trump, who called himself a wartime president, to the french general who was the -- in charge when the nazis invaded and who essentially gave up and allowed them to occupy

the country, and created his own republic. it's a harsh comparison but, at times, trump seems to be collaborating with the virus and doing its work for it. all those things made us a much easier target. recovery is going to be much harder this time around than in the earlier crises that you mentioned, willie. >> that's an extreme comparison, obviously. eddie, i want to ask you about the vulnerable people in all of this. we know physically vulnerable from a health standpoint. we know who is vulnerable there. also the economically vulnerable. the socioeconomically vulnerable. the culturally vulnerable. the people this virus has attacked, in particular. >> you know, i enjoyed george's piece if the "atlantic," willie, because on one level, what he said and what he argued is that what we're witnessing is the collapse of an entire or a whole way of governing. the virus has revealed a growing

gap, and i'm quoting him, between triumph capital and beleaguered labor. the breaks in our society is where the virus lives, and it is feeding on people. what we see over and over again is that the most vulnerable, pre-corona, right, are, in some ways, the most vulnerable during corona, and will be the most vulnerable post corona, if they survive. so part of what i want to say, as the president and all of his minions talk about opening the society, to folks who are in my community particularly, i want you to understand this as an invitation to the grave. what donald trump is saying, by not talking about robust testing, by not addressing the inequalities that, in some ways, define our country, as george has brilliantly laid out in his piece, in some ways, he's inviting, creating the conditions for more death. for more death. i think it is important, and i should say this really quickly, that the way in which george lays out his argument, there have been choices made in order to produce this particular

situation. of course, we didn't choose the coronavirus. we've made choices to provide an environment where the coronavirus thrives. i want to underscore this. we're choosing mass unemployment. we're choosing not to test at the federal level. we're making choices, and those choices are predicated, in my view, willie, on a political ideology that is driven, in so many ways, by unadulterated greed, and the result is suffering. we need to tell the truth about it. >> we want to thank george packard of the "atlantic." we'll read your latest piece, george. love to get you back. we're having a little trouble with your shot. please come back. i want to ask you tomorrow or maybe on monday what i'm about to ask eddie. so, eddie, i understand the "new york times" this morning has a piece talking about american

exceptionalism and death. it reminds me of what happened in 2008 after the crash and all the companies were going down. warren buffet said, if you bet against the united states of america, you're going to lose every time. piled a ton of money into companies and made a ton of money. i understand we have a failed leader. i understand washington, d.c., has failed the american people throughout the better part of this century. the in-fighting has been absolutely awful. let's take a loittle closer loo at the united states of america. we have the best scientists. we have the best doctors. we have the best universities. this isn't jingohism. we have the next nobel prize winners, the best tech companies. we are still the innovators. we still are the leaders, on the cutting edge in just about every area. when it comes to science, when

it comes to technology, when it comes to all these other things, which makes our failure in this crisis, which makes washington's failure even worse. not only do we have that going for us, us, i'd love to get your reaction to the fact that americans together have been responsible and for the most part have been staying at home, been socially distancing, have acted responsibly together. and we bent that curve a lot faster than the experts expected. and then if you look at the polls that came out over the past week, a lot of these other polls that have come out, republicans and democrats alike, they alike believe we need to continue social distancing. we need to continue following the guidelines. we don't need to rush to reopen. there actually is a national consensus, let me say it again, there is a national consensus

among republicans and democrats alike if you look at the polls over this past week, that we need to continue to social distance, we need to be responsible, and when we know back to work, we need to make sure that americans can do it sta safely. the fact that only one in ten voters think that we've gone too far, is that not something to look at and say, women, ell, in case it is a positive development that this pandemic has brought most persons together regardless of ideology. >> >> yyou know, joe, i think i many ways the virus 24has throw us into a post ideological moment where we are recognizing the emptiness, in some ways the contradictions of the previous set of political realities. and in other words, i'm agreeing with you to a certain extent.

but i think there are underlying realities that we have to confront. and that is the growing inequality, that we've seen a serious attack on american hire education institutions. we can talk about that at another time. we can talk about the vulnerable folks who are living in the shadows where we've seen the erosion of a social safety net. so as great as we may think america is, the underlying fundamentals and in some ways made us vulnerable to the pandemic. and what we need in this moment is not just simply -- this is my view -- not just simply the resolve of the american people, we need robust imagination to respond to a crisis that has revealed the deep breakages in our society. and i think that is important in this moment. >> thank you so much. and joining us now are virginia congresswoman elaine loria who

served two decades in the navy and is a member of the house armed services and veterans committees. and congresswoman spanberger served with the cia and is a member of the house committee on foreign and i haveffairs. thank you for joining us. on the mixed messaging from washington, do you feel your constituents are responding to 24 perhaps differently than the way that they responded to the president in the past? >> i'll start. there are certainly folks out and about, they are doing their shopping for their necessities. but people really by and large are staying home and complying with the orders of the governor. even the small business owners,

they understand that the public health aspect of this truly comes first. and we have to get through that so that we can recover safely. >> congresswoman spanberger, same question. i'm wondering how your constituents are responding or feeling or processing the messaging from the president which will does steam to jump back and forth every day. >> well, the contradictory nature of some of what the president has been saying is difficult to digest and difficult for people to manage. but overall, we've had clear guidance from health care professionals, from our governor and within our community as elaine mentioned across virginia. people are staying home, they are taking this public health crisis seriously. in my district we've had the unfortunate and horrible circumstance of having large outbreaks in nursing homes and rehabilitation facilities. so the real impact of this

crisis is present here in our district. and people are taking the steps necessary to protect themselves, protect their families and protect the greater community. it is not without hardship and sacrifice, but people are recognizing how severe this moment is and that is why congress, we're voting today to provide additional support to business that is vitally important, but we're in this together and i'm grateful to be serving at this time with other members like elaine. >> and this is willie geist. good to have you on. what do you say to the small business owner in your district who understands how serious the problem is as we've been showing the polling, most americans democrat and republican support some virgen of the stay-at-home order that they have been asked to undertake. but there are small business owners who are looking at a long road ahead potentially as we hear doctors talk about continuing into the fall and saying i can't survive, i have

at ga got 10, 20 employees and use keep the lights on. and i'm not talking about the protestors, but people in your district who are worried about their futures. what do you say to them? >> i've done a lot of outreach with the small business owners. and it is a very seasonal tourist industry here. and we also depend a lot on fisheries on the eastern shore. and these business owners are concerned because they have had to shut their door, there is in one coming in now, but not knowing and not knowing the time frame of when they will be able to open up again and when they do open up, we know that it won't be turning on the light switch and they will somewhere fusomewhere -- have full crowds. so that time line and that lack of knowing that is the biggest concern. what we've been focusing on is trying to help the small business owners get the resources that have been made available trhrough the cares oi act and the ppp protection

program. and we'll be pleased to be voting to put more funds into that program because we've had success stories. i've heard from business owners that i applied for this program, this is the amount that will get me through this time. and there are others who are still waiting because their applications are in or they might be in the approval process and they didn't make it in before the funds ran out. i understand that this program won't work for he haevery type business, especially the seasonal and tourist businesses. it will be challenging because it is hard to judge and plan what the summer tourist season will look like. >> governor northam has the stay-at-home order until june 10th. what are you telling your constituents about how long this might go and how they might have to expect this to be the way of life for a while?

>> certainly anyone who has children within the commonwealth of virginia has felt the immediate impact. our schools have been closed through the remainder of the year. so families with kids are already making plans recognizing the length of this shift and change in the way that our community, our society and our economy is functioning. when i'm talking with small business owners across our dwri district, restaurant owner, small retailers, our farmers and producers, small business owners of agricultural focus, we've been talking about the resources that are available to them, the pmpt ppe loans, we've developed resource guides and we are on the phone nonstop providing that sort of support. and we've said that from what we're seeing, this is about a public health determination, this is ensuring that when we

begin to reopen our economy, we are not setting ourselves up for rebound, for this virus to come back even stronger than the first time. we have in virginia been successful at pulling our potential apex in time and so what we are doing here is saving lives, it is working. it is a tremendous being ary ni sacrifice. and it is not without its hardship. but in virginia, we are talking about being focused on the day that and the science and ensuring that when we begin to reopen, we're doing it safely and securely. >> congresswomen, thank you both so much for everything you're doing. and still ahead, president trump seems to be at odds with his ewn medical experts. he says life will get back to

normal soon but the experts are cautioning otherwise. plus record jobless claims wipe out all of the gains in the years since the great recession. we'll bring you today's new numbers when they cross and we'll talk with a top labor official from the obama administration. timuddlers... achoo! ...do your sneezes turn heads? try zyrtec... ...it starts working hard at hour one... and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. zyrtec muddle no more.

it was another day of incredibly mixed messaging from the trump administration. the tension at the briefing was obvious and painful to watch as the president tried to down play the concerns of a second wave of the coronavirus in the fall. pld ma

president trump made several claims that were immediately refuted by doctors around him. he tried to coax them several times into saying the virus may not return. in another instance, the president claimed that the "washington post" misquoted the cdc director. he forced the cdc director to get up on stage to the podium and refute himself even though he couldn't. it was incredible and you have to think about the arguing that must have happened during the day leading up to that moment with the president ordering the head of the cdc to try and change what he said to the "washington post" even though he believes-life. >> it lie. to give bad medical advice. watch this. >> dr. red field was totally misquoted in the media on a statement about the fall season and the virus. totally misquoted. >> you were accurately quoted, correct? >> i'm accurately quoted in the

"washington post." >> what dr. redfield clearly was asking for, just like we ask the americans to follow the guidelines, he said please add to that guidelines getting your flu shot. >> and a good chance that the covid will not come back. it is in a very small confined area that we put out. >> the great thing is we'll be able to find it earlier this time. >> it might not come back at all, it may not come back at all. he's talking about a worst case scenario where you have a big flu and a small corona. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i'm convinced of that. there will be coronavirus in the fall. >> i mean, it -- it is just unbelievable. i cannot wrap my arms around the fact that you have networks that screwed up months ago saying this was going to be a hoax and

then they screwed pushing false drugs and now they are screwing up saying this might magically go away. and you've got a president who said this is going to magically go away. we only have 15 people, it is down to zero, like willie, when do these people learn? like donald trump's gut was this is going to magically go away in february. this is magically going to question away. we have 15 cases, could go down to zero. we'll have more people dead next week from covid-19 than died in the entire vietnam war. more americans dead from covid-19. this thing that he said would 3457b8g magically go away in april. and then the president says magically this drug, oh, no, i know nothing about this drug, but my gut just tells me just like his gut told him that it

would magically go away, my gut tells me that this drug will do great. we find out that it killed vet, find out that actually it is not working. we find out that he actually fired somebody because they wouldn't promote it in the way that dr. fauci said from the beginning, hey, we have to do clinical trials. we don't know if this is going to kill people. but he had a gut feeling. he was wrong. his gut feeling now is that it is not going to come back in the fall when in fact as we've said here for some time, as i tweeted yesterday even before i knew what was going to be happening at the press conference yesterday, the flu pandemic of 1918 was actually stronger in the fall. i think we said that yesterday on this show. was stronger in the fall. like the real tragedy came for three months in the fall and winter because it came when it was flu season. that is what everybody has been warning about for months.

i had a guy that doesn't even know about medicine warning me about this two months ago. i had zeke emanuel saying hey, it will be worse in the fall, joe. he said that back in february. this is not breaking news. how could the president not learn from his mistakes? and still ignore his doctors when every medical person will tell you the pandemic could be the worst. the worst during flu season. why am i getting so riled up. >> because the president wasn't prepared before. right? the president was told in january by everybody in his administration that this was coming. even navarro warned him 500,000 people could die. the president ignored it. 50,000 people are dead now because of it.

there should have been a lot less people dead. most scientists i'm sure will tell you that if we had prepared better, if the chinese had not lied, it would have saved a lot of lives. but this is not looking backwards, this is looking forward. we have to prepare for the fall. children want to go to school in the fall. i get mika's mother, i want her to be able to resume a normal life in the fall. i want the white house to prepare for the fall. they can't do it if donald trump is still acting like this is february where he says it is 15 people and it will magically go away. when will they ever learn? when will they ever learn? >> and dr. fauci has been saying this not just in secret to the president, out loud in interviews for month that this

will come back in the fall. most of us in the country were just learning about infectious disease at this scale didn't realize, and yes he said it likely will come back in the fall. and yesterday the director of the cdc quoted accurately in the "washington post" saying the winter is going to be bad too, we'll have a combination of coronavirus and the flu. president puts out a tweet yesterday morning says that the cdc director was terribly misquoted by cnn, it was actually the "washington post," he will be putting out a statement. well, director -- dr. redfield did put out a statement at the briefing with the president at his side saying i was quoted accurately by the "washington post." so there you have it. >> and he retweeted it. >> right. that was an extraordinary jonathan lemire clip that we played showing the journey of the president trying too coax in public in front of television cameras his own doctors into coming to his gut feeling or his

wishful thinking that this will not come back in the fall. and doctor after doctor after doctor, three of them on that stage yesterday in the white house briefing room said no, no, first of all, dr. birx said we didn't know. then dr. redfield said i was quoted accurately. and then ultimately dr. fauci said no, mr. president, this will be back in the fall and that is why it is critical that we prepare now. >> willie, that's right. every medical expert on that stage yesterday broke with the president, some more subtly than others. this is not news. this virus will be back in the fall. that is what everyone has been preparing for and warning the public about. it is not a question of will it be back, it is a question of how do we prepare, will we have

better treatments for those who catch covid-19. there could be ways to mitigate the spread, but it will be here and the point the cdc director made the day before in the "washington post" which then cnn and others did cover as the president saw was the idea that when it is combined with the flu season and last year's was particularly bad, it will put a further strain on the medical resources of this country. so, yes, in many ways things could be much more worse this fall and the president simply didn't want to hear it. according to our reporting, he seethed all day yesterday after the report because it flies in the face of this relentlessly rosy picture he is trying to paint particularly in the last few weeks as he is trying to get the economy going and encouraging states to start slowly reopening. he did have? words yesterday where he urged the georgia governor to slow down in some measures, did not perhaps have the tattoo parlors and hair salons open.

but he wants the economy to get going. and by publicly contradicting the health experts, not only is that precarious prediction to make for a president who will be facing voters again this fall, voters who will see whether or not the virus comes back, but it is irresponsible and could be giving americans a false sense of security that they can resume their normal lives this fall and not get sick when the virus could be back and back with a vengeance. still ahead, the top democrat on the senate intel committee mark warner joins the conversation. you're watching "morning joe." >> it is going to disappear, one day it is like a miracle, it is disappear. and from our shores, it could get worse before it gets better. could maybe go away. we'll see what happens. nobody really knows. >> we had a report the global death rate at 3.4% and a report that the olympics could be delayed. your reaction to that. >> women, i think tell, i think

really a false numberer. this is just my hunch. but a lot of people will have this and it is very mild, they will get better rapidly, they didn't even see a doctor. >> it will go away, just stay calm. it will go away. >> as you know, it is a great malaria drug, worked unbelievably on malaria and there are some strong signs it works on this. you have to go through your medical people. get the approval. but i've seen things that i sort of like. so what do i know? i'm not a doctor. i'm not a doctor. but i have common sense. i would say that you keep away until this thing is gone. it will be gone at some point. it will be gone-gone. and i would say you keep away and you do the social distancing until such time as you know it is gone. we'll know when that time is.

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the federal government's stay-at-home guidelines expire next week and an overwhelming majority of americans support the protections already in place according to the latest associated press poll. 76% of americans say they support closing bars and restaurants. people are scared. 68% favor postponing nonessential medical care, 80% support requiring americans to stay at home unless they have to run essential errands. 82% forgave -- >> by the way, those are republicans, democrats, independents. if you go into the krob tcross you will see that republicans and democrats are just about at the same place on these issues.

there is no red state america or blue state america when it comes to the pandemic. there is just a united states of america who says when do we listen to the doctors and scientists instead of politicians who are guarding about left and right on stage. >> and overall 61% say the step taken by the government to prevent coronavirus infections in their area are about right. while 12% say that they go too far. and over half of americans say that it will not be safe to lift restrictions in the next few weeks. they are reading the science here and a majority of florida voters say that the state should not loosen social distancing rules. according to a new quinnipiac university poll, 72% of florida voters oppose loosening the social distancing restrictions by the end of april. that includes 75% of florida voters over 65 years old.

joe, they are scared. >> so listen, willie, these numbers are so stark. 80% of americans support the stay-at-home guidelines right now. 80%. we haven't seen polls like that since after 9/11. i mean, 80%. 87% of americans believe what the government is doing right now as far as the stay-at-home orders are either just about right or actually not strong enough. 87%. almost 9 in 10. and 72% of floridians want the stay-at-home orders and guidelines to stay in place. and think that actually getting back at the beginning of may is too soon. so again, you know, people can take what they want from all of that. i have said i think that social

distancing, if it is allowed, people should be able to walk on beaches or public parks and public spaces. i may be a little more out there than i think most americans. but the overwhelming majority of americans believe that we need to stay locked down at least into may. >> yeah, we've been talking about this as a partisan pandemic i think a term that jon meacham coined. i think that is true from the leadership point of view, but it is actually not according to the country. there is no red, there is no blue here. you talked about the cross tabs. let me break this out because i think it is fascinating. among democrats, you might expect this, 95% of democrats believe that the restricts are about right or don't go too far. you might think that makes sense to you. how about republicans, 78% of republicans believe that the restrictions are about right or don't go far enough. 78% of republicans when you put those two groups together.

so this is not, kasie hunt, but republicans running to the side of president trump. i think it is a case of the president misreading the country. we know he watches television. we know he probably saw some protests on cable news where people were waving his flag. it turns out those were tiny protests, astroturf protests put up by one family or a few guys who posted to facebook and rallied some people in these cities. but it is not the country and i'm not just talking about democrats who didn't like donald trump, it is not republicans. again, 78% of republicans say these restrictions are about right or don't go far enough. >> and this is why, willie, to joe's point, what the president is doing in the briefing room every day, he's essentially using the same strategy that he has tried to use throughout the course of his presidency, which is to insist on his own version of reality, but we are now seeing that instead of having a

group of americans that are willing to believe that and follow that no matter what in the face of whatever other set of information is coming at them from a different place, instead of looking at that through a partisan lens, they are looking at it through the lens that the doctors, the experts, the head of the cdc, dr. birx, dr. fauci, the way that they are putting to them. and if you dig into the trust numbers, that is increasingly obvious as well. people are saying they don't trust president trump on this, they do trust the experts on this. and this is why this is such an overwhelming crisis for this president heading into the fall. >> coming up on "morning joe," our war against killer germs. a leading epidemiologist shares his strategy to fight the outbreak, next on "morning joe." "

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dr. redfield was totally misquoted on a statement about the fall season and the virus. totally misquoted. >> you were accurately quoted, correct. >> >> i'm accurately quoted in the "washington post." >> what dr. redfield was asking for, just like we ask for any h. every american to follow the guidelines, he is saying please add to that getting a flu shot.

>> and there is a good chance that covid will not come back. >> we don't know. >> and if it does come back, it is in a very small confined area. go ahead. >> great thing is, we'll be able to find it earlier this time. >> and it might not come back at all. may not come back at all. he's talking about a worst case scenario where you have a big flu and some corona. but it is also possible it doesn't come back at all. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i'm convinced of that. there will be coronavirus in the fall. >> so joining us now director of the center for infectious disease research and policy and professor in the medical school at the university of minnesota, dr. michael osterholm, author of the wood entitled "deadliest enemy." so who is right, the president or his top doctors? >> first of all, let me fine tune the message and help you understand that right now not

more than 5% of the u.s. population has been in-fwekfect with this virus. we know that it is highly infectious and it will try to infect people until 60% or 70% is infected and that is when we develop the herd immunity. so you can do the mental math. there is a lot of transmission left to come. it could even stay through the summer into the fall well into the following year. so it is here. there is no question about that. it is like the law of gravity. it is here, we'll see a lot more transmissi transmission. >> do you share the concerns of dr. fauci and others that the fall and winter months may be the worst months like we saw in 1918, 1919 because of it coinciding with flu season? does that present unique challenges that we need to prepare for today? >> yeah, i think the issue now that this is a coronavirus, not a flu virus, we're not exactly

sure where it is going to go next. i can tell youi infect millions over the months ahead. we could see huge peak es occur over the next 6 to 12 months. we could have multiple peaks. one this summer, one in the fall, one next spring and again keep thinking of 60% to 70% infected. so i think that we have to prepare for those big peaks just exactly when they will occur, i don't know. and i think that is important because i don't want people to come away and say if question don't have a fall peak like there has been predicted that we're wrong. no, you will continue to see lots and lots of transmission. we have to prepare for that. we literally are in the second inning of a nine inning game right now. >> so doctor, how do we live through that? how does our economy get restarted, how do we survive in a economically, how do we

survive that socially, how do we survive that culturally as a country. as we move forward over what likely will be at least an 18 month process. >> well, first of all, it is really important that we look at the leadership issue. and this is not a partisan statement. i've served roles in the last five presidential administrations. here in the state of minnesota, i worked for two republican governor, two democrat governor, one independent. we need fireside chat capability because it will be a really big challenge. and we've got to have a way for us to rally around that. that is the number one ingredient right now. number two, we have to greatly expand testing. we got to have people stop coming on shows like this saying test, test, test because we don't have any tests. the tests basically are limited by the number of reagents. we need a national initiative to figure out how to make these chemicals that then can do the tests. because we do need to test, but

we didn't have the capability. so that doesn't help. second thing in terms of public health programs, contact tracing and followup is important. and the third thing we've got to make sure that our hospitals are capable much handiof handling t surges. we're losing hundreds of health care workers on the job every day in these big outbreak areas because they are getting in-effected at work. so we have to protect them. those are all parts of then allowing society to move forward and keeping businesses as we can open. but until we do these other things, we'll have a hard time reopening and staying reopened. >> so minus the tests, all the other measures that you mentioned, does that create the potential for any type of scenario where we did not see the coronavirus in the fall? >> no, we'll see it. you know, it is like gravity. i can't emphasize this enough.

there is not a debate here. if you want somebody to debate on gravity, then you are debate. but the bottom line is until we get 60% or 70% of the population infected, we'll see the virus continue to fred. look at countries like singapore where everybody held them out as the standard to say look, they have controlled this thing, they know how to do this. they are now in a state of national emergency where yesterday they had the highest number of cases reported. so again, this is going to be a constant battle and whether we have a big peak this week or that week, we'll have lots of peak activities where we'll be highly challenged. that is what we have to mentally begin to prepare for as well as all the administrative issues. until we do that, we'll be in this fool's kind of position of assuming that if we just bebd the curve now get into summer we'll be okay. wake up, world, we'll be in this for months to come and that means we have to prepare

accordingly. >> are wiwillie. >> doctor, thanks for being on this morning and bringing that truth. i want to ask you about the state of georgia specifically because the president of the united states sort of turned on his heel and condemned governor kemp for opening parts of the economy tomorrow. governor kemp says some businesses can be opened. yesterday in an interview in minneapolis, you said states like georgia are headed for a train wreck. could you be specific about what you mean there and game that out a little bit? >> well, first of all, anytime you are opening up in a situation where you already have cases increasing, where your systems are already overstressed and now you are making it seem to people that they can have these close contacts, you are just adding gasoline to the fire. so in a state like minnesota for example, we still have had challenge, but incredibly high compliance with the distancing issues. we've actually been able to flatten this issue and slow it

down. had we not, we would have seen this grow very quickly too. so georgia is really sitting on a situation where i think in three to four weeks it will take that long for these cases to develop from people coming back out into the public and so forth if they do that. remember, the governor saying that they can open doesn't mean that they will open. i have a sense from my contacts in georgia a lot of them are actually questioning the governor's movement themselves. so i think that it is just a matter of again simple infectious disease epidemiology. put your people in harm's way, they will be harmed. and that is what will happen in states like georgia when they have the data showing the virus is still being transmitted. >> and as we talk about testing, you pointed to something i was interested in because i heard this from emergency room doctors and icu doctors who work in new york city who i'm in close touch with who report back after their long shifts there about false negatives in testing. you say 15% to 20% of coronavirus tests give a false

negative. one icu doctor i talked to said they're worried about the idea of at-home testing because people don't know how to use them, as to could you get more false negatives there and more people thinking that they are free and clear and going out into society. so how should we be testing? >> first of all, let's just take a step back and realize we did run into a very serious situation when the cdc was not able to get the testing out that we needed early on. but then to play catchup, the fda in many ways backed away from the very responsible that they should have of assuring that the tests that are on the market are effective and that they work the way they can. under this emergency authorization process, there are 45 of these pcr tests and over 90 antibody tests. and many of these have not been vetted, have not been sufficiently investigated to know how well they work. we know with some of the antibody tests as was described by a senior fda official, a lot

of these are crappy. so one of the things that we have to do is the fda has to take control of this. right now it is the wild, wild west for what is available for testing. we have tos a sure s s assure highest quality tests. and even then, they are not per effect tests and right now if you were to use the antibody test in most locations in this country, half of all the positives you would find would be false positives. telling people that they are protected when they are not. imagine if i told you and you were a health care worker going into a room full of covid virus that you wanted to be sure you are protected, you have positive antibody, but one out of two chances it is not real. we have to do better on these tests. so again, just test, test, test isn't the answer. we have to have tests and they have to work and we have to know how to use them and we're not having that discussion yet. it is all about what the numbers of date are and that is not getting us it an effective and comprehensive testing program in this country which we

desperately need by the way. >> so doctor, once again let's talk about the roadmap as we move forward. we're at 5% now. it will end up around 60%, 70%. a lot more americans will be infected. many more americans will die from this as we move forward, as we look at the numbers that you have presented us today. so again, my question is, if you are a small business owner, what plans do you make moving forward over the next 18 months? if you are the father of children as i am that have underlying conditions, that will mean that they will be just inasmuch danger this fall when school starts back as they would have been in spring if i would have kept them in school, mika's mom, 88, 89 years old, inasmuch

danger this fall as she is now. so i understand that we're following these lockdown orders, but knowing that we have to get to 60% or 70%, how do we do that while doing our best to keep our loved ones safe? >> and you are asking exactly the perfect question that we need to be having the national discussion on, not these debates that we're seeing right now. we have put forward for example that we need to thread a rope through the needle. how do we open up -- bringing back the youngest of our populations, young adults and younger where the frequency of serious illness or deaths a very, very low? don't want to minimize it, it can happen. but in fact are we going to continue to shelter those people in place for the next 18 or 20 months until we might have a vaccine? i don't think so. we need to start having these discussions. but on the other hand, we know that there are people who are very high risk of having much

more serious disease. how do we protect nursing homes. we've thrown long term care facilities to the wind. they are so ill prepared to deal with this. so we have to start having these discussions literally about how do we open back up, stay open in some cases, but at the same time, bubble and protect those people at highest risk. you know, let's just be clear, this is a war. this is not a battle. we are going to take casualties for months to come. but what we have to do is be thoughtful and wise. you don't want to be in that discussion where people figure out do i give this person the vent or that person the vents. but we have to have the discussions do we open back up enough so we can sustain society, not just an economy. this is not about money versus lives. this is about maintaining a society that we have desperately needed to have to get us through this. and so i think, joe, you are asking the billion dollar question. i don't have all the answers

here today. but i know until we have that discussion and people like you continue to ask these good questions, we're in the even going to have that discussion. that is what is important right now. we've got to do that. it is about society as well as it is about those we love. and can i just add, my daughter is the head of the neonatal intensive care medicine at the university of minnesota. she basically is in that room every day when women are deliveringinfec infected with this virus and i understand where you are coming from. >> doctor, thank you so much. >> and please thank your daughter on behalf of all of us for what she does every day. >> thank you. up next, the latest numbers from the labor department just crossed. we'll see if the $2 trillion economic rescue package is doing anything to stem the number of people in need of jobless benefits. and satisfias we go to break, w

know before spending your stimulus check. plus on accepting what is beyond your control through all of this. and always dr. wynn with five tips for new moms. all that and we'll introduce you to some of the incredible heros on the front lines of this pandemic. know your value.com. ♪

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we're back with breaking economic news that has come every time this week, the labor department just released the latest numbers in a record string of jobless claims. the number this week, 4.43 million americans filed for initial unemployment claims. that is now more than 26 million unemployment claims just over the last five weeks. joining us now, senior fellow at the university of virginia miller center, chris lu, he served under the obama administration. chris, great to have you with us. 26.5 million americans, more than 26 million americans in

just over the last month have filed for unemployment. another dark day of economic news today with 4.43 million claims last week. >> and willie, while this 4.4 million number is below its peak of a couple of weeks ago, this is about six to seven times higher than we ever saw during the great recession. and when you try to extrapolate the numbers out, we're probably looking right now at an unemployment rate of between 16% and 20% which is historic. and we know that the numbers probably don't fully capture the economic pain, it doesn't capture the millions who continue to have their hours cut because of covid-19. we continue to hear about people who are unable it apply for unemployment insurance because state systems are overloaded. and we're going to continue to see wave after wave of people being laid off. the next thing that i'm looking at right now is state and local governments which are being cash strapped and have threatened that unless we get an infusion

of cash from the federal government, we could be looking at teachers, police and firefighters being laid off as well. >> yeah, 26.5 million is the steepest downturn in the labor market over a five week period since the great depression, not the great recession. so i guess the question on people's minds is what blunts this? what stops us from every thursday at this time at 8:30 eastern from seeing a terrible, horrifying number when you have doctors saying yes, this will be with us through the summer and fall and perhaps into the winter? >> and sadly i think that we'll see these numbers to come, millions more applying every single week for the foreseeable future. and the problem is the economy isn't going to bounce back quickly because even if you start to open parts of the country, the hardest hit areas in the country are the places where people are losing job places like new york and california. those are not going to reopen quickly. and even when restaurants and retail starts to reopen, they won't be operating at 100%

capacity. so i think that it is incumbent upon the federal government to continue to figure out how do you provide a lifeline to a dry cleaner or a restaurant. what if they decide to bring back their workers but only for 50% of the hours. we need to figure out how you provide benefits to all of them. and then there are all kinds of other things in the system that need to be figured out. if schools are closed, then how do workers go to work without affordable child care. so this is going to take a while, years potentially, to get us out of this hole. >> more money approved by congress for that ppp program and for small businesses, the president expected to sign this week, but how long can congress continue to float the economy. chris lu, deputy secretary of labor under president obama, thanks for your time this morning. appreciate it. joining us now, vice chairman of the select committee on intelligence, democratic senator mark warner of virginia.

he has introduced a plan that would guarantee paychecks for workers furloughed or laid off during this crisis, which is much needed. i do have to ask those about something you posted on twitter that was -- we'll wait until later. something with you cooking, mark. i don't know. i want an answer on that at the end of this interview. so tell us about the plan -- at the end because we might have to leave. so the plan that you are putting on the table for furloughed workers right now who aren't getting a paycheck, would it apply to them, how would it work? >> well, i think congress has tried in good faith to blunt this, but we're seeing an economic tsunami. what we've ended up doing so far, we've done a pretty good program for the airlines at one industry, and even with some of its flaws, the ppp program for

businesses 500 and under has been replenished. but there is a lot of folks not getting the money through ppp, there is a whole lot of folks in the middle market that are getting nothing. and we're saying let's takenoth. we're saying, let's take a step back and look at what may be working better. if you look at europe, where they are doing this direct paycheck support approach, they are seeing unemployment rise between 2% and 5%. i'm saying let's not criticize what we did so far, but let's step back now and go ahead and put in place a paycheck support guarantee program for everybody up and down the food chain. pay this money directly. a percentage of people's salary, $90,000 and pay it through the payroll processors. get rid of the middle men in terms of the banks and have a much more massive support system. and what we see, mika, i've got support from folks like bernie sanders on the left. we've got interest -- a similar

proposal from josh holley, republican senator from missouri on the right. we've had interest from "the wall street journal" and "the new york times." it may be a moment to say the well intentions of what we've done so far, we need to go bigger, go direct and cut out bureaucracy and model it off of what seems to be working better in europe. that may be the approach we should take. >> right. and taking into consideration what the scientists are saying, i'm just wondering if you all have a sense that this is going to be needed and perhaps more is going to be needed given that, for example, as dr. michael osterholm said previously, he's an infectious disease and research expert on this. we're in the second inning of a nine-inning game. this is going to be going on for months and months at least. is this sustainable? >> well, i think the government has to do whatever it takes. we're in unchartered territory.

the one thing we would also suggest that -- for people that get the support and we would bring people on furloughs back to their -- reconnect them with their employer so again, that would guarantee the health insurance wouldn't go away because even with the expanded unemployment benefits we've put forward, when youssefer that employee/employer relationship, a lot of folks lose their hilt insurance. and it would be correcting what's partially the problem with the ppp program where you see companies that may be pnl companies that may not have the need or have not shown economic loss getting funds which frankly makes a lot of folks rightfully very angry. i think the treasury secretary is going to try to clarify that this morning. he's been working his tail off. i don't always agree with the trump administration but i think steve mnuchin has been working his tail off on this. one thing we'd put forward with our new initiative is a requirement that you have to

demonstrate at least 20% revenue loss. we need to do all we can to help those in need, but i think most americans are rightfully angry when they read about public companies or companies doing fine getting, for example, this ppp money. >> willie? >> senator warner, it's willie geist. you anticipated my next question. there's a lot of small businesses who couldn't get a piece of the ppp in the first round but saw big national restaurant chains getting millions of dollars. publicly traded companies getting millions of dollars. in this new stimulystetimulus b the problem been rectified? will it goes to the businesses who need it as an existential reason? if they can't survive this month if they don't get the money? >> that's our intent. that's what took us an extra week to get negotiated. at the end of the day it was a bipartisan agreement, let me be clear, but we needed to correct

some of the problems in the initial ppp. there's $60 billion set aside for very small businesses, for minority owned businesses, for folks who didn't get access the first time. matter of fact, i was just doing some spanish radio and in the hispanic community, a lot of businesses have prided themselves on the fact they've saved money to start their business and didn't go get a loan and now they are getting criticized because they didn't have a banking relationship. so we need to correct that. $60 billion is put aside. $10 billion additional as well for the emergency direct loans. that quick shot of $10,000. that should be able to get out quicker. and i do think the treasury secretary is going to put out some guidance today to make explicitly clear that if you are a public company and you got money on your balance sheet if you got access to other capital, if you've not seen an economic loss, i know unfortunately friends of mine who got this money who have money management firms.

they're not hurting at all but he'll try to clarify there will be penalties if you have other access to capital and you're going for this emergency relief. >> let's move from the economy to the intel committees. this past week, the president of the united states called members of our intel community scum. called people in the fbi scum. in helsinki, of course, you'll remember him telling the press that he trusted the words of vladimir putin more than america's intelligence community. that there had been a political grudge against him and that the intel community acted improperly. the senate intel committee, republican led, but one that you had worked very closely as ranking member with the chairman, came out with a unanimous report this week that everything the president said ended up being a lie about

political motivations that, yes, the fbi made mistakes. yes, there were mistakes made in the fisa process, but there did not seem to be a political ax to grind by anybody in the fbi. can you talk about that report that unanimous decision by republicans and democrats alike? >> joe, this was the result of three years of work. this was 158-page report that confirmed that the intelligence community when they made their assess bment about what happene in 2016, on the direct orders of vladimir putin, the russians intervened in our elections. they did it to help donald trump candidate. they did it to, frankly, hurt hillary clinton candidate. we said that before. this was the full report that comes out on that. it was unanimous, and we go from the far right to the far left on our committee. we have one more version of that

report that will come out that will go into great detail. 900 pages. it's going through its security clearance review now. that will go through in explicit detail the connections between the trump campaign and agents of russia. that will come at some point once it's gotten appropriate clearance. and the bigger question that you're raising, joe, and one i'm so concerned at with our appropriate focus on covid-19 is that we are seeing a hollowing out of our intelligence community. i wrote an op-ed where i pointed out that literally within the director of intelligence office right now there's not a senate-confirmed high ranking official. the ability of the intelligence community to speak truth to power is being undermined by this administration, by this president, and, frankly, he's got a political appointee as an acting director right now that's trying to hollow out that

independence. and countries are -- our country is weakened if the intelligence community cannot speak truth to power. their obligation to tell the president the truth, the congress the truth remains, and i fear that's being undermined. >> so senator, thank you. everything you're saying makes so much sense and, of course, is so credible, but then what are we supposed to do with this? take a look. >> what i'm about to prepare what i grew up on. i learned to make it very, very young. it is truly my real specialty. so today we're going to create a tuna melt. first of all, two pieces of bread. put them out on the plate. open up the mayonnaise. i like mayo. my kids hate mayo, but make sure you get plenty on both sides. next comes the important part.

the tuna. you need a heating device. i'm going with the mvp 5. >> oh, my god. that's just a lot of mayo. >> what do we make of this, senator. >> we're talking about a health care crisis. you are a walking pandemic. what's going on here? >> i just -- i just got to tell you, i'm not sure all of the viewers know, but joe, mika and i were all on -- judges on "top chef" a few years back. >> worst judge i've ever seen in my life. >> once i put that specialty out, tom kalikio the other day said pack up your knives, warner. i did this video. i'm seeing all these other politicians sing a song or make their mom's favorite brownie recipe. i thought i'd have a little fun. matter of fact, when weather it w -- whether it was the mayo, the

microwave, not drowning the tuna, i got more attention about that video than my whole paycheck security program or my whole op-ed on the intel community, so who knows? >> willie, the wrong kind of mayo clinic here. >> that was so gross. i don't know. senator, i get the whole thing that happened on "top chef" now, that thing you did. okay. senator mark warner. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's thursday, april 23rd. here are the facts at this important hour. we start with another stunning indication of how coronavirus is cutting the heart out of the united states economy. forcing another 4.4 million americans to file for unemployment. that number is now over 26 million since march. that comes