mendez. nearly two months into the battle against the deadly coronavirus pandemic states are debating how and when they can return to some sense of normalcy. while businesses across georgia such as nail salons and gyms are now able to reopen per the governor's orders, some are deciding to remain closed. georgia is among the first states to begin easing some lockdown restrictions, however, medical experts are warning that it is still too soon. although president trump initially pushed for states to reopen, he's backtracked his support of governor kemp's reopening plan. >> we're starting re-intervijuv of our economy again in a safe and structured and very responsible fashion. we have a lot of people that don't have to be told to do what they're doing. he's a very capable man. he knows what he's doing. he's done a very good job as governor of georgia. i told brian kemp that i disagree strongly with his decision.

but at the same time, he must do what he thinks is right. i wasn't happy with brian kemp. i wasn't at all happy because -- and i couldn't have done something if i wanted to, but i'm saying let the governors do it. >> and according to polling, the majority of americans aren't in any rush to reopen. a new "associated press" poll shows only 12% of americans say the lockdown measures where they live go too far. 26% believe limits don't go far enough. and a solid majority believe steps to stop the spread of coronavirus where they live are about right. with me now is ceo and editorial of "insider." national political correspondent for yahoo! news, and a white house reporter for the "l.a. times." i want to talk about the use of disinfectants inside the human body to fight coronavirus. take a listen. >> i see the disinfectant where

it knocks it out in a minute. is there a way we can do something like that -- by injection inside or -- or almost a cleaning. as you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. >> the president claims he sarcastic. many are outraged. what are advisers saying? >> a lot of them were appalled and further cringing yesterday at the attempt to sort of get past there by first blaming the press, that statement came from the new press secretary. then the president claiming that he had been meaning this sarcastically because he was upset with reporters. you played the clip. you don't sense any sarcasm, you sense a person freelancing, ad-libbing at the podium, and throwing out this possibility that most people would understand is sort of ludicrous, the idea that there would be an

injection of a disinfectant inside the body that could cleanse things. but he was just riff'ing as he has been every night doing briefings. you know, again, you have the mixed messages, the inconsistency. you know, maybe we can do this, and then of course, don't do this. maybe it's time to open, i have absolute authority, no, it's time, you know, to let the governors decide and actually after he politicized this and says let's liberate states, it's i'm very upset with brian kemp. so there's this whiplash that everybody, the country is getting, and i think they feel that inside the white house, too. and that's why there are a lot of discussions taking place now and in the last couple of days really about maybe it's time to stop with the daily briefings because the campaign, people around the president, they all share the belief that these nightly performances are hurting him. everybody has -- you know, been upset about the free airtime he has been getting. it has not been working for him.

that's the sense you get when you talk to people in the campaign, around the campaign, and in the white house. and so i think at this point they are potentially looking to dial this back, to maybe take the president out of the briefing room, to claim that the crisis is more or less passed so they don't have to brief every day. whatever the fig leaf will be, they'll come up with one. but this is a real concern that these performances are hurting the president. >> henry, as eli says, it was ludicrous and incredibly dangerous. and you had health officials scrambling to clarify. take a listen. >> hydroxychloroquine. it's shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results. >> i'm not totally sure what the president was referring to. many of the things that you hear out there are what i had called anecdotal reports. they may be true, but they're anecdot anecdotal.

>> it might not come back at all, might not come back at all. he's talking about pay worst case scenario where you have a big flu and ukraicorona. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i am convinced of that. >> have you heard of that, the heat and light, certain viruses, yes, but for this? >> not as a treatment. >> there's an appetite to have a conversation about what a reopening will look like, when it can happen, how it will happen. how does it complicate that conversation to have the type of doublespeak that you just heard? >> thank you, alicia. basically what we lack now is a plan. we need strong, clear leadership. it's not a mystery, most of the experts agree on what we need to do, we need to develop a massive amount of more testing capacity. test and trace capacity, isolation and quarantine capacity. we can start doing that now, and then we can give states freedom

to apply it when they see fit. it doesn't have to be nationwide all at once. as you say and as we see, every day it's improvisation, lack of thinking things through, it's on the fly. maybe there's something that's going to save us from having to do what may sound like boring and disciplined work. that's actually the approach we need to take. it's not mysterious. and we're close where some states ought to be very close to being able to take the next step. not a complete opening up, not everybody runs back, we go back to normal. but gradually loosening restrictions. but unfortunately, we've wasted so much time in building up the necessary capacity on testing and tracing, which we just don't have at this point. >> brittany, a yahoo! news ugov survey found that 60% of americans oppose the protests calling for an monday end to lockdown restrictions. who then are governors listening to as they're deciding whether or not to reopen their states? >> well, you're seeing that

republican governors are trying to kind of hedge their bets against what they're hearing from the white house. i think it's important to remember that it's still an election year. in november, many republican allies are going to be up for re-election. so there is a hedging of bets on, you know, if you essentially piss off the president, will you be put in bad graces if you criticize these protests. or you know, if you keep quiet, will you be put in his good graces, so maybe you get money or basically clout via his twitter to maintain safety with the republican party. and i think that this flip-flopping that you're hearing on hydroxychloroquine, on brian kemp, on opening and closing states are also hearing about these crowds to. you know, donald trump said several times this week that he saw photos of the protesters, and they were social distancing. i'm not sure what photos he was saying, but that certainly isn't the case. you're hearing him say on last saturday that he was sure that these protests were essentially in good faith and that everybody

wants to go back to work. and that is essentially true. there are a lot of people who want things to go back to the status quo, but we saw in the yougov and yahoo! poll that many people think testing is not enough, and they're scared and unsure about reentering the work force unless there's clear directives from the white house and scientists that it's -- we're ready to go back, and what you hear from anthony fauci and dr. birx is we're not there yet. >> eli, if you were a republican governor and you watched the back and forth that happened between the president and governor kemp, what's the message to you, and how does that then play into your own thinking about whether or not to reopen your state? >> well, it just reinforces that you can't trust anything the president tells you. you can't trust any promise of political cover that he might be willing to give. and you have to look at the protests and understand that this is the president who has politicized this question of whether or not to reopen. he is the one who's gone after democratic governors in states like michigan, virginia, about

different things, and he has brought these people out. these protests, a lot of them they look like trump rallies. there are people with the tea party flags, people with signs bashing george soros. there is a trump-driven phenomenon, these protests. the governors also are looking at polling and seeing that the people who are out at these protests appear to be a small minority of the overall electorate. they are seeing that there's a lot more popularity for following the science, allowing the science and the public health guidances, the experts to drive the decisionmaking here, and you know, ultimately, the president has come down there, too, because after he's fomented protests, he's fallen back in line with some -- with dr. fauci and dr. birx and some of their guidance saying, look, we can't just open up these tattoo parlors and beauty salons. we're not ready to do that yet. you can see the president doesn't want to be blamed for this going badly. the reopening either. even though he's obviously been the one clamoring for it.

i think you're a governor, you have to sit back and make the most prudent decision based on what the public health experts are telling you. and sort of tune the politics out at this point. >> henry, there is a fundamental question of what it will take for americans to feel safe. as you look at this landscape, as we talk about testing and antibodies, what is it going to take for americans to cross that precipice? >> i think that brings up a very important point come is it's being framed that the reason the economy is shut down and we're all hiding is just government edict, there wouldn't be happening -- this wouldn't be happening without the government making wrong decisions and so forth. it's not true. we would all be in hiding, taking as much precaution as we could anyway, and i think to the point about what makes people feel safe, it's, again, a clear plan with disciplined steps, having the testing in place, having a plan for contact tracing and quarantine, and then gradually showing people that it

can work. that we can open and you can maintain distancing, and that we're not going to lose control of the epidemic again. and i think to your prior question with eli, one thing governors could do is actually look back at the 1918 epidemic, a very long time ago. but i think one of the lessons there that's very clear is that the cities that opened up too early then had to close back down again. and they often didn't get control of the second wave. and often they were in a position where they actually had to stay with lockdown measures longer than some of the cities that just waited a little bit longer before they started opening again. there's definitely historical examples we can point to to say just be a little bit more patient. and interestingly, the last comment, before he backtracked again when he said he strongly disagreed with governor kemp in georgia, the president actually had the right view. he just said, just be a little bit more patientment let's wait a little bit longer. >> all right. henry, brittany, eli, thank you

all so much. up next, florida's beaches are starting to reopen. i'll ask the mayor of miami beach if they're ready. the white house rules on immigration. president trump says it's in response to the coronavirus crisis, but the ban might last much longer than 60 days. onger e shipping. you get thousands of items you need to your door fast the way it works best for you. even the big stuff. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match on your schedule. you get free two day shipping on things that make your home feel like you! wayfair. way more than furniture. a lot of folks ask me why their dishwasher doesn't get everything clean. i tell them, it may be your detergent... that's why more dishwasher brands recommend cascade platinum... ...with the soaking, scrubbing and rinsing built right in. for sparkling-clean dishes, the first time. cascade platinum.

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during his daily briefings he said that some of the governors he feels have gone too far. it is quite remarkable if not --

florida's stay-at-home order is scheduled to end on friday. and although businesses and many beaches hope to be up and running soon, some residents aren't quite ready to drop their guard yet. a recent quinnipiac poll found nearly a quarter of floridians think the end of april is too soon to loosen social distancing rules. joining me now is dan gelbert, mayor of miami beach, florida. folks across the country saw the footage of beaches in jacksonville opening. clearly not abiding by social distancing rules. you have said that even if the county lifts the ban you're likely not to open your beaches until early june.

talk me through your thinking on that decision. >> listen, everybody in the world knows how beautiful our beaches are, but unfortunately the eight miles of our beaches cannot be opened -- they'll just attract too many people. we are not a city built for social distance, so we have to be extra careful given the millions, millions of people that would flock to our beaches. >> i'm curious what you think happens, though, between where we are now and early june, that even puts you in a position to think about opening beaches in a month's time. >> well, what we're doing is, look, we're a hospitality community. we've got hotels, restaurants and bars, we're going to start to open things up. there are actually workable, efficient tests. until the features are available, even the cdc

guidelines say you shouldn't do anything. we were the first community in florida to shelter at home. the first to close our beaches. the first to require masks. because we're strictly not a city that typically in its normal cannot do all those things. people come to our city to gather and crowd around one another and to -- you know, to enjoy themselves. we have to be cautious. >> the miami beach finance chair called you a, quote, dictator, not a word that people throw around loosely in south florida, for not reopening the economy faster. he says you aren't paying enough attention to the damage done to businesses. i would love to give you the chance to respond. >> i think he's the lone voice on our commission. i speak every day to the people that matter most after my residents, i speak with physicians, public health specialists. every one of them, this is at the root despite the monstrous economic issues, this at the root is a health care crisis. you've got to talk to people who

are health care specialists. they are unanimous. they do not think it's a wise thing to open up. and by the way, if we open up too early, obviously what's going to happen is we're going to have to close and then nobody will trust us. so we've got to do this right, and we've got to make it an informed, health-based decision. >> as a mayor, i'm sure that you have your eye on what is happening on capitol hill. you have mitch mcconnell saying that any future stimulus package is not going to include any money for local governments. for you as a mayor practically, what does that mean? >> listen, we've had to do the things that cities that are having budgetary pressures are doing. we're furloughing a few people. we're dipping into our reserves. you know, unfortunately, the -- the federal government hasn't been particularly kind to cities about a lot of things. frankly, this is just one of them. we're going to get by. but it would be nice if somebody up there would notice that it's not just my residents, we're a

small city, it's the fact that we are the tip of the economic iceberg for -- for the entire state. a lot of cities need help now. and i think we're getting the cold shoulder which i don't understand why. we all represent the same people, whether you're in congress or whether you're a mayor. >> all right. mayor, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. testing and tracing are crucial to getting the country open for business. up next, i'll talk to a pair of doctors to see where we are and what more needs to be done to get america's testing up to par. and as more european countries begin to reopen, what america can learn from their experience. to america's frontline responders, thank you.

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spain is one of the nation's hit hardest by the coronavirus, and the country's starting to take steps to reopen beginning tomorrow. spain has the second most cases of any country in the world, only falling behind the u.s.

in more than 22,000 people have died. let's bring in nbc's william marks from madrid. what will the first phase of reopening look like? >> reporter: well, already here in spain some nonessential retail stores, news agents, opticians, they've been allowed to open. more recently, though, there's some announcements now from the prime minister here, pedro sanchez, tonight in fact that as of next weekend spaniards will be allowed out of lockdown to exercise and walk. right now in madrid, it's incredibly belief to travel around without getting checked by the police. we've got police cars coming past us every 20 minutes or so checking people's papers, if they're out and about. the real sweet relief, though, is for parents. tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m. kids have been on lockdown in their homes for six weeks. they're being allowed out for the first time at 9:00 tomorrow morning. they'll be allowed to run, to walk, to use a scooter or a bike. they will not, authorities say, be allowed to play any ball

games. >> as a parent, i can only imagine what a relief that is. how about other countries in europe? where are they in the stage of reopening? >> reporter: so we just heard today from the belgian authorities. they're going to allow some fabric stores to open on may 4th. people can go and buy materials to make their own masks. maybe 11 -- may the 11th, there will be other stores opening. may 18th, schools will reopen doors for the first time. kids there will be able to go to school, but only ten students per class. france, they're talking about reopening as of may the 11th. italy talking about may the 4th, but no details about how that timetable will work. germany's allowing some small stores open and gatherings of up to 20 people with permission. norway, which has been not too badly hit by this, they've extended the ban on large gatherings of more than 500 people. that's things like musical events, sporting events, until september the 1st, alicia.

>> do you have a sense of what the atmosphere is like in spain? are people ready for this to be lifted? >> reporter: yeah, i've been speaking to a lot of american parents the last couple of days. as you might imagine, ahead of tomorrow morning. they are absolutely thrilled at the prospect they'll be allowed to go out. what was interesting is when the government announced that kids would be allowed out here, initially they said all they'll be able to do is go with their parents to the grocery store and the pharmacy. the absolute essentials. there was such a massive public backlash to that that within three or four hours the government said they're allowed out for one horse a d-- one hou day, so far as they're near the home. that's made people happy about that. we've seen horrific death tolls over the last few weeks. they are getting much better. all of these measures, i should say in many countries, contingent on the death tolls continuing to fall. >> all right. thank you so much for that great reporting. the key to reopening here in the states is widespread

coronavirus testing. states with hotzi zone areas ar hoping to accurately track the number of infections. now the world health organization report that those who test positive for antibodies are not immune to covid-19. that there is a possibility they can get the virus again. joining me now is pulmonologist and an nbc news and msnbc medical contributor, and dr. adalga, scholar at johns hopkins senior for health security. great to see you both. dr. adalga, i wonder what you make of the report from the w.h.o. about antibodies being present in the body, not necessarily warding off future infection. >> it's not surprising. we haven't had enough time to actually understand what these antibodies mean. if you extrapolate from other coronaviruses, we know that people develop antibodies and over time they wane. they can be spirexperimentally reinfected. it's not a guarantee that you can't be reinfected. there is probably some immunity

that occurs, but it probably wanes over time. we have the question, what the duration of immunity is before we go give people advice on what to do if they're antibody positive. >> there's also a question of how accurate the tests are. "the new york times" has reported that of the 14 tests that are available on the market, only about three offer consistently reliable results. how does that complicate studying the disease and figuring out how we move forward? >> that's a big problem. and it's why i think we made it to stop talking about antibody testing as a country. antibody testing shouldn't have any role as part of a return to work strategy. it's a good and you'll exercise, be nice to know who's been exposed to get a sense of point prevalence. those are all important pieces of information. but we should be talking about saliva testing. this is great research out of yale that confirmed research out of rutgers, a tech that was approve -- a saliva test that was approved by the fda

recently, scientists. what we're seeing is that saliva testing's probably the way out of our current supply chain bottlenecks. the swabs we need for nasal testing. saliva outperformed nasal testing. it doesn't require the supplies that we don't have enough of. so we need to be messaging on what can we scale, potentially what could us as the user, you and i, what could we collect on our own by spitting into a tube. so these are the types of innovations that people are researching, that are scaleable. we should be talking more about them, not antibody testing. >> so wait, i want to stay with you then, dr. gupta, which if it is so apparent that saliva testing is the path forward, what then is the holdup? >> well, fda is on the right track. rutgers is the first -- there's a group of scientists out of rutgers that have just gotten approval. but it's clinician supervised testing, meaning as a doc, dr. hidalga or myself or a provider

needs to see you alicia collect your own spit. we know saliva can be transferred over 48 hours in ambient temperatures. so the specimen will be stable. let's -- let's empower people to test their spit at home. send it back into a lab. and that's how we get the mass testing quickly and scale aebly. >> dr. adalga, there was reporting that stopped me in my tracks. reports of people in their 30s being affected by strokes as a result of having covid-19. and i feel like in the process of reporting out the story, part of what has been so complicated is that we have watched this virus manifest in different ways, in different people, in different populations. i want to know both what you make of these -- these anecdotes of folks who are having the strokes, but also how it makes it more complicated to tackle this virus when it is showing up differently for different people. >> there is something that we've been watching closely, trying to understand what the different

manifestations are. we know that people that get infected with the virus can have an overreaction, an inflammatory response that can affect multiple different organ systems. one organ system that it can affect or one system it can affect is the blood clotting. we have been hearing about clots occurring in the lungs and now also in large vessels that are supplying the brain. so individuals can have very little or no symptoms at all but yet have an occlusion of one of the arteries supplying the brain and have a stroke. it's important to remember this is still preliminary data, there's a very -- a small number of cases like that, but it's something to think about as clinicians. and also if you're a patient and you have symptoms of a stroke, you need to get to the hospital very quickly. it does make it hard. this is realtime learning we're doing. we don't know exactly who has coronavirus and who doesn't have coronavirus. it argues for being able to test for coronavirus easily so that you don't have to worry about supply constraints, so that you can rule this in or out in your patients. even if they have an odd

presentation that isn't usually what we expect with coronavirus. because this is something that's new, and if there are different manifestation that's haven't been cataloged yet, it's going to take time for medical science to preshly appreciate all -- fully appreciate all the manifestations in deficit types of people. >> dr. gupta, if testing is this critical to the economy reopening, to getting america back to normal, whatever that looks like on the other side of this, does that testing need to be nationalized in order to be effective? >> absolutely, alicia. you know, we site the success stoirs, whether -- we cite the success stories, whether talking about north korea, spain, italy, they had a national strategy in common. it wasn't, hey, georgia, you do there thing, florida, open up your beaches, us here in washington state and new york, we're living under a different regime. it just -- it doesn't work like that. we all need to be adherent to federal leadership. we need our federal leaders to act, to use federal resources,

and to message appropriately. no, this has to be national, and this has to be unified, absolutely. >> dr. adalja, i had, you know -- they were called antibody testing and intellectual exercise. i do have a question that i am curious to ask so i'm going to ask it was you, which is if there are all these people who have the antibodies present, have clearly been exposed to covid-19 but have not actually presented symptoms, does that change our understanding of the mortality and morbidity rates of this virus? >> it definitely does because we've had this problem of what we call a denominator problem. we don't know how widespread the infection is. we know a lot about community spreading respiratory viruses, they can get very far very fast. they have the spectrum of illness where some people might have mild symptoms, some may have no symptoms. and they don't get tested. that is important because when we look at our models that are looking at hospitalization rates and case fatality ratios, they're kind of using the best denominator they can. but that denominator is likely underestimating the number of cases by 10 or maybe 20-fold

which then gives a very different hospitalization number. maybe it's only 5% of people that get hospitalized. and the case fatality ratio will drop, which will help us plan for the future. it will also help us adjust our risk perception of the virus and understand where to place it in our minds in terms of all the other viruses and threats that we have. i do think it's really important that we understand what the denominator is, what the spread of this virus has been, and how long it's been spreading in the united states. >> all right. doctors, thank you both so much for your time. it is great to see you both. up next, a temporary ban on immigration that might not be that temporary. ht not be that temporary

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the best entertainment experience all in one place. president trump signed an executive order wednesday to pause the issuance of green cards for 60 days. this he says is to ensure americans and not immigrants get jobs when the economy rebounds. after the 60 days, he can choose to extend the pause. trump's temporary immigration ban comes at a time when immigrants in this country already feel under attack. the supreme court is weighing whether or not trump can terminate the daca program. this week the high court agreed to consider a new filing arguing the decision to end daca should be blocked because of the pandemic. for the record, 20,000 daca recipients work in the health care field. as trump talks about protecting american jobs from immigrants, mixed status families who file joint taxes are disequaled from getting stimulus -- disqualified from getting stimulus checks. this week the education department is barring all

undocumented students and most international students from receiving much-needed emergency college grants. darla lynn is an immigration report for pro-publica. also with me, executive director of the national immigration forum. when we talk about the ban that we talked about at the top of that intro, tell me what does it practically mean? >> so, the ban doesn't cover all green cards. it doesn't allow people who are currently in the u.s. and applying for green cards. that's unaffected. it doesn't touch unemployment -- sorry, employment-based green cards. you know, based on people who have jobs that are willing to sponsor them. so in effect, it covers relatives of green card holders and relatives like parents and siblings. this is ironic because it's also -- those are also the kind of worries along with the diversity visa which is also suspended under the -- green cards for whichever -- also suspended under this, that the trump administration has been trying

to get congress to eliminate as it pushes for a more merit-based immigration system. there's an argument that at least for 60 days the legal immigration system to the u.s. looks a lot more like the trump administration has wanted it to all this time. >> ali, why is this happening right now in the middle of a global pandemic? >> well, that's a really good question because at the end of the day, americans regardless of whether they're native born or immigrants and u.s. citizens, all of us are scared. we're scared for our economic well-being, our personal health. the trump administration's capitalizing on that fear to through this order over time slash legal immigration by 33%. what this means is that communities across the country are going to lose purchasing power that comes with immigrants, that they're going to lose the entrepreneurial spirit that comes with immigrants. at the end of the day, covid-19 impacts all of us, and all of us need to be a part of the response and recovery to this

global pandemic. >> dara, senior adviser steven miller said on a call with surrogates thursday morning, according to someone who was on the call, quote, we all need to be out there publicly promoting this vital action and emphasizing that we have the president that stands with american workers, and we have a political opposition in this country that does not. the most important thing is to turn off the faucet of new immigrant labor. mission accomplished with signing that executive order. it would seem that steven miller has longer term goals than a 60-day ban, dara. >> so that may very well be the case. i think there are two questions here. one is whether the -- when you think about whether this action means all that much, conflicts around the world are currently essentially closed for the issuance of new visas anyway because of the public health threat. so in order to believe that this order is going to be what really changes things, you have to assume that at some point those consulates are going to reopen, but the green card ban will still be in effect.

the other question is, there's been a certain amount of political and in the courts deference to the administration over the coronavirus because it is such an obvious crisis. and democrats and let gatolit - litigators have been loathe to file asylum at the border and that kind of thing. in an emergency it's understood that the executive has a little mother natu more leeway. the longer this continues the harder it would be for the administration to argue in a potential court case that it's still in an emergency footing when it comes to the economy, and that it needs to be able to take these steps when because they were targeting green cardholder and not guest worker programs, there is a better argument that congress deliberately did not want these people to have -- to be subjected to restrictions on entry based on what the u.s. labor market looked like. congress did write that into the -- wrote into the bill that for

temporary guest workers there has to be a certain sitterification that you couldn't -- certification that you couldn't find americans to take the jobs that doesn't exist for green cardholder. >> ali, i want to play sounds of the president talking about the temporary immigration ban. take a listen. >> some critics are saying that you are using the virus now in this crisis to follow through on that promise to reduce legal immigration -- >> no, no:i want people that are in this country, i want our citizens to get jobs. i don't want them to have competition. >> ali, this is messaging that you have heard before, that this is about the economy, that it is about jobs. what jobs even theoretically is the president trying to protect? >> well, this is the mystery of this proclamation is that like dara pointed out, it doesn't actually affect any of the work-based immigration programs in the u.s. currently. now in the proclamation, there's one i think very important clause, and in the clause, they state that in -- within 30 days,

department of state and department of homeland security and department of labor needs to send a report to the president outlining how nonimmigrant visas impact employment in the u.s. in essence work-based visas. the president has laid tracks to cut legal immigration by 33%. he has created a narrative that turns native-born americans against immigrants who are in the fields, in health care, who are caring for all of our health and security, and ultimately he could very well just like steven miller pointed out, move forward with even more cuts to work-based immigration which with the business leaders i talked to this week, that's what they're worried about. >> dara, just to switch to another story that i want to make sure i get your take on. under the c.a.r.e.s. act, everyone who files taxes has to have a valid social security number to get stimulus checks. so what we've been seeing is a lot of u.s. citizens who are

married to someone who is out of status, who are then not able to get their checks. can you just give us a window into why this is and how it came to be? >> sure. this was part of the last-minute negotiations as they were trying to get enough senate votes i believe for the c.a.r.e.s. act. there were some key republican votes that they could get by adding this to the package. it's a good illustration of what have been the legislative politics on there for some time, which is that democrats in general like to support immigration reform and immigrants' rights. but there are no democrats -- there were no democrats who were willing to take a stand against the bill for including this provision in the same way there were republicans who were unwilling to vote for a bill unless it required that all members of the family be u.s. citizens. >> all right. dara and ali, thank you both so much. prisons are becoming some of the country's worst pockets when it comes to the spread of covid-19. up next, i'll talk to a former

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the coronavirus outbreak supposes an extra threat to people incarcerated in america's massive prison system. according to the marshal project, which has been tracking the virus in jails and prisons, nearly 9,000 have contracted the virus resulting in 130 deaths. joining me, amman, the director of justice, and lived through legionnaires disease wheel in prison. you lived through a highly infectious disease while serving time in san quentin. what was your experience? >> my experience was horrible. when the legionnaires outbreak happened, they shut off all the water in the facility, meaning everyone inside the prison could not use the sink to wash their

hands, couldn't use the toilet to use the rest room, couldn't wash themselves. we were stuck inside without any running water and waiting for everyone else to get sick. a little later when they did release us to get water from the canisters downstairs, there wasn't any medical treatment or information provided for us to stop or prevent from receiving this type of disease. one thing i've experienced is not only are the physical conditions not set up for a virus to be prevented or even to be defeated. i think the worst thing is the information and treatment of incarcerated people afterward is very inhumane. >> we've heard a lot from doctors on the show who have served in jails and prisons, but i'm curious from your perspective as a formerly incarcerated person, what makes the environment, what makes people housed inside of these

facilities so vulnerable to the spread of a virus like this? >> you think about the solutions we're receiving from dr. fauci or the cdc guidelines. they're not tailored toward correctional settings. one of the things is we're told to stay six feet apart. i live in a building in san quenton with 9 hu00 people and shared a floor with 100 people. and the tiers are architecturally built three feet wide so it's physically impossible to practice six-foot distancing on three-foot-wide tier. there are nurses and correctional officers who have to pass out mail and so forth. that's one small example of inability to have physical distancing in a prison. >> the bureau of prisons have adopted a testing regimen, including those who may not

display symptoms. what more needs to be done to curtail the president of this virus? >> i think we have to look at mass incarceration. what i mean by mass incarceration is the volume of people inside of our prisons and jail facilities. there are way too many peoplin side our prison facilities. we need to reduce the prison populati population. we have to reduce it safely, and that means to offer protect of house and financial aid for those going back into the community. there are pop in prison that no longer need to be there, that have spent a lot of time in prison. there's this huge dichotomy about only letting out people who have committed nonviolent offenses versus people who have committed violent offenses. i will say for myself and i was 18 years old, i was sentenced to 25 years to life in a state facility. 16 years later the same judge that sentenced me to 25 to life resentenced me and released me that day, did not put me on

parole or probe's. it really does not come down to is violent or not violent. it comes down to our bureaucracy and court system. we have the ability to reduce the prison population. it's just that our politician are put before people and we're not thinking about people over politician. >> when you look at the move in some of these states to send folks home, has that made a difference in mitigating the spread? >> no. the amount of people that have been released in the prison and the numbers have been reduced next to nobody. 3,500 people have been released out of prison in california in the past three to four weeks. when you look at 120,000 people incarcerated that is not a huge number at all. one thing i want to mention is a lot of people in society feels like what happens inside of our prison facilities does not affect us out here. in just california alone, there are close to 120,000 people

incarcerated in our prison facilities and there are 67,000 staff that come in and out of these facilities essentially every eight hours because prisons never close, they don't shut down, over 124/7, christma, thanksgiving, new years. we're not going to flatten any curve if we do not pay attention to our prison and jail population. >> thank you so much for your time. that wraps it up for this hour. the reverend al sharpton is up next. he'll talk to kristen gillibrand about the coronavirus in her state. about the coronavirus in her state. so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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good evening and welcome to "politics nation." tonight's lead, they say yes, we say no. joined tonight by a group of national civil rights leaders and the heads of the largest historically black rmeligious denominations, i am calling on and encouraging communities to stay at home in states where stay-at-home orders are being lifted until there is evidence that it is s