country grapples with this health crisis, we have heard that researchers at oxford university say their coronavirus vaccine could be ready by year's end after showing promising signs in early trials. in fact, researchers there are so confident in this vaccine they've now partnered with a drug manufacturer before the vaccine has finished its testing phase. the move comes as an attempt to get ahead of any distribution obstacles once the vaccine is deemed safe and effective. with us to talk about this is our chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, so many questions. mumps took four years. human trials, we keep getting told, can't be rushed. this country can't wait to get back to some semblance of normalcy, so how is it they think that by year's end they

could have this up and running? >> so they're not waiting for the end of the research to begin manufacturing. so there is a gamble that this company is taking. it's a company called astrazeneca. i spoke to the ceo a short while ago and he said that even while the research at oxford university is still to be completed and the researchers there think that they will have test results by this summer, they are beginning manufacturing. they're beginning manufacturing immediately and on a massive scale. the ceo told me that they want to have by year's end 100 million doses ready. if the results prove to be negative and the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous or fails the trials in any way, then they dispose of them and they've lost that gamble. as you know, these drug companies don't take these bets

likely, so they are quite confident that this is a winner and they're betting big on it and they're already starting manufacturing and they want to have 100 million doses. the ceo told me that they will be available on what's called an emergency basis so that they would be -- it would be up to governments to decide on a government-by-government basis if they want to go ahead and use these 100 million doses that they hope to have ready by the end of the year. the ceo told me that initially they're going to be selling them at cost, not making a profit, and he said that the cost is actually not very expensive per dose, just a few dollars, and that once the pandemic period is over, then they would start charging more of a market price. it is a vote of confidence because the company is so confident that they are putting their money where their mouth is. >> richard, thank you for explaining that for us. this story has the interest of a whole lot of people on this side

of the atlantic, i can tell you that. richard engel, our chief foreign correspondent. and nicolle wallace, something you say all the time resonates today and that is there's every other conversation and there's the way people and families are choosing to live right now. the people who are staying home, kids out of school, way too many people out of work, but they have -- they're in no hurry to go out certainly to be any part of a large gathering, and it runs counter to the conversation we're hearing from the white house, some states and some companies. >> yeah, and i think that it started on a near parallel track and public opinion has moved in directions that surprise me and i've watched public opinion my entire career and i'm surprised by how unanimously in favor of the sacrifice staying home is,

most people are. and i think that news about the vaccine is important because a lot of people feel that until there's that safety not just for themselves but to make sure that they don't become asymptomatic carriers and bring it home to small children or to someone with a compromised immune system or an older parent. people feel like they are on their own making these decisions. people have become savvy readers of medical information, and i think people are looking to their governors and their local leaders. i think one thing about that vaccine story that intrigues me, this company, astrazeneca, making a big gamble and i'm sure there's some ben evevery lance that decision but you've also got a president of this country who said today in the oval office that he's seizing control of the vaccine efforts, and i wonder if there isn't some

signaling or some comfort in knowing that for his part donald trump is all systems go with the vaccine and these are questions i have about whether or not that impacts the production of something as richard engel just reported which is still in its very early stages of testing. i have more questions than answers though. i don't know if that struck you. >> i would caution people to remember two numbers, 200 million doses is great because right now we're at zero but if the president is going to throw out the word eradication, we need something closer to 8 billion. try to wrap your mind around that. the time has come for me to thank you for having me. i'm going to go watch nicolle wallace on television. >> thank god you were here at the beginning. i was, as you said, full of gremlins. it's always fun to start this shift with you. we'll see you for your next two. when we come back, as donald trump talks about re-opening schools, we're getting a better idea about what that would mean and what it would take for kids and their teachers and families

to stay safe. that's ahead. families to stasay fe that's ahead i'm jo ann jenkins with aarp. the coronavirus continues to affect us all, and we are here, actively supporting you and your community. every day, we're providing trusted information from top health experts...sharing tools to help protect families from fraud... and creating resources to support family caregivers everywhere. as always, you can count on aarp to advocate for you and your family. join us and stay connected at aarp.org/coronavirus - oh.- oh, darn! - wha- let me help. for you and your family. lift and push and push! there... it's up there. hey joshie... wrinkles send the wrong message. help prevent them before they start with downy wrinkleguard.

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open. remember having that feeling for the first time? the first day you opened. the first day you had a customer, the first day you taught a class, had a client, a patient, a session. open... remember the night before you opened? who could ever sleep? open... but there's a different question we are being asked now. are you going to remain open? even when your doors are closed? open. that's how we show who we are. and there's another way to be open, to pull together - or push, depending on the door. and we are making it work and we will continue to make it work together. because open we stand.

you get way more than free shipping. you get thousands when you shop for your home at wayfair of items you need to your door fast the way it works best for you. even the big stuff. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match on your schedule. you get free two day shipping on things that make your home feel like you! wayfair. way more than furniture. it's not a -- it's a bad thing. it grips onto some people. now, we found out that young people do extraordinarily well. that's why i think we can start thinking about schools, but of course we're ending the school season so, you know, it wouldn't be -- probably you wouldn't be back for too long. >> that's donald trump suggesting for the second time this week that schools where

kids all around the country file into crowded hallways sometimes by the thousands and sit side by side in classrooms for hours re-open and proceed almost as normal. but more than 40 states have already said this will not happen at least this academic year. some are even considering postponing the fall return. one thing we can expect no matter when schools re-open, it won't be easy for anyone. as "the new york times" puts it, quote, classes are unlikely to look anything like the school days they remember. students can expect school equipment to be sterilized and meals to be served at their desks or in socially distancing lunch rooms. mass teachers and temperature checks may be common. forget note passing, study groups and resource. joining our conversation, the president of the american federation of teachers, randy winegart winegarten. you gave me one of the most hopeful pictures of the future of education and after reading

that i think kids can do it. i think they understand that they have to keep each other and their teachers and communities safe but it is such a dramatic shift. tell me more about what you think it looks like. >> what we did, nicole, is that yesterday we put out this 22-page document about what it takes to safely open schools which we are making available to the press and to all sorts of -- and to our leaders and members in particular because you have to think about it as the fact that people are scared and it's not the bluster and the misrepresentation that donald trump does. notice he doesn't even actually say what happens with teachers. he talks about only kids, just like he doesn't talk about the meat packing plant employees. but what we did was we said -- >> right, just the meat, you're right.

>> so let's think about five pillars and those five pillars are two public health pillars. you have to have cases go down for 14 days in a row. you have to have a real process for testing, tracing, and isolation. then let's talk about two real kind of nitty-gritty what happens in schools and who has to be involved in the decisions. then you have to talk about how to pay for it. so those were our five pillars, and when you think about the nitty-gritty, you start thinking about from a school viewpoint how do you enter the school, what do you need to do in terms of physical distancing, what do you need to do in terms of making sure that teachers and kids are safe, particularly since so many were asymptomatic

in the end of february and the beginning of march. so what we've actually said to people is let's start planning now. let's start with union committees. let's start with parents. let's actually look at what it looks like. what does half a class look like? what does a staggered schedule look like? what does it look like if you have to screen at the beginning of the day to have some isolation rooms and nurses saying are you sick, not sick, what is temperature like. i think if we actually did that kind of nitty-gritty of planning and got parents and teachers involved in it, we would start actually visualizing what it looks like and overcome some of the fear but with one major -- let me just say one major criteria, which is it has to be safe. we have to make sure that there's very little virus in a community in order for people to feel like it's safe to walk

around. what governor cuomo and others have said, chris hayes did it on his show last night, that you can't have an infection rate of one person infecting more than one person. so that's why the transparency of the first two public health issues are so important. so that's what we put out and that's what we're encouraging our members with parents to start really thinking through. >> it requires an incredible partnership with families and schools and a whole lot of trust. i think teachers have to trust that families are going to keep sick kids home, but that is a luxury and the people that are going to be going back to work in the first wave are people -- it's the same universe of people that don't have someone at home to leave their kids with so how do you support the people who are the first end of the workforce but also facing the most pressure to keep their school communities safe? >> right.

that's part of the reason why this whole notion of isolation and where becomes so important and why -- you know, this is the irony. we're actually going to need more resources, not less resources to do this because -- and why a lot of the other things have to connect with each other. so people who have to go back to work, we're going to have to rely on people's honesty but you're going to have to have nurses and maybe if cdc still thinks it's appropriate, temperature taking. we're going to have to ask kids and parents are they sick. then maybe there's going to have to be some isolation rooms in schools. maybe there's going to have to be some mask wearing in schools. we just don't know, but look what we've done in new york with the rec centers. the rec centers are working for essential workers who needed child care to have their kids there. my point is, just like last time, if you really work together with the public health

experts and listen to the expertise of teachers and then work with parents, i think we can put some models together to actually make this work as long as the first two criteria are real, meaning cases flattening the curve and also testing, tracing and isolation. >> randi, i could have this conversation every day and maybe we should. i think that one of the maybe silver linings and this probably doesn't apply to that many people but if you didn't already appreciate your children's teachers as the angels that they are, if you are trying to approximate a fraction of what they do for your kids in school, you do now. randi winegarten, it's such an important thing on everyone's mind in my universe so thank you for spending some time with us.

>> and they are amazing. >> they are. oh god, makes me cry. we'll keep having this conversation. there's too much for one day. when we come back, preventing a second wave. we'll talk to the governor of colorado about what his state is doing to keep covid at bay. we'll be back after this. g to ky we'll be back after this mind. with fidelity wealth management, your dedicated adviser can give you straightforward advice and tailored recommendations. that's the clarity you get with fidelity wealth management. and tailored recommendations. at philof cream cheese.w what makes the perfect schmear you need only the freshest milk and cream. that one! and the world's best, and possibly only, schmelier. philadelphia. schmear perfection. - [female vo] restaurants are facing a crisis. and they're counting on your takeout and delivery orders to make it through. grubhub. together we can help save the restaurants we love. ♪

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colorado is making moves this week to jump start its economy. nonessential retailers can open tomorrow for pick-up and delivery service, and noncritical commercial businesses can open monday under strict safety and staffing measures. voluntary and elective medical procedures and real estate home showings were given the green light as well earlier this week, but with more than 14,000 cases and more than 700 people in that state losing their lives, the state is recommending all residents, particularly senior citizens, remain home as much as possible. now, a new executive order by donald trump is forcing several colorado meat plants closed by covid outbreaks to re-open. that includes a plant in greeley

where a sixth worker has now died and hundreds more have become sick. governor polis joins us now. let's start with the employees at those plants. how are you going to keep them safe and not sort of contradict or run afoul of the president who has personally ordered all meat processing plants to stay open? >> the gbs meat processing plant in greeley, one of the ones that was talked about, was closed for about a two-week period. there's other in our state that have had smaller covid outbreaks and have taken immediate actions and protection. we're testing over 1,000 people in a community testing site for free for folks right near the jbs plant, both them and their family members, and of course we're looking at what else we can do to make sure that workers are safe and that we can avoid closures that really interrupt our food supply chain and could threaten the food security of the nation. >> do you have all the tests you want and need?

>> well, one of our requests with regard to keeping the food facilities online is additional testing from the federal government. if they're going to be under an executive order, if they are items for national food security which we agreed they are, we need to make sure that there's additional testing so the workers that don't have covid-19 can be released immediately back to work. without that additional testing, there might need to be additional closures or interruptions in the future so making sure that we have testing is absolutely critical. >> when you made a decision to loosen up some of the things to get your economy going again, were you guided by the white house coronavirus task force and its recommendation that you see a 14-day decline in new cases? >> we've had declines for several weeks in hospitalization and new cases, but what we really looked at is how we can sustain this progress. the way that we live in may and

june and july is far more important in saving lives than exactly what day the stay-at-home period ends, so we need to get this right. we learned a lot from the retailers that were open during april, grocery stores, the pharmacies, implementing those best practices across entire retail sector is going to be absolutely critical if we're going to succeed as a state and as a nation. >> so you're talking about the curb side, like if you can pick up a pizza, you should be able to pick up a new ironing board? you're talking about the behavior with food and essential services, expanding those kinds of practices? >> yeah, we have that now so people can place an order with the store. they can pull up. employees of the store bring it out, put it in their trunk, their car, limiting interactions between customers. we also have a mask order for anybody who works in a store. if you're encountering the public, work in a store, you need to wear a mask that covers your nose and mouth at all times while you're interfacing with the public.

>> have you made any decisions about school? do you envision schools in your state coming back at any point this year, or are you guaranteeing a first day of school in the fall? >> we've had a anybody of calls with the superintendents across our state. i expressed great confidence that kids will be back in the fall. might not look exactly what it looks like now. even now during this period where schools are closed for normal in classroom instruction, many school districts are still using their buildings and we encourage that for one-on-ones, for having a small group of 10 or less come in to finish up their vocational unit that involves welding or shop and equipment that they can't get online. the buildings should be used in a safe way. there's ways to do that. you covered in your previous story, you can't have these thousands of people interacting together through passing time in a hallway all interacting and running into one another. it's about redesigning the schedule with the facilities we have to make sure it's as safe as possible for the fall. >> governor polis, thank you for

spending some time with us. we wish you safety in all your next steps. coming up, donald trump is in meltdown mode and now he's using the federal government to help get him out of political danger. "deadline: white house" begins after this. ns after this ♪all strength, ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait,♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat many of life's moments in thare being put on hold. are staying at home, at carvana, we understand that, for some, getting a car just can't wait. to help, we're giving our customers up to 90 days to make their first payment. shop online from the comfort of your couch, and get your car with touchless delivery to keep you safe. and for even greater peace of mind, all carvana cars come with a seven-day return policy. so, if you need to keep moving, we're here for you. at carvana-- the safer way to buy a car.

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hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. twin reports in "the new york times" reveal just how dramatically donald trump is pushing the limits of the government he leads to rewrite

the history of his badly botched response to the coronavirus pandemic that has caused his poll numbers to plunge and called into serious question his re-election prospects. the first report details donald trump's attempt to fast track the vaccine, overlooking safety concerns from the experts. "the new york times" writes this, quote, president trump is pressing his health officials to pursue a crash development program for coronavirus vaccine that could be widely distributed at the beginning of next year despite widespread skepticism that such an effort can succeed and considerable concern about the implications for safety. some officials are apparently trying to talk the president down, telling him that it would be more harmful to set an unreasonably short deadline that would result in a faulty vaccine than to wait for one that is safe and effective. the president's impulses appear to have fallen short since trump told reporters today in the oval office that he is taking the

reins of a new vaccine push known aspiration warp speed himself. >> you know who's the judge of it honestly? i am. i'll tell you, i'm really in charge of it. i could say somebody else. i will say we're dealing with, as you know, the general and the admiral. they're very much in charge, but i think probably more than anything i'm in charge. i'm the one that gets blamed and i get blamed anyway. don't forget, if we come up with a vaccine in record time, they'll say i should have done it faster. >> talk about saying the quiet part out loud, an alarming expression of the president's tightening grip on a process normally, traditionally driven by science, not presidential politics. the scientists aren't the only ones wrankled today by trump's effort at reputational repair. "the new york times" also advancing recent reporting on u.s. intelligence agencies which we learned this week provided intel in the president's pdb as early as january about the

lethal spread of covid. those same agencies now have been tapped with investigating one of trump world's most favorite conspiracy theories. "new york times" says, quote, senior trump administration officials have pushed american spy agencies to hunt for evidence to support an unsubstantiated theory that a government lab in wuhan, china was the origin of the coronavirus outbreak. that's according to current and former american officials. the effort comes as president trump escalates a campaign to blame china for the pandemic. some intel analysts are concerned that the pressure from administration officials will distort assessments about the virus and that they could be used as a political weapon in an intensifying battle with china over a disease that has infected more than 3 million people across the globe. the stories of trump reaching deep into the government agencies charged with science and national security to aid his political goals comes as new reporting reveals the depth of his political panic. reports from several outlets

this morning say donald trump blew up at his campaign manager last week for telling him the truth, that he's losing to joe biden in key swing states, according to their own internal polls and suggesting trump's public-facing response to coronavirus is hurting him when it comes to his re-election. the meltdown and the overreach are where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. from "the new york times," chief white house correspondent peter baker, also with us dr. ann ramon, a profession of epidemiology at the ucla school of public health, plus former democratic congresswoman donna edwards. peter baker, another banner day of reporting on this president and this crisis in "the new york times." take me through first the david sanger story on concern that he's ignoring science and safety in his push for the vaccine and the president's own basically confirmation of that story today in the oval. >> look, you want a president to push for faster action. the question is does he push so hard that people cut corners.

that's what obviously is the danger. this is a president who has said from the beginning that a vaccine would be available soon. those are the words he used, relatively soon, even though of course it's going to be a year, a year and a half away. the fastest any vaccine has been developed was i think four years in crises like this so you can't expect it to be an overnight kind of thing and he has promised that already to the american people. so i think that the concern here is that politics, the drive to get this solved particularly before the election alters what should be a scientific process. >> doctor, he's been pushing for a vaccine process that bypasses science out loud and on tv. here he is in march doing just that. >> so you're talking over the next few months you think you can have a vaccine?

>> to go into testing. >> how long would that take? >> phase two would take a few months. >> you're talking within a year? >> a year to a year and a half. >> he's talking about two months. >> and we would be there in june. >> in a couple of months. i like the sound of a couple of months better. let's be honest. >> so, he makes no secrets that his timeline is tied to a political calendar, not a testing and trial calendar. >> well, you're right. politics and pandemics are always related, but the truth of the matter is that we cannot have vaccines related to politics in terms of timing and how they get ruled out. we have to follow very serious

rigorous testing and the process -- animal studies, phase one studies, phase three studies, phase four studies. as everybody has said who is in this field -- i'm just going to amplify it and say it again. we cannot cut corners here. we will need to have a vaccine that is effective and also safe and then production will need to scale up and we'll have to then be able to get it out to the population. this is not something that we can do cutting corners. i appreciate the need for speed and to move as quickly as we possibly can. that is true and that is important, but we cannot get around the science that needs to be done and the safety testing that needs to take place. >> donna edwards, it's so on brand for donald trump to carry his norm busting through to science, and shame on me for being surprised that he's doing

that. he's done it in law enforcement. he's done it in intelligence agencies. he's done it in diplomacy. he's done it at world war ii commemorations so i don't know why i'm shocked anew to hear an american president in the oval office say i've got an admiral and a general but i'm in charge of the vaccine development and testing process, but shocked i am. what do you hear when you hear donald trump talking about taking over the process for approving and speeding a vaccine to market? >> well, i suppose your shock is actually shared by myself and many americans. the reason for that is that we want a president to marshal all of the resources possible to save lives. that's not a question. but the problem with this president is his willingness to leapfrog, ignore science and facts, on a range of different questions and especially on this one that not only by moving a

drug into market, a vaccine in too quickly without the proper procedures could result in the loss of life and the continued loss of life because of coronavirus. so the scary part about this president is that he doesn't really hide what he thinks, and so here we have a president who on one hand one week tells you to inject disinfectant and the next week says i'm going to be the one in charge in minding the vaccine, and so we're hopeful that our food and drug administration, our scientists and researchers are not going to heed the push by the president of the united states to jump over top of where the science takes us. >> that's a great reminder, donna edwards. we have already lost one of the top vaccine scientists who left over donald trump pushing and pushing and pushing on the hydroxychloroquine drug.

that's a good reminder. peter baker, i want to turn to another piece of reporting in "the new york times" by your colleagues, mark ba zety, julian barnes and adam goldman who wrote, senior trumps officials have been pushed to hunt for evidence to support an unsubstantiated theory. you could stop right there and say what gives, but it's about a government laboratory in wuhan that was the origin of covid. now, i've seen this kind of stuff pedalled in the right wing media and i still try to keep an eye on it but it's still stunning to read it in a triple biline piece of reporting about the intelligence community being asked to make it true because trump wants it true. >> that's exactly the point, nicolle. it's one thing to say to intelligence agencies see if this true and the agency to come back, we've tried, looked, we don't have any evidence for it, okay. it's another thing to push because you believe already in a preconceived way it must be true

and therefore you're seeking out pieces of evidence that might verify your conclusions. we've seen this in the past of course as you know in recent years where it's easy to look at evidence and come to the conclusion we already have and then come to regret it later. so the trick is relying on the intelligence professionals who have done this for many years and who can sift through this evidence rather than looking for evidence or ammunition in a political war. there's certainly plenty enough information and criticism of the chinese government for what we already know without having to rely on something that's just a conspiracy theory if there's no evidence there for it. >> peter baker, it also sort of conjures up and brings people back to how botched the dynamic is between donald trump and china and it lives on tape forever the things that donald

trump was saying about china having everything under control, about the numbers of cases going down to zero at the same time he was negotiating a trade deal. there's blood pressure reporting in your newspaper and others that he was being told contemporaneously in his ppb that the opposite might have been true. >> right. that's exactly right. we also of course have a fraught relationship between this president and his intelligence agencies. remember, this is the president who's never completely totally accepted the intelligence agencies' conclusion about russian interference in the 2016 when they went before congress and offered assessments of north korea and iran that contrasted with what the president wanted them to say. he called them on the carpet and said they need to go back to school. when the intelligence agencies give him information that doesn't suit him, he's made very clear he's not willing to accept it whole cloth. now of course it's the opposite way. he's pushing them to provide information that would fit into

the narrative he's been constructing which is this is china's fault and he did nothing wrong. yesterday he said we made all the right moves, and jared kushner said the american story is a success story, putting it off on china in order to make clear that there's a villain out there and it's not in the oval office. >> donna edwards, i don't have words to even express associating a success story with the deaths of tens of thousands of americans and the infection of more than a million, but i do have words for the reporting that made its way into just about every newspaper early this morning and that's that donald trump threatened to sue his campaign manager, mr. paschall, for showing him polls that showed him losing. now, in normal times you fire a campaign manager if he shows you polls that are wrong. those polls are probably right. >> well, the polls are probably right and i think what the

president doesn't want to do is the same thing that we see in other instances. he refuses to take responsibility for his own culpability in where his poll numbers are right now. i mean, what we can see is first of all the american people clearly do not trust this president when it comes to anything that he says at the podium involving coronavirus or the response to that. secondly, they don't really trust his ability to handle that, and i think you see that reflected in the polls, and donald trump's kind of, you know, really erratic performance at the podium i think has contributed to that and the president doesn't want to take responsibility. look, i've won and lost elections before and i guess if there were a legal theory that would involve me suing my campaign manager, boy, that would be a trick. but it's not going to work for the president either. >> you know, dr. rimoine, i'm

going to let you dodge questions about suing campaign managers but i'm going to put you on the spot about testing. if the mayor of los angeles can promise testing and can say and mean it that everyone that wants a test can have one, why seven, eight, nine weeks after donald trump said that se sat the cdc t he make that true? >> i think that it's very -- i think that california has done a very good job of planning and of getting ahead of the curve with many different things, and we're talking about a city versus an entire country here. i do think that we've all suffered from the fact that we do not have widespread testing and we are far behind. there's been some question about whether or not testing can be offered across the country, and we still don't have enough swabs. we still don't have enough reagents, and we still don't

have enough capacity around the country to be able to manage this. so i think that doing this in california and in particular doing this in the city of los angeles has been because we've had a very proactive mayor who has been working very, very hard to make this happen and having jumped in early to flatten the curve we've been able to avoid some of the pitfalls that other places have. so we've had a little bit of bandwidth. i do though want to make clear that all of our strategies going forward, the vaccines, they're going to be very important. they're going to take time. the patherapeutics, still goingo take time. but testing is what we need to do now. we need it for everybody. we need it widespread. we have to know where we are on the curve. >> dr. rimoin, it's a great

reminder, a good place to start and stop. peter baker, wonderful to see you and to get to talk about all the great stories in your paper today. donnau, my friend. thank you for starting us off. when we come back, donald trump's pattern of pedaling conspiracies, whether it's fighting the intelligence presented to him or using the justice department to root out perceived political enemies. we'll talk about his personal truther him in those fronts and bleak political prospects for trump inside that eruption at his own campaign manager. plus the sister of a doctor who took her own life after treating patients sick with coronavirus speaks out today. what she wants us to know about the health care workers who are suffering so much. all those stories coming up. p.

intelligence agencies today said that they agree with the scientific community that the virus did originate in china but was not man made and was not that? >> i haven't seen the report yet but i will tell you if you speak to the head of intelligence right now, you speak to the head, they did say that i was given a briefing when i said i was given it, not before, and they also said that it wasn't specific and it was not a panic briefing. it wasn't like, oh, we're going to be invaded. it was in january. >> asked about a statement from the office of the director of national intelligence, one that debunks a suggesting the coronavirus was man made in china, donald trump opted to defend his own pandemic response and theories with reports suggesting he ignored warnings about the virus in his

daily briefings for months, it's noteworthy and certainly not lost on critics who suggest that trump's decision to focus american spy agencies on the government lab in wuhan is nothing more than an effort to deflect blame from his own lacking response. joining us, former fbi general counsel and msnbc legal analyst, andrew wiesman. we're used to seeing you every day. i've missed your face and there's so much to talk about. what do youall, there are no coincidences in politics and i find it interesting that the same week that "the washington post" runs a story about what was in donald trump's pdb, news organizations including my own are reporting on donald trump turning his intelligence community to investigate a conspiracy theory coming from a lab in wuhan. >> one positive development if there can be any silver lining to the coronavirus and what's

going on is that it shows us ththe president that we have and the fact that he does not face reality or the facts. coming up with a conspiracy theory to try and foment his xenophobia with respect to the chinese has just as much factual support as taking clorox and other household detergents internally as a cure for a vi s virus, it's surreal and sad but i think that this is just yet another distraction and it can be put in the same category as fake news from the white house. >> yeah. i had 13 different questions for

you but i'm going to put them aside because you just sort of made my brain move in other directions. i want to ask you this, are we foolish to think or to have any doubt that he's not squeezing science if hee squeezed the leader of ukraine for dirt on joe biden, squeezed rod rosenstein, jim comey and your old boss, bob mueller, over the russia investigation. he's never on the side of facts and always on the side of his personal either legal amims or defenses or some political motive. are we foolish that he's saying he wants to take over the vaccine process? >> i think that's transparent. i've been thinking a lot recently about the very, very diff our expert doctors like dr. fauci who are revered in the medical community, the situation they're in when you compare it to all

the other people prior to the coronavirus where we were concerned about why is the person who wrote the anonymous op-ed in "the new york times," why are people in the government not speaking out. you really find that people who are being squeezed by the white house and when there are lives at stake and when national security is at stake they're in a really tough position of needing to try to do the right thing for the american people to save lives and to have to put up with a lot of politics and really salacious arguments in order to do their job for the public. >> it's such a good point. it's happening in real time. the other individuals i mentioned are still targets of the right wing media operation. tony fauci has been a target of

the right wing media operation. he's worked for presidents ronald reagan, first george w. bush. he worked for my old boss, the 43rd president. he's worked for democratic presidents. you've been on the receiving end of those kind of attacks against a deep state. what do you think the experience is like for someone like tony fauci whose work has never been politicized in anything that approximates what's happening right now? >> i think he's doing a remarkable job. i think people can rightly criticize here and there on places where should he be picking his battles better, but he's in a really tough spot because he is really trying to do god's work for the country. you'd think that in this kind of environment you would see the country coming together in an apolitical way. you and i have lived through

9/11. in my lifetime that's the only other thing that's even remotely comparable. the spirit in the country after that event was something that really was something that you could grab onto and feel truly patriotic, and you don't have any of that emanating from washington. it's unfortunate because i think the american people are really fundamentally good, and i think dr. fauci is a national hero. >> i do too. i want to ask you about mike flynn because donald trump is tweeting about him anew. what is that all about, and at this point why doesn't he just pardon him already? it's clear that's what donald trump wants to do. >> well, i think that -- i was in the department of justice for over 20 years and i think the way i look at this is from the parochial point of view of what

i think the department is doing which i think the department is trying to soften the blow and make it politically easier for the president to pardon general flynn. the disclosure of documents from a purported neutral team that is reviewing the flynn case, it seems kind of laughable to me. as far as i can tell, what was disclosed was really similar to what's already been disclosed. there's nothing new there, so i wouldn't be surprised if there's a pardon and it will be the first case in which there's a pardon where the person being pardoned is really somebody who was in bed with the president. in other words, this is one -- we've seen pardons which i think were fairly outrageous. i've seen that not just from

this president but from other presidents in the past, but here it's somebody who he really has no business being involved in that process because he's obviously not going to be objective in deciding what to do here. >> well, that seems to make it the perfect case for donald trump. andrew wiesman, it's good to see your face. thanks for spending time with us at this extraordinary time. thank you, my friend. after the break, is it panic time for donald trump's re-election team? new reports indicating he erupted in anger at his staff when presented with the real news about his poll numbers. how scared is donald trump of joe biden? that's next. scared is donald tr joe biden? that's next. at leaf blowers. you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. and you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. make ice.

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more than 60,000 people have died, nearly 30 million people are out of work, and polling shows that joe biden leads donald trump in some states, and

that is what has the president up at night and fuming at his campaign manager. as we mentioned, several news outlets reporting about a meeting trump had last week with his campaign staff where he was presented with grim information for his re-election prospects. the a.p. writes it this way, quote, trump was trailing the former democratic vice president in many key battleground states. he was told he would have lost the electoral college if the election had been held earlier this month. the new york says, quote, he lashd out his campaign manager and said it was other people's fault that there had been fluctuations in a race they had all seen as his to lose just two months ago. at one point mr. trump said he would not lose to mr. biden and insisted the data was wrong and blamed the campaign manager for the fact that he's down in the polls. joining our conversation, msnbc national analyst john heilemann and communications director -- former communications director from the obama white house and

the hillary clinton 2016 presidential campaign, jen palmieri. why is he so mad at poor brad paschall who didn't tell america to drink bleach to clean their lungs. you've worked for candidates and for all the things you can say about george w. bush and john mccain, they actually took responsibility for their own fluctuations in the polls. >> there's so much here. first of all, the leaks, right? there's so many leaks. every outlet got their own scoop. >> a leak is to one outlet. this is in like six outlets. this isn't a leak. this is like a blast. >> it's like trump might as well have stood up at the podium himself and related all these dee details to us. it's as if trump doesn't appreciate that march and april happened. he thinks that biden is a weak nominee. he thinks the party is not actually very enthusiastly aligned behind biden and he seems to think he's not going to

pay a price for tens of thousands of americans having died from coronavirus. he got briefed on wednesday about how his corona briefings were hurting him and went out on thursday and said people should inject bleach. so he really doesn't seem to understand on the democratic side how motivated democrats are to vote against him and they are behind joe biden. he's not a weak nominee. >> the person who doesn't think he's a weak nominee, john heilemann, is donald trump who got impeached to try to take joe biden out. there's no way donald trump is surprised that joe biden is a threat to him in the kind of states that swung his way in '16. >> right. but i'll say a couple things. one, trump has gone for three and a half years, nicolle, and particularly for the last year or so believing in his soul that no matter what he did, no matter how he acted, no matter what happened in the world he had one gigantic ace in the hole which

was the economy. losing that, coming to terms with the fact that the economy is where it is right now and that it's going to be as bad as it's going to be for the next few months and probably all the way to election day, it might get a little better but trump is shell shocked i think and barely starting to get his arms around what it means to try to run a campaign when the thing you've been relying on for all these months is no longer there. the other thing and you guys both know this, a thing i think a lot of people don't understand. when a presidential incumbent runs for re-election people often think that the campaign after happens labor day. if you look back at obama and romney in 2012, if you look back at your boss in 2004, if you look back at bill clinton in 1996, the reality is the race is often won or lost in the spring, not in the fall. so bill clinton disqualifies bob dole in the spring of 1996. barack obama disqualifies mitt

romney in the spring of 2012. trump doesn't understand, he thinks the race happens in the fall. right now these numbers are getting set and he's just starting to wake up to the fact that he might be losing the election today. >> john heilemann, just to follow up, it also renders inexplicable where he's spending his time and attention. he cannot -- he almost -- he's dealt himself out of the opportunity to lead the 23% of the country that still trusts him. so his trustworthy numbers are at about 23. that's one poll number he should believe. >> right. >> i'm not joking. he should grab that 23% and just start thinking about doing things -- he's not even pleasing or leading his own base is my point. his own base shouldn't drink or inject bleach either. his own base doesn't want to go back to work when it's not safe. what doesn't make sense -- his stupid tweets are what they've always been, stupid, impulsive. phil rucker reported at the top

of the three that they're flying to arizona with the thousands of people that it takes to move an american president because he feels doopcooped up. poor guy. so does america. but the idea that he can no longer focus himself, this is how i think he ultimately kind of sustained his outside the box campaign. he managed to stay focused on his base. he's not even doing that anymore, john. >> no, and i think, look, i think that is the -- i'm just trying to go back to the beginning of our discussion, nicolle, which is why is he freaking out? what's the thing that's causing him to freak out? the leaks are telling obviously but his degree of rage, he used to -- the one thing about trump, he's always abusive to people, even the people closest to him, but if you think back to the 2016 campaign you didn't have a lot of this leaking and you didn't have an enormous amount of trump lashing out at the small circle of people around him who are trying to help him get elected. it's now this turning against brad par scale, turning against

his own team inside. he's having vertigo right now and it's kind of -- it's om omnipresent. it's happening in terms of his understanding of what could possibly win for him and it's even knocking him off balance when it comes to the relatively small number of people around him who are genuinely loyal to him in the political universe. you see a guy who's spinning wildly out of control and i think that's -- the picture we're seeing right now is a president who's utterly off balance, even off balance from the way we all think he's off balance but the people who love him think he's on balance. he's not even on balance for them right now. >> such a good point. i have 5,000 more questions for both of you so we're going to have you stay. after the break, the phrase rose colored glasses doesn't begin to describe it. team trump's desperate attempt to recast the president's coronavirus response as, wait for it, a great success story. don't go anywhere. t for it, a great success story. don't go anywhere. when the world gets complicated,

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stimulant laxatives forcefully stimulate i switched to miralax for my constipation. the nerves in your colon. miralax works with the water in your body to unblock your system naturally. and it doesn't cause bloating, cramping, gas, or sudden urgency. miralax. look for the pink cap. some of the facts are coming out and we did all the right moves. i'll tell you, we were talking to mike before. if we didn't do what we did, you would have had a million people die, maybe more, maybe 2 million people die. >> the federal government rose to the challenge and this is a great success story. i think that that's really what needs to be told. >> all the right moves? more than 60,000 people have

died. you're calling it a success story? peter baker of the "new york times" writes history doesn't agree with that assessment. quote, neither mr. trump nor mr. kushner addressed why the president for weeks played down the virus, comparing it with the ordinary flu, predicting cases would miraculously go down to zero and suggesting the virus would disappear. people close to the white house say mr. kushner agreed with mr. trump early on that the democrats and the news media were hyping the virus, although mr. kushner's allies say he always took it seriously. i've struggled with four years now with how to calibrate and even organize and prioritize the lies, but there's something more than just the president lying again, which barely registered as a headline. it used to be the sort of thing that was a big political scandal. now it's just thursday, but it's

the callousness and it's really hard to watch the party of life, the republican party, look the other way as donald trump and his white house staff and his political allies running states that are rushing to re-open sort of shrug their shoulders at the tragic, seismic, staggering, heartbreaking, daily, hourly loss of life. >> it's good that we can still be shocked, right? it's good that you still have that reaction to be shocked, particularly when he's talking about 60,000 americans having died. i think he's trying to talk to that 23% you were mentioning before the break, the 23% that's still hanging in there with him, giving them some story line that they can hold onto for why this is going to be okay. by the time they get to november -- jared said the economy was going to be really rocking by july i believe is the quote. we'll get to the summer and see how it's actually doing but they're trying to lay down a

fake story line that makes their leadership okay for the people who are willing to believe it. >> i think the departure, jen, is that it's not a stretch of the truth, it's a total revision. i think that if you look at all that his base has carried on and every politician burdens their base with their setbacks or the difficult things about their presence. even great presidents burden their base of support with things that make it harder, but this president is asking his base to accept a complete fiction without any knowledge that his base won't be directly impacted or have firsthand information about just how lethal and dangerous and devastating the pandemic is. >> maybe this will be the time we see what the limits to that support are, right? when people in their own lives have lost their job, people in their own lives have people who are sick, perhaps even people who have passed because of the

coronavirus, that will they accept this version of the truth and the polling that you saw last week would suggest that he may have -- it may have run its course this time and not be able to get those folks back. it is a new level, even for him. >> it is a new level, and it's what always shapes the outcome of presidential elections. it's not an add, it's not a hire, a donation. it's an intervening event and how a politician responds to it. >> yeah, look -- >> i heard your dog bark. would your dog like to get in on that? >> he was in here for a second and decided to take off. he started hearing about the death totals and i think got depressed like the rest of us because he has a decent concept of how horrific this whole thing is.

i do think that -- you know, you think about where we are. we were talking before about the verdicts, about how important this period of time in a presidential campaign is, that things get sunken in, that impressions get baked in. this is a transformative event and you think about the polling that we've seen in state after state, governors, democratic governors and republican governors in the case of mike dewine for instance or governor hogan, you have people who are all in the mid 60s, low 70s approval ratings where donald trump is in the low 40s, high 30s and on the trustworthy number, the one you cited earlier in the program, in the 20s, right? you look at the polling on putting kids back in school where you've got 80 or 85% of parents who are saying no way, we're not ready to put our kids back in school and donald trump is out there saying maybe it's time to open up the schools. the voters are speaking every day right now in almost every respect on the issues that matter that are coming out of this pandemic they are on the other side of donald trump.

i think that they are -- it is a question of like where we're going to find out what the course of his base is but it really is, i think this moment is giving us a window about why this event is obviously different in a bunch of ways but it may be different in terms of its political dynamics and how those political dynamics stick to donald trump in a way that he cannot shake. >> that is a much better way of putting something that i tried to point out yesterday when we saw the maris polling which had those numbers, 91% don't think they should go to a sporting event. what does trump think his rallies approximate in terms of crowd size and proximity to the person next to you. 85% don't want their kids back in school until it's safe. 61% don't want to go to restaurants. this is the most divergent, the trump world view and what they're sort of preaching from wherever they do that, fox news, the morning show, all those places. this is the most at odds it has

been with american public opinion. do you think that holds, john heilemann? >> i think that it sets -- i think that it creates the context in in which the argumen that we're going to have in the fall, and, again, the one thing we don't know is will the virus be back in the fall before election day or not? and if it's back it's a totally different scenario. but even if it doesn't come back, the argument we're going to have, and you can tell this is the only terrain donald trump can fight this election on is i built the world's greatest economy and i'm better qualified than joe biden to bring it back. and i think that the ways in which trump's failures and his -- not just failures from the standpoint of liberal pundits but from the standpoint of how americans feel right now and how they are in public opinion reflecting views that are very dayimning regarding th president's leadership and whether it's about talking about his leadership, that sort of sets the context in which

trump's argument that he's the one who is best qualified to bring the economy back. that's the context in which that argument can take place. i'm not in any way predicting that donald trump can't win re-election. but it will be daunting given what has happened in these last few months, it would be daunting and really difficult for him to make that argument that he has to make in an effective way given to how a verse to his leadership and his points of view most americans have been in this period. >> john heilemann, we will work the topics with the pooches next time so that we don't repel them with the somber nature of the discussions around here. thank you for letting us borrow you for a little bit from the hounds that obviously run the house. jennifer palmieri, thank you for spending some time with us. great to see both of your faces. i miss you guys around the table. we want to let you know that vice president joe biden will join joe, mica, willy, and team tomorrow morning on "morning

joe." when we come back, some much needed perspective, a look at a life well lived. that's next. ved. that's next. .

♪ a couple days ago we told you about dr. lorna breen. she was a front line manhattan emergency room doctor who contracted the coronavirus. seemingly recovered. then died by suicide days later. this morning our nbc news colleague savannah guthrie spoke to her sister. >> what did she say about what it was like in her hospital? >> she said it was like armageddon. she said there are so many sick people everywhere. she said people are just dying in the waiting room before they even get in. there aren't enough hookups for the oxygen to help them.

they're not getting admitted fast enough. you know, we can't keep up. she had 12-hour shifts. and when she finished, she said i can't leave. nobody's leaving. i have to stay and help. and i kept telling my sister, you know, you can't -- if you can't function, you can't help anybody. you have to sleep. you have to rest. she didn't want to give up. she would not give up. she would not let it break her, which, of course, it did. >> i know that's one of the reasons why you're talking to me today is because you want to help, and you want to put this country on notice that their health care workers need care too. >> very much so. and i'm hearing so much from people who work in health care saying we always have to be brave. we always have to be strong. it's not okay to say that you're suffering. there's a stigma. and i know my sister felt like

she couldn't sit down. she couldn't stop working. and she certainly couldn't tell anybody she was struggling. and that needs to be a conversation that changes. >> she's absolutely right. to all health care workers and your families, we see you. we're so grateful for you. we think about you all the time. in new york city we bang our pots and scream out our windows and honk the horns. and if you need help, follow jennifer's advice. talk to someone. that does it for our hour. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. our coverage continues with chuck todd right after a quick break. uick break. won't be a new thing. and it won't be their first experience with social distancing. overcoming challenges is what defines the military community. usaa has been standing with them,

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♪ professionally, we all wish we knew to treat this like a marathon and not a sprint.