this sunday, reopening america. >> americans are looking forward to the safe and rapid reopening of our country. >> primp ending the social distancing guidelines. >> they'll be fading out because now the governors are doing it. >> americans desperate to get back to work. >> nobody's made any money for two months, so they need to get in here and make money. >> many urging caution. >> and hopefully everyone does it according to the guidelines for opening america again. >> when we take a step forward, we don't want to take two steps back. >> health directors from two states taking different approaches to reopening. new hope for a covid-19 treatment.

>> the data shows that remdesivir has a clear-cut, significant, positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery. >> how long until we have a treatment or a vaccine? i'll talk to sir john bell from oxford university where a promising vaccine study is well under way. also, declaring victory? >> i think when you ask, how did we do? i think we did a spectacular job. >> with more than 60,000 dead and 30 million out of work, is the trump administration risking its own "mission accomplished" moment? pole vault. joe biden takes the lead in battleground states. now calls growing for a fuller investigation of charges by his accuser tara reade. insight and analysis by kasie hunt. former congressional budget director douglas holtz-eakin. dr. that henahid bahelia.

it's "meet the press" and our continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. january 6th the cdc first issued a travel notice for wuhan, china. consider what has happened since. 1.1 million confirmed cases of covid-19 diagnosed in the u.s. 66,000 americans have died. the american economy shrunk by nearly 5% in the first quarter with the worst yet to come. 30 million americans have filed for unemployment in the past six weeks. those are the sobering numbers. but this has not been like other crises. think 9/11, oklahoma city, the "challenger" accident. instead of being united in grief, america is divided by politics. we see it in the anti-social distancing protests and states extending stay-at-home guidelines. we see it in a gallup poll that finds 44% of republicans would

be willing to return so normal activities right now if there were no restrictions at all. only 4% of democrats say the same thing. we see it in vice president pence not wearing a face mask in the mayo clinic, where it's a rule. ordering red-branded trump face masks for supporters. it prompted a statement yesterday from former president george w. bush. we are human beings, equally vulnerable and equally wonderful in the sight of god, he said. there have been acts of kindness, generosity and heroism, especially from health care workers. but much of that good news is obscured by partisan debate over when and how to reopen this country. >> we'll open safely and quickly, i hope. >> the president pressing states to end stay-at-home orders. by tomorrow 33 states will have

begun the process of at least partial reopening after federal social distancing guidelines expir expired. >> mother's day is coming up. mama told you to wash your hands, cover your nose and mouth if you cough. do those things and use common sense and we'll be fine. >> they acted like this was lollapalooza on the beach. has there been some type of major outbreak? no. >> michigan, armed demonstrators storm the capitol. >> swastikas, confederate flags, nooses, automatic rifles do not represent who we are as mish banders. nothing i want more than to flip a switch and return to normal but that's not how it's going to work, unfortunately. >> somebody came out with a

report saying 5 million. i think that was from the harvard report. but we are going to be there at a certain point. >> even so the president and his political aides are trying to recast the federal response to the pandemic as a success story. >> we did all the right moves. spectacular job. saved thousands and thousands of lives. >> the federal government rose to the challenge and this is a great success story. >> the language is nothing new. for months as the death toll has risen, the president has declared in some form or another mission accomplished. >> when you have 15 people and the 15 within a couple of days is close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done. we near the end of our historic battle with the invisible everyonemy wide receiver we begin the next front in the war, opening up america again. >> late february you predicted the number of cases accompanying down to zero.

how did we get super zero to 1 million? >> it will go down to zero ultimately. >> the president's health experts warn against reopening too quickly. >> you can't just leaper on things and get into a situation where you're tempting a rebound. >> the white house presenting a rosier timeline. >> early summer we could be in a much better place. >> may is the transition month. >> by june a lot of the country should be back to normal. >> dr. tom engelsby, welcome to "meet the press." simple question. 33 states are doing this. 18 states have hit their one-day case total high of the 33 in two weeks. technically not meeting phase one metrics. are we ready to be doing this as

a country? >> i think we need to be going forward very cautiously. if you look at the overall country numbers, we're about 200,000 new cases a week at this point. in the last month 60,000 deaths. most of the illness and death has occurred over the last 30 days. overall, we have a long way to go. but a small minority of states are beginning to get closer to the white house metrics of two weeks' decline. and so in those places, if they have other capabilities in place, if they're able to really rapidly isolate and trace the contacts of patients with covid, if they're able to diagnose very widely everybody lot got symptoms, not just the sick people but everybody, those states will be the places we'd be less risky to reopen.

>> how much of this is guesswork because of our lack of surveillance capabilities when it comes to where the virus is in many of these places? >> i think there still is a lot of uncertainty. but there is a range of diagnostic testing capability across the country. you can tell that in the percent of persons who are in some states they're testing so many people, the people of percent who are positive is very low, that's a good number. other places the percent of people testing is very high. that's worrisome. it depends on where you are in terms of access to testing, the operations around testing, it's a patchwork across the country. >> is there a way -- when were you going to know whether this is a mistake or not?

>> it's going to take two to three weeks to begin to see trends that come out of the changes in social distancing. so measures taken this morning, you probably won't see a change in hospitalization rates or icu capacity until two or three weeks from now. so that's the nature of the disease. it's going to take a little time for things to get into the system. >> what is something state health officials don't have access to data-wise that you wish they did before making these decisions? >> in the coming weeks we need to get a better handle on the number of mild and moderate cases of disease we have. the good news is many, many people do not get seriously ill with this disease.

the bad news is we're not capturing those people in terms of numbers for the country. if we don't know who they are, we can't break their chains of transmission, by can't isolate them, we can't quarantine their contacts. we need to know more about the mild and moderate illnesses in the country, and that will come with diagnostic testing. >> somebody wrote about the cdc, i think a colleague of yours at -- excuse me, at harvard. it was the odd lacking of missing go ahead that the cdc normally tracks. he said if you wanted to find out how many people had tuberculosis in the country in the last year, ask the cdc. health care hoeshted infections, ask the cdc. ask how many covid tests have been done, cdc doesn't have any answer. the thunder of people hospitalized, cdc isn't tracking it. want to know if social distancing isn't making a difference, cdc doesn't know. what is going on?

are we missing a huge component of our public health response? >> i think we do need more data. i agree with the need for the data outlined there. i think we're tracking differently. we haven't had this urgent need to understand hospitalizations day to day, week to week as we've had for other things we've confronted before. we need to get better as a country. we need to get our -- if you look at state health department data, some states are not reporting hospitalization go ahead. i think we all need to get better. some states have more data available than others but we should all be rising. >> real stick timeline, three months, six months, people are concerned about the fall. how concerned are you? is there any way of avoid iing

bad fall outcome without advancements in treatment or a vaccine? >> well, before the fall, i am worried we'll have small waves in places around the country in the coming months. hopefully we won't. but as we begin to ease social distancing in various places in the country, this virus is highly transmissible. nothing has changed in the underlying dynam ins of this virus. if we stop social distancing altogether tomorrow, we would recreate the conditions that existed in the country in february, march. we need to continue, to our best possible effort, all the individual efforts we're making around social distancing. staying six feet apart, wearing masks in public, avoiding large gatherings. to the extent we're able to do that the next couple of months will dictate as we do as states and a country. in the fall we have an additional challenge, influenza that will reappear. the flu season will start.

and at that point covid will be mixed with flu. and we'll both be contributing to hospitalizations and icu beds. so we're going to have two concurrent large public health challenges at the same time. so i am worried about the uptake in hospitalization rate and more people needing intensive care in the fall. but i'm still -- i don't think people should think that there will be a lull, that just because the summer's coming we're going to have a lull before the fall. it would be wonderful if that happens but i don't think we should at all assume that at this point. >> i'm going to leave it there. don't call it a lull, it is unlikely we're going to have a lull in the summer. dr. inglesby, thanks for starting us off with your expertise, much appreciate it. joining me now are two state officials central to making decisions about whether, when, and how their states should reopen.

dr. scott harris, alabama department of public health. dr. janay calhoun, chief director of health for michigan department of health and human services. dr. harris, alabama is opening more than michigan, although compared to southern neighbors i would argue you're being a bit more cautious than others. tell me the metrics you used to gave you the confidence to advise the governor at beginning phased-in reopenings. >> we have followed metrics, like i think most states, including the white house plan for reopening, the criteria i'm sure you've talked about on this show, were part of the things we considered. we have not satisfied all

criteria but we felt good about hospital capacity. we did not proceed to a full phase one reopening. entertainment venues, gyms, in-person dining, we have not chosen to do that so far. we think this is a gradual first step. >> what data are you missing, dr. harris that you wish you had, whether capacity or other? >> there are a number of things. we'd like to make sure we're testing to the level we would like. we probably have a total amount of laboratory bench capacity to do the number of tests, but those tests are unevenly distributed throughout the state. if you're in a more urbanized part of the state, jefferson county, madison county, you can

probably get really good access to testing whenever you like. in more rural parts of the state, we are able to get testing done but there are barriers for people to obtain that, particularly if they have to find transportation or do not have ready access to a health care provider. we've been surprised we have not necessarily gotten negative test results reported to us. it's hard to come up with a good denominator so we know the percent of positive tests we have. we've reached ought to all the labs but many of them are out of state and it's difficult to get all that information. >> dr. calhoun, let me ask the question slightly different. what are you seeing in your state that makes you uncomfortable advising the governor to begin even a partial reopening? >> here in the state of michigan we have over 43,000 cases and over 4,000 deaths. we're third in the country when it comes to states with the

number of deaths. we'll we've seen significant im. pros, our hospitals were over capaci capacity, particularly in the southeast area of the state, several weeks ago. parts of the state are seeing an increase in the rate of rise of cases and we know their hospital capacity is not what it should be. we have to get our testing up as i know people across the country are working on. while we are cautiously optimistic, we still need to be very careful. >> what do you say to those in the state who are going, you know what, yeah, southeast michigan is being hit hard. are you not comfortable having sort of a let's isolate parts of the state, tougher stay-at-home measures for southeast michigan, let's loosen things up in more rural parts of the state? why are you not there yet? >> so we actually look at this data on a daily basis regionally. so again, wee still seeing, for example, on the western side of the state, that there are actually increases in the rate of rise of cases.

we have several outbreaks there. we also know, again, in some of our rural areas, the number of hospital beds is actually not what it should be. many of our hospitals in our rural areas are actually at capacity. so every part of the state is different. even in southeast, quite frankly, even though we're seeing a decrease in the rate of rise, we're still seeing many cases and many deaths every day. we're going to be working on loosening or dialing up as far as how we're reopening the economy. the governor has actually already started that but we have to do it in an incremental data-driven approach. >> i got to imagine both of you are feeling pressure, whether it's pressure from friends and family tired of the quarantine, pressure from friends of yours who maybe run businesses, or full-on political pressure. dr. khaldun, let me start with you. how have you handled it, and have you been getting -- how have you handled the public blowback, and how do you strike the balance in your own head where you feel you're giving full-on medical advice versus

let me give you the best medical advice i can for the policy you want to implement? >> this is not personal. people hire me to give medical and public health advice, and that is what i do. i talk to the governor and other folks in the governor's office on a regular basis to tell them the facts. these are the number of tests we're currently doing. this is where we want to be. this is what's going on with our hospitals. again, if we don't do well with these social distancing measures, more people will die, and that is just the facts. >> dr. harris, how have you -- how much have you felt that pressure? >> i mean, obviously, it's significant, as you know. there are many alabamans that just don't have the option of making a living under certain health orders. we have to find a way to strike the right balance there. i think our governor has done a great job of trying to balance the health of the economy with the health of average alabamans. my job in public health is to

give her the best health information i can. we present the data on just as dr. khaldun said, on how many cases we have and what our deaths look like. i think alabama has been a little bit different. you know, every state is different, and there are 51 different plans for reopening, i guess, because we're all trying to look at the data and make our own decisions with the best information we have about how to proceed. but there are people who are certainly -- want to maintain their livelihoods, their businesses, and we have to balance that with keeping everyone safe and healthy as much as possible. >> dr. harris, are you concerned that georgia has been more aggressive, and for instance, senator doug jones in alabama has encouraged alabamans to be careful traveling to georgia. >> it's obviously, we look at that very closely. you know, there are certainly some good aspects about having every state having its own plan because every state is a little different, but clearly, all states affect the others. so we're watching that very

carefully. you know, what we have done in alabama, i think, is, again, have the sort of measured approach. and i think what i have heard many states say, and what our governor has certainly said, is that these aren't steps forward that are just going to ratchet forward and can never come back. these are gradual steps. and we certainly, you know, will consider dialing things back if we see an increase in cases. so i think that's the approach that probably all states would want to take. we see where we are after changes are made, and then make changes if necessary. >> dr. khaldun in michigan. dr. harris in alabama. thank you both for sharing your expertise and sort of the regional observations that you both can share with the country. good luck and stay healthy out there. >> thank you. when we come back, the race for a coronavirus vaccine. i'm going to talk to a professor of medicine at oxford university in the uk, where they have gotten a head start in testing a

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welcome back welcome back. the race for a coronavirus vaccine is on. and nowhere is there more optimism or perhaps progress than at oxford university. they're testing a vaccine that has shown success in rhesus monkeys. what's more, they're ahead of competitors because earlier testing of the vaccine for other viruses has shown it to be safe in people, so human testing can begin much sooner. joining me now is sir john bell, the regius professor of medicine at oxford university and he's going to tell us more about this. welcome to "meet the press," sir bell. let me start with this question. one of your colleagues used the percentage of 80% chance that this vaccine is at least somewhat successful in the next year.

are you that optimistic? and are you at all concerned our optimism around the world for what you guys are doing has gotten a bit overexuberant? >> yeah, so obviously, people who have dedicated their careers to this kind of a problem have a tendency to get excited about the prospects because the prospects are pretty good. i certainly wouldn't put the possibility at 80%. that's a pretty big number. but we're gradually reeling it in bit by bit, and as every day goes by, the likelihood of success goes up. >> you're in the midst of you want to start some human trials. one of your potential hurdles is the lack of outbreaks, right? in order to do this, you need to try your next set of trials. do you know when you're going to be able to do this? and where are you looking? are you looking at places like india? where are you looking to do these trials?

>> so, we have still got lots of disease in the uk. we probably have something in the order of 15,000 to 20,000 transmissions a day in the uk, so there's no shortage of disease here. and we'll push -- we have already started clinical trials, so we have already given the vaccine to about 1,000 people. and we're going to grow that pretty rapidly. we have consolidated the phase one and two programs because we are pretty confident that the vector itself is safe, because it's been used in about 5,000 people already up to now. so that's allowed us to really accelerate the phase one program, and we hope that there would be enough disease that we would get evidence that the vaccine has efficacy by the beginning of june. >> what's the likelihood that if this fails as a vaccine, there will be something that is usable

as a therapeutic? and i'm just wondering, in the reverse, as we hear good news about, for instance, remdesivir, on its ability as a therapeutic, how helpful is that in the development of the vaccine? >> so probably it's helpful for sure, it's probably not helpful in the development of the vaccine. i don't think it really -- it works by a completely different mechanism. it works on -- >> gotcha. >> on the rna preliminaries which is completely different replication mechanism in the virus. we're stimulating the immune response to the virus, which is at the other end of the therapeutic options that we've got. so the two are probably not connected. but both could be helpful steps to try to get the virus under control. >> there's been some concern that you guys are going too fast, that -- and it's not just you. it's all of the labs that are

attempting to get a vaccine. that there's such pressure coming from national governments that some safety protocols will be overlooked. i'm sure you, like others, are claiming you're meeting all the protocols, but there has to be some concern that the pressure is going to create gaps on this. what are you doing to try to prevent that? >> yeah, so you're absolutely right. it's a big issue for us, is trying to be sure that we do this quickly, but we don't miss out any of the key safety steps. i think we've got reason to believe that the efficacy, the efficacy of the vaccine in terms of generating strong antibody responses, is probably going to be okay. the real question is whether the safety profile is going to be fine. so that's actually the main focus of the clinical studies. we did all of the preclinical work you would expect anybody to do, and although some companies have left out, for example, primate studies, they haven't

done as many preclinical studies as we have, we did all of them. we did mouse, ferret, primate. we wanted to get a good read on what's going on. and now we're being very careful in the clinic to try to monitor exactly what's happening. but you know, that doesn't mean there won't be safety signals because there may well be, and we'll be on alert to see if we can see them. >> when is the next time you will find out if this is not going to work? you know, there's these different moments where you'll find out, oh, we can go to a next step. when will you know if this isn't going to be a successful vaccine effort? >> yeah, so i think there will be primate data released this week. that will be an important milestone. and then we'll have to wait until there's enough incident disease in the phase two cohort, which has been vaccinated now to see whether we have largely

eliminated the disease in those vaccinated with this vaccine as opposed to the placebo. that's really the test. that's what we'll probably get a signal based on current levels of the disease, we'll probably get a signal in early june. we're ready to move trials overseas if the disease peters out in the uk, so we have sites already in play in other bits of the world where it's active. we're pretty sure we'll get a signal by june about whether this works or not. >> and finally, do you have a sense of if this will be a one-time vaccine or something closer to the flu where perhaps we have to have a different vaccine due to a mutation every year? >> yeah, so coronavirus doesn't mutate at the pace of flu. as far as we can see. but it's also quite a tricky virus in terms of generating longstanding immune responses to it. and as a result, i suspect we may need to have relatively

regular vaccinations against coronavirus going into the future. that, of course, remains to be seen, but that's my bet at the moment, this is likely to be a seasonal coronavirus vaccine. >> sir john bell at oxford, the whole world is rooting for you. thanks for coming on. >> thanks so much. take care. finding a vaccine is one thing, fixing our economy is another gargantuan challenge. the panel is next. as we go to break, look up in the sky. it's the navy's blue angels and the air force's thunderbirds flying around the country in honor of the nation's health care workers. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else.

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welcome back. the panel is with us from their remote locations. nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt. former congressional budget director and current president of the american action forum, douglas holtz-eakin, and infectious disease physician dr. nahid bhadelia. boston university. doug, i want to start with you. we've done a lot on the vaccine, we've done a lot on the reopening. on the health aspect of things. but let's talk about the economy. just give us your big picture sense. you hear about 2008, you hear about the great depression. how would you describe where we're at right now, and where you think we're realistically headed? >> well, chuck, we had some

horrific economic data. we saw the largest one-month decline in consumer confidence, the largest one-month decline in consumer spending. we had 30 million people apply for unemployment insurance in the past six weeks. i think it's fair to expect that over the months of april, may, and june, we'll see national income decline by 10%. the worst year in the great depression was 12%. we're going to experience that this spring. >> do you think, doug, i want to stick with you for a minute. do you think the ideas that have been percolating in congress left and right in general have been meeting the moment or do you feel as if in some ways members of congress haven't fully grasped how big and how gargantuan this is? >> i think congress deserves credit for moving quickly, moving dramatically. if you think about what's going on, we're losing 10% of national income. the so-called c.a.r.e.s. act borrowed 10% of national income

and is trying to distribute it to americans in the form of unemployment insurance, loans to businesses, grants to businesses, checks. that's, however, just a band-aid. the real work has to be to get the economy to stop falling. we cannot do that continuously, we're going to have to get the economy moving again. and there you're at this tough intersection of the public health mission, which is the primary objective, also the most important economic policy. >> right, and dr. bhadelia, i think this is the challenge i feel like you in the public health community and health officials in general, there is life and livelihood, and that balance. and what do you fear from that pressure public health officials are going to be feeling about reopening the economy, what do you fear that's going to lead to? >> chuck, you heard tom inglesby talk about the fact the conditions haven't changed from when we put the lockdown into place, which means reopening is this balance of restarting the economy against acceptance of the risk that we will get more infections.

and of course, those infections will result in hospitalizations and deaths. when you look at the preparedness of the states, it's kind of a patchwork. so the capacity, the poor capacities in certain terms of testing, dr. inglesby mentioned the fact of how many people you test, and w.h.o. says if you're testing to a point where more than 10% of the people you're testing are still coming back positive, you're not testing enough. of the 33 states, 12 of them have rates above 10%. when you look at icu capacity, of those 33 states, eight of them have already hit their head room for icu capacity. when you talk about contact tracing, there's a hopkins study that says we need 100,000 contact tracers and npr did a study of all of the states, 41 states responded and said we have about 7,600 contact tracers and we're looking to hire 36,000 more. we're not there in terms of capacity or it's a patchwork where some states are potentially doing it better than others. so my fear as it is with a lot of public health folks is

ensuring that states meet those capacities before they take the risk of putting particularly the vulnerable among our communities at risk. so nursing homes, prisons, minority communities. >> let me ask you the question this way. over the last two months, in the medical community, what -- have we learned enough and with the news on remdesivir, how much now -- how much capacity has that bought us? how much of an ability that we know there is some best practices that can lessen the time in the hospital or lessen the mortality rate? how comfortable are you getting that we're there where that can allow us to have some more reopenings? >> we're definitely in a better place than we were in some ways. so one part is our testing capacity is better. if you look at the numbers, about a month ago, we were testing ten people, you know, eight to ten people per 1,000, and we're now testing 18 to 19, so that's better.

remdesivir is promising in the fact that it provides you with the proof of concept as dr. fauci said that drugs like it or in itself could help reduce mortality, but we still need a whole other range of drugs such as we need medications that if you're exposed potentially, it keeps you from getting sick. something called post-exposure prophylaxis. and then from what we know about this disease, you know, we're learning that it's basically making the body attack, uses the body's immune system to basically attack itself. the virus wreaks havoc. then the rest of the stuff that happens to the body is the attack you're doing on itself. and a lot of drugs are still in the works, haven't shown -- are starting to show some promise, but we don't have a slam dunk in helping with that aspect of the disease yet. >> let me move to the politics. kasie hunt, we're going to get in front of the split screen, the senate is coming back, the house isn't. the senate is saying, well, look, we have to tough it out, essentially. the house is saying it's not

safe. it's the divide we're seeing in america in some ways between left and right. >> and chuck, you're even seeing it in who is deciding to wear masks when they come up to capitol hill and who isn't. and you know, this is emerging as the kind of partisan divide that i think if you listen to the experts like those that we have just been talking to, you know, if americans are not all on the same page about engaging in the public health protection measures, it gets a lot harder to get to the point where you can feel confident in reopening, that everybody will remain healthy. and the longer that this goes on and the sharper those divisions become, the harder the overall mission is. and you know, don't forget, every month that goes by, we're a month closer to a presidential election. and that's going to influence so much of this conversation as well. >> i'm curious, kasie, the whole

testing weirdness of the senate. the president said, oh, use this quick testing feature we have been using at the white house, and then mcconnell and pelosi decided not to accept it. what is going on there? >> they don't think that they should be seen having access to things that regular, everyday americans don't have access to. and in that way, the imperative is a little different. my question is, if they do bring the house back, it's different from the senate in that it's 435 people. they are scattered across all corners of this country, all coming back. the risk is very high. will those rank and file members say, this is something that we need in order to be able to function? pelosi and mcconnell are relatively old school in their thinking about things like this. i mean, there was a lot of reluctance in the beginning to even close tours at the capitol, and nancy pelosi was saying, we're the captains of the ship. we are the last to leave. at the end of the day, concerns among her members pushed her to change course on that.

>> all right. douglas holtz-eakins with the economy, nahid bhadelia, and kasie hunt on politics. thank you all. kasie, you're going to stick around for more political talk. when we come back, how attitudes about the pandemic have changed over the last seven weeks. technologies advisor. me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you. standing by you every step of the way. bye bye. don't bring that mess around here, evan! whoo! don't do it. don't you dare. i don't think so! [ sighs ] it's okay, big fella. we're gonna get through this together. [ baseball bat cracks ] nice rip, robbie.

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welcome back. data download time. as some states begin to reopen, many americans are trying to adapt to this new normal.

a survey by a leading insights survey company has been asking if americans feel the worst of the pandemic is behind us or is yet to come. in week one, which was the week starting on march 15th, only 7% of registered voters said the worst was behind us. by week four, beginning april 5th, that number only rose to 11% who felt that way. by week seven, beginning on april 26th, 29%, four times the original number, did believe the worst of this virus is behind us. in week one, more than a third of americans said they were very concerned about their family's financial stability. by week four, that had slipped slightly down, and is now down to 27% as states begin to reopen some businesses. while americans are feeling slightly better about their physical and financial health they're also increasingly resigned to the fact this is not ending any time soon. on week one, only a quarter said they expect the pandemic to last six month or more. that ticked up 11 points by week four.

and now, a majority, 56%, believe the pandemic will last six months or more. which is probably why when asked about a return to some precovid-19 activities, many say they'll move slowly. in some cases, very slowly. more than 60% of americans who fly regularly said this week that they would wait at least four months before flying again. and 42% of regular air travelers said they would wait even longer, seven months or more. nearly half of those surveyed remain concerned about their health. overall, most americans seem to agree that coronavirus is difficult to manage, it's causing pain, and it's not going away any time soon. when we come back, we're going to turn to politics. joe biden has denied the allegations made by tara reade. has he said enough? that's next. which is why when it comes to his dentures only new poligrip cushion and comfort will do. the first and only formula with adaptagrip cushioning technology. choose new poligrip cushion and comfort.

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welcome back. kasie hunt is still can us and joining us is amy walter, national ed tore of the cook political report. all righty. let me play one of the bites from joe biden's interview on "morning joe" from friday. here it is. >> could you please go on the record with the american people, did you sexual lly assault tara reade? >> no, it is not true. i'm saying unequivocally, it never, never happened. and it didn't. it never happened. >> amy walter, "the new york times" is not satisfied with the vice president's answer. in fact, they write, "mr. biden's word is insufficient to

dispel the cloud. any inventory should be strictly limited to information by ms. reade and conducted by an apolitical panel put together by the dnc and foster as much trust in its findings as possible." so, amy walter, how much appetite is there in the democratic party? to do something as extensive as "the new york times" is outlining? >> yeah, not much, chuck. and i think for a lot of republicans and conservatives the idea the dnc is going to put together an unbiased panel to look through the documents of joe biden is kind of stretching it. look, chuck, we are in the place where we've been for so much of these last couple years in light of the me too movement, the fight over who to believe, but the fight over hypocrisy, where a lot of the debate is being center on. joe biden, a lot of democrats, who held one standard for folks

like brett kavanaugh and seem to be holding a different standard for joe bidebiden. this, chuck, reminds me of the battle we saw in 2016 and, quite frankly, we still see today with evangelicals and their fort spr donald trump. right? how can you support this person who's going against the standards you set for somebody else? and at the end of the day, this is what voters are left with. not so much who they believe or don't believe, but how they battle this cognitive dissidence. usually partisanship is what breaks the tie. >> now, kasie, social media, basically it's the hypocrisy of the defenders of the party of bill clinton and defenders of the party of donald trump, that's what every social media debate is in, some kindi of wha aboutism on those two. >> to amy's points b republicans are focusing on how brett kavanaugh was handled and how the media handled brett kavanaugh, how democrats talked about brett kavanaugh. they're not talking about donald trump because the reality is that they can't.

because the list of accusers that this president has is very long and, you know, each individual accusation has a different set of facts. a different set of claims. in the case of joe biden, there is one and that claim is now being explored and they are having to grapple with it, but you're right that, you know, this debate has become very muddled and die involve edie di issues back and forth. at the end of the day, care about women, harassment, changing that culture, at the end of the day this is going to be a choice between joe biden and dronald trump. there are two different sets of facts there and voters with ill be able to make up their own minds about that. >> kasie, think without the piece of paper showing up, but i am curious, how many democrats on capitol hill are empathetic, do you think, quietly, are quietly empathetic with the call by "the new york times" for some formal investigation?

>> chuck, i don't know that there's a huge appetite for that. i think, you know, when you talk about shifting the debate into a different sphere, the email question around hillary clinton is the first memory democrats have and i think behind the scenes the biden campaign is very much trying to focus on insisting they're not going to bet into a situation where it's "but her emails" but i do think democrats want this campaign to be as clean and straightforward as possible. and to the extent that there are questions about transparency, that's going to be a problem for every democrat and particularly women democrats. they have been the ones who have had to answer questions about this accusation. >> right. >> nancy pelosi has defended joe biden. kirsten gillibrand as well. so the easier that the biden campaign can make them in terms of answering our questions in hallways, the happier democrats are going to be. >> so as difficult as, perhaps, friday and thewalter, if

you just looked at the polls, the last two weeks in particular, whether a battleground state or quasi battleground state, doesn't matter if it's a national poll, state poll. biden is ahead or on the move everywhere. how much of it do you attribute to just the pandemic and donald trump? and how much of this is democratic rallying around -- democrats rallying a bit around biden? >> yeah. it seems more like the former, chuck, that this is as much about donald trump as anything else. i mean, what you noticed over this last couple of weeks is that, you know, voters are expecting their political leaders to meet the moment. a lot of governors have. you're saying their approval rating is up in the 70s in some cases. close to 80%. donald trump's are back where they've always been because he met this moment in the same way he meets every moment. it's polarizing. it's divisive. and it's putting people back into their political camps. the one thing i will note, though, chuck, as strong as joe

biden is looking in those states and national polls, what you also see is that president trump hasn't cratered. and his overall vote share, if you look at the matchup between joe biden and donald trump, doesn't match his approval rating in a lot of these state. in other words, he still has room to grow in these states. there's a group of people who say i like the job the president's doing, i'm not ready to say i'm going to vote for them. it's easier for trump to get those people back. they haven't defected, at least not yet, to joe biden. >> a reminder, amy, something we talked about yesterday, he's still in his range. his trading range. he may be at the low end of his trading range, but he's still sitting in his range and we know what that means. anyway, kasie hunt, amy walter, thank you. that's all we have for today. thank you for watching. thank you for trusting us here at nbc. stay safe. be well. practice social distancing. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

happy to have you with us. so if you've been watching the show for the past few weeks you know we've been trying to stay in touch with front line health providers throughout this crisis. i think that's sort of now a no brainer. they ought to be at the center of our understanding. of what's really grasping the country right now. what we're going through. what it means to have over a million coronavirus cases and climbing. what it means to have had over 60,000 americans die from this just in a matter of weeks. with that number still just climbing relentlessly. the president's son-in-law who's a senior white house adviser with no fixed responsibilities, jared kushner just went on tv and called the american coronavirus catastrophe a,

quote, great success story for the trump administration. it is not, obviously. with the hugest outbreak on earth even though we had the luxury of weeks, months of warning that it was coming with now more americans dead in less than two months that the died in all the years of the vietnam r war, it is not a great success story for america. it is certainly not a great success story for an administration that has not been leading a response. we noticed the pattern, steered clear of the happy talk wei weirdness. instead, we tried to focus almost on daily basis on american doctors and nurses and health providers in the middle of it risking their lives to keep the rest of us alive. they, of course, are also the ones who pay most acutely for any decisions that we in our government make in terms of accelerating the spread of the virus again by stopping the

stay-at-home orders and re-opening nonessential businesses. we don't have a vaccine for this. we don't have a treatment for this. the only thing we can do is stay apart from other people. to stop the virus spreading so fast. that's the only thing we've got. really the only way we can stop piling dying of americans by the thousands and tens of thousands into the arms of our doctors and nurses who are doing the hardest work on earth fighting to keep people alive in the biggest coronavirus epidemic on earth. we treed to stay in touch with them, tried to keep hearing from them on their own terms as much as we can. tonight, here's one i want you to see. that did not come to us because we asked a doctor or nurse to put on a gopro or grab their phone and make a video for us. this is something we got from waterloo community television in black hawk county, iowa. the reason i want to show this to you, my god, if there's one thing i have seen in about a week that has made me sit down and try to figure out if i'm

doing enough, if there's anything else that i can do, i think i was seeing this. maybe that's in part because i'm not sure anybody involved in this ever thought it would be seen outside black hawk county, iowa. here's black hawk county on a map. if you want to picture it. here's the big tyson meat processing plant there where apparently hundreds of people got infected on the job and the state kept the plant open, anyway, through last week. now little black hawk county, iowa, population 130,000 in the whole county, now because of the outbreak that started in that plant, they've got over 1,300 coronavirus cases in that county. and they've got a climbing death toll and, no, they don't have a ton of health care resources in that county. they just don't. they're not designed for pa a pandemic. that's what they're coping with you. i want you to meet tonight the medical director of one of their local clinics, her name is dr. sharon declose.

waterloo community television. hear the white house or conservative tv or your home state governor brag about how things are better, we're over this, this isn't new york city here, trying to stop this virus is worse than the virus, itself. just introduce them to dr. duclose in the middle of iowa. >> thank god there are a lot of people that have nonbeen personally touched by this. thank god there are a lot of people out there that don't know somebody that has been personally touched by this. but for people who work in the health care profession, they are the front lines of this and they've had to go through that emotional roller coaster of feeling the wave that's coming initially, you know it's coming, you're watching new york city, you're watching all that that you go through, but you're distance away.

you're seeing it but not really feeling it. you feel sympathy. you're like, oh, my gosh, that's just so -- i'm so sorry for them. but you're still over here feeling a-okay. and then it gets a little closer. and then it starts to hit your community. and then we saw the surge. and then we felt that emotional, okay, here it comes. this wave is now coming. here comes the tsunami. and then you change a little bit more as far as working around how many positions can i change to really take care of this wave of people as they come in? and as you do that, then you're trying to take care of your staff who start to feel like they start to get sick. and so as the wave comes in, then you have a portion of your staff that's out because you're worried about illness. and -- and they don't feel well. so you get over that. and when people go into the hospital and then finally, finally, you start to see the deaths.

i think that's the thing that really gets you. is you see the impact on the family who have to sit at home and can't be with their loved one, who have to facetime as somebody is going through one of the most traumatic experiences of their life. we're going to facetime. and that's the part that finally gets very overwhelming and i know in our organization that is what we're feeling. and that's what i've been feeling. and it's hard because you start to go through the grief of realizing, again, this is not a sprint. it's a marathon. you have to set your mind to work on your stamina.

and the governor announces the opening. now more than ever and especially in black hawk county -- black hawk county, the social distancing is so important, and for me, it is -- i think about what would the person say to me who just died from this. how would they advocate helping other people not go through what they just went through. so that's what i think about. so for the other businesses, churches, restaurants, think about your community and think about your actions and think about how you can best serve the greater good and really, really work on social distancing because i can tell you, it is a heavy load to carry, and my biggest fear -- as i encourage

my staff to come to work every day and be compassionate and help people -- is my biggest fear is i'm going to lose one of them and that i have to carry on my shoulders because i'm asking them to do a service that i realize it is very hard. and i'm asking them, i know they've got that pit in the middle of their stomach and you get up and you come to work and you think, okay, is this the day? so, please, whork on the social distancing. please help people out so the number of deaths that we have to endure are minimized as much as they can. that's my plead today. thank you.

>> so, the number of deaths that we have to endure are minimized as much as they can." black hawk county, iowa, waterloo, iowa. the impact on the doctors there" black hawk county, iowa, waterloo, iowa. the impact on the doctors there, that's the medical director ore one of their clinics. that's what happens when you get a big outbreak of hundreds of cases that the happens among the people who work the at a meat processing plant somewhere in america it's not a food supply issue. it's not even the immense tragedy of hundreds of people from the same workplace all getting sick and a number of them starting to die. i mean, these huge outbreaks of hundreds of cases in the places where we're getting big outbreaks, at meat plants, at prisons, at big jails, at nursing homes, at all the places we now know we americans are doing the worst job keeping

other people alive and keeping them from being infected, all the places we are seeing these -- the worst outbreaks, these are not islands of individual failure where these infection explosions are confined within the four walls of these facilities. these are all outbreaks of a very contagious communicable disease that then creates not only immense infection inside that facility but a large outbreak of new infection, mild illness, and ultimately death around wherever those facilities are and that's what then pours into and pours over whatever hospital and health -- and ultimately morgue resources there are in that area. and that is why it is more than just bad that the places that have so many of these huge outbreaks often tend to be the places, politically, that want to open stuff up the fastest. or who never shut down nonessential businesses and told people to stay at home in the first place.

>> has the incidence of health care workers coming down or testing positive for covid-19 affected our operations? and the answer to that is yes. we have nurses that are being exposed to it. we have lots of people that -- that are getting tested now and it's not just unity point clinic. it's health care workers across. it's offevery one of our organizations and the nursing homes and anybody that's involved in health care, we're starting to see the numbers start to klum. climb. care, we're starting to so that's a major problem. and as we continue to see the surge in the hospital we're moving more resources and people into the hospital to try to address the care our patients need there and they're doing the same thing at mercyone. that's taking more patient -- more nurses and staff and putting them directly in harm's way to take care of the patients that need to be taken care of. >> he's the medical director at the main hospital in waterloo,

iowa. they had a build a second respiratory clinic at that facility because of the high volume of patients that are now surging into that hospital in acute respiratory need because they are covid patients. with that unfolding in black hawk county, including now starting to lose health care staff as the patient numbers surge in the hospitals and the clinics, with the sioux city, iowa, area also being another place in that state with one of the fastest-growing outbreaks on the planet right now, with that problem they've got in black hawk county, with the problem they got around sioux city, iowa republican governor kim reynolds this week is ordering businesses in iowa to open up and she has now threatened workers in the state of iowa that if for some reason they are afraid of unsafe conditions at their workplace, if you're worried that the way your workplace is set up poses a risk of you getting infected on the job, well, tough. according to your governor, you have to go, anyway. the governor is ordering businesses back open and going a step further, explicitly ordering that if you believe

your workplace isn't safe, and so you don't show up for work, she will zero out any unemployment benefits that you have been getting. governor pete ricketts, also republican governor in nebraska, is doing the same thing to working people in this state as well. but this is what's emerging as republican party policy or maybe strategy? now that we've got over 60,000 americans dead. "the new york times" reporting on a, quote, network of conservative leaders, donors and organizations that has launched a legal onslaught against state and local restrictions intended to slow the spread of the coronavirus." the "times" further reporting these conservative groups mounting this effort have become, quote, emboldened in recent days by ever more explicit signs that u.s. attorney william barr and the justice department may take their side to help them legally dismantle public health efforts to slow the virus and to limit the death toll.

and they're doing this because -- because, well, i -- they're -- this is what they're doing because that's how the administration and the republican party and the conservative media want to go down in history here? 60,000 americans dead. yeah, sounds like a good start. what else can we do? i mean, it's one thing if this had been their take from the outset, right, before americans started dying in huge numbers. we're going to legally challenge anything you do to try to slow this virus or slow the death toll from piling up. it would be one thing if they had sort of taken that stance from the zbrivery beginning but didn't. this increasingly is their unified position now, now that this many americans have died this quickly. now that we've outpaced by four months the date by which the favored white house model said we'd hit this many americans dead. they said we'd maybe hit 61,000 americans dead the first week in august. well, it's still april and here we are. so now is when they really want

to put the screws to the doctors and the nurses and the hospitals. let's see how high we can get the body count. let's see how many people we can get infected all at the same time. it's just now, now's the time? it's just incredible to see. to live through this. it is hard to imagine what would be appropriate political accountability at the ballot box for people who are doing this at some point, but that's where we are. that's where the republican party is. that's where the kshticonservat media is. the president issued this executive order mandating the opening of meat processing plants across the country, technically despite the hype if the way they build it, he didn't really order meat plants to stay open. he basically just moved to block any state from being able to close a meat plant. but just think about this for one hot second. why have meat plants been closing all over the place? and, right, why have meat plants been closing? it's not like it's been some blue state plot to make everybody a vegan or to make

meat packing look bad. these plants have been closing in all of these different states all over the country for one very simple, very consistent reason, because these facilities are in the elite, very top rung, of the places in america where the most people are being infected the most quickly by this virus. they have proved to be an incredibly efficient location for creating enormous outbreaks of coronavirus. and all of the subsequent o hospitalizations and deaths that come from them. to the point where otherwise stoic doctors in the heartland who have never been known before to cry in public, weeping in public over the toll on their doctors and nurses. right? begging the public, please, do social distancing even though the governor says it's fine to open up now. to the point today where the county health director there could barely get it out. >> to all the front line staff, especially to our health care providers, thank you for

everything that you are doing. we value every single effort you make to save every life. this is a very difficult time, so if you see me emotional, it's just because it's very difficult and i want everybody to take this very seriously. covid has had a huge impact on the community. as much as i -- you know, with the communication that things are opening up, what i'm asking for black hawk county is to please continue to implement these preventative measures. i need you all to not give up. i know it's been very difficult, but please do not give up. by staying home, you are saving a life.

>> that's what is happening in northeastern ohio. after the outbreak there that started in their tyson meat plant which employs thousands of people there. but that's what's happening. in america right now. with this epidemic. in weld county, colorado, where the local republican board of supervisors is demanding that all businesses open up and no statewide orders apply to them, weld county, colorado, they've got one of the worst infection rates in the county in part because of an outbreak of unknown size out of 6,000 person jbs meat plant. u.s. senator in colorado, cory gardner, has been bragging recently about his role in directing 5,000 tests to that plant once they realize they had a real problem there. well, 5,000 tests still wouldn't be enough to test everybody who works at that plant, but in any case, the plant did not even try to test all of its workers before re-opening this past week. already five people who work there are dead. already the local health system in that part of colorado is raising the alarm about the strain they are facing in terms

of the surge into northern colorado hospitals because they've got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases there now. but the plant is back up and running. in minnesota governor tim walls visited a plant in the plant of w w worthington, minnesota. there's no reason for nobles county, minnesota, to have over 600 coronavirus cases except for the fact they've got a jbs pork plant there. apparently hundreds of people have been infected on the job because of the way the plant is set up. dakota county, nebraska, a tyson plant there, didn't report their first case until april 12th. their first case april 12th. they now have 608 known cases. in crete, i think how you say it, c-r-e-t-e, crete, nebraska, 25 miles from lincoln, nebraska, they had dozens of employees test positive and the plant announced plans to close

temporarily to clean the plant and come up with measures to keep the workers safe. then the plant reversed that decision and told the workers, actually, no, we're not going to shut down, we're going to stay open. after they told the workers there that they had changed their mind, going to stay open, the workers there at that plant walked off the job, improptu walkout not organized or approved by the union. didn't know what to do to get the company to make necessary changes to keep them safe. there are actually fairly good up-to-date federal guidelines about how workplaces like this can be run without continuing to infect their workers by the dozens and the hundreds, thereby creating large outbreaks of coronavirus all over the country wherever these plants exist. and the guidelines are not rocket science, but they are carefully derived by experts and they involve some expense and some stuff that plants presumably don't want to do. it's, you know, they do tell them to consider slowing the line speeds down. plants don't want to do that. space the workers more than six feet apart. don't have the workers work right across from each other

facing each other. provide everybody with masks. disinfect everybody's hard hats and face shields every day. slow down or space out break times and shift times so there isn't a time when everybody's crammed together in the same room or corridor. let people wash their hands frequently. put hand sanitizer stations everywhere. i mean, these guidelines make sense. they're certainly doable things if we want to be a country that continues to have meat processing. but they're only doable with some considerable time and expense invested in the part of the people who own these plants. well, we know how this works in a regulatory environment. right? unless you mandate it, unless you require every plant to these things, you'll create a competitive disadvantage for any plant that does this stuff. if the other plants don't was they don't have to. because of that, you have to make them all do it. you have to make a blanket rule. you have to make guidelines like that mandatory or not only will there be some plants who don't

do it because they want to skate, you will economically disincentivize compliance even among plants that might be inclined to do the right thing. you have to make these guidelines mandatory and universal or you will not get them. and that is how a functioning government would approach it. that is not what our government is doing. instead, we got ahold of this. it's the enforcement memo that goes along with the president's late-night executive order which banned any state from shutting down a meat plant. this was the trump is ordering the meat plants open thing, it's really him blocking the states from shutting them down. we since received the enforcement memo of how they're going to do this and the mem simemo says there are guidelines for how meat plants can operate without infecting all their employees. there are guidelines. there's ways to do it. but the enforcement memo for the president's executive order explicitly says the trump administration will not actually make any plant follow these guidelines. "no part of the joint meat processing guidance should be construed to indicate that state

and local authorities may direct meat and poultry processing facility to close, to remain close or operate in accordance with procedures. osha will take into account good-faith attempts," attempts " q" "to follow." whatever you think is best, make a good-faith effort here, all we're looking for here, give it the old college try. when the h1n1 virus was rearing its head in 2009, the administration decided that the guidelines for preventing the transmission of that virus would -- guidelines worked out by cdc and osha, the government decided, obama administration decided in 2009 that those guidelines would be binding. you can do that through the department of labor. you establish an emergency temporary standard and you require, in that case, places like nursing homes and hospitals to follow those guidelines to prevent infection because that

made sense to do. you don't say these are the guidelines but nobody has to follow them. that will ensure that nobody follows them. instead, you create the guidelines and you make them mandatory. that's what they did with h1n1 in the obama administration. it takes a signature. there's no reason why the trump administration could not do exactly the same thing with the guidance they have already drawn up for these meat plants that have infected thousands of blue collar workers in this country. and that have started to swamp the hospitals in working-class and middle-class and rural communities all through the ag belt already. they literally could just do it and likely save hundreds, thousands, arguably, in the end, tens of thousands of lives. they could do it with the stroke of a pen. why aren't they doing it? we'll be right back. give me your hand! i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual!

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little over a week ago you might remember we spoke with the sheriff of black hawk county, iowa, which was in the middle of a large and growing coronavirus outbreak tied to the joint tyson meat packi ining plant in the t of waterloo. a week ago they 356 cases and 3 deaths. they tied roughly half the cases back to the one tyson meat plant. the sheriff there along with the county board of supervisors and board of health and mayor of waterloo, they were all begging publicly tyson, the plant's owner, or iowa's governor, kim reynolds, to please shut the plant down given the impact it

was having on the surrounding community. the sheriff said on the program last week, "that plant is the biggest hole in our county defense right now and creating a risk to the entire population of my county. "two days after we spoke to the sheriff last week tyson did finally close down that plant. they closed it in part, they said, because so many of the 2,700 workers at that plant were out sick. the sheriff and the waterloo mayor both welcomed the plant finally closing, both of them said they worried it had come too late for their community. that was last week in black hawk county. here's the sheriff this week. now that just as they feared, cases have skyrocketed. i just said 350 cases roughly when we talked to him last week. 1,300. >> 1% of our population is now infected, and that's the 1% that we have tested and that we are aware of, that we know of and we know certainly there are more asymptomatic and people who

haven't been tested that are still out there. i hear corporate tyson talking about how this community covid spread is impacting their operations. and it makes me want to jump up out of my chair to say their operations is negatively, has negatively impacted the covid spread in my community. you can't jump 500 people in testing positive and not have somebody stand up and say, listen, folks, this is real. we can't let it sit without comment. today should be that wakeup day because we're over a thousand cases. we're almost double the second highest count. >> almost a thousand cases, that was yesterday.

as of today, black hawk county, iowa, has 1,326 confirmed cases. there have been more than a dozen deaths already and the local hospitals are filling up, one waterloo hospital adding a second respiratory unit in the past few days to try to deal with the high volume of covid patients. the county's public health director says over 90% of the cases in the county can be traced to the tyson meat packing outbreak in one way or another and now president trump says it's time ton open that plant back up. executive order. no more shutting down meat packing plants. open them back up. with no binding guidance in terms of how they should prevent their workers from continuing to get infected in huge numbers. no binding guidance. if tyson decides to re-open that giant plant because of the president's executive order last night, nobody can tell them no, if they decide to, what is that going to mean for local officials and local hospitals trying to cope in a place like black hawk county? joining us is tony thompson, the

sheriff there. sheriff, thank you very much for coming back. when you were here, i said at the end of our discussion last week, i would really love you to come back and apprise us of the latest. i am sad to know that it's more than a thousand cases down the road in just that week's time, but thank you for being here, sir. >> it is absolutely my pleasure. i wish we were talking about something more positive, i wish we could have an update that said that we're on top of this but certainly it's now outrunning us and so absolutely frustrating for me to know that my citizens -- >> did we just lose his audio for a second? do we have a backup audio with the sheriff that we can get him on the phone for a second. this sometimes happens with the remote studio that i'm in and he's joining in by skype. sheriff, are you back with us? >> we could do it this way. absolutely. >> god bless you. see, sheriffs always have another -- >> sorry.

>> -- way. it's all right. if not by hook, then by crook. let me just ask you to, let me ask you to pick up where you left off there in terms of feeling like you're not getting ahead of this, that it feels like it's running away from you. >> it is. it's frustrating that my citizens are so, they're more at risk than any other county in the state. any citizens in the state of iowa at contracting covid. and we know about 90% of the 1,326 that we're facing right now that are tested positive is because of the tyson plant. 90% of that testing. it incenses me. and i feel like the full page ad that tyson took out in the "new york times" how operations are being negatively impacted by this covid spike or covid spread was like a shot over my bow and my citizens' bow when we know that it's attributable to these inept reactionary and

dysfunctional responses to what was happening in their plants. >> from the testing that has happened at the plant in waterloo, we know that nearly half of the test results they got back were positive, showing something like 44% positive, among people working in that plant. do you believe that they could operate safely enough to prevent further spread, to prevent more people from getting infected on the job there when their workforce has already got that many people who have been infected on the job? >> well, look, the concern for us is clearly that tyson is a big part of our agri economy, in the state of iowa, in black hawk county, they're an important partner for us, and we definitely want them to reopen, we recognize that those 2700 employees probably live paycheck to paycheck, and that's an

important thing for our economy, it's an important thing for those employees, but obviously, we've got to do this safely. and i don't have a good feel right now that that's possible. but i think with that dpa that was released by the president, that we're going to have any kind of control or say-so whatsoever at this point, i think, again, if the good-faith effort i was seeing back on april 10th when i walked through that plant with the department of health, if that's the good-faith effort that they're putting forth, from this point forward, forget about it, the hole that they blew in our front line of defense is already -- the damage is already done. now our front line of defense is in our correctional institutions, it's at our e.r. front doors. it's at our long-term care facilities and nursing homes' front doors. we've already -- we're monitoring five long-term care and nursing home facilities. i've got a nurse and a food service worker in my own jail

that have deft tested positive because of -- one was a roommate of a tyson worker. the other worked as a prn nurse at long-term care facility where a tyson worker was married to a nurse that brought it into that facility. i mean, this is ridiculous. and to have our governor opening things back up now, obviously, we're concerned about the economy as well. but in our county, again, my biggest concern is my own citizens and their public safety, and god, i wish i was chasing bad guys instead of chasing a virus. >> tony thompson, the sheriff of black hawk county, iowa, sir, i can hear the frustration in your voice. i know you do not have to talk to national media about what's going on right there with everything else you're dealing with. i appreciate you taking the time. and i want you to come back and keep us apprised. i'm worried about your county and a few other counties in your

part of the country dealing with similar circumstances right now and i feel like we need to stay in touch to tell the country what's happening. >> sincerely my pleasure. thanks for having me. >> thanks, sheriff. we'll be right back. stay with us. i'm a work in progress. so much goes... into who i am. hiv medicine is one part of it. prescription dovato is for adults who are starting hiv-1 treatment and who aren't resistant to either of the medicines dolutegravir or lamivudine. dovato has 2... medicines in... 1 pill to help you reach and then stay undetectable. so your hiv can be controlled with fewer medicines... while taking dovato. you can take dovato anytime of day,... with food... or without. don't take dovato if you're allergic to any of its... ingredients or if you take dofetilide. if you have hepatitis b, it can change during treatment with dovato and become harder to treat. your hepatitis b may get worse or become life-threatening... if you stop taking dovato. so do not stop dovato... without talking to your doctor. serious side effects can occur, including allergic reactions,... liver problems, and liver failure.

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because they never quit. there's a panel of 17 ceos, hospital officials, state and local hospital officials whose job it is to advise the governor of massachusetts, charlie baker, about what massachusetts should do about that state's sizable epidemic. when it comes to tries to save and restart parts of the massachusetts economy. the outbreak in massachusetts, it's bad. there's now more than 60,000 cases in the state. more than 3,400 deaths in the state already. thinking about what to do with existing stay-at-home policies, whether and when and how to open up businesses is definitely a hard decision. it's hard for all states. it's all the more difficult and all the more consequential in a state that has a big epidemic already. but in massachusetts they've also got big really advanced health sector, including on the

academic side. and that's what makes it very interesting that there is another tool that can advise the governor now on what he should do. mass general hospital, massachusetts general, along with harvard medical school, and boston university, and also georgia tech, they created a tool that they call the covid-19 simulator. it doesn't simulate the virus, it simulates the effect of policies designed to limit the spread of the virus. it's a tool that basically lets policymakers play out different scenarios. do you lock down businesses in the state? do you lift all restrictions? do you try something in the middle? this is a tool that's designed to show you what the consequences of that decision might be, given the state of the epidemic right now and when you might want to make this policy change. the simulator lets you do this for all 50 states. you can get online yourself, and it will run with it. you can make yourself a decision-maker and see if you can make good calls. just take a look at massachusetts. which is currently under a stay-at-home order.

the governor says it's going to be there until at least may 18th. okay. well, according to the simulator, this is what it looks like if massachusetts keeps doing what it's doing for the next few months. if governor baker leaves intact the measures that he's got right now, the state will go from 3,400 deaths as of today, and those deaths will rise. they will, however, level off over the summer until by the end of august the state will reach a total number of deaths that is right around 4,900. 4,900 deaths by the end of august with policy as it is right now. but if, instead, restrictions are lifted by the governor, let's say before the end of may, soon after the current restrictions are due to expire, well then what happens? then what happens is that the death count explodes. and by the end of august, massachusetts would not have 4,900 deaths, it would have more than 27,000 deaths. that's if they dropped the policies they've got now before the end of may.

that's the difference for one state. for massachusetts. between having solid public health policy in place and not. between keeping things as they are or ripping the lid off. more than 22,000 dead residents in 1 state before the end of the summer. and that is just one model. again, that's mass general, harvard medical school, b.u., and georgia tech. there's a whole bunch of different models out there. that's kind of a well-sourced thing. and obviously it's scary for all the front line reasons, unless, of course, you look at those absolutely preventable 22,000 deaths and decide, well, yeah, 22,000 dead but we really got to get the economy going. that kind of thinking is what brings us to our next guest tonight, and the next big mistake that the country is making right this second. stay with us. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else. so why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms

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today we got another

punishing round of economic news. the economy shrank in the first three months of the year by an annualized rate of almost 5%, not only is that by far the worst economic quarter since the 2008 financial disaster, but we know the worst is yet to come. economists warn that in this current quarter, the economy could be shrinking at a rate of 30%. already more than 26 million americans have lost their jobs in five weeks. tomorrow, we're going to get the latest weekly report on job losses. economists expect another 3.5 million americans to have filed for unemployment this week. americans losing jobs by the million, tens of millions, across the economy, from companies, but it's also from town halls and local libraries, it's from everywhere. this was, i think, the very important headline in the "washington post" about this. "mass lay yufs begin in cities and states amid coronavirus threatening education, sanitation, health and safety." in dayton, ohio, the city's already furloughed a quarter of

its workforce including at the city dee city's water department. baltimore, furloughs and firefighters. cities and states are broke like everybody is broke right now. while congress has passed nearly $3 trillion in economic relief, only a tiny sliver of that has gone to states and cities that are facing these huge budget shortfalls. and maybe you don't care about that in the abstract, but when states and cities go bankrupt, they have to fire or at least furlough the people who work for them. and the people who work for states and cities tend to be the people who make civilization basically possible. unless you don't particularly care for or need running potable water, or trash pickup, or cops, or people who will come with a truck full of water and hoses if your house catches fire. top senate republican mitch mcconnell first said that states should just go bankrupt. many said maybe congress could lep the states if the states all

agree to certain republican political priorities. if the idea is to prop up the economy, why aren't police officers and teachers and firefighters and people who work at the water company seen as part of the economy, and setting aside the politics of any of this, how is this not a disastrous decision in terms of how we as americans live and what we're spending money on to try to keep our civilization together while our economy is in a coma. joining us now is paul, "new york times" columnist, nobel prize winning koll columnist, t for joining us tonight. >> glad to be on. >> let me ask you, if i said anything that seems dumb there, or if my frustration here is frustration that you share. >> no, i mean this is, this is basically the same. we have, there is no shortage of money. the federal government is

running huge deficits but it can't right now, you know, we can sell bonds -- washington, can sell bonds at rates that are ridiculously low, once we adjust for inflation are actually negative so there are no reason to be suffering, things have to be closed, restaurants have to be closed, big giant sports events have to be closed, there is nothing that says we should be laying off schoolteachers, that we should be laying off firefighters, the money is, there but the money is in washington. states and local governments are required to run balanced budgets. so the obvious thing is to maintain these, you know, no unnecessary pain, no gratuitous suffering, there's going to be a lot of, this is going to be a difficult period, but we should minimize the harm, but the trouble is, that because of the rules of the game, that money has to come from washington, and it's completely insane to say, no, we're not going to do that and to try to pretend that this

ethical, this great depression level economic crisis is somehow the fault of fiscal irresponsibility of progressive governments in blue states when in fact, it's nationwide and it's completely again, has nothing to do with lack of wisdom. this is a vast natural disaster. >> do you see a way that this could be structured as a policy or even framed as an idea that could get broad washington support and could move money quickly? i mean i'm, you know, i'm an american living through this just like anybody is, but the idea that cops and firefighters and teachers and people who work as sanitation workers and people who work at the water department and other people who just do basic utility stuff that we need to keep ourselves together, that they're at risk right now of furloughs, gives me a great sense of urgency around, this and i feel like you can read the politics as well as anybody. do you see a way that this will

get politically fixed? >> i think there are two things that may work in our favor. one is, i think as this starts to bite, people get a much better sense of what we're really talking about. a lot of people say it's government. and then you say do you think we should have fewer schoolteachers? do you think we should have fewer in the fire departments and lay off policemen? then you say. no that's what state and local government is. state and local government is overwhelmingly education, first responders, public security, highways, things that we all depend on. the other thing is that governors, even republican governors, for the most part, and they're not, well, for the most part, republican governors are aware of what is really happening here, and if they imagine, if, you know, mitch mcconnell imagines that somehow this is only a new york problem, that it is a new jersey problem, he's going to very quickly hear

from governors of red states that they're inasmuch trouble. and some ways maybe even in more trouble. i'm looking at this about the same, look, places like florida and texas depend almost totally on sales taxes where as new york or california depend on the income taxes, and probably the sales tax revenue will fall faster than the income tax revenue, so this is going to be, we're going to see desperate budget situations, in republican states, and hopefully those, the governor, the legislatures, those places, will be burning up the phone lines, to the senate, and saying, mitch, this may sound great to you, but if you look at what is actually happening to us on the ground, we need that money, and it's not at all hard to do, you could do this in a day, it wouldn't be a perfect bill, but you could save us from what will be otherwise catastrophic cuts in public

services. >> really important point about those sort of coming political incentives. "new york times" columnist, paul krugman, thanks for your time tonight. appreciate it. >> thank you. time tonight. appreciate it. >> thank you you're in this alone. we're automatically refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums. we're also offering flexible payment options for those who've been financially affected by the crisis. we look forward to returning to something that feels a little closer to life as we knew it, but until then you can see how we're here to help at libertymutual.com/covid-19. [ piano playing ] try eucerin advanced repair and switch. it doubles your skin's moisture and repairs dry skin over time. so tomorrow can be a different story. eucerin - recommended and used by dermatologists.

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i called iowa governor kim reynolds kay reynolds. it's kim, not kay. i still maintain her coronavirus policies in iowa are "cray." maybe that's what happened. that does it for me. see you again tomorrow. hey there, i'm joshua johnson and nbc world headquarters in new york. good to be with you tonight as some americans are getting ready f for work tomorrow. the u.s. has more than 1.1 million confirmed cases and more than 67,000 known deaths. still, many states have begun to jump start their economies. by tomorrow, 33 states will have some businesses reopening. every state and territory is waiting for treatments or vaccines to help us feel safer getting back to work. president trump is pushing hard for this revival, partly because