six states rushing to reopen in the effort to kick start the economy. the plan could back fire. and below zero dollars. how low oil prices are good for consumers. bad for many americans and terrible for the planet. "velshi" starts now. good morning. it's saturday, april 25th. i'm ali velshi. president trump plans to pare back the press briefings according to four sources familiardeliberations. that comes during the week when trump suggested that researchers investigate about with doctors could cure kroucoronavirus by t injecting people with disinfectant. here is the topic last night. >> would it be better if the president stopped doing the dog and pony shows?

>> yes. yes. he is not being constructive. we see how that he is putting lives at risk with the outrageous advice that threw gasoline on every gutter aspect of the internet with crack pot theories of how people can protect themselves or worse throwing themselves in horrible risk. >> i'll have more on that later in the show. now to the facts. the total number of fatal asiti in the united states surpassing 51,000. cases eclipsed 903,000. on friday, trump signing $484 billion relief bill to add on $310 billion to the paycheck protection program and provide aid to hospitals and testing. nbc news reporting three companies with ties to the trump administration received $18.3 million under the program of

ppp. this comes as first time unemployment claims continue to grow. last week, another 4.4 million americans filed for first time unemployment benefits. bringing the five-week total to 26 million. to give you perspective, that is more people than the combined population of the lowest 17 populated states in our country. in georgia, the second day for some non-essential businesses to reopen. including gyms, bowling alleys, tattoo salons and barber shops. this local shop owner says he is taking all of the necessary p - precautions. >> every time someone gets out of the chair, we are spraying it and wiping it down. we clean every time we go through one scissor, we put it through the ultraviolet lights.

scissors are cleaned with the chemic chemical. we are cleaner and more efficient now than we've ever been. >> we begin with nbc news correspondent mara barrett. pennsylvania is making plans for the reopening plans. i did not realize they had drive-thru self swab sites. i didn't know they combined them. >> reporter: yeah. this is something they started doing in recent weeks. one of two sites in southeastern pennsylvania. it is foggy here, but it should open in the next hour or so. as the governor is looking for a soft regional reopen on may 8181tth, experts say this is essential to make sure that there is not another outbreak as people start to go out and about during the soft reopenings. contact tracing is when people who identify as positive let

public health officials know and those officials can reach out to anybody that positive person could have come in contact to and tell them to self isolate and spider webs to protect people. i spoke with the doctor at penn medicine yesterday about why we are talking about contact tracing as people reopen. take a listen. >> health workers tend to be working behind the scenes. they are not visible to the general public. so we don't know that these are some heroes out there working hard to protect us. and now we're hearing about it because we're really thinking about next steps in this epidemic and how we might manage to really get back to something that looks more like life as we're accustomed to it. >> reporter: so the governor has said surveillance like this is

necessary as he starts to reopen businesses here. he also said he doesn't have the funding or actual plan in mind to do so. the doctor noted a lot of volunteers are helping with the tracing programs right now. so as businesses start to reopen, experts say people should be aware of knowing who they come in contact with just in case they get contacted by a tracer. ali. >> that's the smart thing to do. map out where you've been and what you touched and who you have seen. maura barrett, thank you. the business of reopening the nation on the state by state basis is a painstaking process forcing the governors to protect people's health and livelihoods. the next guest writing in the new yorker saying even as the restrictions lift, the economic crisis is unlike anything the u.s. has seen in several decades. joining me now is the staff writer at the new yorker.

the author of the book "black edge." i'm joined by joseph fair, epidemiologist and viralologist. despite the conversation with the protests and tweets from the president and conversations about the cure worse than the cause. it's a sophisticated discussion. balance between people's health and livelihoods is a discussion we're all having in our families. >> obviously the relationship is really complicated and if you wanted to make the argument that you will prioritize the economy over the official death rate, economic problems will lead to health outcomes. everything is deeply int

intertwined. the one thing people agree on without widespread testing, it will be very difficult to relaunch all of the economies. individual states can make the decisions they're making, but they will find confidence is lacking until people get tests. a lot of the economic damage we suffered so far has been exacerbated by the lack of test. if we had aggressive, widely available testing, a lot of things could have been done in a nimbler sophisticated basis. people would have found you out if they were infected earlier. it would have mitigated the damage. >> dr. fair, you are a vir viralogist. there are a few other things at play. the idea of asymptomatic people and might have been far more asymptomatic carriers than we ever thought possible.

a number of small studies have indicated that. there's the concept if you don't manage the reopening properly, you could see a surge. we saw that in some cases in places like singapore. there are some major dangers. we heard from the cdc this could become bad again come winter. >> absolutely. you know, to start off, let's start with the countries that have done well. singapore and taiwan are excellent examples. we can't use them as our model. we don't possess that legal system here. they are under marshall law under the public health emergency acts. we have public health emergency in the united states. it is not the same thing. there is a fear, not a fear, but reality that covid-19 will be with us in the fall. the fear is that will now coincide with our first pretty bad influenza season based on the last few seasons. the u.s. saw 34,000 deaths from

influenza alone last season. you combine that with the jou outbreak of covid-19 where we don't have many treatments available. none by this point. we don't have treatments available for it. you combine those two, that will combine for a larger death toll and strain on the health system. ali, we have time between now and the fall second wave to build up the supply of ppe and ventilators and ramp up diagnostic testing across the nation. my background is in diagnostics. outbreaks begin and end with diagnostics. it tells us who has it and who has had it and allows us to get back to work safely and open society safely. >> that is the denominator. you cannot determine -- in

business and economics -- if you don't know the pool, you can't make ddecisions. given the relationship which has not come from the federal government and what has come from the federal government has been shifting. the president from tweeting about liberating states to saying he told the governor of georgia not to open up the state. is there some consistency building with governors working off data or these regional association of governors that started? >> i think in this situation, you have seen a lot of the leadership move away from the federal government fear to the regional groups of governors like new york where governor cuomo has been pro-active and given a lot of guidance that is lacking at the top of the country. i think we can expect the groups of governors are starting to form the regional associations and try to coordinate because they have a lot of movement and goods between the states.

what we will probably see is a reopening in stages. of course, the testing is a really important base precursor to all of that. after that, it's going to be somewhat of a messy experiment. certain businesses, ones that have small numbers of people in them opening first. schools will open, possibly. they could have to shut again depending whether transmission rates increase in schools. there will be businesses such as restaurants that may be permitted to reopen, but asked to really limit the number of people in their establishments. that will create a lot of economic strain for the businesses. a lot of companies cannot operate below full capacity. again, that brings us to the question of the economic rescue package which is critical to helping smooth out what is likely to be a bumpy process. >> thanks to the two of you for

helping us out. the author of the book "black edge." and joseph fair. thanks to both of you. the unreality of what we're at right now. >> i see disinfectant that knocks it out in one minute. is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning. you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. >> do not ingest or inject disinfectant. next, i'll talk to two experts about the use of sunlight and bleach and hydroxyohloroquine in the fight against krounz. coronavirus. is proven to help you qu with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease

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all right. this week, president trump suggested that americans infected with the coronavirus should inject disinfectants and uv light as a way to clean the body of the virus. yesterday, he laclaimed it was sarcastic question from reporters. the mounting evidence over what he said and how he said it and decide whether it was sarcastic. >> i see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute. one minute.

is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside? i was asking a sarcastic question to the reporters in the room. >> you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. it would be interesting to check that. >> all right. whether the comments were sarcastic or not, they were irresponsible and dangerous. more than 100 people in maryland called the hotline after the conference asking about disinfectants and covid-19. poisonous substances are not the only thing he promoted. fda warning against chloroquine and hydroxyohloroquine causing heart problems and possibly death in some patients. before i bring in my guests, the president's remedy is deadly if ingested. he is not wrong about uv lights and injections killing the virus. there are limits to it.

joining me now is dr. natalie azar and dr. edward nardell. welcome to both of you. natalie, it's like people who have had experience with cancer know that radiation helps, but those of us who are not prescribed radiation don't go out and seek it because there are dangers to doing so. there is some truth hidden in some of the trump hears, but the idea he goes out and suggests these therapies is dangerous. >> definitely is. what struck me was the -- first of all, he was not questioning reporters. he was actually posing questions to his health experts. particularly dr. birx when asked about heat and light as a therapeutic. cleverly pivoted saying fever is a typical response to infection

and protected from individual and didn't acknowledge the direct question for obvious reasons. >> ed, let's talk about the ultraviolet light. we heard from people who receive shipments. keep them outside. sunlight willia kill it. we heard discussions about uv light and the benefits it could have. very different thing injecting the sunlight into you or getting the sunlight into your body. >> well, yes. sunlight can disinfect, but it is not the best disinfectant and it doesn't penetrate the body very well. it's really not a practical solution. there are artificially generated uv sources that are quite effective in room air disinfection. surface disinfection. this is not what the president

was talking about. there's no way to use this on the body or in the body. >> all right. if the president were talking to you and said, hey, i do hear ultraviolet light works. we have phone sanitizers and nail salons use them. i don't know if they work. they use the things where they put devices. hospitals use them. what version of uv light can be used as a therapeutic with respect to coronavirus if any? >> okay. actually two ways its used. surface disinfectant and for devices and respirators reused. there are devices that can be used to disinfect the respirators. the other form is upper room ge germcidal uv. it is highly effective and safe to use in occupied rooms to

disinfect the upper room air which mix wes with the lower ro air. a great deal of air disinfection in the occupied space. very safe and widely available and under used. in part because the controversy over how much of the virus transmission is actually airborne versus spread by large droplets and contact. >> natalie, i really want to talk more about the disinfectant. i should talk about the other things going on. including hydroxyohloroquine. tell me what we've learned about this. you cautioned a few weeks ago. it may have some effectiveness, but a, there are some people who really need the drug. if you are to the one of them, don't take it. if you use the drug for whatever is being treated, there are side effects or dangers. some of which can be fatal. >> yeah. absolutely. ali, this was a really

interesting week for drug candidates in general. particularly for hydroxyohloroquine. i think it really illustrates the challenge of using and testing these candidate drugs under the circumstances and balancing the concept of compassionate use and do no harm. this week was interesting. the nih on tuesday released treatment guidelines. if in there, they said there was insufficient evidence to recommend for or against any therapeutic except for a steroid to use in critically ill patients who are experiencing shock. leaving that aside. fda went a step further yesterday and said that hydroxyohloroquine or chloroquine should not be used in the outpatient setting. it can and should be used only in the in-patient setting in the setting of the clinical trial. why is that? when i was treating patients on the covid-19 floor a couple of weeks ago, we did give our

patients of hydroxyohloroquine and azrithomycin, but they had oxy on and we were performing ekgs on them. we were monitoring the electrical connections to the heart which can lead to an ri arithmia. we saw in the jama, we saw double patients in the high dose chloroquine group actually died. that was on top of the v.a. study from the week earlier that did not show promising results from hydroxyohloroquine. it showed a higher percentage of death in the patients receiving hydroxyohloroquine. all told, this illustrates the challenge of using these medicines and i think it gives

us all pause. we need to await the results of well designed clinical trials. i know how difficult it is. we want to give our patients everything we have in the tool box. we need a bit of restraint. >> ed, you were quoted in the "slate" magazine article. it bugs me to see restrictions of people outside. mental health means something as well. tell me in the context of that. >> i think social distancing is important, but you know, staying inside all the time is stressful on people. outside, we have an opportunity and most cases to be further apart and to enjoy the sunshine and being outside and i think relatively little risk if one also maintains social distancing outside. there are concerns about groups on beaches, et cetera, being able to transmit.

other than that, going for a walk is the best thing you can do during the period of lockdown or social distancing. likewise going for a bike ride or whatever with you do for exercise. >> thanks to both of you this morning. dr. natalie azar and dr. edward nardell. now a moment to honor one of thousands of americans we lost to coronavirus. 75-year-old faye jackson of mobile, alabama was a nurse known for generosity. faye was born in jamaica in 1944. she moved to mobile with her husband henry jackson in 1967. faye raised their twins while traveling as a critical care nurse for over 20 years. she worked as a shift manager at the crown health care nursing home. she kept chickens and enjoyed sharing eggs with her coworkers.

her grandson recalls how her jamaican cooking brought the family together. it was a blessing the love she had for us. had for us

on monday, at 10:30 a.m., banks will begin to sign off on more forgivable loans or grants for businesses tries to survive the coronavirus pandemic. $60 billion of the relief package has been set aside for businesses that don't already have established banking relationships like many rural or minority own companies. they were left out of the first round compared to the larger companies. whether it is getting federal back loans or raising capital another way, how can small entrepreneurs, the kind with

tight cash flow without lawyers and accountants, how can they stay afloat? joining me now is the chairman of the black economic alliance and executive chairman. thanks for joining us. tony, in my neighborhood in manhattan, i go around and there are little restaurants and bodegas. obviously they have bank accounts, but don't enjoy chummy relationships with the managers of the banks or in-house accountants or chief financial officers and get an application in at 10:30 a.m. on monday. that business lost out entirely in the last amount of money that went to masmall businesses. >> that's true. most of the small businesses are

either unbanked or under banked. not a reliable or consistent relationship with the big banks that we know very well. in the gap, the community development financial institutions, credit unions and small minority banks do provide capital for the businesses. it is critical we preserve the capital devoted for the businesses in order to get to the minority businesses. that's happened in the latest round of stimulus and recovery funding. 20% of that grant has been ka carved out of the loan program. there is more work to do. >> kimberly, one of the things you point out is that they could try in this legislation to keep tweaking it the way tony described to set aside money for the kinds of businesses we're talking about. the problems really with the

banking system. it doesn't support these businesses in the same way it supports larger corporations that enjoy banking relationships that are more profitable to the banks. >> it's really the entire experience with the paycheck protection program has shown us that if a government program is designed to be first come first serve which is the intent. when people sign up for a private bank. if you have $25 million and go to a large bank. the way they get your account is with white glove service. your corner shop is not going to have. that means you don't wait on hold. you don't go through a web importa portal that doesn't work. you call someone up and they scoot you to the front of the line. we saw that in the first wave of p ppp funding. the money that is not set aside as your guest mentioned, although there is supposedly $250 billion, it is already

spoken for because the lines are so long of the smaller business whose ne who need the money. applying now is really important that we ask the smaller banks or money set aside to pick up now they have a little bit more capability to do so. we ask business owners to seek them out because it's clear the larger banks weren't able to handle this in the way it was intended to be rolled out. >> tony, we're now up to $600 billion when this next amount of money goes out. last you and i talked, i think you estimated it was double the amount of money we needed. the bottom line is, if it is, still another $600 billion that is needed or however is needed, it is going to be the least among us in terms of businesses that will get that. you are probably still talking to small business people who can't gather the information

because they never had to go to the bank for a loan. most of the small businesses in america just don't do that. >> there are three specific things that we think will actually help and make a difference for the banks. the estimates are between $1 trillion and $1.5 trillion of need. we have $600 billion between the last recovery provision and this recovery provision, we have a long way to go in satisfying the need for all businesses. the three things we can do to make sure to borrow your words that the least among us get to benefit are the following. one, ensuring the small businesses have a technical assistance to complete the application. most of them don't have lawyers and accountants on retainer. they don't have the facility with the data and information required. the community development financial institutions play a critical role in providing this technical assistance. two, we can encourage treasury

to provide additional guidance for businesses. these funds should go to businesses with 10 to 20 employees. most minority employees have small bases. we can ensure the money is getting to the places to build the community support for the jobs we need in the communities. finally, we should be encouraging treasury or the big banks to repurchase the loans from the cdfi. the reason is this provides liquid docto liquid docto liqu liquid liquidity to recycle the money through. the big banks have the ability to do this. treasury can do this. we think it would be a great solution to complement what has been provided in the carve out. >> just to remind people, that's how mortgages work in the country. your mortgage gets resold so the bank has the amount of money to

lend to someone else. we need to solve the problem. i appreciate the work you are doing to get it done. tony coles and kimberly wise. i have been asking you to share your coronavirus stories with me. good, bad and ugly. this week, sherri writes to me. dear ali. i was in a car accident 27 years ago and became disabled. i was a special ed school aide. now between ssi and social security, i receive $753 a month. i received $170 in food stamps and help from the home energy assistance program. my two grown sons help me. i go to the food bank and i'm grateful. i did not ask to be disabled. i have a college degree and live on pennies. as of today, my friend and i have made over 500 masks.

that's how low income folks live. send me your stories and videos to mystory@velshi.com. bill gates has worarned abo pandemic for years. now he says life will never been the same. why now it is time to leave science to the scientists. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'll go for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. what's next? sharing my roots. don't stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve

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in his book "other people's money" the supreme court justice wrote that sunlight is said to be the best disinfectants. basically he was arguing that if government activity were more visible to the public, there would be less corruption. this week, this all came together on the strange white house coronavirus task force briefings. donald trump evoked sunlight and disinfectant in separate thoughts. upon hearing sunlight kills the coronavirus, he said posuppose hit the body with tremendous whether it is ultraviolet light. suppose you bring the light in through the body. intriguing. last week, i mentioned before

something is a breakthrough, it say crazy idea. he wasn't done with the amateur science outing. on the disinfectants, he offered this. i see the disinfectant that it knocks out in one minute. is there a way we can do that with an injection? it gets in the cleanings of the lungs. it is interesting to check that. i am no scientists, but let the scientists check that before doing it at home. trump admits he isn't a doctor, but touting snake oil treatment since march after he realized the prognostication two months ago that the number of coronavirus sufferers will go from 15 to zero wasn't going to come to pass. as he does in the face of backlash, trump chose to walk

this harmful medical advice back. he said he was sarcastic. the number of coronavirus in the united states is approaching 1 million. more than 50,000 people are dead. just yesterday, more than 2,000 people in america died from the thing that trump administration and right-wing media backers delayed taking seriously until it was too late. trump has no idea what he is talking about. sarcastic or not. america has faced the security guard scourge of science deniers for decades. let's leave science to the scientists. e to the scientists

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welcome back. co- founder of microsoft bill gates published a 16-page paper which discusses what we are finding ourselves in right now. one topic is the shortage of testing machines and how quote there will be a temptation for

companies to buy these machines for employees or customers, but they will be able to bid much higher prices than our health system can afford. yesterday, i, along with dr. emanuel with university of pennsylvania, asked dr. gates to see how we prevent this from becoming a bidding war. >> of all of the things i'm most surprised about the federal government response, the unwillingness to get involved in test prioritization is the most amazing. you know, other countries who wrote their pandemic plans, the idea of getting the pcr capacity up and making sure it was going to the right people with quick results. that was the day one thing. it shouldn't be that hard. we have pcr machines not used well. understanding the logic. the foundation has driven the

work to get the front end swabbing simplified to have the cheek swabs to hand out everywhere. as soon as you feel symptoms, get the swab, take it, and send in to have the pcr machine tested. today a lot of the tests you get the results so late or it's the wrong person being tested so our capacity, when people look at those numbers, the u.s. is the worst at test prioritization. if we're not careful, it will get even worse because, of course people want -- an employer wants to make sure that nobody's coming in and infecting people. and so if we had infinite testing capacity, hallelujah, go ahead, buy those machines. test your asymptomatic employees every day, but that, you know, we have 330 million people in o and our testing capacity is

under 200,000 a day right now. so you can't test a meaningful percentage of the population even say a week. you can't even do 1%. we're about a third below that. it's kind of insane that we're not prioritizing the testing capacity even as it grows to go to the right applications. >> both zeke and i teach at penn and we talk to students a lot and i asked my son to read this paper. like a lot of students they are most desperate to understand when normalcy resumes, and because of the way our calendar works, a lot of people understand that this semester is gone for all schools. the summer may be gone, but hopefully by september things are back to normal. you make a brief reference to schools in your paper. do you think that life starts to look normal by fall or by times like that? >> no, it won't be fully normal.

you know, the boundary for normalcy is either the sort of miraculous level of effective therapeutics, which is that 95% discussion, and i'm not sure therapeutics will ever get to that level, although a few like antibodies do have a great deal of promise. the most likely way to get back to normal is where you're able to produce the vaccine and get it out and dose a high enough percentage of your population that you cannot have exponential spread. and i talk about that as being sort of a one-year to two-year because we're backing enough of these constructs, some of which are novel, some of which are more traditional, i do think that we will get back to normal, but you know, that's quite a range of time, and you know all of 2021 could stay in that seminormal state, not locked down like we are right now, but

having to tune, you know, still wearing masks almost certainly and still not doing large public gatherings. and then getting the testing capacity up so you could see the hot spots and get those people quarantined and maybe for some areas, you know, as we learn the disease dynamics like in meat packing plants or subways that you change what you allow there. >> one of the things that zeki and i found interesting in your paper is the reference you make to the fact that this is going to be era-defining in a way not like the recession, not even like 9/11, not even vietnam, you're talking about world war ii level redefining how we think and behave. in what ways do you think we will fundamentally change once this is behind us? >> well, i definitely think we'll take the risk of a second pandemic seriously and make some of the foundational investments, and many of those will create

medical tools that will be beneficial for diseases in both infectious diseases and diseases like cancer that, you know, it's great to make progress on those things. i do think using digital approaches and maybe not traveling quite as much that even after you get rid of this threat that people will have been so immersed in it and the, you know, tools and techniques will have improved enough that we'll, you know, take what would have been 10 to 15 years of digital adoption and cram it into a very short period. like wise, you know, behaviors around shopping or how people get in touch with each other, and so a lot of it's an acceleration of trends, you know, like a move to online shopping that were already there. you know, thank goodness the internet has enough capacity that its ability to let us

connect, share information is very strong. ten years ago that would not have been the case, and so, you know, we've jumped on that, and it's helped some, particular for white collar jobs. it's actually surprising to me, the productivity levels for some activities are not greatly reduced, and i wouldn't have expected that to go as well. you know, sadly for lower income people who do physical service type jobs, there is no digital substitute. >> and that is key for a whole lot of people, particularly those earning minimum wage. there is no substitute. coming up, my interview with senator bernie sanders. senator sanders is still pushing medicare for all, but he's made a bit of a concession. we're going to talk about that in the next hour. you are watching "velshi" on msnbc.

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welcome back, i'm ali velshi. let's get right to the facts. a number of confirmed cases of covid-19 nearing the 1 million mark in the united states as the death toll climbs above 51,000. that number likely to get much higher due to insufficient testing. and while cases are plateauing in big cities, confirmed coronavirus cases are steadily rising in rural areas as some states already begin to ease stay at home orders. but coronavirus testing continues to fall short across the united states. currently, we've tested about

1.5% of the population. in new york, the epicenter of the virus where governor cuomo is pushing for widespread testing of coronavirus antibodies, preliminary results show that up to 2.7 million new yorkers may have already been infected with covid-19 at some point. that's more than ten times the number of confirmed cases within the states, and this raises new questions about when the disease started and how fast it could have spread since the first reported case here in america. >> how can you expect that when you act two months after the outbreak in china the virus was only in china waiting for us to act? the horse had already left the barn by the time we moved. we closed the front door with the china travel ban, which was right even in retrospect it was right, but we left the back door open because the virus had