good evening, i'm ali velshi, picking up msnbc's continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. the number of confirmed cases in the united states has surpassed 930,000 and more than 53,000 americans have died. despite those startling numbers, some states are moving ahead with plans to reopen their economies. in georgia businesses like gyms, bowling alleys, nail salons and barber shops reopened yesterday. on monday restaurants and movie theaters will follow suit. following president trump's irresponsible and dangerous comments this week about treating coronavirus with disinfectants, they're evaluating whether to reduce his participation in the news conferences in weeks to come. you may have noticed there was no press briefing today.

the president tweeting in the last hour that because all he gets are, quote, hostile questions, they're not, quote, worth the time and effort. it always comes as trump continues to claim that the u.s. has tested people that be other nations. and while it's true that the united states has tested about 5 million people, some estimates say that we need to do that amount of testing per day or more in order to get the country back to something resembling normal. here's what bill gates told me about that issue when we spoke yesterday. >> we have 330 million people n and our testing capacity is under 200,000 a day right now. so, you know, you can't test a meaningful percentage of the population, even in say a week. you can't even do 1%. we're about a third below that. so it's kind of insane that we're not prioritizing the

testing capacity, even as it grows. >> joining me now, the director of columbia university's center for disaster preparedness and nn m msnbc analyst. and author of "it shouldn't be that hard." you're in manhattan and it's the hour where everybody hears. -- cheers. that's one of the good things i remember about coronavirus. one of the bad things i remember are some of the things that go on in that white house briefing room. let's pribring our viewers up t speed with what the president said yesterday. the first one was about disinfectant. the president said "i see the disinfectant where it knocks it

out in a minute, one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, almost a cleaning? because it gets inside the lungs so it would be interesting to check that." they have had a remarkable number of upticks, mostly from people who are calling to see it's true whether they should consume or ingest disinfectants. that's a wildly irresponsible things the president said. >> it's the most irresponsible thing i heard any public official say ever. it's nonsense he's try to express in some way that -- i don't know how it makes him feel but i think he feels hige's influencing people's judgment. a lot of people are questioning

this but if you look at right-wing radio, plenty of people are taking had is adviis seriously. it makes me wonder who this president is and what he represents to his followers. it's almost cult-like how people are paying attention to him, no matter what kind of preposterous statements he makes. that's very concerning, ali. >> secretary shulkin, one of the things we're talking about is a vaccine. there's testing, there's treatment and there's vaccine. we don't have enough testing, we don't yet have a treatment. we have some things that we're looking at and real possibilities, including convalescent plasma. then there's vaccine. one of the conversations i was having with bill gates who knows a lot about vaccines, he says this under 18 months, under a year talk is happy talk but it not actually typical for a

vaccine. because of the amount of testing and the number of people you need in a vaccine test, they usually take longer. we might to think about the fact that this one might be two years or more before we have a combination of either vaccine or therapy to the extent that most people can be covered by it. >> yeah. ali, i think it really is unknown. the soonest that we've seen a vaccine be developed is actually four years. talking about doing this in 18 months would be an incredible, you know, something really unusual for us to see. but there is reason to be encouraged. we are thinking about new technologies and vaccine development, particularly with mrna that could potentially lead to a much faster access to a vaccine. so with so many people pursuing this, i think we have to be optimistic. but realistically it may take a longer time than that. so we have to prepare for a world without a vaccine where

coronavirus is going to be present in the community. >> irwin, who it affects really does different. it mimics the idea that in poor, highly concentrated areas you're seeing it. in singapore, they saw resurgence in some of the migrant communities where people live in tight quarters. here in the united states you have the navajo nation and other native communities where there isn't water to wash your hands at home. >> we have a real problem with distar disparities in access to health care in general. it happens on a global nature as well as here in the u.s. it's extremely concerning what's happening in the navajo nation and we're about to see surges in many, many under servserved communities. even in new york city, the epicenter, there are serious disparities in who is getting

the disease and who's dying with lots more disproportionate numbers of african-americans and hispanics dying in new york city than nonminority populations. so we have a big problem with socioeconomic disparities that is being uncovered even more aggressively by this pandemic and we're going to have a lot of work to do and hopefully uncovering these disparities at this level will really get us to make some moves to eliminate some of these disparities. but the other thing to worry about, ali, is that these new places where the outbreak is going to surge at some point, including areas in the u.s., but let's say all over africa and many developing countries, these will serve as the seed points for the second and third waves. we won't be able to control those outbreaks anywhere near as well as we can -- whatever you want to say about how poorly we're doing here, it's going to be far worse in some of these other countries, which will be the places from which we'll

maybe start to see the second and third waves over this next year or two. >> secretary shulkin, i want to ask you about -- i'll discuss this in my next block -- your book is called "it shouldn't be this hard to serve your nation." it could bei written about some of those officials, who are frankly starting to become part of the problem, despite the fact they are health professionals. but like so many examples in this administration, we in the public have been pleased there have been those who seem like the adults in the room. it starts to wreck their own reputations. >> i think everyone has seen how important it is we can rely on government, people who are

competent and willing to serve this country. this is a very hard thing to do particularly in this administration. we have seen countless individuals who have come in, tried to do the right thing and then removed from their job because they disagreed publicly or because behind the scenes people didn't like the direction that they were taking them, whether it was our ambassador to yugoslavia, whether it was richard spencer in the navy. the lists go on and on and on. so what i always tell people is is that we need good people to serve in government, but when you serve in government, you have to be willing to put your job on the line every day, you have to be willing to stand up for your principles and you can't bend from what you believe because you're doing a public service. and i certainly know what it was like to take on a position where people in the administration didn't agree with me politicallys apolitcally a

-- politically and that put my job at risk. it's very important for dr. fauchi and others to continue to tell us the truth and people's lives are on the line if they don't. >> irwin, how do you think about this? we have crossed a line with these briefings. there's an expression we use in canada, i don't think i can use it here without getting fired but it's called b.s. we've actually got the president going up there and speaking dangerous nonsense that people will pick up on and could die as a result. we've seen article after article about the fact that his own aides' minds are blown by the stuff he's doing. >> secretary shulkin is extre extremely mindful and correct. this is a very tricky line to walk here.

when trump announced at the briefing the other day this crazy talk, we were all transfixed by the expression on dr. birx's face, and i was feeling as a physician myself, oh, my god, i can totally imagine what's going on in her mind, i actually feel sorry for her. i don't know how people walk the line like that. what's really disturbing is the next day she in essence apologized or was trying to explain away what the president was saying by saying he likes to think out loud or something like that. i'm thinking what the hell are you doing in office here now? are you serving the public? are you just a sycophant for the president? whatever it is, you have some soul searching to do, dr. birx. i feel that very strongly. i'm just hoping that people like tony fauci do not leave because we need them there. on the other hand, it comes to a point where you cross a threshold and you're just now serve as a lap dog for the

president of the united states as opposed to serving your mission and what you've promised to do. >> thanks to both of you. dr thank you, gentlemen. have a good evening. coming up, this viral shot shows a visibly uncomfortable deborah birx when the president floated the comments about light treatment. treatment. what does it mean to be a good neighbor? it means being there for each other. that's why state farm is announcing the good neighbor relief program we know our customers are driving less, which means fewer accidents. so state farm is returning $2 billion dollars to auto policyholders for the period ending may 31st. and we'll continue making real time decisions to best serve you - our customers. because now, more than ever,

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i would like you to speak to the medical doctors to see if there's any way that you can apply light and heat to cure. if you could. maybe you can, maybe you can't. i'm not a doctor. but i'm like a person that has a

good you know what. deborah, have you ever heard of that, the heat and the light relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus? >> not as a treat. i mean certainly fever is a good thing when you have a fever, it helps your body respond, but i've not seen heat or light. >> i think that's a great thing to look at. >> that was dr. deborah birx attempting to muster a response to the president's comments about using uv light and heat to treat coronavirus inside the body during a press briefing on thus. it's important to understand it didn't end there. here's what dr. birx had to say yesterday after that on fox news about the president's potentially life threatening comments about using disinfect ants disinfectants inside the body to treat the virus. >> will he gets new information, he likes to talk that out out

loud and have a dialogue. that's the dialogue he was having. i think he just saw that information immediately before the press conference and he was still digesting that information. >> joining me, retired general honore. the thing about the two of you is that you speak truth to power. you're the people i go to when we need to cut through it all and get right down to the point. general, you heard what dr. birx just said, but i want to play you what dr. birx said on one america news network in march talking about donald trump's handling of the coronavirus. let's listen. >> he's been so attentive to the scientific literature and the detasd details and data. i think the ability of his being able to analyze data given his

history has been a real benefit. >> what do you do when the ones you need to trust in those briefings do things like that? >> that's most unfortunate. i think dr. birx, who is a retired army colonel, who has a great reputation when she's in the army and throughout her career needs to retake stock. if she's going to be an advisor to the people or is she going to be a spokesman for the president? and she can't do both at this point in time, otherwise she will constantly be compromised. you can see from her nonverbals, as you're watching right now, says volumes. but then she comes right back and throws the president a bone so he can walk off the stage like an amateur musician starting to believe his own magic she needs to step back and stay with the science and not be

a part of the communication team for the president. >> lori, again, there's no part of this that makes me comfortable because dr. fauci, dr. birx, dr. redfield, these are all people -- they're the ones we depend on. we no longer think the president is telling us the truth. mike pence has been saying things that are misleading. we're hoping that these people are the adults in the room who are going to guide us through this. how do you process it? >> i think we have to just ignore what the president says because it's only going to result in people taking inappropriate actions like swallowing bleach. i think the important thing now is to recognize that we actually have a lot of very complex issues ahead of us that require really detailed scientific analysis, really careful thinking. for example, the world health organization just today issued a

state saying we don't think there's any evidence yet that if people recover from covid and test positive for having antibodies against the virus that they're actually protected against a subsequent infection. they're not saying there's no protection. they're saying there's no evidence there is any. this goes right to the core of policies like how do you reopen the country? if you can't digest complex information that defies easy analysis by nobel prize winners, then you obviously aren't going to be able to, you know, deal with things like this craziness of swallowing clorox. i think the problem now is that tony tauchfauci, deborah birx, redfield and a host of others further back on the bench are all over a barrel dealing with a man making decisions about what should be the nature of american

policy in response to this terrible and still quite mysterious virus. they have to not only maintain their personal integrity but the integrity of the nation in response. and i think it's just -- i mean, it's -- i can't even imagine what it must be like trying to go to bed at night for all of these people. it's so difficult. >> general, you remember the day that captain brett crozier was relieved of his command of the "u.s.s. theodore roosevelt." as he walked off that ship, the sailors cheered his name over and over again. let's play it. that was the cheer he got as he walked down the plank, relinquishing command of his ship. we talked at the time that that was nobility and that was leadership. his sailors knew what to do. this navy has recommended he be

reinstated. the a second said he needs time to think about that. what, sir, as a military man is there to think about at this point? this is a man who chose his people over his mission. >> well, it should be a simple decision for the secretary of defense. he has at least three four-star admirals in the chain of command of that captain who said he should be reinstated, if the information that has come out in the press is true. those three and four-star admirals run the pacific navy. two of them focus in the pacific, as well the chief naval operation of all four star admirals. this is an easy decision for the secretary of defense. he trusts these admirals to run the nuclear navy with all of the aircraft carriers, submarines, holding down our biggest battle space in the world once led by

admiral anymonimitz. this is the legacy of our great navy. it should be an easy decision. secretary espy need to support or maybe he need to step off, but he need to support those admirals. >> there are about six states now getting ready to open, including georgia, which has started the reopening we're not going to get -- we're 1.5% of our testing, as i spoke to bill gates about. we're not getting to even 3%, let alone beyond that. what is the thing you think we need to think about as we start to reopen? >> well, i want to harken to what the general was just saying. if you don't trust the expertise of your deep bench, if you ever don't trust your legitimate leadership, then you're going to make poor decisions.

the cdc has all but disappeared. in a normal outbreak, in a normal situation like this, we would have the cdc in leadership and it would be up to the cdc and the top u.s. public health service to be telling the states let's assist you in reaching conclusions about the safest way to do this. we're not going to have 30 million tests available. it's not going to happen between now and august. there's no possibility that we'll have 30 million bona fide tests for this virus available in that amount of time. so we're going to have to come up with strategic ways of doing testing. it's like looking at strategic ways of deploying troops. you have to trust that the people in leadership who really know this, that are real experts, that they will give you proper guidance. if you're refusing to listen to them, then the whole people, the whole nation, the whole world suffers because of that. and this is the situation we're

in right now, ali. we have to have an understanding we're not going to have a vaccine in time to make a difference, not for at least a year, year and a half, maybe more. and we're not going to have 30 to 40 million test kits that really work, are genuinely tested and available through the fda before august. we need strategic planning, know who are your experts and how do you draw upon them? instead we have governors running around saying let's open up the beauty parlors and the gyms and the bowling alleys and another is saying everybody stay hunkered down, don't move. there's no overall guidance from anybody. >> yup. it's very hard to make sense of. thanks to both of you. coming up next, the department

of labor says an additional 4.4 million americans filed for unemployment claims last week and residents of some states are doing worse than others. you're watching msnbc. ching msn. so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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the impact of coronavirus on the economy has been nothing short of astounding. this year alone, including the period before the pandemic, 28.9 million people have filed for unemployment so far this year. so that's -- it's not even may yet. that is bigger than the full year totals for every year on record except for two, 1982 and 2009. at this point we're on pace to overtake both of those years. the president's senior economic adviser offered bleak predictions when i spoke with him earlier. >> we're looking at many multiples of job declines. so right now every ten days or so we're losing as many jobs as we lost during the great recession back in 2008. i think the unemployment rate right now when i scratch it

together, i'm looking at numbers north of 16% for the next job support. >> joining me now is economics correspondent for "the washington post," heather long. i have so much to talk to heather about. there's so much going on in economics. let's start with the thing that is more important than economics for most people, and that is the money they get from the government. some people are getting unemployment checks, which are processed through your state government, others are getting direct deposits or direct checks from the government, the $1,200 checks. if you're not getting the direct deposit, the government can only process 5 million checks for a week. for some people it may be a several month delay to get there checks. where are we on people getting direct aid from the government? >> that's right. there's a lot of concern as we approach may 1st. obviously a lot of people have rent payments due then, and i've heard some horror stories from families around the country who are worried they may get evicted

from their homes or may not be able to make that may 1st rent payment. in terms of getting the $1,200 stimulus checks from the treasury and internal revenue service, they have made efforts in the past few days to get more out. they said they've sent out 88 million of them so far, that's out of 150 million that are expected to get those checks. so a little more than half, but a lot of people are still waiting for those. the other one that i think has been a real failure across state and federal government has been getting these unemployment payments out. so people who have lost jobs, we've seen 26 million people file for unemployment claims. about half of them have received money so far. the worst state by far is florida. hundreds of thousands of people there are still waiting for some sort of aid a month after they've applied. >> one of the things i talked to

bernie sanders about was this -- there are other mod els that are being used, particularly in the airline industry and united states as a result of the first stimulus. it has more in common with what european countries are doing in terms of governments giving grants to companies to keep people on the payrolls rather than to take them off the payrolls, which is some of the ppp money is for. listen to what bernie sanders told me about it. >> the beauty of this program is its simplicity. what it says is that we will continue you on your getting your paycheck and your relationship to your employer in a way that other approaches do not. it is a simple, efficient way, more efficient way at least to make sure that working people in this country are able to maintain their standard of living during this crisis. >> and he's talking about a

proposal that he's putting forward that mimics how we did it with the airline employees and what some european countries are doing. it would be thought of as very unusual in america do that, but the things you're describing, difficulty in getting checks, m some coming from the federal government and some from the state governments and having to apply for medicare is bypassing the system that he suggests. >> it's not just bernie sanders. josh hawley of missouri has made the same row proposal where the government is paying 80% of worker salaries. the government is giving that money to keep those people on the payroll approximately . that's especially critical, you lose your income and your health care in the united states. the trump administration has

said they want to keep as many people, quote, attached to job as possible and that's why they crafted the plans the way they did. unfortunately what we're seeing here over a month, six weeks, since the president declared a national emergency is that millions of workers have been laid off. a lot of companies went to furloughs first, like the retailers, but have since done an actual layoff so totally severing the worker from the company they used to work for. when that happens, it can take years for those people to ever get a job back. >> heather, thanks for your great reporting on this. coming up, president trump is once again referring to himself as a wartime president. so how does he compare to those who came before him and how will he be remembered after this crisis is over? the historian mike beschloss

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horizon. the death toll of the coronavirus pandemic is on track to surpass that of the vietnam war next week. while president trump may call himself a wartime president, he's done little to comfort the country throughout this crisis and promote unproven methods to treat the virus. my next guest wrote "we should all remember from wartime presidential leadership we can learn as much from the mistakes as from the accomplishments." joining me, michakchaekchael be. bill gates saying this as influential on this era as world war ii was to its era. there are some people who really do believe the president and polls indicate he's leading as well. fundamentally he's not doing the

things you studied other presidents did in times of war, starting with being honest about how serious and how bad something is going to be, then leading to solutions and comfort. >> yeah, that's absolutely true, ali. when we talk about a wartime president, what we really mean is is this a president using all the force of the federal government, orchestrating everything possible, working 24 hours a day, drawing on wise experience, drawing on experts and with the heart to understand the cost of tens of thousands of people who will not survive who would have survived otherwise. health insurance what you wa that's what you want in a president in a time of war time. i agree with bill gates. and the question that people asked about presidents at those times were did the president do what he should have to avert the problem in advance and once the

problem occurred, is this someone with the wisdom and the empathy and the experience and the leadership skills to make americans feel that we are being protected and kept safe by our president, that will help us to sleep at night? i'm not sure that everyone is saying that. >> i want to quote from your op-ed in "the washington post," "warn people of impending bad news as soon as you know about it. in 1942, fdr told americans, quote, the news is going to get worse and worse before it gets better and better. the american people deserve to have it straight from the shoulder. kennedy caused his tv audience the cuban missile crisis could last for months. churchill told parliament about how bad it's going to get but that we would rather face the bad news than capitulate to it. in 2020 -- in the world in 2020, america is the place that is thought to have the will and the resources to fight the worst of

things upon us and yet we are not coming at it with that response. >> that's it. and we are used to our presidents doing this. with roosevelt. an example of someone who do not do that was lyndon johnson with vietnam. at the beginning of the war, he didn't think we could win but he told americans that we could. there was something called a credibility gap then. there's a huge credibility gap now because we don't feel that our president is leveling with us. credibility is an essential element of leadership. >> the polling, there's a lot of different polls that came out, but an ap poll asking about the trust in donald trump said 23% trust him a great deal or quite a bit, 21% trust him a moderate amount. that's 44%. 54% only a little or not at all. i don't know if this is influencing what seems to be the president coming out yesterday to the briefing, speaking, not taking questions and leaving. the fact we're getting lots of reporting that his aides are

telling him just stop the press conference because there's no actual way for him now to necessarily turn him around so try to do less harm. >> that's right. he's had an instrument that could have been very powerful for him had he used it right. when in history, ali, have we seen a president either in crisis or war or any time else going out for two hours every single day, even on sunday, being questioned by reporters and having that kind of access to american minds? had he established the credibility you and i were talking about, that could have allowed him to form a bond with people that would have allowed people to say this is a strong president of the kind that we've seen in wartime. instead there's been such hostility that apparently he's decided to shut this down. >> michael, thank you for your analysis of this. michael beschloss is an msnbc presidential historian.

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those who are there when we need them. and the millions of americans doing their part, just by staying home. our communities are beyond grateful. at citi, we are too. even if we're apart, we'll get through this together. that liberty mutual customizes your insurance, i just love hitting the open road and telling people so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ two brothers brewing company in warrenville, illinois is utilizing its distillery to make a product that has skyrocketed in value amid the coronavirus pandemic. following a request from the department of homeland security, the company transformed the spirits part of its business to produce hand sanitizer. it's pumping out between 2,000

and 3,000 gallons of hand sanitizer a week. it's kept the business open and most of its brewers association reports that 46% of craft breweries believe they're going to shutdown in the next 1 to 3 months due to measures aimed at curbing the spread of covid-19. joining me now the co-owner of two brothers brewery. thank you so much for joining me. i want to ask you a bit about how business is going. first of all about these loans, did you not qualify for one or did you not want one? >> well, we did get a loan actually for one of our businesses. part of what we have been struggling with is we've got a cup of different kind of divisions. we've got our brewery and d

distillery and some brew pubs, so it's been a challenge to navigate where all these different loans have been coming in. >> and the brew pubs are what you've had to shutdown, is that correct? >> that is. we have three locations. all of them have had to close just immediately when this happened because the state of illinois is one of the states that has a stay at home order, so that immediately was a layoff for all of those employees. >> do you agree with the stay at home order? >> well, that's a tricky question, september it? certainly i think it's important. it's causing a lot of challenges we've never experienced. but the alternative seems to be a worst option in my opinion. it's causing a lot of people to try to figure out how to

survive, though. >> jim, i think you're typical of most small businesses in america in that these are cash flow issues, right? small businesses exist on cash flow. you get money coming in from your customer and most of that money goes out to pay your expenses, your rent, your operating costs and your staff. at the end of the year if smerz some leftover that's yours and yours and your brothers. when the cash stops coming in, you're in dire danger. >> well, yes. the restaurants in particular are very much just a cash business. you know, when the governor here in illinois put the stay at home order in place we immediately stopped 100% of our cash flow. that puts people in a tough situation. i know personally we haven't been able to pay any of our vepders since this happened. we haven't been able to pay our

utility bills, our rent and we are not alone in that. it's a very, very serious issue across the entire segment of restaurants. there's just -- they're slim margins to begin with, and without without the doors open there's nothing there. >> everybody loves the idea of owning a restaurant unless you've owned a restaurant and you realize it's difficult and slim margins. how is the sanitizer business, is that keeping you afloat and how long can it go on for? >> it's one of those things we're so fortunate to be in a position where we could help, and as you can see from the pictures we're doing if very manually. we don't have equipment to do that, but we do have the man power to do it and we've got some licensing that's helped us out, so that is what's keeping the lights on right now, and we

both realized my brother and i how fortunate we are to be in this position because so many don't have this kind of alternative. as far as how long this goes on, your guess is as good as mine i suppose. there's a lot of manufacturers ramping up increased production of all ppe including this, but i do think there's going to be quite a lot of people continuing to look for sanitizers and things like that. >> when i look at a lot of small businesses around me similar to yours particularly if they're restaurants and places like that that depend on suppliers, trucks coming in, they depend on having staff. your concern is as soon as that stay at home order is lifted you can't switch-on the lights and open up the restaurants again. >> absolutely. it's a lot easier to turn the

faucet off than back on. you hear a lot of stories about milk being dumped, eggs being destroyed, farmers tilling their fields because schools and restaurants are such a huge customer base, and with everything closed, unfortunately a lot of these agriculture workers and farmers are getting hurt. when we decide, okay, we're going to open next monday as a state there's just no way that the supply chain is going to be able to ramp up for everybody that quickly. and in addition i have a big concern over restaurants having been one of the first things closed. i think there's an impression that's maybe more dangerous than other locations that you may go

out. i think there's more fear about dining and with everybody being or so many people being furloughed or laid off there's not going to be a lot of people that are going to have the resources to run out and start dining out like they used to. so i think there's a whole bunch of different issues. >> yeah, the psychology of it, the economy of it and the science of it all have to come together to rebuild our businesses. the best of luck to you. it's good to see you and our thoughts are with you and your staff, and i hope everybody can get back to normal. the co-owner of two brothers brewery in illinois. coming up in our next hour president trump over exposed. the president's aides and allies increasingly worried his lengthy press briefings may backfire and the white house says they're wondering whether to reduce his participation in the weeks to come. you are watching msnbc. to come you are watching msnbc

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welcome back to msnbc's continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. i'm ali velshi. here's where things stand right now. there are more than 930,000 confirmed cases in the united states. nbc has learned he might be scaling them back. that comes after