they listen when the governor holds a press conference, and they certainly pay attention when the president of the united states is standing there giving a press conference about something as serious as this worldwide pandemic. i think when misinformation comes out, or you say something that pops in your head, itmessa. we had hundreds of calls come into our emergency hot line at the health department asking if it was right to ingest clorox or, you know, alcohol cleaning products. whether that was going to help them fight the virus. we had to put out the warning to make sure people were not doing something like that, which would kill people, actually, to do it. >> larry hogan on why the president's words matter. >> you know it wasn't sarcasm. >> it wasn't. >> the president's words matter. he was pushing a scam cure throughout the entire month of march. dr. fauci had to completely,

time and time again, correct him. >> and the fda finally did, as well. >> the fda last week had to say, "don't do this. causes heart damage." don't will be to what the president said. >> talking about the hydroxychloroquine. >> yes. earlier last week, it was a president's words saying, "listen, don't worry. this is probably not going to even come back in the fall." dr. fauci had to say, "this is going to come back in the fall." >> yeah. >> then the president, of course, lies about what he did or didn't say on thursday. he's talking about injection inside. >> yes. >> of disinfectants. of course, i can't even believe people that used to be respectable that are now trumpists, actually trying to defend the president and say, "well, he really wasn't saying that. and if you look at medical science," et cetera, et cetera. but he was trying to say that. he, once again, is riffing, when he should be following doctors.

even, jonathan lemire, he even lied and made matters worse. my mother used to say, of some people, you know, "they lie when telling the truth would be better for them." well, the president went on this twitter rampage over the weekend. one of the things he said was, "i never talked to dr. birx about this." of course, there's a video of him, just a couple days earlier, talking to dr. birx about it. this was a low point for, actually, his presidency. many people inside the white house were saying. he couldn't let it go. this weekend, he continued lying about it. we have a president who really is under siege right now. >> being presented with video evidence has never stopped this president before from making outlandish claims. you're right, joe. in this pandemic, in the white house response to the coronavirus, it does seem like

people around the president may have hit rock bottom the end of last week, with his ill-informed comments. he had not attended the pre-briefing meeting. he would hardly receive an update about the idea of disinfectants and bleach. he went out there in front of the -- on to the podium, in front of the world, and gave not only incorrect but potentially lethal recommendations about what to do with those products. what we saw over the weekend is, on friday, he had his typical briefing. he walked out without taking questions, which is something his advisers wanted for a while. they asked him not to do it every day. we talked about it on this show. he should only be out there when he has big news or good news to sell. the president was reluctant to give it up. he likes the spotlight and the ratings. he wanted to have the jousting with reporters. it took until this moment, up till h until his mind was changed. while he didn't have briefings this weekend, he continued on twitter, as you say.

screeds against reporters and media coverage, defending his comments. again lying about what he was actually trying to say. people in the white house, they were trying to mark today, monday, as a pivot point. they want to start talking more about the economy now and trying to reopen the country, rather than just on the health issues. even though, of course, this will be a week where the death toll will probably cross 60,000. there is a briefing on the schedule today. the president is expected to attend. we don't know, though, what he'll talk about or if he'll take questions this time. >> well, mika, the briefings have been nightmares for the medical people. also other workers erers insid administration who were trying to move the ball forward and come up with a plan that will help america move forward, beyond where we are right now. a place where our health care officials this weekend said we are far short on the testing we need before we can open up.

here we are, in the second half of april, and just very quickly, look what's happened this year. in january, you had the president of the united states saying on january 22nd that, "oh, no, the coronavirus is just one person from china. we've got it taken care of. completely under control. don't worry about it." >> yeah. >> in january, also, he was praising president xi for china's transparency, and said "the people of the united states of america, they thank you and love you." that month, joe biden was writing op-eds saying america wasn't prepared for the coronavirus because of donald trump. throughout the month of february, he said, "this is going to magically go away." that was in february. in march, other people in the media was saying this was just a hoax. he said it was a hoax being drummed up by the media. media and doctors were

overplaying it. four months into this crisis, and you really do think the president is going to be moving forward in a constructive way. the end of last week, what's he doing? first of all, he's saying -- >> off the rails. >> -- and dr. fauci had to correct him again, "oh, this is probably not going to come back in the fall." that's just not true if you look at history and you look at the nature of this virus. then he started talking about bleach and disinf fefectants an injecting them. yes, his words, injecting them. not washing them on their hands. he lied about that. >> under the skin or some other way. like what way? >> under the skin. he asked dr. birx, who politely let him know, no, that's going to kill. john heilemann, as larry hogan said, people calling in, they had to warn the people of maryland not to do this. this it was going to kill them. a bigger thing, on thursday, i think it was, the food and drug administration came out and said, "do not take the drugs

that the president has been scamming on for the past month." people on fox news have been promoting it for the past month. that dr. oz and all these other scam doctors have been promoting for the past month. the food and drug administration, to the trump administration, "if you do this, it may till ykill you. it may damage your heart." the next day, the trump administration had to put out another warning to the american people, "do not take disinfectants. you don't inject them. you don't swallow them. bad for your health. could kill you." on two days, donald trump's own administration had to actually tell the american people, "please don't listen to the president. it could be hazardous to your health." >> yeah. look, we were on the air on friday, joe, and you and i both, maybe me a little louder even than you, i said, "you know, the

president is endangering people's lives. he is not just using this podium for political purposes. he's not just using it for propaganda. he is putting people's lives at risk through the things he's saying." of course, i then get all kinds of pushback from people on the right, and certainly the trumpists, "you've got to be kidding. you have trump derangement syndrome. who would be stupid enough? what american would be stupid enough to consider taking disinfectant, eating a tide pod, sucking down silysol? the president was obviously sarcastic." number one, larry hogan wasn't the only one. it happened in new york city, too. all over the country, you had bumped in phone falls to hotlines and department of health lines, hundreds of people asking the question, whether or not it was okay to eat a tide pod or suck down some lysol because of what the president said. don't tell me there aren't people out there who don't

listen to the president and take the president seriously. en unfortunately, it's the case that many listen to the president and they think what he says is true. you had impure cal dempirical d people trying to eat bleach. the other thing that makes me crazy is the president gets on television and thinks this is the answer. his attempt to defang the problem is to say, "i was being sarcastic," right? the president of the united states thinks it is better to make the argument that, in the time of a global pandemic, when there are 50,000 plus americans who have been killed by this thing, that he is using the white house podium for sarcasm. that's what the president's excuse is. first of all, it is obviously a lie. put that aside. even if it were true, the president thinks that makes him sound good, that he is taking the podium, in front of millions of people on television, and being sarcasm at this moment. i mean, it's just the most

moronic thing i've ever heard. it gives you some sense of just how adrift these people are. those are the two choices before us. either i'm pedaling this dangero dangerous, life-threatening misinformation, or i'm being sarcasm. either one are totally beyond the pail. >> it's stupid. >> absolutely. >> everybody knows he is lying. his defense for lying is, "oh, i tried to make light of the fact that 50,000 people are dying." >> disgusting. >> this is the time for a joke? mika, he still has defenders. people who actually want -- and i find this to be kind of funny, actually -- that people who once called themselves conservatives, who once claimed to be conservatives, who once claimed to follow the teachings of people like william f. buckley, or follow the leadership style of ronald reagan, these people are now defending donald trump at every turn.

what they do is, when he humiliates himself, they just turn and attack the press. of course, they've done it again, "oh, why are you all listening?" because people could die because of his bad information. by the way, people are dying because this federal government's response has been incompetent for four months. the most extreme example of this anti, anti-trump nonsense was when donald trump said he had total authority, when he was channelling mussolini. what did some people in the press go, "oh, let's look at the media and see how they respond n to this." looking at the media when the president of the united states was talking like mussolini, claiming he had total authority, total control, and they decided that was the time to see what people on cable news were saying, or to see what people on talk radio were saying, or see

what people online is saying. it is a dereliction of duty from people who, again, once claimed to be conservative. william f. buckley is rolling over in his grave. it is despicable. it is disgusting. these people that were once, quote, movement conservatives, are nothing more than a trump cult, pearsonality cult. that's why they can't even admit that this president is unfit if his office and that people are going to die in the future because of this. unless somebody figures out a way to get him to focus, be serious, and put seniors first. put people with pre-existing health conditions first. put this nation's health and safety and well-being first. >> a lot of the president's pawns, whether they're in the media or whatever, will say, "oh, joe and mika, so upset." i want to point out something you said on your instagram live

this weekend. you would love to see the president be competent in this crisis. unfortunately -- >> i want him to succeed at this. >> -- that's not what we're getting, and people are dying. if you see a lot of emotion coming from this show, it's because we are frightened for the american people at this point, given the fact that the white house has shown zero competence in this crisis. >> mika, it -- >> as it pertains -- >> -- hasn't gotten better. the people's lives who are on the line are seniors. doesn't matter whether they're democrats, republicans, whether they watch fox news or msnbc, whether they're not even involved in politics. >> yeah. >> this lack of response over the past four months, this lack of focus by the president of the united states and what he calls a, quote, war, this attempt constantly to try to blame others and not take power into the white house and use that power to have a universal testing response, so senior

citizens can be safe. >> history will remember that. >> so people can go back to the work space. so small businesses can open up safely. >> right. >> you can tell small businesses to open up safely, mika, but if people aren't comfortable going to those businesses, it does no good. that rests entirely with the president. >> so just to -- >> it's his failed testing response. he's got to get it right moving forward. >> to button up on the briefings, i want to get to kasie. what you've put together here in terms of the three big lies of the past few weeks, maybe months, and how it ended terribly for the president, having to walk out, cower out of the briefing room and take no questions, which you know drives him crazy, which was why he was rage tweeting. to explain the behavior moving back, what you had was a president who had no good news. no new material to work with. it got so bad by the end of the week, that he came up with this crack idea that he got from some person he talked to five minutes ago about the disinfectants being ingested into the body.

this is a guy who is so, so hell bent on trying to frame it around himself, that he will literally do and say anything, then try to take it back saying he was sarcasm and he wasn't talking to dr. birx. it is clear on the video tape, he says her name, deborah, pointing to her, and she responds back to him. want to look at that, in case you read the president's tweet when he said he didn't mean it and he was being sarcasm and wasn't talking to dr. deborah birx. take a look. >> i would like you to speak to the medical doctors, to see if there is anywhere you can apply light and heat to cure, you know? if you could. maybe you can, maybe you can't. again, i say, maybe you can, maybe you can't. i'm not a doctor. i'm like a person that has a good you know what. >> sir, you're the president. >> deborah, have you ever heard of that, the heat and the light relative to certain viruses,

yes, but relative to this virus? >> not as a treatment. i mean, certainly fever. >> yeah. >> it is a good thing when you have a fever. it helps your body respond. not as -- i've not seen heat or light. >> i think it is a great thing to look at. >> deborah. >> absolutely horrifying for deborah. >> deborah. here was a tweet from last night. the president said, was just informed the fake news from thursday had me speaking and asking questions of dr. deborah birx. wrong. i was speaking to our laboratory expert, not deborah, about sunlight. >> deborah. >> there's a tweet on, what was this, friday? friday. i was just informed the fake news. see, this is the whole projection or confession thing. says that he was speaking and asking questions of dr. deborah birx. let's play that clip again, alex. here's the amazing thing. there are still people who are

following the personality cult that like that. yeah, oh, yeah, people all over the country that support donald trump said, "yeah, he wasn't talking to dr. birx." let's play the video tape. see what you think. >> i would like you to speak to the medical doctors, to see if there is anywhere you can apply light and heat to cure. you know? if you could. maybe you can, maybe you can't. again, i say, maybe you can, maybe you can't. i'm not a doctor. i'm like a person that has a good you know what. >> sir, you're the president. >> deborah, have you ever heard of that? the heat and the light relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus? >> not as a treatment. i mean, certainly fever is a good thing when you have a fever. it helps your body respond. but not as -- i've not seen heat or light. >> i think it is a great thing to look at. >> she is so patient, and she is doing her best.

this woman has the most incredible career, incredible life story. now, she is dedicating every minute, every second of her day to helping save americans from this virus a. and find an incompetent president through it. he does that to her. does he know he is damaging her? he is putting her in a terrible position with a quack idea, and forcing her to talk about heat and light. she has to grasp for an answer and explain to him that maybe a fever, but no. no, you're an idiot. you're a moron is what she's thinking, okay? >> last -- >> you can see it on her face. i'm sorry, mr. president, you put her in that position. this really reputable, credible, prepared woman, who spent her entire life getting ready for a crisis like this. you're a joke. >> people -- >> you try to make a joke of the entire situation. >> people have been begging,

mika. people have been begging the president to get focused on testing for three months now. i think three months. two months, three months. yet, they've had to push away scam ideas about bleach, scam ideas about inserting lights into people, scam ideas about a malaria drug that the fda says will kill people, a scam idea about the pandemic not coming back in the fall. that's just not true. of course, that was in march. scam ideas about the heat coming in april and magically, magically having this virus go away. this magical april that we're in, actually, more americans are going to die this month than, you know, by the end of the month than died in vietnam, the total tally. then you go back to february. he's talking about it magically going away. in january, he's saying, "it's nothing to worry about. it's only one person, 10 people,

11 people." they've been dealing with him pushing these scam ideas in his year of magical thinking for four months now. up ste instead of working to do what every medical and scientistic leader said, which is, "develop expansive testing." >> his white house to cover as he hasn't done it. >> per capita. expansive testing so people can get back to work. >> kasie hunt, republicans who might be concerned about their constituents, what is the defense of this white house at this point? what is their defense of trump? is there any way that there could be a possibility seen that he is being competent in this crisis, and they have something they're proud of that this president is doing, as it pertains to corona? >> reporter: mika, the republican that you've heard speaking out the most on this issue has been larry hogan, the republican governor of maryland. we showed a little bit about what he had to say about this,

which is the health lines in his state were overwhelmed over the weekend with calls from people, wanting to know if they should follow the president's advice. i think that really says all you need to know. frankly, i haven't heard a lot from republicans in congress on this question. i mean, they're not here. they are not, you know, being forced to answer questions from the media day in and day out about what they're doing on this crisis. they can talk about what congress may be taking action on. the reality is that they're usually pointing to health experts who are saying something completely contradictory to what the president is saying day in and day out. the "washington post" actually looked and counted all of the minutes and hours of these briefings. 13 total hours the president has been at that briefing podium. he spent twice as much time promoting hydroxychloroquine from the podium as he did

talking about the people who have died from this virus. talking about the victims, expressing sympathy for them. they counted just 4:30 the president spent on these 50 plus thousand americans who died. this week, we may have more americans killed by coronavirus than were killed during the vietnam war. 4:30 he spent talking about the americans, compared to nine minutes for hydroxychloroquine. 45 minutes praising him. 2 plus hours attacking other people. that seems to really kind of tell the story of how this president has been handling this crisis. those americans who maybe are listening to him, and he is the president of the united states, people are scared and are looking for somebody to believe for an authority figure, to help tell them what to do and help get them through this crisis. if they are going to follow this president's advice and what he is saying, there are going to be ramifications. they are going to figure out for themselves that what he is saying is not the things that the doctors are telling us to

do. that seems to be a recipe for disaster for all of us. >> back in january, joe biden wrote in an op-e d that donald trump wasn't prepared for this coming pandemic and things were going to get worse. he said, "let your doctors talk. let your scientists talk. follow their lead." donald trump, 13 months. dr. birx, 6 hours. anthony fauci, 2 hours. the president has spoke b six ti times as much as dr. fauci. twice as much as dr. birx. it's been one scam idea after another scam idea, that then people promoted on other networks. scam doctors coming out and promoting these scam solutions. claiming everybody that had taken this malaria drug had bee

hospitals and it was a conspiracy. but as i've been saying from the very beginning, john heilemann, this is just the sort of thing that catching up to donald trump. i said in the beginning, you can lie about independent counsels. people won't listen. you can lie about former fbi directors. >> doesn't impact their lives. >> still going to work. >> they're busy. >> the kids are doing fine. they've got enough money to, you know, pay their rent or to pay their mortgage. you can even lie about the ukraine call. they don't really call. but all of these lies, all of these scams that he's been pushing, all of the scams that his cult leaders on talk radio and on certain cable news outlets, all of that that they've been saying have been revealed as lies. not by other people in cable

news but by their doctors, by nurses they know, by health care professionals they know. if you've got a doctor that has been treating your family for 20, 25 years, you're going to believe that person more than a scam artist that's pushing propaganda for donald trump on talk radio. the "new york times" has a story this morning talking about -- actually, just looking at the polls and the problems that republicans are in. they're in big trouble in as in the senate. they're in big trouble in colorado in the senate. they're in big trouble in maine in the senate. north carolina is going to be very competitive. donald trump, his people are starting to get very worried, for good reason. >> right. i mean, there was a story over the ek woo eweekend, joe, about which reflects exactly what i've been hearing from people in the political world for the last 96

hours. you know, i know people will say, "it took them this long to figure it out," but for a lot of republicans, last week, and especially the end of last week, was a moment, i think, a turning point moment in a lot of republican minds. several things happened. one was that the fundraising numbers came in that showed that republicans in these competitive senate races are being dramatically outraised by their democratic opponents. there's a vast fundraising disparity on the democratic side. 2018 disparity seems to be carrying forward to 2020 on the congressional side, particularly in the senate races. that's number one. number two, they're looking at the battleground state polling of trump versus biden. whether it is fox news polling or other polling, uniformly, wisconsin, michigan, north carolina, arizona, trump trailing in all of the states and trending in biden's direction. they understand how much the fates of republican senators are

tied to how the president is doing at the top of the ticket. then they see this thing on friday, which there had been a lot of things that trump had done. you had a lot of republicans quietly saying that these hours and hours at the podium was doing trump more harm than it was good. then the thing from thursday and friday, the bleach, the disinfectant, that is the kind of thing that cuts through in popular culture in a way almost nothing else does. when you have a moment that becomes the fodder for universal late night comedy, the kind of thing that everybody, even the most apolitical americans understand it, that's a devastating moment. that's why, i think, you saw trump, very quickly on friday say, "maybe i'm not going to " -- axios reported it first, and everybody watmatched it, "me trump didn't going to be out there every day, and if he is, not for so long." even trump, i think, finally started to hear from enough republicans, "dude, you are killing us.

you are killing yourself political politically. not only are you killing yourself, you're potentially killing us. we could louis the sse the sena white house. we could lose it all if you don't shut up." that's what we saw unfold over the course of thursday, friday, and saturday. the it is a big moment politically. republicans are going, "wow, we have some big problems here." >> so i agree with that. but trump can't -- jonathan lemire, really quickly, looking at the week ahead, knowing donald trump, knowing him very well, this is not something he can sustain. he cannot sit on the sidelines and watch the headlines take over. i predict he will be out again. they might be able to hold him -- >> you're saying he can't help himself? >> he cannot help himself. >> hmm. >> also, isn't there some reporting out there that he is tired of being in the white house and it shakind of -- >> stop. >> -- frustrated with the

atuatioat situation? >> republicans are nervous. that includes holding on to the senate and the president's re-election campaign, too. the polls have trended against him the last week or two. i talked about it on the show last week, some in the trump camp are worried michigan might be slipping away. other states are going to be harder to retain. they are trying to revaluable thi re-evaluate things. we reported, and others, as well, how frustrated he is couped up in the white house. he misses the rallies. through the briefings, he's gotten his talking points out there, but it is a disaster for him. people around him are asking to cut those out. white house is hoping to get him out there in other ways. maybe ramp up travel. no rallies, but some events. they expect him to do more interviews, whether with fox news or oann, to get out there so he has the outlet. we saw over the weekend he is

still using twitter, of course. there is also this. this is a president without much discipline. he is expected to go out there today in front of the preefinbr. we don't know if he is taking questions. he suggested over the weekend he won't. whether today or later in the week, can he resist the bait and interplay with reporters? seems unlikely. if he does that, you'll have nervous republicans, that he is going to get himself and his party into more trouble. still ahead on "morning joe," the governor of new jersey, phil murphy, joins our conversation. plus, dr. anthony fauci's absence from recent white house briefings is drawing notice. nbc's carol lee joins us with that new reporting. talk about your awkward conversations. by this sunday, the trump and biden campaigns need to start discussing a plan for the transfer of power, should biden win in november. it's actually required by law. carol lee has new reporting on that, as well. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. 7

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. now, there's been a lot of misinformation out there about the virus. yes, the president has taken some liberties with our guidelines. so tonight, i would like to explain what the president was trying to say. >> the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. one minute. is there a way we can do something like that? by injection. supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light. >> i know i shouldn't be touching my face, but -- now, there is a rumor that the president is going to fire me. let's see what he said about that. >> today i walk in and hear i'm going to fire him. i'm not going to fire him. he's a wonderful guy. >> yeah, i'm getting fired. >> brad pitt portraying dr.

anthony fauci on "saturday night live." in an interview earlier this month, fauci jokingly requested pitt portrayed him on "snl." he deserves it. joining us from the white house, nbc news correspondent carol lee. she has new reporting on dr. anthony fauci's diminished presence at recent white house task force preefinbriefings, am other things you're working on, carol. first of all, why not so much fauci? >> reporter: well, that's the big question. there's been roughly 50 briefings over the past couple of months, and dr. fauci has missed some here and there. last week, he was at one out of seven briefings. it has gained some notice. it comes after, you know, weeks of on and off administration officials saying the president is frustrated with the way he disagrees with the president publicly. we saw that last week when the president said there might not be any coronavirus in the fall,

and anthony fauci said, "actually, there's definitely going to be coronavirus in the fall." he gave an interview to "time" magazine where he said he wasn't confident we were where we were going to need to be on testing. the president disagreed with him. you know, an administration official tells us that, "look, you have to give your advice privately." clearly, there is frustration there. the public face of the white house is, "no, i'm not going to fire anthony fauci." technically, the president couldn't fire dr. fauci. he can direct the institutes of health to fire him, but it has to be for cause. his absence has been noticed. >> interesting. you're also covering this required by law transfer planning conversation that needs to happen between the biden camp, joe biden, and the trump administration, president trump. how is that going? >> reporter: well, that's what

we're hoping to see. there's this first real legal test facing the white house on sunday, where it is a legal deadline. they're mandated by law to begin to stand up some committees to coordinate with the biden team on a transition. we spoke with some administration officials for agencies that are responsible for transition, such as the office of management and budget. said they'll comply with the law. the general services administration also says they'll comply with the law. when we ask the white house if the west wing officials who are supposed to stand up a committee to coordinate with the biden team plan on doing that, they had no comment. that has raised some suspicions along democrats who say that, you know, it is a real question about whether or not this president will do what all past presidents have done, which has largely been a non-partisan exercise of preparing potential

successor for being able to take over the administration. one interesting fact about this is that we haven't seen a transition from an incoumbent t someone who defeated him since 1993. that raises the stakes for this. on top of that, you have a pandemic crisis, potential economic crisis, and a president who has really shown he's not necessarily going to play by the rules. that's raising questions about whether this is going to proceed in the way it has proceeded in the past administrations that we've seen recently. >> nbc's carol lee, thank you so much. keep us posted on all of that. >> reporter: thanks, guys. coming up, more on the new reporting from the "new york times." nervous republicans see trump sinking and taking the senate with him. plus, british prime minister boris johnson is going back to work today after recovering from the coronavirus. he has a message of caution for britain, saying it is too soon to ease lockdown measures.

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on the "new york times" reporting that republican governors are growing more concerned about president trump's handling of the coronavirus outbreak and how it could shape the results of the november election. those challenges are growing che clearer, with 26 million americans filing for

unemployment, plus growing concerns that trump's daily coronavirus briefings are inflecting grave damage on the president's political standing. polls show that gop senators in arizona, colorado, north carolina, and maine are either trailing or locked in a dead heat with their democratic rivals, due, in part, to trump's job performance. the party was also surprised by the results of a 17-state survey, commissioned by the republican national committee, which found that trump is struggling in the electoral college battleground, and is likely to lose without signs of an economic rebound this fall. that's according to a party strategist who is familiar with the poll and spoke with the "new york times." internal polling from the president's own campaign has also shown a drop in support, according to four people familiar with the data. as the coronavirus remains the top issue worrying voters.

these private surveys mirror recent public polls that show the presumptive democratic nominee, joe biden, leading in almost every competitive state. trump trails biden in the battleground state of pennsylvania and michigan and narrowly in florida. some in the party compared the current atmosphere to anger directed at president george w. bush in 2006, when unease over the iraq war led to democrats reclaiming congress, and two years later, winning presidency. >> it is interesting, john heilemann. you look at the polls. one florida poll has joe biden up by, i think, double digits. that one we showed had it within the margin of error. wisconsin still within the margin of error in some polls. still, it's going to be very rough for donald trump because of all of the things that are on tape, all of the things that are

going to be played over this summer and well into the fall. going to cause problems. let's talk about the senate for a second. even before, i know the "times" was focusing on those states, but even before donald trump's disaster showing on this pandemic and the disastrous response, arizona's republican senator, colorado's republican senator, maine's republican senator were already in trouble. new hampshire's republican senator that's up this fall was already in the low 30s in a lot of polls. it's gone from bad to worse. i don't usually say this in may -- in april, don't usually say it in may either, but right now, things are looking extraordinarily bleak for at least the republican senators in arizona, colorado, and maine. >> yeah. and, you know, you also look at tilson in north carolina where the race tightened up.

joe, like i said earlier, the other problem here is not just the polling going this direction, and i want to stress this. it is not like this is a variance. the private polls are not different from the public polls, which show the same thing. particularly, you notice that in a lot of the states, if you look at donald trump's approval rating, set against the approval rating of the governor in these states, michigan, as a good example, but a lot of the states, trump is 20 points -- polling with an approval rating in these battle ground states in the high 30s, low 40s, when you have governors in the mid 60s. the numbers are consistent. the crucial thing here is this fundraising thing, right? the president has an appreciable fundraising lead over joe biden. he's probably going to have that lead all the way to the end. joe biden has not been a strong fundraiser. the president has had a head start. they are a fundraising juggernaut. biden will get money from super pacs, and it'll help to level the playing field. what is freaking republicans out right now is that the democrats in this first quarter of

fundraising at the senate level just crushed republicans, crushed republicans on the fundraising front. tom tillis is getting outraised by an order of magnitude in north carolina. he's not that strong an incumbent. you tick off the states you mentioned, and you say, "okay, republicans might win in alabama." that means the senate flips. in a world where the senate flips, democrats and donald trump loses the white house is an ugly, ugly world for the republican party. all of a sudden, you do from a lot of power to absolutely none. >> kasie, these are the sort of things that, when they happen, it is a tidal wave. as dave wasserman was saying this weekend, if pennsylvania and michigan and florida flip, it's all over anyway. whether you're looking at 1974, 1980, 1994, 2006, 2008, i mean,

whatever you look at, these waves usually sweep all in one direction. right now, the momentum is going away from the republicans because they continue to embrace donald trump. they are not speaking out in a way that even some of their dpov knorr governors are. that is political suicide. >> reporter: we've seen the wave effect be bigger and bigger as this polarization trend increases. the likelihood it'll be a wave election, looking at the past couple ones, seems incredibly high. if the trump campaign is having to shore up florida when we get to election night in november, that's going to mean that fundraising advantage that john heilemann is talking about is going to be significantly less impactful. they'll have to spend so much money to shore that up. this is, like, the deal that republicans made. in some ways, it was a deal with the devil. they couldn't win without the president, they didn't think, so

they embraced him at literally every turn. all of these senate candidates in these swing states -- there are a couple exceptions -- but look at a place like arizona. martha mcsally has really embraced the president, his tactics, the way she's raising money. she's gone after reporters and raised money on her attacks on reporters and things like that. that means when you get to a point like this, where there is a massive crisis, and donald trump is handling it this way, it is not so easy to suddenly turn around and say, "actually, i didn't mean all those things i previously said about how i support this enjguy."pletely bo. with these massive packages they're trying to pass to fix the crisis, you know, mitch mcconnell has been almost visibly angry, at times, on the floor, frustrated with the fact that nancy pelosi has so much power.

frustrated with the administration, it seems, pie vat privately, behind the scenes. they're going against what he wants to do in some of the things. that's a frustration and the one thing that makes mitch mcconnell angry, which is the specter of not being in power. that's a reflection of the fact that he knows the reality he's facing here. >> kasie, i know we have a delay here. i apologize for jumping in. kasie, mitch mcconnell is not just concerned about not being majority leader. mitch mcconnell may not win re-election. everybody loves to say, "oh, mitch mcconnell always figures out a way to win." he was carrying an 18% approval rating for some time in his own state. he is being out-fundraised now in kentucky, which is a state that a democratic governor won two years ago. mitch mcconnell, maybe he did win in the past, all of these close elections, like harry reid. always figured a way to squeak it out. mitch mcconnell is carrying water for a president who was telling people to inject

disinfectants into their body. mitch mcconnell is carrying water for a president who said that this pandemic, which is going to have killed far more people than died in the vietnam war, american troops fighting. i mean, mitch mcconnell is going to be taking that in the fall, defending that president who said, "it was just one person from china," and it was magically going to go away. he is going to be seen as the guy doing more to defend this president than anybody else. that's going to be tough to defend even in kentucky. >> reporter: that's why democrats from across the country are sending money to amy mcgrathcgrath, the woman that out-raised mitch mcconnell. you know, this would be the great irony, in many ways. mitch mcconnell made the calculation -- and he's done this repeatedly throw his career. you're right, he hasn't always had an above water approval rating in kentucky, but he has

run these races that have ground down his opponents. he's raised more. he's been willing to go very negative in the way he's campaigned. he made a calculation, not just for himself but the whole party, that em praibracing this presid was the way to win. if it turns out that because of the pandemic, and all of a sudden more people are tuned into politics, are, frankly, frustrated, disgusted, you know, because they've experienced tragedies in their own lives that drew them back into a system that had otherwise turned them off. that's why mitch mcconnell potentially has his seat at risk. that is saying something. my phone is going to blow up with notes from mitch mcconnell aides, you know, laughing, essentially, at the suggestion he could lose his senate race. i certainly am going to be watching it on election night. >> again, when you have the wave elections. i think back to 1980, mitch mcconnell was around in 1980. his aides were probably too young to remember, a lot of them too young to remember 1980.

a lot of giants in the senate fell in 1980. when this is a big enough sweep, it happens. jonathan lemire, you're talking about this base strategy that donald trump has been pushing from the second he talked about american carnage. little did we know, this is what american carnage was going to look like on his inaugural day. i used to call it the steve bannon 33% strategy. donald trump moved that up to sort of a 42%/43% strategy. in 2018, when people are asking, "are the republicans going to take control and have another great night? looks like they are." i said, "he is a 40% president." he doesn't have magic powers. 40% president's parties don't win. i can say the same of a 43% president right now. the bigger problem is, so many of these senators are still following him.

marco rue o marco rubio in florida. remember when rubio tweeted members of the press were delighted and gleeful people were getting the coronavirus and dying? it's just -- it makes no sense. especially for somebody in a swing state like marco. >> republicans have latched themselves to this president, for better or for worse. think about to 2000. george w. bush wins the presidency after losing the popular vote. he had poor poll numbers. after september 11th, 2001, made efforts at a moment of national strategy, moment of crisis. he made efforts to reach across the aisle. he made an effort to broaden his base of support and heal the nation, try to bring the nation together. he saw his approval rating go up. won in 2004 more comfortably than when he was first elected. this president, again, lost the popular vote, middling poll numbers, doing the exact opposite. "associated press" this morning, you can find it on my twitter

account, there is a story about this. the president always played to the base. to this point, he managed to do that to win and stay afloat among the other scandals with russia and ukraine. this is different. he is facing voters in about six months. he has exclusively played to the base and made no efforts to have any outreach to democrats, or even to move the nation and beyond partisanship. instead -- >> why is that? he knows that he has to do better. he knows he needs -- by the way, he could do that by just following his doctors. >> he could. at this point in his political career, he only has this one move. he only plays to that base. he shows no ability. he believes the culture wars, fighting with the media, attacking democrats, going to the hard-core supporters, who kept him afloat to this point and will again. as of a couple months ago, his team was feeling good where they

were in the battleground states. they thought they had a sizable advantage in florida, liked where he was for the most part in the upper midwest. the pandemic changed everything. calculations need to also change. if he is focusing on the base, people around him, certainly republicans on capitol hill are worried he will lose this fall, and maybe bring the party down with him in the senate. >> by the way, mika, governor bashir won in 2019, john heilemann reminded me. it seemed like it was longer. everything sort of seems like it happened a lot longer. coming up, we'll look at where testing stands. as the u.s. now closes in on a million confirmed cases. several states begin reopening. plus, new reporting that the white house is considering scaling back the president's daily press briefings after those disinfectant remarks. and new analysis from the "new york times." >> what disinfectant remarks? oh, the injecting of the disinfectant. >> when he endangered the lives

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just to clarify that, sir, are you encouraging americans -- you're not encouraging americans to -- >> of course, no. that was, interior wise, said sarcastically. it was put in the form of a question to a group of extraordinarily hostile people. namely, the fake news media, okay? >> some said you needed to clarify after -- >> of course. you know the way it was asked. i was looking at you. >> no, you weren't, sir. >> you were looking at dr. birx. >> what's that? >> you were looking at dr. birx. >> i was looking at bill. i was looking at the doctor. i was looking at some of the reporters. i don't know if you were there. were you there? i don't think you were there. >> i was there.

>> not you. you were there. if you're there, i never forget. >> i wasn't there yesterday. >> you were not? >> no, sir. >> i didn't think you were there. [ laughter ]. >> grandpa. oh, my god, wait, oh, hold on. it was sarcasm. no, it wasn't. you were there. no, i wasn't. another reporter, he goes, you weren't there. she goes, yes, i was. then he said, i didn't talk to deborah, but he did. this is -- we're tottering into grandpa simpson territory here. >> yeah. >> that's why i love it. >> grandpa homer. >> i absolutely love it when the trump campaign actually questioned joe biden's mental prowess. it just opens up the floodgates of thousands and thousands of examples of donald trump stumbling around. of course, nothing to laugh about this morning, mika, when

you have a president who spent last week having to be corrected by his own administration. saying, "don't take the drugs that the president and his scam artists in the media were pushing on you for a month and a half. they could kill you and also cause severe heart damage." the next day, they said to say, "please don't use disinfectants. not healthy." so what an extraordinarily sad spectacle, that you have the president of the united states continuing, four months in, to push these -- or three months in, to push these quack notions that actually could kill americans. instead of focusing on testing, instead of focusing on reopening the government in a safe way, instead of focusing on how we beat this thing when it reemerges in the fall. the president is constantly saying things that his own staff, that his own

administration, that his own doctors have to correct. i remember being in law school and my con law professor reading a case and saying, in effect, this case finished off the tenth amendment, for all practical purposes, of course. that's the amendment i hung up outside my office in congress. that's the amendment that liz cheney cited after donald trump talked about his total authority. i've got to say, if the last two weeks haven't completely made null and void the 25th amendment, if a president behaving this way while a pandemic sweeps across our country and kills more people, actually, than died in the vietnam war, and the president just said a couple months earlier that it was just one person coming from china. it'd be swept away. 1 11 or 15 people. let me just say, the 25th amendment is de facto abolished.

i'm not -- of course, we have an election coming up. i'm not saying that this is what democrats should push for. >> no. >> it'd only distract. i'm just saying, like my con law professor said about the tenth amend. the massive growth of government, in effect, made void, for all practical purposes, the tenth amendment. you can add the 25th amendment to that right now. this president is behaving in a way that is so dangerous, extraordinarily irrational, in the middle of a pandemic that is changing history, that is destroying our economy day by day, that's killing people, especially seniors, day by day. >> yes. >> if it were ever going to be used, it'd be used now. it is not going to be used, so why don't we just stop pretending that we have a 25th amendment? we really, for all practical purposes, we don't. >> good point. absolutely don't. >> we have what we have. >> what more would you need? >> we have a president who is

incapable of governing this country. we have a president who is allowing senior citizens to die in florida, in pennsylvania, in michigan, in wisconsin, and arizona. >> to push his quack ideas, dangerous ideas. >> all over the country. instead of getting testing, he is pushing quack ideas about injecting bleach, or injecting inde disinfectants, the possibility of that. planting lights inside people. saying, "this isn't coming back in the fall." saying you should take drugs for malaria which are scam treatments. the federal government is having to correct it. even if he followed the oath that doctors take, first, do no harm, we'd be in a much better place. if we spent as much time talking about testing, focusing on testing, as he did saying, "hey, i'm not a doctor, but, hey, try this scam drug. it is good for malaria. maybe it'll work here.

a gut instinct." he kept talking about it day after day after adday after day. the federal government said this last week, "don't do that. it'll kill you. it'll damage your heart. don't listen to the president." same thing with disinfectants, "don't listen to the president." do no harm, mr. president. follow jeoe biden's advice, oka? back when you were saying it was only one person coming in from china, joe biden was writing in the "usa today" that we were dangerously ill-prepared for the next pandemic. mr. president, he said you needed to follow the advice of your doctors and your scientists, ask i couldn't nend let them speak. every day is a new day. every day is a new start. i still believe in that.

we don't even need deathbed conversions. we'll take late life conversions. >> it's not going to happen. >> let's pray it happens because we only have one president. listen to what joe biden said back in january. in january, mr. president. we're in april. please follow vice president biden's advice, okay? listen to your doctors. listen to your scientists. let them talk at these briefings. you'll be surprised what it does for america's health. hold up, wait. wait for it, mr. president. you'll be surprised what it does for your approval ratings. >> yeah. >> let your doctors and scientists talk. they'll take care of things. >> there's also the fact that he just avoids talking about the almost 55,000 americans who have lost their lives. the lack of empathy, the inability to take a look at who these people are and honor them,

and honor their families, and to talk about the people on the front lines. we have hospitals in hot spots in major cities that are still war zones. people are suffering. they're passing the virus from one person to another. they're in the middle of it. this guy is just off the hook. >> yeah. but -- >> kasie hunt is still with us. >> yeah. >> nbc news capitol hill correspondent. host of "kasie, d.c." on msnbc. joining the conversation is donny deutsch. "new york times" reporter. and political reporter for the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst, robert kos saskosta. he is the moderator on pbs. >> donald is who donald is. you're not going to get past the narcissism. you're not going to get past all of the character traits that

have inhibited him during this crisis, have stopped him from being an effective leader in this crisis, have stopped him from recognizing the danger and coming and saving lives in this crisis. but he could. he could do what joe biden begged him to do back in january. follow the advice of his doctors and scientists, and let them speak instead of having him going out rambling about bleach, rambling about disinfectants, rambling about implanting uv lights, rambling about scam drug, off-brand drug usage. rambling about how the pandemic is not coming back in the fall. if he'd just do no harm, if he'd just let his doctors talk, then he might find that some of the senior support that eroded away from him might come back. guess what? it would be the right thing to do. it would be good for america's health. why can be t't he do that, donn?

>> because he's not a leader. john friedman had a great column in the "times" last week where he talked about leadership. there are three pillars to it. one is empathy. two is honesty. three is humility. obviously, trump is a stunning o for three there. he is in a corner now. we all kind of agree that, basically at this point, he needs to step back. unfortunately, his last greater hit was his lowest hit, injecting disinfectant. he can't sit there and let that stay and hover. as kasie brought up in the last hour, i'll make it more specific, the "washington post" article, the last two and a half weeks, one ut out of three comms when talking from the stage is either a complete attack, or one out of four is an absolute lie. he is the antithesis of leadership. his latest thing is he's come out and said that the economy reopens, which is basically what he is praying for and hoping for, and it is going to respond like a rocket, because of the

pent-up demand. no, mr. president. if you understand consumers, as consumer behavior, the mindset -- i want everybody at home to think about this. the next month, are you pieing expensive things? are you going to go shopping? or is the mindset this, we're in a generational moment. for the coming, foreseeable future, the way americans behave, the way americans spend is going to be dramatically different than it has been our entire lifetime. he is kind of waiting for that hail mary. the combination of lack of leadership and the hail mary not coming, he is in a very, very bleak position. >> totally. >> unfortunately, it is wishful thinking for the economy. it is wishful thinking starting in january, saying this was nothing. in february, saying it was magically going to go away. it's wishful thinking. leaders prepare people for the worst. then they start working like hell, so hopefully they can have the best outcome possible. that's not happening. all you have to do is look at

these afternoon prebriefings an see what's happening in the afternoon briefings. unfortunately, jeremy peters was forced to read over 2,000 words from these briefings. i hope you're doing okay. >> i didn't read them all by myself. >> what an experience for you. yeah, exactly. you did a deep dive. tell us what you learned. >> you hit on this pretty well, joe. it is what's in these briefings that is most striking. also what is not there. the empathy, the honesty. what we discovered when we looked through all 260,000 words that he's spoken from early march to mid-april is really a stunning display of presidential h self-pity, unlike anything historians told us they've ever seen from a president. that really speaks to donald trump's leadership style and the type of person he is.

not just as a president, but as a human being. he's just not capable of seeing beyond himself in any moment. but at a moment like this, when americans are being asked to underta tatake great sacrifice. when they're not just personally but financially, you know, their families, home lives are under such stress. donald trump is spending most of his time as the president congratulating himself, insisting the effort that he is leading is top notch, the envy of the world, the best. he's been engaged in this effort to really rewrite the history of the coronavirus and his administration's response to it, in a way that not only takes liberties with the facts, distorts the facts, but lays all credit on himself for a turnaround, frankly, that most americans are not seeing. >> well, and i'll tell you one

of the starkest examples of that came fairly early in the crisis, on march 6th, when the president went to the c dd adc and lied t americans and said, "any american who wants a test can get a test." that lie will stay with him, just like republicans used barack obama's lying, "anybody that wants to keep their doctor can keep their doctor," or whatever his line was. republicans you that time and time again in 2010 to -- politically against president obama. here, you have a pandemic. again, over 60,000 people, likely, will die. the president said back in march, early march, "anybody who wants a test can get a test." every day, we've had one lie after another lie after another lie from this administration about testing. mika? >> well, the problem is that, you know, what jeremy was talking about, and to your

point, joe, that people are very invested in what is happening here. they are, at best, in a home where their kids are not going to school. they're out of school. their school has been canceled for the year. can you think of any time in your lifetime that that has happened, where you don't know when schools will reopen again? at best, they're all stuck in their house, and they're trying to figure out new ways of doing things. wiping off nare dproetheir groc. they're worried about their parents or younger kids. they're getting through the day with a hampered, different lifestyle, something they never expected, something they don't want. there's not one person who say, "this is great. i love it like this. we hope we stay like this forever." at worst, there are people who have been furloughed. there are people who lost their jobs. there are people who are not sure when they're really doing the math here, if their jobs will ever come back. when this, at some point, gets

to the point of a vaccine or whatever, this is a long haul. the reality of this is in everybody's faces, minds, and hearts every day. they look to the president. they look for leadership in a moment like this. they look to hear what is going to happen. they get nothing from this president, except jokes, sarcasm, denials, lies. they can see, every day, for themselves that things are not working for them. this is hurting the american people. the president, every day, makes it worse for them. >> you look at the facts, again, that americans are looking at. senior citizens in states like florida and washington and wisconsin and michigan are looking at. in arizona, states that the president needs to be persuasive in to win the election in november. they're looking at this every day. >> they're looking at him. >> they're seeing -- >> more than ever. >> -- he's unfit for office. they're looking at what he said

about testing and realize it's a lie. on march 6th, donald trump said, any american that wants a test can get a test. that's march 6th. this is what dr. birx said over the weekend. take a look. >> we have to realize that we have to have a breakthrough innovation in testing. we have to be able to detect antigen, rather than constantly try to detect the live virus or the rieviral particles itself, move to antigen testing. i know corporations and diagnostics are working on that now. we have to have a breakthrough. this rna testing will carry us certainly through the spring and summer, but we need to have a huge technology breakthrough. >> anybody, right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. they're there. they have the tests. the tests are beautiful. anybody that needs a test gets a test. i like this stuff. you know, my uncle is a great

person. he taught at mit for, i think, a record number of years. he was a great super genius, dr. john trump. i like this stuff. i really get it. people are surprised that i understand it. every one of these doctors said, "how do you know so much about this?" maybe i have a natural ability. maybe i should have done that instead of running for president. >> i think, perhaps -- >> no. >> -- that may be seen, along with the clorox speech, the disinfectant speech, as one of the defining moments of this pandemic. >> upsets me every time i see it. >> one of the defining moments of this presidency where, again, the president lied to the american people. said on march 6th, "if you want tests, you can get a test." he said, "they're beautiful tests," just like his call to the ukraine was a beautiful call. not meaning to expose that lie, as well, in his lie about testing. but, in effect, doing it. yet, bob costa, this remains one

of the most baffling things to me. there's so many things that hav donald trump. this administration's continued failure to take the lead on testing. despite the fact it has been something the cdc in the past has taken the lead on. you have the president lying on march the 6th, saying, "anybody who wants a test can get a test." yesterday, deborah birx, dr. birx, saying, "we need a breck sq bre breakthrough on testing." mike pence lies every week about how many tests we'll have. do you have any insight as to why this president has steadfastly refused to use the defense production act and all powers of the presidency to stand up testing on a national level, in a way that could allow us all to get back to work st safely? >> part of the challenge for

this administration is not just the cdc, it's the food and drug administration. in conversation after conversation with governors on both sides of the aisle, they are unclear exactly about what they should do in terms of a testing strategy. that's why in the latest round of legislation on capitol hill, house democrats pushed to make sure the trump administration had a mandate to implement a national testing strategy. so many of these governors feel under pressure to open their states. why should they open their states, they ask themselves and their top officials, if they don't know the tests they're using are approved by the fda and seen as effective? having a test only takes you so far, as dr. birx said. the question really is, do you not only have a test, but do you have an effective test, and a test that will allow businesses to feel comfortable about starting their businesses up and not having liability for lawsuits? >> right. you have to talk, of course --

we talk about testing in shorthand. it is testing. it is tracing. it is having the models. it is figuring out who can go back to work, who needs to still be isolated. that's the sort of thing we need to do. do you know, bob, do you have any insights into specifically why the president refused to take the lead on testing? he said, "this is a state's issue, not the federal government's issue." in fact, it was up to the cdc. they botched it so badly, the fda finally gave up and said in late february, i think february 29th, "all right. states, pharmaceutical companies, you go ahead and try to get the testing yourself." as one fda official said to the cdc, "if you were a private entity, i would have shut you down." why hasn't the president taken a more aggressive role on testing? why has he been afraid to do that? >> you've pinpointed one of the

key tensions that comes up in my reporting. inside the white house, there are some who want to wait until there is a national strategy on testing so they can really have the scope of the country under review. there are also many close to the president who believe that reopening the country should be a priority, and that the map should not be seen in a national way but county by county, state by state. in other words, if a county is not having a problem, or a state is not having a troublproblem, f they don't have many tests being done, they should be put on a path of reopening. there is a fear in republican circles that if you wait until effective tests are ready for every state in the country, you're not going to have a functioning economy. >> axios co-founders, jim vandehei and mike allen, are out with a new analysis of the impact of the coronavirus. they conclude the crisis is much worse than feared. going through some of their reasoning, when it comes to treatment and prevention, dr. anthony fauci says the vaccine

could be at least a year to 18 months away. that hasn't changed. experts tell the "new york times" that even that timeline is optimistic. as "national geographic" notes, the mumps vaccine, considered the fastest approved, took four years to go from collecting viral samples to licensing a drug. then there's the question of immunity. the world health organization just said over the weekend that there is no evidence that people who have recovered from the virus can't get it again. on the economic front, axios notes, the true u.s. unemployment rate is estimated at 20% to 45%. the great depression, at its peak, was 25%. the s&p says it could take years to recover the jobs lost during the pandemic. looking at two of the hardest hit industries, california's governor envisioned a reopening where restaurants would possibly have their capacity cut in half.

airlines consider cutting their capacity by a third to allow for more space. two industries whose margins already are razor thin. donny deutsch, this is the worst thing that could happen to a donald trump presidency. there's no way out for him. there's no lying out of it. he always considers there will be a reopening, celebrations in the streets. he wants a parade on july 4th. he wants everybody to clap for him and get out in massive numbers to show a full force of crowds. this is a virus with no vaccine. a vaccine that is possibly 18 months away, if we're lucky. people cannot ever gather and celebrate him, if they ever would think there is a reason to celebrate him. he can't get what he wants from this virus. he never will. the question is, how do we rebrand and figure out a way to reopen when people can't get close to each other? >> that's a great question.

as far as trump, he is in a position, he's in the worst position he can be. his entire life, he learned from his father and ray cohen, if it is a loss, it's a win. if it is 80% empty, it is 20% full. all he can try to do as a person is paint the picture, paint the win. there isn't one here. there is no move that way. he is out of moves in that way. one thing i don't understand is how the stock market is still where it is. this is a five-year deal. this is not something that -- even restaurants, the yoo your , if they're half full, they can't stay open. >> yeah. >> how we spend, how we engage with each other going to be changed for -- i don't want to say a lifetime -- but for a certain number of years. trump is a cornered animal now. joe you asked why opportunity he let the experts speak.

i remember i was on a number of years ago when steve bannon was on the cover of "time" magazine. we said, "he's gone." anthony fauci is beloved right now. brad pitt, the greatest movie star of our time, was pouring love out for him. i don't think we'll see him going forward. trump can't put the good people forward because it is counterintuitive, and he has no moves for himself. we are seeing the worst of the worst mansur f surfacing right and we are getting into a deep corner. >> i'm afraid it is. cutting through the noise, we know the president watches, there is a simple formula medically. there is a very simple formula politically. listen to your doctors. follow the advice of your doctors and your scientists. let them speak. let them be your voice to

america. let them talk. they reassure americans. americans trust them. they don't trust you anymore. you only do damage to yourself, donald, when you go out there. you can look at the numbers. i don't know if your staff members will show you those numbers. in florida, seniors don't trust you. in pennsylvania, seniors don't trust you. in michigan, seniors don't trust you. that lady governor, you kept calling the lady governor, people of michigan trust her much more than they trust you. >> she's done a great job. >> you've damaged your standing in michigan and pennsylvania and florida so much. it's simple. there is a simple way out of this, listen to your doctors. let your doctors speak. follow your doctors' advice. they've spent their entire lives preparing for this moment. you haven't. you don't know what to do right now, and that's okay.

you've got people who know what to do. follow the doctors' advice. as joe biden said in late january -- and i know it'll be hard for you to follow joe biden's advice, but ironically, it is in your best interest. listen to your doctors. let your doctors speak. joe biden was right in january. that will still help you in late april. jeremy peters, you've written about the 260,000, 280,000 words that have been spewed out at these press conferences, that actually have just made americans more confused, more frightened, more, actually, ignorant of what's going on out there, if they actually believe what the president had to say. some have died, actually, because some of the bad information that was sent their way. squ jeremy, what's next? is there any hope the president

will let his scientists and doctors speak? is there any chance that the president will stay quite thet e press conferences and let experts guide americans, senior citizens in florida, senior citizens across america, how to stay safe in this pandemic? >> so that's a really interesting question, and i think whenever we try to predict what donald trump is going to do, we get ourselves into trouble. although, i will say, one of the things that we noticed as my colleagues and i were pouring over these transcripts of the briefings, is donald trump will display moments of sobriety, moments when he has clearly been shook by the data that he's seen coming in on the death projections. doesn't tend to last very long, of course. he will, one minute, be very somber and serious, and then the next, he'll be attacking a

reporter. so i don't think there's really much we should expect in the way of consistency with him. what you're going to get from donald trump going forward is likely to be what we have seen from him law thrall three years presidency, which has been on full display in these briefings. this is our president. he is not going to change. nobody around him thinks he is going to change. the best course of action they think they have right now is to try to pull him back a bit from the briefings and convince him, what appears to have been the case, at least for now, that it is hurting him. it is hurting him paubecause americans don't want to see this self-pity from their leader. donny was talk about how trump has one move, and that's to say that things are great, even when they're not. his other move that we see him going back to, which is hardly reassuring for the american people, is the blame. blaming everybody else and then saying, well, you're not giving

me enough credit. he actually said this numerous times over the course of these briefings. why don't you guys report all the good things i'm doing? he thinks thi s it's good stord story. this is a bad story, and it is interesting to see how he's going to talk his way out of this. >> it is. mika, jeremy is right, there are times you think that maybe the president is a little more lucid. a doctor once said there were skaz spasms of lucidity earlier in the month, but they've come further and further apart. let the doctors speak. >> your title in the "washington post" is "the cost of trump's deadly state of denial." your article, your opinion piece, really lays out why this statement is true. as long as donald trump remains in the white house, the crisis

that stalks our land will only get worse. take a look. it's a frightening read. >> let's hope he proves me wrong. listen to the doctors. >> jeremy peters, robert costa, thank you both for your reporting. donny douche, thank you for y r donny deutsche, thank you for your reporting, as well. the risk of a double-dip depression. we know the hazards of opening too early. what are the economic dangers, as well? we'll read from the "financial times." plus -- >> i know it is tough. i want to get this economy moving as fast as i can, but i refuse to throw away all the effort and the sacrifice of the british people and to risk a second major outbreak and huge loss of life in the overwhelming of the nhs. i ask you to contain your impatience because i believe we are coming now to the end of the

first phase of this conflict. in spite of all the suffering, we have so nearly succeeded. >> that's uk prime minister boris johnson, really appearing to meet the moment. very accurately. earlier this morning, he begins his first day back on the job. >> good for him for talking about reaching the end of the first wave. again, tell people the truth. let them -- you know, give it to them straight. they can handle the truth. politicians who tell the truth actually get rewarded in the end. boris johnson will. >> we're going to go around the world with richard haas, next on "morning joe." ngerstick. with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you don't have to. with a painless, one-second scan you can check your glucose with a smart phone or reader so you can stay in the moment.

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♪ welcome back. joining us now, president of the council on foreign relations, and author of the forthcoming

book, "the world, a brief introduction," richard haass, and editor at the "financial times," ed luce, who has been taking a deep dive into what is going on with the world economy. >> richard, i want to start with you. first of all, thanks for doing an instagram live with me with weekend. >> you guys were great. >> they loved richard. he is the brad pitt of the foreign policy community. richard, i had somebody actually text me, wanting me to talk this week about africa, talk about the middle east, and talk about some of these areas we haven't discussed as much. how is this pandemic impacting africa, the middle east, south america? >> so far, joe, it hasn't been that great, but it's happening and it's coming. these are countries, by and large, that lack modern, equipped, capable public health systems. social distancing in many of

these countries is simple a non-starter. if you're talking about egypt, you have 100 million people. 1 million more people every eight months. you're talking about nigeria, several hundred million people. social distancing isn't an option. it is going to be bad. these are countries that come into this not simply with a public health problem, but they also come into it with a lack of resources. one of my real concerns is going to be how are these countries going to get the money to not pay for the health, then keep people alive, and get them back to work? normally, they would depend on the outside world to help them. we're going to be helping ourselves. i think we use the word "wave" in discussing the public health challenge here in the fall. think of this as an international wave. there is going to be a public health problem, then the massive economic problem around the world. >> ed luce, can you talk about the potential of a double-dip depression, what that looks

like, and is there any comparison in history? >> not really. i mean, if you look at the great depression, it took months and years to get to 25% unemployment. we're already probably at 20% unemployment in the united states. a 40% shrinking in the second quarter, annualized shrinking of growth according to jpmorgan. this is an instant shutdown. there is no precedent for this. i think the real concern is if we reopen prematurely, as it looks like many states are doing, then you trigger a rise of infections and a second lockdown. a second lockdown will be orders of magnitude worse in its impact on investment psychology, consumer psychology, than the first lockdown. because the sense that we really have no idea where we're going would be reinforced. if you look at the numbers in

march, the week of march the 16th is when most of the east coast and the west coast began the lockdown. america had fewer than 20,000 infections as a whole. nationally then. today, georgia has got 24,000. just georgia. florida has 30,000. texas has 25,000. they're looking at opening up. as i say, with more infections in each of those states individually than the whole of the united states had in the week when the lockdowns began. so this risks what i call a double di double-dip depression. because it's very likely, the desi scientists are correct, it'll lead to an acceleration in the rate of infection and the need for a new lockdown. >> kasie hunt is with us. richard haass, she has a question for you. >> richard, one of the things

that i can't help but think about as we all grapple with this are all of the problems, the ongoing challenges that we're dealing with that are now completely under the radar. we've barely talked about, for example, the major questions around the health of kim jong-un in north korea. i'm wondering, what do you know, what's your sense of what's going on with that? we've been doing a lot of reporting on it here at nbc news. it is hard to know. our intelligence communities are looking at it. there are so many of these, you know, crises that have been set aside as we grapple with this pandemic. that doesn't mean that something like the potential end of kim jong- jong-un's ktenure in north kore isn't something we should be paying a lot of attention to. >> you make an important point. there is no pause button. just because we may not have the bandwidth to take in what's going on around the world, it doesn't mean history stops.

we don't know necessarily the health of kim jong-un. what we do know is north korea continues to test missiles, continues to build up its nuclear weapons capacity. the u.s., south koreans, and u.s./chinese, u.s./japan relations are not in good shape. if we have to manage a crisis, we're not pre-positioned to do so. venezuela is suppressing people. russia is active in the ukraine. the middle east was and is the least stable part of the world, whether talking about yemen, syria. iran has reduced dramatically the amount of time it'll need if it wanted to have nuclear weapons. all this is going on at a time we're not paying attention. nothing is getting better out there. the inbox has actually grown at a time where we don't have the resources or the attention to focus on it because of the pandemic. that makes for a really bad combination.

>> ed luce, when we're looking at a double-dip depression, focus on this a little bit. i feel like the forecasts, especially coming from the white house, seem devoid of reality. because you have a couple of things happening, for example, in the u.s. economy. you have companies coming back, realizing they can do less -- they can do more with less. that's just a reality. i don't think companies are going to magically hire people back if they don't need them. if they found other ways of doing things. then you have smaller businesses, restaurants, nail salons, places across the country, that have been out for months with no customers coming in. then they're going to come back at half speed, with just the ability to serve half the customers? i don't see how this doesn't go anywhere but into a deep depression. >> yeah. i mean, you were mentioning earlier the likelihood of restaurants reopening with

social distancing rules. 50% of tables. airlines, 1/3 fewer seats. these are businesses that operate at single digit margins. so they're going to have to raise prices significantly to stay in business, which will put it way beyond the pocketbooks of most consumers before this pandemic. having been hit by this pandemic, consumers are going to be once bitten, twice shy already, which is why i say a second lockdown would be twice bitten, infinitely shy. you're going to have an immense chilling effect on expenditure. employers are going to have a huge incentive to accelerate a.i. and digitalization. to rely less on human beings. robots can't infect each other. so in terms of production, in terms of consumer interface, the incentive for capital-intensive investme investment, for those companies

that can afford to envest,inves opposed to labor expansion is going to be huge, which is going to be bad for employment, bad for wages, bad for consumer sentiment. it is going to involve a much heavier, at least in the short term, role of the federal government, to help people through this. this is no fault of their own. at the moment, they're only getting one $1,200 check. the government has to be much more sustained in helping them. >> all right. ed luce and richard haass, thank you both very much for your insight. coming up on "morning joe." >> i think it's talk, on a talk radio show. i wonder about the attorney general engaging in that kind of talk. the idea that the attorney general of the united states is going to get involved with a lawsuit in an individual state, that perhaps goes against the president's guidelines and goes against the tenth amendment to

the constitution, i don't see that happening. >> i mean, these are, again, people who call themselves republicans, who are trashing the tenth amendment. who are trashing the ability of states to govern the way that our founding fathers laid out in the federalist papers. it is extraordinary. i have to say something else, too. william barr, do you think you're going to see william barr outside in public any time soon, going to crowded restaurants, going into crowded hotel lobbies, going to crowded events? no, you will not see him there. just like bill bennett, you will not see him here. these are older people. may not be the healthiest people in the world, by just looking at them. may have some underlying challenges. certainly they fall into the high risk categories. you can talk about them. you can talk about rush limbaugh who certainly, my god, is going through such health challenges right now. yet, telling other people and saying, "we need to get back

out." the very people who are urging you, seniors, to get back out are not going to go out themselves. that's like i said. there's a guy that ran one of the biggest banks in the world over the past several months, that kept saying, "we have to keep the economy open." do you think he is going to go out into crowded restaurants? >> think he is flying commercial? >> no. they're not going to do it. so the question is, seniors, in florida, in arizona, in michigan, in wisconsin, in pennsylvania -- >> deserve better. >> -- where donald trump is going to be coming for your vote this fall, if they won't do it, if they won't let their families do it, then why are they trying to get you to do it? very disturbing. >> so that was -- >> especially from an attorney general. >> what joe was responding to w was chris wallace from fox news

cutting the attorney general down to size. we'll talk to a former attorney general next on "morning joe."

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. as the coronavirus continues to spread in overcrowded prisons, a new report from the american civil liberties union shows that reducing jail populations will lower the covid-19 death toll for all of us. joining us now, former acting u.s. solicitor general and now an msnbc legal contributor neil

catell, thank you for being with us. this, obviously, was a problem from the get-go i was reading about outbreaks from different prisons. it's a little, you know, it's got a lot of different consequences, letting prisoners out early. but what are the options in these contained populations, where you also have prison workers who would prefer not to get the coronavirus, themselves? >> yeah. there is only really one option, which is to release these folks. there is two groups of people who are in jail. the vast majority of them, over 70%, actually haven't had jude indicated of doing -- haven't beened a juddated of doing anything wrong. they stay an average of 25 days in the prison and come out. when you have prisons that are magnets, for coronavirus. there is one in ohio in marion over 2,000 cases.

other jails are becoming these spreaders. they're spreaders because of the crowding in jails, the fact that social distancing isn't possible. the fact that purell is contraband because it contains alcohol. all of these things going on in these jails, so there is really sadly one option, which is to release those who are not dangerous to the population. >> so, yeah, i was going to say, who is being let out. what are the sort of civil liberties issues being raised for the population that is kept inside the police than cannot be released that will undoubtedly get the coronavirus that this will be spread among it? because there is no way to separate completely an entire prison population. >> right. that's exactly right so we're talking about, you know, people, you know, a large number of them, 70% haven't been ad ju

adjudicated with a life sentence or leak that. unfortunately, that's what the coronavirus can do to these folks so you know, you've got people who are in jail who may literally be suffering the equivalent of death sentences because of the lack of the ability to social distance. then you got that other that 70% who are going to come out of jail after 25 days and start reinfecting the american population. we haven't talked about the workers at jails and the like and security guard and all those, who are infections and risks as well so from a public health perspective, i think everyone is saying this is an obvious and easy thing to do. i mean, it's not easy in the sense that there are tradeoffs and costs, because, after all, people who have been adjudicated should serve their sentence, here there is an overwhelming health need in the other direction. >> kasie has a question. >> reporter: neil, good morning, i want to ask you about the attorney general william barr

and the suggestion that he's made that the stay-at-home orders are infringing on people's civil liberties, this rebuke from chris wallace over the weekend, the fox news sunday host, what do you make of the attorney general of the united states making those suggestions and what is the actual legal framework at work here? >> yeah, i think these comments are unfortunate and illed alized. the legal framework, i read last week the 10th amendment to our constitution says that powers fought given expressly to the federal government are reserved to the states. and there is no power that is kind of more quintessentially state and local than the power over health. it's what constitutional scholars call the police power. so, in general, our constitution puts the states in the driver's seats when it comes to questions like quarantine, rehypoopening and the like.

the federal government certainly has authorities to impose quarantine, but there isn't any sort of federal law or anything that supports what the attorney general is doing, nor claiming that he wants to do here. it's, of course, not clear. we are hearing mixed messages, trump kareens from one position to the next. sometimes he says the states should reopen. other times he is saying they shouldn't, that it's wrong. so we don't know exactly where the administration is on this. at least barr's statements he will go in and try to file these lawsuits i think are going nowhere and nowhere fast. you know, it's not just this attorney general. the last attorney general, trump's last one, acting attorney general matt whitaker went on tv calming states that impose these stay-at-home orders martial law and saying the justice department won't tolerate this. this is really irresponsible. joe, what you were saying a moment ago, the republican party is the party who states rights.

what in the world are they doing? i was taught constitutional law by these folks. i was taught we live in a federal system where states ream paramount when it comes to things like the police power. >> so neil, if you and i had gone to law school together, of course, we wouldn't, because you are so much smarter than i am. traditionally, we would have a debate over how expansive the 10th amendment should be. you would probably given your views on the judiciary believe and federalism that it should be a bit more expansive or a bit less expansive. i would argue more, for a more expansive 10th amendment. but you have republicans now speaking the way, i don't know, i don't know if i say marxist

trampling on rights, this is coming from a tomorrow, it is really disorienting. >> the whole point of law is you make positions mind to the parties before them. this republican party has abandoned any sense of that, any sense of being governed by principles or laws or rules. it's just whatever suits them at that particular moment. they'll file lawsuits, call this martial law sometimes. sometimes they say the reverse. it makes no sense, there is no guiding principle behind it. >> neil, thank you so much. still ahead, as the jarring headline in new york magazine, are you rich enough to survive this pandemic? we are back in one minute. smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. get the perfectly grilled flavors of an outdoor grill indoors, and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do even more,

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. and then i see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute. i was taking a very sarcastic question to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? >> that was done in the form of a sarcastic question to the reporters. >> but you were asking your medical experts to look into it. >> no, no, no, to look into whether or not sun disinfectant on the hands. >> because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number and it would be interesting to check that. so you will have to use medical

doctors, but it sounds interesting to me. >> people listen to these press conferences. they listen when the governor holds a press conference. and they certainly pay attention when the president of the united states is standing there giving a press conference about something as serious as the world wide pandemic. and i think when misinformation comes out or you just say something that pops in your head, it does send a wrong message and we had hundreds of calls come into our emergency hot line at our health department asking if it was right to ingest clorox or you know alcohol cleaning products, whether that was going to help them fight the virus so we had to put out that warning to make sure people were not doing something like that, which would kill people actually to do it. >> sarcastic or not. republican governor larry hogan on what the president's words matter zpu know it wasn't sarcasm. you are right, the president's words matter. he was pushing a scam cure

throughout the entire month of march. dr. fauci had to completely time and time again correct him. >> and the fda finally did as well. >> the fda had to say, don't do this it causes heart damage. don't listen to what the president said. >> talking about the hydroxychloraquine in that case. >> talking about that. and then earlier last week, it was the president's words saying, hey, listen, don't worry. this is probably not eastern going to come back in the fall. he had to say this is going to come back in the fall. and then the president, of course, lies about what he did or didn't say on thursday and he's talking about injection inside. >> yes. >> of disinfectants and, of course, i just can't even believe people that used to be respectable that are now trumpists trying to defend the president. well, he wasn't really saying that. if you look at medical science, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but he was trying to say that he, once again is riffing when

he should be following doctors. he even, jonathan le mere, he even lied and made matters worse. you know, my mother used to say, some people, you know they lie when telling the truth would be better for him. the president went on this twitter rampage over the weekend. one of the things he said was i never talked to dr. birx about this. and then, of course, there is a video of him just a couple of days earlier talking to dr. birx about it. this was a low point for, actually, his presidency. many people inside the white house were saying. but he couldn't let it go. even this weekend, he continued lying about it. and we have a president who really is under siege right now. >> the video evidence has never stopped this president before from making outlandish claims. are you right, joe, in this

pandemic and the white house response to the coronavirus. it does seem like they may have hit rock bottom at the end of last week with his ill-informed comments, he had not aid tended the pre-briefing meeting. he would hurriedly receive an update about disinfectants and bleach. he went out there onto the podium in front of the world and gave not only incorrect but potentially lethal recommendations about what to do with those products. what we saw over the weekend on friday he had his typical briefing. he walked out without taking questions. which is something his advisers had wanted for a while. they've asked him to not do it every day. we talked about it on this show. he should only be out there. he likes the spotlight and he wants the jousting of reporters. it took until this moment until his mind was changed. over, while when he didn't appear in briefings this weekend, there were no briefings

this weekend, he continued on twitter as you said, screens against reporters, media coverage, defending his comments, lying about what he was actually trying to say. people in the white house, they were trying to mark today, monday as a pivot point. they want to start talking more about the xi now and trying to reopen the country, rather than on the health why, even though, of course, this will be a week when the death toll will probably cross 60,000. there is a briefing on the schedule today. the president is expected to attend. we don't know, though, what he will talk about or if he will take questions this time. >> well, the briefings have been fight mayors as far as the medical people. also other workers inside the administration who were trying to move the ball forward, who were trying to actually come one a plan that will help america move forward beyond where we are right now. a place where our healthcare officials this weekend said we are far short on this sort of testing we need to have before

we open up. here we are coming to the end of april, the second half of april, and just very quickly, you know, look at what's happened this year. i mean in january you had the president of the united states saying on january 22nd, oh, no, coronavirus is one person from china. we got it taken care of. completely under control, don't worry about it. >> yeah. >> in january, also, he was praising president xi for china's transparency and said the people of the united states of america, they thank you. they love you. by the way, that same month, joe biden was writing op-eds for the usa today saying america wasn't prepared for the coming pandemic because of donald trump. throughout the entire month of february he said this was just going to go away, mamgically go away in february -- magically go away in february. in march, other people in the media were saying it was a hoax, drummond up by the media.

the media and the doctors were overplaying it. here you go into april. here we are four months into this crisis -- >> yeah. >> -- you do think the president is moving forward in a constructive way. at the end of last week, what's he doing? >> oh, off the rails. >> dr. fauci had to correct him again, every doctor, this will probably not come back in the fall. that's just not true if you look at history and you look at the nature of this virus and then he started talking about bleach and disinfectants and injecting them, yes. his words, injecting them, not washing them off his hands. >> or some other way. what way? >> and he asked dr. birx, who politely let him know, no, that's going to -- john heilemann, you know, as larry hogan said, he had people calling in. they had to warn the people of maryland it was going to kill them. here's even a bigger thing. on thursday, i think it was, the

food and drug administration came out and said do not take the drugs that the president has been scamming on for the past month, that people on fox news have been promoting for the past month, that dr. oz and these scam doctors have been promoting the past month. the food and drug administration. the trump administration. if you do this, it may kill you. it may damage your heart. then the next day, the trump administration had to put out another warning to the american people. do not take disinfectants. you don't inject them. you don't swallow them. they're bad for your health. it could kill you. on two days, donald trump's own administration had actually had to tell the american people, please don't listen to the president. it can be hazardous to your health. >> you, look, we were on the air on friday, joe, you and i both,

i may be more elaborate than even you, i said the president is endangering people's lives, he's not just using this podium for political purposes and propaganda at this point. he is putting people's lives at risk through the things he is saying. okay, i then get all kind of pushback from people on the right and certainly trump piece does, who are like, you got to be kidding, you have trump derangement zroen syndrome. who would be stupid enough, what american would be stupid enough to actually consider taking disinfectant, eating a tide pod, sucking down some lysol. larry hogan wasn't the only one. it happened in new york city, too, all over the country, you had bumps in phone calls into hot lines and department of health lines that day, hundreds of people asking, calming in to ask the question, whether or not it was okay to eat a tide pod or suck down some lysol because of

what the president said so don't tell me there aren't people out there that listen to the president and take the president seriously. unfortunately, it's the case that many people listen to the president and think what he says is true and so you had phone calls, data out there to see whether it was okay to drink disinfectant or bleach or whatever to try to get rid of this virus. the second thing i will say that makes me crazy, is the president thinks this is the answer. his attempts to defame this problem saying i was sarcastic. the president of the united states thinks it's better to make the argument in the time of a global pandemic. >> thank you. >> when there are 50-plus americans killed by this thing, he is using the white house podium for sarcasm. that's what the president's excuse is. first of all, it's obviously a lie. put that aside, even if it were true, the president thinks that makes him sound good? he is taking the podium in front of millions of people on

television and being sarcastic at this moment. it's just the most moronic thing i've ever heard. it gives you some sense how adrift these people are, that those are the two choice before us. either battling this dangerous life-threatening misinformation or on being sarcastic. either one of them are totally beyond the pale. >> again, everybody knows she lying. everybody knows he is lying. but his defense for lying is oh i decided to try to make light -- >> how insulting. how disgusting. >> of the fact that 50,000 people are dieing. >> protest. >> kind of like he told his models. mika, the thing, though, he still has defenders. people i find this to be kind of funny, actually, that people who once called themselves conservatives, claimed to be conservatives to follow the teachings of people like william f. buckley or follow the leadership style of ronald

reagan, these people are now defending donald trump at every turn and what they do, when he humiliates himself, they turn and they attack the press. of course, they've done it again, oh, why are you -- why, because people could die. because of his bad information. by the way, people are dying because of this federal government's response. >> it's incompetent. >> it's been incompetent for four months. the most extreme anti--- anti-trump nonsense is when donald trump said he had total authority channeling mussolini and some people in the press, oh, let's look at the media. let's see how they respond to this looking at the media with the president of the united states was talking like mussolini. claiming he had total authority, total control. and they decided that was the time to see what people on cable news were saying or to see what

people on talk radio were saying or to see what people online were saying. it is such a dereliction of duty. >> yeah. >> who people once claimed to be conservative. william f. buckley is rolling over in his grave. it's despicable, it's disgusting. these people that were once quote movement conservatives. so many of them have morphed into being nothing more than a trump occult. personality occult. that's why they can't even admit that this president is unfit for his office and that people are going to die in the future because of this. unless somebody figures out a way to get him to focus, be serious and put seniors first. put people with pre-existing health conditions first. put this nation's health and safety and well being first? still ahead on "morning joe," the governor of new jersey, phil murphy, joins the discussion.

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tools to manage your business from any device, anywhere. and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us. now, there has been a lot of misinformation out there about the virus. and, yes, the president has taken some liberties with our guidelines. so tonight, i would like to explain what the president was trying to say. >> then i see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection? >> supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light? especially know i shouldn't be touching my face, but, now, there is a rumor that the

president is going to fire me. let's see what he said about that. >> today i walk in, i hear i'm going to fire him. i'm not firing him. i think he's a wonderful guy. >> so, yeah, i'm getting fired. >> brad pitt portraying dr. anthony fauci on "saturday night live". in an interview, fauci requested pitt portray him on "snl". he got that he deserves it. joining us now, nbc news correspondent carol lee. she has new reporting on dr. fauci's diminished presence at recent white house affect the force briefings. so, first of all, why not so much fauci? >> reporter: well, that's the big question. there has been roughly 50 briefings over the past couple of months. dr. fauci's missed some here and there. last week he was at one out of seven briefings, which really has gained some notice.

it comes after you know weeks of on and offered a minstration officials -- off administration officials saying the president is frustrated, when he said there might not be coronavirus in the fall. anthony fauci said there is definitely going to be coronavirus in the fall. he gave an interview to "time" magazine where he said he wasn't confident we are where we need to be on testing. the president then disagreed with him. so, you know, an administration official tells him look, you got to give your advice privately so clearly, there is frustration there. the white house is exactly what you just saw, no, i'm not going to fire dr. fauci. technically he can't fire him. he can direct the human services secretary to direct the national institutes of health to get rid of anthony fauci. it has to be for cause, his absence has certainly been noticed. >> interesting. we'll watch that dynamic play

out. you are also covering, transition planning conversation that needs to happen between the biden camp, joe biden and the trump administration, president trump. how is that going? >> reporter: well, that's what we're hoping to see. you know, there is this first real legal test facing the white house on sunday where the legal deadline, they are mandated by law to begin to stand up some sort of committee to coordinate with the biden team on a transition. we spoke with some administration officials for agencys that are responsible for transition such as the office of management and budget said that they'll comply with the law, the general services administration also says they'll comply with the law. but when we asked the white house if the west wing officials who are supposed to stand up a committee to coordinate with the biden team plan on doing that, they had no comment. and that has raised some suspicions among democrats who

say that you know it's a real question about whether this president will do what all past presidents have done which is largely a fawn partisan exercise of preparing potential successor for being able to take over the administration. one interesting fact about this is that we haven't seen a transition from an incumbent to someone who has defeated him since 1993. so that really raises the stakes for this and on top of that you have a pandemic crisis, an economic crisis and a president who has really shown that he's not necessarily going to play by the rules so that's raising a lot of questions about whether this is grand jury to proceed in the way it has proceeded and in past administrations that we have seen recently. >> all right, nbc news' carol lee. thank you so much. keep us posted on all of that. coming up, according to our next guest, quote, when we say we're in a war, we mean it. that's from governor phil murphy of new jersey.

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we have to realize that we have to have a break-through innovation in testing. we have to be able to detect antigen rather than constantly trying to detect the actual live virus or the viral particles, itself. and to really move into antigen testing and i know corporations and diagnostics are working on that now. we have to have a break through this rna testing will carry us certainly through the spring and

summer, but we need to have a huge technology break through. >> dr. debra birx, the white house coronavirus task force coordinator on the break through still needed when it comes to coronavirus testing. >> it's very interesting that again on march 6th donald trump said anybody who wants testing can get testing. >> yeah. >> all this time later. >> bold faced lie. >> she's still telling the truth, dr. birx, just like dr. fauci, talking about we need more testing. by the way, that's not the be all end all, that's just the start of the process. >> dr. anthony fauci said in an interview with politico on saturday that the u.s. should at least double coronavirus testing in the coming weeks before re-opening the economy. the "new york times" reports that some physical components of test kits like nasal swabs are largely imported and hard to come by. healthcare workers are still

liking the necessary protective gear to administer tests on a wide scale basis and labs have been slow to add people and equipment to process the growing number of tests. governors, public health officials and hospital executives tell the "time's" they are still operating in a kind of wild west economy that has left them scrambling and competing with one another to procure the equipment and other materials they need. and so states are left with that kind of uncertainly as they try and figure out how and when to re-open their commission. one group is offering a way forward. the national center for disaster preparedness at colombia university's earth institute. it's out this morning with a phased plan to safely re-open local american businesses while still protecting the health and safety of workers and customers. joining us now author of the report and director of colombia university's national center for disaster preparedness, dr. irwin

redlinger. >> doctor, thank you so much for with being with us. tell us what the plan looks like. catch us up. >> so here's the main point. i listed nine different businesses that can open. every single one is dependent upon us having the ability to test rapidly and to test broadly. so dr. fauci is 100% correct and so is dr. birx in this case and there is a plan for let's say you want to open your local barber shop or restaurant. we need to make sure that everybody that works there is actually negative for the coronavirus. if we don't do that, all of the plans to re-open businesses have a serious dangerous flaw. and we watched with some astonishment that is governor of georgia decided to basically go for it. i think that presents a real and present danger to the health of the public in georgia and i want

to caution governors that they really need to make sure that we, first of all, everybody understands we need to open up business. this is absolutely critical. but we have now a kind of a pitched battle between public health experts and the people that want to focus on reopening the economy. but there is a middle way. that is dependent upon testing number one, and also the ability to do contact tracing. somebody gets positive. we'll figure out who they have been in touch with and screen those people as well, joe. >> so, doctor, are you moving closer to a pointed where you have confidence in the results of the testing, where a couple weeks ago, the fda, itself, concerned by the inconsistency by some of the result, some of the tests in their words in effect jumped. do you think we're moving beyond that phase? >> reporter: well, first of all, i used to be optimistic about where we were going with testing. but we've had now more than two months of constant misrepresentations of the truth, messages that make no sense

whatsoever, but from the white house about what went wrong. we are now in the catch-up phase. it's really really difficult, joe, because many of the tests have been developed and have gotten emergency approval let's say. actually have lots of false negatives and false positives. i think we're far from the technological solution to the testing delema. which is amazing that the united states of america is having so much trouble with basic technology that is so critical to the public self. this is incomprehensible. you know, some day there is going to be some kind of hot wash or you know post more them -- postmortem on what we went through we are not ready for accurate testing done quickly. it's inexplicable. yeah. >> like you said, it's inexplicable. it's incomprehensible in a country as scientifically advanced and medically advanced as we are, this president and the white house stumbles over

the bakes of testing. hey, doctor, ap's jonathan le mere has a question. >> sure, hi, jonathan. >> hey, doctor, just in the last few days, michael bloomberg in sort of his first step back on the public stage after shis failed presidential campaign, it was announced by governor cuomo, bloomberg would be funding a contact tracing effort in the new york city area expanding slightly to the neighboring states. can you walk us through. >> yeah. >> the governor said it's an expensive and complicated procedure. can you describe what it is, why it's so important and is it so necessary. >> yeah. >> in areas like new york that have had such community spread? >> sure, jonathan. so, it's, first of all, it's basically inevitable we will get at least a second wave if not a third wave over the next 12 months. the reason is there are out there still carrying the virus west virginia we need to be able to do is this thing contact tracing.

is if you test positive, people need to know who you have been in contact with. that also might be possible. because that could be the beginning of another upsurge. the problem is, we have about 2,200 to 2500 contact tracers in the united states and some estimates, including a study from the rockefeller center say they will need between 200 and 300,000 people to do this contact tracing. so we're way behind. it's great that mike bloomberg is doing what he's doing. but we will need a lot of focus on that. so forget the testing, right. a big f. and we can figure out how to do effective contact tracing. maybe we don't need 200,000, maybe 100,000. we need a lot more to be trained. once we get testing and contact tracing, we'll be making progress. bloomberg got his finger on the pulse of what needs to happen, that's great. but the scale is enormous. this is the other thing we are getting from the white house, a

complete ignorant misunderstanding of what it is we'll need to get this under control, jonathan. >> dr. irwin redlinger, thank you very much for coming on this morning. it's great to hear from you. up next. >> thank you. >> we just heard an outline for re-opening. how dhauz apply to one of the country -- how does that apply to the country? joe biden has a brand-new endorsement, house speaker nancy pelosi is out with this new message. >> today i am proud to endorse joe biden for president of the united states. because he will be an extraordinary president. he knows how to get the job done. elections are about the future. now, more than ever, we need a forward-looking battle-tested leader who will fight for the people. a president with the values, experience and the strategic thinking to bring our nation together and build a better, fair world for our children.

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this morning, a handful of states, including georgia, montana, tennessee, mississippi and colorado have begun easing some of their covid-19 restrictions. but many others are keeping restrictions in place, including michigan, where governor gretchen whitmer has extended stay-at-home order until may 15th. and new jersey where governor phil murphy says they are several weeks away from phase 1 of re-opening and governor murphy joins us right now. governor, thank you so much for joining us. give us your rational if you could for waiting a few more weeks for re-opening and how is new jersey holding up? >> thanks for having me on. we're hanging n. we're still in the thick of the fight. so you know we're still at this point we're positive tests are going up. the curve has flattened. that's good news, but they're still going up. fatalities, sadly, we're almost

at 6,000 and then in the hospitalizations, intensive care units, those numbers are looking more encouraging. hospitalizations are coming down. intensive care units down slightly, ventilator use down slightly. so we think we're beginning to see some light here. but again, this is, we're still in the thick of the fight. we are going to announce later today and we're working extensively on what the principles should be that guide any steps we take towards responsibly reopening. we know we need a lot more testing. we know we need the contact tracing. we know we need an isolation plan that someone has deemed to have got it try to prevent more community spread. so we know what it looks like, but i can't marry myself yet, given the data that we are looking at to any time table. >> and what about supplies and the ability to treat the ill and also the ability to keep up with

the demand for medical professionals fighting the virus? where are you with that? >> still in the fight. without question. you know, we have the constraining factors are bed capacity, personal protective equipment, ventilators, the medicines to run the ventilators. healthcare workers. we have been since january war-gaming this. we have been able to stay just out ahead of all. our healthcare workers are heroic, but they're beaten to a pulp, as you can imagine, we put a call to arms out for volunteers. that has begun to work, thank god. our bed capacities are holding. but we're also cognizant of a reality here that a lot of the experts will remind us of. and that is, you know, this is a big fight, but it may not be the last fight. so even if we do everything right on re-opening our state or our country, this sort of virus has proven in the past that it could come back at you.

so the capacities we are building, whether we feed them this month or next month, or maybe six months from now, i'm not sure, but i'm happy we've got them. >> well, governor, if you look at the history of the 1918 pandemic, you see that cities that opened up too soon after the first wave actually were hit harder in the fall and here we are again with a pandemic that comes in the spring time and healthcare officials were warning about the fall being even worse during flu season. so, how are you war gaming that out? i know the president incorrectly said that it probably wasn't going to come back at all every health official says it will. so, how are you war gaming confronting this pandemic at a time when hospitals are also going to be overrun with those suffering from the seasonal flu? >> no, this is something, joe, that we think about and act on all the time. as a country, we were caught

flat footed going into this, so we know one thing, we can't let that happen again, so just last week, i visited a new field medical station in atlantic city built by the army core of engineers, they have been fabulous, by the way. i looked at a re-opened winged of east orange general hospital. another 250-something beds, similar in paramus, new jersey. we were legitimately able to buy 500 ventilators, not from the federal stockpile, but for ourselves, we are constantly gluming personal protective equipment around the world. we are building our healthcare workers. we want to make sure we are never caught flat footed again. so we have our own stockpiles, our own capacities, our sufficient ranked fully rank core of healthcare workers. and that's for us, those are the steps i know we could take. i hope the feds will take

similar steps. but those are steps we are taking explicitly for the question you asked, based on any history, the chances are overwhelming this thing is going to come back on us, we can't be caught flat footed again. >> we've got to learn how to live with this over the next year, year-and-a-half, be every that vaccine comes. if it even comes then. john othan le mere with the associated press is with us, governor, he has a question for you. jonathan. >> reporter: good morning, governor, good to see you. we were discussing on the show in the last hour about attorney general william barr, who said in a recent interview that some states stay-at-home orders, the restrictions on the economy and schools were going too far and resembled house arrest, in his opinion and he threatened potentially the justice department would the ep in. so my question is for you, have you heard anything from the justice department along those lines from what you have in place for your state and perhaps more importantly, if you do, what will your response be?

>> yeah, jonathan, i've heard nothing and if we do get something like that, and we still believe it's the best course of action to protect the 9 million folks in our state, we will meet them in court. there is no other choice. but an interesting, and with all due respect to the attorney general an interesting poll came out last week and it asked among other things, has new jersey gone too far or not far enough? and it's worth noting that the folks who thought we went too far were more than doubled by those who felt we had not gone far enough. so the overall majority agreed with what we were doing. but the even the minorities at either end was clearly tilted towards, if anything, go further. folks are smarter than we give them credit for. if you flip the light switch today in new jersey, without the testing broad scale testing and we've come a long way on testing, we knead to go a long way. without that in place, without

our contact tracing in place, an isolation in place, without clear parameters, no one will show up. folks are smarter than the attorney general gives them credit for i'd say with all due respect to him, if we don't think he's right, we'll see him in court. more importantly, the people don't think he's right. those are the folks i've got to protect. >> governor, thank you so much for being with us. and thank you for speaking that truth. you look at any poll and it shows the overwhelming majority of americans, even republicans, support these guidelines staying in place for several more weeks. they understand just like the governor said, mika, we're not ready to open until we have testing that dr. fauci and dr. birx were talking about. >> thank you, governor, very much. coming up, we've got live pictures right now of a bar ren new york city with many people with the means to leave have run for the hills. so, what does that leave behind?

we'll discuss that. >> usually it only looks like that when tj is in time's square. >> that's true. he's not here today. >> so, all right. as we go to break, went to mention that the new editorial, that andy lack, the chairman of nbc news and msnbc news has up, nbc news is up at page think. it's entitled journalism is under attack from coronavirus and the white house, but we're winning. quote, at this dark hour, americans are scared. they're hungry for accurate information and the unvarnished truth. now and in all the days to come, journalists will be there. we're back in a moment. it's best we stay apart for a bit,

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resources, unlike their wealthier counterparts. "the new york times" reports that the university hospital of brooklyn, a publicly funded hospital whose patients are mostly poor and people of color have to turn to gofundme to raise money for protective gear and testing kits. compare that to wealthier hospitals that have been able to use their reserve of cash and political clout to quickly increase patient capacity and acquire protective gear. in one instance, the mt. sinai health system was able to use private planes owned by warren buffett's company to fly in n95 masks from china. this is just one example of how the coronavirus is exposing not only health care but wealth disparities in one of the hardest hit cities in america. new york magazine is out with a new issue on this divide with a cover story that asks, are you rich enough to survive this pandemic? and contributing editor for "new

york" magazine, lisa miller joins us now. she writes a piece entitle ed "e space between us." what's the biggest divide revealed by this virus? >> i mean, in death, people of color are twice as likely in new york city to die of coronavirus than white people. and that's for all of the reasons that we already know about inequality. governor cuomo said the coronavirus was the great equalizer, but actually it's the great unequalizer. poor people tend to live in closer quarters. they tend to have worse access to health care. they tend to have, because of that, more underlying conditions, underlying conditions are correlated with fatality for the disease. so it's, you know, it's just an absolute lens into how unequal our city really is.

>> and what are you finding in terms of the wealthy being able to survive the virus at a higher rate? and are they -- because they're more able to leave these hot spots? >> right. well, the essay i wrote was my own reaction to seeing my friends and my colleagues on zoom, obviously, in their country houses or wherever they could go to, and thinking, you know, there's so much judgment. there's so much reaction. there's so much a sense of betrayal. and what i ended up with was this idea that to live in new york if you are a certain type of person, a striving, affluent, ambitious person requires a certain kind of blindness to the inequalities among us. we walk into rooms, go to parties and bars, especially when we're young and see everybody and feel like we're part of this big human crush. where we love the mix. we love to be like next to

people. and then we understand in a crisis like this that those with the means leave. and those without the means stay. and, you know, over the last 20 years, stratification in new york has never been higher and so those with the means really have a lot of means. >> you look at our health care system in general, you can, obviously, we've seen this our adult life where if for some reason you or a loved one has to go into an emergency room at 10:00, 11:00 at night, there are a lot of single moms, poor single moms who are having to use an emergency room as their primary care physician. i'm just wondering whether what's happened during this pandemic, not just this stark disparity that you're speaking of, but also sort of the teledoctoring that's going on. i wonder if this may be a positive way forward for us to

be able to get health care access for even those who don't have the best health care. >> i mean, i think yes and no, right? i think we'll find that a lot of the procedures and processes that hospitals need to have delivered in the past can actually be done through telemedicine. but i don't think there's any substitute for a doctor's visit or a general practitioner, someone like look at you examining you, putting their hands on you. that's part of what doctors do. and i think a telemedicine approach is just inferior to that. so i think -- again, it's an illustration of inequity because a lot of hospitals have charged a lot of money for unnecessary procedures in order to make money, right? and a lot of people can go and do telemedicine instead of that,

but there's no substitution for seeing your doctor. >> no doubt about it. thank you for being with us. your piece really has highlighted the disparity, the great disparity between rich and poor. the two americas that we've had for quite some time but, my gosh if you just look at the death rates like you said, this pandemic has really underlined it in ways that we can't ignore. lisa miller, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. >> joe, it's -- just thinking about hospitals still desperately trying to get masks at this point and folks who don't have ppe and the testing. it is, as dr. radler pointed out earlier in the show, this is not only devastating for our country but it's despicable. it's absolutely unbelievable that we are in this position, and that, getting supplies to the states, to hospitals of different means backgrounds is not being coordinated by a

national defense production act and they are now scrambling between each other and that rich and poor, that inequity is highlighted even more because the president refuses to streamline it and give across the board equal attention to all. >> and what concerns me also is there are a lot of americans in that central time zone where i've spent the majority of my life that may be looking at this problem as a new york problem and might have heard that segment and said, well, those are just truly disadvantaged in new york city. well, rural health care is as ill equipped to handle this as anybody because their funding from the federal government has been slashed over the past decade. and i've talked to one rural hospital administrator after another, or people who work in that area. they're deeply concerned about what happens and people are reckless in middle america, and then they become overwhelmed

because they say they're not ready for the crush of patients. so jonathan lemire, in the final minute, you're obviously covering the white house beat for the ap. what does this next week look like? what are you going to be following? >> well, connecting to that point, joe, an update to what we talked about earlier. white house officials are saying the president may not actually appear at the briefing today. there may not be a briefing in the -- late this afternoon at the white house but rather meeting with some ceos earlier in the day and they may open that up to the press. that's part of the white house's attempt to pivot more towards the economy and trying to reopen the nation again. but as we have heard time and again on this show today, every day for weeks now, that's not going to be possible without a robust testing program. and the white house to this point has still not produced what many experts and business leaders believe will be needed to make that happen. >> all right, jonathan lemire,

thank you so much. we'll get you back and we'll get you to comment on the finale. the series finale of homeland. that does it for us. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. have a good day. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is monday, april 27th, and here are the facts this hour. we in the united states are on the verge of a stunning milestone. given the average rate of infection, we are expected to be hitting roughly 55,000 americans. that's right. 55,000 americans have died from the virus. at the same time, states across the country are slowing reopening for business. tennessee, montana, mississippi, colorado and minnesota all lifting restrictions on at least some businesses starting today. they join georgia, south carolina, oklahoma and