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good evening and welcome to our continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. i'm ali velshi. the united states now has more than 1.3 million cases of covid-19, the number of fatalities surfacing 79,000. some states across the country are continuing with their planned reopenings as president trump emphasizes the need to restart the economy. new numbers out yesterday show the united states lost a record 20 million jobs in the month of april. the unemployment rate surged to 14.7%, the highest level since the great depression. in the last hour the president has been meeting with senior military officials and his national security team. meanwhile, there are new safety procedures at the white house, as two staffers in the west wing

have tested positive for the coronavirus. meanwhile, the 44th president, barack obama, criticizing the trump administration's response to the pandemic, reportedly calling it a chaotic disaster. let's begin at the white house this evening where the trump administration has confirmed a second case of coronavirus in the west wing. the first individual diagnosed earlier this week was the president's personal valet who serves his meals. then it was confirmed that the vice president's secretary, katie miller, married to the president's assistant, steven mill miller, has also contracted the virus. the president says the whole concept isn't great but that he declared he is satisfied.

several new projections from the university of washington, from columbia, from penn, from john hopkins, all of which indicate more deaths. what do we know about this? >> the associated press is reporting that the cdc had issued a lengthy document that really would be guidance for people like faith leaders, educators, some business owners that was set to be released ahead of the may 1st guidelines when the president and his task force wanted to reopen several states in phases, but the a.p. learned that guidance was sheffield, they were told that was not to be released to the public, it was in draft form and only when the a.p. reported this news a couple of days ago did the white house then ask the cdc to revive parts of that guidance. what is significant here is that the white house had told us originally the cdc director

robert r robert redfield handsigndn't si dove on the document. so many questions, though, on why you wouldn't want to distribute these to people, as the white house contends with their own issues. you see this push and pull to try to look forward. but this week when the president really wanted to be talking about that and talking about how to safely reopen, there were so many questions about what was happening in his own west wing with these two aides who have tested positive for coronavirus, and that comes as we saw agents for the first time that are close to the president wearing face coverings. this is something that we hadn't seen before today in any significant way. it's very rare to see aides or any staffers wearing face coverings, but this evening did

mark a change. that's a step up in these protocols in procedures to keep the president and vice president more safe. they're doing cleaning and contact tracing and they're also going to be sure in the days to come the testing continues, that daily testing that they say is so critical to maintaining the president's safety when of course so many places around the country say they can't do the same for their employees as they get back to work, ali. >> monica, thank you for your reporting. as always, monica alba for us at the white house. experts are continuing to warn of the country that opening the country could risk pose to our country. cases are trending upward. across the nation 43 states has now begun easing restrictions,

while as we've mentioned, the number of covid-19 related fatalities has surfaced 79,000. >> i'm enjoying this habit of getting together with you guys and getting my update. it becomes that much more important, dr. roy, because there's greater confusion. there are a number of reports out in the last week that suggest with the easing of restrictions will come greater contact. with greater contact with come more infection and with more infection will come more death. we have a number of pro of proj that we might get to the 130,000 to 140,000 levels of death. what do you make of this? >> what we know as a fact is that we open up too quickly without key strategic public health measures in place, people are going to get infected,

they're going to get sick and unfortunately a certain percentage of those individuals will die. we've been seeing this for months in the united states and then globally. and these are not two diametrically opposed issues here. we can do both but it has to be done in a really strategic manner. testing, widespread contact tracing so we no who is affected and who is relatively safe and immune. we can slowly open up places but not in this haphazard, patchwork kind of way. it wre it's reckless. >> dr. gupta, i want to talk to you about something that president trump said yesterday when the vice president's aid being positive came out. let me read it to you.

talking about katie miller, "she tested very good for a long period of time and then all of a sudden today she tested positive. so she tested positive out of the blue. this is why the whole concept of tests aren't necessarily great. the tests are perfect but something can happen between a test where it's good and then something happens and all of a sudden she was tested recently and tested negative and i guess today for some reason she tested positive." 100% of tests work correctly that way. where you don't have an infection you test negative and when you have the virus you test positive. >> that's exactly correct. you have the virus one day, you didn't have it 24 hours ago. you're likely going to test positive when you have it and

tess negati test negative when you don't have it. in some cases you get false positives. tests aren't perfect. tests are imperfect and that's why cadence to testing. rarely have we talked about how often should we be polling up individuals that are chronically exposed but that test negative, when should we get a retest? we don't have any guidance on that from the cdc. it's an important thing. it's great that the secretary to the vice president has that access. as an icu doc i haven't gotten tested once because the guidelines say i have to have symptoms. so we, one, need to broaden testing to those that are asymptomatic. we can't just have symptomatic individuals cleared for testing. saliva testing that was just approved is a huge boone, it's great news.

a new test approved today point of care in the home that's not saliva testing. it's from a company called predel. there are new innovations in the pipeline that should give us a lot of hope that the vice president's press secretary is able to get on a daily basis. that's good news for us all. >> this is a remarkable example. the white house is heavily controlled. if anybody comes down with coronavirus in the white house, the concept of contact tracing is never going to play out better because 100% of people who are in there will be contact traced. and doctor, you're talking about blood thinners as it relates to patients with covid-related clots. i didn't know that was a thing. >> can i extend what vin just said. not only is the president not having an understanding really about testing but about how this virus is transmitted.

hiv is different, right? we know what the risk factors are for hiv. so if you're not infected and you avoid those risky behaviors, you don't need to be tested every day. this particular virus is not transmitted that way. there are studies now showing, several, and we been seeing clotting in tubing, we've been seeing clotting in covid infected patients, clots in their legs, some of whom have required amputations and large vessel clots causing streaks and emboli in the lung. we do know patients with clotting are producing a lot of other factors in coagulation, which is basically clotting disorders. it tells the medical profession there's so much more that we need to learn and that we learn

every day. so it's great so we can better understand and better treat patients. >> thanks to both of you, dr. ldr. dr. lipi roy and dr. vin gupta. yesterday i had the pleasure of speaking with vermont senator bernie sanders. we discussed the pandemic and the work he's doing to guarantee america a paycheck. i are to warn you, my mic wasn't right yet so the sound is a little funny but i thought it was valuable and want you to listen to it. >> we're trying to have this conversation about what happens say at the end of september when this emergency coronavirus relief that congress has done comes to an end, the added unemployment benefits come to an end, that $1,200 check will have run out. there are experts who are saying that we could be in this middle

state for some time to come. so what do you suggest we do now? you've been talking to people. you've asked them to e-mail you. i've asked them to e-mail me to tell me about their current situations and they are dire. they're not going to out of it by october, november or december. >> you used the word dire. i wish i could come up with a stronger adjective. it is horrible. horrible. we're hearing from people who have lost thereof joir jobs, th not money, they're hungry. it is the worst moment i think certainly in my lifetime for the american people. and what we have got to do is recognize that reality. and that means that we must take unprecedented action in the congress to protect the american people and we have got to do it now. and there are a number of things

that have to be done. i mean, we have talked about this before. i think we should do what europe is doing, guaranteeing every worker gets a paycheck. we should do what in fact exists all over the world and guarantee, especially in this crisis, that health care is available to all without out-of-pocket expenses. we should do what canada is doing and make sure that during the crisis people get a check every month for $2,000. we got to protect the postal service. in my state i'm worried about hunger. we have to make sure people in america are not going hungry. what we have got to recognize, there has never been, to quote you, a more dire moment in the modern history of this country, and we have got to act with boldness, we've got to act with compassion and we've got to protect the working families of this country. >> senator, we are unsix monder months away from a national election. for somebody like you who is

arguing both for big change on a permanent basis and big efforts right now, what's the way you get that to happen? because it's not entirely likely that a number of your republican colleagues in the senate are going to go along with what you're suggesting or even what senator schumer or senator harris or senator warren, you all have suggestions on what to do. is the answer in the election or is the answer in somehow convincing the president and senate now to expand government authority and expand government action? >> ali, i don't think it's either or, i think it's both. we cannot wait simply for a new president being in office in january. w we have got to put as much pressure as we can on republicans. and issue after issue, all of the polling i have seen suggest the american people are with us. they understand that it's insane that in america 20% of our children today are going hungry, that people are being evicted

from their amounts partments ore worried about affording their homes or mortgages. people want this big, bad terrible government that has been attacked for years. you no ewhknow what? they're beginning to catch on in a catastrophe the government is going to be there for them. we have to put as much pressure on mcconnell and trump to do the right thing. second of all, in my view, in this moment in american history we have got to reevaluate the basic infrastructural aspects of our society. how does it happen that millions of people who are losing their jobs are losing their health insurance? should we guarantee health care as a human right rather than as an employee benefit? how does it happen that half of our people before the pandemic were living paycheck to paycheck? do we need to move to more

income and wealth equality in america and end the incredible disparities on a class basis, on a racial basis that currently exists? so there is much to be, in my view, thought about in terms of moving to a new america with a different value system, a different set of priorities. >> a few weeks ago you and i were talking about a slightly different matter. there's health care, food and security and salaries and guaranteeing they will. there's this other issue that is coming into stark relief for americans and it's worker safety. we think we have laws. in workplaces we have signs up on the wall that tell you what you're entitled to, but in fact there aren't nearly enough safety inspectorinspectors, the enough teeth in the safety laws to be enforced and we are seeing more and more examples of people who cannot afford to not works are cannot afford to say to their players that they're not

going to go into work and subject themselves to possible safety and death. what do we say to workers now? >> you hit the nail on the head. the choice that trump is telling people, and these are lower income workers who are not going to work from home, often women and people of color. they're saying we don't want to give you nutritional benefits, we don't want to make sure you have the income you need, we're going to give you a choice. if you're going to live in financial desperation, you're going to get evicted from your home and not afford health care, that's one of your options. or the other option is you can go to work. and when you go to work, there may be a very high chance of likelihood that you'll come down with the virus. those are not the choices that the american people should be asked to face. what we should be doing is at this moment guaranteeing economic stability to every man, woman and child.

where we can open up the economy, we do it safely with the appropriate testing and social distancing. but the trump point of view is a very dangerous and cynical and i think an horrific approach to the crisis. >> that was senator bernie sanders of vermont. the massachusetts attorney general is leading an effort to revamp and improve the paychecks protection program. i'm going to speak to her next. you are watching msnbc. e watchic which is why when it comes to his dentures only new poligrip cushion and comfort will do. the first and only formula with adaptagrip cushioning technology. choose new poligrip cushion and comfort. my time is thin, but so is my lawn. now there's scotts thick'r lawn 3-in-1 solution. with a soil improver! seed! and fertilizer to feed! now yard time is our time. this is a scotts yard.

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two rounds of stimulus paycheck have gone out so far. massachusetts attorney general maura healey is asking congress for an overhaul of the program.

they the legislate to increase fair access to funding. joining me now is maura healey. you had a call-in town hall with small businesses. each of them have an aversion, i had a bank account for a long time, i don't know the bank manager. i somehow didn't get to the front of the line, couldn't figure out how to get it done, they had a million questions for my expert. i this i tnk the intent is good an execution problem. >> oh, yes.

there are 30 billion small businesses but less than 4 million have received assista e assistance. here what's fundamentally needs to happen. we need to make sure that truly small businesses that really are the fabric of so much of our economy get that relief right now. ppp is supposed to be a lifeline, but that's not actually happening, and that's why we've come forward with some really, we think, sensible recommendations so that the money gets where it needs to go. >> we ran out of that first $350 billion in two weeks. and it was full out, full bore when everybody got it. then we got this new amount of money. it has not run out yet. have there been improvements between the first round and the second round? and do you feel like you want the improvements made to this current round we're in? experts tell me we're going to need more than the $500 balanil,

we may need double that. >> here's what needs to happen, ali. we need to limit access to truly small businesses. no publicly traded company with access to other ways to get capital right now should be getting ppp. we also need to make sure we're targeting it towards small businesses by geography and also minority-owned businesses who are really hurting and haven't been able to access this money. we need to make sure there's better transparency about where the money is going and also communication. one of the come plants is thpla sba's portal is broken down. we need to support their portal so you can apply and track the application and the banks can have an easier time submitting those applications.

finally, we need better guidance. i've talked to a lot of banks and they've been frustrated by the lack of guidance from the sba. we got come planeplaints that s businesses who were preferred customers in that bank were able to jump the line. maybe through the sophistication with lawyers on retainer, they were able to get through. remember, the small businesses are really the ones we think are going to fuel a comeback. unfortunately as the program is currently designed, it isn't working. and they've got to make it more flexible. forcing employers to hire back people they've already laid off is very difficult. many of these people, particularly in retail and in the restaurant industry are already making more on

unemployment. they're not going to come back. if you've got high rents that you're facing, you need more flexibility. that's what we've got to give our small businesses. i really hope that congress takes up our recommendations. >> they're shared by a lot of americans. the businesses out near me, the small businesses that are struggling tonight have lawyers and accountants, they've got to just follow the rules to figure it out. the fact that they're e-mailing me to get my expert answer is telling me it's too complicated. maura healey, attorney general of massachusetts. >> great to you with you, ali. >> still ahead, the justice department is dropping the case about michael flynn. former president barack obama has something to say about that next. barack obama has something to say about that next i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret... ...i was cured.

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delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. this week the justice department decided to drop charges against president trump's former national security adviser michael flynn.

that announcement prompted a response from former president barack obama who expressed concern over the decision in a leaked audio recording on attend by yahoo news. meanwhile the filing released said the government is not persuaded the january 2017 interview was conducted with a legitimate investigative basis and therefore does not believe mr. flynn's statements were material, even if untrue, end quote. even if untrue. just put aside for a second that lying to the fbi is a crime regardless. joining me is frank fegluzzi. this story has flown under the radar because there are so many other things going on, especially with the coronavirus. give me your interpretation of what has happened here. >> ali, we need to pay very close attention to this. it's not only about the dismissal of flynn's charges but it's about what we're going to

see next. there's plenty of warning signs and indicators that we're going to see some very disturbing things happen with regard to the rule of law over the next few months. the attorney general has made a filing that is filled with distortions and half truths that are designed to deceive the court. he's saying things out of context. i've read it two or three times and i still can't believe that someone with a law degree has written this, someone who's a member of the bar. in fact, it was signed off by not an ausa but a u.s. attorney who did it so quickly that he used the wrong i.d. number when he signed off on the filing. so the attorney general is trying to say that you can lie to the fbi if it's not material. i get that. but what he's saying is this lie was not material to anything. guess what? the fbi had a counterintelligence case on flynn. they were trying to figure out if this guy poised to be the next national security adviser and had just become so actually post a threat to the nation. they were trying to see if he

would lie about his contact with the russian ambassador. guess what, he did. he admitted to it and pled guilty in court. that is material with regard to whether someone poses a threat with their relationship to russia. the attorney general seems to be riding shotgun on the trump train where he's try to dismantle the special counsel's work. what is under the skin? that raussia aided and interferd with the president's election. he had a call with putin. this week. he described to reporters what the call said, a lot of things might happen in the next months. this afternoon, ali, i don't know if you've seen it, the president has tweeted an article

from the "federalist" that claims this was all a conspiracy involving biden and obama to get trump. >> so there are two issues you bring up, both of which should be chilling. one is you're talking about barr riding shotgun, but the over politicization, the unprecedented politicization of the attorney general in support of the things the president does. then there's the trump unleashed against everyone he thinks has done something against him. that could be much broader. both of these are search prapar equally dangerous and alarming. >> the attorney general has not only destroyed the rule of law but also morale within the justice department. when you see assistant u.s. attorneys walk away from their cases, when you see the u.s. attorney himself in the district of columbia has to sign a filing because likely no one else would sign it, you know there's a

problem. when you heard the attorney general say weeks ago he believes the durham investigation, the u.s. attorney general up in connecticut is going to find there was an attempt to sabotage the president and his campaign, he's already come to his conclusion and ignored his own inspector jea general's findings. there's an empty period coming up where they're going to attempt to smear the former president obama and vice president biden, now an opponent in the campaign and you're going to see calls for grand juries. there will be a lot of ugly dlsh ug -- ugliness coming. >> frank, i always like talking to you but you and i have conversations that i just never imagined in my career i would be having and talking about. frank figluizzi is a national

security analyst. while millions of americans have lost their jobs, all hope is not lost. we'll talk about what could encourage optimism in the weeks ahead. you're watching msnbc. c.twork's, you're down. verizon knows your customers need to reach you seamlessly. your team needs to work from different places across many devices. plus, you want the security trusted by some of the largest companies in the world. and that's why you trust us. the most reliable network in america. if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. with roundup sure shot wand you don't need to stoop to their level. draw the line. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to pinpoint those pesky bedfellows. it lets you kill what's bad right down to the root,

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as you stay in. because now more than ever, home is where the heart is. cvs health. welcome back. while coronavirus pandemic continues to rage through hospitals and health facilities all over the country, the public health emergency is ravaging the american economy. "the new york times" had to get creative with its front page in order to show the unprecedented job losses. look at what happened. see the side of the page? that's how they had to show you how more than 20 million americans lost their jobs last month, driving the unemployment rate to its worst high since the great depression. joining me now, bill rogers, former chief of the unemployment office. it's an interesting starting point. it's not actually all the detail you need. there are bigger stories in

other numbers, the number of people whose jobs were lost. where those jobs are lost. as you and i have been talking about for well over a month now, the people most hurt by this are the people who are the least among us in society, the people who have the hardest time in getting to parity in terms of employment and wages. >> that's correct. and this report for april continues to show that. african-american unemployment rates were well above the national average. and the unemployment rate for latinos was higher than african-americans and people with no more than a high school degree or high school degree had big are increager increases. and moving beyond the unemployment rate, you saw one reason why the african-american may not have risen as much, the participation rate. to be unemployed, you're actively searching. you may have already had people saying i'm discouraged or i want to be safe because i don't think

my employer can provide the proper protections or that -- so i'm going to step out. so you saw participation drop for these groups, too. >> bill, with some of these things there can be structural fixes for them. but some of what's happening right now is the future that we know is coming slamming up against us. that is the difficulty that people without adequate training or adequate education are going to have. before coronavirus, we had a fairly robust employment situation in that there were shortages in some industries and surpluses in other industries but we couldn't match them because of training. in the new post-coronavirus world, lower skilled people and lower education people are going to have a harder time than they did before. >> well, especially if we have a swoosh type of recovery as opposed to the v-shaped recovery that the administration is promoting or thinking that's going to happen.

if it's a swoosh type of recovery, it's really going to be lagging because of american consumers not willing to get back fully in the game and so even though we're going open up restaurants, open up hotels and other service types of jobs or occupation, because of the new normal around social distancing or physical distancing, we're not going to get back to full capacity for some time. so those positions who are at the lowest part of the job ladder are going to be -- and what we're going to do, we're going to continue to see the swelling in the u-6 unemployment rate, that includes people who work full time but want part time. those are numbers i'm going to be watching as we move along this swoosh over the next few mont months. >> bill, hang on. i want to bring someone else into this conversation. gene sperling is a former

director of the national economic council under presidents obama and clinton. he's also the author of the enough book "economic dignity," available for purchase now. this was done before coronavirus but it's remarkably important, gene. there have been examples, we've seen them in europe. we've actually seen some of it with the grants that went to the airline and we've seen some version of it in the paychecks protection program, but we haven't gone as far as european countries have gone or even as canada has gone in terms of direct payments to individuals that last for the duration and the concept of doing everything we can to keep people on their company's payrolls with the benefits, particularly health care benefits that come along with that. you still leave the old system, you leave your job, apply for unemployment, struggle through that process and then apply for medical assistance to get your health care. you're suggesting we fast forward ahead to what other countries do. >> well, yes. i mean, this is both a

short-term issue and a long-term issue. in the short term we are certainly seeing that moment martin luther king talked about in 1968 where we realized the sanitation worker is as valuable or as essential to our health as the physicianand we'. and we're seeing that dissonance we have in the country that the people who are risking their lives for us, who as bill said are lower income, often minority, often women are some of the people that we give the least economic security to. so we have a short-term and long-term challenge as to whether we are going to protect their economic dignity. in terms of the types of programs you're talking about in which you had the attorney general of massachusetts on earlier, we have had a major trust problem. i think it's very good to both have unemployment insurance in this moment that gives people 100% replacement, but also to

help small businesses, even larger businesses if they are protecting their workers. if they're using it to keep them whole, to keep their health care -- connected to their health care. but what you're seeing is you have a complete breakdown of trust when it's not clear if it's unjust enrichment or large business who is just bought back stocks, it breaks down. you see the ppp break down not only in its effectiveness but it's hurt in keeping people in their jobs through employers and keeping them connected. >> some of the stuff you're talking about is emergency, some of it is long-term structural. but i don't know what the time span is between emergency because right now our programs go until about september or end of september, and normal, which could be two years plus away.

>> right. so, i mean, look, in terms of our recovery from this crisis, we need to do smart policies like have unemployment insurance or help to small businesses and definitely help the states link not to an arbitrary date or an arbitrary amount of money but to the health of the economy. these things should be automatically continued as long as we have double-digit or extremely high single-digit unemployment. and i this i thenk there's thine doing in this recovery that could be the basis for building a stronger economic safety net for the future. such as gig workers are eligible for unemployment insurance. that should be permanent. we started to give paid sick leave to so many because it's just appalling that nursing aides and home health aides that are risking their lives that 50% of them can't take a single day of paid leave off for their own

family. my hope is we have a better response for the essential workers but the first building blocks for us finally having a new new deal for the workers of our country. >> the name of your book is "economic dignity." it's very valid at this time. unfortunately i'm out of time but we will continue this conversation. gentlemen, thank you both. as people settle into their new normal of working at home, some are already calling for that to become permanent. we'll talk about that next. 'll t i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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all right, i think we primarily have to think of those people who don't have jobs, but for those of us fortunate enough to have jobs in this time of record unemployment the future of work and how it's going to get done remains uncertain. in mid-march as shutdown orders were escalating 31% of americans were working remotely. that number has since doubled according to a recent gallop poll. also 3 out of 5 workers saying they want to keep it that way even after the coast is clear. joining me now stewart butterfield, the co-founder and ceo of the tech communications company slack. many of you will use slack. i use slack a great deal. stewart, thanks for being here. i know a lot of people like i feel like a shut-in, but there are a lot of people in this country who commute like an hour

or an hour and a half to work or other reasons they work remotely, something a lot of companies couldn't get their head around. suddenly the future is upon us and it's a possibility. >> it's been really interesting to see. and as you said there's a distribution. there are some people going pretty bananas in a too small house and also negotiating for space with video calls when i have two kids and no child care and no school. others even if this is little different in a pan deppic as opposed to just working from home can see the possibility to get rid of the commute, to have the kind of freedom to come in and out to find a better balance and life work. it's going to be interesting to see how this unfolds. >> you are actively looking at this for slack. in fairness there are some companies that need physical contact with people, they need people in there, they're service

delivery companies. you are possibly a company that can do more of that, and you're actually thinking about making remote working, working from home permanent for a percentage of your workers. >> yeah. it might even be as big as everyone who wants to. i've been talking to a lot of other ceos and obviously no one has crestal balls, but we start to think about what does the office look like in a world where maybe 30% of people are working from home permanently and the other 70% have some kind of mixed arrangement, some days in the office, some days at home. probably fewer desks for people, a bit more flexibility and more gathering spaces so the office becomes a place where people come specifically to get together. >> i think it's a good idea. stewart, we don't have a lot of time for this conversation but i'd like to continue it with you because i think we're all now starting to think about the future of work and what it's like. stewart butterfield the

co-founder and ceo of slack. that does it for me for this hour. i'll see you back here tomorrow morning from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. for velshi the 9:00 hour a special edition focusing on the covid economy. we'll have a handful of special guests. we'll talk about how the food industry moves forward in the era of coronavirus. tune in. up next my colleague joshua johnson picks up our news coverage. a johnson picks up our news coverage how about no no uh uh, no way

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it is so good to be with you toop tonight, and there is plenty for us to talk about in the next two hours. the u.s. has more than 1.3 million confirmed cases of coronavirus. more than 79,000 people have died. it has been nearly 2 months since social distancing measures began. now dozens of states are starting to rekindle their economies. for many of us that cannot happen soon enough. the nation's unemployment rate is nearly 15%. that is the highest it has been since the great depression when it was almost 25%. meanwhile two white house aides have tested positive for coronavirus. unlike nearly are businesses in the country the white house does frequent covid-19 testing. so if the disease cannot be kept out of such a highly secured, highly surveilled workplace, what does that mean for the rest of us?

"the new york times" is reporting more fall