i called iowa governor kim reynolds kay reynolds. it's kim, not kay. i still maintain her coronavirus policies in iowa are "cray." maybe that's what happened. that does it for me. see you again tomorrow. hey there, i'm joshua johnson and nbc world headquarters in new york. good to be with you tonight as some americans are getting ready f for work tomorrow. the u.s. has more than 1.1 million confirmed cases and more than 67,000 known deaths. still, many states have begun to jump start their economies. by tomorrow, 33 states will have some businesses reopening. every state and territory is waiting for treatments or vaccines to help us feel safer getting back to work. president trump is pushing hard for this revival, partly because

the economy is key to his re-election strategy. a new report from the "washington post" details 34 days of this pandemic. according to the post, the president desperately tried to get us back to business without building the public health infrastructure that experts have been clamoring for. texas is among the states ending lockdowns, movie theaters were able to reopen as of friday, the day before, texas reported its highest single day death toll. reactions to this appear mixed, according to the latest dallas news poll, half of texans said they are not yet comfortable shopping in malls and stores. they expressed more comfort in going to work or dining out. the poll also showed the texans are split on approvaling of how president trump is hand ling this outbreak. but the gation says this has been a success, here is what president trump said tonight, at a virtual town hall. >> what i did is i rarely, i closed our country to china.

nancy pelosi was saying a month later, everybody, pass, even tony fauci saying it is going to pass, not a big deal. >> plenty to discuss. let's dive in with the panel, jeff mason, a white house reporter for reuters, shauna thompson, the mobile app, and msnbc contributor, and we have nbc news.com senior political analyst jonathan allen. glad to have all of you with us tonight. and jeff mason, let me start with you, where do we read the president's perspective now on the crisis and the path forward, how much has it changed in the last week or so, and how much is the same? >> that's a good question, joshua, i think the president is certainly focused on seeing this country reopen, and he has been focused on that for some time, to some controversy, he was saying let's get the country open by easter and of that

course wasn't possible because the virus was still spreading, and the virus is still spreading now, so the question is, will the states follow the guidance that the president's coronavirus task force has put forward, in terms of staged openings, and how that affects the economy, and how it will affect him politically going forward. >> shauna, the post quoted a senior administration official saying the doctors and scientists who were advising the administration had in the official's words a bit of a god complex, and this person went on to say that these advisers are all, quote, science, science, science, which is good, but sometimes there is a little bit less of a consideration of politics when maybe there should be, unquote. there's real tension between keeping people safe and getting people back to work. somehow do you think that tension will evolve, how do you think that tension will evolve from here? >> it's pretty clear that the president wants people to get back to work. he wants to reopen the country. but even as we saw in the town

hall, as people were asking questions that fox news had gathered, he was also putting it back in the hands of states. he was saying, he was answering questions, basically saying that hey, that governor kind of depends on your governor. so i think one of the things that happens, when it comes to politic, one of the ways he is working through it is to make sure you know that the governors are responsible, i'm not saying they're the only ones responsible but i think that is kind of one of the tactics he is using, and then as things open up, and if things go well, they'll get to say, hey, i put the plan together that these governors used and be able to use that. something goes wrong in one state, he will basically be able to say hey, that governor didn't follow the plan. >> jonathan, let me play another cut from the town hall that aired this evening on fox news, regarding the administration's efforts. here is another exchange between the president and fox news. >> your son-in-law, jared kushner declared it is a great

success story, the federal response. >> it is. >> and when you look at the other side, that you're on the other side medically. do you think that as deaths are going up and cases are going up, that we really are on the other side medically, and that this is a great success story from the federal government? >> well, i can, well, it's too soon to say that really, i guess, because we're still in the middle of something but certainly we would have lost a lot more people, if we would have done, as an example, you herd, in other words, everything is wonderful and keep going along. we would have lost two and a half million people, i think, or a million and a half, or two million people, no i think we've done a good job, i think the american people have done a good job. this is a tragic situation. >> tragic indeed. how do we read the president's argument that this was a success. >> if he had done absolutely nothing, if the presidency had

been vacant, more people would have died than him as president and it is probably not the campaign slogan you would imagine a president would want to run on. as far as the success goes, there are things that the administration has done with president trump kicking and screaming effectively to limit, to mitigate the death, and the spread of the disease. i mean for example, he really didn't want to put out that stay at home guidance for very long. as jeff pointed out, he had hoped to lift that by easter. you can only imagine what the fatalities would have looked like by now if they had actually followed through with that plan. and some of my colleagues at nbc have been reporting on what is going on inside the administration, as this reopening plan goes forward, and in draft documents that we obtained, there was talk from people at fema, hhs, the defense department, on the task force,

concerned that weren't enough tests and concerned there was a catastrophic resurgence of the disease and concerned there was no treatment. >> jeff, we know that president trump is going to tout the economy as a core tenet of his re-election case. we're six months from the election. >> so there is a lot of daylight between now and november 3rd but there r-the there, are there any early indications of how that is working for them? >> they're watching the polling closely and i think you've seen just in the last week, both by being at the white house, like i am, and the people watching the white house from afar, that they're had to change their communication strategy and the president's strategy of holding daily briefings and touting whatever he wanted to tout, be it his very highly-criticized comments about disinfectant, to a whole list of other things, that has changed, on some level, from a strategic point of view, because now they're holding, they're holding events in the east room, and they're at least

getting on the road this week, on tuesday, going to arizona, so i mean i think they're watching the polling, joshua, to get to your question, and seeing the results that aren't exactly what they want to see. you also hear him talking about the economy, and looking forward to the third quarter, and the fourth quarter, saying that the third quarter is going to be a transition, but the fourth quarter, which happens to be the quarter where the november election falls, is going to be good. that's what he's saying at this point, is pretty hard to imagine that. >> shauna, today the president tweeted that the intelligence community confirmed his statement that they did not bring up coronavirus until late january. we have reported that the president's daily brief began, including warnings about coronavirus, in at least early january. the president asserts that his travel ban on china was right and that we in the press got it wrong. are we any closer now to knowing who and what and when? >> i don't really think so. and i think from a political

standpoint, i think a lot of people are going to vote on, or one of the things that they're going to vote on is the response to that but also how they were personally affected by covid-19 when we get to the election and history is pretty good and political historians are usually pretty good about somehow unweaving these things and try to give us a clearer idea of what happened but for now, i think we look at the reporting, we look at the president says and at some point you will have to make a decision about what seems most believable but i think in the town hall tonight, the president said there will be some type of statement, or something coming this week, from the intelligence agencies, trying to even more publicly clean up what seems to be a lot of inconsistencies, and so we'll also, i think, have to see more about that. >> well, jonathan, chi use kind of a signal versus noise reading from you, on the president's tweet, sending the one that we just read aside, yesterday the pred wrote that he is glad that

north korea's kim jong-un is back and well, kim he had been rumored to be gravely ill or dead and they released what they claim to be authentic video but we have no way of authenticating that and he has said that he has done more for black americans than any other presidents combined and said honest abe wasn't bad, unquote. how much of this is signal and how much of this is noise? we have a pandemic to stop and i don't feel like being distracted by stupidity right now, so how much of this other stuff should we be thinking about? does that even matter in the context of all of this? >> not to a single person who is on a ventilator, not to a single person who is trying to get purge protective equipment, not a single person who has lost a family member. you know, i think it's almost all noise. and not to speak for all african-americans, jash woshua,i would argue the polling and the

past elections to suggest that the president is not the most popular president with african-americans in american history or really even close. >> jeff, in the last few seconds, is there anything from the white house in the week to come with regards to coronavirus that we should be keeping an eye out for? >> i mentioned his trip to arizona. you might see the president doing more travel as well. and see what the messaging from that is, what are they trying to highlight, and what does that mean about the numbers that they're seeing. >> jeff mason, of reuters, shauna thomas, and jonathan allen of nbc news.com, great talking to you all. thank you very much for making time for us. coming up, tens of millions of americans lost their jobs in the coronavirus outbreak. a california congressman joins us with his proposal to help us get through it. next. h it next boutique. outside, it's soft like underwear. inside, it turns liquid to gel. for incredible protection, that feels like nothing but my underwear. new always discreet boutique.

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washington, d.c. continues to be a coronavirus hot spot, still the senate will reconvene tomorrow. both chambers of commerce have

been on a month-long recess, they adjourned after passing the cares act in late march, creating the paycheck protection program and sent cash to millions of people. since march, more than 30 million new unemployment claims have been called. joining us is the california congressman ro khana. welcome. >> thank you. >> an op-ed from joe biden and elizabeth warren called for more oversight of the cares act funds, and the author also criticized the president for his approach to oversight the do you agree with they're segment and if so, what kind of oversight would you be pushing for? >> absolutely, i men when we saw the ppp program, most of the, in the first term of who got the loan business it was those who knew the bankers and businesses with often over 200 employees and when we know in this country

is the small businesses, it is listed under 20 blows that are creating most of the jobs and many minority communities were excluded from those loans so we need to make sure that those loans are actually going to the businesses that are creating the jobs who need the help. >> the original cares act represented $2.2 trillion in relief, the interim bill allocated nearly a half billion more. what is the next step? >> two things. first we should be giving every american $2,000, if they're under $200,000 of household income for at least a few months until the crisis lasts, and one $1200 check is not enough to pay the rent bill and put groceries on the table. and if the government is telling people they can't work, which is the responsible thing, in many communities, then we have an obligation to help them meet their expenses. second, we need to have a workers bill of rights that senator warren and i had proposed, of people who are doing the essential work, they

should be protected. they should have child care. and third, we should have some assistance, for testing. so massive resistance, in getting the production capacity, which has been the real bottleneck. >> i want to come back to that worker's bill of rights in just a second but with regards to the money, we should be clear that this money is being spent against the nation's incredibly deep debt. we are spending dollars that we do not have. how much monger can we afford to do this? even though we need, it how much longer can we afford it? >> well, i think it's important that we realize that interest rates are at the lowest they've been in a long time. most of the nation's debt is being bought up by the fed, so it's not like the fed is going to overseas holders. and if we get the money in the pockets of people, and they spend it, there's a better chance that we're going to have less unemployment, and actually may have more revenue growth, so that we don't have further

deficits caused by economic slowdown. so most economists that i've studied, they have said that this is the time that we should have this spending, and that the problem in 2008 was we didn't have enough spending to deal with the economic downturn. >> let's get back to that workers bill of rights. you and senator elizabeth warren have proposed this. give me an example of the one most important item in that bill of rights that you believe could win bipartisan support. there its been a fair amount of bipartisanship in in the response to coronavirus thus far. are there any parts of this bill that you think that both sides of the aisle could easily get behind? >> they basically are protecting the workers who are doing the essential work. like many people, i order am dodge done packages, i'm very glad we get am dodge packages at my place, there are workers who doing that is corre

doing that, either in the warehouses or driving the trucks and some say they don't have masks, they don't have social distancing. i think we can all agree, if we're benefitting from these workers, that they should at the very least have safety. that they shouldn't be putting themselves and their families at risk. >> now, the cares act also gave something of a tax windfall to millionaires and some of that may well have gone to some of your constituent, your district includes the headquarters of apple, intel, the 49ers stadium, the tesla factory. should we expect more such tax cuts in future bills? was that a concession to get the bill passed? >> i that should not have been in there. i was opposed. and it is obviously very hard to vote against a package when the bill also includes increased unemployment insurance and some support for small business but these bills were not perfect, and too much of the money also went to large industries, not enough went to small businesses, and the working class, and we need to do more. but i think people have to

remember that speaker pelosi is up against mitch mcconnell and donald trump, and she's doing the very best she can, under those circumstances. >> i do want to be clear though, congressman, i don't want to give the implication that your district is just all rich people. there's a lot of mixed income in silicon valley. and cupertino is pretty flush. but depending where you look in santa clara, in some parts of, you know, if you go just north say of fremont and milipitas, you got a lot of mixed income, some low income, east palo alto, very different than palo spls alto. >> i appreciate that amount and i appreciate you're familiar with the community. and janitors and bus driver, and independent contractors, the movement started from my district, and we have google and a lot of wealth but we have a lot of folks who have independent contractors and workers who haven't been able to

afford the rent and have been struggling frankly for the past decade, they have been very hard hit and our office is inundated every day with unemployment claims that people are dealing with, with small businesses that want to get loan, and i mean it is a very tough time for our district, and of course some are doing much better than others but there are many people who are facing the brunt of this. >> i would love to talk to you another time about that in terms of how we deal with that wild variance in incomes, especially going forward, once we start to get the economy back together, because you and i both know there are plenty of people who drive from the central ball vally to a train, to get to work, in santa clara, who then have to make another two-hour commute to get back home. but that's a topic for another night. congressman ro khanna of california, we appreciate your time. thank you very much. >> thank you so much for having me. coronavirus infection rates seem to be leveling, if not slowly declining. but another wave of cases could be in the forecast, alongside our warmer weather.

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it's devastating and worry some to me personally, because as they go home and if they infect their grandmother or their grandfather who has a co-morbid condition and they have a serious or unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of their lives so we need to protect each other at the same time we're voicing our discontent. >> dr. deborah birx clearly did not take the job of task force coordinator just for the guidance of covering our faces and it is easy to see why she is so upset. protesters across california have been packing streets and statehouses, demanding a change in the stay-at-home order. no social distancing. other crowds such as in atlanta, others are ending the orders

informally with nary a mask to be found. the federal government is brain storming ways to curb the spread of covid-19 through contact tracing. joining us now are dr. patel, an msnbc medical contributor and former white house health policy director under president obama, and dr. lorna thorp, the director of the epidemiology division at nyu health. glad to have you both with us. dr. thorp, let me start with you, and this article out of north dakota. north dakota is the only state to meet the estimated need of 30 contact tracers per 100,000 people. a contact tracer is someone who says okay, you have covid-19, who have you interacted with, let's backtrack and get all of those people tested and isolated. you can fit north dakota's population into manhattan. twice. and president trump kind of alluded to that variance in tonight's town hall meeting. here is another clip from tonight's event. >> in some states, you can do a lot less than in other states,

and in new york, i think you would have to go around with masks for a while, you're going to have to do separation, distancing, you're going to have to do that for a while. but some states, you are doing so well. >> dr. thorp how do we make contact tracing work in larger, denser cities? >> well, it's helpful to remember that contact tracing is not new. health departments have been doing it for a long time. it has been a mainstay of public health intervention in the context of infectious disease trol. but the reality is, it is a really challenging project for a health department to launch a very large contact tracing initiative like what is needed now to address covid. in urban areas you would need a lot of contact tracers. they need to be very carefully trained. they need to be very, very carefully managed. and the communication to the public is a big part of a contact tracing program, especially when it's in the,

working with widespread pandemics, such as the coronavirus. so you need all of those things in play. you need well-trained contact workers. contact tracers. you need very, very careful management. and you need a very careful communication program. >> the state of new york is hiring thousands and thousands of contact tracers, as we speak. dr. patel, the trump administration says the u.s. is ready to contain the spread of coronavirus through contact tracing. opinions on that are mixed. what's your assessment of what an effective federal contact tracing program might look like? >> well, it has to be done with kind of, in conjunction, joshua, with testing and then a plan for isolation, and then of course, taking into consideration that there's a lot of regional variation in kind of the health care or hospital preparedness. so you have seen states like, cities like manhattan, and states like new york, kind of talking about not just looking

at the adequacy of contact tracing, but simultaneously thinking about how ready their health care system would be, in case the contact tracing has, detects a spice spike and then we need all of those hospital bed force various reasons. i do think, unfortunately, joshua, people are missing a bigger point here. we have such a heterogenous response to when and how the country is opening, and remember, this is a virus that does not know boundaries, so something that is very well contained in north dakota, for example, doesn't really matter when we've got strains of the virus that we can see that are coming from europe, from asia, and within the united states, across state borders. >> dr. thorp, apple and google have teamed up to produce an app that would help in contact tracing. there has been a lot of discussion on privacy and protection but we have already handed over oodles our data by carrying ka a tracking device in our pocket that also plays candy

crush. the horse is out of the barn on that one. what is your view on contact tracing. it could help theoretically, right? >> i think apps can be helpful. they can't be the main stay of a contact tracing program. in order for a contact tracing program to work, you really have to engender trust with the people who have the coronavirus, who are going to give you very personal information about their contacts, and you have to engender trust with the people who are being contacted, and who have been exposed, and to let them know what they need to do, in order to quarantine themselves, and stay at home. and stay in contact with the health department, while they're quarantining. in order to know if they test, become positive and to identify their contacts and an app doesn't really do that. an app doesn't build that trust in the same way that a carefully trained work force can. singapore has used an app. they're the first ones to say that that app was supplementary

to a very, very carefully managed program. an even in singapore, with very careful 911 program nationally, one app nationally, and a lot of leadership, touting for the public to download the app, the uptake of that app has been very low. you would need a very high uptake of the app in a community for it to be really be a main stay piece of the program. >> last question, dr. patel. this is admittedly a plene question but i'm curious how you would answer it, which one do you think we need more urgently, contact tracing, or a vaccine? >> there's no doubt that we desperately need a vaccine. it's really only until we have a vaccine that we have herd immunity that we're going to be able to actually, just like we do with influenza, feel like a country, that we can get back to normal so there is no question in my mind it is the vaccine.

>> thank you both for making time for us. much appreciated. coming up, meat remains in short supply on many supermarket shelves. some processing plant employees are getting back to work and wondering how much danger their jobs are putting them in. you will meet two union presidents who are working to keep their members safe next. keep their members safe next for each other. that's why state farm is announcing the good neighbor relief program we know our customers are driving less, which means fewer accidents. so state farm is returning $2 billion dollars to auto policyholders for the period ending may 31st. and we'll continue making real time decisions to best serve you - our customers. because now, more than ever, being a good neighbor means everything. like a good neighbor, state farm is there. yes. yes. yeah sure. yes. yes. yeah, yeah no problem. yes yes, yes a thousand times yes! disover. accepted at 99% of places in the u.s.

as of this week, costco is limiting purchases of beef, pork and chicken to three items or fewer per member. it's just one sign of strain as some worry that a meat shortage could be on the horizon. president trump ordered processing plants to stay open under the defense production act. that may put more food on the shelves, but it also puts many workers in a tough spot. >> i understand about us feeding the world and i will say the world, because poultry is everywhere. so when you look at the workers, where was this president two months ago? how much of the it, as opposed to beef, pork and chicken and that's a decision we have to make, because the worker makes that every day when they go to to work. they look at how much is my life worth today.

i'm making $13, 14, 15 an hour. is it worth it? meat packing is a key industry in greeley colorado about, an hour north of denver, and the jbs processing plant in greeley more than doubled after it opened and more than 250 employees tested positive, five plant workers and a corporate jbs employee have died. in sioux falls south dakota, the smithfield pork processing plant is preparing to partially restart tomorrow. it became a coronavirus hot spot after more than 800 employees tested positive. joining us are kim cordova, president of the united food and commercial workers union, and cooper caraway, president of the sioux falls south dakota afl-cio. cooper, let me start with you. what condition is the smithfield plant as you see it, granted they're not here to speak for themselves but in your view, will it be ready to partially reopen tomorrow? >> well, we've been very disappointed with the company's

response thus far. when they didn't cooperate, when the cdc came in and did their investigation, after it became the number one hot spot in the country, it didn't provide the cdc all the information they requested, and now because of donald trump's executive order, they're opening back up prematurely. and so it's an unfortunate and frustrating situation for the workers here, because since the management didn't cooperate, now workers are unsure about the type of facility they're going to be entering. >> smithfield and jbs are of course welcome to take part in this conversation in the future. that is a standing offer. and at the jbs plant in colorado, what is your assessment of the conditions there? >> well, our plant reopened on, the 24th of april, despite the health department's orders to keep that plant closed for a full 14 days and to provide testing for all of the workers.

so they reopened the plant, without testing all of the worker, and workers are still very scared, we've had six deaths in the plant, i believe we have the highest death rate of the facilities, so we still have big concerns because there has not been any plant-wide testing. so for the workers who are asymptomatic, they have not had an opportunity to test, and the numbers do numbers doubled for those who went down and were tested with symptoms. >> cooper, some of these plants are the best or only options for good steady work in the towns where they are. greeley is a little different because greeley is also an oil and gas hub. i've been there. i've seen some of the rigs and derricks and it is a gigantic industry there but in other cities the plant is the primary employer. if the plant opens and its workers have to show up or get fired, what should they do? >> well, number one, they should contact their union. you know, the union is the front

line, the best way to make sure that things are safe, or as safe as they can, and safe as possible. but we are, we're not resigned to a situation where workers are going to be faced with their only option being going into an unsafe plant. even though the management has not cooperated the way we'd like them to be, even though the president has given the unfortunate authoritarian, executive orders, even though we're facing all of these different obstacles from a state government and from management and everywhere else, the real power comes from the workers themselves, standing together, in solidarity, and that's what the union is for. so we're going to keep fighting and doing everything we can to keep these workers safe, and make it as safe as possible in the plant. >> kim, well, actually, first of all, kim, do you have any sense of how many workers at meat processing plants are unionized versus those who aren't? are most of them unionized? few of them unionized? >> well, the united commercial

workers, we represent around 250,000 food processing and packing health workers so there is a pretty good work force that are covered under labor agreement, but of course, there's some that have no representation. >> kim, i'm sure that a lot of people empathize with these workers but we're all trying to feed our families either as producers or consumers so folks who say they want this resolved quickly to get back to normal and restock the shelves, what would you say to that, kim? >> well, first of all, you can accomplish both. you can have the food supply chain continue to go, and what this can continue, to process meat, if you put in safety measures, and guidelines that protect these workers. they are the critical part of the food supply chain. we need the highest level of personal protective equipment, like respirators and we need the ppe from the federal stockpile. we need daily priority testing

for these workers. we also need to stop the culture, by paid sick leave and paid family leave for these workers and we need the enforceable cdc and osha regulations laws, but we need federal and state inspectors in those processing plants to regulate and to make sure that they enforce these safety rules and making sure that these workers are safe. you could do both. but trump, president trump's order just puts workers' lives and their families at risk. >> and briefly, before i let you go, cooper, what do you see being done to help keep workers safer in these plants, briefly? >> i think that you'll see a rash of unionization across the country. i think the plants that weren't union before, you will very likely see union drives because workers all over the country are recognizing that organizing

themselves into a union is the best bet for creating a safe and beneficial work environment. >> and kim, what about you? do you see these companies doing anything now to keep workers safe before we go? >> i think with the, unfortunately, with the president's orders, and keeping the liability aspect out of these companies, i think these companies may find it easier to lax on safety, and so i do think that there's going to be more harm to these front line workers, workers are going to have to make a decision, between financial devastation or their lives. and so we hope by bringing awareness to this, that the public and the consumer support safety of all workers, and really push our government to put enforceable laws in place to protect not only our workers, but our food supply chain. >> kim cordova of unite food and

commercial union and cooper, from the afl-cio, thank you for making time us with. before we go, the gdp is falling and americans are losing jobs. what should we do? s are losing jobs what should we do? taste fresher and more delicious? only eggland's best. which organic eggs have more vitamins and less saturated fat? only eggland's best. better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. when taking a break from everyday life is critical to everyone's health, there is one thing we can all do together: complete the 2020 census. your responses are critical to plan for the next 10 years of health care, infrastructure, and education. let's make a difference, together, by taking a few minutes to go online to 2020census.gov. it's for the well-being of your community and will help shape america's future. ♪

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this week, the latest jobs report will give us a clearer picture of how hard this economic shutdown is hitting us. the most recent weekly numbers from the labor department show another 3.8 million americans filed for unemployment. that means more than 30 million americans have filed sings the coronavirus lockdowns began in mid march. some states are beginning to reopen their economies. but how badly have we been hit? and how will we rebuild? let's discuss it with chris lew, former secretary of labor in the obama administration, now senior fellow at the university of virginia's miller center.

chris, welcome. >> thank you. >> what do you expect to see in the weeks and months to come, regarding not just unemployment but wages and gdp and so on? what do those indicators indicate to you? >> well, joshua, what we've seen so far right now is an economy in a series downturn and i think we're going to see that continue beginning with these unemployment numbers on friday. the problem is. >> this the economy right now, in most of the major month areas is essentially shut down right now. and we're in a public health crisis. and until we resolve this public health crisis, we really can't begin to think about reopening the economy with any much significance, and so i think it's incumbent upon congress and the president to continue to provide financial relief not only to small businesses, but to workers, as well. until we get past this public health crisis. >> with regard to that financial relief, the president's top economic advisers are saying we might need more but we might

not. here's what larry kudlow, the head of the national economic council, had to say about that today. >> there may well be additional legislation. there's kind of a pause period right now, you know, we've put up $3 trillion of direct federal budget assistance in one way or another. the federal reserve has actually put in as much as 4, $6 trillion, so it is a huge, huge package. let's see how it's doing as we gradually reopen the economy. >> chris, what do you think about another round of stimulus? >> i think we're going to need it. we already know that this latest rounds of small business loans will be tapped out relatively quickly. the enhanced unemployment benefits that were provided recently expire at the end of july, we're going to be dealing with this financial, this economic downturn, for the rest of this year, if not into next year as well. and the problem, joshua, is that when the economy reopens, it's not going to be like flipping on a light switch and everything is

going to be back to normal. right now, we already see a lot of the restrictions that are being put on the restaurants and the retail, so that they can only have let's say 25% occupancy or restrictions of how close tables can be together, and a lot of restaurants will find you know what, we just can't operate under those conditions and they will remain closed. >> on top of that, even. so money that has been allocated so far, we've heard a lot about how a number of small businesses just couldn't get their foot in the door to get some of those loans because larger institutions got ahead of them, and we've also learned that minority-owned businesses have faired much worse in applying for some of these loans than businesses that were owned by whites. so even if we apportion more money, we might want to apportion it a little differently next time. >> well, that's one of the reasons why, joshua, why us democrats fought so hard to have that money go to community banks that serves underserved areas and we have seen reports of two

to 300 businesses that are publicly traded, including companies that have paid executives millions of dollars of compensation, were the first in line to get these kinds of benefits and that's wrong, because those are not the people who are having a hard time finding money right now. those are not the people who are the drivers of this economy. so you're 100% right, that even as we put more money out the door, would he need to ensure that it goes to the hardest hit mom and pop delis and dry cleaners and restaurants along the way. the ones that are really already operating and you very slim profit margin, and really just can't survive much longer at this point. >> is there any light at the end of this tunnel? because things look pretty bad right now. and i don't know about you, but i know plenty of people who are having coronavirus economy, the world is falling off the cliff, nightmares, every night, since this thing started. please give us something to lay our heads on, to rest easy tonight. is there anything that gives you hope, that all of this is going to work out okay?

or does it all look bad? >> look, like i said this is a public health crisis and ultimately you have to deal with a public health crisis, before the economy can start up again. but ultimately the u.s. economy is about consumer confidence. the u.s. consumers make up 70% of the u.s. economy, and even if you suddenly reopen everything right now, and people aren't comfortable going to restaurants and movie theaters and baseball games, they're not going to spend money and the u.s. economy is not going to be up and running a so we need to have our arms around this public health crisis and we need the contact tracing and once you have, that then companies can start to reopen and people can start to go to shopping malls again. ultimately, the health and the science have to precede the economic relief. >> and very briefly, before i let you go, this debate over giving cities and states more funding, the trump administration and some republicans have pushed back against that, and in the last few seconds, where do you see that going, if anywhere?

>> it has to happen. we have $15 billion deficit right now, and that will lead eventually to layoffs of teachers and firefighters and police, and that's the second wave of layoffs of people that are on the front lines of dealing with this pandemic, we need to help those people and those state and local governments out. >> that's former deputy labor secretary chris lew now with the university of virginia's miller center. thanks for making time for us and hopefully giving us something a little more positive to rest our heads tonight. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> and appreciate spending time you with. until we meet again, stay safe and stay sharp and we'll get through this. good night. e'll get through this good night he morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait,♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat

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