hey there, i'm joshua johnson at nbc news world headquarters in new york. it's very good to be with you tonight. as some americans are getting ready for work tomorrow, perhaps monday will be your first day back at work since the coronavirus shutdowns began. the u.s. has more than 1.1 million confirmed cases and more than 67,000 known deaths. still, many states have begun to jump start their economies. by tomorrow, 33 states will have some businesses reopening. every state in territories waiting for treatments or a vaccine to help us feel safer getting back to work. president trump is pushing hard for this revival, partly because the economy is key to his reelection strategy.

a new report from the washington post details 34 days of this pandemic. according to the post, the president desperately tried to get us back to business without building the public health infrastructure that experts have been clamoring for. texas is among the states ending some lockdowns. movie theaters were able to reopen as of friday. the day before texas reported its highest single-day death toll. reaction to this appear mixed according to the latest dallas news ut tyler poll. half of texans said they are not yet comfortable shopping in malls and stores. they expressed more comfort in going to work or dining out. the poll also showed that texans are split on approving of how president trump is handling this outbreak. but the administration says this has been a success. here's what president trump said tonight at a virtual town hall. >> what i did is i warily, i closed our country to china. nancy pelosi was a month later saying, it's going to pass.

everybody, even tony fauci was saying it's going to pass, not going to be a big deal. >> plenty for us to discuss. let's dive in with tonight apartments panel. jeff mason is a white house reporter for reuters. the executive for the mobile app quibby. and senior political analyst jonathan allen. glad to have all of you with us tonight. jeff mason, let me start with you. where do we read the president's perspective now on this crisis and the path forward? how much has it changed in the last week or so, and how much is the same? >> well, that's a good question, joshua. i think the president is certainly focused on seeing this country reopened and he's been focused on that for sometime. took some controversy because it's easy to forget now. weeks and weeks a go he was saying let's get the country open by easter. that, of course, wasn't possible because the virus was still

spreading. and the virus is still spreading now, so the question is will the states follow the guidance that the president's coronavirus task force has put forward in terms of staged openings? and how will that affect the economy and how will that affect him politically going forward? >> shawna, the post quoted a senior administration official as saying the doctors and scientists advising the administration had, and the officials' words, a bit of a god complex. this person went on to say these advisors are, quote, science, science, science, which is good, but sometimes there is less of a consideration of politics than maybe there should be, unquote. there is a real tension between keeping people safe and getting people back to work. shawna, how do you think that tension will evolve from here? >> i mean, it's pretty clear that the president wants people to get back to work. he wants to reopen the country. but even as we saw in the town hall as people were asking

questions that fox news had gathered, he was also putting it back in the hands of the states. he was saying that he was answering questions basically saying, hey, that kind of question depends on your governor. i think one of the things, that tension you're seeing in politics, one of the ways he's working through it, is to make sure you know that the governors are responsible -- i'm not saying they're the only ones responsible, but i think that is kind of one of the tactics he is using. and as things open up, and if things go well, he'll get to say, hey, i put the plan together that these governors used and be able to use that. if something goes wrong in one state, he'll be able to say, hey, that governor didn't follow the plan. >> jonathan, let me play another cut from the town hall that aired this evening on fox news regarding the administration's efforts. here is an exchange between the president and brett baird.

>> it is. >> when you look at the other side, that you're on the other side medically, do you think that as deaths are going up and cases are going up, that we really are on the other side medically and that this is a great success story from the federal government? >> well, it's too soon to say that really i guess because we're still in the middle of something. certainly we would have lost a lot more people, brett, if we would have done -- as an example, you call it herd. if you had done herd -- in other words, everything's wonderful, let's keep going. >> herd immunity. >> we would have lost a million people, 1 1/2, 2 million people. the american people have done a good job. this is a tragic situation. >> tragic indeed. how do we read the president's argument this was a success? >> it's an incredibly low bar he set for himself, joshua, if he had done absolutely nothing, if the presidency had been vacant more people would have died than

with him as president. that's probably not the campaign slogan you would imagine a president would want to run on. as far as success goes, there are things that the administration has done with president trump kicking and screaming effectively to limit -- to mitigate the death and the spread of the disease. i mean, for example, i really didn't want to put out that state home guidance for very long. as jeff pointed out, he had hoped to lift that by easter. you can only imagine what the fatalities would have looked like by now if they had actually followed through with that plan. some of my colleagues at nbc, phil had been reporting on what's going on inside the administration as this reopening plan goes forward. in draft documents that we obtained, there was talk from people at fema, hhs, the defense department basically on the task force saying they were very concerned there aren't enough tests. very concerned about a possible,

quote, catastrophic resurgence of the disease, and concerned that there's no treatment. >> jeff, we know that president trump is going to tout the economy as a core tenet of his reelection case. now, we're six months from the election so there's a lot of daylight between now and november 3rd. but are there any early indications of how that's working for him? >> well, i think they're watching the polling closely and i think that you've seen just in the last week both by being at the white house like i am and the people watching the white house from afar, that they've had to chase their communications strategy. the president's strategy of holding daily briefings and touting whatever he wanted to tout, be it his very highly criticized comment about disinfectant to a whole list of other things. that has changed on some level from a strategic point of view because now they're holding events in the east room and he's getting out on the road this week, on tuesday going to

arizona. so i think they're watching the polling, joshua, to get to your question and seeing the results that aren't exactly what they want to see. you also hear him talking about the economy and looking forward to the third quarter and the fourth quarter, saying that the third quarter is going to be a transition, but the fourth quarter, which happens to be the quarter where the november election falls, is going to be good. that's what he's saying at this point. it's pretty hard to imagine that. >> shawna, today the president tweeted that the intelligence community confirmed his statement that they did not bring up coronavirus until late january. we have reported that the president's daily brief began including warnings about coronavirus in at least early january. the president asserts his travel ban on china was right and we in the press got it wrong. are we any closer now to knowing who knew what and when? >> i don't really think so, and i think, you know, from a

political standpoint i feel a lot of people are going to vote on or one of the things they're going to vote on is the response to this, but also how they were personally affected by covid-19 when we get to the election. you know, history usually is pretty good and political historians are pretty good at somehow unweaving these things and trying to give us a clear idea of what happened. but for now i think we look at the reporting, we look at what the president says and in some ways you're going to have to make a decision about what seems most believable. but i do think in the town hall tonight, the president said that there will be some type of statement or something coming this week from the intelligence agencies trying to even more publicly clean up what seems to be a lot of inconsistencies so we'll also i think have to see more about that. >> jonathan, i could use kind of a signal versus noise reading from you on the president's tweet. setting the one we just read aside, yesterday the president wrote he is glad that north

korea's kim jong-un is back and well. kim had been rumored to be ill or dead and the north korean government released what it claims is recent video of him. we have no way of authenticating that. the president also agreed with a tweet claiming that he has done more for black americans than all other presidents combined. and in his response he added, quote, honest abe wasn't bad, unquote. how much of this is signal and how much of this is noise? i mean, we have a pandemic to stop and i don't feel like being distracted by stupidity right now. how much of this other stuff should we be thinking about? does that even matter in the context of all of this? >> not to a single person who is on a vaping-relateentilator and single person trying to get personal protective equipment, not to a single person trying to get a test, not to anybody who has lost a family member. it's all noise and not to speak for african americans, joshua, but i would argue that the polling and past elections suggest that the president is not the most popular president

with african americans in american history or really even close. >> jeff, in our last few seconds, is there anything out of the white house in the week to come with regards to coronavirus that we should be keeping an eye out for? >> well, i mentioned his trip to arizona. i think you might see the president doing more travel as well and see what the messaging from that is, what are they trying to highlight and what does that mean about the numbers that they're seeing. >> jeff mason of reuters, shawna thomas from quibby and jonathan allen of msnbc.com, thanks very much for making time for us. coming up, tens of millions of americans lost their jobs in the coronavirus outbreak. a california congressman joins us with his proposal to help us get through it next. ext. it's the next one. you always drive this slow? how did you make someone i love? that must be why you're always so late. i do not speed. and that's saving me cash with drivewise. [mayhem] you always drive like an old lady? [tina] you're an old lady.

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washington, d.c., continues to be a coronavirus hot spot. still, the senate will reconvene tomorrow. both chambers of congress have been on a month-long recess.

they adjourned after passing the cares act in late march. the cares act created the paycheck protection program and sent cash to millions of people. but since mid-march, more than 30 million new unemployment claims have been filed. joining us now is california congressman ro khanna. he sits on the house budget and oversight committees. his direct is just north of san jose. congressman khanna, welcome. >> thank you for having me on. >> this morning an op-ed from joe biden and elizabeth warren called for moreover site of the cares act funds. that op-ed also criticized the president for his approach to oversight. do you agree with their assessment? and if so, what kind of oversight would you be pushing for? >> absolutely. i mean, when we saw the ppp program, most of the businesses who got the loans were businesses that knew the bankers. they were often businesses that had over 200 employees, when we know in this country that it's actually the small businesses,

businesses under 20 employees, that are creating most of the jobs. and many minority communities were excluded from those loans. so we need to make sure that those loans are actually going to the businesses that are creating the jobs and need the help. >> the original cares act represented $2.2 trillion in relief. the interim bilal indicated nearly a half billion more. what's the next step? >> i think we have to focus on three things. first, we should be giving every american a $2,000 check if they're under $250,000 of household income at least for a few months until this crisis lasts. i mean, one $1200 check just doesn't pay the rent bill. it's not enough to put groceries on the table. and if the government is telling people they can't work, which is the responsible thing in many communities, then we have an obligation to help them meet their expenses. second, we need to have a workers bill of rights that senator warren and i have proposed of people who are doing the essential work.

they should be protected. they should have basic child care. third, we need to have some assistance for testing, some massive assistance in getting the production capacity, which has been the real bottleneck. >> i want to come back to that workers bill of rights in just a second. but with regards to the money, we should be clear that this money is being spent against the nation's incredibly deep debt. we are spending dollars that we do not have. how much longer can we afford to do this, even though we need it? how much longer can we afford it? >> well, i think it's important that we realize that interest rates are at the lowest they've been in a long time. most of the nation's debt is being bought up by the fed, so it's not like this debt is going to overseas holders. and if we get the money in the pockets of people and they spend it, there is a better chance that we're going to have less unemployment and actually may have more revenue growth so that we don't have further deficit

caused by economic slow down. so most economists that i've studied and others have said this is the time that we should have this spending and that the problem in 2008 was we didn't have enough spending to deal with the economic downturn. >> let's get back to that workers bill of rights. you and senator elizabeth warren have proposed this. give me an example of the one most important item in that bill of rights that you believe could win bipartisan support. there's been a fair amount of bipartisanship in the response to coronavirus thus far. are there any parts of this bill that you think that both sides of the aisle could easily get behind? >> they basically protecting the workers doing the essential work. like many people, i order amazon packages. i'm very glad that we get amazon deliveries at my place. while there are workers who are doing that who are either in the warehouse or driving the trucks and some of them are saying that

they don't have masks. they don't have social distancing. i think we can all agree, if we're benefiting from these workers, that they should at the very least have safety. that she shouldn't be putting themselves or their families at risk. >> the cares act gave a windfall maybe to some of your constituents. the headquarters of apple, intel, the 49ers stadium, the tesla factory. should we expect more such tax cuts in future bills? was that a concession to get the bill passed? >> that should not have been in there. i was opposed to that. obviously it's very hard to vote against the package when the bill also includes increased unemployment insurance and some support for small business. but these bills were not perfect and too much of the money also went to large industries, not enough went to small businesses and the working class. and we need to do more. but i think people have to

remember that speaker pelosi is up against mitch mcconnell and donald crum and she's doing the very best she can under those circumstances. >> i do want to be clear, though, congressman. i don't want to give the implication that your district is all rich people. there's a lot of mixed income in silicon valley. cupertino is pretty flush. but depending where you look in santa clara, in some parts -- if you go just north of say fremont and milpitas, you have a lot of mixed income, some low income, east palo alto looks very different from palo alto. how is your district doing right now? >> i really appreciate your making that point. you are obviously familiar with the community. in fact, a lot of the movement of silicon valley rising for janitors and bus drivers and independent contractors started from my district. yes, we have apple and google and a lot of wealth. but we also have a lot of folks who are independent contractors and workers who aren't being able to afford the rent and who have been struggling frankly for the past decade.

they have been very hard hit and our office is inundated every day with unemployment claims that people need help with, with small businesses that want to get loans. i mean, it's a very tough time for our district. of course, some are doing much better than others, but there are many people who are facing the brunt of this. >> i would love to talk to you another time about that in terms of how we deal with that wild variance in incomes, especially going forward once we start to get the economy back together because you and i both know there are plenty people who drive from the central valley to a train to get to work in santa clara who then have to make another two-hour commute to get back home. but that's a topic for another night. congressman ro khanna of california, congressman, we appreciate your time. thanks very much. >> thank you so much for having me. >> coronavirus infection rates seem to be leveling, if not slowly declining. but another wave of cases could be in the forecast alongside our warmer weather. how can we prevent our summer

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it's devastatingly worrisome to me personally because if they go home and infect their grandmother or their grandfather who has a co-morbid condition and they have a serious or very or unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of our lives. so we need to protect each other at the same time we're voicing our discontent. >> dr. deborah birx clearly did not take the job as coronavirus task force coordinator just to see us ignore the guidance on covering our faces. look across the country and it's easy to see why she's so upset. protesters in california and across the country have been packing streets and beaches and statehouses demanding that our stay-at-home orders end. no social distancing going on there. other crowds like this one in atlanta show that some people are ending these orders

informally with nerry a mask to be found. more than 2 dozen states are relaxing restrictions. they are looking for ways to curb covid-19 through contact tracing. joining us is smeemsnbc medical contributor under president obama, and loren a thorpe from langone health. let me start with you and the article out of north dakota. north dakota is the only state to meet the estimated 30 contact tracers per 100,000 people. okay, you have covid-19. who have you interacted with, let's backtrack and get all those people tested and isolated. but you could fit north dakota's population into manhattan twice. and president trump kind of alluded to that variance in tonight's town hall meeting. here's another clip from tonight's event. >> in some states you can do a lot less than in other states.

and in new york, i think you're going to have to go around with masks for a while. you're going to have to do -- you're going to have to do separation. you're distancing, you're going to have to do that for a while. but some states are doing so well. >> dr. thorpe, how do we make contact tracing work in larger denser cities? >> well, it's helpful to remember that contact tracing is not new. health departments have been doing it for a long time. it has been a main stay of public health intervention in the context of infectious disease control. the reality is it is a really challenging project for a health department to initiate a contact tracing like in covid in urban areas you need a lot of contact tracers. they need to be carefully trained. they need to be very carefully managed. and the communication to the public is a big part of a contact tracing program

especially when it's in -- working with a widespread pandemic such as the coronavirus. so you need all of those things in play. you need well trained contact workers, contact tracers. you need very careful management and you need a very careful communication program. >> worth noting, the state of new york is hiring thousands and thousands of contact tracers as we speak. dr. patel, the trump administration says the u.s. is ready to contain the spread of coronavirus through contact tracing. opinions on that are mixed. what's your assessment of what an effective federal contact tracing program might look like? >> well, it has to be done with kind of in conjunction, joshua, with testing and then a plan for isolation. and then, of course, taking into consideration there's a lot of regional variation in kind of the health care or hospital preparedness. so you've seen states like -- cities like manhattan and states like new york kind of talking about not just looking at the

adequacy of contact tracing, but simultaneously thinking about how ready their health care system would be in case the contact tracing detects a spike and then we actually do need all those hospital beds for various reasons. so i do think, unfortunately, joshua, people are missing a bigger point here. we have such a heterogeneous response to how and when the country is opening. this is a virus that does not know boundaries. something that is very well contained in north dakota, for example, doesn't really matter when we've got strains of the virus that we can see are coming from europe, from asia, and within the united states across state borders. >> dr. thorpe, apple and google have teamed up to produce an app that would help in contact tracing. now, there's been a lot of discussion on privacy, on protection. but we've already handed over oodles of our data by handing over contact tracing with candy

crush. the horse is out of the barn on that one. what is your take on apps for contact tracing? they could help theoretically, right? >> i think apps could be helpful. they can't be the mainstay of a contact tracing program. in order for a contact tracing program to work, you have to engender trust with the people who have the coronavirus who are going to give you very personal information about their contacts. you have to engender trust with the people who are being contacted who have been exposed, and to let them know what they need to do in order to quarantine themselves and stay at home and stay in contact with the health department while they're quarantining in order to know if they become positive and to identify their contacts. an app doesn't really do that. an app doesn't build that trust in the same way that a carefully trained work force can. singapore has used an app. they are the first ones to say that that app was supplementary

to a very, very carefully managed program. even in singapore with very careful -- one program nationally, one app nationally, and a lot of leadership touting for the public to download the app, the uptick of that app has been very low. you would need a high uptick for it to be a mainstay piece of the program. >> last question, dr. patel, and this is admittedly a mean question, but i'm curious how you would answer it. which one do you think we need more urgently, contact tracing or a vaccine? >> there's no doubt that we desperately need a vaccine. it's really only until we have a vaccine and we have herd immunity that we're going to be able to actually, you know, just like we do with influenza, feel like a country we can go back to normal. there is no question in my mind it's a vaccine. >> dr. kavida patel and d

dr. lorna thorpe, touch thank you very much for your time. appreciate it. meat supply on shelves, some process plant employees are getting back to work and wondering how much danger their jobs are putting them in. you'll meet two union presidents working to keep their members safe next. safe next. so you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one. for small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. shop everything home at wayfair.com tide cleaners is offeringe free laundry services you. to the family of frontline responders. visit hope.tidecleaners.com to learn more.

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is limiting purchases of beef, pork and chicken to three items or fewer per member.

it's just one sign of strain as some worry that a meat shortage could be on the horizon. president trump ordered processing plants to stay open under the defense production act. that may put more food on the shelves, but it also puts many workers in a tough spot. >> i understand about us feeding the world and i will feed the world because poultry is everywhere. but when you look at the lack of concern for the workers, where was this president two months ago? how much is a life worth as opposed to beef, pork and chicken? that is a decision that we have to make because that worker makes it every day when they go to work. they look at how much is my life worth today. i'm making $13, $14, $15 an hour. is it worth? >> meatpacking is a key industry at greeley, colorado.

er it more than doubled after it reopened. more than 250 employees tested positive. five workers and a plant worker have died. the smithfield processing plant is planning to partially reopen tomorrow. it became a coronavirus hot spot after more than 800 employees tested positive. joining us now are kim cordova, president of the united food and commercial workers union and cooper carraway president of the sioux falls afl-cio. glad to have you with us. cooper, let me start with you. what condition is the smithfield plant in? granted they're not here to speak for themselves. in your view, will it be ready to partially reopen tomorrow? >> well, we've been very disappointed with the company's response thus far. you know, when they didn't cooperate when the cdc came in and did their investigation after it became the number one hot spot in the country, it

didn't provide the cdc all the information they requested. and now because of donald trump's executive order, they're opening back up prematurely. and so it's an unfortunate and frustrating situation for the workers here. since the management didn't cooperate, now workers are unsure about the type of facility they're going to be reentering. >> smithfield and jbs are welcome to participate in the discussion. that is a standing offer. kim, what is your assessment of the conditions at the jbs plant there? >> the plant reopened on the 24th of april despite the health department's orders to keep that plant closed for full 14 days and to provide testing for all of its workers. so they reopened the plant without testing all of the workers and workers are still very scared. we've had six deaths in the plant. i believe we have the highest

death rate of these packing house facilities. and so, you know, we still have big concerns because there have not been any plant-wide testing. so for workers that are asymptomatic, they have not had an opportunity to test. and the numbers doubled for those that went down and were tested with symptoms. >> now, kooper, some of the plants are the best and only options for good steady work in the towns where they are. greeley is different. it is a gigantic industry there. but in other cities the plant is the primary employer. if a plant opens and its workers have to show up or get fired, what should they do? >> well, number one, they should contact their union. the union is the front line, it's the best way to make sure things are safe or as safe as they can be, as safe as possible. but, you know, we're not resigned to a situation where

workers are going to be faced with their only option being going into an unsafe plant. even though management has not cooperated the way we'd like them to be, even though the president has given his unfortunate authoritarian executive orders, even though we're facing all these different obstacles from our state government and management and everywhere else, the real power comes from the workers themselves standing together in solidarity and that's what the union is for. so we're going to keep fighting and doing everything we can to keep these workers safe and make it as safe as possible in the plant. >> kim, actually, first of all, kim, do you have any sense of how many workers at meat processing plants are unionized versus those who aren't? are most of them unionized? few of them unionized? >> the united food and commercial workers, we represent around 250,000 food processing and packing houseworkers.

they are covered under labor agreements, but there are some that don't have representation. >> kim, i'm sure a lot of people empathize with these workers. we're all trying to feed our families as consumers. to folks who want this to get resolved so we can get back to normal and restock the shelves, kim, what would you say to them? >> first of all, you can accomplish both. you can have the food supply chain continue to go and workers can continue to process meat if you put in safety measures and enforceable laws, guidelines that protect these workers. they are the critical part of the food supply chain. we need the highest level of personal protective equipment like respirators and we need the p.p.e. from the federal stockpile. we need daily priority testing for these workers. we also need to stop the work while sick culture by providing paid sick leave and paid family

leave for these workers. we need not only enforceable cdc and osha regulations laws, but we need federal and state inspectors in those processing plants to regulate and to make sure that they enforce these safety rules, and making sure these workers have safe. you could do both, but trump's -- president trump's order just puts workers' lives and their families at risk. >> briefly before i let you go, kooper, what do you see being done to help keep workers safer in these plants, briefly? >> i think that you'll see a rash of unionization across the country. i think plants that weren't union before, you'll very likely see union drives because workers all over the country are recognizing that organizing themselves into a union is their best bet for creating a safe and beneficial working environment. >> and kim, what about you, do you see these companies doing anything now to keep these workers safe, before we go?

>> i think unfortunately with the president's orders and him taking the liability aspect out of these -- from these companies, i think that these companies may find it easier to lax on safety. and so i do think that there's going to be more harm to these front-line workers. workers are going to have to make a decision between financial devastation or their lives. and so we hope by bringing awareness to this that the public and the consumer supports safety of all workers and really push our government to put enforceable laws in place to protect not only our workers, but our food supply chain. >> kim cordova of the united food producers union and kooper, thank you for making time for us. americans are losing jobs. what should we do? do?

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this week the latest jobs report will give us a clearer picture of how hard this economic shutdown is hitting us. the most recent weekly numbers from the labor department show another recent number from the labor department show an additional 3.8 million americans filed for unemployment. 30 million more americaned filed since the lockdowns began in mid might have march. how badly have we been hit and how will we rebuild? let's discuss it. chris lou, what do you expect to see in the weeks and months month come regarding unemployment, wages, gdp, so on? >> joshua, what we've seen so far right now is an economy in a serious downturn. i think we're going to see that

continue beginning with these unemployment numbers on friday. the problem is this, and the economy right now in most of the major metropolitan areas is essentially shut down right now. we're in a public health crisis. until we resolve this public health crisis, we really can't begin to think about reopening the economy with any much significance. so i think it's incumbent upon congress and the president to continue to provide financial relief, not only to small businesses, but to workers as well, until we get past this public health crisis. >> with regards to that financial relief, the president's top economic advisers are saying we might need more, but we might not. here's what larry kudlow, head of the national economic council, had to say about that today. >> there may well be additional legislation. there's kind of a pause period right now. we put up $3 trillion of direct federal budget assistance in one way or the other. the federal reserve has put in

as much as $4 trillion, $6 trillion. so it's a huge, huge package. let's see how it's doing as we gradually reopen the economy. >> chris, what do you think about another round of stimulus? >> i think we're going on need it. we already know that this latest round of small business loans will be tapped out relatively quickly. the enhanced unemployment benefits that were provided recently expire at the end of july. we're going to be dealing with this financial, this economic downturn, for the rest of the year if not into next year as well. the problem is when the economy reopens, it's not going to be like flipping on a light switch and everything's back to normal. right now we already see a lot of the restrictions that are being put on restaurants and retail so that they can only have say 25% occupancy or restrictions in how close tables can be together. a lot of restaurants are going to find, we just can't operate under those conditions, and they're going to remain closed. >> on top of that, even some of

the money that's been allocated so far, we've heard a lot about how a number of small businesses just couldn't get their foot in the door to get some of those loans because larger institutions got ahead of them. and we've also learned that minority-owned businesses have fared much worse in applying for some of these owns than businesses owned by whites. even if we apportion more money, we might want to apportion it differently next time. >> it's one of the reasons why us democrats fought so hard to have money go to community banks that would serve underserved areas. 200 to 300 businesses that were publicly traded, including companies that have paid executives millions in compensation, were first in line to get these kinds of benefits. and that's wrong. those are not the people that are having a hard time finding money right now, those are not the people that are the drivers of this economy. so you're 100% right that even as we put more money out the

door, we need to ensure it goes to the hardest-hit mom and pop delis and dry cleaners and restaurants along the way. the ones that really are already operating under a very slim profit margin and really just can't survive much longer at this point. >> is there any light at the end of this tunnel? because things look pretty bad right now. and i don't know about you, but i know plenty of people who are having coronavirus economy, world is falling off a cliff nightmares every night since this thing started. please give us something to lay our heads on, to rest easy tonight. is there anything that gives you hope that all of this is going to work out okay? or does it all look bad? >> look, as i said, this is a public health crisis. ultimately you have to deal with a public health crisis before the economy can start up again. but ultimately the u.s. economy is about consumer confidence. u.s. consumers make up 70% of the u.s. economy. and even if you suddenly reopen everything right now, and people

aren't comfortable going to restaurants and movie theaters and baseball games. they're not going to spend money. the u.s. economy is not going to get up and running. so we need to get our arms around this public health crisis, we need to have the widespread testing that all experts have talked about and companies can reopen. ultimately it's the health and the science that have to precede the economic relief. >> before i let you go, debate over giving cities and states more funding, the trump administration and some republicans have pushed back against that. in the last few seconds, where do you see that going, if anywhere? >> it has to happen. new york running a $15 billion defic deficit, that's going to lead to layoffs of teachers and firefighters and police, people on the front lines dealing with this pandemic. we need to help those people and those state and local governments out. >> that's former deputy labor

secretary chris liu now with the university of virginia's miller center. we appreciate you making time and hopefully giving us something a little more positive to rest our heads tonight, thanks very much. and thank you for making time for us on msnbc. always appreciate spending time with you. until we gmeet again, i'm joshu johnson. stay safe and stay sharp, we'll get through this. good night. learn more at libertymutual.com/covid-19. [ piano playing ] there areand the best.s... which egg tastes more farm-fresh and delicious? only eggland's best. with more vitamins d and e and 25% less saturated fat? only eggland's best. better taste, better nutrition, better eggs.

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this sunday, reopening america. >> americans are looking forward to the safe and rapid reopening of our country. >> primp ending the social distancing guidelines. >> they'll be fading out because now the governors are doing it. >> americans desperate to get back to work. >> nobody's made any money for two months, so they need to get in here and make money. >> many urging caution. >> and hopefully everyone does it according to the guidelines for opening america again. >> when we take a step forward, we don't want to take two steps back. >> health directors from two states taking different approaches to reopening. new hope for a covid