are so strong, people lost any sense of justice. >> they're dishonest, crooked people. i say it a lot, they're human scum. >> attorney general william barr bemoans a lack of civility, as the president attacks the agency that barr oversees. what a morning. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, may 8th. with joe, willie, and me, we have former u.s. senator, now msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. great morning to have claire back on, given everything, joe. >> it really is. we're going to get barr proving once and for all that he really is donald trump's clone, he is corrupt and doesn't care the whole world knows he is corrupt. that's been established time and time again. it certainly was established yesterday. >> yup. >> before we do that, let's

really quickly, willie, set up where we are right now. news overnight, that the president of the united states, the trump administration, actually, once again, stopped the center for disease control in trying to protect americans. we saw this happen earlier in the week, where the white house tossed out some predictions about how many deaths there might be using trump administration facts. yesterday, the cdc set out guidelines, and they wanted the guidelines to go to schools, restaurants, churches, and other community establishments, to help them safely reopen their restaurants and their businesses, and to save lives. well, trump killed it. you know, it's just like the white house, willie, time and again -- forgetting donald tr i

trump specifically, forgetting the guidelines he gave to the american people with the help of dr. fauci and dr. birx. they were guidelines that would help open businesses in a safe way. he keeps pushing -- and we're going to be talking about this -- to reopen businesses in an unsafe way that will cause a second wave of deaths, that will cause the death of a lot more senior citizens, who apparently he's ready to just sacrifice so the stock market might go up a couple points, and force a second shutdown, which you and i both know will cause just tens of thousands of small businesses to go bankrupt and out of business when that happens. >> yeah. as we've said many times over the last couple months, we to get people back to work. to get the small businesses up and running. this is the week the president explicitly just came out and said, "i'm moving on.

i'm turning the page. enough is enough. we have to get people back to work." unfortunately, the testing, the science, the public health side of it has not caught up to where he is. he wants it to go away. remember, he said it was magically going to disappear. well, now he's closing his eyes, clicking his heels, and hoping it will go away, so he can get on not just with the economy for the people, but for his own president and i his re-election. every public health official, the public health guidelines, dr. fauci and dr. birx would tell him these places aren't ready to go as far as he'd like to go in terms of reopening the economies. as you say, it will make the problem worse. he has arrived at a place where he can't stand watching this anymore. he can't stand watching what's happening to his presidency. he's ready to move on. >> will it away. >> it's about politics. it's not about health. it's not about safety. it's really not about the economy. he's going to make the economy even worse by doing this. you know, he did say one thing,

mika, that was correct. >> yeah? >> when he said he was going to open up the united states, open up these businesses, try to force these businesses to open up. i think a lot of them weren't going to because they don't want to die, and they don't want their customers to die. but he said, quote, there will be more deaths. >> yeah. >> yes, we're going to open up the economy and, quote, there will be more deaths. this coming from the party of life. i don't think so. the party of life that puts children in cages. i don't think so. any suggestion that this party is the party of life is laughable at this point. when you have all of donald trump -- it seems so many of donald trump supporters in the national media now are braise i gra braisingly saying a senior citizen's life is not as valuable of those in their 30s or 40s.

i can list names. i don't have to. they're out there. they're no longer the party of life. they're a party of the bottom line. they are party of the stock market. anybody says they're the party of life, because they want to protect life before a child is born but not after, and seniors, their deaths are not tragic like the death of a 30 or 40-year-old. or a texas lieutenant governor saying, "you know what, we're willing to sacrifice ourselves. we're willing to die so the stock market can go up." no, they're not. poll after poll, americans understand how serious this is. this morning as we wake up. over 76,000 americans dead. >> oh, my god, the number. >> more americans now have died from the coronavirus, which donald trump said would magically go away in april, than died in civilian deaths in world war ii during the blitz of

london. during the battle of london. during hitler's, the nazi's bombing of the london people. >> to your point, joe, in just a few minutes, we're going to be showing our viewers really a step-by-step look at the president's words as the virus ravaged the country. you can watch what he's saying versus the death toll. it will be a very striking look at how he has not led us through this with the facts. >> how interesting that today is the 75th anniversary of victory in europe day. >> yeah. >> we got there. britain got there. our allies got there. by talking about sacrifice, understanding how difficult it was going to be. churchill never once hesitated to tell the british people in 1940 how difficult it was and how their lives were -- we have a president who has been

pollyanna from the beginning, saying, no, it's one person and soon it'll be zero. it's 11 people, soon it'll be zero. it's 15 people, soon it'll be zero. it'll magically go away in april. republican senators, relax, everything will be fine. 76,000 dead, there will be more. you don't know how many more because the cdc tried to put out the guidelines last week and the president killed it. the cdc tried to tell you and your family how to safely go back into society, the president killed it. he doesn't want you to know the truth. he doesn't want you to know how to stay safe. >> it's not just what the president says but what he hasn't done every step of the way, that many see adds up to negligence when it comes to dealing with this crisis. we're going to get more on these late est developments with the coronavirus in a moment. first -- >> we also have about a five-minute video montage of what's happened over the past several months. >> it really spells out his

words versus the reality. it is striking. we'll have that for you in just a moment. first, the justice department has dropped charges against former national security adviser michael flynn, who so t sought for months to withdraw his guilty plea for lying to the fbi as part of special counsel robert mueller's investigation of russian interference in the 2016 investigation. in the court filing, the doj argued that after reviewing the case, including comments from agents disclosed last week, flynn's fbi interview that led to the prosecution, quote, was untethered to and unjustified by the fbi's counterintelligence investigation into mr. flynn, and conducted without any legitimate investigative basis. >> wow. >> the u.s. attorney for the

district of columbia, timothy shay added, continued prosecution of this case would not serve the intere interests. he was the only one to sign it. prosecutor brandon vangrack withdrew from the case before the justice department argued it could not prove the charges. oh, my gosh. >> willie, they're saying they can't prove charges that flynn has admitted to twice in open court. he pled guilty twice. donald trump said himself that he was forced. donald trump said he had no other choice. donald trump said, "i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and he lied to the fbi." there's donald trump, in a tweet, specifically saying, "i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and the fbi.

he has pled guilty to those lies." december 2nd, 2017, willie. this is a shameful day for the department of justice. that shame lies squarely on the attorney general's shoulders. >> we should say to the audience, because so much happened since then, general flynn pleaded guilty twice to lying to investigators. this was a case the prosecutors already won twice. we'll ask senator mccaskill if she's seen that in her career. yesterday, there was an interview with cbs news. >> a crime cannot be established here. they did not have a basis for a counterintelligence investigation against flynn at that stage. >> does the fact remain that he

lied? >> well, people sometimes plead to things that turn out not to be crimes. >> what should americans take away from your actions in the flynn case today? >> i want to make sure that we restore confidence in the system. there's only one standard of justice. >> are you doing the president's bidding? >> no, i'm doing the law's bidding. >> you know you're going to take a lot of incoming, as they say in the military, for this decision. >> i'm prepared for that. i also think it's sad that, nowadays, these partisan feelings are so strong, that people have lost any sense of justice. >> when history looks back on this decision, how do you think it will be written. >> well, history is written by the winners. it largely depends on who is writing the history. >> there you go. >> wow. >> willie -- >> what was that? >> -- it's written by the winners. that tells you all you need to know. might makes right. the rule of law doesn't matter.

barr says it's sad that people are being partisan. it's a confession. he is being partisan. this is like winning a baseball game, and in the -- it's like winning a double-header. afterwards, going, "eh, we give up. we'll let you guys have this." when the fact is, again, he pled guilty twice. the precedent that is set here, that it is okay to lie to the fbi about foreign policy matters is absolutely astounding. now, that precedent won't be followed. donald trump and barr are going to be run out of town six months from now. they're going to be shamed for the rest of their lives. not that it matters to them, how much shame is going to be heaped upon their shoulders for this decision. but, you know, the message that it sends to the next american who lies to the fbi, but then

gets thrown in jail, they're going to be, "wait a second, i thought the president said it was okay to lie to the fbi. i thought the president said it was okay to lie when you're being investigated." >> yeah. i mean, the smile that ran across william barr, attorney general barr's face when he said the winners write history tells the story there. he got what he wanted. timothy shay, the interim u.s. attorney who withdrew the case, is a long-time, close aide to barr, installed in january of this year. claire mccaskill, not only were you united states senator, before that, you were a prosecutor. i just want to read to you what the prosecution said. they could not prove his admitted lies, flynn's admitted lies to the fbi about conversations with the russian ambassador, they couldn't prove they were material. yes, he pleaded guilty. he said twice he lied to investigators, but we don't believe they were material. your broad view of this ruling

here and this decision? >> well, this is a really big deal. i've never seen anything like this. i've never seen someone plead guilty to crimes and then the prosecutor basically say, "we're going to make it all go away for you." it is remarkable because what it really is sending a message is that the president has lied to the american people over and over again. he has conducted himself in a way that it's okay to lie, as president of the united states. i mean, it used to be a big deal when the president lied. not anymore. we all just assume he is going to lie every day. now, we've taken it a step further. now is it not only okay for the president to lie to the american people, it's okay for the american people to lie to the fbi. that is remarkable. what it says -- think about this for a minute, the politics of

this. obviously, this was discussed with the president and his team. so it's six months from the election. they don't think it is going to harm him, with his supporters, that they dismiss a case, in essence, where someone has pled guilty. i mean, this is -- this says a lot about the hold that donald trump has on a certain segment of our country. i just am stunned that this has occurred. i think about the career prosecutors. when you are the elected prosecutor, as i was in kansas city, or as barr is for the whole country, you have to first think about the constitution and the truth. then you also have to think about your team. you have to think about the fbi agents and the thousands of prosecutors out there doing their best every day. he has just slapped them all in

the face. >> let's bring in also nbc news correspondent julia ainsley, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, nbc news national security analyst jeremy bash. julia, you've covered this justice department very closely over the years. just put the pieces together for us here. michael flynn pleads guilty. this new interim u.s. attorney is installed, timothy shay, who as i said, was a close aide to william barr. now, a few months later, the case is being withdrawn, despite two guilty pleas. >> right, willie. what we're seeing is a slow unraveling, very methodical unraveling, that william barr has been doing of the mueller investigation. he's done that since the day he took office as attorney general. we saw him make decisions not to prosecute when mueller left that open-ended. he said that congress should not decide that, even though it seemed that mueller wanted to leave the question of obstruction to congress. and then, most recently in the

fall, we saw william barr go against the inspector general of the justice department and start to tease out the results of this independent investigation. independent investigation that william barr has set up from john durham, saying that is a criminal investigation and that he believes that john durham will find bias that led to the opening of this investigation in the first place, what became the mueller investigation. we've seen him pour cold water on this again and again. this though is unprecedented. something i want to point out, as well, is this judge, that's where i'm watching now, judge emmett sullivan has been independent and hasn't hidden how he feels about michael flynn. i was going back to 2018, the first day where we thought we'd get a sentencing for michael flynn. instead, flynn decided to delay because the judge seemed to be so upset with himme. he said, "i cannot hide my disdain and disgust for the crimes committed here."

now, we have to see, even though the justice department filed this, that they want to withdraw the case, it's still up to judge sullivan. judge sullivan has also been very tight on the trump administration policies on other things. overruled jeff sessions' asylum ban. this judge is not afraid to make his opinions known. >> law fair wrote this, based on the justice department today took a greater leap, that it is perfectly legal for a public official to lie through his teeth repeatedly to fbi agents who show up to interview him. that's specifically what barr argued in the brief. i don't see how any judge allows this to stand. >> so president trump told reporters that he brought up the

russia investigation with russian president vladimir putin yesterday. the official white house readout of the call doesn't mention that. >> huh. >> instead, it says the two leaders spoke to commemorate the 75th anniversary of victory in europe day and discussed the global pandemic, among other issues. here's what the president said on what he told putin about the russia investigation. >> they're a very important nation. we're the most powerful nation. they're a very powerful nation. why would we not be dealing with each other? but the russia hoax is absolute dishonest hoax. made it very difficult for our nation and their nation to deal. and we discussed that. i said, "you know, it is a very appropriate time because things are falling out now and coming in line, showing what a hoax this whole investigation was. it was a total disgrace. i wouldn't be surprised if you

see a lot of things happen over the next number of weeks. this is just one piece of a very dishonest puzzle." >> you know, he can say hoax as many times as he wants to say hoax. it doesn't change the fact that he would be sitting in jail right now if he weren't president of the united states and if there weren't a corrupt attorney general. he committed one act of obstruction of justice after another. robert mueller said, "i can't get to that," as far as whether he can be charged in the criminal complaint, because he is president of the united states. justice department guidelines don't allow me to do that. make no mistake of it, donald trump committed one crime after another. you may not want to hear it. maybe your relatives don't want to hear it. it will be in the history books pause because it lays out perfectly as

an obstruction of justice case. of course, he can call it a hoax all he wants. we got the quotes. we've got the quotes. there's one quote after another where donald trump admits that he committed obstruction of justice that would throw either you or me in jail if we had done the same thing. jeremy, it is so fascinating. flynn, he lies about a meeting with russia's ambassador. trump is talking to putin about this case being dismissed. it reminded me -- and i went back to look -- that in may of 2017, do you remember when that same russian ambassador was in the white house, and the foreign minister was in the white house, but they wouldn't let any american press in the white house? this was what donald trump said to the russians on that day, "i just fired the head of the fbi. he was crazy.

a real nutjob. i faced great pressure because of russia. that's been taken off." the president of the united states admitting that fbi investigation on him acting improperly with russia caused him great pressure, "i faced great pressure because of russia. that's been taken off." the president immediately running to the russian foreign minister, immediately running to the russian ambassador, and bragging that he fired the director of the fbi to stop the russia investigation. he is so stupid. he didn't realize -- he really is just so stupid. he didn't realize that if you fire the director of the fbi because he is investigating you, because of dealings with russia, that everybody is lying about in

your entire administration, that's just going to cause the american people to want more investigation. so here it is, it comes full circle. he hires his corrupt roy cohn. corrupt roy cohn throe throws o case where the guy pled guilty twice. donald trump said he is a liar. he lied to the vice president about his meeting with the russians. he lied to the fbi about his meeting with the russians. he is such a liar. i had to fire him. yesterday, barr decides to throw out that case. trump celebrates, calls and talks to the russians yet again on the other side of this, bragging like he did about firing the fbi director. yesterday, bragging about how his corrupt roy cohn threw out a case of his national security adviser lying to the fbi about

contacts with russia. jeremy, where do we begin? >> the russia information, jves joe, seems quaint, because it was superseded by the ukraine scandal, leading to the president's impeachment, and now the coronavirus scandal. to look back at the origins of the russia investigation, career counterintelligence, career law enforcement professionals were looking at russian interference in the 2016 election to benefit donald trump. once the career protefessionals blew the whistle on that, the obama administration sanctioned russia for the interference. the next monment, what happened? the incoming team of the new president, led by mike pence, called the russians and said, "don't worry about it. we'll take care of you. the sanctions will be lifted." when the fbi was investigating this matter and learned of those conversations, they naturally asked flynn about those. he covered them up.

he was untruthful. he lied directly to the fbi. now, we know what he lied about. we know the setting. we know the context. what we still don't know even to this day, joe, is why. why did trump and his team want to cover up the fact that they were relaxing sanctions on the russians? what was in that secret channel that we still don't know to this day? i think those questions have yet to be answered. yes, i think yesterday's filing, which was a de facto pardon by the president of mike pence, in effect, was, i don't you know, we know what it is. it is about giving you political cronies a get out of jail free card. we don't know the underlying national security implications. we have to find those out. >> jeremy bash and julia ainsley, thank you both for your reporting this morning. julia, say hi to mary for me. back to the latest with the coronavirus. an "associated press" analysis has found many governors across the u.s. are disregarding or

creatively interpreting white house guidelines and easing their state's lockdown measures. the "ap" determined that 17 states have not experienced a 14-day downward trajectory in new cases or infection rates, a key bench mamark set by the whi house and, yet, many of those are moving forward with reopening plans. while other states, like georgia, because of the broadway in which the guidelines are written, have technically managed to meet the criteria to reopen, despite not seeing those declines in cases. the "ap" reports that the white house has not been specific about how states should calculate the 14-day downward trajectory. ge depending on how you calculate it, a state might pass or fail. meanwhile, president trump, yesterday, again, placed the responsibility on the governors. >> 20 states by the account of

multiple organizations right now that haven't met the guidelines that you set here, partially or completely to reopen. what do you say to the states that haven't met the guidelines and are starting the process now? >> we've looked at all of them and spoken to many or most of the governors. as you know, we give leeway to the governors. these are governors that have done a good job in, i think, all cases. i have some that i don't think are doing a particularly good job, but for the most part, they have. these governors have. we give them the leeway. the governors have great power as to that given by us. we want them to do that. we rely on them. we trust them. hopefully they're making the right decisions. >> let's bring in nbc news correspondent hans nichols. he is live for us at the white house. good morning. every signal the president and the white house have given to the states and to the country is that it is time to turn the page. remember, earlier this week, they talked about winding down

the task force. the president later amended that to, "well, we have it, but it is changing away from the public health side of it to the economic side of it." what is the white house saying directly to states, if anything at all? >> reporter: depends on the day, really. they're saying sometimes you need to follow the guidelines. april 16th, when the guidelines came out, those criteria, the language was states must pass these thresholds before they can start opening up, three faphase. all the rhetoric from the white house and the president is flexibility. senior administration officials, junior administration officials throughout, everyone wants this to be a state-led effort. part of it has to do with sometimes their commitment to federalism. it also has to do with a little political blame shifting. they want the states to own this because they think they're in the best place, the best position, really, to figure out what's going on. we saw a version of this yesterday when that cdc report,

the white house said they sent back for revisions to the cdc. the white house really wants this to be at the state level. when you look at what the cdc is trying to, do they want it to be national. that tension was really exposed yesterday. now, the clearest we heard was from dr. birx last night, saying they think the cdc document needs more edits. edits and rejections, at least in my view, in my experience as a journalist, tend to be the same thing. guys? >> hans, what are dr. birx and dr. fauci either saying or at least thinking as they watch the president this week say expli t explicitly when he was in arizona, "we have to move on, we have to move past this," despite the fact cases are going up across the country. we crossed 75,000 deaths. yes, they've come down in hot spots like new york city, but it's spreading across the country. what do the doctors on the task force think as they hear the president say, "time to move on"? >> reporter: they seem to be in

broad agreement. there's not a lot of daylight we're picking up between dr. birx and dr. fauci. i say that, and in moments, there's going to be a tweet that one is leaving the task force. but the president seems to be em praising them. they seem to be giving the president the advice he wants to hear, and that is, you can stay ahead of this virus' spread by the testing, by going in and having certain testing regimens to make sure it doesn't pop back up, that you can do contact tracing, and that you don't need a test every day. of course, we saw the white house and the president himself say something different yesterday. that is, everyone near him is going to be tested on a daily basis. i just walked to the white house. there are new questionnaires they're asking reporters coming in on what sort of symptoms they might be presenting. the tension is -- and we heard this from the press secretary -- they don't think testing on a daily basis is good for the rest of the country, but clearly, that's the protocol at the white house.

willie? >> real quick, we got reporting from you yesterday that a personal valet, somebody around the president quite a bit, tested positive for coronavirus. has that changed the president's view? if he's that close, maybe wearing a mask or observing social distancing in the white house? >> reporter: doesn't seem to be a change on the mask policimepo. which is an individual policy. the president announced yesterday he'd be tested every day, opposed to sporadically. the testing regimen may change. in terms of how people are behaving in the white house, as far as we can tell, that hasn't changed. guys? >> nbc's hans nichols at the white house. thanks, as always. mika? the coronavirus has now claimed more than 76,000 lives here in the u.s. despite the president early on insisting to anyone who would listen that he had it all under control. >> we have to get our country open. >> can you say, sir, what

metrics you will use to make the decision? >> metrics right here. that's my metrics. that's all i can do. >> the worries about a pandemic at this point? >> not at all. we have it totally under control. it's one person. we think we have it under control. by april, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, miracul s miraculously goes away. when it gets warm, historically, that has been able to kill the virus. that's around the corner, so that'll be a great thing. numbers are going to get progressively better as we go away. go back six months, three months ago, nobody would have predicted. when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done. i don't think it is inevitable. they say, oh, he should do more. there's nothing more you can do. we haven't seen an increase, and people are getting better. almost everybody we see is

getting better. it could be every, too. the democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. they can't even count their votes in iowa. they tried the impeachment hoax. this is their new hoax. you know, we did something that's been pretty amazing. we're 15 people in this massive country. the press is in hysteria mode. cnn, fake news, and their camera just went off. unfortunately, one person passed away overnight. since the early stages of the foreign outbreak, my administration has taken the most aggressive action in modern history. that really turned out to be a lifesaver in a sense. big lifesaver. some people will have this and won't even go to a doctor or hospital and get better. anybody that needs a test can get a test. they're there. they have the tests. the tests are beautiful. tests are perfect. the transcription was perfect. we're doing a great job with it. it will go away. because of what i did and what

the administration did with china, we have 32 deaths at this point. other countries that are smaller countries have many, many deaths. this is a contagious virus. it is incredible. it is something that we have tremendous control of. talking about the virus? no, that's not under control for any place in the world. >> you had said it was. >> i was talking about what we're doing is under control. i'm not talking about the virus. i've always known this is a real -- this is a pandemic. i've felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. we have very great approval numbers. people like the job we're doing. the only thing we weren't prepared for was the media. the media has not treated it fairly. >> what do you say to americans who are watching you right now who are scared? >> i say you're a terrible reporter. that's what i say. >> sir? >> mr. president -- >> i think it is a very nasty question. i've been right a lot. let's see what happens. >> a month ago, the cdc had an initial test that failed. at that moment, late february, you said it's perfect.

it wasn't perfect.well i said - >> in late february. >> what was perfect was my conversation with the head of ukraine. that was another whole scandal nonsense, a total, you know, witch hunt. but nobody ever expected a thing like this. we have to get back to work. i think we can start by opening up certain parts of the country. on easter, probably, there could be a peak. that could be a peak period. that could be the peak, sadly to say, that could be the peak number of deaths before it starts coming down. this is going to be gone. it'll be gone. hopefully gone for a long time. what do you have to lose? i'll say it again, what do you have to lose? take it. i really think they should take it. hydroxychloroquine. try it, if you'd like. any in this room think a thing like this could happen? it happened. they don't have to appreciate me. i don't care about me. ask the question differently, why don't you say, it's gotten off to a tremendous start, but

there are some little glitches which, by the way, have been worked out. i wish we had a fair media in this country, and we really don't. speaking of unfair, go ahead. we have to get our country open. >> can you say which metrics you'll use to make the decision? >> the metrics right there. that's my metrics. it's all i can do. there is always a risk. this is genius we're fighting. we're fighting this hidden enemy, which is genius, okay? it is genius. the way it's attacked so many countries. all i'm saying is this, how do you close down the greatest economy in the history of the world when, on january 17th, you have no cases and no death? >> mr. president -- >> when on january 21st, you have one case and no deaths. think of that. what we inherited from the previous administration wuas totally broken. we inherited poor testing and now we have great testing. i'm instructing my organization to stop the funding of the world

health organization. it should have been told to us early and a lot sooner. people knew it was happening and didn't want to talk about it. the head of the country doesn't have to say, "stay in." these people are smart people. no one thought this could have happened. we inherited a lot of garbage. they had tests that were no good. they had all the stuff that was no good. it might not come back at all. it might not come back at all. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i am convinced of that. >> then i see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? you see it gets in the lungs, and it dusz a tremendous number on the lungs. interesting to check that. you'll have to use medical doctors with. it sounds interesting to me. i'm not a doctor. i'm like a person that has a good you know what. what auto pr.

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joining us now, pulitzer prize winning columnist and associated editor of the "washington post," and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. gene, your latest opinion piece in the "washington post" is titled, quote, democrats need to use republicans' playbook to make sure trump loses. you write, in part, democrats learn from your former republican foes. pull heartstrings, wave the flag, and go straight for the

jugular. political warfare in this country has long been asymmetrical. democrats appeal to voters with arguments based on reason, fairness, and economic self-interest. there's nothing wrong with any of that. but defeating president trump and his gop enablers is too important to leave any weapons on the shelf. democrats need to learn to use the tools that republicans have long wielded, with tremendous skill and success. emotion, patriotism, and cultural affinity. democrats need to drive an emotional wedge of their own between the mourning trump has given us and the new morning that will dawn when he is gone. i just want you to clarify what you're saying, gene. there's a lot of tactics being used by republicans that i don't think is good for anybody. >> yeah. that's true, like lying, for example. >> right. >> voter suppression.

>> exactly. defaming people, bullying them, being negligent, right. >> exactly. that's hard of the point. those need to be pointed out and, you know, denounced. but it is true, i believe, that republicans have, over the years, been very much more proficient and successful at using emotion in politics. emotion is important. you know, in my example that i use, is the mourning in america, m-o-u-r-n-i-n-g, the ad the lincoln project came out with on monday. the lincoln project, of course, the former republican strategist, steve schmidt, george conway, rick wilson, and others. it's just a stunningly good ad,

to take off the ronald reagan "mourning in america" ad. it uses images and simplicity and goes for high impact. it's successful. i mean, for one thing, obviously, drove the president crazy. he was up until 1:00 a.m. tweeting at the people behind the ad. but i think it's stunningly effective with voters, too. i've written this before, i wish democrats would learn to use th that. would learn that using emotion in this way is a good thing, and it's successful. it helps to win elections, and they need to win this election. >> claire, in many ways, president trump is inflicting the damage on himself as he looks to re-election. you look at that polling out of monmouth yesterday that shows a

20-point spread among women, between him and joe biden, and statistically tied among men in the poll, a group he won by 12 points over hillary clinton. if you were working on a campaign, the biden campaign, against donald trump, how would you be running against him, sort of in parallel with the way he is effectively running against himself, the way he's managed the pandemic? >> well, you know, i miss seeing in real time all of you. i am virtually hugging eugene robinson right now. i agree so much with what he is saying. americans are emotional right now, for a good reason. they're emotional. they're worried about their siff safety. they have strong feelings even mo for or against donald trump. there has to be a campaign that taps into that emotion, that moves that emotion from

something that is -- to something visceral, to something people want to go out and work for the candidate. they want to contact their friends and neighbors. they want to make sure that everyone votes and that they can't suppress the vote. that is really what they're going to have to build. a lot of that emotional crescendo can be done around the president's lies. he has taken our country to the gutter by lying constantly. that is not something americans like. i don't care if you're for donald trump. you don't like that he lies all the time. and i really think making him a liar and showing the damage that he has done in an emotional way is the most important thing the biden campaign can do. >> then there's this story we want to cover here now. georgia police arrested a white father and son yesterday and charged them with the killing of

25-year-old armaud arbery, a black man, whose death earlier this year attracted widespread outrage following the release of cell phone footage showing his fatal shooting. according to the "new york times," much of that anger was due to the fact that no charges had been brought against the father, gregory mcmichael, and his son, travis. the georgia bureau of investigation said that both men were taken into custody and were charged with aggravated assault and murder. in a statement, the state police agency said that travis mcmichael fired the shot that killed arbery. the mcmichaels told police they pursued arbery in a pickup truck after seeing him running. maintain he later violently attacked them, and they were acting in self-defense. the mcmichaels claimed that they thought he was a burglar. arbery's family says he was out for a jog. during a briefing yesterday in

the oval office, president trump was asked about it by nbc's peter alexander. >> in georgia right now, there's been dramatic video of an unarmed, black georgia man shot by police while on a jog. what is your reaction? >> i'm getting a full report this evening. my heart goes out to the parents and to the loved ones of the young gentleman. it is a very sad thing. but i will be given a full report evening. >> vice president seen thaven't to be clear? >> no, i haven't. >> joe biden addressed arbery's brutal attack yesterday during a round table with african-american lawmakers in jacksonville, florida, saying the incident amounted to a, quote, lynching before our eyes, and demanded a transparent investigation. >> by now, many of us have seen that harrowing footage of

ahmaud arbery, out on a jog on a beautiful day in february in florida, in georgia, shot down in cold blood, essentially lynched before our very eyes, 2020 style. his family and the country deserves justice, and they deserve it now. they deserve a swift, full, and transparent investigation into this brutal murder. but our nation deserves it, as well. we need to reckon with this. this goes on. these vicious acts call to mind the darkest chapters of our history. >> you know, gene robinson, this, if you talk to people that have been running the president's campaign the last couple years, they love to talk about how they'll do great with black voters. oh, we'll get 15%, 20%. but any time there is an opportunity for donald trump to actually speak up and speak out for the rights of black

americans, certainly in cases like this, he's always mute. he had a chance even in the most dramatic case going back in 2017 to charlottesville. he chose, instead, to preach moral equivocation between nazis and people that were protesting against nazis. then, of course, sad, pathetic propagandists tried to clean that up for him. it just didn't work. he had david duke thanking donald trump and welcoming him to the team at charlottesville. here we are, three years later, still hasn't learned his lesson, basketba babbling around, "oh, i haven't seen the video." how couldn't he know the young man's name? if he is expecting to do well with black voters in 2020 -- you know he's going to try to split the baby here once again, most

likely. >> yeah. no, look, he's failing on every level in this. he failed to inform himself about the case. i also can't believe that the president of the united states hasn't seen the video or doesn't know enough about it to comment. >> he watches -- gene, he watches more tv than all of us. >> all he does is watch tv. >> exactly. >> he sits and watches tv all day. >> how'd he miss it? >> he's been seeing it. >> is there a network not covering it? >> no. sorry. go ahead, gene. >> no, there's no network not covering it. host not wat he watched it, saw it, but he won't acknowledge it, probably. but he's also failing on the level with his justice department. why is the justice department silent on what is obviously a hate crime? why is the fbi not also involved in this investigation?

this is -- you know, if you look at it in the starkest political terms, here's an opportunity for the trump administration to demonstrate that it cares about, you know, deadly violence against unarmed black men by white vigilantes. you know, that shouldn't be a controversial issue. it is an opportunity for him, perhaps, to at least try to gain some footing, by ut he doesn't it. he is rhetoric. he doesn't care, and i think voters understand that and will note that as they vote in the fall. >> claire, keeping you busy, putting back on your prosecutor's hat this morning. but this murder, this incident took place on february the 23rd, two and a half months ago. it was only because a video was posted online on tuesday of this

week that public pressure was ramped up to look into this case. today, i should point out, would be ahmaud arbery's 26th birthday. this is may the 8th. just now, these two men have been arrested and brought up on charges of murder. from what you know of this case, why did it take so long for it to get the attention that it deserved? the gbi, georgia bureau of investigation, took up the case two days ago. one day later, they had an arrest in the case. the question is, why did it take two months to get there? >> well, clearly, this prosecutor's office blew this. i mean, they clearly made, in my opinion, a biased decision to try to write this off as some kind of bizarre self-defense. you know, in america now, everybody is supposed to be carrying a gun. we passed all these bizarre laws about stand your ground. i'm sure that this prosecutor is regretting the way he handled

this. now that the bright light has been brought upon it, it reveals the incredible bias of the charging system in this particular county. and i think eugene is right. i mean, where is the fbi? there is some jurisdiction here because this appear to be a hate crime. they need to, you know, in many instances, where there is a police shooting, the fbi is in immediately. the fact that there's dead silence, not only from the white house -- i guess barr is too busy saying it is okay to lie to the fbi to worry about the brutal murder of an innocent man out for a jog unarmed. being hunted like a dog by people. so i just think that this is going to be probably the end of that prosecutor's career and, frankly, it probably should be. >> yeah.

claire mccaskill and eugene robinson, thank you both. we'll be following this. coming up, where has the president's cabinet been during this coronavirus pandemic? nbc's heidi has new reporting on the response by the president's top agencies and secretaries who run them. plus, more on the justice department dropping charges against a major figure in the russia probe. former acting u.s. solicitor general joins us to discuss the doj's decision to drop the case against michael flynn. "morning joe" will be right back. i just love hitting the open road and telling people

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he was an innocent man. he is a great gentleman. he was targeted by the obama administration. he was targeted in order to try and take down a president. a thing like this has never happened before. the history of our country.

i hope a lot of people are going to pay a big price because they're dishonest, crooked people. they're scum. i say it a lot, they're scum. they're human scum. this should never have happened in this country. they got caught. very dishonest people. much more than dishonest, it's treason. it is treason. i'm very happy for general flynn. he was a great warrior, and he still is a great warrior. now, in my book, he is an even greater warrior. >> yeah, he does, for a guy that's in the middle of a pandemic, and talking about bringing the country together, and a guy who has lied to the american people for as much as he's lied, seen the death toll shoot up to 76,000, he sure does talk tough. >> yeah. >> calls fbi scum. accuses members of the intel community of treason. tough words coming from a guy

who, himself, willie geist, said that he was left with no choice but to fire general flynn because general flynn was a liar. because general flynn lied through his teeth to the fbi. because general flynn lied through his teeth to his own vice president, mike pence. mike pence. he was very concerned he lied to him. in fact -- >> look at that. >> -- this is what donald trump wrote in real time. >> amazing. >> he can call the men and women who are trying to protect human families scum, for some sick reason that only he understands. why he keeps calling law enforcement officers scum. donald trump, on december 2nd, 2017, said, "i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and the fbi.

he has pled guilty to those lies." willie, now, it is the fbi agents who actually followed the law that he is calling scum. it's the fbi agents who actually did what the fbi agents would do to you or me or anybody on this show or anybody watching this show. let me be very clear, okay? here's the thing, folks, don't inject bleach into your bloodstream, all right? >> don't listen to him on that. >> don't try to shove uv lights up your nose. >> nope. >> not good for ya. >> don't. >> don't take hydroxychloroquine, right? don't take it the way the president tells you to take it because, well, his own people say it could kill you. bad for your heart to do that. >> mm-hmm. >> and don't lie to the fbi.

you see, because donald trump lives by one set of rules, and you have to live by another set of rules. donald trump protects the powerful. he defends the president of china. he defends presidents and powerful people all over the globe. he defends the autocratic leader of russia. he kowtows to the powerful. he lives by one set of standards, and you have to live by another set of standards. don't inject the bleach. don't stick the lights inside your body. don't lie to the fbi. yet, as some -- in some sick and twisted way, willie, this morning, we play clips of the president of the united states calling the fbi, quote, scum. let me say that again. the president of the united states is calling the men and women of the federal bureau of investigation scum for simply doing their job.

and accusing them of, quote, treason, for simply doing their job. talk about a low point in american political culture. >> well, in some ways, general flynn became, since the time the president wrote that tweet, saying he had to lie to vice president pence, flynn became a symbol of the victimization of the deep state. general flynn was the victim of the deep state, those at the fbi, the low-lives, dirty cops, all the terms president trump used to describe these people. now we know why he didn't pardon general flynn. he knew the justice department was about to take care of it, and attorney general barr installed timothy shea, the interim u.s. attorney in d.c., and he knew he'd take care of it. yesterday, he did, withdrawing the prosecution.

despite the fact that general flynn himself pleaded guilty twice to lying. with us this morning, we have msnbc national affairs analyst, co-host of showtime's "the circus" and editor in chief of the "recount," john heilemann. bureau chief elizabeth. and now a legal contributor, neal katyal. neal, you covered the russia investigation so closely. this goes back to conversations that general flynn had during the transition in late 2006, talking to the russian ambassador about easing sanctions and saying, "don't worry. we know the obama administration expelled some people. we'll take care of that." what is your view of prosecutors, despite the fact they had two guilty pleas here, withdrawing its case yesterday? >> i think it is outrageous and indefensible, and one of the greatest threats to the rule of law that trump has done in his three years. i mean, this is really serious

stuff. you've got a guy who was formerly the president's top aide, the national security adviser, who twice pleads guilty in 2017 and 2018, saying, "look, i did it." you have the president at the time saying, "look, you lied not just to the fbi but to the vice president, and i'm firing you." then, yesterday, the justice department just decides all of a sudden to drop this prosecution. you know, it's such a corrosive thing to the rule of law. the idea that justice is supposed to be blind. that you don't get third, fourth, fifth looks by prosecutors just because you happen to be trump's friend. now, there's one form of justice for trump's pals, and one form for the rest of us. that is, you know, the most corrosive thing one could imagine to the rule of law. >> john heilemann, margaret brennan has tweeted out that on "face the nation" in 2017, she has a clip of mike pence --

>> straight to her face. >> -- mike pence saying, at the same time, "i can tell you that flynn lied to me, and the president did the right thing." so you have the president saying, "i had to fire flynn. he lied." you have the vice president saying, "flynn lied to my face. he had to be fired." you had flynn going to the court twice saying, "i'm guilty. i'm guilty." now, here we are a couple years later, and suddenly, it's the fbi who are scum? it's the fbi who are committing treason according to donald trump. when the president, the vice president, and michael flynn himself admitted he was guilty and had to be fired. >> yeah.

i couldn't agree more with my friend neal katyal about there have been so many deputatiutat troubled me, and should trouble everyone, republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, about the way justice is prosecuted and not prosecuted in many administration over the course of the last three or so years. i really think this one is at the pinnacle of things that should be disquieting to people who think that -- who rely on the notion that the justice department, in some measure, still pursues justice in an apolitical way. i think it is just so -- i said since the attorney general came in, since bill barr became attorney general, he is easily the most troubling member of the trump administration. i think it's been obvious that he's been pursuing a totally political agenda from the moment he walked in the door. we talked about it a hundred time on this show, joe. you know the exercise of raw

power that barr executed on donald trump's behalf with respect to, basically, throttling, killing, spinning, destroying any public prospect of the mueller report being read in the proper way, and read for what it said. the proper way, read for the words on the page. it was one of the most extraordinary exercises of raw power i've seen on the part of an attorney general, serving a personal interest of the president. this is in that category. you pointed out that what the history is here, but not remembering -- or leaving ott what happened after mike pence and donald trump said those things and sent those tweets. what happened after that was throughout, we've heard trump, on his twitter feed, in interviews, in press conferences, expressing sympathy for flynn. saying he wished -- saying flynn was a good man. saying flynn was distrooeated,

maltreated. he's dropped hints. we've seen this, in some sense, coming the last couple years. yet, you thought there was no possible way that any attorney general, given these circumstances, given the convictions, given the repeated admissions of guilt, given the plea agreements they led to, all of those thing things, that you walk in and somehow get out of this. yet, here we are. i just think it speaks to lawlessness. lawless lns leslessness at the nation's top law enforcement agency. that agency now operating in a purely political, totally -- a totally political and way in which, in the pursuit of political ends, abuse of power in the most naked way, is just the order of the day now at the doj. >> it's been that way. bill barr has let americans know he is corrupt, he is a liar. he didn't care. he did not care because, as he said in the interview, might makes right. the winners get to write

history. he thinks -- i moaean, that's h view of justice. you look back at the mueller report, too. i can't let it go. the president lies through his teeth to the american people. i know donald trump thinks his supporters are stupid idiots, just bumbling red necks. i've heard him talk about, in insulting ways, people from alabama, mocking people that went to the university of alabama like i did. talking about their stupid accents. i've heard this from donald trump. he thinks people that support him are stupid and dumb. i just -- i'm going to stand up for them and i'm going to defend them this morning. not only is he lying to them, but he had barr lie to them. mika, what's so sad, is barr twisted all the words. he twisted the words from the proper context. they -- he wretched the words from their proper context in the

mueller report. you know, now they're desperately trying to stop information from getting out, to show just how badly he lied to the american people in his letter summarizing that. they're begging the supreme court to make it as -- well, to cover it up, basically, is what they're trying to do. and here we see barr is still at it. now, again, he pushed to get a man released that the president of the united states said lied to the fbi, and the vice president said had to be fired. the vice president said he lied to his face about meetings with russians and had to be fired. so here we are, couple years later. donald trump is now calling them, quote, scum, law enforcement officers, scum. >> elizabeth, how is your paper looking at this? i would think there's some really serious questions that need to be directed to the vice president right now.

you would think, given what he said on "face the nation," out loud, that flynn lied, and the president did the right thing, you would think he'd be very, very upset with these developments. >> well, what this really is is part of the dismantlement by the trump administration of the mueller administration. it is the latest in the series of steps we've seen. don't forget, there is a prosecutor in connecticut looking into the origins of the russia investigation. this is a piece of that, former prosecutors are shocked by this. they say they have never seen anything like this. the justification that the justice department gave for dropping this is that they acknowledge that flynn, yes, he lied to the fbi, lied to investigators, but they say the lie one not material to the investigation, which is kind of

hard to understand, given that he lied about his contacts with the russian ambassador to the united states at the time. talking about sanctions. this is hard to imagine, that this was not material to the investigation. so we move on. again, there will be other shoes to drop. we will see, again, there's still the investigation, the durham investigation under way. so there should be, perhaps, more to come. >> willie? >> neal, i want to ask you about a highly regarded prosecutor who withdrew himself from this case. he had been working on it just before the motion was filed, to withdraw the entire case. what does that signal to you, and what more are you hearing among your former colleagues and friends in the legal community about why he stepped away from this? >> it's past a canary in a coal mine. it is a serious thing. brandon is considered one of the top prosecutors and well respected on both sides of the aisle. he withdrew from the flynn case

yesterday, moments before the deal was done to drop charges. i think, you know, fortunately, the judge has some control over this. the judge can inquire into why did brandon van grack leave the case? why did no career prosecutor sign the filing that barr filed, saying he was dropping charges. should the judge drop those charges. last year, the trump administration got caught in the supreme court lying about their census decision in adding the citizenship question, leading the supreme court to strike down what trump was doing. in response, while the case was continuing in the lower courts, the career justice department folks tried to withdraw from the case. again, assuming they had the same kind of conscience objections to the trump position that we saw with brandon yesterday. the judge refused to let them withdraw and ordered an inquiry into it.

at that point, barr dropped the whole case all together. i think a similar thing very well should happen here. the judge should investigate, why did this career prosecutor leave? why did no career prosecutor sign what happened yesterday? how can it be, as joe was saying a moment ago, that these assaults on the fbi and the justice department are really true? i mean, this is, you know, what the attorney general said in the filing is the most corrosive thing to the justice department. they're basically saying, "we can't trust you." barr sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, not like the attorney general of the united states. >> neal, you're also writing about another legal question this morning in the "washington post" that deserves attention. that is, president trump effectively asking the justice department to lean on the supreme court to strike down the affordable care act. what's your take on that, and

how would the justice department go about that? >> i mean, it is impossible to outline all the things this justice department is doing to destroy american democracy. here we do. here's another one. so the affordable care act, signed into law by congress and the president back many years ago, guarantees health insurance for millions of americans. it's been upheld twice by the supreme court. the trump administration is now going into the supreme court and saying, "look, we found this technical flaw with the act. now, because of that flaw, the entire act should be struck down. health insurance for millions should be removed." during a pandemic, no less. now, this is a betrayal of everything the justice department stands for. it is supposed to defend laws of all stripes. when i was there as acting solicitor general, i defended laws, including one that made me physically ill. but that's what you do. that's the job. you're the nation's lawyer. you're not the cheerleader for some, i don't you knyou know, pe

that wants to get rid of legislation you don't like. if you don't like it, get a law passed in congress to remove it. don't go run to the supreme court with a cockamamy legal theory and say, "oh, strike the whole thing down, court, because we don't have the votes in congress to do it ourselves." >> neal katyal, thank you so much for being with us, as always. we greatly appreciate it. john, let's talk about the coronavirus. the death toll this morning over 76,000. it seemed not so long ago, we were in the 40,000s and the 50,000s. it seems like this is moving at a much faster pace than any of us expected. 76,700. i said that any of us expected. i'm saying, the pace has quickened even since new york, the curve in new york sort of flattened out a little bit. now, of course, because of a lot of different things, it's spreading across the rest of the country.

we're already into the 70s. obviously, we'll be into the 80s by next week. yet, overnight, news breaks. "new york times" reports that the cdc tried to get out information to churches, to small businesses, to communities on how to open safely. donald trump killed it. >> right. >> killed the memo. just like last week, the cdc was predicting that these numbers were going to jump, just like they're doing right now. donald trump killed that, too. thought it was overly pessimistic. yet again, these numbers keep skyrocketing. we've been hearing about the plateau. there was going to be a plateau. well, there is no plateau. the numbers just keep spiking, and the cdc said they could double by june the 1st. >> right. we saw those numbers earlier in

the week, joe, the forecasts, projections that showed may and june being an absolute horror show. you know, who is really surpr e surprised, if 43 states, i believe, by the end of this weekend, we'll have 43 states that are in some state of reopening. none of them having met the guidelines from the trump administration in terms of what it was supposed to be happening with their cases. the decline in their cases in coronavirus. none of them. yet the reopening is now afoot. of course, as the reopening begins, and the laxity of social distancing that's been signalled by the white house, and undertake bin the governunder t underta undertake undertaken by the governors, some in a safe way, not in a more safe way, but still prematurity, you'll see the charts. the place where i live, new york, we have the curve flattened. the numbers are on the descent.

yet, everywhere else in the country, that's not true. everywhere else in the country, you see states like minnesota -- >> john -- >> -- and nebraska are on the rise. >> buddy, let me interrupt for a second. to go back -- i apologize because of the delay. i need to throw something else in there while you're talking about this. abc just put a poll out that shows two-thirds of americans say america is not ready to reopen. that it's dangerous for america to reopen. >> right. >> two-thirds. only one-third says, "yup, we're ready to reopen." against this backdrop, something you and i have been talking about an awful lot, donald trump, once again, puts himself on the wrong side, not only of safety, puts himself on the wrong side of politics. >> right. yes, so what's the answer? why? you know, why with the cdc, why with the reopening, why with all of it? it's all politics, joe. we're going to get these jobs

numbers in about an hour, right, and they're going to be catastrophic. donald trump is not a great student of history, but he knows what it means to a sitting president who is going to face the kind of economy that we're on track for him to face come november. he knows that that alone, by every historic metric, consigns him to losing. so he is desperately flailing now, and understanding that, hey, it's true. the main detthing as to if a president will be re-elected is the economy. he says in a primal way, "i have to get the economy started. i don't care about anything else. don't tell me about the rise in the infections and the death toll in every state, other than new york. i don't care. we have to reopen. we have to reopen now." when confronted with the next obvious question, which is,

"aren't you going to get blamed for that, mr. president," you heard him yesterday, saying, "it's up to the governors. i have nothing to do with this." why is he shutting down something from the cdc? it would mean the federal government would have to own this. he is washing his hands of this, everything to do with coronavirus. he was forced into keeping the task force, after he was going to walk away from that this week. he wants to be in a position where he is seen all about restarting the stalled, dying economy, and anything to do with the public health issue is not his problem. put it on the governors. he said it yesterday. i'll remind you, last thing i'll say, when two weeks ago he was telling us he was all powerful, that "i have the power, absolute power." yesterday, he was like, "the governors have all the power. alo look to them. it's up to them." that's the game, right? restart the economy, cheerlead for the economy, and let the governors handle the public health repercussions of

about to happen. it is cynical and so desperate but all political. all about politics. >> he's done it from the beginning. he is still doing it on testing. it's just not working. again, you look at the death count. it continues to go up. we've expected it to go up. everybody expected it to go up. you look at the numbers, and it is still shocking every morning, how quickly it is going up. elisabeth, this cynical game the president is playing has him, again, scrubbing cdc documents that warn of rising death tolls, has him scrubbing cdc documents, and even tell restaurants how to open and be more safe. he's scrubbing those documents. this is also happening in other parts of the country. in arizona, the arizona governor is doing the same thing. he stopped a study at an arizona university that was projecting the number of infections and deaths in that state. because they just don't want the truth to get out about how many

people wheare going to die. donald trump says, "yes, there are going to be more deaths." that's his acknowledgment, "yes, we are going to be reckless, though two-thirds of americans don't want us to get back out there. we'll do whatever it takes to reopen the economy." quote, in the words of the president, there will be more deaths. >> our reporting shows that when the cdc, the guidelines came up to washington, the labor department objected, trump's labor department objected strenuously and said that these would be very, very bad for the economy. there were people at the white house who objected to the restrictions on churches especially, that people had to be, you know -- to wear a mask to church. they said people should be allowed to worship as they wish. there is ideology in here, as well. you know, the president is always kind of defining this downward or upward. he'll say, "well, anything less than 1 million deaths. it would have been 1 million if

i hadn't intervened." by that measure, he can say he is doing okay. obviously, you know, we wrote a story some time ago about the trade-off between opening the economy and people dying. the president has just made the decision that he is going to declare victory and move on. again, the economy is all important to him. you know, the interesting thing about this virus is that, unlike cabinet members, unlike other people, it doesn't -- it's not bullied. the numbers keep climbing. it is impervious to his -- to his browbeating. >> as the white house faces backlash for reports that it ignored the warnings of a coming pandemic, and for missteps in the response, a new report this morning from nbc news correspondent heidi przybyla highlights nearly an entire arm of president trump's administration that she says is

effectively sitting on the sidelines. that's his cabinet. heidi joins us now. heidi, tell us who, specifically, is on the sidelines, and why is it there's such a gaping hole in terms of actual action, in terms of getting something done? i point back to the president invoking the dpa to get testing across the country. who are these cabinet members who could be doing more? >> right, mika. trump has been the face of this disaster response, but this is a reminder that he has an entire cabinet here with very specific tools and enforcement powers that could be invoked at this time. nbc took a review of those cabinet agencies and found, in many cases, specifically in the case of the labor department, the agriculture department, and the education department, at least delayed responses, if not a failure to invoke those powers. let's start, for example, with the department of labor. i want you to take a listen here

to hector barbara sanchez of mia familia, who worked for years with the meatpackers, about what he thinks the labor department and trump could easily be doing at this time to help protect them. take a look. >> we have a national system of exploitation of these workers. it is a bubble of exploitation that nobody wants to see. this is the moment where we need to increase those protections. >> reporter: if he is doing an executive order to order them back to the work, is there any reason why he couldn't also issue orders about protections and basic standards for safety? >> they should be. one should be with the other. >> so you see at a time when we're having a huge problem with sickness breaking out in these meat plants, that even as the president is using his powers to order meatpackers back to work, he is not using his powers, the labor department is not using

its powers to mandate there be protections in these plants. mika, i'm told that osha isn't bothering to go out and inspect some of the sites where they've had complaints about uneven policies and lack of access to ppe. why? because there isn't even an enforceable standard. it's not just this one department. it's numerous departments. like the agriculture department which has been criticized in being slow to get aid to the farmers, who have yet to see the money flow to them. we are in an unparalleled crisis at this time, but also consider this, the last time the president's cabinet met was in november, long before this crisis even really hit in a big way here. physically, a lot of these cabinet members are just not present. they don't sit on the coronavirus task force, in the case of labor, in the case offal culture. nbc tried to track them down. wilbur ross, the commerce

secretary, at a time when we're facing the big egs economk negs economic crisis, he's at his estate in florida. betsy devos hasn't been in washington for a while. she's in michigan, as students are still struggling to get their aid. scalia did come with the president to the honeywell tour where the complaints arising about worker safety. this is the job of theprzybyla, very, very much. elisabeth bumiller, final thoughts. this has been a week where we are, gosh, edging past 75,000 dead. also, our justice system seems to be being pushed way beyond its limit.

>> final thoughts, we're going to be looking more at the decision by the justice department to drop the case. we'll be looking at that. we're doing a lot of reporting on the health crisis, on the hhs. we're looking at some other intelligence stories, things about -- so my final thoughts are that there is so much to be written about. there's so much to cover. we have our hands full in the washington bureau, keeping up with this crisis and keeping, you know -- and holding this administration to account, i would say. >> elisabeth bumiller, thank you very, very much. ahead, we're an hour away from the april jobs report. what could become the start to the trump depression. we'll have those numbers for you as soon as they cross. plus, she's a combat veteran who is said to be on joe biden's short list for vice president.

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the coronavirus aid, relief, and economic security act has helped many families that are struggling to make end's meet during this pandemic. there's still one group who is not seeing proper financial assistance. that's new parents. joining us now, member of the armed services committee, democratic senator, tammy duckworth of illinois. she is an iraq war veteran, purple heart recipient, and former assistant secretary of the u.s. department of veterans affairs. we are honored to have you on the show. can we start by asking about your efforts to help new parents and newborns through this? >> of course, mika. one of the things we notice in the c.a.r.e.s. act was that if you have a newborn this year, a

baby that was born in 2020, you are not eligible to get the $500 payment for each child during this year. you would have to wait until you file your taxes next year. we introduced a legislation to allow new parents to be able to claim the $500 this year. >> and how much support does it have? how quickly couldo new parents? >> this could happen fairly quickly. so i'm very proud that senator tim scott of south carolina and senator mike brawn, both republicans, joined me on the bill, as well as my friend amy klobuchar. it is piano pabipartisan. my job is to convince mitch mcconnell to attach it to the next c.a.r.e.s. pack j age whics in negotiations. >> leadership decisions pertaining to reopening america, which many believe, most

believe, scientists believe that testing would make that ma-- ma, rapid testing would make the process abundantly safer. do you believe the president should invoke the defense production act to nationalize testing? >> well, i think he should invoke the defense production act to nationalize the logistical process and get all of the test equipment out there to everyone. he has failed miserably in doing that. he's invoked some of it, but he did it to reopen meat packing plants. then he didn't provide test kits for the workers who have to go back to work in the meat packing plants, for example. we desperately need testing right now. >> willie? >> senator duckworth, it is great to have you on this morning. it is willie geist. i want to appeal to your life of service and the work you've done with veterans since then. can you talk about what's happening to our veterans' community? i don't think it is getting enough attention. many of these long-term care facilities where veterans are

living, veterans homes across the country, from massachusetts down to new jersey and illinois, where you live, have seen outbreaks and death at a scale that weir n're not seeing in ot places. why is that, exactly, and how can we zero in on that problem? >> well, that's because the veterans homes actually are state run. i was state director of veterans affairs. most americans don't know veterans homes are not run by the federal va but state va. there is a mismatch of leadership on all of those. from a state like illinois, where our governor has been very, very proactive, you'll see there has been few cases. those that have occurred have been well managed and are getting treatment. if you're from a state where the governor has reopened the economy too quickly, then you're going to see higher cases. so, again, this is a lack of leadership from the federal government, providing aid to all of these governors who are in charge of running these veterans homes. so there's no national standard

for who can visit the homes, who can't visit the homes. it is up to individual governors. right now, it's the wild, wild west out there. the president has made it the wild, wild west. you have governors competing against each other for ppe. my own governor had to fly in an aircraft full of ppe under the cloak of darkness so the federal government didn't come and seize it from him. after the president said, "find it on your own." it is crazy out there. >> governor pretitker talked abt reopening the state. it is different opfor cities, le chicago. how quickly should illinois be reopening? >> he is doing it wisely and based on a couple things. four of the five steps of his plan involve people continuing to shelter in place and wearing masks and ppe at different stages. all of the phases of his plan

include widespread testing. illinois has actually been able to test at least 10,000 every day the past week with 100,000 tests conducted just this past week alopnalone. this is something the federal government hasn't been able to get a handle on. i'm on the president's so-called task force to reopen the economy, which met one hour, 45 minutes which was donald trump bragging about how well he was handling the pandemic. when asked, when are we getting the test kits, and free testing, they weren't able to answer it. after that, we haven't had another meeting of the so-called panel he put together. i commend our governors who have taken the tough steps, like jb.. has. i lay this at the president's doorstep because he failed during this crisis. >> have you received questions from vice president joe biden's office, and if he were to ask

you to be his vice president, would you accept? >> mika, what i want is joe biden in the white house. i trust that he's got a process for putting together the right team to help him do that, from the vice president to the cabinet members. i answer the call when the country asks me to serve. i was a patient at walter reed when asked to run for congress. i've always answered the call. right now, my focus is getting joe biden into the white house and real leadership into the country. i'll trust they have a process they're probably going through right now. >> okay. senator tammy duckworth, thank you so much. let us know how that goes. we appreciate your being on the show this morning. >> thank you. up next, marking 75 years since the end of world war ii in europe. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug

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75 years ago today, world war ii ended in europe. v.e. day. victory over nazi germany after more than five years of war and millions of people dead. president harry truman made the announcement, and the day has been honored in memory ever since. >> informs me the forces of germany have surrendered to the united nations. the flag to freedom fly all over

europe. >> president harry truman announced the end of the war in europe. and the people of america and europe celebrated that victory together. >> i believe that there was, in the hearts of all the fighting, all the people that were in uniform in europe on that day, i believe tenuine desire for peace. and a hope that there would be no more war. >> i do not believe that the tide of history is despotisim. it is not either side. it is only what we decide ourselves we will do, which direction we will turn the tide of history, if we can be successful. >> we still live in an uncertain world. men have not yet stopped war. freedom, as always, demands courage and unyielding vigilance. >> 40 years ago today, the guns were stilled, and peace began.

500,000 new yorkers flooded times square and laughed and posed for the cameras. by this day 40 years ago, over 40 million lay dead. to this day, we wonder, how did this happen? how did civilization take such a terrible turn? >> during the war's final weeks, america's fighting forces thundered across europe, liberating small villages and lo cities from a long nightmare. many witnessed an outpouring of love and gratitude they'd remember the rest of their i loves. less than a month in office, president truman addressed the nation and said -- >> this is a solemn but glorious hour. i wish franklin d. roosevelt had lived to see this day. >> i do not know when victory will come. i do know that it will come.

>> that piece originally aired on nbc news 15 years ago. joining us now, historian rick atkinson, the author of numerous best-selling historical books, including "the guns at last light," the war in western europe 1944 to 1945. thank you so much for being on today. i'd like to start by just asking you how our world today is defined by victory in europe. >> good morning. thanks for remembering the day. well, the world today is a world that was shaped by world war ii generally. our national dialogue on racial and gender equality comes directly out of our national experience in world war ii. many of the institutions that we put in place after the end of the war, 1945, including the united nations, nato, the world

health organization couple years after that, all intended to preserve stability and to ensure, never again, that we would never have the catastrophe in which 60 million people are killed. so i think you think you can san 75 years later, the consequences of world war ii are very much with us. >> rick, it's willie geist. great to have you on, on this more than day. may 8, 1945. hard to believe that was only 11 months after d-day. that's how quickly america moved through europe. why do you think it's important to mark this day as we are right here and do you think a moment of unity, like we saw in times square in those images, would be possible today? >> well, thanks, willie. i think it's important to remember in part because of the 16.1 million americans in uniform in world war ii.

fewer than 40,000 are still alive. it's important to remember their sacrifice gave us the peace and prosperity that has mostly endured for 75 years. one veteran once said no war is really over until the last veteran dies. we're coming to the point world war ii is really over by that standard. is that unity possible again? you would like to think so. it's hard to imagine with the divided world we've got today, divided country we've got today, but i think it showeds us when we all pull the point in the same direction, rowing in the same direction, extraordinary things are possible. that was a country then of 130 million people, 16.1 million in uniform. everyone had someone they loved in harm's way. everyone had skin in the game. until we feel that same way about our world in the 21st century, i think it's going to

be difficult to replicate precisely that kind of sense of national unity. >> since this pandemic is being viewed as a war, rick, and you talk about if everyone rose in the same direction, extraordinary things can happen. are we rowing in the same direction right now as we face this human catastrophe that many parallel to a war? >> it's hard to imagine that we are. it doesn't feel like we're rowing in the same direction. one thing we certainly saw in world war ii, and there were many mistakes made. failures of leadership up and down the line. but we saw ultimately a sense, first of all, of the importance of alliance. winston churchill said the only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting without them. you have a feeling today that the alliances that were set up after world war ii have frayed. they seem very brittle.

we also have the sense that strong national leadership that wasp essential to success, v.j. day, victory over jaup, which mark japan, which marked the end of the world, the leadership from harry truman at the end of the war, is something i don't personally feel out of the white house. and until we get that strong, constant leadership it's going to be difficult for us to really feel we're taking the fight against this current enemy together. >> author and his storian rick atkinson, thank you very, very much. joel howlman, we want to give your take on a story that might have gone under the radar yesterday with everything going on. ai top donor to president trump and republican national committee has been named -- wait

for it -- the new head of the postal service. north carolina businessman lewis dejoy, who was formally in charge of the rnc in charlotte, has been named the new head of the agency. trump has long pressed for major changes in how the postal service handles its business and "the washington post" reports the move could allow the administration to force the service to renegotiate its terms with companies at its own union workforce. dejoy will be the first master general in two decades that did not rise through the agency's ranks. john heilemann, how many questions does this raise and concerns? >> a whole bunch, mika, but one more important than the others, right? the president's been an incredibly intense critic of the postal service forever. he's abused it in much of the same way he's abused law

enforcement officers and called them scum. he says the same thing about the postal service. his previously politicized objective wet postal service was try to get it to raise fees on jeff abezos and amazon. that was seen as something that needed to be protected against when it came to the donald trump and pressure he was putting on the postal service. now as we sit here in 2020 with an election happening in november, where no matter what, we already know at least 50 million people are going to vote by mail was that's how many people voted by mail in 2016. that's the baseline. we know there are going to be many, many more. because whatever the shape of this virus is, whenever it comes back and resurges with a vengeance in the fall or doesn't, we know there will be concern about turnout. so there's a lot being done to increase the vote by mail in the

2020 election. and i will point out no matter what happens on this front, the six major swing states, arizona, florida, north carolina, pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan already had a vote by mail. vote by mail will be a big part of the 2020 election. is it disconcerting? is it worrying? does it raise concerns? if you know the president, who already wanted to put political pressure on the postal service to punish an enemy, amazon.com and jeff bezos, is the president maybe by installing a political crony at the top of the postal service, is there anything to be concerned about when the integrity of the vote will be in stake and in the hands, in many respects of the postal service? i think there's a lot to be concerned about. you heard democrats on the left and republicans, people like are bill kristol on the right, taking steps to make sure

nothing knee pharnefarious is h with the mile and a service run by trump's crony. coming up -- are we losing on the economic front? a new labor report details the damage with millions of americans out of work. those new jobs numbers are straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ severe rheumatoid arthritis. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill... ...can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some-rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. that's rinvoq relief. with ra, your overactive immune system... ...attacks your joints. rinvoq regulates it to help stop the attack. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious infections and blood clots, sometimes fatal, have occurred... ...as have certain cancers, including lymphoma, tears in the stomach or intestines,

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i also think it's sad that nowadays these partisan feelings are so strong that people lost any sense of justice. >> they're dishonest, crooked people and they're scum. i say it a lot. they're scum, human scum. attorney general william barr bemoans a lack of civility as the president attacks the agency that barr overseas. what a morning. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, may 8th with joe, willie and me. we have former u.s. senator and nbc news and nbc political analyst claire mcclass kill. great morning have claire back on. >> it really is. we're going to get to barr, proving once and for all he really is donald trump's roy cohn, that's he's corrupt, that he doesn't care if the whole world knows he's corrupt. it was established time and time again. certainly established yesterday.

but before we do that, quickly, willie, set up where we are right now. the news overnight that the president of the united states, the trump administration,p wants to once again stop the centers for disease control in trying to protect americans. we saw this happen earlier in the week where the white house tossed out some predictions over how many deaths there might be in using trump administration facts. yesterday the cdc set out guidelines and they wanted the guidelines to go to schools, restaurants, churches and ore community establishments to help them safely reopen their restaurants and their businesses, and to save lives. trump killed it. and, you know, it's just like the white house, willie, time and again, forgetting donald trump specifically, forgetting their own guidelines that he

passed through, that he gave to the american people with the help of dr. fauci and dr. birx, and they were guidelines that would help open businesses in a safe way. but he keeps pushing -- and we're going to be talking about this -- to reopen businesses as a unsafe way that would cause a lot more deaths, deaths of a lot more senior citizens, so apparently he's ready to sacrifice so the stock market might go up a couple points, and force a second shutdown, which you and i both know will cause just tens of thousands of small businesses to goat bankrupt and out of business when this happens. >> yes, as we said many times over the last couple of months, we understand the impulse to get people back to work, get those small businesses up and running. but this is the week the president just explicitly just came out and said i'm moving on.

i'm turning the page, enough is enough. we've got to get people back to work. fupt unfortunately the testing, science, public health side, has not caught up to where he is. he wants it to go away. remember when he said the public had to catch up where it magically appears, but he is willing his own way. every public health official, cdc guidelines, dr. fauci, dr. birx would tell him these places are not ready to go as far as he would like to go in terms of reopening the economy. as you say rks it wi, it will m problem worse. but he can't stand watching what's happening anymore, what's happening to his presidency, and he's ready to move on. >> it's about politics. it's not about health. it's not about safety. and it's really not about the economy. because it's going to make the economy even worse by doing this. he did say one thing, mika, that

was correct. >> yeah. >> when he said he was going to open up the united states, open up these businesses, try to force these businesses open up. i think a lot of them aren't going to because they don't want to die and they don't want their own customers to die. but he said, quote, there will be more deaths. yes, we're going to open up the economy, and, quote, there will be more deaths. this coming from the party of life? i don't think so. the party of life that puts children in cages, i don't think so. any suggestion that this party is the party of life is laughable at this point. when you have all of donald trump, it seems so many donald trump supporters in the national media now are just braisingly saying that a senior citizen's life is not as value as of life of somebody in their 30s or their 40s. i can list names. i don't have to.

they're all over there. they're no longer the party of life. they're party of the bottom line. they're party of the stock market. anybody says they're the party of life because they want to protect life before a child is born but not after? and its seniors, their deaths are not tragic like a death of a 30-year-old or 40-year-old, or texas lieutenant governor going out and saying, you know what, we're willing to sacrifice ourselves. we're willing to die so the stom can go up, no, no, they're not. if you look at poll after poll, mika, america understands how serious this is. as we wake up this morning, over 76,000 americans dead. more americans died from the coronavirus, which donald trump said would magically go away in april, and then die in civilian deaths during world war ii

during the blitz of london, during the battle of london, during hitler's, nazi's bombing of the london people. >> to your point, joe, in just a few minutes we're going to be showing our viewers really a step-by-step look at the president's words as the virus ravaged the country. you can watch what he is saying versus the death toll. it will be a very striking look at how he has not led us through this with the facts. >> how interesting today is the 75th anniversary of victory in europe day. >> yes. >> and we got there. britain got there. our allies got there by talking about sacrifice, by understanding how difficult it was going to be. churchill never once hesitated to tell the british people in 1940 how difficult it was and how their lives were. we have a president that has been poly annish from the very

beginning, very beginning saying it's one people, soon it will be zero. it's 15 people, it will soon be zero. it will magically go away in april. don't worry about it. everything is going to be fine. 76,000 dead, and we're going to have a lot more but you don't know exactly how many we will have because the cdc tried to put out the guidelines last week and the president killed it. the cdc tried to tell you and your family how to safely go back in society, the president killed it. he doesn't want you to know the truth. he doesn't want you to know how to stay safe. >> what you're pointing out it's not just what the president says that is striking, it's what he hasn't done. many say adds up to negligence when it comes to dealing with this crisis. we're going to get more on the latest developments with the coronavirus in just a moment. we also have about a five-minute video, montage of what's happened over the past several months. >> it really spells out his

words versus reality. it's striking. we'll have that for you in just a moment. but, first, the justice department dropped charges against former national security adviser, michael flynn, who sought for months to withdraw his guilty plea for lying to the fbi as part of special counsel's robert mueller investigation during the 2016 election. the doj argued during its case, including its moats from fbi agents that were publicly disclosed last week, flynn's january 17 fbi interview that led to the prosecution, quote, was untethered to and unjustified by the fbi's counterintelligence investigation into mr. flynn and conducted without any legitimate investigative basis. >> wow. >> the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, timothy

shea, added continued protection of this case would not serve the interest of justice. he was the only u.s. attorney to sign the filing, which drew considerable criticism from career prosecutors. the line prosecutor van brack withdrew from the case shortly before the justice department argued it could not prove the charges. >> remember, willie, they're saying they can't prove charges that glen hflynn admitted to tw open court. donald trump said himself he was forced -- donald trump said he had no other choice, donald trump said i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and he lied to the fbi. there's donald trump in a tweet specifically saying i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and

the fbi. he's pled guilty to those lies december 2, 2017, willie. this is a shameful day for the department of justice and that lies generally on the attorney general's shoulders. he doesn't care. >> we should say again to our audience because there's been so much that happened since then, general flynn pleaded guilty twice to lying to investigators. he pleaded guilty. you have what, in this case, prosecutors withdrawing a case in which they had already won two guilty pleas but attorney general william barr did defend the reversal of the flynn prosecution yesterday during an interview with cbs news. >> a crime could not be established here and did not have a basis for a counterintelligence investigation against flynn at that stage. >> does the fact remain he lied? >> people sometimes plead to things that turn out not to be crimes. >> what should americans take away from your actions in the

flynn case today? >> i want to make sure that we restore confidence in the system. there's only one standard of justice. >> are you doing the president's bidding? >> no, i'm doing the law's bidding. >> you know you're going to take a lot of incoming as they say in the military for this decision? >> i'm prepared for that. but i also think it's sad that how audes these partisan feelings are so strong that people have lost any sense of justice. >> when history looks back on this decision, how do you think it will be written? >> history's written by the winners, so it depends on who's writing the history. >> and that tells you everything you need to know. might makes right. up next, we will talk to nbc's julia ainsley about these new developments in the justice department. plus,'s how some economists foreshadowing today's jobs report, due out just moments

from now. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ne. we're automatically refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums. we're also offering flexible payment options for those who've been financially affected by the crisis. we look forward to returning to something that feels a little closer to life as we knew it, but until then you can see how we're here to help at libertymutual.com/covid-19. [ piano playing ] for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease, stelara® works differently. studies showed relief and remission, with dosing every 8 weeks. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection or flu-like symptoms or sores, have had cancer, or develop new skin growths, or if anyone in your house needs or recently had a vaccine.

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let's bring in also nbc news correspondent julia ainsley. you have covered this justice department very closely over the years. put the pieces together for us, please. michael flynn pleads guilty. the u.s. attorney is installed, timothy shea, close aide to william barr, and now we are here two months later with that case being withdrawed, despite two guilty pleas. >> yes, we're seeing a very slow unraveling barr has been doing of the mueller investigation since he's took office as attorney general. we saw him take decisions not to prosecute when mueller left that open-ended. he said congress should not step aside that even though it seemed mueller wanted to leave the

question of obstruction to congress. then most recently in the fall we saw william barr go against the inspector general of the justice department and start to tease out the result of this independent investigation, independent investigation william barr set up from john darr durham saying it's a criminal investigation and he will find bias of what became the investigation in the first place, became the mueller investigation. we saw him pour water on this again and again. but this is unprecedented. something else i want to point out this, judge, that's what i'm watching now, judge sullivan has been very independent and he has not hidden how he feels about michael flynn. going back to the first day we thought we would get sent engsing for michael flynn but flynn decided to delay because the judge seemed to be so upset for him. he said i cannot hide my disdain and my disgust for the crimes committed here.

now we have to see even though the justice department has filed this, that they want to withdraw the case, it's still up to judge sullivan. judge sullivan has also been very entied throughout the administration's policies and other things. he overruled then attorney general jeff sessions on his asylum ban. this is a judge who is not frayed to go against the graafr grain and make his opinions mode. >> mika, off-air he wrote the justice department took an even greater three-point it's perfectly legal for a public official to lie through his teeth repeatedly to fbi agents who show up to interview him. and that's specifically what barr argued in the brief. and i don't see how any judge allows this to stand. still ahead -- our next guest served as the chief economic adviser to both

president obama and president clinton. jean sperling breaks us to break down the brand new jobs report due out moments from now. "morning joe" is coming right back. snooer you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else.

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. the coronavirus has now claimed more than 76,000 lives here in the u.s. despite the president early on insisting to anyone who would listen that he had it all under control.

is. >> we have to get our country open, geoff. >> did you say, sir, the metrics you will use to make that decision? >> the metrics right here. that's all the metrics i can do. >> worry about a pandemic at this point? >> no, we're not at all. we have it totally under control. it's one person. we have it very well under control. by april, in theory, when it gets a little warmer and miraculously goes away. when it gets warm, historically that has been able to kill a virus. that's around the corner. that will be a great thing. numbers will get progressively better. you go back three months ago or six months, nothing would have predicted. when you have 15 people and 15 in a couple of days will be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done. no, i don't think it's inevitable. people say he should do more. there's nothing more we can do.

we haven't seen an increase and people are getting better. almost everybody is gettingever. the democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. they can't even count their votes in iowa. they tried the impeachment hoax and this is the new hoax. but we've did something that's pretty amazing. the press is in hysteria mode. cnn, fake news and their camera just went off. fupt unfortunately one person passed away overnight. since the foreign outbreak, my administration is taking the aggressive action in modern history that really turned out to be a lifesaver in a sense, big lifesaver. some people will have it and not even go to a doctor or hospital and get better. anybody who needs a test, gets a test. they're there. the tests are beautiful. the tests are all perfect.

and we're doing a great job with it. it will go away with because of what i did and with what the administration did. with china, we have 32 deaths at this point. other countries, smaller counts, have many, many deaths. it's a very contagious virus. it's incredible. but it's something we have tremendous control over. talking about the virus? no, that's not under control for any place in the world. no, i was talking about what we're doing is under control can, not talking about the virus. i have always known this is a real -- this is a pandemic. i felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. we have very great approval numbers. people like the job we're doing. the only thing we' weren't prepared for is the media. >> when are you saying to americans watching right now who are scared? >> i would say you're a terrible reporter. i think that's a very nasty question. i have been right a lot. let's see what happens.

>> the month ago cdc had initial tests that failed. at that moment late february you said it's perfect. and it wasn't perfect. >> i said what was perfect was my conversation with the head of ukraine. that's what i really said was perfect. h, ok that was another scandal, nonsense, total witch-hunt. but nobody expected a thing like this. we have to get back to work and i think we can get back to opening up parts of the country. easter, that could be the peak period, that could be the peak, sadly to say, peak number of deaths before it starts coming down t will gone, hopefully for a long time. i will say it again, what do you have to lose? take it. i think they should take it. hydroxychloroquine, try it if you would like. did anybody in this room think a thing like this could happen? but it happened. they don't have to appreciate me at all. i don't care about me.

i wish you would ask the question differently. why don't you say it's gotten off to a tremendous start but there are some little glitches, which by the way, had been worked out. i wish we had a fair media in this country, and we really don't. we have to get our country open. >> can you say what metrics you will use to make that decision? >> the metrics right here. that's all i can do. there's always metrics. this is a genius we're fighting, this hidden enemy. it's genius. it's genius. the way it's attacked so many countries. all i'm saying is how do you close down the greatest economy in the history of the world when on january 17th you have no cases and no death? when on january 21, you have one case and no death. one case. what we inherited from the previous administration was totally broken. we inherited broken testing. now we have great testing. today i'm instructing my

administration to halt funding of the world health organization. i was angry because it should have been told to us early, it should have been told to us a lot sooner. people knew what was happening and people didn't want to talk about it. the head of a country doesn't have to a stay in. these are smart people. we inherited a lot of garbage. they had tests that were no good. wait, it might not come back at all. it may not come back at all. >> we will have coronavirus in the fall. i'm convinced of that. >> and i see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute. is there a way we can do something like that by injection, inside or -- or the most cleaning as you see gets in the lungs and does a tremendous job. that may be something we have to check.

we have to use medical doctors but it sounds interesting toe me. i'm not a doctor. i'm like a person who has a pre, you know what -- >> 60% of americans support allowing people to vote by mail-in ballot, including a plurality of republicans. but many, including the president, are trying to block it and time is now running out. everyday you're eating acidic foods; you're constantly weakening that enamel structure. pronamel repair allows more minerals to penetrate deep into the enamel layer and it repairs it. it is pretty phenomenal.

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all right, welcome back. we are waiting the jobs report. joining us now former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst stevep brage. there they are, by the way, 50.5 million jobs loss and unemployment rate at 14.7%. also with us director of the national economic council under both president obama and president clinton, gene sperling. he's the author of the new book entitled "economic dignity" who argues why in a time of crisis like we are currently in, the promotion of dignity should be the singular goal to measure america's future. these numbers, joe, are painful. >> and just absolutely devastating to so many -- to millions and millions of americans. steve rattner, 14.7% unemployment rate since the department of labor has begun

measuring these numbers in 1948. there's never been a number this high, obviously the highest number against the great depression, and many people believe it still could go higher, jobless rate could go into the 20s. what are your initial reactions to these numbers? >> joe, they're absolutely devastating, of course. they are what we expected essentially roughly in line. we didn't really know. this is unprecedented as you said. roughly in line like we have seen in our lifetime and will get worse. the new claims, 3 million, those are not even in this yet. this survey is taken in the middle of the month. the job loss is in the rest of april and may not even counted yet. so it's going to get worse. and it's probably undercounting things like labor force

participation, meaning more people are unemployed than show up in these numbers. you will see more people getting less hours worked, getting less overtime, making less money. and like we talked about a little yesterday t. will ha, ita disproportionate affect on people like housekeepers and staff and, people like you and me are doing fine but the others suffer. and you see is through noneconomic ways like domestic violence. and this is going to be with us a long time. this will not bounce back. this will not be a v where people suddenly go back to work. double-digit unemployment on election day. we will have high unemployment really as far as the eye can see in my view. >> willie, these numbers, you look at it, 20.5 million jobs lost. i think back to my father losing

his job when i was 8, 9 years old because of a recession. just for him, how difficult it was for him. went around the south looking for a job that could replace that job for over a year. this is every one of these numbers is a personal tragedy for those americans who were out of work. the problem is, there are no easy answers right now. one third of americans say hey, let's rush back into work. the real fear, talk to small business owners like your friends and my friends, if you rush back too quickly, then you cause another surge, because we're in the middle of a surge right now, and then that causes the businesses to shut down again and a lot of small business owners i know say, listen, i may be able to survive this first shutdown. i will not be able to survive a second. there are no easy answers. >> no. and this number is made no less

devastating by the fact we knew it was coming. but you see it now officially. 20.5 million of our friends and neighbors and fellow americans, this is not a political question. this is not a political debate right now. this is about families who lost jobs, families who will be worried about losing their homes, families who are now looking for meals, families who are counting on food banks around this country to help them get through the week. this is utter economic and personal devastation for many americans. gene, i would turn to you as we look at this number. it could be worse next month. we will see what it looks like. 20.5 million americans, 14.7 is the unemployment number here. that is the worst since the end of the depression in 1939. >> as steve said, it may be worse and if it's worse, we put

out the unemployment numbers now there's another unit called ucef, sounds like a band but it's a report that looks at the amount of jobs, dropped out the last couple of weeks, and that's 22.8%. we're talking about 22.8%, we are talking about the type of pain we haven't seen since 1931. it is going to get worse in may. there were probably people who did not answer the questions right. and so you're going to have to make not only getting these jobs back the most top priority, which as we said earlier has to be done with seriousness and confidence that not just gives confidence to the small business to reopen but gives us as consumers the confidence that's not dangerous to go back. and then if we try once, we should never do it again.

and i hate to say this, but we're going to have to realize that because of this pathetically slow and ineffective response coming from this president, coming from washington, coming from the small business loans, we're going to lose jobs and those not coming back. we're going to have big priorities in the next year or two. we have to not only have a smart health care plan that's science based and brings people back, but we have to start thinking about what we do as a country to create the new jobs of the future, to help restore the jobs that we can already see are going to be lost forever. >> so, steve rattner, you said before that you don't think this is going to be a v-shaped recovery. this is what we had heard at the beginning of this crisis, that things would go down. we would shut down for two, three months, socially distance,

and everything would jump back up. you say, and other economists i talk to tell me the same thing, it's just not going to happen that way. it's going to be more like a u. we're going to have to struggle through this for a while. tell me why that is. >> i think that is absolutely what i believe. i think it's not just going to jump back. i think there are any number of ways you can think about this. are people going travel the way they traveled before? i don't think so. are people going to have money to make the same discretionary, big purchases they like to make when things are going well? i don't think so. are people going to go to theme parks to florida in the same numbers they did as well? i don't think so. and so -- as i talk to ceos of companies and as we go about our investing business, what ceos tell us over and over again is that they're not going to simply rehire everybody they got rid of, that they're rethinking their businesses, they're cutting their capital

expenditures, they're brace ein themselves for a long recovery. there will be, as gene said, a permanent destruction that will have to be replaced by new policies. and i would be remiss if i didn't say not all of this had to happen. obviously, the virus was a huge public health crisis. it was going to have an economic impact. i think it almost goes without saying at this point if we had addressed it earlier, if we had more coordinated national policies, if we had addressed testing, we could have mitigated, i believe, a number of these effects, gotten people back to work sooner and had much less economic damage than we're going to have because of the way our response to this virus has been implemented, which is not very well at all. >> so, steve, we're calling this a recession at this point? at what point do all of the equations, the jobs, the claims, the shutdowns add up to a depression? at what point did we cross over that line? what do those two different

terms mean for the length, except of the pain that americans are going to feel? >> the classic definition of a recession is two quarters of negative gdp growth. we've already had one. we're certainly going to have another. we're in a recession. there's no doubt we're in a recession. when the congress gets around to dating it, they will probably date it back to march or something like that. the classic definition of a depression is four quarters of negative economic growth. i don't think that's yet what we believe will happen but it's entirely possible that could happen. we're in utterly unchartered waters here in terms of the magnitude and speed of these job losses. it is certainly fair to say a number of them will come back. companies will rehire when they can reopen. so i don't think we're necessarily in the great depression as it were. that was, of course, a time we made everything as bad as we could by day, economic policies. our policies are a bit better this time. i think it's too soon to say

depression. but recession that will go on with joblessness for years and years. we will talk about bringing unemployment down for several years before we get anything back that looks like full employment in this country. >> gene, that number we're looking at this morning, 20.5 million jobs lost in the month of april, represents all of the job growth we've seen in the last decade as the country climbed its way out of the financial crash of 2008 and '09. that's been wiped out in a single month. it's hard to be optimistic on a morning like this, but where do you see us beginning to crawl out of this hole? how do we get out of this? the legislation passed through congress provided something of a band-aid to small businesses but only that. it will get them through a few weeks, a maybe a month or so to pay employees. but how do we begin to even see our way out of this? >> as we said at the beginning, it is going to get worse. as steve mentioned, the way they

do the survey the last month they looked at was april 12th through the 18 claimed joblessness. we have 33 million. i don't think the real question of the unemployment now will climb to 23%. this is just where the incompetence we've seen on the testing side, on the response, we've also seen as things are doing economically. we talk about the unfairness of the ppp, small business loan program. think about what that was supposed to do, it was supposed to pay a small business that could have been viable. you can keep your doors open, you can keep your workers on your job. that could have lowered this number if it was an effective government response. what did we see? we saw places like chase manhattan, if you were a con seer client over 15 million, you all got loans.

if you were a regular retail small business or particularly minority small business, 1 in 15, 1 in 10. that's not just unfair, that means the time to save were unnecessarily lost and we have to see a lot more seriousness about actually keeping the small businesses afloat who could stay afloat. then as i come back to we're going to have to recognize what steve has said that some of these jobs are not coming back. some are rethinking their businesses. some are small businesses that sadly closed that shouldn't have had to close. we're going to have to get these back in a way that doesn't have backfire. and then we have to figure out what is the new job creation strategy for our country. mika, it may not technically be a depression but it could easily feel like a jobs depression for a long time with over double-digit unemployment unless

we do something much more effective than we have so far. >> gene, tell me, what can we do when we have a president who refuses to take the lead, a president who one day will say that he has the power of mussolini, he has complete power, and the next day say it's all up to the governors? that's been his approach towards just about everything, reopening the economy, testing. even the white house guidelines that he put forward for states to reopen, follow these guidelines and you can reopen safely, and then he throws those to the side as well. we've heard from doctors. we've heard from economists. we've heard from ceos. we've fleheard from educators a saying the same thing, if you want to reopen businesses, then we've got to figure out a way to have a more expansive, robust nationwide testing program. yet the president continues to

stubbornly refuse to do what the federal government has done before, and that is take the lead in testing. he's throwing everything to the governors. now he's even shredding documents, not allowing documents to go to the doctors -- or to the governors that the cdc's putting together to tell businesses how they can reopen safely. so how do we do this? i've always said, this is like f.d.r. saying, you know what, we're not going to have a defense department. we're just going to have 50 armed militias from 50 states taking on hitler and the jaup japanese. doesn't work that way in that war and not working that way in this war. what do we do? >> obviously, i would like to see us have new leadership but we have to demand. you're right, can you imagine f.d.r. coming in and saying during the great depression it's up to you states and localities.

it's nice we have economic folks like leon but the truth is anybody can understand the challenge for reopening the business. it's not a complicated thing. it's about what would give you and your family the confidence to return to a restaurant, nail salon, feel good enough to buy a car? it is as you said, joe, massive testing, there was confidence things were getting better and your government had credibility. they were not opening because they're trying to stock of the stock market. i would never get over the dream we probably have millions of people out of work and tens of thousands of deaths because the president was more focus on talking up the stock market. the last thing i have to say on the governors is, no governor, no mayor, no one can be expected to save for a 102-year flood. they will see a $500 billion to $650 billion shortfall. that's not some municipal

finance issue. that is whether on top of all of this we're now going to lose teacher jobs, state trooper jobs, health care jobs, reductions in health service, hospital jobs. this president has got to have a serious long-term unemployment program that really helps people. he needs something when he's helping companies that he is really trying to help keep people in jobs and needs a program to help states, not play blue state/red state politics but recognize they are not federal government. they can't borrow. if you don't help them with the $500 billion, $600 shortfall we are going to see first responders and teachers make this job numbers worse and hurt our future as a country. >> hey, steve, i'm just combing through this report. the report from labor here, specifically h specifically hispanic unemployment 18.9%,

african-american unemployment, 16.7%. again, overall, staggering report, 20.5 million jobs. as you said, that number is probably much higher. what jumps out to you as you read through this more closely? >> those are definitely numbers that jump out as me. as gene and i have both said, those numbers are understated because of people who have dropped out of the labor force. let me give you two other things that jumped out at me. the percentage of americans who are working drop tooped to an all-time low. to put that in context, if you go back about two decades, 64% of americans were working. a huge percent of americans not even in the labor force. and the second thing that i noticed was the percent of hospitality and leisure jobs, obviously, these are the travel jobs and things like that, restaurants, small businesses, dropped by 47%. 47% of all the jobs in hospitality and leisure disappeared last month.

at least temporarily. those are some stunning numbers as well. and i would just close by saying, look, we need help from the federal government on two fronts. we need a better, more coordinated response to how we'll get back to work instead of walking away and leaving it to 50 states to try to figure out. and as gene said eloquently, we need leadership from the federal government in terms of a long-term economic response here. we're not done with the need for rescue and other kinds of packages. i'd call them rebuilding packages to get the economy back on its feet. it's going to be a long process. and right now the white house is saying we don't really think we need to do anything and that is dead wrong. >> all right, steve rattner, thank you so much. gene sperling, thank you as well. his new book out this week is entitled "economic dignity." incredible timing with that. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums.

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we're here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. every day, all across america, we deliver for you. and we always will. tomorrow night the global

relief organization for children, unicef, will be streaming a special event about the response to covid-19. the message, we are braver together. the special virtual event will include appearances by cher, pink, sting, rod stewart, sheryl crow and many, many others. watch it tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on our streaming channel, nbcnews now or on nbc news's social channels. joining us, unicef ambassador, tea leoni whose grandmother founded unicef usa and served as its president for 25 years. that's amazing. it's good to see you again. and i love this event. this lineup is amazing. >> yeah it is. we are really lucky to have the enthusiasm for this that we

have. it's not surprising, but i still feel really lucky. >> yeah, no, i can imagine you must feel amazing. this lineup is incredible. virtual reunion of the eurythmics. this is amazing. how did it come together, and what's the message here beyond the good that can be done? >> well, i think this was sort of born out of the fact that when there's a crisis that involves children, i think people have come to expect unicef to take leadership in these moments, whether it's a hurricane or an earthquake or outbreak. and i think people right now are looking for leadership, guidance and hope. and we wanted to put this together, not -- i think what's a little bit different is that

we want to celebrate all that everybody is doing. all of us. i look out my window and i can see everyone social distancing and wearing their masks and doing everything they can to protect and save lives. while we're staying at home, unicef is back on the front lines where they've been for three quarters of a century. >> it's willie geist. great to have you on. what i love what you're doing here with workers as you should be, but you're also looking tlat f inin families. we've got a lot of friends who are doctors. we're concerned about them but we try to keep tabs on their kids and their families. if you have, especially in one case, a father and a mother who are in the icu or the e.r. talk about the role that you're going to be focusing on children

here. >> unicef certainly knows, but i think we all know that the toxic stress as a result of this covid-19, what you just were talking about earlier, the economic hardships and unemployment, kids unable to attend school, to play with their friends. the social isolation. these are all things that are going to have really devastating impacts potentially on kids around the world. and like we did in puerto rico after hurricane maria and then in houston after hurricane harvey, unicef will be supporting caregivers, parents, mothers. mothering is, i know, it's a tough job. and under these circumstances, it is extraordinarily difficult. and so this is one of the things that we do best. >> absolutely. one of -- really briefly tell us about your grandmother.

started and founded unicef. she's got to be pretty proud of you looking down. >> well, we're working on four generations of unicef. i got to serve with my dad on the board. i kind of laugh at that portrait because she made these really silly faces. anyway, it's -- i think, you know, i was talking about her yesterday actually and saying i think she's proud, yeah, of me, my dad and soon my kids, but i honestly think she would be incredibly impressed that we are now the global community that she knew we were and watching people work this hard to save other people's lives. this is impressive. we want to -- i guess that's what saturday night is about is saying thank you to everybody for doing their part.

>> that is definitely what it has become. tea leone, thanks again. and once again, the one night only virtual event "unicef won't stop" streams tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on our streaming channel, nbc news now or on nbc news' social channels. and that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. a job loss of 20.5 million. the unemployment rate rises to 14.7%. >> it would be great to start working. it's getting ugly. >> you see all these news conferences about how they're going to help us. all i see is big business being helped out. >> we'll see economic data for the second quarter worse than any data we've seen for the economy. >> i think next year we'll have a phenomenal year economically.

>> hi